Hello, and welcome to Elim church swanley, you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast yet we welcome you in today, wherever you are we thank you so much for joining us where we're Steve, today we're around the mics were in our new little temporary room as we just have a bit of work done. So there might be a bit of a back echo. But if you can just bear with us for the next few weeks, as we get all this stuff done, we want to thank you for all those that are downloading this glorious stuff that we are pushing out in every way shape and form. We thank God for His His word, we thank God for Steven as we just gonna open up a real big, big subject. And just the title of this, this podcast is can almost be fairly enough on its own Steve has got laced with some text, I'm going to be pretty quiet for this because this is a very interesting subject. And I'm I'm not schooled in this at all. And the title of the podcast is the grave and the fiery judgment. Steve, welcome.
Steve:Good. Afternoon,
Reverend Ben Cooper:good afternoon. We're in we thank you for your time and coming and sharing all this stuff all the way from wherever I go all the way from the other side of the road. Yeah, you know, it's good that we can gather around this and these mics and just listen. So I'm going to listen, Steve's gonna take us in, and by the power of the Holy Spirit, God will continue to teach him to reveal through revelational knowledge, His Word to each and every one of us. So Steve, take it away, okay.
Steve:Again, worth repeating, which I've said many times when we've done this, this is not exhaustive. It is illustrative of under my understanding of our own understanding the scriptures, we could be wrong. But we approach this as best we can in the grace of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amen.
Steve:And I want to look at the difference between the grave or hell, and the fire of judgment, and there tends to be a misunderstanding, or a mixture in the church between the two. And I want to start by reading revelation 2714 show that there is a distinct difference.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay. Yeah.
Steve:So it is now when the 1000 years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to the suitor nations which are in the four corners of the earth gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the center of the sea. They went up on the breakfast of the earth, and surrounded the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured, the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire, and brimstone with a beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away. And there was found no place for him. And I saw the dead smaller and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the Deadwood, judged, according to their works, by the things which were written in the books, the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and death and Hades or Hell is is in some translations develop, delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged each one according to his works. The Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, and anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Over the years, people have looked at this whole area of hell. And as I say, got it mixed up with that and the fiery judgment. The other thing also is that there are people that don't want to accept that this fiery judgment is eternal.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yep.
Steve:But the Scripture is very clear that it will be forever and ever. How that works out in God's economy is God's problem, not mine, so I don't have to worry about it too much. But the other area with regards to this final judgment is what had what is the intermediate state of souls when they die. And this is something that has caused a great deal of controversy with theologians over the years. And it is a difficult subject because the Bible is not explicit. Or shall I say is not overly explicit, with many descriptions.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:We know that. What Paul says that when we die is absent from the body president. We know that it everybody's body dies, but our souls continue. We are living souls, and it's where do those souls go. If we look at the parable of Lazarus and Richman the understanding of the Jews at that time was always this place called shale. And it was divided into two sections on the one section, which some say is paradise, and there were some side when the thief was on the cross. And Jesus said, Today, you will be with me in paradise. That's where the righteous, okay, well, so we have people, Abraham, as you see, Father Abraham there. And then we look at the prophets, and King David and all those that would be judged by God during his old testament period. Or shall we say, all those just prior to the cross, who were righteous in God's eyes, that's where they were. On the other side of the great chasm. We have the rich man who couldn't give talks about Lazarus and all he had to put up with, but now he wants him to come over and sprinkle some water on his tongue. He is in the other aspect of shell. He is in this aspect where there is torment, because he says I'm tormented. and Iran says one on sorry, oh, some but he can't come over Lucas is a great big gap between the and me and we can't make it. It's in this particular area. When, in the old apostles creed, it talks about Jesus went down to hell. There are there is also the other mom where it says that he went down to preach to the spirits who were imprisoned at the time of the flood. Now these are the fallen angels.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Okay,
Steve:that ain't. It came the right time. And these are the fallen angels that came down at the time of Noah. It says that they left their thirsty state. They came under judgment and they were plunged into a place called Tata Russel Tata wrote that scene, I think it's in the first or second literal picture. And it's the only place in the Bible where that appears. Right? It's in classical Greek mythology. One might wonder why Peter would use that, but under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, he does, yeah, so we have to understand that there is a place called Tartarus, or tartaruga, depending on where you read the Greek. And these spirits, these angels were bound, and placed there until the day of judgment and I are still there. The Greeks would say that Tartarus was this fall below hell, as hell is below Heaven,
Reverend Ben Cooper:right
Steve:So it's pretty low,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's low, you can't get no lower up,
Steve:get no lower. And so we have these places of imprisonment. Yes, we have these places of servitude. We have these places of suffering, torment, and this is before judgment. This is before judgment before before judgment. And it's an indication of the fact that all men who are not deemed righteous by God. And as Paul said, we are, we were all once children of race. Every man is Jew, that place of Hades, the grave, however you would have it, irregardless of a judicial aspect, which comes along here, where God opens the box. Every man can go there, regardless of what he does in this life, because every man is under duress. So they're placed in that place. We see also that, in the reading in the revelation, reading, we know that the sea gives up it's dead. And we know that death gives up it's dead. They these are very, very intriguing, very intriguing aspects. That the sea is an entity apart from the waves that crash about it's the sea is some sort of entity, which doesn't get thrust into the lake of fire. Now that's interesting. Death is an entity.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:Hades is an entity and they hold the dead but they don't hold the righteous dead They hold the unrighteous
Reverend Ben Cooper:unrighteous
Steve:and so they have to yield them up. They come before the throne of God. The books are opened and they are judged according to their works. Now, the other thing that we have to understand from things that Jesus Is there whilst there is this thrusting into the lake of fire eventually, in that lake of fire, it appears as though there are different levels of punishment. If I quickly read, I think it's Mark 9
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is a very, very deep and very thought provoking subject, and we're not hearing. Well, I've said to Steve earlier, I've not really heard scriptures pulled out this for many, many, many years. within the church, it is a completely different message that's coming over. And these are the scriptures and the messages that are really make one think about their salvation about their life. And when it makes you think about your life and thinks about your mortality, and think makes you think between the eternity in heaven or the eternity in the lake of fire, it really pulled you out very quickly. And this is what's needed across this nation across this globe. These sound doctoring decisions that hell exists. I know a pastor, can you call him a pastor, but I will do because that's what he's titled himself that doesn't believe in hell
Steve:with and he doesn't believe in the scriptures. Those don't he don't believe that Jesus says
Reverend Ben Cooper:to say that he doesn't believe in any it's, it's they seem to take certain parts that fits them because they don't want to journey that. Well. We'll deal with that bit in a minute. Okay, come on. I'm gonna require but
Steve:this is from Mark nine. Yeah, Mark, nine, and it's from verse 42. But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone hung around his neck, and he was thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life mind, rather than having two hands to go to hell into the fire. That will be quite the neck term. Hell, there is Hades. And again, when we look at the difference, or in actual fact, I think it's a Ghana. That's another aspect which I'll touch on in a moment. They are one does not die, and the fire is not quenched. Now that word, therefore, worm, I can't remember at the moment, it's sh something I can't remember what it is. It's a one phase on dead bodies. All right, great. It's a particular word feed on dead bodies. And it says the worm does not die. Well, if we take a dead body, yeah, okay. Once the worm has eaten it, yes, there's nothing left to carry on. No. So the woman's gonna die. Yeah, according to this, the world doesn't die, it doesn't die. Therefore,
Reverend Ben Cooper:the chairman is eternity he turn is eternal. It's never ending.
Steve:Yeah, and the fire is not quenched. And if your fault causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter Lifeline, rather than having to fight to be cast into hell. Again, gahanna enter the fire that shall never be quenched where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire where their worm does not die. And the fire is not quite
Reverend Ben Cooper:so said it's three talkin it three times very clearly very clearly.
Steve:So you can't you could argue what you're looking
Reverend Ben Cooper:at the Bible says it.
Steve:Yeah. So if you want to if you want to tear out mark and chuck it away. Well, that's up to you. Yeah. But you've got a problem coming.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's very clear, three times in a very short concession of reading that scripture. We clearly hear about eternity, life, hell, and the longevity of eternity. Yeah, it does not die. It doesn't die.
Steve:It goes on. It is a perpetual torment, torment.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That word has made me go quiet. The word torment when when when you clearly get a capture of the the gravity and the depth of that word, torment. Again, I'm sorry for referencing this. But when you talk about the name it and claim it, they will not mention an ounce of this. It's all you are a champion, you are a winner. And there's no consequence whatsoever in that gospel that they preach but the scripture in many places tells us that there the need of repentance, the need of the blood of Jesus, because if there is none of that upon us and within us, there is a place that we are going yes and as what we've just read,
Steve:yes, is the destiny of all men if they are not saved to give you an idea that there reductions of suffering in Mark six. And this is where I want to pick up on your friend who calls himself a pastor. Yep. When he called the 12 to himself and began to send them out to my to gave them power over unclean spirits, he commanded them to take nothing for the journey except to staff who bag no bread, no copper in their money bills, but to wear sandals and not to put on to tunics. Also, he said to them, in whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. And whoever will not receive you know, here, you remember that? No, here Yeah. When you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment than for that city. So basically, Jesus is saying here that Sodom and Gomorrah has lightly went through. They did what they did, and they were hit by a terrible judgment from God. They still have to enter into the judgment, Throne of Yeah. But it will be more tolerable for them than those who have rejected Christ and His Word. Oh, now that is one of the reasons why when people want to start playing ducks and Drakes Word of God, they are entering into an extremely dangerous place. One can say, I don't understand the word. We're all in that place. We're all there. But you cannot say, I don't believe it. I don't accept it. I don't think Jesus meant this. That's the other thing. He didn't mean this, he meant that. And today, people that will take chunks out of the Bible and throw it away. They are going to come under a judgement. Yeah. Because they're rejecting the Word of God.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's trying to soften or you want him go down that road today. But it clearly mentions in the Bible, that there is a place of judgment. You've just read that very clearly. We get that. I wonder why people do not want to talk about it. What do you think that is? Why that why they will reject that? Why will they clearly take that completely out? Is it because they're fearful of it?
Steve:Fear is certainly a part of it. Yes. I mean, if you consider if someone the whole area of this part of the gospel is sobering. very sobering. Yes. You can't get into a happy clappy mode with this. Yeah. It also calls you to think about your own condition. If it makes you wonder, seriously, I must ask myself the question. Am I saved? Am I part of the faith? So much the day is based upon my decision? give your heart to Jesus get back to work. It's all okay. Yeah. But seriously, I told you a story that john MacArthur related, somebody came up to him and said that dear brother, john, is suffering and he's worrying about his salvation, which is extremely healthy. And john MacArthur said, Oh, don't worry, he just hasn't had enough way to use trials trials, he's not enough trials, or trials are there to do one of two things, either to draw us to God, or cause us to run away. When you start talking about hell, you can do one of two things. You can either draw towards God, or you can ignore it and run away and pretend it isn't there.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, it's such a is very sobering when you talk about how it really makes you think about your own mortality and war, where where am I going to go and die? Yes, that is the critical question, Where will I go,
Steve:and we will go on to that in a moment. But I want to read this other aspect, from Luke, because this again, is a statement which, as far as I'm concerned, is a stark warning to people who say that they are ministers, or any Christian. And we're picking up in Luke 12 and verse 42. And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? bless it is that servant whom his master will find doing so when it comes, Truly I say to you that he will make ruler over all that he has. But if that servant says in his heart Why master is delaying is coming, or begins to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in to an appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. The reason God puts warnings in His Word is because we as human beings, don't all respond to nice words. Many of us, you know, we we don't respond or cuddle and kiss Now, many of us need a belt redhead. Yep, we do and poke. And that's why warnings are there. If you take the warnings out of the Bible, yeah, you're taking out a fundamental aspect of God's work in bringing his children to salvation. And here this idea of a beating fellow servants and eating and drinking with the drunkards is, if you consider in Hebrews, he talks about how is that God chest eyes is his own?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:All right. And if you are not chastised, you are not one of his. And there is a difference between being chastised and beaten, which is Yeah, this chastisement brings us to a place of repentance, and ask for asking for God's forgiveness. The baiting in this situation is quite different. What this speaks of is actually, if you will, a removal of discipline and rather a beating with a stick, which is unrighteous in as much that you are not giving the full gospel. Yes, yeah. You enter into with drunkards. Now, it says in the word that we ought to be sober, that we are not to be drunk, like the world. Yeah. So what is happening here is that these people who are supposed to be servants of Christ, are acting like the world. They are not giving full gospel. They are, in actual fact, in some cases, abusing other people, when they say this word is a word of God. You must take this whole word of God because it's the only counsel which we have. Yeah. And they come along as Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it says, No, no, we can't have this. We can't have that. We'll, we'll take this out. Take that out. And you cause people to be drunk, because they are not careful. Yeah, for their soul. And you effectively cut away a huge amount of the gospel, I mean, it directly out was reading the other day, that if we take all the comments that Jesus made about judgment, and hell, and condemnation, and all that, that which is going to happen to the sinner, he spoke about it twice as much done about heaven. So if you spoke
Reverend Ben Cooper:about it twice as much this is for there's a serious and waning attention to it.
Steve:Yeah. And if we take it out, yeah. Then we don't preach the full gospel. No. And we were speaking earlier about how is that? to preach the gospel? You have to preach the law. The reason today people's Oh, no, we're not under law. We're under grace. Yes, we are. But you need to know why we're under grace and why we're not under law. Yeah. We have to know from the law. What series and the law shows us if you do this, or Senate, if you do that you're a sinner, if you do this show us and if you do that you're a sinner.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that's missing as well today, isn't it from the teaching? Because Well, I can't remember again, when I was told that I'm a sinner. But by Grace, I'm set axacon recall when I've come under a real powerful teaching of the law, but now I'm saved by grace. And it makes me think it is all happy. Clap, clap, clap. And it is very light
Steve:have to go back to the law to find out what it is. Yeah. And if we look at the law, it's, Paul says, David says, rejoice in your law. Paul says the Lord is good.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So it's important to come because the Old Testament runs beautifully all run seamlessly together.
Steve:So what is it? Yeah, in the Old Testament is the new the New Testament is concealed in the old Yeah, and the only revealed in the new and the point about the judge that the point about the law which God gave to Moses is indicative of all those sins. Which man is coming from the idea of the 10 commandments, and then all that which is put into the vertical order of how you deal with the sins. And then that is all applied to Christ, that He has fulfilled the demands of the law. And we trust in that perfect sacrifice. So we don't go back to bulls and lambs and goats, but we trust in His perfect sacrifice, by trusting that we are washed from our sins, but unless we know what they are,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we don't know what would be washed from but there's a church out there isn't there that disregards the Old Testament? Yes. With not understanding it, and bringing it parallel to know you've got a one thing you've got, you've got you've got nothing. You've got nothing at all. Because
Steve:unless you reference the Old Testament, you have to ask yourself, then what was the point in Jesus dying? Yeah, seriously, maybe? Yeah, assessment. Let's just remove the old testament for a moment. Put it on one side. Jesus died on a cross. Why?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Why was he bad? I don't know. Tell me why.
Steve:Paul's very clear about it. He says it wasn't when the law came. It shouldn't be this evening, and I found out I was a sinner. Yeah. Before no claim on it. No, I was alright. But the thing is about it is that unless we have this preaching of the law,
Reverend Ben Cooper:yeah. We do not know why Christ died for us. So the law is a reference point to understand why am I sinner, but I now I'm a sinner, but now he died on a cross in a new covenant and washed in the blood. Yes. So I've got a journey of understanding, and it's no good thrown out there. You're a sinner. And that's it. Why am I Why am I? Why am I sinner? Yes. Tell me.
Steve:Yeah. But and then also, we have to look back at the area of the Garden of Eden and the fall of men. Yeah. Anybody that wants to go down the route of evolution on sorry, I don't care who you are or what you believe. But you again, are kind of why a major portion of telling us, the world tells us why we are what we are, yeah, I sin because I'm a sinner, sinner because of sin.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when we talk about sin, we go right back to the beginning of time, yes. And then when we go back there, we get a foundation of understanding the fall of humanity. Yes. And that brings me to our eye. Now I know why you're calling me a sinner. That's right. So but we've kind of explained it, but without the foundational teaching of the Old Testament. I'm not really going to grasp why you call me a sinner, right. And now when
Steve:we come down to the area of Hades, yeah. And then the lack of fire. Yeah, what we now say is, look, here's the law. Yeah. According to the law of God, which is a royal law.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, eternal, internal, you
Steve:are a sinner. And there is nothing that you can do to make yourself right with God. But he has sent His Son Yeah. To become seen for us. He has paid all the price, all the demand of the law. And if we trust in Him, and him alone, yeah. Then we are free from the judgment that comes on what is the judgment that comes? Hell? And the lake of fire? Yeah. So you have to put the three together, to get to get an understanding a clear of where we've come from. And now we know where we are, and where we could end up if we don't hold on to Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. And amongst that is the the word repentance, I repent. And I come to him and I know that there is a consequence, if I do not x, well, when I say accept, you know, no man's capable of of accepting him but being caught him so I'm very aware as a believer that that I was destined for that, like you are indeed as eyes are all men, as all men, as the scripture says, that doesn't take anybody out. All men are destined All men are by nature,
Steve:lets go and read it, Let's read this read in Romans, you see Romans three. And Paul is very clear.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Romans chapter three.
Steve:And he says, There is none righteous, pick it up in verse 10, there is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who understands. There is no one seeks after God. They have all turned aside, I have together become unprofitable. There is no one who does good No, not one. their throat is an open tomb with their tongues they have practiced the same. The poison of ASPs is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery or in their ways, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes and there is a common words Trump says in Scripture, there is a way that seems right to men. But in the end, there is death, which basically a paraphrase is a paraphrase. And so we see that we are all destined again, Paul talks about it how we were all children of wrath. Yeah. All men are destined for destruction. But God in His grace sent his Son that whosoever believes in him would not perish. And the perishing is in the lake of fire. Yeah. Yeah. He who believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Quite simple, isn't it?
Steve:Very simple. But if you take any, if you take, if you take it away, we call it strange.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It has to go to go to use a biblical term. Yes,
Steve:recording Australia.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And if you take away any of the codes, yeah, you take away a vital part of the gospel, definitely. So now we get an understanding this strange church is is moving out there because they take out one strand, maybe because of fear, maybe because they don't want to expand on it, because they frightened that it might push the congregation away from it if they talk and they bring that but conviction does
Steve:draws people to God or drives them away, you can't conviction, conviction is necessary.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So if you talk about a seeker friendly church, what would you like in church? No one's gonna go well, you know, I'd like this Sunday morning, tell me that held waiting for you know, no one's gonna go. I'd like a nice soft message with a nice cup of coffee. Bring it down to Jesus loves me, and that domain, and that's all right. And that's what we've got today, isn't it? Yeah. That Jesus loves me. God loves everybody. God is embracing everybody. God will not turn anybody away. God wants everybody. Yes. You know, God is love. We know
Steve:that God would the old God was the old man, our saving comes from a knowledge of salvation. That knowledge of the truth. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. So we're, we're a very critical stage, aren't we within the UK, let alone looking outside. When you see what the denominations are deciding to do, when you've got pastors that that very clearly, very clearly have at this conversation. Not that believe in Hell, I don't believe God, God is all loving. And then you speak to others. And they talk about don't really believe in creation, I believe in the big, big bang and evolution. And then I had a conversation with another leader of a church that said, I don't actually believe in the Immaculate Conception. And you think, what was going on with you? What? So you
Steve:have to ask yourself this question. If I wanted to be a brain surgeon, would I go and study horticulture? Seriously, if you're a Christian, where would you go? You go to the Word of God, you find a bit in it and you don't like That's tough.
Reverend Ben Cooper:They're all bits in it. And it all goes together. Don't add this word. We don't have anything else. No, we don't have any is from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, that is it. That's it.
Steve:That's one of the reasons why false prophets and false teachers use it because they want to deceive people. Yeah, like, you know, right, those that write their own Bibles. We understand and we know that we can we chunk it out, we get rid of it. But when we got the false prophets and the false teachers in the church, they use this word,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and they twist this word. So when he was talking about judgment earlier, a different layer of it. Yes, that judgment for a false prophet, false tangible, that's quite a very scary net.
Steve:Do not many of you seem to be teachers, because you will come under a great judgment. Goodness, every single one of us at some point, either stays before the Bemis what's known as a being a saint, and we are all looked at by God. And we are all our whole life is looked at by him. The difference between the Christian and the non Christian is that we have passed from judgment to life. Yeah. So what we look towards is possibly a lot of reward. But Paul says, you know, his work is burnt up, and kindness. He still has his salvation. Yeah. And we look at this area for Christians that our work is tested as by fire. Yeah, that which reminds for that we will be rewarded. If it is all burn up.
Reverend Ben Cooper:We're in trouble. lost reward
Steve:we get we we get our salvation because that's a given.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that's quite interesting, isn't it? That that is given?
Steve:Yes, it's a gift.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You can't earn that that's a gift that is clearly given. Yes. And there's only one place on one one way that can come through faith. Yes. So That is clearly given its but worked can be burned up like that. Yes. gone within a blink of an eye.
Steve:Yes. And so you can be a safe Christian. Yeah. And you can you can believe in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation. I'm not going to say what the judgment of God is because I'm not God, God. But if you're not careful in your life, if you're not careful, as a Christian, yeah, your work will be burn up. Yes, you will be saved. But you'll go through it like you're going to be tested by firing in some way down and it works out. I'm not sure. But we have to understand that all men outside of Christ, men and women, if you like, all of mankind, that's all mankind outside of Christ, at the time of their death, go into the grave. And they stay in the grave. In that place of torment, if we look at where the rich man is at the moment, and then they are brought back out of the grave at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, and their lives are judged. It's this deep stuff as an end, every man is destined for that judgment. Other than outside, if they're outside of Christ inside of Christ, as I say, we will bear examination. Because every every loose word will be judged.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Every word, every thought, every deed,
Steve:I mean, every action, especially from the point of view of advertising to God, His work and so forth. This is where the testing comes in so we you know, walking with God is a sobering very sobering walk it you know, I guess all right, the return is it's, it's, it's joyful and so forth. But you're walking with a holy God, he makes demands
Reverend Ben Cooper:upon us policy holy, cuz I'm holy be holy desire modeling.
Steve:And our point of our walk on this earth is to seek to become holy, that we might please Him and honor him. Yeah. bringing him glory, bringing him glory. Yeah, it's really interesting, really, really deep is.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So what about that the text with the faith on the crossing says, within a twinkling of an eye, you'll be with me and today you will be mean paradise. Yeah. Again, there are teachings within areas of theology which say that
Steve:this division within she'll, where Lazarus was, where he was comfortable. That was the place called paradise. Right? Right. And that's where Jesus went, and he led captivity captive. When he ascended. Yes, right. There's what he did. He went to Tartarus. Yeah, right. And it says he preached to the spirits that were imprisoned here. And the situation that somebody once said, Rob cheekily, he stood before their prison gates and said, hey, you're still here, but I'm free. I've got the keys to death in hell. Yeah, I've conquered goodbye. You still got your turn. Your judgment is still coming to come. And then he ascends into paradise. Yeah, from Paradise he has since to his father's throne, taking with him all those that were captive captive by death by death, when become keys of death and hell, yeah, I've got the keys of death and how we unlock death. releases it. He says death. Right, you all you're gonna hold on is all the unrighteous. Yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna get thrown into the fire at some point. I've got the keys. I'm letting all these people free because I've died on the cross. I've taken the punishment. You can't hold them anymore. And I'm taking them away. Not only these, but those that are to come. Right. Okay. All right. Yeah. So if you will, Paradise is empty now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah.
Steve:empty, empty, because all the righteous are seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes.
Steve:But we have this other aspect of the grave. Yeah. Hell, Hades house, you and me. Yeah. And that is still populated and continue south bay. There was a term that Jesus used. I spoke about it earlier about Hellfire it was Ghana, Ghana. And it It came from the term the value of hinnom which is a valley in just to the south of Jerusalem. And it it said that that was the place where child sacrifice went on to the demon Moloch. Yeah. And they will be thrown into a fire and the sacrifice to him and also chemosh was another one of the gods, false gods. And the time when Jesus was there, the Valley of hinnom was a rubbish pit that had a constant fire, it kept burn, it kept burning. And one of the reasons he kept burning, it burnt all the trash that people were throwing in now. Yeah, but he also burned up the stench. So you know, it wasn't flowing in, in Jerusalem, you know? So, this idea, it's quite interesting when you think about it, that on the one hand, you have the Valley of hinnom, which is a type of the lake of fire. Yes, yeah. Right next to the temple of God right now is a type of heaven.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But we see that a lot in Scripture, don't we, they run very close to get close together very close together.
Steve:And so it gahanna there, he was using it as an illustration yet, and people understood what he was talking about. And Ghana, the likes of fire, eternal fire. Let's do like a fire that we seen in Revelation 20. Yeah, and he does not stop burning. Well,
Reverend Ben Cooper:wow, there we are. We've reached we reached that point, a very interesting subject today. And it's a lot to take in and maybe we need to go back over and listen and it makes us question our salvation and it makes makes me look very deep within myself and but thanks be to God, by His grace, and by the the free gift of salvation. The gift of salvation, God has given us that gift and whoever you are today, we thank you for listening and wherever you may be, you know, Steve, as we've gone in probably the deepest we've probably ever gone in before he did a subject that is that is a frightening subject, but it's not if if we know who we are in Christ Jesus is a subject that's not spoken around in churches as a subject that's not spoken really between Christians, you know, we just seem to greet each other and say all as well, and God is love and everything and be okay. But maybe God is leading. Maybe God will lead the church in these last days to teach and to, to look maybe into the depth of hell,
Steve:yes. It's a must. You can't, you can't take you can't take out the consequences of your sin. If you don't know what the consequences of your sin I guess. Yeah, I mean, I know dates, not necessarily going to make every sentence out go order go to hell. But it's going to it's going to do something for someone I remember reading. I can't remember guy I wish I could remember his I mean, he is he's worthy of mention. But somebody wrote to him and say, thank you very much for your teacher because he was teaching on him. Yes. Thank you very much for your teaching of hell. I've not, I'm not I've realized that I, my my relationship with God, and Christ Jesus, not as it should. I'm 13 years old. And I have come to an understanding or need of God. And part of is coming to understand the need of God in Christ Jesus was he read this means teaching on how on how
Reverend Ben Cooper:it will draw your close, it will replace it
Steve:with those who say I would do one of two things. Yeah. And if you take away this, this aspect you take away and aspects of the gospel
Reverend Ben Cooper:are very core on the very foundation, and a needed teaching. Steve, we thank you so much, wherever you are today. Thank you for listening on all the platforms and this is pushed out on May God bless you and strengthen you keeping the Word of God and if you need Steve, you know where you can get out of him. You can contact us here at Elim church, but we thank you so much for everyone on the platforms, Spotify, buzzsprout, and all them other areas where this goes out. May God bless you and strengthen you and we'll catch you very soon.
Steve:Take care. God bless.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Thank you. Bye bye.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elan chats on this latest podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.