Hello and welcome to Elim Church Swanley you're joining myself, Reverend Ben Cooper for today's podcast. Hello and welcome. Thank you for joining us today we are here in our little studio we have Steve with us today we are recording again this week. We really believe God is really driving these, these studies that we're doing and this is the second time you would have heard us this week we've got Steve with us we are here, you will catch us again on Buzzsprout Spotify over the next few days as this goes out. Wherever you are across the world. We thank you so much for the download. And we are just looking straight out of the barrel of truth. And simply today Steve is bringing something that will be very powerful. We believe it's holy ghost fueled, and it is proofs of salvation. Steve. Good morning.
Steve:Good morning. Good morning, everybody.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Good morning, my friend come on. Let's let's get straight in. We love the word we love the word we're striking with the word here you know, in no fluffing around the edge we just straight in this is raw, straight off the bat straight coming out of the Word of God. So wherever you are today, please share all this stuff out. You know, comments, we thank you for the comments that are coming back through. And we really, really are blessed to hear and to see what's coming back. Also, just a quick reminder, you might hear activity in the background. It's not supernatural. It's scaffolders out there. It's bricklayers it's carpenters. We are in an on the edge of major work. So we're just trying to protect the sound as much as we can. So this is live. This is raw. This is not edited in any way. This is straight out of this small studio that we're in this morning. Right Steve? Let go. There's less of me now more.
Steve:So to text that I'm going to read from Yep, first and two Corinthians 13, four and five. And then we're going to to Pizza one five to 11. Right, okay. For indeed he was crucified because of weakness, yet he lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in him yet we will live with him because of the power of God directed toward us. Test yourself to see if you are in the face Examine yourselves, or do you not recognize this about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless indeed you fail the test.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Test yourself
Steve:Now for this very reason. Also applying all diligence in your face, supply moral excellence and in your moral excellence knowledge, and in your knowledge, self control, and in your self control perseverance, and in your perseverance godliness, and in your godliness brotherly kindness and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours, and are increasing, they render United useless, not unfruitful in a true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about his calling and choosing you. As long as you practice these things, you will never stumble for an all this way, the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord Jesus, sorry of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. Now we've spoken only weeks about making sure that you're saved, and it's more than sitting in a church meeting and sticking your hand up in the air and saying, yeah, yes, Pastor, I want to give my life to Jesus. It's, it's far more than that.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Can we firstly say that it's a gift? Is bit salvation is given? So very clear, isn't it? So we cannot work our way into eternity Sout. We can't by our ways, not amount of time, and it's not by works. It's not about how many preaches we do. It's not it's nothing to do with that whatsoever. No, it's
Steve:well do with us.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Today on rings, every state that brings everybody to a level playing field, doesn't it? There is no one that is highly more educated than someone else so that it's not by works. It's not by finances, it's not by your knowledge. It purely comes from God, it is a gift. And God chooses God
Steve:chooses Yes. I was listening to something the other day and the preacher was saying, you know, you had no involvement in your natural birth, and you have no involvement in your spiritual birth. And if you look at John three, where he's talking to nicodemus and he says to nicotine, you know, you must be born again. Nicodemus was picks up this thing and said, and realizes he's talking about real birth he's talking Yeah, well, I can I get back in my mother's womb and be born again. And Jesus, we basically got to be born with the Spirit. And what how's this happening? Though? We do not. Wait. Let's let's quote it rather than me. Stumbling RIP, because this is Jesus his quote is, is very enigmatic notes. What he says is that in verse five, Chapter Three of John truly, truly I say to you, and this one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, that which is born of flesh is flesh. And that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Praise God
Steve:do not about be amazed, that I said to you, you must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from, where he's going. So he's everyone who is born of the Spirit, basically, yeah, only god knows those who's going to be born again, only God knows. To whom salvation, welcome.
Reverend Ben Cooper:This is this this should be refreshing to so many people, because so many good people have got called m&a in religion, where it's, it's almost like a performance, we got to be at church, we got to do this, we got to do that. And the church and religion can quite easily make you feel that, that I've got to work my way through when the Scripture had nothing doesn't depend and doesn't require that whatsoever. That Christ saves us, God saves us. And as you said, we have no control of our natural birth and our spiritual birth, it has been taken out of humanity's hands completely. So this is very refreshing to me, even though that I know, and I know, but you get caught in this skin of church.
Steve:The other thing about this also is if, if you if you consider it something that a lot of people don't like, and they reject it, if you face it, yeah, in all seriousness, and truthfulness, the idea that you have no control over your life, and that it is God who chooses what to do is it makes you tremble inside,
Reverend Ben Cooper:he does,
Steve:because the fact that it's up to God, I think I've spoken about this before about John Newton, when he had this, this picture in his mind his vision, as he was striving with the Lord, over his own salvation, he got the sense of God holding him between his somebodies forefinger, and dangling him over a great chasm. And Newton knew that if God let him go, there was nothing you could do about it. Oh, God, but what God brought him back. If anybody wants to understand something, Newton's experience, if you read a motto, even sing, I can't sing it. I find difficult sing AmaZing Grace. Yeah, that is very much a personal testimony are very, very much so very strong. Because in what he says, Amazing Grace, How Sweet the Sound saved. Richmal like me, once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind or was blind. But now I see. To his grace that took my heart to fear. That grace was God holding him over over the chasm to His grace, my fear relieved because he brought him back, hold me back. Yeah. How precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed he realized that God loved him so much. He wouldn't let him go.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It really any way proved
Steve:to what God proved to Newton in that period of time, that his experience was God's sovereignty and Newton, loved God's sovereignty. He loved the grace of God, he realized the sweetness and the beauty of God and His love towards him. And
Reverend Ben Cooper:they said, This is really touching a cold well, because there comes a point in your life Steve, didn't you, you know that you're safe. But then suddenly, because of lifestyle, because of the way the wall because of work because of family because of church because of everything. You can almost take it for granted thing that but the set that the power of salvation, to know as Steve has just put that way held him over that that chasm, and God is never going to let you go No. And you know, this is this is just, this is so beautiful. There's so many places to be on with this.
Steve:You see today so many people believe that they can choose their salvation, they have this idea that we must come with a Free Will Will. Seriously if you look at the teachings of free will either from Palladius going back to the fourth century, or Arminius, back in the 16th century. And then compare it to what it says in Romans three. No man six god no No Man's.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's Biblical. That's clear. That's fact. That's called that's written. Yes. No man. So here again, so we understand that salvation is a gift. It's God's given Yes, given and even why we're still sending the Scripture tells us very clearly that God demonstrates His own love for us. By saving us, yes, setting us free. So there must be untold amount of people sitting in pews, sitting in churches, questioning things, trying to fit into the puzzle of church feeling very uncomfortable. Because a lot of religion can make you feel unsaved
Steve:Yes, because it's, it's, it ends up people strive in, you know, going to church. Yeah, making sure they go to the Bible study, make sure they go to a prayer meeting, make sure they go to Sunday morning, Sunday evening, make sure they read their Bible, make sure this make sure of that. Well, I know that Peter actually says make sure a certain make sure to say make sure if those things, yes, it's there has to be a change within. And I've got a small list there. It's not exhaustive, and it's not in any form of order. But there are some things that if salvation has really come to you, if you really are saved, these are the things that you should see. And they mirror what Peter says. Peter says it, you know, in a more eloquent way than I say, but it shouldn't mirror it, you should see these things in your life. For instance. When true salvation has come, there has to be a conscious knowledge and need and desire for Jesus Christ. Yeah, that that's it's that has to be constant. And almost Steve,
Reverend Ben Cooper:could I say that? It knows you. Because times he doesn't know, the more the more you want. The more you realize how you I'm not right. Anyway, but it gives you the, it gives you the pieces well,
Steve:if on this, this, this transcends that this need for Christ. Yes, we need him to, to shape to continue that work in us that he has promised to perform. And that is part of it. But do you want to go into your closet and spend time with it? Yeah, yeah. Do you need it? Do you desire on your guns here? Yeah. If if you're offered a choice between something of a worldly thing, and going into your closet to pray with Jesus Christ, and meet with him? Yeah. Depending on how you answer that gives you an idea of
Reverend Ben Cooper:where you sit. Yeah.
Steve:There's been many times we're sitting home, watching some junk on the TV or wherever. Yeah. Or even when I'm watching something that I'm interested in. There's this sense within me, I've got to go and pretty much gone like then, abandon this. I've
Reverend Ben Cooper:got to come. I'm away from this. Yeah, I'm off the screen. And I'm in a prayer. God is calling me
Steve:God. He's calling me and, and that my heart desire rises up and say, yeah, that's, yeah, I want to spend time in the Lord. Yeah. And it's not, and also that spending that time with him is not bringing a prayer list. No. All right, spending that time with him. The development of your relationship with him in that time. As he begins to shine his light within you, he shows you things that He desires to deal with, yes. He will also encourage you in areas of your life, he will, in the reading of your Word, He will speak to you. And what I would say also is in this present age, this idea of hearing God's voice, if you start hearing audible voices, I suggest that you'd be very, very careful what you're listening
Reverend Ben Cooper:to very careful. Very careful, it's not the good one speak, but is not is not at the level that we're hearing time and time and time. And
Steve:even if you go into the prophets, yeah, someone like Isaiah. He was a prophet for 45 years then Isaiah, his book is 66 chapters long. Those 66 chapters are developed over a 45 year period.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when you break that down even more hearing from God is nowhere near as much as what we're hearing today through certain ministries that they are hearing from HIM every second of their heartbeat
Steve:plus the fact that the kind of stuff that can bring out like portray God as, as
Reverend Ben Cooper:all ascetic Yeah, yeah,
Steve:I hate to say that even Most judgments say, but they they, they're the God that they serve. Yeah. Is is a pathetic God because the God that they serve is Satan. The prophecies that come out are trite. Yet. If you look at all the prophets of the Old Testament, they knew it were ever used by God to make people feel better. They were their challenge people to warn people. Yes, they encouraged people to rules, encouragement.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But isn't it interesting, Steve, that in the warning, there is an encouragement? Oh, yes. So it might. So when the Prophet was speaking, it was a clear warning. But the warning brought a warmth and encouragement. I'm getting into God, I'm coming back is a pulling back is a is a correct and as a father would speak
Steve:this, but it's not this nonsense of you know, God's going to supply or your wildest dream. Now we touched on this the other day. We ended up making God no more than a supermarket into home, we pull every now.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And we just yeah. Is our shopping list. Revolt. Thank you very much. No, and
Steve:we are. It's a conditioning that's been in the church for many, many years.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But obviously the timeline of where we sit with with God and the return of Christ, we are expected to see such a rise of false prophets and teachers very much. And that is accelerated in the last three or four years. And it's been, like, really supercharged that they seem to be on every corner. Wherever you look.
Steve:There's a guy in America George Baroni produces this poll. We spoke about this last year about how it was when he's very interesting then figures? Well, yeah, we started looking at those that claimed that they were Christian, of way found that really, truthfully, of all the people that call themselves Christian, there were only really there were only 6% that had a biblical worldview. Well, he liked his poll tends to look as though the numbers are dropping. Really? Yeah. The numbers are dropping. But that
Reverend Ben Cooper:scripture, isn't it. So when when when I know we got Kevin on the calf track, because I'm famous for that. The great falling away, that I understand is, we must be in the army,
Steve:I believe. So I believe we've been in it for a long time. It's it because it's a developmental thing. It doesn't just slip and fall off.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now. It's a gradual process. But then all of a sudden, you got makes you very aware that these denominations are just they're literally dropping by their actions, and especially through the preaching and the teaching of what's coming out. It's like when when you're getting all this prophetic stuff. Where is it coming from?
Steve:Somebody said, yeah, the best thing from Satan at the worst,
Reverend Ben Cooper:is it. Yeah. So we are at a critical point. As a globe, of, I've got to get into the Word, I've got to stay in this word, I've got to be very careful to listen to. I've got to be very sensitive. I've got to pray for wisdom, got open my eyes, open my heart to what I should be listening to and what I shouldn't remove what I shouldn't. Because we've we've we've done a fair bit of legwork on this very beginning of lockdown that the flesh could be drawn, connect to some of that stuff, because it could be encouraging you think, Well, that sounds good. Yeah. And then suddenly, hang on. I told you at that moment didn't fall. Hang on. Whoa, I've been into this. But God, I believe took me into that kept me there, and then suddenly pulled the vowel back.
Steve:Because he took you in there to show you the emptiness of the
Reverend Ben Cooper:emptiness. And even why you're in that. And you think that God is in that you are empty, but you're most kidding yourself that God is in it. Does that make some sense? Yes. And
Steve:the reason that is there, and one of the reasons why we're doing this today, is that there are a lot of Christians out there that feel incredibly inadequate. Yeah, they don't feel that they're saved. They don't feel this. They don't feel that and it's always feeling, feeling feeling. And somebody stands up there and comes out with this, this wonderful testimony. You know, I went to wherever and and I met with God, and all of a sudden Hello. And your inadequacies become greater and greater. And they said, Well, the way to do this is to do that and do that and do that. And as children of God, our desire is for our eyes to be opened. Yeah, yeah. Want to see more. I mean, in my own times of prayer, so often on site and Lord, did I, I'm like that man whom you've healed, and he sees moonlight trees walking. And that's the best. That's a good day. Yes. So this idea of needing to see and wanting to see these people come along and Then i play on the inadequacy the that's unfair, not the inadequacy, but the lack of security. And there are teachers over the years that whilst they haven't signed up to that and would stand away from it completely, yeah, because of the way they have taught. Yes, they've made people feel in
Reverend Ben Cooper:less they have made them feel
Steve:as does you know, I
Reverend Ben Cooper:on my can't reach that bar. Yeah, it's so supernatural. Yeah, I am. I am so inferior. Yes. Yeah. But where's
Steve:the deployment was the wrong version so that when someone comes and tells me that I'm I'm worthy ISIS site, when will I always have been?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now will be until he called me?
Steve:Yeah, hey, you know, I'm not supposed to be worthy. He chooses mean salvation as you said the gift. So just sort of carrying on is one of the other things that begins to develop. And Peter says For if these qualities are yours, and increasing, increase, creasing. So this is something that grows, it's not something that suddenly dumped on you from heaven. And if you haven't got it in your, again, your inadequacy kicks in. It's not a case of that. But you start seeing these things, and you start seeing them develop.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that seemed, that's very competent. That word, isn't it, because it's also a slow burn. Yes, it is a gentle move with Christ with the Holy Spirit. So God is the one that shapes we're on the potter's wheel. He's the one that's dealing but the Holy Spirit reveals areas of my isn't it amazing that he still loves me in my failings?
Steve:Well, again, to quote Spurgeon, you know, I'm glad he chose me before the foundation work, because he certainly wouldn't chose me after.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He's a great man. But this is important stuff that I can't work it I can't buy my way in. I can't get educated in it. It's that it's given. It's like, I'm actually lost for words that this is so powerful, that no human being can buy it, the richest man or woman on the earth, it cannot be bought. It is not given by the religious order you are in salvation, even what fat fathoms may stave is that even when we've said this before, when we're not focusing on God, I'm not even thinking about church. Christ is already been working on us so long, so long. And, and Steve made a really interesting point one day, when we was just chatting, having a cup of coffee, about the altar call situation. That is that comes into question, doesn't it be rubbish, it's your fault, you won't can't find a reference in your Bible.
Steve:I mean, that started with Charles Finney back in the 1840s 50s 60s. Whenever, you know, he was he was called the the, not the keynote, this the wrong word. But the father, the father
Reverend Ben Cooper:of a father, the autocoat, revival, revivalist
Steve:he came up with this idea of the decision seat and going through this and you know, you know, I'm sure we're safe, Anthony, but personally speaking, I, I don't give too much outro. I much liked what he had to say. Yeah. And it's basically you can follow him through Finney moody, Billy Sunday. And going, you'll see that all these these are American and America has had a great influence on the crux of the gospel over the years. But your Sunday, and Billy Graham Lewis Palau, and if you look at it, just about every evangelist goes through this article business. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you know, and I've sat under their ministries, and I've sat there. And I could have jumped up for salvation for five times, because of like the pressure of
Steve:it over the years when I was when the Lord began to draw me. And I had no one to teach me and I was, I was completely green. I hadn't got a clue what was going on. And I saw all these people around me. I went, I went forward dozens of times,
Reverend Ben Cooper:praise God. And what a great learning experience all this has been to us. Because God uses all that to get the truth to us. Because I know you have an eye open there must be 1000s Goodness knows how many people have sat under these ministries, but felt the the flesh go down because I'm going to be the one
Steve:from my own point of view. It wasn't so much the flesh it was this desire for salvation went down again my life
Reverend Ben Cooper:nothing happened I gave him but no, he's already and so I go away on things. What's the what's going on a bit
Steve:of change what's going on this change, especially if niche
Reverend Ben Cooper:but before you got That altar call moment. Got it already
Steve:worked. I was already working before I can afford it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. So these experiences are not for us to worry about because the hair it time and time and time and time again. Oh, I've gone down and decided to let Jesus in well, goodness gracious. If that is the height
Steve:that again, where that comes from is from Revelation or stay at the door knock Yeah, he opens the door. And they use that as an evangelist call. Jesus there. He's talking to Christians. Yeah, he's taught me. I know him. Yeah. And he's asking, he's knocking on their door. I want to come in you say you know me? Well, if you know me open the door, and I'll come in and I'll suck with you. And my father. So it's it's a it's a reprimand to those that say they know him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Yeah. So, so Well, okay. So we were getting, we're getting a handle on this salvation, that it's a gift it's given, were chosen everything. But you've just said something. There's made me think again, again. Let me in. So when we so we are chosen, we are saved? Yes.
Steve:And God draws us remember that if no one comes to me, other than the father, draw him draw me who come to me, I will, in no way turn away. So what there was a I'm over, over again to put in with Spurgeon this morning. But there was one of these times of preaching, I've probably spoken about this before. And at the Metropolitan tabernacle, Danielle Fincastle. And he said, My dear brothers and sisters, you know me, you know, my beliefs. I am a Calvinist, I am an Augustinian. And you know that I believe that it is God cause and God that chooses, and there are many amongst you today, you know that you are chosen, and God has drawn you into His, into his son, and into the life that he gives through the cross. There are many of you sitting here today saying, I don't know that I'm drawn, pastor, but I would really like to come. And he said, you can the door is open. Wow. So what he was saying was, yeah, that's not necessarily a need to know that you're chosen. But if there's a desire in your heart for him, he's drawing you and you can come, and he's not gonna turn you away. You don't have to take all the theological boxes. Yeah, right. So it comes down to there's
Reverend Ben Cooper:an invitation as well. A door is there you can come and turn the handle.
Steve:But what he didn't do, he didn't then go into this, you know, come down in front, no pray for you know, basically what he expected to do was go home
Reverend Ben Cooper:and go home. And it's between you and God. Yes. Do you think that if we look at the auto core business that goes on, that could be a moment when just the body realizes that God is is as chosen me? Or do you think that there is an a reaction to that that Billy Graham moment that if I don't run, I will never be saved? Across the crowd?
Steve:There are many reasons why people go forward. Yeah, I think they go forward because they are deeply desirous of God. I think they go forward. Because as I was not understanding whether I was saved and needing to know, yeah, I think some people go forward because they're caught up in the emotion of the time. People go forward, because my wife's gone for it. My husband's gone forward. I bet go go forward with them. Yep.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So there's 101 ways many memories raised, go through those sorts of things.
Steve:But at the end of the day, there are very little use. I remember reading something that's one minister out in America, a very powerful evangelist in his time. He traveled the globe evangelize. And he said, When I gave the call, sometimes 1000s upon 1000s of people will come forward. But I doubt that many of them went through for salvation. So he went through his whole logical business. Yeah. And all these people came forward for whatever reason. But he doubted true salvation to come to them. So you end up wondering why on earth he bothered Why did it Yeah. So the other thing about it as well is that because of the gross of the lies of the Navy and climate, yes, all right. People all want to be rich. So Jesus, mighty rich all go forward. The other thing also is this. People love their families and There's an old saying, you know, I'll start with the devil, if I can get what a one, wow. And if I've got a son that sick or a doctor that sick or a wife that sick or a husband or so on and so forth, I don't care what happens as long as long as they heal here. And so they end up going forward, they hear that Jesus heals, and they go forward for healing. The real stupidity of it is I always remember a story about Reinhard Bonnke, in Africa one time. And people couldn't get into the arena of the great big football arena. And they were literally bringing dead people and sick people, and laying them on the bonnet of his car. Oh, wow. To see if like the power of God would work through this man of God's position.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Gosh, it becomes you enter into a
Steve:place like that. I mean, this is a nonsense this is
Reverend Ben Cooper:this is yeah, this goes beyond that, doesn't it? This is in the realm of where superstition is superstition. Magic is magic. Magic, witchcraft, nothing to do with
Steve:basically, what it's based upon is that area in expert, Peter walked past the knees show and their shadow healed. And any other time when they sent out prayer cloths, people are wretched. We've got to do this all the time. You know, we send out prayer cloths and all you're doing primer in your heel.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But there wasn't $50 attack.
Steve:But these things were purposely done. Yes. And they were, I would suggest they were seeing your activities of the Holy Spirit of that pilot.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I would agree that was a moment in time that God used. Yes, Dan, for that time for that generation, signs of the apostle, they were signs
Steve:in No, in an earlier day, when Christ was being preached. The power of the Holy Spirit going out in those signs and wonders, was there as they as the Lord. Use the signs and wonders to affirm Christ as gone. Yeah. The signs of wonders. We used to affirm these men were of Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Amen. Yeah, yeah. All right. Now, I
Steve:do not believe that the gifts of God have passed away. Now, but neither do I believe that a man can lay your hands on them. It's either given as it says in the Corinthian letter, or it's not. Yes. Yeah. It's given what's
Reverend Ben Cooper:not definitely, yeah, it's very
Steve:clear. It doesn't stop you from praying for someone to be healed, it doesn't stop. Because that's encouragement. That's, that's faith, that you're gonna lay eyes on someone and say, Be healed in Jesus name, you better know that. That's what God is saying.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that that brings in the same conversation about this prophetic language. When someone says, God has told me this is going to happen to you. And it doesn't. Who is that going to affect? affect everybody? Absolutely. Everything and everyone, because the one that has been given the word to is going, God's told me I'm going to be healed in December. I'm going to be free of this in December.
Steve:Data and everybody is affected by it, and I will run away. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:exactly. And you know, the area of palliative care that are working, yes. The conversations I've had with certain people from certain areas of church and I have to say, that is not going to happen. It's not because you are speaking in a prophetic language that is not of God that that is God is not going to do that on I believe in miracles
Steve:I can call you are a god's beck and call your his servant. He's not yours yet.
Reverend Ben Cooper:I believe it we believe in miracles and you know that you know, that you just know that Yeah. And it becomes this this show. And yeah, so it's a very interesting world where I work there and certain areas and you think but God use God has used that in my life to to reveal everything we're talking about. Is a very it's been a very interesting time. Never seen anyone healed, but I've seen people saved. That is the greatest
Steve:this I mean, in your in the hospitalist standing on the edge of eternity. The suddenly they're safe. They go God heaven. Yeah, they're gone. It's amazing. Anyway, come on. Okay. Another thing that you see developed within you is a hatred of sin. Oh, yeah. Now, that's not just what you do. But it's also when it says in the word, there is no good thing that will listen within this flesh. There are times when I'm praying and God begins to not in a in a crushing way, but he shows that it gives me a kind of look into the corruption of my flesh. The depth of sin of
Reverend Ben Cooper:our depth. Oh,
Steve:all right. And in that, it doesn't force me away. It brings me closer shoots the Lord. Thank You for what You're done. Thank you for what you're doing. And the actual fact roll. Would you show me more? Because I want to deal with this before you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And he does take that away. There is a journey and a process. Oh, yes. That we have to go through. And so interesting. It's not like it clicks, his fingers are not pure. It's going through the valley.
Steve:Yeah. And the idea, I'll tell you the other place where you'll find it as well, this hatred of sin, and it will develop it this doesn't come. He's in, in this technological age, and we will watch films of various kinds. I found over the years, there's an I find it very difficult to sit down and watch most stuff on the television. I can't watch I get that. I can't. And there's stuff that, you know. I just can't watch it. Yeah. So over a period of time, it's portraying sin in different ways. Its glory falling here. And now, and when you see sin on what's going on in the world, you hate what you say.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Even the advertising. Yes, the advertisers is going wow, that is like the adverts on the TV and the billboards, and they on the social way. They advertise the way they push things over you think, Wow, this is in my face. Yeah.
Steve:I mean, judge said he made a he made a covenant with his eyes. He had a sequel to these days with everything that we've got around us. I mean, just it's not so bad on the tube these days. So yeah, changed a lot of things. But some, it's not just the poker tude of the stuff that was put out. But now you're dealing with stuff with this new technology of this. What he could when they get over their eyes and their virtual reality, the virtual reality? Yeah, the first thing that happens with his foot and one of the first things that's happened with this virtual reality Roseberry my wife was telling me about it. They're creating robots in Japan for six months. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Always. Always the first thing. It's
Reverend Ben Cooper:always the first thing. Yeah. Always is corruption. Yeah, it is corruption at a evil eye level. Yes. That we could the things that go on. It's just it's very,
Steve:very pervasive. Yeah. And you have to be, you know, sometimes. I mean, no talking about the other day about the amount of reading rather about the pervasiveness of pornography in the church, and how the number of ministers are caught up in it. Yeah. And how there was a helpline and the number of people that are phoning up crying out for help. They want to be free of this. Yeah. And he's got a hold of them. It got older, and it's destructive. Yes, it's provided it's one of the most deadliest addictions going,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it is so strong and so powerful. Oh, talk about, you
Steve:know, it's very any addict that might be listening to this, an ex drug addict or an ex alcoholic, might disagree with me on this, but from what I've seen, what I understand and even my own experiences over the years, pornography is far more deadly, far more pervasive within Yeah. As a person because it goes to so much in the mind it
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah, it goes beyond it,
Steve:you know? Yeah. And it, it destroys so much in the mind. And the other thing about it, of course, is that it it tight so much. Yeah, it's the marriage bed, it taints the everything, that spirit dictates the relationship with God. Yeah. And the encouraging part about it and all encourage anybody that might be caught up in this, that really, if you are saved, God understands where you are, just keep trying out to him, just that that is as a crying out. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:there are a lot of dealings in lockdown on this subject with quite a few ministers that I was like, wow, I understand. But from my background, I understand yes, I've clearly understand them. And so lockdown drove a lot of ministers to drink, get pornography, the isolation, all that sort of stuff. So no one no one can escape it. To that degree, it is it is all around us. It is almost pushed on us from social media, schools, the gender issue, the advertising, the programs, the adverts, and you
Steve:the again the mark of the Christian is the yearning, aching desire to be free of a of it. Keep going Before God that is the break, throw crucify him yet set me free. You stumbled but you come forward. It's, it's, it's not. You stumbled with no, you don't fall headlong. Now you don't. And you just keep seeking you just keep seeking is you've got to have God. Is it Psalm
Reverend Ben Cooper:37? It says I was about. I was about. I was pushed back, and I was about to fall. Yeah. God's called me. Yeah. So God knows. Yes, he does everything about everything. Yes. But when we come or I come to myself, and I go, God, you got to break this. Yes, very much. Because I can't break my
Steve:summer break it. No, you can't. This is the good, that is a great truth. Whatever your problems are, you can't deal with them. Only God can. And one of the reasons he allows them is so that you will seek Him
Reverend Ben Cooper:if it's strange, isn't it that he allows it so that you will so you can see
Steve:him? Because it's not that he colludes with it? It doesn't. He approves it. It's got nothing to do with that. But he allows it so that you will seek Him.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It takes you to a deeper Yeah, walk. Yeah, very interesting. We're talking about salvation, salvation is given. But then suddenly, the Holy Spirit alerts us of all this stuff around us. And then we're on a journey of a cleanup to a degree very much a big sweep for the innermost being. And anything
Steve:drug addicts that God has touched. People frames, and oh, my God, oh, now he was a drug addict. And he was in all sorts of stuff, and got touched him and set him free. And he did he was free, wonderfully clean. Yeah. But he doesn't do that with everybody. No,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it doesn't do. It's like healing is it someone might get healed straightaway or someone's on a journey of healing. Someone's on a on a journey of addictive things in their lives. And God heals people instantly, or he takes you on a journey to go. But his his journey, which is God and the journey, yeah. So but I cannot break anything. Without him.
Steve:No. And the question is that you have this, what do you want to do with it? Do you want to be set free of it? Or do you want to continue with it? And so that's what I've got got understands? If you're in that position, you're more trial would consider? You need to look at yourself. Hmm, I really do. The other thing that happens is that you grow in love for God's word. And the truth of it. Yeah. Right. And you will find also that as you begin to love the truth, you begin to abhor false teaching. Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Because the two work together to work together. So the word frees you and opens your eyes and tear and pause the vowel back and you start to see things in truth. Yes. And then suddenly, you realize, I was caught in that, but now, the word has freed me, as release me. And again, it's again, it's the same thing.
Steve:Something host pride about the other day, reflecting on some prayers that I prayed many, many years ago. And I was saying, Lord, you know, way back then, when somebody was trying to jam the nine and climate down my throat. I Yeah. I said, you know, we've only got one Bible. Yeah. And the scriptures can be twisted. And we have to, do we have a desire for the truth? Are we willing to fight our our flesh? Are we willing to seek the Lord and know the truth? Yeah. Are we willing to do that? And I found over the years that, that truth, and the understanding of that truth grows, and grows and grows, and I am in a place now where I was not in two years ago, yeah, five years ago, or 10 years ago, because it's my understanding, by the grace of God has grown, because I've desired to understand Praise God. And so as I've grown in the knowledge and understanding of the word, I've also grown in my hatred, of false doctrine, and false teaching. And that how hatred comes for many reasons. One is because it is against God's word and it dishonors God. And it's revolting, and it it just it dust just does not honor the Word of God. And it doesn't honor him
Reverend Ben Cooper:at all. No, no way, shape or form.
Steve:And the other thing is, is one of the other reasons I hate it is it it causes people to stumble and fall. Now I do believe in Korean election. I do believe those whom God has called him He will save. I do believe that. But I also know that there's a lot of his children that are struggling because of the false teaching. Yes. Exactly. And I don't want to see them in nightlife. No,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, no, that's That's right. That's right. You talk about the truth. The truth frees you, and who is the truth? I am the Way the Truth and Life. Yeah, it's all Jesus is God. It's this, this deity that we're, it's him.
Steve:The other thing that happens is kind of linked with what we spoke about before but you find a lessening of sin, you find that you don't do those things that you used to, you know,
Reverend Ben Cooper:you can almost go to the door of it, but you don't turn the handle of it. God help
Steve:you stay away from it. You keep away in actual fact, you find that you've died till you die. Yeah, yeah, we come back to this business about the area of addiction whether whatever is for those that that strongly there comes a time. Yeah, when it dies, it's gone. Now the flesh is still there. And there are times when the Paul comes, but you hate it. You don't want it
Reverend Ben Cooper:because the root has gone. Yeah. God has dealt with like the extra room. He has dealt with it. Yeah. And it can only be God.
Steve:I mean, it does take time. There's no two ways about it's a journey. You know, don't whatever you do, don't give up seeking God over don't they don't carry understands and, and you're yearning for him proves you're in any way proves your salvation is a mark of true salvation. I want Christ and I want to be free of this.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So when God said, yeah, so when God says, God displayed, and he showed his great love for us, in the area of calling, most times that you find when you when you're alerted to salvation, obviously we're in, we're in the addiction. So he doesn't wait for us to deal with the addiction. Oh, he deals with us while we're while I was still a sinner.
Steve:He knows you can't deal with the addiction he knows that the addiction can only be dealt with in the cross so he will die yourself you got to die to sell the only way you can donate stuff is find yourself in Christ.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's just it's just so powerful. That while I you him Whoever we was, was right in the addictive way that we was. God was dealing with us in that addiction. He saved us and set us free. Yes. So how many times do we hear you can't take of this you can't do this because you haven't done X? Oh, what you're talking about the communion? Yeah, loads of other things, you know, loads of other things. You know,
Steve:as far as communion is concerned, you have to be at peace with God in your own heart. Whether or not you take it you have to examine yourself number times I sit here Yeah. And the communion starts and I say Lord, I can't take it today. There's something wrong. And I'm I am not going to take it
Reverend Ben Cooper:here because you're you're doing a deep examination of yourself because you
Steve:were something near I'm not sure I can't put whenever I know there's something there and I can't I can't take it so I say no, I'm not going to take it today.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But religion thinks it holds the key to you or me saying you can
Steve:no no no main content you know, that has to be decided between you and
Reverend Ben Cooper:God you and God that's that it's that done. That's what says in Corinthians examine your examine your simple basically
Steve:what we're talking about. Exactly. Okay. The other thing is that we find that our thoughts are turning more towards God, definitely more and more. When we are in that place of salvation. We're in that position of where we begin or God begins that work of transformation by the renewing of the mind. It takes time to for that mind to be renewed. God doesn't just dump it on us all in one go. And so we find out as we go on, our thoughts are turned towards him more and more and more and more
Reverend Ben Cooper:it it just happens it just it just it just happens because he is the one that is making it happen well because
Steve:you're you've died your new create your new creation, sorry, your new creation, a new creature in Christ, and you're learning to live in a new creation. And as God transforms you by that renewing of the mind. So you turn towards him he goes back to that business, about watching things on TV, your mind is such that you just don't want it because your mind is turned towards him to him and so you grow more your your thoughts increase a match water? Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. So powerful stuff.
Steve:You also find a growth in love and faith. I don't mean the kind of face that so you know, go outside and command winds and ways to stop this from trying, really? I really do, but it's faith in Christ in this sense of trust, trust, trust faith, faith is in many sides. Fighting. It's in one sense. What isn't fight? Okay, let's do what isn't faith. There's a lot of teaching around today that basically runs along this line. If I believe something God's gonna do it for me. If I right, yeah. So you end up manipulating God through what your what you believe what you believe, right? Yeah, I am going to believe for a new job, and I'm trusting you to give it to me. Really? So did God say to you, he was gonna give you a job because faith is responding to what he says? Yeah. It's not him responding to what you say. It's what he says is what he says, yeah. So if you come before the Lord, and he says, And he impresses upon you, yes, I'm going to provide a new job for you. Then that's when your face rises up and says, Okay, I believe in that, then you might struggle with it. And you might have to keep coming back and saying, Oh, forgive me, but I'm doubting you. Or do ask for your forgiveness. Oh, yeah. This this strange paradox of Christianity. Dear Lord, I love you. But I'm doubting you. So faith is a response to God. It is not God responding to what we want. That that's the first and foremost thing.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that's where we see the false. Most of the churches, the false prophets. That's where most of the churches God's responding to me. Yes, God will give them I've got a shopping list. Yes. Now, if you
Steve:don't believe God's not gonna do it. All right. Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask a question. How much did Lazarus believe before Jesus raised him up? Wow. I think so, yeah, the point is, with all of this, he's our face, and our trust, and our love, grow, taught him more and more as we go, as we as we,
Reverend Ben Cooper:over the hours, the wings, the moments, the journey, the journey of our walk, yes. With crisis,
Steve:it doesn't you know, you're sometimes people I've done it myself. When I was a young Christian, you see people dancing about and singing and praising God. Oh, Lord, I love you. Aren't you? Marvelous? And aren't you wonderful? And you're sitting there while you're in your answering, so are miles away from me. So I just, I just can't. My understanding now is that that was good. Dealing with something. Yeah. And as I've reflected on some of those people over the years, I have come to the understanding that they didn't necessarily love God in the great way that they were saying, yeah, it was no more than a new Mo. I don't say I didn't want done but emotional reaction comes in emotional reaction. Yeah. Especially to music music is such a dangerous very dangerous,
Reverend Ben Cooper:so much pagan. Worship is dangerous, isn't it? Yeah. It's very dangerous. And it's been
Steve:open. From the point of view. Yeah. It's safer to listen to each sharing and lead listening to some Christian music. Yeah. Yeah, you know what
Reverend Ben Cooper:you're gonna get? You're not gonna get Yeah, you know, you're gonna get
Steve:okay. We're calling about fighting. Cook, we come on. We gotta fight is not about feelings. No. All right. It's based on the knowledge and the understanding of Scripture. Fight is not blind. It's based on the trust in a man on what that man did on the cross. And that man is true man and true God,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and that's such a safeguard. That's,
Steve:that's where faith is. Yes. And even if I feel that I'm miles away, when I look at that word, and I say, Do I believe that? Then I have faith? I mean, if I have faith in that sense, then I am saved. Because I'm looking to Christ. I'm not trusting in oilfield.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, yeah, it's It's simple. It's really simple, isn't it? I trust him, I trust him. And as I trust him, my faith grows. It just, it's the starting point. And I believe, yes, I can't earn it. I can't work it. I can't get it through knowledge. It is revealed is it. God exposes it, he pushes it, he drives it. He brings it
Steve:if all these marks and what Peter speaks about, if there's there if they're within you, then you are proving your calling, and election, you're proving Yeah, that you do belong, that that Christ is in you, perhaps God because if these things if he wasn't in you, these things wouldn't be saying.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yep, that's right. It's that simple. Yes. It's come on this. This is this is simple, isn't it? It is very simple. If he's
Steve:not a new, these things won't be seen. If he's he knew these things won't be saying.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's it. That's it.
Steve:They the times I think I've touched on this, that there are people that feel that they are not so saved, and they are wrestling with this whole area of salvation, and we saved them we're not saved. And the mark of a mark of salvation is this constant yearning for salvation, that I need you, I want you. Now whether this is in the early days of Christian, or whether it is as a Christian grows, I need Christ. Yeah, I want him in all of my life, I need him. I desire Him to be Lord and God and Savior in everything. I don't want any part of my life, outside of his kingdom, everything in everything in it, everything that means in this if, if we really come to the nub of it, we have to understand that we are slaves of righteousness, and that He is king. We don't we don't understand what kings like or what real kings real kings. I'll just use a for instance, yet. There was a famous Zulu chief called Shaka. Yeah. And he started or Chateau if you want to pronounce it, and he was the great king of Zulus. And he would train his warriors to go and fight. And sometimes he would sacrifice their lives for a purpose within the greater battle. And he, what he did at times mirrored what the Roman Romans used to do. That if they ran away from a fight, he would line them up. And he would kill every tense man. And they would have to stand here and be killed. And he would do it and no one could question him. No one could say you can't do that. He was king what he said when the night he would kill that and the story, like we did this week, it would have decimation the Romans used to do to to some of their soldiers, if if they ran away, they would decimate them, they will take out every chance, man. What we think today is a king is zero. Qe two up in Buckingham Palace. Yeah. Lovely Lady, but she's not cheap. She does. She hasn't got any power,
Reverend Ben Cooper:no power to power at all. And no. And so when we
Steve:look at what is a king, I mean, one of the one of the terms from for God in the Greek is despotic, which is a desktop. Right? That's, that's come to me something very, very wrong in present day. But what it means in truth is that he is God and King. And what he says goes, you can't argue with it. You can't Yeah, because the thing is, at the end of the day, if you resist these will at some point, you're going to pay for it. Yeah. Yeah, he's gracious. And he's loving. And he's long suffering. And but one day
Reverend Ben Cooper:one and one day, and one day, he will, we cannot escape it. This has been really powerful. We've really traveled some distance. Just I just so good. Just to set just to chat, just to Can I just touch on Yeah. Now you also that you've you've wrapped this up. So
Steve:there is a need for assurance of salvation, most definitely. All right. And people need to press into Christ until they have that assurance. Yes. Now one of the reasons I need that assurance is there are many reasons but one of the one of the reasons they need to have that is that, without it, we will never have the courage to face certain things in our life that God will reveal to us a grade. Because if we don't have that courage found in Christ, it's his courage, he lives to us. When God reveals it will run away, we run away. Whereas if he reveals it and we fall on our knees, we is given us the courage to face this courage and love and know conduct condemnation.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's, that's lovely that there is now no condemnation for those
Steve:who are in Christ Jesus, but if you're forever, I mean, some of the teaching these days. It's been around for a long, long time. You know, if you don't do this, this will happen. If you don't do that, that will happen if you don't,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's actually draining isn't it? It's absolutely draining. It's mentally draining,
Steve:you end up doing everything in your own strength. You get nowhere, nothing's dealt with.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And it becomes a ritual and your focus and your focus on it. If and that's the opposite to what Christ is come to me, all of you that are weary, heavy later, I'll give you rest. Such as such an important teaching what you brought to us today, Steve, really, really, really fantastic. Fantastic. So you can catch Dave here at 8am. And any any questions anything you need to know he will answer that but we've just got he's taking us. God is taking us deeper into this word and it's and where we're moving at a nice steady pace and God is dropping the seed in Steve's heart. We're bringing it we're talking it. As we said, this is live this is raw. This is not edited as we speak. This is being transformed straight into that podcast that you get so you can hear the bells you can hear the whistles of the, of the of the people on the scaffold. So we thank you so much for joining us, wherever you are across the world. Just just share this stuff out that Steve is bringing to the table. Have a great rest of the day, wherever you are. Remember that your salvation is a gift.
Close:Thank you for listening to Elim Church swanleys latest podcast. You can find us on Buzzsprout Spotify, Apple Music iHeartRadio Google Play Alexa Mixcloud, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube