Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:02

Hello and welcome to Elim church swanley, you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast. Good afternoon world wherever you are today we are joined in and we are with and good brother Steve is back with us. And we are recording this podcast and it is purely for me today because the title that he has brought is, are you struggling? This is absolutely glorious to me. We thank God for the Word of God. And I just want to ask anyone, and then Steve is going to do the same I believe is are you struggling? So I'm going to hand over to our brother it's good to have him back on the other side of the mic here and, and we thank God for him and on what God is doing through this teaching that he brings us time and time and time again. God is with us wherever you are today. And may the abundance of the Lord Christ go before you Steve, Good afternoon.

Steve: 0:51

Good afternoon.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:52

wherever we are, I say good morning. Good afternoon depends where people are listening to this back. But Steve is great. I'm so pleased that you're you're back with us now. He has his laptop with us today and we are going to hear some glorious text and God is going to speak directly through His Word to you. And to me, Steve is over to you.

Steve: 1:12

Okay, I did this a few weeks ago, I put some scriptures together, read them all in one go rather than go through the breaks of turning backwards or forwards in the Bible. So that the the message would flow. So you had an understanding this idea of struggle. We are supposed to be in a struggle, we are supposed to be in a conflict. We are supposed to be in a war. It's only Christians really that are really, if we look at the the parable of the seeds of the parable of the sower Have you would have it some fill on the wayside some fell among stony ground some of my mug stones and systems some ground and we know that those seem to fall on the wayside boats came along and at that site and we know what he was up to. The other one is that it Philip? Mung stone ground when conflict came up, which is term persecution for why then we have the album which is familiar, it's always been a strange one thorns and thistles. The word gets chucked because of the the cares of the world they're worried about saying you know, they want more money and so on and so forth. And then in good grades or good ground has to be broken and constantly broken. So that's the area of the the conflict. That's if we want to see the seed of God grogginess, we have to engage in this area of conflict. So, I'm going to start off, there's there's five scriptures, but I'll start off in two Peter 110. And I'll give you the rest of the Scriptures later. triplets 110 Simon Peter bondservant, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received the face of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of God and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, his depart divine power, has granted us everything pertaining to life and godliness. So the true knowledge of Him who called us by his own glory and excellence, through these he has granted us, sorry, granted to us, his precious, magnificent promises, so that by them, you might become partakers of the divine nature. Having a strike the corruption is in the world on account of lust. Now for this very reason. Also, applying all diligence in your face, supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence knowledge, and in your knowledge, self control, and in your self control perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours, and are increasing, they do not make you useless nor productive in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the one who lacks these qualities is blind or short sighted, haven't forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choice of view. For as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble. Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are that are above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Sexual minds on the things that are above not on the things that are on the earth. For you have died in your life is hidden with Christ in God. test yourself to see if you are in the face, examine yourselves, or do you not recognize this recognize this about yourself that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you fail the test. But I expect you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. I really conduct yourselves In a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you, or in my absence, I will hear about you that you're standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the face of the gospel, and in no way alarmed by your opponents, which is a sign of destruction for them, but salvation for you. And this true from God, for two years has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf, experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me. And now here to be in me. Consider it, consider it all joy, my brothers and sisters, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance, and endurance, savage, perfect result, so that you might be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. We also celebrate in our trip tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings perseverance, to perseverance, proven character, and proven character hope. And hope does not disappoint. Because the love of God's poor being poured out and within our hearts, through the Holy Spirit, who was given to us. So we start with Peter, saying, you know, pressing, and all these things, and then we find, well, how does this happen? Well, Paul, in conclusion, it's because of the trials that you're going through these trials, he was rejoicing, because it's a proven aspect of your life in Christ.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 6:27

So the text that you've read out very clearly tells me that there is without any shadow of a doubt, trials, tribulations stretching, walking by faith, and taken to a place of almost I can't bear this, yes. It is the opposite to what I see happening outside, and it can almost make you fail. I think the best way for me to explain this is not unsaved. But I don't fit in with the rhetoric and the crowd. Because they're going that way. I can't I don't fit in this church. I don't fit this. I'm not fitting in this mold. Do you think there's a lot of people across denominations that are feeling like this, but are too frightened to speak out?

Steve: 7:24

Yeah, I would think so. Because you see one of the problems, because we have lost sound teachers, we've lost people who can divide the Word of God in such a way that helps people to understand what he's both a necessity for trials, and the comfort that those trials bring. There's, every generation has to get this. If you go back to Bunyan, Whitfield, and Spurgeon and David Martyn Lloyd Jones, they'll be wild a stake in the church, every single one. If you go go right away back, every single one, I'm sorry that the church is in a state, it's terrible, you know, the churches got a wake up, and so on and so forth. So every generation has to claim the truth themselves. It's not passed down like a baton, you yourself have to find out what that is. What happens is with or should happen with good teachers, is they point out and say to you, are you in a struggle? Yes, I am. Good. That's where you're supposed to be. Yeah. I mean, Paul himself at the end of the first chapter of Philippians, he says, For you, for you, for to you, it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer on his behalf, experiencing the same conflict which you saw enemy. And now here to be in me, that's a very deep line. So it's not the conflict that Paul's having with regards to things outside. He's talking about things that are going on within so it's the inward fight the inward conflict, it's the M word fight. And the Philippians we're experiencing the same. And, unfortunately, over the past, probably, I would say, by going back as far as the 1960s, possibly before that, because there was this rejection of sound doctrine, people that there were people during the 60s optics doctrine, HD rice, if you got the similar sort of situation now we don't teach prophecy. It's all nonsense. You have to preach sound doctrine. What they were afraid of way back then, was the conflict between the Armenian stroke Calvinist positions that that were at loggerheads which, to some degree are still at loggerheads. And so they thought the way we can get away from this yeah let's not let's not go down your area of doctrine let's let's kind of try and go down the middle Why?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:07

So could we bring into that that that arena where the scripture says, war basically you're have what your itching ears are wanting to hear that a false message. And then the soundness has been long lost. And then suddenly you get this mixed bag of absolutely everything but, but it's not given a sense of fulfillment. So there's a lot of people feeling spiritually unrest within themselves, and they can't talk to their friends in in the church and their leaders. Because it doesn't fit with what they're saying,

Steve: 10:40

yes. It the struggle for the Christian has always been there. If you look at any of the the Apostolic Fathers even look at some of the church fathers, for whom some I've got little respect because of some of the things that they said. But if you look at them, if you go back to people like Whitfield, if you go back to people like Spurgeon, if you look at these people, he struggled, they struggled, they understood in this is that there's that term, we, we we have this treasure in earthen vessels and they understood there. They had great lack. They understood it. And it's almost contradictory. How is it that I have this faith in Christ, I have this belief, how is it that I have this yearning for him. And yet at the same time, I look at myself and I'm, I'm plagued with doubts, I'm like, which fears?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 11:45

Great way, a great way to put that. And so this is the conflict. So I have this great belief. I serve the God of Israel. But inside of me, I've got this fight going on with absolutely everything. Everything is. And it's a continuum, isn't it? It does, doesn't leave, you

Steve: 12:03

know, we never will, we cannot leave you. Because all the time we're in the body of it will be there.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:10

So it really is a safeguard to know that you are saved with all the struggles of your humanity of who you are, of the things that are going on around you which affect the inside you the decision you got to make. There's conflict, there's almost every day there's a there's things happening in life that is challenging you and your faith and saying God, this is really stretching me, I'm struggling. Yes, but the text that you read out, says Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters when you face trials of many kinds, because the

Steve: 12:45

idea of the trials is to bring us to that place of being able to persevere, and in that perseverance, apprehend that which Christ, as Paul says, to lay hold of Christ, for which he laid hold of me. And it's it's this is this battle, is this constant battle? Is this, I fall down and get up again. Then the I think the last time we met, I said then anybody that considers themselves Christians, and they don't have a struggle needs to consider the state of their soul. Are they really saved? I mean, we see here in Peter and also in in Paul, prove your calling. Yeah, Mike Sure. of your calling. Make sure that you are pulses test yourself. Yeah. All right. Yeah, that that testing is not one off? No. Alright. So one off is that testing is every day? What is my belief? What is my face? Is my face turn towards Christ? Am I trusting in myself? And then of course, we have this area when we look at the scriptures, and it says that when our hearts condemn us, he does not condemn us. Because we find ourselves in that condemnation. We cry out to God, it draws us to him again. Put your mind on heavenly things. The heavenly things of God, right. It's not the golden it's not the golden strings of the New Jerusalem. The heavenly things are him. Wow. Wow. And so we look to him. So in our struggle, yes, we look to Him, alright, there are times when we fail to do that we do. And we are ashamed of their sin. We are ashamed of what we do. But then, by the grace of God, He gives us the strength to get up and push forward.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:50

So this is this is a real this is a battle for a Bible believing believers because it's not what we see outside the walls. To be a Bible believing believer, a Christian, you are going to face trials that will put you into the arena of culture of lifestyle. And there are decisions that are coming our way that are already here that we have got to decide.

Steve: 15:16

Yeah, it's it. Yes, these things do come. But the battle is in the mind,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:22

the battlefield and

Steve: 15:25

you know, these arguments that rise up against God, Paul says, you know, that we have this warfare that we we pull down the stronger. So it's my thinking, it's my thinking, it's the way I view myself, it's the worldview God, yeah, it's the way I view the scriptures.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:44

So with that in mind, and we live in the world that we live in the world, is trying to grab me by my thinking and change my understanding. So that there is a battle by what the culture is doing, and what the government's are saying, I've got to be strong, because what they say, and what I see, does mess about with my mind,

Steve: 16:06

but again,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:09

that I try not to go down that road of not try when I'm in trust, but what I mean is, is what they are saying is conflict to what the Word says.

Steve: 16:18

So it says, but you know, when you go back 1000s of years, and it always has to be so I will never change, it will never change the governance side, I always go and direct opposite to what God says.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:28

So there is a there is a there is a struggle that I can find that the I have to be firm in the word. So I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I know my calling. And that's that Scripture says that you that you've referenced just a moment ago to Peter chapter one, verse 10. Therefore brothers and sisters make every effort to confirm your calling, and election for if you do these things, you will never stumble. So that so all the time we're on Earth, we've got the outside battle, of resisting what the world is saying, do not conform to the pattern of the world, but have your mind transformed by the renewing of Christ. So I have that, then I have the inward struggle. So there is every area of my life, I'm being challenged.

Steve: 17:23

Yes, as I say that the thing that we have as Christians to understand, whatsoever happens in the world will happen, and we're never going to stop, we're never going to stop that what whatsoever happens in the kingdom of darkness will happen. What we must do, what is necessary for us is this, we have to get ourselves, our mind, our understanding in line with the Word of God, we have to come to the place of trusting in Him completely. I mean, it Spurgeon isn't the only one. But many of them said, you know, when a man comes to the end of himself, he comes to the beginning of God, or when a man comes to the end of himself, that is when God begins to work. And so we all are brought to those places, we're all brought to the times of collapse, the Haven,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:16

exhaustion, exhaustion, mental, physical, at the end of off, give up, I can't see how I can do it, then we

Steve: 18:25

carry on a bit further. I mean, we, we again, and we again, and it goes on and on. And these are the trials these what comes in these are the things that turns towards God. Yeah. And if, as I say, there's, this is what I say, you know, consider it all joy. The reason they're saying that is not that they're masochist. And I think it's great fun. What they're trying to get at is this look, consider it joy, that these are coming at you because it's proving it's your truth. It's proving that you are of God, and

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:59

you are okay. And you are okay. Yes. And it is okay. Because you're in his will. Yes. And this is his will for him to be with you. But if if, but you've got to die to self Yes. And that that can be the challenge is the

Steve: 19:15

challenge. That is a challenge. We have beyond it self everything, to be honest with everything else falls into place. For instance, the the pressures of the world fall away, the more we are crucified. Yeah. All right, whatever the government says, becomes of No, no relevant No, no relevance, because we die to self. It doesn't matter what the celebrity say, we couldn't care less because we have died to sell. The world has nothing in us. We have no investment in the world. And so this is why I say that the the struggle is me. I have to make sure I die to self Yeah. Now these things. It's not that we're compartmentalized. It's that God He deals with these things in a in his specific way. We don't necessarily understand why is when we said this before, why is it not that you've dealt with these things, but you've not dealt with those things. And there's a reason and the purpose. And so we keep asking him to deal with those things. And those things, those things we keep hammering on the door for Lord, I don't want this. I hate this, please take it caught. I can see the way I think I can see the way I act, please deal with this. Just as a litmus test illustration of changes within my own self. I took my dogs out for a stroll the other day. And I actually beat the bushes to relieve myself, like toggle off. And I thought, Where have they gone? And I was walking by a river. And I said, Come on, we're all here. So one of them run back to me, but the other one would go down and she's is a mudslide. All right. She's going all the way down Splosh. And she's and she can't get out. I mean, I've got jack rattles. And she just can't get out. In stupid. So what went down to get and so what end up in a river?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:16

chest infection?

Steve: 21:19

You see, don't get in a truck truck. And I just was roaring with laughter. Oh, wow. The whole thing. Just hilarious. Yeah. All right. Yeah, I wasn't angry. I wasn't angry at the situation, I guess. But I was talking to my wife about this. And she said, Well, if you a few years ago, you would have hit the roof. And I would have done. So there was change. And so there's that change. But then And strangely enough, it's not that change came about not necessarily by me seeking for that particular chain that's seeking Jesus that's seeking the Lord more of him. Yes, quiet. And so it is there are these changes that occur when we don't even seek for the changes to occur.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:02

So the more we seek Him and go into the word and look to him and spend time with him, and focus on the author and perfecter of our faith, the more we we do this? Before I know it, there are changes in me that I didn't even realize it changed until this scenario happened within a minute. Under normal circumstances, X amount of weeks back, blah, blah, blah, I would have dealt with that in anger and frustration, when actually it's made me laugh. Yeah, there is a change, a complete joke, a complete change.

Steve: 22:39

You know, in prayer later on the day, I was I was saying, Lord, you know, and I recognize that in myself. So you know, if there have been a few years ago, Laura would have in a row. So I just thank you for what you've done. You've changed me you've you've changed me. And that it's when you look at those changes, that's when encouragement comes to carry on. Yeah. All right.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:59

But that's been a journey as an Oracle that's been over a period of time over your, your your moments walking with Him and seeking Him. And isn't that just glorious? How he does things, and we don't even recognize when it happened, and when or when that change was, but it was a clear, definite change. Yeah.

Steve: 23:21

If I might be a little bit controversial. Go. Over the years, there has been this push towards personal testimony. Okay. Now, whilst personal testimony, and I've just given yet a personal testimony, while personal testimony to a degree is helpful. It's not the gospel. Now, and there is a sense whereby people think, well, if, if I could just get to where that person was when they were saved, everything would be all right. Well, no, that doesn't work. That is just the beginning. And we have to understand if we go back to the parable of the seeds, when the seed fell on stony ground, it grew up. And Jesus said, they grew up and there was joy in their hearts. And it was wonderful, and it was marvelous, and it was terrific, and we were praising the Lord. But suddenly persecution came. And it died. It died.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:23

So all right, all the time.

Steve: 24:26

It would have told everything was hunky dory. It was good fun. But when things started to fall apart, then not

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:35

okay,

Steve: 24:36

I'm going to walk away. But you can you can see that to some degree in his own ministry. When he started talking about you must eat my flesh and blood. Yeah. And the Pharisees thought, hang on a minute, Scott, you're talking about cannibalism and what's going on. And he began to think he's sitting in john six So that's it, it's in john. And he begins to talk in this area of how it is that he is the true manna from heaven and so forth. And it says at that time, many left him many less. And he says to Peter, what about you? And Peter says, to whom else should we go? Who else has the word of truth Besides this, we have come to believe that you are the Christ, the Son of the living God. What Peter was saying was we we find your sayings just as difficult as them. We don't understand necessarily any more than Knighton. But we believe that you are the truth. Yes. And we believe that you are Messiah. And so no matter what you say, no matter how difficult it is for us to take in, we put our trust in you, we're staying, and we're staying with you. And so you, as I say, in that period of time, in his own ministry, whilst he was on the earth, you saw this rejoicing, which wonderful, we're dancing with him and Hallelujah, and Hosanna. And then suddenly what it all goes, pear shaped here. And so this is why the the parable of the seeds is is a very important thing. It's it's, it's a fundamental area. But again, when we come to the songs and systems, it says about how the cares of the world grow up and choke the word now that cares of the world can either be, you know, my business, my family, my money, my this, my that? I don't know if I told this story, I'm not sure if I did. There is a Jewish believer called me at some party. And he is in the base 40s. And he lives in Israel, but he travels and I've got an itinerant ministry. And he tells a story of one time when he went to, I think it was the Philippines. And chat came to meet him at the airport. He said, Yeah, lovely car, got in the car driving down. And msrt is a pre tribulation city believes that the rapture will come become before the tribulation. And he said, of course, things have been ramping up for all time. So I started talking to this brother about the law of return. And he said, something he said, which rather took me back. He said, What will I be doesn't come back just yet. Is it because I've just got my business in the place where I want it to be. I bought I bought a brand new house and we're, it's coming together. And I've you know, things are really good. And that gives you an idea. Yeah, of the things rising up and choking the word.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 27:59

Yeah, definitely. I hope you don't come back yet. Because everything is nice.

Steve: 28:03

Everything's nice. Everything's nice. Everything's nice. And, you know,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:09

this is amazing stuff.

Steve: 28:12

And so when you see these things occurring you your struggle, you want to get free of your flesh. Yeah, you want to get free of your sin. You want to get free of, of the old man who took him around. Yeah, you want to get free of the the thought patterns which still come up, you want to be free, at least. This is the conflict that Paul is speaking about, which he says You see, in me, anything you this is not the conflict of the persecution from the outside. This is the conflict within every Christian

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:48

is an internal thing. It's an internal thing. Yes. And most of the time, nobody really knows the real true conflict that you are going through. They could never understand it.

Steve: 28:59

Because unfortunately, I don't know what it was like 70 years ago, because I was only bombed so many years ago, but in my own experience, as a Christian, I found it difficult to talk to anybody about the conflict because I found nobody that I could trust are so there's a trade. Well, of course. Yeah. I mean, when I have spoken about it, it's actually been thrown back in my face.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:24

Yeah, you actually made when

Steve: 29:28

I was told I was I'd lost my sanctification. Wow. Which is rather stupid thing. Because it well, it's not mine. It's him who says him or is me. But because of the things that, you know, yeah, tried to deal with and so forth. I was told I'd lost my sanctification. And so this in enak showed in that particular person, a great immaturity a great misunderstanding of the conflict within the Christian He was in actual fact he was a pastor. He was supposed to be no different.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:07

And so, so there was no encouragement. It made you feel worse. Yes, it didn't help you in the slightest. And it possibly dropped confusion in the accelerate dijo.

Steve: 30:19

say this, strangely enough. All I learned from it was I was Be careful who you trust. Okay. This was the sense I got from God. Whilst he's whilst I would say that the devil tried to use that to condemn me, actually didn't, because I understood what he was saying about sanctification wasn't biblical. So I just knew it was a Nazi. Right. Now, it could have failed me It could have used it. But fortunately, I was in a position to understand that he was talking about back in the day. Yeah. And

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:03

that is a church leader. That is a part of whatever title they had. Yes. So that also tells us a number of things, doesn't it? How, I don't know how many people might agree with this, how, within maybe the West that we are quite biblically literate, illiterate when we when we look at that a lot on way. Yes.

Steve: 31:25

And again, this this, this goes back to I again, my suggestion is back to the 50s and 60s, when it was decided that we would not teach sound doctrine because they were afraid of the conflict. They were afraid that we were there was going to be division. Well, unfortunately, I don't read their Bible because Jesus says I've come to bring division. Yeah, there we are. Yeah. Now, personally speaking, the way I view my scriptures, I would be called a Calvinist, although I am not, I don't hold to a lot of the reformed position, certainly on Israel, certainly on the area of the millennium, certainly on the area of both dispensation and, and the current position that I take. But there's a lot there that I do, hold to, right. I do hold to the fact that I do not believe a man can choose his salvation. I believe that it's God that chooses my believes base within the area of john six and john 10. The father draws the SAT. Yeah, you know. And I do understand where it says that God would the all men would be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. But the fact is, not all men will. Again, we come down to the Thessalonians. Later Paul says, Be careful to whom you trust yourselves because not all men have feis. And so these are the these are the things that we have to deal with. And so we have to come to this understanding

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:01

that we need wisdom, discernment. Because it all breaks into this, doesn't it? He does, as you said, Who can I trust with this area of conflict that I have?

Steve: 33:12

I mean, I've got no problem in talking to someone that might be an Armenian. Okay. All right. But what I've traveled towards summaries of palladium, that's another there's another thing. But there's a sense of if salvation has come to that person, that person is my brother, it doesn't matter whether he believes in an Armenian way, or a Calvinist way it's got let's end there. They are my brother, how are my brother or sister in Christ? Yes. And as such, I am here to help them as much as I can. The problem again, going back to one of the reasons why they wanted to get rid of doctrine was because they saw it was divisive. And couldn't deal with it. Yeah. They couldn't deal with it. It was a case of either or, well, okay is either or, but but I can't dictate to a man now he would believe now. And if he is trusting in Christ, true salvation, and that salvation is true in his life. It doesn't matter whether he believes what I believe, with regards to a theological understanding fact. So you teach the truth. You express the truth as you understand it to be. But every Christian, every single Christian, must come to an understanding of their own understanding of what the word is. There are some people that can't handle the business of God's choice. I hate it make it revolts them. But they're safe. They have place. I mean, where's he couldn't stand. He wrote a book about I can't take this contract that I can't believe just can't believe that.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:51

He was saying, Yeah, so if God has to reveal destiny, God has to change

Steve: 35:00

Knowing full full Okay, there's no I get it right? Well, as you know, you didn't you know, you know, but you're saved.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:07

So that's the most important thing, isn't it out of all this was

Steve: 35:11

actually the struggle. That's the point it was a struggle to prove to yourself

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:14

that the homicide I belong to I am Yeah, I belong to him. Yes. Yeah, that that is the challenges.

Steve: 35:21

I mean, obviously there are times when certain areas of Scripture, certain beliefs within scripture come in, we have to believe the fundamentals, we have to believe that he was conceived within the womb of a virgin by the Holy Spirit. Yeah, that he was born without sin, than indeed where he was without sin within womb. He was born without sin. He lived a sinless life. He died to death for us not for himself. His righteousness was imputed to us. He took our corruption upon him. We are born again of the Holy Spirit. And we are sustained by that same Spirit. Amen. And you know, all right, if you want to breathe, Believe, believe in pre tribulation rapture, carry on post, fine, you don't want to believe it, it's fine that I mean, personally, I don't have a problem when actually it's quite clear in there. But even that it's those things aren't critical.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:23

So the critical thing here is work out your salvation with fear and trembling. And look at your calling that work out.

Steve: 36:29

It's a spiritual conflict. You have to dig in, you have to go deep, you have to dig into yourself that that's that's how you out work. That's that's the that's the conflict here. And that is a lifetime. Yeah. That that working out your your salvation with fear and trembling, is exactly this component. Exactly that conflicts and as you say, it goes on, it never stopped.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:52

They'd never go on. And in that scripture, it says, confirm your calling, and election confirm it. Yes, Mike,

Steve: 36:59

all in one, and someone says make it more sure. or making sure you see it. We come back to the person that says, you know, he had he had a wonderful revelation of Christ and came to a place of salvation. And that was a marvelous And off he goes, but if there's no following life style change, yeah. Then you have to consider are you part and this is part and parcel of what both Peter and Paul are saying here. Check yourself out. Do you belong? Don't worry. I mean, how many times, Lord, you come before the road? And you've seen Yes, you think I can't? I cannot be part of you. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense. I can't be part of your phone like this. I can't,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:53

I can't live like it. And not so

Steve: 37:55

much. I can't live like it. Of course, that's part of it. But how is it that I can do this? How can I say that I belong to you, it doesn't make any sense. And then you wrestle, we've got to wrestle with God. And then you find that he actually does bring comfort through a word through reading the Bible, even in a time of prayer. And as you pry the understanding comes, but this is part and parcel of the warfare. You don't give up your aloneness either. The Press keep going. And you press refresh on you persevere.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:33

endurance, endurance, yes.

Steve: 38:36

Do you hate your sin? Yes. Well, that's a good thing. If you don't hate your sin, there is a problem. We've got an issue, you've got an issue. Yes,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:44

Serious issue.

Steve: 38:46

I'm going to get we will have to deal with different sins in our life. Some people have got anger, some people got greed, some people have got lost. Some people have, like all sorts of stuff. And depending on how they react to the falling, falling away, or falling back, or however you will, it gives an indication of the condition of their soul in truth. Do you hate what you do? Yes, yes. Can you pray the prayer? Lord, I don't care what it costs, but I need to be free of this. Now, if you can pray that prayer, really and truthfully, honestly, honestly, and truthfully, I don't care what it costs. I don't care what you do. I don't care what I have to go through. But I need to be free.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:33

It has to be broken and gone and extracted. Yes, because I can't live like this now more

Steve: 39:39

precisely. And if you can pray that prayer with all truths, then you're in you're in a very helpful life

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:44

we're in a spiritually healthy

Steve: 39:47

if you can't pry it out is when you have to start wondering, do I belong? Am I really part of this? Am I really in Christ? And it's the honest answer that brings freedom If you say no, I'm not you can do Was it strange for God, Lord, I fought myself. I have not been part of you when I thought I was. I've not been part of the church. I've I have not confessed Christ, truly.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:13

I've been living the life. I've been living a lie. There's some deep things. But they are freedom. Yeah, I

Steve: 40:20

mean, there's there's the conversation, you know, God never shuts the

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:23

door. No. And it's good to have a free conversation for these podcasts and know that this is scripturally based, challenging, and I've every level, and the Scripture is correct in everything. I'm the one with the error. Yes, I am. I need the I need to be changed. I need to be broken more. I need to be challenged more. And I need to be more open and honest with myself.

Steve: 40:53

Yes. Oh, yes. That's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:55

a great place, isn't it? When I'm honest with myself, okay. Well, this

Steve: 40:58

is why Paul and Peter say test yourself. Look at yourself. Have a good look inside. This isn't a psychological guy. This is this is am I do I belong? Is my confession true? Is my confession true? I've asked that question to myself. And before God time and time and time again, is my confession true? Please make my confession. True

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:27

confirmation. Please explain to me Yeah, I

Steve: 41:30

can't. I cannot sanctify myself, is why we have occasion. Yeah, well, I cannot sanctify myself, but I need to be sanctified. I know in the word at some points, he does say sanctify thyself. But what that means is to remove yourself unto God to seek Him so that He might performing you that which he wants to do, and he wants to design he has the desire to do and it's this need to draw closer to Him, this desire to draw closer to Him. Now, here's the thing. These are a sigh. There's a text that says Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Yeah. And as that has been used over the years, manipulating many people to say basically, what it means is this. If you do like in God, you'll give you the big house. If you delight in God, it gives you the big car, if you delight in God, who do listen to that

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:26

no, doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that doesn't mean

Steve: 42:29

what it means is if you delight yourself in the Lord, the desires that you find in your heart, are the ones that he is giving you that you might seek Him for. So what do I seek Him for? purity? holiness, cleansing, yeah. Constant sanctification. These are my desires, I desire to serve. But there again, I must only serve where he called called me. You can't. You can't yourself, you can't choose your service. You can desire to serve. And you can speak come before us, oh, Lord, I'd love to do this and do that. But the only one that can bring it about is God Himself. Yeah. And so these desires which are in you, these are holy desires. Yeah. So you delight yourself in the Lord. And he gives you these desires. These are the desires of the true Christian, I want to be holy, I want to be true. I want to be clean. I want to be free of the filth and the corruption offlane. And now I want to see this old man die.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:33

So different to the way the manipulators manipulate that scripture. And as Steve has said, about your delight self in the Lord, and you'll have all the material gain, to launch rubbish, rubbish. Delight yourself in the Lord. And first, as Steve has said, you know, it's so critical for a believer to delight themselves in the Lord. You know, and that teach him what the prosperity gospel is made a lot of people really question things. How comes I'm delighted myself in the law, but I'm still in debt. I haven't got the car. I haven't got this. I haven't got that because they get the wrong thing. You're seeking the wrong

Steve: 44:14

thing? Because those desires have not been put in your heart by God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:18

Definitely not. So there is a challenge out there, isn't there? A strong challenge I feel like never before is to keep in the word Yes. And the more we keep in the word, the more the word opens us up. And we can be more truthful with him and be more open with him. And as these said, Do we have the strength to pray, strip me, mold me, melt me, whatever the price is to do whatever the price

Steve: 44:50

is, whatever it takes, however you need to do it. Do it. Now. I would say this Why can I pray that prayer? Yeah, I can pray that prayer because I trust God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:06

So then we find we're in to a real strong trust. And we without any shadow of a doubt, we trust. Yes. Trust is

Steve: 45:15

key, as I trust him to do what he wants to do in my life. I trust him to do it in the way that he wants to do it. You know, Lord, I want your will to be done in my life. It's not that I want his will. It's not that I want the world. At the end of it. I want it worked out, according to His will. Well, yeah, I want him to choose how he, how he would work in me. I want him to choose how he would do it. I'm not going to tell him what he should or shouldn't do.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:44

So I'm not going to give him a plan of what I want. No, no, no, no, I've torn the plan up, I put it in a shredder my plan? Yes. And I've said, Your will, your will

Steve: 45:53

be done completely, totally and utterly. I don't care how you do it. I don't care what it is. I don't care where it happens. You are my God. And you are my Lord. And I desire to serve you in the fullness of that,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:07

that Steve, that is like that's making me laugh with fear, to pray a prayer like that, whatever the price is, yes. I am willing to do this.

Steve: 46:21

Yes. But you see, this is the strange thing. You say whatever the price is.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 46:26

But there's no price. We only I only think there's a price because of the weight that I might put on material and external stuff that I might lose A, B, C and D, the creature comforts of things, or whatever that may be, which are the phones or the vessels. I have no choice. But to

Steve: 46:46

pray that prayer. You have a choice? Yeah, okay. All right. All right. But the point being is that true heart will prior? Yeah, it's I trust God to do what He wills as He wills when he wills to work out in my life. Yeah. And I don't have the problem of saying that. Because I know that I can trust him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:15

There's a lot in that, because I can trust him. Yes. So when we get to that position of saying, I trust you, that is a major breakthrough, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Because we hand everything over surrender. And given him everything, Lord, I'm yours. I really, really am. But there's a difference between the lip service for the for the people surrounding me and just the private moments

Steve: 47:41

is but give me again, this this isn't necessarily a this isn't necessarily a prayer I could press 35 years ago. It's a prayer that God by His grace has brought me to a position of being able to pray so and being able to say, Yes, I trust you do whatever you want.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 47:56

So it comes back to what we say quite a lot is that it's a journey. Yes. It's not a five minute one that this is a lifetime, a five minute or a five year, six years. So however long it is, it is a journey of me following him, and allowing him to work everything through me. So yeah, we know God does things instantly. Or it might be a long process. But do I have the trust in Him? to lean into him?

Steve: 48:28

Yes. And the thing is, if you if you start praying that prayer, and you think I can't pray this, the way you deal with that, then you say, Lord, I find that I'm not trusting you.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:39

It's quite interesting that you said that,

Steve: 48:40

and I would ask for your forgiveness. And I would ask that you deal with me so that I can come to that place of trust. You don't stop you don't get bogged down because you've hit a wall. You come to an understanding, I don't trust God, I don't trust. I'm honest about this. He already knows I'm not hiding and you know, he already knew it. He already knows. So why then come before him and say, Lord, I cannot pray this prayer. As much as I want to. The reason I can't pray this prayer is because I don't trust you. And so I would ask you to forgive me. I would ask you to work upon me so that I can come or you can bring me to that place that I can pray that prayer.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:18

Goodness gracious, this is getting deeper. This is great.

Steve: 49:22

But this is the thing with the Christian and Christian should never hit a wall that he should always understand that God is there and he always knows what you're going through. And he You can't hide anything

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:35

from him. You can't hide anything right

Steve: 49:37

so yeah, we're mortified, Lord, I don't you we can't we are mortified. Ron, I don't trust you. I I don't I don't as much as I declare my trust in you. I find that I don't trust you and I'll proceed on Creative Please forgive me and help me change me change me so I can pray this prayer. In truth.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:54

Steve, I've got to say that it's really that really bold. That is really bold of you. And that is very discerning of you, and that is very powerful for you to say, being recorded. And where we push out so far is that I don't trust you. That is a very interesting line. Because we can feel this way. But we are frightened to say things like that, because of what where we've come from the teachings and the denominations, but the pure openness, that relationship that you have with God is so strong, that you are free to say that, because you are sound and you are solid in the word. But there are many out there that wouldn't even dare think a thing like that. Or even think about saying a thing like that, Lord, I can't trust you. I'm frightened of trusting you. I mean, fear God help me. But what a breakthrough line to say, because he's already and he's already seen, and he already knows. Yes.

Steve: 51:03

So what am i fearful of? Quite well, he's not gonna reject. And he's, no, he's no, no, because again, this is this is part of the conflict. I've seen this in media, I don't want it. How do I do it, I confess it before him is is a sin. So we spoken about this about fear people that I'm afraid on about what to do? Well deal with it as a sin. Lord, I find that I'm frightened of I've got a great deal of fear. And I'm find all sorts of things and it doesn't make any sense. And, and it means that I'm not trusting in you. And if I'm not trusting in you, I'm calling you a liar. And if I call you a liar, and I'm sinning and Lord, help me, I don't want to do this, please help me bring me to this place where I don't fear anymore, because it means I will trust in You.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:44

Wow, goodness. And so the

Steve: 51:47

this is the thing that when you're there in that prayer closet, yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:53

That moment, it,

Steve: 51:55

you must never be strike, you must never be afraid to express yourself before God. It's necessary. The one thing that is necessary in your prayers is total honesty before God,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:08

complete. Freedom to talk to him. Yes, complete honesty. Yes. And when you get to that there is such a trust to the Father's heart, that he's never going to reject you. He that is a breakthrough moment, isn't it in someone's life, to be able to feel the freedom that I can speak to my god as openly as I should, because he's already seen. And he already knows, of course, this is this is very profound is a very prophetic, this is very powerful. This this podcast that we're doing here. And, you know, what, what, of what, what hard? I will how, how can we incur it? How can you encourage your brother or sister that saying, what you're saying there, Steve, is I've never I've never heard that before. In the church environment I've been in? How would you encourage someone that is frightened to speak out because of it's against everything? How do you guide someone that has been caught and trapped in an environment where I can say to the pastor, I don't trust God?

Steve: 53:19

Hell, like I want them, I'd point them to the garden, who gets 70 praise the Lord, right? When he was in the garden of guest seminary there, he was weighed down. He had such a pressure on him. Yeah, and I can, I can't guarantee it. But I would imagine the kind of things that were coming at him in his mind is you kind of trust this God, He will not write you up from the dead, you will not find the glory that you had with him before, you will not be able to deal with the sins of these people, you will not be able to go through this. In actual fact, when you get to that point on the cross, you will run away, you will cast off your cross, you will not be able to get through this. And you can imagine the law dealing is dealing with this stuff. It's coming at me and it's coming at him. And he's crying out, Lord, give me a strength. And if possible, let this cup pass from me. But not my will be done, but your will be done. And there's the crux, these things are coming at me. Yes. You know, if we come back to zero Peter, you know, Jesus said, What do you think is we're no different from them. You know, we find out what you have to say is hard, but we've come to the understanding that you are the Son of the living God, you are Messiah and, and truth is found in you. And God, Christ fires the same thing within his own. He says, Lord, help me, help me. There's this, this this pressure upon me to walk away. There's this pressure upon me to to walk away. That's the thing is here's the thing, that even if he'd walked away, even if he not died for us on essence, there was no one there condemning.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:56

very profound, very powerful. No One could condemn it follow would never have condemned. No. All right? Yes. Okay.

Steve: 55:06

Because he chose to do something. And that was it. But he chose to do what his father required of him. Okay? And he wrestled and wrestled and wrestled and wrestled so that when he came to that point of the cross, he defeated his enemy in the garden. He defeated the pressure. He defeated the temptation. He defeated it all there in the garden, so that when they came and arrested him while and when he went through what he went through his victory, his victories, victory was already done in the garden, his victories victory was in the garden, so the cow victory is him on the crop

Reverend Ben Cooper: 55:50

him and across the garden, is the place is in

Steve: 55:55

essence, and we all in our own. Go through that. We do we do we know. And God does not despise that's the other thing that you must understand. God does not despise us. No, all right, he does not despise us. He doesn't despise our weaknesses. He doesn't despise our struggles. He doesn't despise the fact that we come before him and Korea I do not trust you. He doesn't despise us face things. But how Jesus gives us the strength I mean time and time and time again over the years. I found I've been given strength when I didn't want a strength I would have been happy to walk away but I found that I couldn't because he gave me a strength to continue and Lord I don't want this I don't want to carry on our law please.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 56:42

Oh, I love it. This is good this is this is beautiful. This is beautiful. God is with you wherever you are God is with you we have Steve you've really brought some stuff some beautiful text you know we've I don't know how in the world we can ever finish but it will never finish you know God is always moving. And the simple line three words that Steve bought us at the beginning is are you struggling Are you struggling so much has been said so much prophetic words have been said so much biblical goodness I can't even find the words that you know so much power has come from this recording today and we thank God for for Steve life and and you know we're not lifting Steve up but he's been obedient to the Word of God. And he has been completely an absolutely without any shadow of a doubt. Honest. Beyond the the human word of understanding of honest. up that's really refresh me today. Brothers and sisters, wherever you are across the world. You've been listening to Steve viola, and it's been absolutely fantastic. We'll be back again next week around the mics wherever you are. Can you just share this stuff out? Are you struggling? Are you struggling? The word got the answers. Thank you, Steve. May God bless you. And may God be with every one of you. In Jesus name, Amen.

Close: 58:11

Thank you for listening to Elim church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa, mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.