Hello and welcome to Elim church swanley, you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast here. Good afternoon. We're gathering back around our mics. We've got Steve valla with us today. We thank you so much for all the listeners around the world as we just jump in. We're going to go straight in we thank God for Steve's life, his ministry as he unpacked, we got three reference areas, I believe today for scripture. And the title of today's podcast is resisting the government with a question mark on the end. I think this is going to be a really good very deep discussion. And we will let Steve, just take us in Steve is good to see you, my friend. Thank you. We're ready to go. Let's get straight into the Scripture.
Steve:God bless you, everyone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amen.
Steve:I'm going to read three scriptures. Romans 13, one 7x, four, a 19 and x five, and x ray. It will be foreign, it won't just be 19. It was a couple of others, x four and x five. So anyway, right? So courses in Romans 13, let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God. And the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authority, resist the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a charity, good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority, do what is good and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is God's minister and Avenger to execute rests on him who practices evil. Therefore, you must be subject not only because of rest, but also for conscience sake. For because of this, you pay taxes for God's ministers attending continually to this very thing, randomly afford to all their Jew taxes to whom taxes on Jew customs to whom customs, fear term fear on a term honour
Reverend Ben Cooper:very interesting
Steve:we turn to x, it was that particular text that the Nazis liked to use when they were arresting Christians that was trying to Jews escape. And you read your Bible saying you're supposed to not?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, do not resist.
Steve:That's it right now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we're in acts,
Steve:acts;4 . Okay, the Peter john preaching Jesus. Yeah, and I get arrested. And the powers that be from verse 16. Say, what shall we do to these men? For indeed, a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem and we cannot deny it. But so that it spreads no further among people that are severely threatened them, that from now on, they speak to no man in his name. Oh, so they caught them and commanded them not to speak at all, or not teaching me Jesus. But Peter and john answered and said to them, whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God you judge for we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard. And then in Acts five,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. So we're in Acts chapter five, yet verses 28 and 29.
Steve:Bump, bump, bump, bump, bump,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we're gonna go
Steve:bump Bump, pick it up in 27. And when I brought them, they set them before the Council on the high priest asked them saying, did we not strictly come on you not to teach in this name. And look, you're filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood on us? Find out it already was, but any apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you murdered by hanging on a tree, him God has exalted to his right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are as witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who are by him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Right? So these free texts that were in here, it tells us clearly doesn't it to obey the authorities for their God and ministers? And then on the back end of this text that we just read in Acts, chapter five, verse 29, it says, Peter on the other apostles replied, we, we must obey God rather than human beings. So there comes a point, doesn't it? Yes. We know what that point is. I think we've reached that point of when certain areas of law
Steve:Yes, exactly right. certain areas of rule law, we are already resisting the government.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we are. Yeah,
Steve:you wouldn't marry to me? No. And so women, but the law says You can.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, that's right. Just the law. Yeah.
Steve:You would not support abortion, because whether people like it or not abortion is murder. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's sin. That's correct.
Steve:Yeah. I'm not talking about therapeutic abortion and standard or things like that. But yet these selective abortions or elective abortion shows, yes. It's, you're killing, you're killing kids. And if people don't like that, well, if I go and Robin, an eagle's nest, yeah, they pinch me for sight. And they'll say, an eagle is an endangered species, and you stopped an eagle from being born. But what look at the way they play, the Mickey Mouse game with children in the womb, is they are potential human beings. And that's essential is a change of
Reverend Ben Cooper:there's a possibility.
Steve:in that age, there is an eagle, but in that one stomach, there's only a potential here. So it's it's crazy and barbaric. It's crazy and barbaric. You're quite right. And so to some degree, we are already resisting.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yep.
Steve:The way we resist is shown to us an axe, it's to do with preaching the gospel. Yeah, we're not out on the streets. No, we don't take jump, you know, we don't build up the barricades. We are of a different kingdom. And we have to live in a different way. And our resistance has to be in a different way.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's not in a way of arrogance and frustration and anger. It's away. So as a minister of the gospel as we present the Word of God, and as we give God's word over biblical sound doctrine, it will be offensive to the Law givers Yes, there's no way around that.
Steve:And I want to say here that I also understand a great difficulty that Christians around the world are facing at the moment. We've got this business with Afghanistan at the moment. And we know that there's been several texts being put out about over 200 Christian ministry, and our missionaries are attacked for execution. We know that there's going to be a persecution of Christians out there for all the nonsense the Taliban talk about an our government to
Reverend Ben Cooper:weak
Steve:weak and the Americans are too weak to do anything about it. And essentially, at the end of the day, there probably will be round the table next week having a chat
Reverend Ben Cooper:your cup of coffee.
Steve:But you know, those that the simple fact is that if you ever look at some of the pictures that have been issued from Afghanistan, the strange thing is that you will find no pictures showing women on the streets. No children on the streets, you see these these big area geezers with a guns is
Reverend Ben Cooper:exactly what you see. So what they say and what they do is completely the opposite. Which
Steve:one of these models come out said you know, we will support women's rights under Sharia law. Well, yeah, well, I've
Reverend Ben Cooper:just seen, I've just seen somebody
Steve:say something on YouTube, some poor woman getting whipped under Sharia law. I don't know what she was getting whipped for, but probably somebody said that she was whatever she was, but so we as I say, we are already resisting. And the longer the time goes on, the more we will find ourselves. Yeah. I was pondering on some of this earlier on. And strangely enough, I think in some ways, the, the transgender and the LGBTQ RSI VBA, is it's been I, the way I view it is that it's a ploy put up by Satan. Yeah, because the strange part about it, there was a thing. There was a thing recently about an American, it's been over for a while, and he goes out on the streets and he preaches, and of course, he's preaching the gospel. He's preaching about sin. And as he goes through and annotates these the sin of course, is homosexuals a sin when I see
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, that's, he's in trouble.
Steve:Yeah, I mean, it's a murder is a sin as liars say, homosexuals. And I never realized that, you know, the government was so worried about sinners prosecute people that say anything against them. I'm
Reverend Ben Cooper:its a set up
Steve:but I think it's a setup. Yeah, I think he's just set up for several reasons. One, the churches failed to address any area of sex
Reverend Ben Cooper:for a long time for a lot many generations.
Steve:Yeah, like swept under the carpet. It was a lot. It's a lot of these cases. We did turn around corners, and I'm not talking about you young men. But they've been up to as much kiddy fiddling
Reverend Ben Cooper:we have far does this go back? Well, it goes back.
Steve:I mean, you've got a situation with a pope. Yes. forgiving
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah
Steve:bishops and priests and all sorts of stuff for all the stuff. They're doing
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And that's only the stuff that's been brought to light. Yes. As to what happened? How many? How many have just been pushed under the carpet disregarded and uncountable,
Steve:a lot of these judges or you've been a naughty boy? Yeah, you know, you're you're deserving prison time. But I'm gonna I'm gonna let you go.
Reverend Ben Cooper:little secret handshake,
Steve:secret handshakes. And you don't know, you know, you don't know. All the things that go on? No, but you know, it might I say it's, the other thing about is that going back to the the arrest of a particular American preacher, is that they held him for 10 hours. And they, they put him through a half an hour with a psychiatrist. But from what I've read, it wasn't so much that the psychiatrist was quite there, trying to find out if he was off his jump, but trying to get him out of so yeah, well, I was a bit wrong. The Russian shouldn't Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay.
Steve:But the strange part about it in recent times whenever a preacher has been arrested,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah,
Steve:he's either let go after he's been taken down to the police station might. We got to lock you up for a while. And we'll let you do it again. So now push off with it mirrors And the other thing is what normally when they've appeared before a big Yeah, the plight of the breakers looked down and said, what our necks broken any laws so on you, this is
Reverend Ben Cooper:off he goes
Steve:superflous is this is this is a waste of my time.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:But obviously, there's going to come there's going to
Reverend Ben Cooper:be stricter and stricter what you can say
Steve:what they will do is that they will need to manipulate the law which they're doing at the moment with regards to this hate speech, just about to say that hate speech so that they can basically accuse you of anything.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yeah. Repentance, when we are talking about repentance, he won't be able to talk about anything regarding that because it will be hate speech. And you will be banged up and put away for that we can see that coming down there. Basically scripture and we must expect it because of the end times and persecution. So that so we understand the law, the driving laws are good. Then there comes a law above that doesn't there. It keeps us safe on the road.
Steve:So the problem is when these people are paddling in the pond of moral or immoral or is God's law.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Exactly.
Steve:its not mans law
Reverend Ben Cooper:no
Steve:man. Come on. Thank you. So I think what you're talking about with regards to Romans, yeah, when man has got a man's law? Fine. Yeah. When he starts putting in a play your taxes pay your customer. Yeah, you know it all this bloke. Fair enough. But when they start peddling and upon the moral law, no, sorry, pal. you're you're you're coming into my kingdom now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's right. They they
Steve:Kingdom I live in
Reverend Ben Cooper:the Kings domain. The Kings don't. You're trespassing. Yeah, yeah. It's the wrong way around. Yeah. You're You're the one in trouble not me that the devil switches it though doesnt he. And that that's what it's about.
Steve:basically, I think what, what we with regards to our ongoing resistance, because that's what it is we we've got to look that we are already resisting.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Hmm.
Steve:So what is going to be the ongoing resistance
Reverend Ben Cooper:policies? laws, as you said against speech against the Word of God?
Steve:Yeah. Our ongoing resistance has to be we have to be as wise as serpents.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Steve:That's where we need to go. And we are in desperate need of guidance by God. Yeah, because we, first of all, must honor God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that is all the way for our life. That is that is prime that is number one, for honoring God.
Steve:honouring god, We don't always do that because of the way we live, isn't it we are sinners, and we fail in that regard. But if the heart's desire is to honor him, then he will bring us to that place of wanting.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You made a really interesting point, honoring God when we look at those that got arrested in the New Testament, including Christ. Oh, they wasn't fighting, kicking and screaming, was they? No, no, no, no, they was honoring God, all even Christ was honoring God, the scriptures had to be fulfilled. So we don't see anyone resisting and kicking and pushing and punching. The only time we really see that is when he cuts his ear off it. There's a bit of a scuffle in
Steve:the garden. And he, Jesus, he was the guy is just put up sword. So yeah, I mean, I again Christian history is replete with wars. You know, you read the Bible different from me, I'm gonna kill you. That that still goes on over the airwaves. And this there is tremendous hatred. Yeah, you don't read your Bible the way I read it. So I've got it right to hell.
Reverend Ben Cooper:in the love. Love though steve, you got to finish it off with Corinthians, you're gonna rot in love in the name of Jesus. Interesting. Good stuff.
Steve:It's an and this need of wisdom. Whilst it's good to look back at our brothers and sisters that have gone before us, and understand the wisdom that God has spoken to them with regards to the Scriptures, we also have to understand that we are now living in a different time was this during Wesley's time before? He was allowed to, to preach properly under license? He was pursued by the ecclesiastical author.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Steve:There were people that didn't like him. And I think that I are not one, I think there might be more than one of his followers actually killed. And, and so really, we have been in a position in this country for from, let's say, 1800, for an easy date, up to say about 1980. Where we have had the privilege of being able to preach the gospel. Yeah, freely without persecution. Yeah. The fact that we haven't preached the gospel properly. Well, that's neither in it. That's, that's up to God to judge Yes, we can't go back and change the way things are. What we have to do now is, is understand God is in complete control of what's going on. So therefore, that's why it is necessary for us to go to him and say, Lord, you've you've made this occur, you have brought this about? What is it that you want us to do in this? How is it that you want us to be in what may not have been this? But how is it that we should resist? Can you use the word goose The idea was the understanding. And it's very much this idea of, for instance, out in places like Vietnam, Christians approach gripe, they're not allowed to meet but like, no. So they actually go against take our game or go against the law of Vietnam. Yeah, same as China. They go against the law. And when they call, they actually submit to the authority. So yeah, you got me, so you're gonna have to lock me up or kill me or do it. So I'm going to submit your I'm not going to fight back. I'm not going to try and kill you. I'm going to submit to your law, I'm going to face the penalty that Paul talks of in Romans, you know, you'll face a parent, you know, you go against your authority, and you'll face the penalty. And we have to understand that by going against it, is we will have to face the penalty of the law.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we've seen a very, very slight glimmer of this havent we. This this the old preacher, the older guy that was preaching on the steps a few weeks ago. Yeah, on the ladder. Yeah, that got dragged off, dragged off for preaching. So there's glimmers of it isn't they're coming? Very, very gently come in. And once it starts to pick up speed, it will suddenly be upon us. Yes. It will be suddenly it will be
Steve:Yeah. We again, with regards to what's going on, we here. have to keep a weather eye as to the changing conditions in in all countries. Yeah. Obviously, for us in the United Kingdom, we have to consider our position and as a safe, seek the Lord we can't, we cannot back off from preaching the gospel. No, from Living the Gospel.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So all the days of our lives, we are going to be resistant to a degree as we are always as soon as we become born again believers. Yes. And we are choked. And we realize that this is the life he expects of me. This is when we start in certain areas and policies living against what the authorities want.
Steve:Yes, I think we can we can see people might see it from a different from a different point in history. But for me, this began at the time when David Steele got the abortion law through into the House of Commons. Okay, which is I can't remember how many years ago for whatever it was because he wanted to stop backstreet abortions. They brought in this the abortion law so that people could go to hospital and have a safe abortion. Yeah, so as soon as he brought that in. He opened the floodgate, Christians. Well, no Christians became
Reverend Ben Cooper:oh okay, i see what you are saying, yeah, yeah. sure.
Steve:point of that resistance of the law. And that's been building up. Yeah. And so now we find ourselves there will be law changes, and we will be more and more moved out to the fringes of society. Yes. And probably like your old Nero. did will get blamed for all the fires that carry on. its all their fault.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's all their fault. Yeah, Christians. In places we'd be all right. We'll be right. Romans 13. Steve has brought up a really interesting from in straightaway, just in first one we could spend forever on a day. In Romans chapter 13, verse one, it says, Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established, the authorities that exist have been established by God.
Steve:That's right. And whether they accept it or not, yes, they, when they step into that area or authority here, they are now subject to God's judgment, apart from being a sinner, which is one aspect which they have to do. Yeah, now they've taken on the mantle of authority. Yeah, they are now going a step before God, to for howsoever, that judgment comes about because we, you know, we talk about how it is that people will be thrown in the fire, so on and so forth. But there's lots of observations from various theologians, if you look through Scripture, there seems to be a level of punishment. Or, you know, when it's when we're when God talks about, you know, if you've caught one of these, that one's too soon, it'd be better that you add a millstone tied around your neck and be thrown in the ocean, or so there appears to be a level in God's kingdom and His judgment is more severe. Yeah, whilst everybody is under the judgment of God or under the rest of God, if they are not under the blood of Christ, there comes a point where you are now being held accountable for other things
Reverend Ben Cooper:for other human beings, the way that you lead them. Yeah, yeah. So there's accountability. I wonder it so this, this, what we're reading here, and what you're telling us is very clear, has been put into position by God. And we know that there will be many politicians out there that are completely against this, and they'll just laugh at this. But then you've got the Christian politicians what a mix that is, that are trying to bring godly laws, godly areas of life to the Houses of Parliament, that must be so difficult. Every almost every footstep is going to be opposing the party that you're in.
Steve:It it's I think, probably I might be wrong. But I think the last Christian Prime Minister we had in this country was Gladstone. Really, he was laughed at because of some of these, you know, he used to go out and try and say foreign women on the streets of London and he was laughed at and God stuff and he was a I mean, it'd be if he had to lead the country through very difficult times. And if we have a look at all the Prime Minister's subsequent to and I don't, I might be wrong, but I don't think there are any of them that you could actually look at and
Reverend Ben Cooper:say that was a Bible believing standing on the Word of God and
Steve:I can't think of really any
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, Boris become a Catholic Cutler with few months ago, so I could get married. So you could count just a game of chess. It says yeah, it's gonna fit my lifestyle. Go back to the Church of England. What did the king do, he chained it game of chess for it will fit him. Yes, it is. It's what we see, isn't it? It's what we see they change it to fit them.
Steve:I mean, I'm glad I'm not God. I don't have to sit in judgment and repeat what I said. This is the problem not mine.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's his cup of tea. That's not my word. But it makes it very clear in Romans 13 let everybody be subject to the governing authorities. So
Steve:further dennis is there he's ministers there his ministers are going to be subject to a judgement as extra
Reverend Ben Cooper:extra
Steve:he said your You are my ministers. I put you in place you failed.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So let Okay, let's take this analogy so that the authorities have been put in place by God we get that we see that but when the authority comes away from God's word that releases us from now because if they can't be called is complicated, isn't it because they can't be his ministers. If they are not given his life?
Steve:Well, no, no, no, there still his ministers
Reverend Ben Cooper:So this is complicated So, so right, let's backpedal. So God has put these people in place. God has put the authorities in place, even if they are not godly, and they are godless. Every one of them has been appointed and put in place by him. Yes,
Steve:exactly. Right. That's exactly right. If you go to Daniel four the nebia, conyza, yes. God rules over the kingdoms of men. Yes. And he gives it to whomever he pleases, yet he gives it to the least of men
Reverend Ben Cooper:is actually to the least of the least of men. Yeah.
Steve:I mean, I saw it too. I just want to read Psalm 82. And this is talking about the don't want to go into a great deal of it. But this is talking about the fallen angels, whether they were formed at the time of the appointment is debatable, but they were the ones that were given to shepherd the nations. Yeah. All right, we go back to Deuteronomy 32. And we see they're mostly saying, it divided the kingdom according to the sons of the kingdom of God. This is what it says, God stays in the congregation of the mighty he judges among the gods. How long will you judge unjustly show partiality to the wicked? defend the poor, and fathers do justice to the afflicted and needy, deliver the poor and needy, freedom from the hand of the wicked? They do not know nor do they understand a walkabout in darkness, all the foundations of the earth are unstable. I said, You are gods. Remember, Jesus said that. And when he was gassed, poke at the fellows
Reverend Ben Cooper:having a little dig?
Steve:Yeah, you are an all of you are children of the Most High, but you shall die like men and fall out one of the princes. Now, I'm a man and I'm going to die like a man I don't have to be told I'm going to die like a man. These people here, these are appointed ministers. Angels that fell, yeah, part of the second rebellion will Serbian. And God has put them in charge. And they failed. And they failed. He failed. And because the last races arise, oh, god judged the earth, for you shall inherit all nations.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Wow.
Steve:And so this this when when God brought about when he when he put the earth in a being And when He created man. He gave Man, these understandings, these laws, these moral game, his moral compass, if you like, yeah. And it kicks it over and over and over time after time after time after time, we all do it. We all do. And we're all children of wrath at some point. So we all every single one of us have kicked that moral compass over. God and His grace and mercy sent me some that we might believe in him or her and
Reverend Ben Cooper:we Yeah, amen
Steve:forgiven, And until the crack of doom. And if people choose to reject it, then they're gonna have to put up with it. We're going to put up with God's judgment when we get when we get down. Yeah, you know, lots of reggae coming back and all this. Okay, I mean, I, I was just in with someone on Facebook the other day, and I was talking about how is that religion is caused more deaths than anybody else? I want to know. So when you Okay, Matt, say Tom, he killed 40 40 million. Within a four year period, Stalin killed between 20 and 60 million in their account, if 11 million Pol Pot, he only killed 2 million. But that was a quarter of the country. So yeah, and that was only in the 20s 20th century. Next, what are all the things that went on out in South America? So all these religions about a problem he's on? And he comes to me? When I've done it seems like yeah, I'm arguing against the values,
Reverend Ben Cooper:our way we go kind of values.
Steve:But when I just go back and said, Yeah, well, you know, I've got a problem with what you're saying, Mike. All I would say to you is what I've said many, many people in the past is I've been where you are, but you ain't never been where I am. So, yes. All right. busy. You know, give me all this business god aint real. Well, we all been there. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, I've been there. tried it and done it. Don't work. Nothing's real. Yeah. Yeah, no, it Yeah.
Steve:You know,the changed life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Steve. Yeah. Just thought of something. Right. These these authoritarians that have been put in position. And also we notice in a lot of politics and areas of authority, we see a lot of Masonic activity, eyes. So God has placed them in position. Yes. Then we come back to that old chestnut. We talk about choice.
Steve:Yeah, I mean, God, God put someone in a place of authority. Right. Yeah. Negative canoes are in a place of authority. started striking stuff. So look at what
Reverend Ben Cooper:I've done. I'm a clever chap look. So that's where it comes in.
Steve:Precisely and like
Reverend Ben Cooper:arrogance and pride, arrogance and pride.
Steve:Yeah, I can do as I please and so on so forth. Yeah. Nebuchadnezzar, if people would understand you are in a position of authority is a warning. Yeah, he is a warning he was. I mean, if you will, if you will have it like that king of Babylon. Yeah, he was Satan's mouthpiece on on the earth. Yeah. Right. And he, Stan, so what a great champion is an award watching said, Now you're going to spend seven years out there like an animal?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Now, he comes to his senses, realizes what happens. Rice is wonderful. prayer of thanksgiving, an honoring of God. And as you read that, you kind of think yourself, I think I'm gonna see Nebuchadnezzar in the kingdom when we get there. And he is a warning to the things about the Bible when you read it or not. It really doesn't make an awful lot of difference. It's been written, it's been established. Yeah. And if someone's that turns turns out before goes, Yeah, well, I never read that your ignorance in
Reverend Ben Cooper:the law is no excuse. Oh, is there? it? Was
Steve:it was there cost? Yeah. And you, you know, somebody there would have told you at some point about the Lord and you rejected him. So, you know, you're gonna have to put up with it. Yeah. And so when we have this situation of these ministers, if they have failed in their duty, or they have abused their position.
Reverend Ben Cooper:and led the nation astray, yeah. What judgment is going to be on those that that have been placed? And what about the other King? Was it so it was so was an eight, correct me if I'm wrong, were they? It was a time of judges when they, when they were saying we want a king. We want a king we want to give him give us him? Give us a give us so yeah. You want him? Yeah, give us him? God gave? He did. And then trouble started. And I went,
Steve:well, God was the king. Yeah, they were not supposed to have a human.
Reverend Ben Cooper:An earthly being
Steve:was God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. But they wanted to representation
Steve:They wanted a man representing them as a king. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:it all went wrong.
Steve:And it all went wrong.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And God gave them what they wanted. Then they blamed him, then they
Steve:If you have this king, he's going to take your sons off to war, he's going to marry your daughters, he's going to do this he's going to do that is going to he's going to do more taxes. You know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'll tell you what, let's have him.
Steve:Yeah, that's exactly what I said.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And they got what they wanted.
Steve:I mean, in some ways, strangely enough, when output without pushing it too far saw is a type of the Antichrist. Yeah, you know, you end up with what you want.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. You know, and it's interesting that God gave that. Yeah, even knowing knowing what he knew what was going to happen, is he still we still want to see this thing. God warned them that he still wants this is what's going to happen. Do you still want this?
Steve:You still want? Yeah, we still want it, we want to and that will, that will happen? Also, I think that will come out more explicitly when the Antichrist is revealed. Because you've got the Two Witnesses standing. And they're going to be standing there and saying, Listen, this man is the one that's going to lead you astray. He's going to take you straight to hell. Yeah. And you're going to be preaching for three and a half years. there's going to be no excuse,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no clear warning,
Steve:very much.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So I think there's a warning on the earth now. Just for the signs and the things that are happening and anyone that calls them a bubble calls themselves a Bible believing believer will have this feeling within them or on upon them thinking this is very strange times, very challenged amount of
Steve:wildfires There are over the place. Every time I pick up here's one in the southern Greece Jerusalem just always there was one in Jerusalem wildfires in Jerusalem
Reverend Ben Cooper:Steve now the government's that is global warming. I haven't you read the news. You know, you know that if we can save the planet, we can save the planet
Steve:without going into the science. There's an even bigger problem coming up. it's to do with the currents. Yeah. But yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's dont use your deodorant anymore. Don't buy diesel.
Steve:Now all I can say is that those running polar bears must use be used an awful lot to get the all the ozone layer up just above us. Just you know, that was just in the north pole werent it? Yeah, yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I don't know. We get caught them we as human beings the same again. The ministers Yeah, it comes back to where do we get all this information from the ministers given us the information.
Steve:this is the point you see, the thing is that if we go Back to those 70. Or the the fallen angels or the angels, I don't necessarily know fallen at the time, but the angels that were put over the 70 nations who rebelled, which is spoken of in in Psalm, which we've just read, and the various underlings that like they probably would have had, which make up a great deal of the foreign realm. They know what their job is, they've already been judged, according to the Word of God, but they don't change the way they are. They are completely sold out to Satan. And there is no way no way back then. No, of course not. No, no, there's no, no, God makes no provision for salvation for angels. They're eternal beings. And so we've they, then corrupt men, reality bait is already in a fallen condition, and desire, you know, when when the enemy comes along and offers something he's offering something man wants anyway,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, it's already fallen to come to it anyway. Because he goes after his own lust. Yes, each man is drawn away by sex. So
Steve:when you when the tempter comes on and says, you know, come on, look. I want that I'll listen. That's why men are responsible for their actions. You know? You can't say it was the devil. So he's got his own problems when it comes to like Feist.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's gonna be quite warm. Yeah. So it's really interesting this, because we talk about politicians, but the scripture says ministers? Yes, yes, yes, yes. So it's changes and it's changed over time. Come away from the Word of God. God has put them in place. I wonder how many politicians ministers are in within the UK that realize that God has put them into this authority into this area? I'd love to know what the process is for someone being Can I use sworn into the Houses of Parliament? what the process is taken
Steve:to the coin?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, I'd like to know what that is process. Interesting.
Steve:I remember back in the day when Neil Kinnock was sworn in, when he when he took his house in the House of Commons. And either he wouldn't swear on the Bible, or he wouldn't take the oath to the queen or somesuch the outcome of what it was, like, like ducks and Drakes with it. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, it's changed over the years. But you we can't get away from the fact that the Scripture is right. He can't add you can't take away and it says God's ministers, ministers.
Steve:Yeah, yeah. Whoever you whoever is in any area of authority within the kingdoms of men. Yeah. They are, whether they like to acknowledge it or not, they are under the command of God. Now the fact that they choose not to obey Him, yeah, that gives that showed you the the fact that God has given them freewill. Yeah, it doesn't make them puppets. He doesn't force them to do something. He warns them. He's warned them through the Bible. Look, if you do this, this is going to happen. Yeah. Basically, they say I don't give a toss. I'm off. I'm gonna do what I want to do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I want to I want to ask for cash. Yeah.
Steve:And this is it, but that they will face this. Yeah. You know, when they get before the throne, God will take Romans 13. And so by the way, did you read this? Did not know by what it was.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It was it was the conservatives it was flaming it down the channel is really interesting scripture, actually. And there's so much that to pull from this. And I'm going to read it again. Romans 13 verse one. And he says, Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities for there is no authority except that which God has established. Again, this was one of the reasons why many Americans could not get their head around.
Steve:That God had not answered their prayer when they when he might, Joe Biden, Pres. Yeah. And Donald Trump lost it? Yeah. I've got my own observations on that. But however it works, it's God who's in control. God is the one who put Joe Biden where Joe Biden is nobody else nobody else not the company might have been Devoters. But it was God orchestrated. God's plan, Joe Biden, he's gonna go now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, and the next one after him and so forth. God has these people in position ready to take over because the Scripture tells us that God's authority God has put them there. But over the generations where the God the Word of God has been pushed out man thinks that he's created this world. This may miss its Mayor on on the great politician that I'm the leader, but comes back tonight. to Scripture, we always comes back to the Word of God, the authorities that exist, have been established by God. Even that line there will throw so many people in a spin on it. The atheist politicians, how dare you? Yeah, I'm not here because God God does not exist, it would cause an absolute eruption wouldnt it.
Steve:For the Christian, that is a salutary warning,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it is a very stark warning,
Steve:personally speaking. I won't be a politician for tea in China.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I know, I find it very difficult this this time in which we live, how to be a Christian politician in the environment that we're living in, because everything seems the boy is coming against your belief.
Steve:Oh, yes. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It'll be great to actually chat with a solid, Bible believing believer that is in the world of politics. How do you survive with the things that are going on?
Steve:Don't even I noticed there are several MPs that say they're Christian or not they're born again? I don't know. That's between them. And God? I don't know any of them well enough to comment and assessment. But no, I, I think seriously, you have to understand,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yes.
Steve:That when you go into politics, you are being called into it. Now. Whether you accept that whenever you accept it or not, it's God calling you into that place.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And, and that really is really pushed to my heart today. Ministers yields God's ministers, ministers, yes. And you have a responsibility of leading this nation, whatever nation, the people, the mums, that that's the children into areas of correct living, you are responsible very much. And when that is the opposite to what God wants, as you said earlier, about how it reference different areas of Raff and the different the severity of if you are an atheist, and you are coming against God's word, whether you like it or not, God has called you and put you in place. There is going to be some judgment upon you. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that is quite frightening.
Steve:I mean, Jesus, in many ways actually. affirm this. If you remember when the Pharisees were talking about paying taxes to CS Yeah. And he asked for the coin. He said, whose head is on coin? Yeah, you know, Caesars will render unto Caesar. What is Caesar's Yeah. give unto God or render unto God, that was his gods. Basically, he affirmed the fact that Caesar is entitled to his taxes. Yes, he's always entitled to this. This belongs to Caesar. So give it to Caesar. Do what you're supposed to do
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And what is God give God?
Steve:Yeah, I mean, that in itself, Jesus was saying, Look, I'm in charge of the politicians, that is world, I don't get involved in party politics, and try and draw me into it. I've established these people. Cesar is there because my father has put him there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And also that that was that script. My, my mind is absolutely racing. When, when Christ is in front of his pilot, he says, and pilot says, I have power or authority to rule and Jesus went, well, actually, I love that. I've, you've only got the power because it's it's been given to you. And that changed his way didnt it. Well, that was a point. I believe when he changed his presentation to Christ. You've only got the power because it's been given from above.
Steve:certainly shook him up without doubt. But I mean, it still says in one of the Gospels that he became friends with Herod or neck, Diane, like been at loggerheads prior to that day. So even if Pilate and even Pilate had warned him that she had a dream about Jesus,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah, it has nothing to do with him. Yeah.
Steve:But still he went away and did what he wanted to do. politician.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I'll do what I wanted. Yeah,
Steve:I'll get me votes. Yeah, go on to paper screenname you'll make yourself an enemy of Caesar. Yeah, hang
Reverend Ben Cooper:on a minute. Give us give us Coronavirus Yeah, same again the people are calling out and he has given them what they want. But he had his eyes must have locked eyes with Christ and the way Christ delivered that you only have power because it's been given to you from above imagine that stare that look that that burning look of Christ down the eyeball to eyeball and every politician throughout the whole world. Yeah, okay with result? Yes, government officer is a, you know, King of France. Wherever, wherever he is. He's been put in place by God. Yes, he at some point will answer to God for his actions. That's heavy. That is and it's the same for preachers and teachers and for anyone that calls themselves and
Steve:this is why we have to be careful. And this is why I say we are in desperate need of wisdom from Law Yeah, of this area of resistance less we end up fighting against God Himself. Yeah, very true. You know, we might sit there or sort of religious and waving it waving our finger. But at the end of the day God has put that let me now. Yeah. And when Jesus was walking on the earth, and they want to make him king and he's preying on him and I adore this Nasus, calm lightly, yeah, the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdom as well. Odin is Christ. And so we have to be very, very careful how we conduct ourselves in resisting, yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:whatever government is doing. That's right. That is That is very true, very what Scripture is truth. So that is very important, but when, but when we have a very powerful leadership team within a nation that are clearly clearly against the word, then it releases me to a degree. And I have to make a very wise and very sound decision of saying, okay, God is putting them in place. And they should be bringing God's Word to this nation. But they're not yet. So it's not the unresisting God is because they're not delivering what should be delivered. Yep. I take my stand as a believer.
Steve:Yes. And it's at that point there are in need of wisdom from God is how do you how do you
Reverend Ben Cooper:what's the word I'm saying, you know, obey, but, but you're obeying God, but you're also being loving.
Steve:How do you know I'm thinking this? How do you comport yourself? Oh, how do you comport yourself when you're put in that position? Yeah, cuz you've got to make sure that you are honoring God. Yeah. in all aspects. Yeah. Yes. You're resisting. And yes, you will submit when when they come along, say, Yeah, okay. Being we're gonna lock you up. You know, you don't pull out second, cut it off. You know, you're you're so now come early. I'll do that. I'll come along, and you can get by me up. Yeah. I said, I'm submitting to your authority. Yes. Um, you know, the fact is that you're against what God is saying, Yeah, you're gonna have to deal with at some point in the future. But yeah, okay. You don't like what I'm saying. You don't like what I'm doing? You're going to bang me up. Okay. Fair enough.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's a very thin, thin tightrope. It is very, very fragile, really, isn't it? It's very difficult, very difficult. And it's,
Steve:it's much more difficult for people that are living under a violent regime. The situation in Afghanistan at the moment, also in Nigeria, I mean, in Nigeria, there's something kicking off out there, they're talking about people should arm themselves and stuff like that. And there's been a great deal of failure on the government to look after Christians when the the Fulani tribesmen have come in to kill him, and the Islamists have come over the border, and taking the children away and stuff. It's, it's extraordinarily difficult, it is not easy. It is also very well we sit in so you shouldn't be doing this. But everybody, you see, this is why everybody has to really seek God in their own life
Reverend Ben Cooper:in your eye on.
Steve:Yeah, I can't sit here and wait my finger, and someone being banged up in China. So we've got to submit to the authorities. And I can say, because that's what the scripture says. But how they work it out. They must know that under God, yeah. So you have to know what God is saying to them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's an individual moment. Yes. No one else can wake the finger. No, not at all. No, no, no, no one else can is literally between you and God. Yes. And us asking God, God, I need Godly counsel and wisdom to guide me through this car crash. That is happening all around. I mean, if we, for instance, if
Steve:we go to pizza, alright, yeah, you remember when they locked Peter up? Yeah. And he he was going to be executed in the commons setting free? Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:let him get up. Let's go
Steve:prison. It was in a prison break. He was in prison. Right. He was come out. He said he got frozen breaking the door now when the guards were executed. But the heat effectively broke the law because he broke
Reverend Ben Cooper:for a little while.
Steve:Yeah, but Yeah, I know. We're laughing. But again, this comes down to wisdom, understanding what God is saying in any given situation here and the more difficult things become for us as Christians, the more is needed for the work for the wisdom of God. That's not how we ought to act.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's it, how we act within a nation wherever we are across the world. Does this government that I'm in wherever we live Is it following the laws and the Word of God? Or is it doing whatever it wants to do? Well, I think we will find I think we will come to some agreement quite easily that to find a government that is leading has they as they should do by the word of God, is that anywhere? Is there anywhere out there?
Steve:I mean, is there anywhere on a Chromebook, tried it with a bare bones partner, and that didn't work.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So all of us around Planet Earth are in the same position to a degree is that I am actually coming against this minister of God. But we know their ministers are God, but they're not they're not living and not bringing God's word. So there comes a very fine line of as you as you said, Steve, of I've got to seek God. Yes. Because God
Steve:tells me I have to obey the authorities. Is that it clear? All right. And I've got to give honor where honor is due, but by the same token, I am told by God, that there are certain areas of life that I cannot be part of. I cannot say that what is bad is good. Yes. What is dark is like, I can't do can't do that. I can't do that. And so it might be that the resistance to the point of death if That's so mean, practices, it's gonna you're not resisted, seen until the spilling of blood? Basically, you ain't dead yet.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Gosh, you know what, stay we've had a real good, good dive into the Word of God as you as you always do. You're taking us in you. You kept us there, you brought us back out. So this is a really interesting subject. So we really would appreciate any comments coming back. If you need to find Stevie's easy to find. The police are looking for more time. And the authorities are looking for all the time. It's possible. You know, we thank you so much for everyone listening around the world. You know, there's been 50 free minutes today. We've been we've done this podcast The time has absolutely flown by. We have been in the New Testament. We've been in Romans chapter 13. We've been Acts chapter four, Acts chapter five. Steve, I believe is read from Psalms as well. We've really had a good insight. But what an interesting subject. God's ministers automatically we think of preachers and teachers. There we have the authorities.
Steve:And this is relevant to every Christian on the planet now,
Reverend Ben Cooper:right now, because
Steve:of the way things are going. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. We asked one thing of you keeping the Word of God, that's where we find the wisdom Steve, thank you so much. God bless y'all. Catch you next week. God bless. Take care stay safe.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.