God bless. God bless you, wherever you are today. We got Steve in the house, we're recording this podcast, we are the first Thursday in the new year, wherever you may be, may God be guiding you in your life. And we got a lovely friend and my good friend St. Vallarta across the other side of the pond a table today and we are going to be looking at a subject. That seems to be a very simple title to me. And it's be a follower of Jesus, not of man, Steve. Good afternoon. Good
Steve:afternoon. Good afternoon, everyone.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Good to have you with us, my friend. And you're going to open up the Word of God and God is going to speak through him. And wherever you are across the world, please share all these podcasts out. We just want to say thank you so much for the download the amount of people that are downloading these podcasts, this is great to know. And wherever you are across the globe. Yeah, just keeping the Word of God and just just keeping the word keep it simple. And be a follower of Jesus, Steve, less, less have what you've got what God is speaking to you.
Steve:Read a bit from Jeremiah, Tina, it's just a couple of verses, just as kind of guiding as a guiding light as it were really 2324 from 10 Why no Lord, a man's ways not in himself. Nor is it in a man who walks to directly sticks. Correct me Oh, Lord, but we justice not with an anger. This they'll bring me to nothing. The the titles or follow Jesus or not man is a simple statement. But it isn't necessarily as simple as that. And we have to learn how to follow Him through His Word. Ben and I were talking just before we started, and what brought this idea this this talk to my attention was I've been reading something by Charles Spurgeon. And Spurgeon was looking at the second coming of Christ. And he's his millennial right. Now, Spurgeon was an unapologetic Calvinist, and Augustinian and said it several times, you know, the Gospel. The Gospel is as accounting declared it to be. He got up lots of people's noses and still managed to do even though he's got to be with the Lord. And whilst it was true that he held very firmly to a lot of what Calvin taught, especially in the area of selection, when it came down to this area of pre millennial, Ryan and some social, or the return of Christ before his millennial, right, he completely disagreed with Calvin. Calvin didn't accept it at all. Calvin, in actual fact, was extraordinarily rude about people that did believe it. He actually, at one point called them satanic if you believed in. So there was a lot there that Yeah. And so he went completely against it. Now, in saying that, there was a lot of appeal, the Puritans that came after, Calvin also did not accept what they didn't have to accept the replacement theology that came out of the Reformation. They didn't accept the anti semitism of Lucifer instance. Yeah. But that did not, in any way devalue the revelation that God had given Louis. So in the revelations that he gave to Calvin and other reformers, with regards to the area of salvation. Today, people tend to want to reject it for various reasons. But it's there, you know, if you want to argue with it, fine, but you must argue with it with regards to Scripture, and this is what basically wanted to talk about today that you can hold someone in esteem or you can hold someone's teaching in esteem. But you must be ready to reject things that I say, if it goes against scripture, and it really doesn't matter who they are or what they are. Yeah, for instance, RC sprawl who went over be with the Lord few years ago, he was a Baptist and he believed in the baptism of children. One of his powers John MacArthur, doesn't mean they would often just over this particular subject. McCarthy used to say, you know, where is it and sprawl used to point to Peter where it says baptism I can't remember exactly now. I think it's in the second repeater. It talks about baptism brings life so, but it's the only way and only places with reference alludes to baptism as a way of salvation. Also, the other thing is that, coming back to their old Calvin again, Calvin believed that every child was born corrupt and going to hell, unless they were saved. And the only way you could save a child was baptized a child. Wow. And he used to argue with people that wouldn't baptize children. That's why there was this big hoo ha with Deanna Baptist slight wrong. That said, you know, you should have believers baptism and not child baptism, because they held to how can we save children? Because we believe all children are gonna go to hell? This sounds like a minefield on its own. Well, yeah, so the only way we can save them is if we baptize them and hallelujah, they're saved. And so this is yes, is why baptism of children came about how much of our water why? Because one of the I think one of the reasons why they ended up in that is because they rejected so much from the Jews and from Riot from, what their understanding is, you know, we've talked about Christ vomits for the other week, that the, it's between the ages of 12 and 13, they come to a place of responsibility. I don't up until that point. It's not that they're necessarily irresponsible, but, or a care that there's a sense of non accountability for one word, it's very difficult. If you can't get into it, I personally tend to go along the lines of until such time as a child is able to Yes, Mike. Certain intellectual choices. Yeah. For me, they are under the grace of God. That's, that's a lovely way to put that that's me. But that and I might be wrong.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But when you when you think about that, there, there is a point when a child just don't doesn't know what choices to make for right or wrong, though. And that, that lines up with scripture that, you know, children are of God. And, but then, oh, gosh, we've spent so many hours they've talked about salvation. What coming back to what he was talking about, is if he uses if sprawl goes down that road of you can only be if I've got this, right, you can only be saved by
Steve:being baptized. You can only be saved by being baptized. But baptism is for children was the way to bring them to a place of salvation. And the the importance of baptism is is a necessary aspect of salvation. Yeah. Whereas it isn't. It's an outward show is something occurred on the inside.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Now, I'm glad you said that. Because that because that brings us to that great text that says salvation is a gift. Yeah, so that is given. So baptism becomes an outward.
Steve:Yes, it's the outward that's been buried with Christ, yes. And rising up, as they come up out of the water in resurrection,
Reverend Ben Cooper:because I have heard it and you probably have heard that people say, Well, unless you're baptized, you're not even saved. Yes, that then that brings that back to me again, that I've got to be baptized when actually salvation is given. So I am already saved before I even decide to do what I'm going to do in this massive subject to salvation. So baptism is following scripture, but is an outward expression of showing the world. I've died to self. And now I belong to Jesus.
Steve:I, I would say, without touching on here of the aspects of salvation, I would say it's a necessary thing for Christians, if they can, if they can, they can do it. I remember a story. During the time of the time of the Iron Curtain, there was a Russian young Russian evangelist, who was imprisoned, and he was eventually eventually got the foul freedom. But he, they really took him to task being a Christian. And he took a few blows and thumps and all sorts of stuff. But still, he would preach the gospel in the prison. And still he went baptized Now did he baptized? He used to have a cup of water? Yeah. Dwight guards worked in the prison at the time. Yeah, they, they would come up and they would open up the viewing. Yes, I closed it walk away. Then like they would come around in the circle. And they caught they will constantly look into this chat and watching
Reverend Ben Cooper:okay, because
Steve:he knows those IDF cameras and I did it on A human way of doing it. Anyway, what this fella used to do. If someone wanted to be baptized, he would have a cup of water. And he resigns in the water like this. And you do this thing go. And I shut down. He's like in alignment, a farmer and he flipped a lamp. He flicks a wall. Okay. You go. And your son. Yeah, and the Holy Spirit. And you are baptized into the desk. And you can't mean to the resurrection of Christ. The way you did it is you flicked Walter on.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Okay. The only way the only way that he could use it
Steve:was the only way the unbelievers could, because I longed for it. They want you to be baptized. Got you. A yearn to be baptized. Yeah. And the only way they could be baptized was for this method. Yeah. And so you know, it just a sprinkling of water? Because that's all he could do.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's all he could do. That's all he could do. Interesting stuff. So God worked through everything, doesn't he? Yes. Because we would automatically think I've got we got to be in the church gotta be in a baptism, or Paul got to have the angels singing around the edge of it. But God uses and worked through. So that is a that was a very important part of them. Their men's life. I've got to be baptized, and just a sprinkling of water is enough for me.
Steve:Yeah. Because if God was meeting their need, you said it God was meeting their need. We're meeting their needs and desire. Yeah. And so this this area of reading scripture, it's, it can be very difficult. I remember saying to you earlier that as a young Christian, I would, would read things in the Word of God. And you would even mean preaching. And I found myself in disagreement with them. But in total confusion, I couldn't understand why they saw this. And I saw it in another way. And I used to think there must be something terribly wrong, what's wrong? Why? Why about it? And I go back and look at and I'm thinking myself, No, you're blind. You just can't say, you know, they must know better than you because God has gone up and you're who are you? Yeah, you're just a snotty little girl. But you know. It, it can take time to get to that place of confidence. It is journeys, and in understanding that God is actually talking to you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:He is actually speaking Yeah, through His word. Yeah. From the beginning.
Steve:Yeah. I mean, some people sort of their full of complicated, well groomed, spoke to me and this that any hour, and so on, and so forth. But I was never like that. It took me a long time. I came in with a lot of baggage in the kingdom anyway. And so it took me a long, long time. I mean, my wife still breaks me now about it. You know? You never believe me when I told you that God spoke to me. Yeah. See, I was right. It was right. I was right. Oh, right. So you don't listen to me today? Right? Yes, was the thing I had to go through. Because you can't do anything in presumption. You've got to know you must understand.
Reverend Ben Cooper:That's interesting. You've been open because you are being open. And you are being honest. And you are saying I don't get this, why? Why them and not me, how can they but I can't and it's confusing me. But that was that's just our journey, isn't it? Yes. It's being honest and being open, and God does reveal and he. And also we can get cold when we're trying so hard, that it becomes an academic exercise called we might be trying to prove something to ourselves. Yes. Rather than God just saying. It's that.
Steve:I mean, in many respects, it drove me to, to study things. That didn't always bring comfort. Yeah, sometimes I ended up reading people that agree with the blog that was preaching out front. And that confused me more than I still could get hold of it. And it took time it took time of prayer and, and seeking God and asking him to help me and give me wisdom. It took
Reverend Ben Cooper:me deep, it took you deep learning took your date. Whereas first you couldn't you couldn't when you look back at that now, you could think call that was really frustrating. But actually, that was a learning journey. And it took you to Jesus, it took you to the word it took you to find out the truth. To me, in all honesty
Steve:was extraordinarily painful times very, very painful time. And there were times because also at the same time was wrestling with whether or not I was saved. Yeah. And so there's all this sort of coming at you, you know, and as a side you get the accused to come and look or do you think you Oh, yeah. And so, but it is necessary for every Christian and especially today, more so than any other time? I think. There are so many false prophets. There are so so many You're right. There's so many so many people out there that set themselves up as teachers, that at the end of the day, they've not got one clue what they're talking about. They really
Reverend Ben Cooper:there's dispute that comes out isn't there. There's just like a total horen have just this church jargon and this language and this, this stuff that comes out and it's like, makes you scratch your head. And
Steve:the problem about it so much is that whilst we, let's try and explain this, we have to come to a place of understanding the word, seeking God, we have to come to a place of learning, confidence in him to believe that he is speaking to us. But at the same time, we have to learn, to stay teachable, teachable, and not inflexible, and not stiffnecked. And this is very difficult for human beings, it's very difficult. Often we find ourselves that we believe something, and we'll kill any anybody that doesn't agree with it. And so, these things, the only way that you can really come to any sort of peace over this is constantly seeking the Holy Spirit to gain wisdom and understanding so that you can come to that place of both being teachable, but also there are certain hills that you must die upon. Right, there are certain things that you believe that you you can't let go. Yes, like there are things. I can't let go of the fact of the sovereignty of God. No, I can't. I can't No one. I, I. It's,
Reverend Ben Cooper:how does that sit with you? Does that sit in your in your innermost being? And it's always I don't even like the word conscious. You're always it's always with you, you know that this sovereignty, this word, that word is very powerful. The word is in you. It's always a point of conversation. How does that sit with you that you can't let this drop in any way? It's difficult to answer, isn't it? In? It's just part of you isn't? Yes, it's there.
Steve:It's there. I don't tend to I'm not an evangelist. I don't pretend to be my wife is able to gossip the gospel with anybody and everybody. I am not I'm not an intrusive man. If someone wants to speak with me, then I'll speak with them. Yeah. But I'm not one for starting Converse or starting a conversation. But if someone wants to speak with me and talk with me about certain things, then what will come out is what I believe. Yeah, most definitely. And it will stay there. It Diane. God has taken me through many trials, and what's the arm? Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come quite safe thus far and graceful. Leave me awkward, Amazing Grace. But he's brought me through a lot of trials to the point whereby I can't accept that God is not sovereign. Yes, it just, it's alien to me to think otherwise. And so for me when I, I am, I am in total peace over the fact that God is in control, no matter what the world is going through, no matter what's happening. Yeah. That doesn't mean to say that when the tires go flat, I'll go home. No, no, no. But even then I have to say no, hang on. doubleback a bit long. You're in control. Whatever happens to me, there's a purpose and a reason. Yeah. And we all have to die to the weakness of flesh. But when it comes down to looking at what we've been going through these past two years, what we will continue to go through until the rise of either the Antichrist or the revelation of Christ himself. The constant in my life is that God is in control.
Reverend Ben Cooper:And that you said something very important that brings peace. Yes, very much. And that is what a lot of us are seeking is peace. But with all the things that are going on, if we was to and i i Stand exactly where you stand, that God is sovereign, he is in complete control. So I actually have peace in what is going on. I'm not worried about what's going on. But what is what it does for me, is it just shows how real God is and how he's word is true to the button.
Steve:And the longer you hold to that, yes, the deeper the deeper it sinks into yourself. Yeah. The greater the peace. Yeah. It's, it comes down to this peace that passes all understanding. Why is it that we know that there's every likelihood that there's going to be a great war kick off between China and somebody else? And we know that the Ezekiel was going to be there. We know that there are things going to happen in Israel. There's every likelihood, suddenly we're going to have to plug pulled on us and we're not. We're going to be freezing next winter. Yeah. I'm not going to be able to drive my car because of the fuel loony greens and all the rest of it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:But there's peace in that.
Steve:As far as I'm concerned, I sit down I would love what you're in control of my life. So you know what's going on?
Reverend Ben Cooper:And can I be forward enough to say almost makes your heart smile because we know what's coming. So it's not taken us by surprise. It's like, it's a peaceful place. Yeah, but even though there's carnage, there's peace. Yeah,
Steve:I think the other thing about it that you have to understand as well that, that God is taking us through these things and, and deepening the peace and deepening the trust in Him. Also, because of the trials that will come, yeah, God is very gracious. He doesn't. He doesn't always there's a sign it isn't biblical. But it says God will not test you beyond your means endures actually. God actually tests us beyond our ability to primarily because it's supposed we're supposed to cast our cares upon Him. Paul says as much in his second letter to the Corinthians we despaired of life, its wealth
Reverend Ben Cooper:as a great way they've put that with despaired of life itself,
Steve:so that we might trust all the more in him who gives life and,
Reverend Ben Cooper:and how, so and how many was it 2000 years ago that was written roughly. So what was it like for them? What is it like for us now? So they were saying that then yes. And we're in a greater place as in the coming of Christ, we're so far up the track of that and everything is breaking out. So if he's saying that back then we despise the of life itself. We wonder why we feel the way we feel sometimes.
Steve:I mean, you got to remember to Paul did the things that Paul went through. Constantly went through cuz he was beaten he was cast out. I mean, he's an assist. Yeah, I think he's at the point whipped. It was a Darby where they stoned him and picking it. People think that it was at that time it possibly went to heaven. And the Lord brought you back to life at that particular point. You know, he went when when Jesus said, This man's got to learn to know what he's to suffer for my word. He found out and this is one of the things that I find so miserable about so many so called prophets of today is if you look at the prophets of old Yeah, I went through these people today are a junk
Reverend Ben Cooper:now they're flying first. There, they've got all but anyway, go
Steve:on, but that's it. You see, we're talking about how it is that you can disagree with these people. Let's let's look at people like Bill Johnson and Chris vallas on out and Beto and really, they've got 1000s of people that listen to him. They got 1000s of people on Go Home Church, Dave, like buy their books, like by reading the best music. And for the majority of it, it's it's only good for sitting on the fire and keeping you warm.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah, rubbish. Yeah.
Steve:Why do I say that? Well, because of the way I read my word. They are lawyers. And the word isn't? Yeah. A man who preaches the word and says he can only get 60% right on a prophecy. The man is a liar. If you prophesy from God, it's 100 100%.
Reverend Ben Cooper:pure, clear voice.
Steve:You go back to the time of Jeremiah, so I'm only going to get your
Reverend Ben Cooper:60% or 60%. Right guys got stylish boys
Steve:work start with him. Yeah, these people are morons. I'm sorry. They are. They're absolute morons. And they drag people away with them. Yeah. And anybody that listens to these kinds of people that talk about going up to heaven and having tea with God, and, you know, I rant about less than or dreamed about. God gave me this message. Well, did there's a quote in Scripture yet, when Lazarus was an a rich man. And Lazarus was feasting faith, okay. And the rich man was there. He wasn't he was, he was in a terrible condition. And he said, Would you send Lazarus over and just dip his finger in in the water and touch it onto my tongue? And Abraham said, Well, I'm sorry, sorry, oh, Pell, but that cannot and there's a great chasm between us and how he can't We can't cross The cross to us. And he, the rich man says to Abraham them, would you have got seven? I think seven brothers. Yeah. Would you go back and tell them and Abraham says, Why do you think they're gonna listen to someone who comes back from the dead?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Interesting.
Steve:It's, it's an interesting quote, because we know that Christ comes back from the dead. There's, there's a certain humor in that there is but at the same time, if you apply that today, why should I listen to someone that says he's gone to heaven? Yeah, and He's going through what? Nothing is not suffered the way Paul suffered. Now he's not suffered the waist.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's complete opposite is living like, like a king is living like it's living so, so wrong, isn't it? It's just not in line with when you look at scripture, it's not in line with Scripture and lifestyles. And so the line, this is
Steve:why I say that it's necessary for us to be able to look at the word of God. And if someone says, I've been to Heaven, and he comes back, he is got this message, whatever the message is, I don't tend to listen to him. So I don't know most of the time. But I would ask this question. Is he able to say with Paul, I am unable to tell you what I saw. It was permitted. It was not permitted for me to speak it was stopped. All right. So so what are you going to tell me? Well, I saw this, and I saw that, and I saw this, and I sorta, well, in that case, you, you didn't go there, did you? Because if the Apostle Paul was not allowed to speak of that grow on Earth, you are Yeah, you know, you've got nothing to tell me. Everything I need to know is in the Word of God. So
Reverend Ben Cooper:no, that's it God's spoken. Yeah. Does it line up with God's word? Yes or no? Simple.
Steve:That's it. And you know, you have to as a as a Christian, you have to come to a place of, of understanding this, that if everybody else goes in the opposite direction to you, yeah. You are at peace in going in the opposite direction to them.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yes. That's right.
Steve:Because we know, we are not alone. We, if we remember, Elijah, Lord, I'm the only one that's kept your word. And go so well, actually, I've reserved 7000 You don't know about? God, he's in control. He's always got a remnant. Yeah. So even when we feel we're alone, notice this. God's always got remnant. That's,
Reverend Ben Cooper:that's quite a great text. Actually, when he said, I'm alone. Well, well, actually, you don't know my plans. Because I've got stuff going on that you wouldn't even know about.
Steve:Ashley. And Elijah was a great prophet. He was a fan. Yeah. And God does not reveal everything to anybody. No matter how great Elijah was. He didn't know.
Reverend Ben Cooper:No. And that's a good place to think because there are so many things going on where these prophets, teachers and whatever labels they got on think that they know everything. And I know sometimes we come back a little chuck or I can't remember who was it Steve doubt American? That got asked for my advice. What was that pre champion fellas on it? Someone? Yeah. Got asked me. What do I think it was? Great. Yeah. What do you think? Oh, good.
Steve:So who has been God's counsel? Oh, wait, wait, you, you.
Reverend Ben Cooper:You're God's spiritual director.
Steve:I mean, these people,
Reverend Ben Cooper:it's just that people get drawn to that. And when they speak as crazy as they do, it almost raises their profile, because that's what and people go look, but
Steve:we're in that time of 18 years, and we're, we're there. People want power. Yes. People want recognition. Fine. Yeah. If I can't be famous in the world, and at least I'll be famous in the church, you know? Yeah. I can't be a Tom Cruise in a world of your Tom Cruise in a church. Yeah. It's all total. Rubbish. You know, you're not certainly not here to serve. Man. You serve God. Yeah, you know, and that service. God sees that service. And doesn't matter if nobody else sees it.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, just I was just gonna say it doesn't. It doesn't matter if humanity doesn't see that service is about being faithful is about being truthful to His Word, walking in His Word, being a being a follower of Jesus and not being a follower of man, you know, I am the Way the Truth and the Life No one comes to the Father except through me. It's through him. It's walking with him. It's learning from him. You know, we've put some walls you know, when I say we that the broad brush, religion and church have put so much trust in in man as in the pulpit. They've got it right. And you've said that at the very beginning, but actually it's Hang on a moment. Thank you for what you're telling me. But I'll say if it aligns with scripture says
Steve:like the Bereans over the most noble of all, because they went away and checked it out. I mean, they said to Paul, thank you, Paul. We've heard we've heard your word. Now. We're gonna go check with Esther. And that's what we should do. We should check it out. It doesn't mean that we get it right every time? Of course not. But we have to. We have to come to a place of peace of knowing what we believe and why we believe it. Yeah. This is very, very important. And there, there are things that I've had my understanding changed over the years. They're not foundational, in as you know, we're talking about the cross and soulful. Yeah. But there have been things that I've had to wrestle with. I've had to wrestle with the whole area of of my own salvation and coming to peace that I am saved. And that is incumbent upon every Christian has some come to a place of peace. Very, very quickly. Some of us don't. Some be yours. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, some can come to a place of peace. They've heard the word. Yeah. It's come and live within them. They have come alive to the understanding of the need of a Savior. And they have yielded to him and something dynamic by experts worked in their life. And suddenly all doubts are gone. Doesn't have a witness. Oh, no, doesn't have
Reverend Ben Cooper:every one of his you're not very different journey. Yes. But it's the same God. So God, but He truly is just, it's just beyond he fashions our cross for us. He does. He does. Yeah.
Steve:And it, it is necessary. It's something I used to teach. Constantly. Know what you believe and know why you believe it? And then if you are persuaded to believe otherwise, check it out in the word make sure, yeah. Because it's, we are dealing with our immortal souls. And we have to know these things when we stand before the Lord at the end of time. And he says, Why did you believe that it's not just pointing to some bloke on on the other side in some way? Because he told me that that just doesn't Where can it? No, it doesn't, you've got to say, Well, Lord, I believed it. Because this is the way our original word this this was my belief or my understanding, and providing that it's based on a sound understanding of the word, and that you're not a baron in the foundational areas of Christianity, say the cross, Christ's death and resurrection, and all that encompasses Him as God, they Lord of all, there are things which they are, they don't figure. With regards to our salvation, for instance, people argue constantly about the timing of the Rapture. Or you argue about it. Fair enough. I've got my own views on it. And I hope I hope the terminal director with an open hand because it's dependent on a dance with descriptives, you can make them fair say anything you're like, really, you know. But, you know, to the director is there Jesus here, one is grinding a wheel once taken, and the other one's left, you know, one's doing this and one's doing that. And he's taken, this one's left. And Paul is very explicit about the Rapture. So we know that it's going to happen, the timing of it. There are people out there arguing even now on the internet, as we speak, as we speak, raging at one another, you know, you're blaspheme or you don't understand the timings and souls. Just the nonsense
Reverend Ben Cooper:can get caught up in that for years can't Yeah, and lose track loads absolute track,
Steve:there is a real danger for very, very big danger, you know, we can get stuck in something and it becomes an obsession.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, we get obsessed we get taken over by this is it this is it. This is it. And I've got to I've got to prove it, then I
Steve:believe the while I believe you must believe the wildly I mean, that speaks of a great deal of insecurity to start off with. Yeah. And you're trying to prove something that
Reverend Ben Cooper:it was some of the, the false prophets that are prophesied about Trump business and all that. This is gonna happen, that's gonna you know, and then the clock's ticking. It's gone by and it's,
Steve:you know, it's gonna. He's gonna, he's gonna stand again in 2024. You'll get in if he wins, and obviously
Reverend Ben Cooper:we, you know, it's coming. You know,
Steve:me seriously, at the end of the day. God gives the kingdoms of men. He will give a magic to the least of men. Yeah, he gives it it's what he said the kingdom be closer. Yeah, at least of marrying you. Oh, there you go. Yeah, that's it. Seriously, you know, God rises up and he rises up. Alright, at the moment he he allows us to vote in this country and democracy was I think Churchill citizen. It's the best. It's not all that good, but it's the best we have until something else comes along. Yeah. You know, it's certainly better than sitting under a Hitler or Stalin almost definitely. It's It must seem like that in Australia and New Zealand at the moment. It's under
Reverend Ben Cooper:control. Oh, yeah, it's horrible. It's under control. You just can't. you shaking your head some things that you're saying. But that lines up with a word. It is clearly telling us what to expect. Yes. So, yes, this is gonna happen. This is going to happen. Yes. And it's going to get tighter. Yeah.
Steve:And so this this time of whatever testing, we go through whatever trials we go through there for? It's there for two reasons. One, it's to prove our face. Yeah. Right. That's, you know, it's there to prove our face. It's also there to prove God's faithfulness, faithfulness. Yeah. Mercy, you know, he gives us the strength to continue that he's in full control is in full control,
Reverend Ben Cooper:He will guide us through this. So the text that we've been looking at is all the reference to you know, be a follower of Christ, not of man. He can't get no simpler that can it? Know, that line says it just follow Jesus.
Steve:But you say it's, it's incumbent upon each of us to know what we believe in this following of him, we have to know why we believe what we believe. Yeah. It's, it's insufficient to just say, Well, I'm following Jesus, you have to know why. You have to know through your through the word of God. What is it that you believe? Why do you believe it in a face is not blind faith? No, faith is based upon the revealed word of God. And we place our faith in that in the Word, we place our faith in Christ through His Word. And we learn and understand what he's written. I, you know, I've read loads of books over the years, I've learned from from different people. And some of the stuff that I've learned, I've jettisoned, because I've come to an understanding, well, that was wrong. I don't read as much now as I used to, I don't find the need current
Reverend Ben Cooper:seasons. Yes. That is to say,
Steve:so there are still times when I set off for a couple of books recently. I'd like to know a little bit more on first and second, Peter, they the letters of Peter can be very challenging, extremely challenged very, and some with seek the thing is what we don't have, at the moment in the churches so much, we don't have the ability to sit down and talk with one another. No, right? We don't. So what we end up doing is we buy books to read to find out what that check, thinks to kind of compensate. Yeah, because seriously, and truthfully, it's an absolutely necessary aspects. Or one of the reasons why it says, you know, gathered together who must gather together Yeah, it's not Chris, you know, I want to come to me Jones, and talk about football. I need to gather with brothers and sisters, and I need to talk about the word. Yeah. Because I need to know their understanding of what it's worth. And then we can talk about it and discuss it. Is it in Romans? I think it's the opening chapter of Romans, isn't it where Paul talks about? Let's let's not misquote quote.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's quite like Steve is turning it over. It's quite interesting, this lockdown measure because by luck in your way, you do lose that fellowship, yes, gathering together. So that what that must do that must take us to the Word of God even more. So we find our strength in that. And then when the lockdown measures are released, because there are going to be more we know that there's going to be restrictions. So this is this is a perfect training ground for believers to go right. Okay, I'm locked in. I can't do this. I can't do that. But what I can do I can get in the Word. Season right, pray, pray fast word, seek.
Steve:And I would suggest that prayer. So often prayer is we bring we bring our request before God Of course we do. But we need to learn to pray in such a way that we learn what God's will is. So often, I found myself in a place of prayer since before going to the prayer closet, commit the time to the Lord. Ask Him to guide in prayer. And suddenly I'm praying about things that I never thought about never even thought about. And in that prayer, I've got understanding began to the Romans it says Romans one and 11 for I longed to see you in order that I might may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established that is that I may be encouraged to give With you, while among you, each of us by the others face both yours and mine. So he's bringing himself into this. Oh, yes, yes, very much so. So that's, that's really good to hear that this
Reverend Ben Cooper:great writer is saying that I need it as much as you, you need it as much as I do. We need to talk together,
Steve:we need to talk together, we need to speak with one another, we need to talk about the work we need to grow in understanding. And it is not for the mature to sit at the immature and thumb and point fingers and say no, and you know, and you know, you die and you are now we are there to help and to encourage. And it's absolutely necessary.
Reverend Ben Cooper:It's it's really necessary. It's vital. You can see how almost damaging it is that it has been. What has happened from the first lockdown, and also taking on board where the church hasn't preached as tall as it should have done. So is a very Oh god, we're in a quite a bit of a spiritual crisis. But we're not because he's in control. So narrow, it's down to the individual to say, right God, you got guided me through the word. Yes. I
Steve:mean it seriously if if people I mean, I have been in Bible studies and spoken with preachers and pastors and some of it asking them questions about certain things and certain answers that have come back and I thought, Oh, you ain't got a clue what you're talking about. But you can't say he caught your your your your pastor His Church in front of you in your butt. Now there are there have been times when he screenshotted. The
Reverend Ben Cooper:biblical illiteracy, yes, yeah.
Steve:And it's, you were talking on Sunday about shepherds. It's easy to be a herdsmen. Because you drive people in front of you. Yeah, drive, drive, drive, drive drive. And if I fall off the edge of the cliff, would I say the road like, yeah, whereas to be a shepherd, you've got to go forward. If you've got a knife, follow you. Yeah. So you got to make sure that the pastor, you're going to take him to his proper pasture. And it, it's necessary for us to see the other thing about discussing the word. One of the reasons it's necessary, is that each one of us, no matter who we are, or how long we've been walking with the Lord, each of us are given understanding that is not given to another, but does not give all the truth to one man.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So we're not speaking exactly saying like Word. God reveals it different to you and it different to me, but we come to a reading but we speak the same, but
Steve:also there are times when you know, there are things within the word that you know, are going to have a clue. You don't know. And then somebody pops up says that's our chair. Fang has seen that before. Thank you very much. Yeah, that's it. God brings illumination he does. And that's part and parcel what Paul is talking about here.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah. Because I need the encouragement, you need it. We work together, we speak together. And it's reasoning and talking and bringing it to the pot. Bring it what do you think on this? How do you see this? Because I'm struggling with this. And like, what you talked about salvation, and we talk about just all this big stuff? How do you see it? What do you think about this? What's your, what's your understanding? And when you start talking in an open conversation? It's an interesting our pace comes in?
Steve:Yes. You see the great part about talking and if you can, if you can be amongst people that you can trust that so that you can also then So would you know? I'm just wondering if it might help if I pray to Mary? Yeah. All right. Well, that's somebody leaping down your throat. $1 tree? Yeah. No, no, you have to understand that Mary needed a Savior to Yeah, and she's not the intercessor Christ is the intercessor between man and God. And but there are people that are struggling. Yeah, we are. I remember years and years and years ago, I was going through a very difficult time. And I was really, really struggling. And I remember I remember this soap, do you know at least, you know, if it was a Roman Catholic, at least I don't marry in the site's been able to Yeah, it was a stupid soul which I you know, it was moment. Yeah. A very difficult time. And of course, it was not a place that was not going to go into the Roman Catholic Church. It's these are the sorts of things
Reverend Ben Cooper:is it cuz we're human. Yeah. And we think like that. Yeah. So right for that like
Steve:yeah, I don't want to marry forever. I'm stuck here. Bobby silver Yeah, it's it's
Reverend Ben Cooper:so the mindset, isn't it as a mindset in the thinking, when actually we can't think too hard about can we? We just got to say God, can you help me?
Steve:Yes.
Reverend Ben Cooper:Can you help me being a follower?
Steve:We're not so much came but we'll
Reverend Ben Cooper:we'll Yeah, we'll we'll Yeah cuz yeah.
Steve:We I've said this before I spent nearly 30 years working down at DARPA. Yeah, I can honestly say I hate every minute of it. We've got we've
Reverend Ben Cooper:had lots of Iied.
Steve:But God said, that's where you're gonna stay.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So that was, that was a fiery furnace. That was that was a that's a long time, isn't it? 30 years of life of work of graft hour after hour. The grind? Yeah.
Steve:Finally, I still have people come up to me. So we, you know, you should you should step out in faith. And that's not the way I see face I see faces me. Me responding to God, not God responding to me. Yeah. You know, if he says something's going to happen, then I can believe that and I can do it. Yeah. But am I supposed to be like, because I'm constantly brought back to the sort of when Satan took Jesus to the top and Chuck yourself off? What I'm supposed to test God now. Is that what I'm supposed to do?
Reverend Ben Cooper:Yeah, no, no, you just get on with it. You get on you get on with it. You stay in the valley. You keep walking, you keep pressing, insurance, perseverance, character, athletic press press. Yeah. Unless go unless God makes it so clear. He actually extracts you from that himself.
Steve:But he was wanting to put me there. And so he was one that was gonna have to take me out of it, which he didn't. And that was
Reverend Ben Cooper:the end of it. So he opened the door. And he he put you in that position, let
Steve:me know when he shut the door. And he said, let you out when you say later, or 28 years and a bit. That's
Reverend Ben Cooper:a long stretch.
Steve:And that was it. It was hard, just a very difficult time. But it was beneficial in many respects. Of course. Yeah,
Reverend Ben Cooper:we get that. So let's stay with 50 minutes in again, this just feels like we've just started. So just in the close of this. You mentioned the word sovereignty earlier. We talked about salvation redemption. When was the last time that we heard strong, biblical teachings on salvation justified? We're not hearing it? Oh,
Steve:no, I haven't heard it. I would actual fact. I'll be honest with you. Yeah. I can be certain I've been a Christian for nearly 40 years. Yeah. I don't remember ever being preached. I've heard being averted being preached, come to Jesus. Yeah. Make your decision. Yeah, I've heard all sorts about that. But I have never heard a teaching on the sovereignty of God in salvation. I have never heard a teaching. In extra fact, it was a thing that used to annoy me with a lot of pastors, that they would not teach theology. You have to teach theology, you have to give understanding to your sheep. You have to teach what does justification mean? And when are you justified at what point or what point are you justified? What does salvation mean? What does sanctification mean? What does glorification mean? What what do these terms mean? How do they affect me? How am I supposed to approach it is absolutely necessary. Now often, a preacher can't teach these things because he's got a Sunday morning. And that's it. That's it. Yeah, he's got Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon. That's it. Sometimes drawing great shape to listen to a teaching on a Sunday evening, whenever all wrapped up nice and warm. They don't want to come out. No, you know, in actual fact, whilst it's been a benefit of this lockdown time that we've had this Church Online, to some degree, it's wearing because, for me, this is I think it's losing its it's not it's not it's losing its appeal. It's losing. It's running out of steam for me. Yeah. Yeah. To some degree, it's okay. Because there are people that still can't get churches and so on and so forth. I understand that. But for me, it's, we come back to this business about meeting. Yeah, it's necessary to meet
Reverend Ben Cooper:without any shadow of a doubt
Steve:talk about the Word of God. Because unless we understand these things, evangelism, I mean, what is evangelism, I'll go, I'll go out and I'll walk down a road and I say, Do you know Jason's blog says, No, do you want to know him? No. I mean, seriously? Yeah.
Reverend Ben Cooper:So with the online church is a one way one way traffic. Yes. Unfortunately, what the scripture says is two way and the great writer actually makes it clear. I need it like you need it. Yes. We need to talk together. Yes, very much. So what lockdown has done is isolated believers.
Steve:I believe God has used it. We know that and he's done the right marvelous thing. But there are still I think there are still far too many people that could get off or they're wrong on a Sunday morning to go to check one. They stay indoors, because He's warm, and it's cozy. And I can turn the TV on or the radio on watch it later. And I or I can watch it later. I mean, all right. We've all got reasons why we can't go we might be on might be at work might do this might be fair enough. But
Reverend Ben Cooper:if the percentages to get to church, yeah, get off your backside if you can, because that is that is I'm making? I'm going it's an action.
Steve:Yes. Because you're going there, you're going there for for several reasons. One, you're going to glorify God and worship him. Yeah, to your guy near to listen to the Word of God preached. And so you're going there to meet with people, and given the opportunity to discuss the Word of God. Yeah. And that is vital. And it's going to get more vital as
Reverend Ben Cooper:we go on. Yes, without any shadow of a doubt stake.
Steve:If someone can get more vital, it says I told you,
Reverend Ben Cooper:You done fantastic. So there we go. Wherever you are. We thank you so much. We've reached that point, again, 53 minutes, and we're in. So the title of today's message, you can find this and follow us here. It's very simple message today. But it isn't simple. It is simple. But you know what I'm saying? It actually more I think about is really simple. Just follow Jesus. But the title is, be a follower of Jesus, not of May. And may God bless you and strengthen you. We'll see you very very soon as we always say. You can catch Steve here at 11 easy to find him easy to chat with him. He's open to chat and he's already said So God bless you. Thank you Steve. Bye bye