Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:02

Hello, and welcome to Elim church swanley, you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us today. Wherever you are across planet Earth. It is a Monday and it is around about 330. We are catching up with our good friend and my lovely brother, Steve valla. And we are just going to record this little podcast, I feel that my spirit is going to be quite a deep one. He's given us a great title. And it's and the title is for everyone out there. Are you afraid of losing your salvation? Very interesting subject very interesting indeed. So we welcome you wherever you are. We thank you so much for downloading all and everything that we are doing. In the world of podcast. It is phenomenal the amount of downloads that we are getting, but it's so good to have Steve with us. He's had a bit of a break. And we're back in the recording room. You may hear just for your reference, you may hear a bit of a noise. It's just outside. He sees wouldn't like falling off. But he's not it wouldn't leg. It's the scaffolders. We have major works going on. So this is wrong, this is real. And we are straight in no editing whatsoever. This is just live as it comes out again. God bless you, wherever you are, Steve, thanks. Let's go.

Steve: 1:12

Okay. Good afternoon, everyone. I wanted to look at this for a little while. It's Hebrews, I'm going to be reading from Hebrews five, seven, through two 610. And the the text within Hebrew chapter six, which tends to frighten the living daylights out of so many people runs from verse four, through to eight. And it's the go to text to prove that a Christian can lose their salvation. And that the problem that whenever this is given, nobody can ever give, how you can maintain salvation, they just say, Oh, you can lose your salvation, and then leave it at that. So I'm going to read from five to seven reading this amount, put the scene perspective, we've got it. So just a little bit of background on Hebrews. Hebrews was written around about 6566 ish, subsets little bit before some sort of way after, there's indications that the Hebrew Christians were suffering, some form of persecution. Possibly, it seems from the text that they were living in Italy. So it could have been Niroshan persecution, or at the outcome at the outworking of that. But it could also be just local persecution from the people because the Christians weren't just persecuted by governments. But they were persecuted by the locals. Yeah. So anyway, in the days of his flesh, he offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying, and tears to the one able to save him from death. And he was hurt because of his piety. Whoa, he was a Sunni learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect to be kind to all those who obey Him, the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. concerning him, we have much to say, and it is hard to explain since you have become dull of hearing, fellow by this time, you ought to be teachers, you have neither going to someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God. And you have come to me milk and not sorry food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice has this sense is trying to discern good and evil. Therefore, leaving the elementary teaching of Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith towards God of instruction about washings and laying on of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits, for an in case of those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good word of God, and the powers have the lights to come and then have fallen away. It is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they are going crucify to themselves the Son of God put into open shine for the ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful so those for whose sake it is also tilde receives a blessing from God. But if it yields songs and systems, it's worthless and close to being cursed, and ends up being burned. But beloved, we are convinced the better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way, for God is not unjust, so as to forget your work, and the love which you have shown toward his name in having ministered, and instill ministering to the saints. So we have this, for in the case of those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and so forth. And people have wrestled with this over many years. So one lots I did. One of the explanations for this is that it's that it's an argument in ridiculousness, I can't remember exactly. There's a Latin term for it, and I can't remember. But it just can't happen. So this is ridiculous. As I said, No, no, no, no, no, this proves that Christians can lose their salvation. That you know, even if you're born and going, you can lose your salvation, because he says here about being enlightened and testing the gifts and so on and so forth. But we have to hold the scene in context. Now, whilst this is talking to the Hebrews, it talks to us, it's important for us to understand this, because we're coming to a point in time, when because we're approaching the end. Yeah. It's this particular chapter within this particular book, is going to be very, very necessary for me to understand the Hebrews. If Romans is the, the highlight of theology, then Hebrews is its partner, and they're very high. theologically, it's one of the reasons why some people thought that it was Paul that wrote Hebrews. But over the years, from even from the sort of first century, the early fathers didn't think that it was him. But nobody knew. Right, okay. So we have to look at this and asked the question, can I, as a Christian, only going, by God, by the Holy Spirit? Can I lose my salvation, and we have to understand what it is to lose one salvation. To lose one salvation is basically to be unborn, again, if one is born again, in Christ, because one confesses Christ, and he's saved by Him, and one is born again.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 7:39

So we're referring to Nicodemus and Christ when they have that conversation, we had that process. Yeah. What about the reverse? Yes.

Steve: 7:46

So we have to understand what this is saying. If we hold to the certain ideas that people have, that it means that not only are you unborn, but you are returned or not returned you, you you're, you become a in a condition worse than you were when you saved. The Holy Spirit is drawn out of you completely removed. Yeah. Or he removes himself. And there is absolutely no way back. You There is no room for repentance, no room for repentance. So that's basically what we're talking about it, it's it's very, very necessary for people to understand the power and the strength of what that statement means. And all the crying out and all the

Reverend Ben Cooper: 8:50

beseeching God is not going to bring it back. It's not going to bring it back. You've lost it and it's gone. It's extremely frightening. It's to the point of,

Steve: 8:59

but with loads to the head, yeah. It's very, very difficult to find

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:09

a foothold.

Steve: 9:10

Now, it's very difficult to find certain organs within scripture that that, that some mindset will make a bold statement. I mean, there are challenges within the world. There are warnings of course there are because God uses both encouragement, warning. He who has begun a good working you will form it until the Lord Jesus Christ. This is an encouragement, what I started off and

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:33

finish.

Steve: 9:34

But then you have other warnings, to be careful how you live as a Christian, to be careful how you hold the Word of God. Be careful, be careful. And it's the the true the desire of the true Christian is to be heard. Really, yeah, to be purged of

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:04

sell offs of sin,

Steve: 10:07

the desire to find oneself, able to honor God, to love Him with all our hearts, or minds, or souls where their strength to love our neighbor as ourself. And our desire grows to move more and more away from the world, more and more towards the things of God. So,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 10:34

so if we used to pull Romans out the bag a second says nothing can separate us from the love of God, that is in Christ Jesus. And well, we know that salvation is a gift. Yes. So, and we understand that God has called God has chosen God as God has got us before the very beginning of time, he has decided to save us. Yes, that's correct, isn't it? Yes. So this is a this is a really sticky, this is a glory one. So we cannot, we cannot lose our salvation. I don't believe so. But I kind of have to we have to add, we have to have to unpack and address. And I don't like use the word but I would just say, ransack and to get the word and to, to pull out to dig into excavate the word and to get in there and say, God, what, what are you saying about this? Because this this is beyond? This is beyond? I would, I don't know how if if I can't believe that we can lose our salvation, as we're saying. But even the thought of it makes me feel like giving up. Because what would, how would I lose it? What would be the trigger point of me losing it, I won't want to come out the house, I won't even get out of the bed, my brain would need to be erased because of my thinking, my understanding my weaknesses, my earthly desires, the carnage that sometimes I find myself in, I must have lost it.

Steve: 12:09

This is the problem with this particular thing. Because if we take it in it's bold statement yet. That if we have fallen away my suggestion in just basic reading of it is that every Christian has fallen in some way all sin because we're all sinned and fallen short of glory. We either trust in the promises of God that he keeps us. Yeah. Or we have to find a way of keeping ourselves. So for instance, is the scripture that says, None shall snatch you out of my hand. Okay, raise God. But then I've heard people say, oh, yeah, but you can select yourself out of Christ's hands. Now, there's no, there's no. There's nothing within the text that allows for that, because when he says no one, yes, he means no one. I must be yes. Oh, one.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:09

Thank God, no one.

Steve: 13:11

So if I really am in the hands of Christ, the Son, and God the Father, and no one can snatch me out of his hand. Yeah, that means no one.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:23

No one. No one. And then then we talk about the scripture that we quoted that all have sinned and fallen short of His glory. Yes. So there is no one worthy of salvation is no, no, no, no, it's not. I mean, it's not even what they were talking about. We can't even do it by works. We call

Steve: 13:42

it this more like this, really, more goes towards Romans seven, you know, recommend that I am. So there

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:50

are more texts that support that we cannot rather than than we could lose it. But there's still this area of warning. But if God has given the gift of salvation, with the gift giver, take the gift back

Steve: 14:08

know that you see it depends on your how you begin.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:15

Yeah. Where are you? Yeah, all of this.

Steve: 14:17

If he has chosen us, his son, yeah. Okay. Then he will maintain us and keep us to the end because he knows the end from the beginning. Yeah, right. Yes. And so he will keep us and He knows how flawed we are. And he knows how irresponsible we can be and how disobedient we can be. But he has given us the spirit to chastise us, to strengthen us and to keep us going. Now, in that. I think it's in the Romans eight, where it talks about the it's really because otherwise we're going to get all mafia.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:00

This is a this is a great conversation. It's deep it's in, but it's packed. It's true. It's Biblical. Alright, so there we go, what we got Romans, yeah, Romans I assume he

Steve: 15:12

for new He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that he would be the firstborn among among many brethren. And those whom He predestined, he also called, and these whom He called he also justified and these whom He justified, he also glorified now, we're coming, we are now going to start paddling into the area of God's choice a man's free will, yeah. Okay. Now that particular text men, many people would say, our, what God's done is looked down the timeline, a tunnel of history or prehistory earlier when it or future and seen Steve, me, I am going to choose God. So he chooses me first, which are fine. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense to me. But there we go, look, but let's follow this through. So I, he knows I'm going to choose him. So he chooses me first. Now the problem that I have with that, is that sinful man does not seek God. I mean, Romans three is clear. It's very clear highlights, none seek God. And if we want an if we want an illustration of that, in the time that we live with the global catastrophes that we're facing here, how many people are banging on that door to come in? Find Jesus? No, no one?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:40

No one? No one? No one? No

Steve: 16:43

one? So what we're living in is an illustration of that. Romans three, that none?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:50

God calls God calls and God creates. Yes. So that is done. Even an insurance policy is already done. It's already written, yes, it's already. It's already carved. It's split. It's done

Steve: 17:07

yet, but to readdress this business about God looking down time and seeing me and I was gonna choose him. So I want to choose, because I'm bigger. And one of the problems that we've got with that is, Jesus says to His disciples, you think you have chosen me, but I have chosen you.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:24

That's that, to me, that is such a anchor point. To know that, thank God, it's not me. It's all about him. Because as we have said, and we've looked at so many times, I am not capable of choosing this god.

Steve: 17:41

No, nothing that angers me. And it angers me because I want the reason it angers me is because it dishonors God. It's okay for God to choose. Noah. Abraham, Moses, Joshua. David. Yeah. Jeremiah, Isaiah, he zekiel. Daniel, Micah, Hosea Jamuna, it's okay for God to choose them. Yeah, that's all right. All right. But then it's okay for him to choose men, right the way up to John the Baptist. Yeah. And it's okay. For God to choose. Or for Jesus to choose his own disciples. Yeah. But it's not bright that he should be able to choose me. I need to come to Him. free will.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:33

So right back in the old, there's a choosing choosing 1234 We see it very clear doesn't don't wait. And then Jesus, as you said, has actually given us that text, you did not choose me, I chose Yes. So is emphasizing that you as a human being are not capable. So why would he stop? Why would it stopped? Why would that stop the call in the process? It can't, can it?

Steve: 18:58

No, there is the strange aspect of we are called to believe. Now why do I believe in my dad didn't? Well, that's a question for the HSS. I don't know, I don't know.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:12

And that's a good way to be, I actually do not know that. And if God permits it, he will. Or whatever way we will find out at the end, they will find find when we're at home. So if

Steve: 19:25

we start with the premise that God is the one who has started the whole thing that Rowling and he says that before the foundation of the world, yeah, your names are written in the Lamb's book of life. So and that's what this is another hobby. Hawks are mine the number of times I've heard preachers say, come forward and give your life to Jesus and and make sure that your name is not so you can write your name in the Lamb's book of life whenever you can. It's either written in now or it's not. What you have to do is to discover whether it's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:56

there or not there. That's what the buddy does. Yes,

Steve: 19:59

and So this idea of God choosing and out working and getting deep within us. So only to say you're not good enough yet. I, I've plot with you for all these years, through all your sins, through all your lies through everything and all the work that I've done in you. I'm going to get a no,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:26

that's it, I'm done, wash my hands of you know,

Steve: 20:29

or as he says, I will never leave you nor forsake you.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:33

So when we look at that scripture, and we've mentioned lots of times, God says that I chose you. It's done, it is done done. Deal is the rent is is completed there. There is no choice for us. Well, when you look at the pricing, that's a strange thing. RC sprawl

Steve: 20:55

wrote a book called willing to believe. And he tried to address this whole area of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in responding to the Gospel. And whether we like it or not, there is a tension within the gospel that God chooses. But man has a responsibility to respond. But he can't respond because he is not seeking after God. So God seeks after man, and draws him because it says in the word young comes to me other than the father drawing him. But still, there's that demand that you all to believe. How do How can we reconcile this? As I say, you can't reconcile? You can't

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:38

reconcile. You can't pick it up. No, this is a mystery. We didn't listen. And this is the mystery. Yes. And it just needs to be left there, doesn't it? I mean,

Steve: 21:46

because if we go the other way, what we have is, okay, I, I, it's me. Okay. I've chosen god. Yeah. All right. So now Now, now, we really do start running against the whole area of Scripture. Some say that, like, wisely. He, he, he pursued God, for many years, was getting nowhere. I understand that. He was pursuing God. And all he was was living a religious life. Yeah, yeah. And, but one day, he was in it in a service. And he said, I felt found my heart being strangely warmed, or what a lie he came to. His conclusion was that God broke into his life, and then gave him the ability to choose God, right? Or otherwise engage in the ability to choose him or not choosing. Now, because people don't like this idea of it, it's God doing the choosing the problem that you have with Wesley, God's still at the break into giving you the ability to choose.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:00

So cut it always says the God is always

Steve: 23:05

not so. So whether you follow the line, yeah, God interposes in our whole life, yes. And yeah, in His mercy, our works it Yeah. And we, by the grace of God are able to respond. Whether or not that's my conscious response or not, whichever way we look at it, God has to do the breaking in.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:29

So wherever, whatever angle, whatever way we look at this, we cannot take away from this subject that God starts that process.

Steve: 23:39

Yes. And we also have to understand the three elements of salvation is first salvation, of recognizing Christ and the need for him, turning to God, crying out, Lord saved me. The second is, as he begins to move upon us, and works out His will. He sanctifies us, amen. And then at the end, when we are gathered up into heaven, He glorifies glorifies. Now, what we if we follow this idea that I can lose my salvation? We have a problem because it means that God saves, so God works in salvation. God glorify is and both of those actions do not require anything from men. Nothing, no because a man cannot. Man Man save is saved by grace alone, so faith, okay. glorification is the work that God has done through The work of Christ after we're dead.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 25:03

So in the beginning, and the end is already done, so the bit in between. So we've got

Steve: 25:07

this bit in between. So do we make do we say that sanctification is a work of God and me? Yeah. Or is it just a work of God? Okay, yeah. All right. So that's those are the kind of problems that we've got. And if we return to the text, one of the things that for me, because because so often people just read those four verses, yes. Yeah. That's it, we got a 47. And the story, and I'll come, right. But if we look at what it says in verse seven, it says, For ground net drinks, the rain, which often falls on it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God. But if he yields songs and thistles, it is worthless, and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. Now, as I'm reading this, I'm being reminded of the parable of the seeds. Yeah. That there's the seeds that fell on the wayside. Yeah, it was a path, the feet, the seed that fell on stony ground. And the the seed that fell amongst the songs in the sizzles songs assistant professors was here. And we must always whenever we're reading Scripture, we can't read things in isolation, we have to have some idea of what's happening. And then also, it talks about good ground. Now here, it talks about the good ground first, and then the thought that this was second. But there's an indication certainly for me here, that what we have through Jesus is teaching is that if we lay aside the seed that fell by the wayside, which we know the birds of the air, come and snatch away, we are left with two other grounds before we get to the good ground, we find that that which fell among stony soil, it says that they grew up, I grew up with joy, but there was no root within a guy there was no root within them. And so when persecution came, I fell away. Then we have the thorns and thistles and it talks about the cares of the world and the riches of the world, and it grows up and it chokes the word. So we can see that there's an indication when human beings Hear the Word of God, yeah, there are several responses. And we see at the end, there is or there are those who come through to salvation. So what we have to ask ourselves is to use the, to use a phrase that the old men of God used to use, is there such a thing? Or are they such things as face and saving face? Oh, right. Yeah. That what the old man of God used to look at was the, in the light of the parable of the seeds. That you will find it you'll find them today you'll find church men and down the country that profess a belief in Jesus, right? Okay. And they will argue about whether or not they will say, Well, I can't accept the creation, the creation was a myth. We have to work out through the Darwinian theory or evolution, or whoever is in theory of evolution. And so they take hold of a great suite of scriptures that runs throughout the whole scripture, drag it out, throw it away. Yeah. Then we have the others who would say, Well, Jesus, Jesus is is this is God but but we can worship God through otherwise we come into the Ecumenical Movement or so all these people are expressing some sort of faith. They are an expression of advice. But they're not expressing a faith that brings them through to salvation.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:25

That is key, isn't it? Yes, it is. Absolutely. Key salvation is it yes, there is nothing else. No and so you can be you're so you can be saved and absolutely be at your boats in Fife, but you're saved. We can't Yeah, you know, I mean, as it what I mean by when I mean at your boat, you're just like absolutely god I just I'm I've lost it today. I'm weary I'm tired. I'm struggling here today. Lord, help me will you.

Steve: 29:56

Be natural for a Christian isn't your struggle. The key is I am saved with that's the point you have to know you've got to get to that point. So and this is where Peter and Paul so you know, once is make sure it some more sure of your calling and election recording election purposes, test yourself to see the test yourself in the faith. That is a test that we have to employ every day. You know the number of times I will come before the Lord and cry out for his mercy. Now, one could say, Yeah, but you already know you've got God's mercy. Yes, I know. But I need God's mercy. Mercy, assurance JCC relevant of whether I'm coming before God, oh, Lord of center Donati of FDC that that's not even that's not it know, what it is, is the deep underlying knowledge that I can do nothing in and of my own self. And unless God is merciful to me, I cannot progress. Now. What this action is what these prayers are, is expressing to God, that I need his strength. I am incapable in the strength of my arm to carry on.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:26

So do it. Could we put a little bit of a stamp on that to say it's a hunger for more of him as well? It's a hunger for more of him as well. Yes, as I'm hungry, I want to I want to know you more and more of your words. And it's a continuum of a journey of life of crying out to Him and being hungry for the Scripture, asking for revelation or for revelation through the Scripture, working out your salvation. Just just calling just just this relationship with him of just saying God help me. Yes, I need to be sure that I'm sure. Do you think that's the floor of of a human being that we got to keep going? Am I am I don't

Steve: 32:07

think you have to know because the doctrine of assurance is very clear. What you have to do is that you have to work that out until you come to the place of peace. Okay, in Christ. Now, once you've come to that place of peace, yeah. That, in and of itself does not take away. Or it doesn't make me any stronger within myself. No, it, it gives me an added knowledge and understanding of how much I need him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 32:41

So So actually, what this does, this opens up a massive, wide area of a spiritual need for him. Yeah. Because it's like, it's like opening the envelope. Yes, that's

Steve: 32:55

correct. Yes. The more we go into him, the more holy we see him, the more unholy we see ourselves, we realize, I just don't have it. I just I can't do and I know the demands that that you quite rightly put upon me. Yeah, I can't. Now I stand in the righteousness of Christ before you. But you asked me to live a life where you command me to live a life that is worthy of the calling. Now, Lord, I need strength to be able to live that life. Now, whether that be through internal problems of temptation, whether that be through struggling with persecution, which whatever way, whatever way that howsoever while you do it, whether it's the internal life, or whether it's the external life, all I know, is that I need him.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:47

Yeah. And by wanting him and needing him and pressing into him, and working out your salvation and everything we're talking about, he can almost feel that there's a push back in your life as well that you feel even more unworthy. So it can almost feel that you're going backwards, rather than than going in because you realize our holy years, yes.

Steve: 34:09

We do tend to look at it as being unworthy. But as I say, we have to, we have to handle that aspect of our wordings very carefully. Because in one sense, we're not worthy. We're not we're never trying that worthiness, but because that because we are called to live a life that's worthy. Yeah, we have to live that life. That's worthy. Yeah, that is a very deep and so what we have to do is realize that in and of myself, I can't do that. I don't have the strength. I don't have the fortitude. I don't have the mental capacity, however you want to put it. I can't do that. I need to be changed. Let me share with you. For instance, I've always told you that one of the real problems I've had in my life is lacking love. I've always had this I've wrestled with this for so many years. Yep, you have led Yep. Love there. And it is still still cheering. Yeah, he's still a problem with me. Yeah. And I'm constantly coming before the Lord, please, Lord, forgive me help me I, I see this great lack of love. It just is not there. I see this love that should be there isn't there. And so there's this crying out before God, understanding that for me to have that love found in me, I need for him to do that work in me. So I can see that love there

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:33

as a journey, as a journey. But this is this is real. Yes, it's what Christians This is where Christianity real Christian is about? Yes, open, being robbed before Yes. And just just walk in this journey that is completely different to what we hear so often across the border church are going to be he knows that unreal before he knows that I that I cannot do it he but by His mercy, and by His grace and by sovereignty, and by favor. And by all this packed in this holy scripture. I am worthy.

Steve: 36:12

Worthy by Christ, which is a stand in the righteousness of Christ, righteousness of God in Christ Jesus to live the life of that. I need a change within me.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:24

And that is every second isn't it every moment. Every thought, every heartbeat. Yes, it's a it's a fast moving process. Lord, I've I've thought I've dealt with saying wrong. I've had the wrong attitude today. I've been Harrigan I've been prideful is a continuum isn't it just is. And that can that takes insurance as well, because you will have to endure.

Steve: 36:50

But then we've we've spoken about this, before that God brings us through trials, so that he causes us, it gives us the ability to enjoy. You see the thing is about all of this is that if we when we stand before him at the end of time, yeah. And he says, and what have you got to say, we can say only one thing. I am an unprofitable servant. And I have only done that which I was sent out. So to do. Yeah. If I did anything, you gave me the strength. Yeah. I mean, he says in Ephesians that he gives us works to walk in. It's not what we work those. Let's

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:28

Yeah, it's just an interesting energy, you're going to there. And that's why we get so much in the church about burnout and coming off the twig of the Scripture. It's because he calls he puts in, he leads us into that ministry as a yes, that works about this fall

Steve: 37:46

by pick up verse out of chapter two, four by grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared her prepared beforehand, so that we would walk in them

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:06

says all prepared, it's all done. Yes. The steps of a good person are all ordained by the Lord. Yes. So our pathway is already carved. Yes, to a degree Yes. Then I have

Steve: 38:19

I have a responsibility in that. In that pathway caused me to walk in I have a responsibility towards him. Yeah, in how I live and how I live because it's in the Corinthian ISN'T IT folks it Be careful how you build Yeah, because your work is going to be tested. Yeah, hi, Zeus, the May will be saved the man but at his work will be burned up, it will be saved as by fire

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:43

gone. Alright. So it's not by works. It's not because we cannot build

Steve: 38:48

no milk in it. That aspect of it, in a simplistic way, would be something like this. God gives me something to do. Yeah. Okay. And depending on my attitude of heart whilst I'm doing it, either on Biggie myself up, or I'm giving glory to God. So when I stand before him, and he says, that piece of work that I asked you to do, I'm now going to test it. It all gets burned up. Why? Because I was taking, I

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:17

was like Laurie, and we come back to that same drum. God will not share His glory. No, no way. It's impossible descriptor makes it very clear.

Steve: 39:28

And really, this kind of leads on to what the author actually says here in the Hebrews text. And I've lost it What have I done with it? It was there a minute ago,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:45

somewhere between Genesis and Revelation and it's a fair old cheese to find this farewell but I know it was so we're in

Steve: 39:53

rooms for the ground that drinks the rain, which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those For whose sake it is also tilde receives a blessing from God. But if it yields songs and settles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. But beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation. Amen. Though we are speaking in this way. Now, the author is saying, but as far as you're concerned, we believe you are saved a man. And if you're saved, this doesn't apply to you, all the stuff that went before doesn't apply to you because your beloved were convinced of better things concerning you and things that accompanies it. So he's saying the same What am What are these things that accompany salvation? For God, he's not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward his name in having ministered and instill ministering to the saints. So these Hebrews, okay. Have salvation on what accompanies that is to go work? This is reflective of what James talks about when he says, You tell me you have faith? I'll show you my face by my works. Not that the fight not the work sighs me No, but the proof of the work show. I'm

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:19

saved. So it goes all goes together. Yes. But it's not by works.

Steve: 41:24

No, no, no, that point James is making is that look any in actual fact it where it would talk about in some respects, it reflects back on the area of songs and theatres and stony ground, you know, not like you can tell me you're saved. Okay. You can tell me you've done all these things. You can tell me that you've believed in Jesus that you can tell me you went for an article. You went through this. You did that. But what is your life side?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:52

What Yeah, what is your what is your life? What is your story?

Steve: 41:56

I'm telling you. Yeah, the reason I know I'm saved is because I've seen a change in my life. My life is different to the one that was before. So my works prove the FEIS.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:07

Yeah, the character is different. Yes. To what I started out, is different to what it was.

Steve: 42:12

Yes. And I for my reading, this is what's hearing this Hebrew six. It's reflective of what James has said. It's reflective of the parable of the seeds that we are challenged to know within us. All we

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:32

are we stony ground.

Steve: 42:35

Thorns and thistles. Good ground.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:38

Three areas,

Steve: 42:39

we have to know. We have to prove ourselves. We have to know that we are saved. It is necessary. Critical for political absolutely critical, because otherwise all you're doing the chart what you've got there you you're either not being able to trust God to save to the uttermost. Yep, you are. Forever.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:08

Yeah, second guessing, second guessing.

Steve: 43:09

And the other thing is as well is that when people say oh, yeah, but hang on a minute, it says in the Word. And he spent and it says this in Matthew, and I'm going to pull it up in Matthew 2324. And I've heard this used so many times.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 43:25

This is this is a life span of a believer, isn't it? We're always working out our salvation. Always looking into Yeah.

Steve: 43:34

Yeah. It's in 2014. And Jesus is talking about the size of the end of the age. Okay. And he says, But lawlessness is increased the most people's level of grow cold, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. And I said are right, okay, I've got I've got to endure to the end to be saved. No. If that is there, if that really is that bold, meaning we have a problem. Yes, problem is this. I am not saved by grace, through faith in Christ alone. I am saved by my perseverance,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:15

by my strength, my ability, then then you could look at natural selection, survival of the fittest, that attitude of that the fittest will survive the one which, yeah, that that makes us smile direct, because that is nuts. But that

Steve: 44:32

but that's if you don't show the other aspect of that. If we take it in bold, why? It means that we will never know whether we were saved until we did.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:45

Oh, gosh. Yeah, don't like this one, right.

Steve: 44:49

So to look at this, we have to be very, very careful. I don't really want to get into this now. We haven't really got blood

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:55

flow so much.

Steve: 44:57

But if we just state take that bolt likelier that the Lord has said, we don't wait. And we say, well, okay, I can only be saved if I persevere to the end. Then I'm going to stay before God at the end of time when I've walked through the doors. And I'm going to say, Look, Lord, I made it. I endure to the end. Look what I do what I did, not what I did. I endured Hello as acceleration now, not a sound motion of Jesus purchase, but the one I got thrown Durance

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:27

because I was strong. I was able i Yes,

Steve: 45:31

yeah. And so this is, this is why we have to take the whole council of Scripture. Yeah. Be very careful how we handle these

Reverend Ben Cooper: 45:39

here and bring it all together. Yes. Bring it all together. And it it. It paints a beautiful picture. Yes.

Steve: 45:46

See, the thing is, it all was the same. There's the encouragement and there is the warning. There's the encouragement the Lord, see one of the warnings that's there for the Hebrews. Because they were going through persecution, yeah. There was a temptation to go back to Moses. Yeah. All right. And you can read the first five, six, chapters and so forth. But the whole point of the, the Hebrews letter is to say to those that are struggling, look, keep going, keep going. Okay, keep going. Insurance. Keep going insurance. Okay, so depending on how you view sponsor, you can't respond. Okay, I'm gonna keep going. I want to, or what not give me strength, give me strength that comes out of us this Lord, I can't bear this out. Help me, help me help me. But the temptation was for the Hebrews to go back to Moses. The what he's saying there in many respects, is look, if you go back to a different place of salvation, or you go to a different place to look for salvation, and you abandon this great salvation, because that's part of that's one of the statements as many neighbors if you abandon this great salvation, which you have taken on board, and go back to Moses, you can't come back again. Cool. There's no way back. Because, for starters, the blood and balls of goats don't wash you clean. And hi, I can't tell you for a fact now but yeah, as a prophet. Well, no, now we know. Now, suppose. But now we know that the temple was going to be destroyed while the temple was destroyed. Yeah. And so there's almost an implicit warning without expressing the fact about the destruction of the temple. But look, you have confessed Christ is true. You confess Christ the Savior. Don't go back to what is now worthless. Yeah, it was there for a period of time. But now if you ignore the Messiah,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:03

you that's the That's That's it. That's it full stop.

Steve: 48:07

Right. And so, and this is why I say that when God speaks to us through His Word, He speaks to us through encouragement, but also warning. Don't go there. Don't do to hear. Now, if you are a child of God, you're going to respond to the warning as much as you're going to respond to the

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:25

encourage to the encouragement. So all the way through the Bible, there's warnings and encourage Yes, warnings and encouragement all the way through. We see that a lot with the warnings and they disappear and do what they want to do. So the other

Steve: 48:38

point about warnings as well, of course, is that when God stands before all humanity at the end of time, yeah. And people say, Well, I didn't know nothing about it. He said, Well, strangely enough, I wrote a book it's called the Bible and it's there written yep, I didn't read the Bible a I wrote the book. You didn't read it at your problem, not mine.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 48:56

Yeah.

Steve: 48:57

Yeah. And so it's a he writes these things very clearly glorifies Himself through His Word through his word, because he's actually given plenty of warnings. Plenty of warning 1000s

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:13

of years.

Steve: 49:15

I mean, we're getting around as he says, you know, you've only got a look at your your window and see the sun rising and see the trees and see the grass and see all that know that there is a wondrous creator. Yeah, but what have you done? Oh, well, you've turned to Darwin and his theory sided

Reverend Ben Cooper: 49:32

Yeah, the no pagan thing that beating the drum across the world.

Steve: 49:36

Yeah. So this and one of the reasons I say now that coming towards the end of time, this takes on an even more important aspect is when the new temple is rebuilt that there are many Christians are putting money in to build the new temple. There How many people that are sold out to Judaism? Alright. And the number of Jews that have been saved her life. So what are you doing that for? What? Why? Why are you doing this? I don't understand. You want to be more of Jordan? I am. You call me because you you want to be a Jew if you're born a Jew. Yeah. But the attraction, the attraction domains, there's a Rome is a romance, right? Yeah. And the Romans, if they're not careful, then they'll romance them. So straight in to a temple. Yeah. That's the thing and end up indulging in the sacrifices. Yeah, is a very fine line, isn't it? And this is one of the things that we have to be careful of. Yeah. So when, when that temple was built, and the trumpets are blown, and the Jews are back in the land and all the barley and Christus, Allah Alodia that the Jews are safe. This is great, isn't it? And the temple was built and everything's been restored and it's mousing. And you think Now hang on a minute. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Go to sick. No,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:02

no, no, no, no, there is one

Steve: 51:07

temple now it's the temple of the Holy Spirit, and the bodies of those whom are saved or lost.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:13

Yeah, very clear, isn't it? Yeah.

Steve: 51:15

But the tech, there is,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:17

there is a class animation. I can almost see you can you can see

Steve: 51:21

the template is built. And then I can snap questions flooding toward it, and nothing.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:29

Nothing stillness and quietness. Nothing happens.

Steve: 51:33

And it's it's, I don't see the tragedy,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 51:36

but that is the church today there. Well, you know, certain areas are that it is, it is romancing its way through the Scripture. And it is making its own agenda and it is trying to is so deep this about about the temple it, it wants it bill, it's a lot of ministries going on about it will be built and how it will be built. But it's a romance.

Steve: 52:03

Yeah, I mean, what we're supposed to do is sit and watch it happen, and know that the man of sin is going to stand in it place, declaring the difference is God of all things that are called God,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:14

the man of lawlessness, that man is going to stand in that place.

Steve: 52:19

That's why he wants it built. I mean, he'll want it bill. I mean, because it's for there are some industries that say, you know, that today, if you if you go in there that although like all the artifacts of the temple, the vast majority of Jews really couldn't care less whether it matters or not. Yeah, but at the end of the day, that really isn't the point. The point is that he will want the temple bill, the Antichrist will want that temple bill,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:48

simply because it is written in the word and it will be fulfilled and he wants it. He wants you

Steve: 52:55

guys I want to stand in that place. And I want to show everybody I'm

Reverend Ben Cooper: 52:59

God God, that's the key. I am angry are

Steve: 53:03

not to get involved with where to stand and watch not to

Reverend Ben Cooper: 53:06

fuel it with finances not to come in. Because financial given over is engaging in an area, isn't it? This is very dangerous. This is yeah, what you put your so your money into? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Steve, you know what, that 55 minutes has just flown that you've kept us. You've taken us in great Scripture today. And the title of today's Are you afraid of losing your salvation? It is very clear for the Scripture, you know, beautiful scriptures today, wherever you are. We thank you for joining us on Buzzsprout, Spotify and all the places that you will find these podcasts, please share these out, push them around your social groups. You know, let's have some discussion over this. You know, it's heavy, but it's not heavy. It is refreshing. It is a place of peace when we unpack the word. And when our brother Steve just brings these texts that God has laid on his heart to each and every one of us. It challenges us but that's God's word. Steve, thank you so much. Could

Steve: 54:03

I just say one, so he said this before, but I think it bears repetition. Yeah. These studies are not exhaustive. I am by no means the Oracle of God. And I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling, just the same as everybody,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 54:20

as we all are yet Steve, thank you very much. And may God bless you and strengthen you wherever you are, in the name of Jesus. Amen.

Close: 54:29

Thank you for listening to Elim church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on Buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa Mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube.