Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:04

Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast, yeah, thank you. Good afternoon world, wherever you are today, we thank you so much for joining us as we gather around a mic for a bit of discussion. And Steve's bought a really interesting word, he's going to bring a really meaningful, I really believe God is gonna take us to a different level, because this is an interesting subject to me. And it's about tithing and giving. And as soon as well, I hear the word tithing and giving, and we start going down the areas of the road that we name it and claim it and the prosperity gospel, it can be very, very manipulative, the way they preach it and teach it and they deliver it, we're not pyramid selling. So Steve is going to guide us through the Scriptures or that need to welcome Steve anymore, don't need to introduce him anymore.

Steve Valler: 0:49

He's not welcoming me, that's nice,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:51

you know,

Steve Valler: 0:51

your not welcome, shove off,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:52

you know what I mean? I don't need to bring you in a big intro. You know, everyone, all of us know, our brother, Steve. And we really appreciate his ministry. And we thank God that he's gonna deliver us and he's going to bring us and he's gonna keep us it's really, really great to be able to be in the company of brothers that are, I would say, a very well schooled, long learning, long suffering. And I really, I really, thank God for the way that stays brings the word to us. And I pray that God will continue to allow us to do these podcasts. And we will expand as time goes on. And we just want to welcome you. And obviously, we love Steve and we've had 1000s of downloads of these podcasts that we're doing all around the world. So whoever you are, wherever you may be, we just want to say from the bottom of our heart, thank you for for listening. Thank you for listening. Thank you so much for listening and stay here we go. Let's, let's let's press in you, you you take us in my friend.

Steve Valler: 1:59

Okay, first things first, I've got a bit of a cold, so might sound a bit throaty or nosy or whatever. So forgive me. I prayed about this coming up, because I've got an accent that you can cut with a knife. When you add when you add a cold to it, it can be a bit difficult, right? So we're going to be reading out of two scriptures. Deuteronomy 1422 29 and two Corinthians nine a 126. Excellent. Right. Oh, sorry, one seven or do apologize. Yes. Okay. All right. Okay, so first reading is out of the New King James, as you shall truly ties all the increase of your grain, that the field may fail produces year by year. And you should eat before the Lord your God in a place where he chooses to make his name abide the ties of your grain and your new wine and your oil of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to feel the Lord your God always lift journeys too long for you so that you're not able to carry the ties. Or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put his name is too far from you. When the Lord your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money. Take the money in your hand, he goes to the place which the Lord your God chooses. And you should spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink. For whatever your heart desires. You shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household, you shall not forsake the leave like who is within your gate, for he has no partner inheritance with you. At the end of every third year, you should bring out the ties of your produce of that year, and store it up within your gates and leave right because he has no portion nor inheritance with you. And the stranger and the fatherless, and the widow who are within your gates may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God might bless you in all the work of your hand, which you do. Now, I'm going to read two Corinthians nine I'll read this out of the authorized first touching the ministering to the sites, it is superfluous for me to write to you. For I know the forwardness of your mind, which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Kaia was really a year ago in your zeal has provoked many. Yeah, have I sent the bravery unless they are boasting of you should be invited in his behalf? That as I said, you might be ready less happily, if they have Macedonia Come with me, and find your unprepared, we that we say not ye should be ashamed in the same confident boasting. Therefore I sought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty Where have you have had noticed before, that the same might be ready as a matter of bounty, or not as covetousness but as I say, he which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly and he Choice bountifully shall reap also bountifully. every man according SC purposes in his heart, so let him give not grudgingly, or of necessity for God loves a cheerful giver. Now there are many people around today in the Christian church that Bandy this word of tires around. Yeah, yeah, we find it first thing in the scriptures when Abraham has defeated various kings is rescue lot.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 5:36

Yeah.

Steve Valler: 5:36

And he goes to meet general Omari for remember how to pronounce it of Saddam and the king of Salem Melchizedek comes out and blesses Abraham and Abraham he's a 10th of all that he has acquired on this venture to rescue a lot. Melchizedek I'm not going to go into it. We understand that because it is a type of Christ. Very much incredible type of chronic disease by the king. Yeah, priest, the guy but he gave this ties this tense. And he gave out of all that he had rescued from the hands of the people that had lot. And he never held on to any of it because the king of Sodom said, Look, you keep all all the good. Just give me two people, which I whenever I read that that always Yeah, right. We want to you want to get up to an Abraham said, No, not interested, I'll take the expenses from people that came with me for a blessing for him, but now I'm not taking anything at all. I'm not gonna with you telling everybody you might be rich. So he abandoned everything, and went back home. And then we come to this teaching in Deuteronomy, the second reason of the law. Whilst is spoken of, in an earlier book, it's really expanded upon here. And we see that the ties was not something which God somehow wanted for himself. To sort of burn up on an altar, quite the reverse. He said, You take your ties, and come out with big faces before me.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 7:33

Okay, right.

Steve Valler: 7:34

Come and have a big face before me. And when you come, you know, you can if you can't bring all the all the barley and wheat and all the rest of it, sell it for money and bring the money up with you and buy what you want. And whenever big feast, I forget the lien rights because, you know, they're there and I've not given a portion in the land. So bless them, which is what they do. And we know that it develops at the time of the temple. And as we track forward, we get to malikai which is often Yeah, the scripture has brought people up with no idea.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 8:15

What, put all ya tythe in the storehouse. Yeah, the windows are a blessing for so much you contain it? That sounds like a good old line that the then transatlantic people might pull out. We got enough here. Yes.

Steve Valler: 8:35

And then we come to recording it was right. Brought stuff in for the for the legal rights for the upkeep of the temple. And it by the time they got to America, I was despising it, I couldn't care less you know, they their relationship with God was pure religious, necessarily just went through the

Reverend Ben Cooper: 8:57

process. And yeah, that was it.

Steve Valler: 9:01

Now when we come to the New Covenant, it's hardly a surprise that tithing is not in part, not part and parcel, Lloyd. Because the Levitical priesthood is passing a why, yeah, because there's no need for the sacrifice of bulls and goats, and so on and so forth. So there's no need to keep up the Levitical priesthood, if I point to it. Also, the temple that Herod had constructed, was not the place anymore where those who were of God and so through the flow of Christ, were to go to worship. I know that Peter didn't I know that there was that outworking in Jerusalem. I'm not ignorant of that. But when we see that the gospel goes across the world, people are not then instructed, right, you've got to go to Jerusalem to worship that, isn't it? That is, I mean, Jesus handled this when he spoke to the Samaritan woman. You know, not here or not in the terminal. You know, God wants those who worship him to worship Him in spirit in the right way. So so there is no provision for tithing, none at all.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:12

So it was purely for Old Testament, right up right up until the cross is right to the point of the cross. And it was for the Levitical priesthood, to help it attempt to upkeep it a temple to keep everything moving to keep and take care and the widows

Steve Valler: 10:27

listed widows and orphans and so on and so

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:29

forth. So it's being put to good use. So it was looking after widows. orphans feeding, homing, looking after the priesthood, upkeep of the temple. this right up to the cross the Calvary

Steve Valler: 10:44

Yes.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:45

Okay,

Steve Valler: 10:45

now I know it was corrupted. We know that the various we've only got to look at the line of priests and how they corrupted themselves at various times we've got a lion, his two sons when at the time of Samuel when they are going to take the a portion of the sacrifice when we don't eat boiled, we wouldn't we wouldn't roast it good. We're waiting boiled lamb what roast lamb. We want roast beef, not boiled beef. So we see already that there's a corruption.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 11:19

There's a corruption brewing,

Steve Valler: 11:20

yeah, and a license plate price for that. And as we come up as a side to the cross.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 11:29

So can I just stop you there? Say, Eli son, so when you said they paid the price died, they died. Now that was because they came away from God's clear command. And so that is very important to understand, isn't it? right the way through the Old Testament God gave very clear on that we know he does in the know what we're talking on this subject to go very clear instruction, what to do and how to do it. Yes. And if you come out of that, you'll pay the price. Yes. So that's simple, isn't it? Yes. So that's what happened to them too young. Y'all were age, there was the two young brothers, they died because they came out of the instruction. And they started to corrupt what God wanted them to do. Right?

Steve Valler: 12:15

So we come to the New Testament. And when the Gentiles come to the apostles in Jerusalem, and they want to understand how they are to live, and joins in the apostle, so look, you know, don't eat anything strangled, and then by blood and something you don't be circumcised. There's no provision for tithing. I don't the apostles put no provision for tithing on the Gentile community of the church.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:47

So no pressure of giving whatsoever.

Steve Valler: 12:51

Right. And the idea, then, is obviously that Paul sees that there is a various times there's a need for the poor. And he's he wants to reach out to the poor. And even as James says, you know, if you've got a brother in your your midst, and he's, he's got no money, he's got no phone, knees, he's got no way to keep yourself warm. Don't just say, God bless you, brother and walk away. If you've got any, you know, you gotta leave quickly, your pocket help him out.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:22

So if you've got the ability of helping someone do so yes, very simple teaching.

Steve Valler: 13:28

And in this Corinthian letter, Paul makes it very, very clear that he's had dealings with these people. And they have been very, very generous. They've always had their hand in your pocket to help everybody out. They always done so. And Paul, just sort of, just in case of got it wrong. This time. I've sent people up there to make sure everything works out because I wasn't understanding with egg on the face. But finds out that no, like they are as generous as ever. But the intriguing part about it is that he's instruction is that how I, how we are even today to give

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:14

in the area of where we see the need.

Steve Valler: 14:16

yeah, but even from the point of view of Oh, giving into your fellowship, okay, going into your congregation. Yep. And in verse five, it says, Therefore, I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before me unto you and make up beforehand, your bounty, or your gift. Were of the head notice before you know, I told you about it, we're coming so it's appropriate that the same might be ready as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness. Now, that word covetousness, is I can't remember it pronouncing Greeks I'm not even gonna bother to try, but it means greed, greed, greed. Okay. Basically what you same year is that look, if you're giving to get, you're giving for the wrong reason. So whenever you've got these preachers standing up there, so exactly the reason you're not getting the money either, I promise you last week usually are not given enough. You're not given enough. We're not urging you're not getting it because you're giving out a wrong reason. The again, yes, yeah, you're giving it out of the fact that you're are you're greedy. Yes, you're greedy, and you want something for something. You're not, you're not you're happy

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:34

to give from your heart from your heart, y'all don't even know, on a business level you given you expect to return. Right? Okay. And

Steve Valler: 15:44

I mean, pork does go on the side, but this I say, here, which so sparingly shall read also sparingly, and he would sows bountifully shall reap also bountifully. So what he's saying here is that, look, don't give out have a desire to get something out of this. But I'll tell you this, God is gracious. And if you give out have a good heart, and you you bless people, then God's gonna bless you.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:10

And I've actually St. Without going into the real depth of that, I've experienced that. And it is it is beyond how you can imagine how God opens up the door. Now, this is very important. It doesn't open the cache door. But the way he blesses you, the way he guide you the way he strengthens you, when you give with your heart, and you're given don't expect to return. And you're not doing it because you're doing it because you love a joyful giver. It's hilarious. It's hilarious. And I'm Chris and myself, we've seen this happen. And it's very difficult to explain how, how the return comes back. But suddenly you find your life's are peaceful. You find that the certain areas of your life are, are working smoothly. You find that doors open that no man could open. There's a Can I use a word supernatural? Because that's exactly what it is. There's a supernatural way that God brings it but the the preacher that would preach that would be you're gonna get a new home, you're gonna get your bank accounts gonna be full. When is no scripture to base that upon its manipulation of Scripture, yes. But when you give with your heart, and you give what you feel is correct to give. And you give graciously and you give quietly,

Steve Valler: 17:36

do not let your lifter know what your writing is doing.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:39

You are so true, because you're talking about the Word of God. Obviously, God blesses and God Mike's away.

Steve Valler: 17:46

So no, I, if I would also another, not an opposing view. But I would suggest this that there would be a grief in your heart that you can't give more.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:02

Yes, yes. You know, because you

Steve Valler: 18:05

want to bless you want to bless. Yeah, I

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:07

think you've hit something really important that the word bless. When you are a real Bible believing believer and you really want more of Christ. And when you start to see the power of giving, it's better to give than to receive. I've experienced that as well. Just give, give, give, give, give, and it's off oneself, isn't it? It's not just, it's it's giving yourself two hours helping feeding clothing. Encourage it, all this stuff all goes together. I know we're on the word tithing and giving. But to give there is something so beautiful about giving to someone that is in need and not expecting a return. It's it should be a natural lifestyle. It should be a natural lifestyle.

Steve Valler: 18:53

There should be absolutely no thought whatsoever about I want something back from this. Yes. I mean, but the only thing I would always caution people. There's no reason why you can't be wise. Because there's plenty of people out there want to fleece you, right? Yeah, there's plenty of people that not just the nine climate. No, no, no, no, no, no. There's plenty of people out there. Definitely. So you always need to be a wise steward. Yeah, another word very steward. Yes. You need to be a wise steward. Yeah. I'm, I'm not a very wise steward. But one of the things I learned over the years is and I'm going back a long time now. Was I never saw God to give me more money. Now, what a soap for from him was to make me a better steward. Why Ed? Okay, right, because Jesus says in the word, you know, if you're faithful in little, then you will be faithful in a lot in a lot. You ain't faithful in a little. No matter how much I'm giving you. You're going to be faithful. So there's no If you can't if you're consciously understanding what kind of person you are, and how you need to be changed, I'm not saying that I'm me. I'm just saying I'm not wise we don't do I add on money. I never have been, you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:14

I think I will say me, too. Yeah, I think I agree. I agree. I agree with what you're saying. And I've experienced that. Yeah. So being a good steward is really critical is because you can't outgive God, but there is such a teaching out there that is that God is like, gonna, I've got a money machine upstairs, and he's gonna fire you 10 pound notes. He's like, you know, that money gun? Yes, I know. It doesn't work. It's just, it's never gonna happen.

Steve Valler: 20:47

Jesus said, Be careful of the deception of riches, or the deceit of riches. Once again, excuse me. He said, our two sparrows sold in the market and your father does not know. You know, Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, all these things will be added unto you. He knows what you need to eat. He knows what you need to wear. He knows where you need to be, you know? Yeah, you know, the Gentiles. And I think you used it. Not so much in a pejorative sense. But pointing out that even the jet I was, you know, God knows I need it, and he knows you need it. And it's how you handle

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:29

the giving.

Steve Valler: 21:30

Yeah. And it has to reflect and we come back to what you're saying earlier. It also has to reflect upon our whole life. Are we willing to give of ourselves, are we willing to give up our time? Are we willing to give of say things that we would, by nature, how to ourselves? Yeah. And there was another time when Jesus said, any spoke about if your eyes darkened, then the whole of your soul is darkened. And that is it's a Jewish idiom for being mean. I don't know that it's a Jewish idiom for being mean. And so you have to handle See, God is generous.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:22

Okay, beyond

Steve Valler: 22:23

completely generous

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:23

Yeah.

Steve Valler: 22:25

Well, people understand this or not Christians do but whether other people understand this or not. He supplies, our food supplies, our water supplies, a place to live. He supplies. It supplies, doctors. He supplies all sorts of stuff. It's God himself with this main coin, the understanding of how to develop his science and all the rest of the Yes. So everything comes from God. So he's incredibly generous. is a giving God it completely. Yeah. Is it prodical, we talked about it was wasteful. We gave everything away. But in many respects, God is prodigal.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:01

Yeah, because you just give you can't outgive given could we bring salvation into that? It's a gift. Oh, yes. So that is that's priceless, isn't it? Yes, completely. So you can never I mean, you can't put a price you can't put a price

Steve Valler: 23:15

anybody tries to buy salvation is a full?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:17

Yes. Yeah, very much so. So we understand very clearly that God that we follow the God of Israel, is, as Steve said, his approach he just gives and gives and gives and gives and gives and you cannot outgive God and there's that other scripture that comes to my head, you know, cast your bread upon the waters on what it's returned, that they use, they manipulate that as well as, bring all your tithe into the storehouse, and they drain that they rent that they they ring it, they ring it, ring it dry.

Steve Valler: 23:52

And it's always the same. It's stranger, all these people that they want it for themselves. Yeah, themselves. I mean, I wrote a blog once. Not so long ago. I'm not gonna name him. But he said the reason you're not getting blessed out there. He says, you're not giving to this church. He said, No spoken to people. I said, you have a pastor, I saw that there was a need in that church said, No, no, no, no, no, no, you should still give here. It's more important that you give here and to the needy people over there. Wow. Oh, and the idea again, is that if you expect God to bless you, yeah. Give me your money. Give me

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:31

your money. It's some that comes into everything. Doesn't it money, that it? Absolutely it? It corrupts it. It changes people, doesn't it? It changes people, the lust of money, the lust of money. It's really, really important that we careful what we sow into or what we think.

Steve Valler: 24:55

I'm not gonna tell stories out of school, but you're in your own life of them. have known how money is divided?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 25:03

Most definitely have. Recently I've sent things that have knocked me sideways. You hang on a minute this money when when suddenly the old pound sign comes into the arena. They sell you money second and blood, Judas.

Steve Valler: 25:22

Which is I mean, look at that. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 25:24

So when we look at the Can I ask you, Steve, when we look at the value of 30 pieces of silver? What was that equivalent to? Is there any lawyer? No, I don't know any quick way of trying to find because it was it connected to the slave trade at that point? I've

Steve Valler: 25:39

never looked into the the amount, but I would imagine is pretty large. Yeah, pretty large. I mean, they went out and I bought whole field with it afterwards, you know, to bury people in so a big, pretty big amount of money. It's, but that whole the whole thing is, I mean, you deal with people down in the hospitals you're dealing with people are dying, with no chance of being saved by doctor. And how many of them lying on their deathbed who might be extremely rich? Oh, yeah. would give everything up.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 26:12

Like Yeah, literally give everything up to buy another day or another heartbeat another moment of just looking the man at times I hear that line. I wish I never worked so hard. I wish I'd never spent so much time up the greasy pole in the ivory towers. I wish I'd never. Because at that point, Steve says when mortality comes into your, your own high sight, and you suddenly not start knowing that there's only an X amount of heartbeats left you. You can't buy a heart. You can't beat the rhythm of life. God

Steve Valler: 26:46

is gracious, and he does supply I mean, in my own life. I've only ever been out I've been out of work twice in my life, and only for very short periods of time. During that time, God always kept us and always watching over us. Yeah. And we always got the bills paid. That's great. That's correct. And all right. He always provided jobs, I was grateful for the jobs. I didn't enjoy the jobs, but less, that's something wrong with me not so much as anything else. But as I mean, I used to say, never been a prime load. I know you're using this job to sought me out. But can we go and do it somewhere else? No, we're gonna stay here, and we're gonna do. So I wasn't, I'm not an ungrateful man. But in those days, there were times when I wish it could have been done zero some way differently. But I've, I've come around now to understanding that that was God's choice. And I'm thankful that he did it that particular way.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 27:48

And there was a reason for that season. Yes. And when we're in that season, it's very difficult to understand, isn't it? So you've experienced the blessing. Oh, very much I've experienced the blessing our families have, God has always supplied, but it's never in the way of that money machine that you turn the handle and 10 pound notes are firing out at you.

Steve Valler: 28:08

I mean, and there's this, there's also nothing wrong about coming before God and explaining that you're worried about certain things, you know, certain bills to be paid. In my own life now, I mean, I'm, I'm 70 next month, I don't work now because I'm retired. And so I've got a fixed income. Yeah. So why are sometimes I I'll come before the Lord and say, Lord, I just need to talk to you about this situation. Yes, I've got things to do things that need to be done and see things in how can you just guide me and help me and, and give me wisdom? What to do how to do it. And you know, bless me in such a way if you choose so that these things can get done.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:54

Yeah. So we can bring that under the umbrella of being a steward, a good steward of of everything. Yes, Lord, have this needs fixing over there this needs dealing with in our home, we've got to do this. We got to do that. We've only got x coming in. So Father, can you help us? Show us the right way to go guide us?

Steve Valler: 29:14

That's it. And you know, it basically comes down to the area of the loaves and fishes. Yeah, he had so many loaves and fishes and he made it spread to 45,000 feet.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:26

Oh, she's about to say that fruit that supernatural way. When you completely surrender and you're completely open and you've got x coming in, and you've got sometimes more to do with it. You can God makes a way where there is no way Yes. And

Steve Valler: 29:40

it's it's it's not coming before God and saying no, can you give me x 1000s of pounds because this needs to be done. It's going to do it. He's coming before him. Look, this is the problem I'm facing here or I will be facing in the future. I want to bring this before you and I want to ask you to help me to deal with it or deal with it as you choose to do so. Yeah. And It's and II know why. I mean, God doesn't sort of get the opposite route from camier and probono. But it's dependent on how you approach him. Yeah, you know, it's it says you're

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:14

looking for guidance, you're looking for help you're, you're looking for the best way forward for yourself, or whether you're in a family environment, Lord, help us because we need to do A, B, C, D, and F. And, and that's what our Father in Heaven is about isn't it is not, you know, is he coming back to the same thing that we've been talking about the, you know, the peddling the gospel for cash, you know, it's like almost a thing out there where you pray to God, gimme, gimme, gimme, and God's gonna punch in Barclays and send you X amount of pan, it doesn't work. So we need to make a very clear definition between how God blesses you. Yeah, occasionally, we may get a financial blessing from someone that felt prompted to give to give anyone that that that's going to happen, but when we listen to evangelists on TV, and all that sort of stuff, we need to be very, that we need to be wise there. Don't worry as well.

Steve Valler: 31:14

Yeah, I mean, I, I, anybody that sort of starts or even ends up asking for money. Because it's always the same when these people tell you you've got to have great faith and and they stick around now, so give me money. Yeah. And then if you've got great five pound your enemy to me, they knew I knew why you got Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:37

you don't need me. So, so we need to be careful, don't we, when we when we hear that a lot of a lot of it so much recently, and there are certain areas or certain radio stations that I listen to occasionally. And all they ever seem to do is really press the drum on the finances, and then suddenly, you might not listen to them for a while. There's something that they're selling a product. Yeah. And then and you think hang on this is so business like,

Steve Valler: 32:05

I'm not sure. I don't know whether it was the i o G or whether it was Elan. But I do know that one of them. One of the requirements for their ministers are that and live by faith. They were not allowed to go around begging for money. You're asking for money.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:28

Elim sorry, what am i talking about? its Elim.

Steve Valler: 32:31

because I remember reading a story about one chap who retired and he went up. And I think it was when like when I still have a claim. And he went up there and he was retiring. And they shook us and say goodbye. And I didn't even give him the price.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:47

I said exactly what that is right. That is exactly right. You got to go by five. Yes. You got to go by five. You can't. There's no sniping. There's nothing. No, there's nothing. You're doing it because you're cold. That's exactly right. And if there is any chance of financial reward, that's a miracle. Yeah, because you're doing it not because of the the cash. Like certain denominations offer stipends, houses, cars, this and that. And some of the stuff that I hear I think that is phenomenal. You're on 40 grand, you got a car, you got a house. Wow. That's that's serious. And then the church struggles just to pay the leader. And their full focus becomes on money, money, money, money and money, man.

Steve Valler: 33:37

Yeah, so let's let's walk down a gospel because the more people we get in here, it means there's more money in the coffers. Yes. And the people out there ain't gonna they're not going to stamp the gospel. So we've got watered down and give them something that they want.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:49

Perfectly put. Absolutely correct. That's what happens, isn't it? Yeah. So we, we see this so much in this nation and across different parts of the world. And also, we need to be very careful, don't we? When So, coming back to the subject of when you see an evangelist or someone, I'm only using this terminology, because we is the quickest way to explain it saying, God has told me that the first 10 people give me 1000

Steve Valler: 34:14

that's just nonsense. I

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:15

mean, the question I've got for you, though, Steve, right. I know what we're going to say is that so many people get trapped into that because not that they're desperate for that

Steve Valler: 34:27

they had it how do you put it without being offensive? They're manipulating. It's manipulating. It's one of two things either they are weak in their face. They are no need to mature and they need to have their nose bloodied by such things. Yeah. Or the other thing is that they don't they, they want this themselves. Yeah, they want this themselves. Yeah. They will see this man, this man of God and he's got this and he's got that and all the rest of it. Well, I'd like that. He's got a nice big card got nice big ass. Yes. Got this and the kids go to private school? Yeah, I want that for me. I want that for you. That's what I want. And suddenly, you're sold out to riches and not sold out to God. Yeah, very true. Very true. And as I say, the other point is that you get, I mean, I know a fella that was so sold out to the nine year and cliam it that he lost his house. He literally lost his house

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:24

pretty uncommon story.

Steve Valler: 35:27

because he kept giving and giving and giving and giving and giving. And it was always a saying, Hey, give more, give more, give more. God bless you give more. Yep, yeah. And it's, it's a lie, because it's sewn in lies. And it's for noise. As I say, sometimes people have to go through these sorts of things, to have their, their nose bloodied, to understand. I am being lightened. And I have been silly to listen to these people, I need to reflect on the truth of the Scriptures, and see what God really is saying

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:02

here. So when it comes to when they say, God has told me, I'll give X amount. Your then given if they're asking for 1000, you're given because they're telling you to so you're not given out of a joyful heart. You're given out of pressure,

Steve Valler: 36:21

you're pressured. Yeah, that's the other thing that it says in the word. Honor is due to those germana ratio. And you're supposed to help those Eb talks about the Do Not muzzle the ox when he trades out of the corner. And, you know, yeah, you're supposed to help pay for, or pay towards those, that minister to you. Because that's, you know, Paul says, and I'm very much for supporting wherever you are, with regards to what you're learning, the place where you're fellowshipping it's necessarily God's put you there, and are very much for people putting around in your pocket and supporting Yeah, whatever is going on, and do it with a joyful heart. I am I believe that and I've always believed it. But it's not if any I mean, if the pastor I don't know you don't do it, but if if the pastor of any particular place where I was started banging on like that, you know, you got to give you gotta give you will be out the door. I'll be Yeah, I'll be walking away. Yeah, I don't you know, I, I am a happy giver. I'm a cheerful giver. Yeah, I don't need to be manipulated

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:31

No, no. But there is a lack of Mr. cracks. And it's a lack of sound teaching and doctrine. on giving because what we hear is the extremities, isn't it? of what we're talking about, there's no Can you can you remember? Can you remember being under a church through the years of being a believer where you fought? You're not there's a good teaching on giving and tithing and how it should be, because what we hear for radio stations, that they're selling things that it's like, it's it's like a it's everything to me at this moment seems to be about business. Money. Yeah, we know we got the pipe. We know money is a way of trading but my God shall supply all my needs according to his riches in glory. Yep. He won't let the righteous be beggars of bread. So God will always supply you, God will always make a way. But that takes faith, doesn't it? Steve, that takes five to trust Him, and to be a good steward of your time.

Steve Valler: 38:33

I mean, sometimes God takes money. He takes us out to an extreme time of trusting. I've never had a strain. Yeah, I've never had that kind of face. That God was able to test me in that way. Alright, my faith is not large enough, strong enough, deep enough however you would ever that God would say, right. Okay, so I'm going to put you there. And I'm really going to push you into a very difficult

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:03

now what I'm surprised at that, honestly, Steve, on any that's a different subject. Yeah. Well, thank you for being honest there.

Steve Valler: 39:12

And it's it's this area of you know, there are people that have been extremely tested by God. Extremely tested, but he's given them the ability.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:23

Yes. And so he equipped he enabled he takes us I love that part in Joshua, where he says, You've got a gun stand on the brink of the Jordan, the brink on the place of a non return you've got to go where it seems like you're never gonna, never gonna make it. You're almost you're out you've taken the step off the highest cliff. And you know, of any show of that God's gonna supply a ladder.

Steve Valler: 39:49

A wide path is a sign of the times when I've been unemployed, God has always supplied and he's, he's always watched over and he's never pushed me

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:00

More than you can bear. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Valler: 40:02

I mean, I've gone through some difficult times, but I can't, I can't look and say that, you know, God, God might be a Hudson Tyler and push me out to China or Iran or someone you know, I was i've i've not of that caliber, because God has not made me of that caliber.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:23

But I must say, though, Steve, God has used you in other areas. Well, yeah. But

Steve Valler: 40:27

I'm looking at the from the point of view of the testing. tested. Yeah, all of us. Every single one of us. If we're not testing them, there's something wrong. There's something wrong. We have to go through that that

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:39

kind of podium and quite interesting. You said, tested. from God. Yes. Some people could look at that and think that they will whip in me, because it's not going the way that they think it will go. So when we say tested God, God will when he take you to a place Yes, that can seem almost dark. Stretching, yes. bleak, yes. But there are certain denominations walk or cultures will go, the devil is really whipping me about today. But actually, God could have taken you to a place of where he wants you to trust in him. But the focus is always on can be a lot I should say on Lucifer is always trying to cause me trouble. But if we look at the classic one, his job, his job, right, definitely.

Steve Valler: 41:24

We have this being Satan, coming before God and say, it's all very well for this, Joe, you've been looking after him. But God picked the fight. He said, Have you seen mine? Have you seen him? Have you ever seen him? And Joe better goes through what he went through. In all he went through. God called him righteous. Yes. And he never said, it's the devil.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:53

Never, never. It's the devil. Wherever mummy escapes my mind, though that he slay me. I will still continue to praise him. Yes.

Steve Valler: 42:05

And the thing is, is it's it's either the you've got a choice, all right. It's either the sovereignty of God or the sovereignty of Satan. Yes, there are no two ways about that. And if you've got this idea, you know, again, this, this thing about where Jesus called Satan, the god of this world, he did so as a condemnation of the world. Yeah, and a condemnation of Satan himself, that people would sooner go after rich is and this and that, and so on and so forth, which Satan would quite happily give you to destroy you. Yes. But it don't make Satan the one that wrongs all over the earth? No, not at all. It's got rules in the kingdoms of men. You know, all right. He'll allow Satan to do whatever he does. But as I said before, the devil is God's devil, and he is, he is only allowed to do what God allows him to do.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:57

God is in full charge of Lucifer. Yes, Lucifer has no power or authority outside of what God allowed him to do.

Steve Valler: 43:05

And if you do a study on, again, especially sub areas of like, some like to convert 20, where God is condemning the false shepherds that he raised up in the principalities and powers to recover, and look after people, and they didn't, they didn't. But God has not removed them from that place. Paul says, we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, these principalities and powers are in rebellion against God. God's not taking them out or why now, because he's still working his purpose out through the way he chose to do so. Now we can, you know, we can either cave in and say, Oh, it's terrible, and we'll pay homage to the principalities and powers, which is basically what these people do when they say, oh, Satan is doing this and Satan's we're paying homage to him That's right because we're saying God isn't strong enough. God is in in is not in command. God is not the one who is controlling my life But Satan to suddenly on worshiping in around about why Satan

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:12

not God not God? Because I'm giving him a lot of airplay and give him a lot of time.

Steve Valler: 44:17

I mean, God God does something in my life, right? Something which causes strain and difficulty Yeah, okay. Consider it pure joy my brother was precise. So if I then Blaine seitan Yep. I am not being thankful to God Yeah, he's at work in my life.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:39

And job was thankful wasn't a he was a faithful man.

Steve Valler: 44:44

He couldn't understand what was going on understanding there. There were reasons why God chose to do do it at that particular way in job but we have to be very very careful I mean site has been given far too much credit. Yes. He's got to work he's given he's idea that people go Random I apologize because God has sent an earthquake or God has sent a volcano or God has seen that Cataclysm of what's going on at the moment. This man made climate manmade climate Gods

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:12

at work. God's at work. Save the Planet, by the way, yeah, terrific. Yeah. Okay, you're

Steve Valler: 45:16

going to save the planet. We're going to where we go, first of all proceeds. The one's called you always when

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:20

I'm going to plant some trees. Say,

Steve Valler: 45:24

but here's another thing. When are we going to save the planet will tax people? Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:28

exactly, I'm going to. I'm going to blow myself Tim 25. Tonight, and hopefully, we're saving the planet

Steve Valler: 45:37

is getting there. But but here's something this is. This is from isiguel. And it's the it's the point of the lamentation over the king of Tyre. Yeah, but it's talking about Lucifer or Satan or wherever you want. When we pick up you were the anointed jersey, verse 14, you were the anointed cherub who covers I established you, you were on the holy mountain of God, you walked back and forth in the midst of the fiery stones, you were perfect in your ways, from the day you were created to iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading, you became filled with violence within a new scene, right? Terminator? trading is Emporium. Okay. And we come up against that, in john two and verse 16. And it's the time when Jesus starts, he says she's first clearing out of the temple. And what he says is very interesting. And he says, and this is why when we look at this, we understand that he's going to go, he is put his finger right on the spiritual power behind it. And he says this. Now, the Passover, the Jews was and and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and he found in the temple, those who saw rock, swimming sheep, and dogs and money changes doing business. When he had made a whip, of course, he drove them out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen and poured out the changes money and overturned tables. And he said to those who sold bows, take these things away, do not make my father's house and House of merchandise. And net is the same term there yet for him. Right. Okay. And so basically what had happened there, yeah, this was where Satan had going. And he had convinced the people that if you do your trading, you'll get lots of money. And this whole it's trade trade. you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:30

right in right in the Lord's house, right in the Lord's house. And that is exactly what's going on today. Exactly.

Steve Valler: 47:36

What's going on?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:37

trading?

Steve Valler: 47:38

trading? Yeah, you know, if you if you give to God, this, he will give you that, suddenly, we're not we're back to we're back. We're trying to record. Exactly. You know, Lord, you know, if you let me win the lottery, the lottery of 10 million pounds, I'll give you a million pound brain. When you think about it, I'm sure I've got a million pounds,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:01

that I've actually confessed this but I've prayed that once or twice.

Steve Valler: 48:06

The point being

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:07

lord help me

Steve Valler: 48:08

it's, this is the nonsense. This is you see, we when we're in when we're in a place of difficulty, we can end up playing, praying the most stupid of prayer, we can definitely he's very gracious

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:21

for forgiving. He does. He doesn't answer and he does arms and he doesn't know. He but Lord, aka really, really get some food shifted there lord. You know, it's just silence. Because it's ridiculous. from me. It's silly, its silly language.

Steve Valler: 48:41

I just say we all we can all get things.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:46

Isn't it interesting how we've gone through the time and further given and you've taken a scene and we've looked at that and then we've spoke about Lucifer, and how it all connects together. Right back to the temple right back where Christ comes in. Make some whip flips it over. Yeah.

Steve Valler: 49:06

So this he says, you know, beware of the deceit of riches. He knows where all comes from the god of this world. He wants to dangle something in front of you. We're all open to that. Every single one of us we we think to ourselves, I don't want a few extra quid.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:19

Yeah, you know, call yuck. Yeah, Lord, come on, in the name of Jesus. So, you talk about stewarding stewarding is about being wise, isn't it? This is it's as simple as that. Be wise. Take a breath before we give or do anything. Lord, is this where you want me to give it this way you want me to give financially or time or effort way? Because it all comes into the complete circle doesn't have everything you want me to give me? Do you want me to give myself into this situation? Do you want me to give financial into this? Do you want me and actually what do you want me to do?

Steve Valler: 49:58

Youve hit a particular nail thing right on the head. Because sometimes we can see a need, and we feel that we should rush in and fill it. That can be very dangerous. And I'll give you an example of that. I used to worship at a church where there was a particularly chap who was a deacon, I think he's still there was a deacon. And I'm going back for 30 odd years. And I was talking to a similarity to get to become a dictionary. So Well, nobody else should do it. So I thought I'd better read Wow,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 50:29

are dangerous. filling the need

Steve Valler: 50:33

filling the need in net with that kind of attitude is wrong. Yes. And plus the fact if you've suddenly filled a gap, you might want to now stood in a place where God was going to send send someone. Yeah. So no matter what you see as a need, even in your fellowship, not you do what God commanded you to do? Yeah. Because God is in charge of that fellowship, when you might look at it and thinking so you know, we we could do with a, we could do a good band to come in here and and play our music, or I can play a piano. So I'll put myself forward and I'll do it. And then we can get the others along with it. Now you make sure you make sure

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:16

that so now we were very, very importantly, we're talking about you got to know that you've caught. Yeah, because there's so many people isn't that we've had a long chat and discussion about this, you've got to know that you've called because there's too many people self appointed, gap filling, and not realizing that you're not actually called to this, you're actually filling the gap that you shouldn't be in.

Steve Valler: 51:42

So it's very, very dangerous, because you don't know what God is providing. And why is allowed that to stay? Hmm, why is

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:51

there at Why is there a bit of a chasm? Why is there a bit of a vacancy? What is the purpose? What are you saying to us?

Steve Valler: 51:58

its up to us to seek Him and find out what I mean, I was praying about something. Excuse me. I was praying about something about a fellowship. And the Lord. Excuse me, I do apologize. The Lord in no uncertain way said I build my church. I know I know what I'm doing. Wow.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:23

That stops Yeah.

Steve Valler: 52:25

And so there's no reason why you can't add a seat on behalf it's a little more looking, you know, the need and so Lord, would you please supply the need? Because a sigh in no uncertain terms. He said to me, I built my church. I know what's going on.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:40

I can see in it. I said before even a roses in a rise it wrote itself in your eyesight. I'm aware of it. It's not for you to worry about.

Steve Valler: 52:52

No, it's not. It's not

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:53

and we take on or I shouldn't say we I possibly people leaders take on that. I better do that. Because with God, I'll do that I build a church. I went actually, he's responsible for his house. He's responsible

Steve Valler: 53:10

for building his church. And he's quite happy to do it. If we take the reins off and let him get on with it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:14

And when we start praying, Lord, can you supply Can you help because there is a need, then? Then we start to see don't wait. But when we start taking up the mantle on ourself on going, we'll do this I'll do this will appoint you will appoint you we think we think we think we're coming completely out of the will of the Father. Yes. And that is a very dangerous, very dangerous place to be very dangerous.

Steve Valler: 53:39

I don't know it might not seem that tithing and giving these A's sort of obtains in these particular areas, but it does because our whole life is in Christ. It's not it's not just their pocketbook.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:52

No. It's a complete life.

Steve Valler: 53:54

It's a complete life. And how do I give of myself to my Lord? Yeah, you know, we're slaves of righteousness. And many times I've prayed, Lord, I need to be commanded. I need to be commanded. I'm a slave of yours. I can't. A slave does not choose what to do

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:13

yet. No, I'm just thinking about that word slave that is a very heavy, very powerful, we know what that word means. Yes, it majority owned by somebody and you go, and we go and I write, actually, hello, Boris. It's site. We are owned by God.

Steve Valler: 54:32

Yes. He purchased us with the blood of his son. He owns us. He bought us we

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:35

have been bought with a price. Yes, a ransom. It's been done. We are slaves to righteousness. And

Steve Valler: 54:41

are you happy to be a slave of righteousness? If you're not then you need to sort something out? Yeah. But it's that that slave mentality, shall I say? That you come before the Lord and say, Lord, I need to be commanded. I need you to tell me what to do.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:57

And that that brings us to very Clearly too, what is your will for my life?

Steve Valler: 55:02

Exactly right? Exactly. Right. Exactly. Right.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 55:06

So this is just this is just the time has just gone. And we do pray, we know that God will, will speak through what Steve has brought to the table. But have you got anything to not to bring this to a close, but anything to stay? To say, Steve, because, you know, this has been a great as it always is a nice in depth, conversation free flowing. So what's your advice to give to someone? Regarding giving financially? Be very careful what you're getting into,

Steve Valler: 55:38

I would suggest that, first of all, you come before God and ask a question, or make an observation. Lord, I don't know that whether or not I'm a good steward. And I need you to show me. And then as God begins to open up, it's at that point you so will, would you guide me in how I give of my money, how I give of my time, where I am to give it how I am to give it to whom I am to give it? Because it really is a case of what's the old Anglican prayer of your own do we give you I can't remember that one. I don't know. I can't go. It's part and parcel of the liturgy. And basically, what they say is that you have given to us enough you're of your own do we give you basically, it's a case of whatever I've got, you've given me in the first place. Yes. So I need to know what you want me to do with it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:42

So it's on loan. It's it's ever given? And I'll give it out? Yeah, yeah. So I don't hold on to it.

Steve Valler: 56:50

No, no, we are all guilty of holding on to some holders in some way or Yeah, we are. We're all guilty in some way. Yeah. But we because it's an ongoing life with the Lord. We continue to seek into changes where he wants to change. Exactly. And this is why so when it comes down to being a we are a slave of righteousness. Are you happy being a slave? If you're not, my suggestion is then you need to get improved before God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 57:20

Amen. Thank you, Steve so much. We've had it. We will see you next week. We're getting out of it. Have a great afternoon. Good morning. Good evening, wherever you are across the world. We thank you so much. And may God keep you in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen. Thank you for listening to Elim church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.