Reverend Ben Cooper: 0:33

Good afternoon, God bless. Thank you for joining us today as we record this podcast, I've got Steve valor on the opposite side of the mic, and we are going to go straight into the Word of God. And we thank God for His life and His teaching and His ministry. And we thank God that he God uses Stephen a very powerful way to bring these glorious texts out. And we are in John 316. Wherever you are today. God is with you. God is with you. And the title Steve has given us is who are the redeemed Steve, good afternoon,

Steve: 1:01

afternoon, everybody,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 1:02

we're in Thank you very much straight in no messing around with Steve, we're straight into the

Steve: 1:07

text, we're going to be looking at some very uncomfortable or scriptures. And this whole area has to be approached with care. And I don't know that will necessarily come to a soft landing when we come out the other side. But I'm going to pick up John 316 21. For this is the way God loved the world, He gave His one and only Son so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in Him is not condemned, the one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. Now this is the basis for judging the light has come into the world. And people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil. For everyone who does evil deeds, hates the light, and does not come to the light. So their deeds will not be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light. So that it might be plainly evident that his deeds have been done in God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 2:18

Wow. Well, very easy, isn't it? Steve? Just a stain John 316. Yeah. And

Steve: 2:27

I think I think I'll finish. Yeah,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 2:29

I think. But so many of us just quote John 316 and do not read from 17 Onward. We hold it because we can throw that John 316 out and believe that is covered everything. No problem. God.

Steve: 2:49

I will say another scripture again, John. Here we go again out of his epistle. Yeah, it's one John true. And in this, he says, I'm writing these things to you so that you might not sin. But if anyone does seem, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. And He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. And not only for ours, but also for the whole world. Wow. The Armenian sorry, the Calvinists like to dance around the term world, they will. They will so it doesn't mean all the world, it just means the part of the world and it sounds like and to a certain degree they have there's a certain truth in their beliefs. The whole aspect of the gospel and preaching the gospel, and we have to be very careful that we understand that salvation comes as a gift. And we believe it's through the face which has been given. Yeah, there's no such thing as universalism. That particular quote, not just us there has often been used in that term all the time, not just for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world. Yeah, it's basically means everybody so well, no, it doesn't. But this area of redemption, which we which is this basically is a carry on from last week. We see that there's a specific redemption, or I to use a good okeanis Turn a particular in particular, but then there's this area of of kind of general redemption we saw we read last week about how is that the creation itself is groaning groaning right. And Christ Himself is to redeem the Create creation. Okay. So again, if we're not careful, we end up going into the area of Everybody saved and everything saved, and so on and so forth. And as much as it would be nice to everybody was saved. I would like to see everybody saved. Yes. Not everybody's gonna be saved. It's very heartbreaking when you know that there are

Reverend Ben Cooper: 5:17

going to be losses. Count, you can't you can't even imagine it Kenya counts. It's quite a, it's quite a difficult subject to approach, isn't it? Why did God choose? Mr. A, but Mr. B, is not. But he created Mr. B, as well as he created mr. is a subject that no one can fathom or understand

Steve: 5:43

it. I mean, why God? Yeah, it's, we have this area, that's very difficult, because so many proofs. So what would Jesus do for the whole world? Well, according to that, quote from John, he was the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the world. It's very polite, it's very plain, very plain sign. But why then is this atonement not applied in the lives of people? Why is it that they don't come through to a place of salvation, and appropriate, this a tongue which has been purchased, it has been done for them on the cross? And it comes down to fight of course, but we know that in Ephesians, by grace, you have been saved through faith and that not of your own? It is a gift of God to survive this salvation is a gift of God. Yeah. It's a gift of God. Yes, well, I get it, why not getting it? Right. So the these are very, very difficult and very hard questions that we must come from. Let me say that the gospel of Christ is not exclusive. It excludes nobody. Doesn't matter how high bone you are or lowball you it doesn't matter what color your sexual, you are not excluded from the Gospel of Christ to

Reverend Ben Cooper: 7:07

everyone that has been birthed into this world is in this conversation.

Steve: 7:14

Yes. If if you hear as we're talking now, if you hear about Jesus Christ dying for the sins of the world, and some conviction comes upon you, then what must I beat? must I do to be saved? believe on him and what he's done for you on the cross? Why does it energize in summary? It doesn't know. And the only way that I could come to it is this understanding of the area of regeneration? Yeah, that a person has to be brought to life has to be born again. Yeah. That fight will come out of that birth. And belief in what Christ has done. There's an awful lot people don't like that they don't believe in that they say that, that faith precedes regeneration. But one of the reasons I have difficulty with that particular thing, and as I say, each can hold their own opinion. But one of the reasons I have difficulty on this is in Romans eight. And it's Romans eight, and verses five to 11. For those who live according to the flesh, have their outlook shaped by the things of the flesh. But those who live according to the Spirit, have their outlook shaped by the things of the Spirit, for the outlook of the flesh is this, but the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace, because the look of the flesh is hostile to God. Now in other ones, it says enmity emnity. And this means hatred, or fake word, flesh height, the flesh of man, he's already life, not, not the stuff that we walk around in, but the life in which we live. How the choices that we make, whether we are whether we steal, kill, murder, whatever we do, even if we're nice chaps and all the rest doesn't make any difference. The nicest people in the world can still hate God. Yes, that's what this is

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:22

about. As a strong word, enmity,

Steve: 9:24

yeah, enmity is enmity to God. For the outlook of the flesh is death. But the outlook of the Spirit is life and peace because the outlook of the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to the law of God, nor is he able to do so.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 9:39

And that talks about forever and ever. Yes. So the human being is lost until the King reveals Himself to us.

Steve: 9:48

Yeah, if I just can can follow on with this a little bit further. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the spirit. If indeed the Spirit of God lives in you, now, if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, this person does not belong to Him. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is your is. But the spirit is your life because of righteousness. Wow. Now, the point on this is that if we consider the mind of man, yeah. Which is where the flesh life basically is, it's where our choices come from. It's thinking motivates us. It's our thinking, yeah. And it's out of this comes out will never fail will comes out of the mind that hates God. How is he that we are supposed to generate faith to believe in Him? This, it doesn't make sense. And that's why I find it very difficult to have the idea that face precedes regeneration of cold cause. The mind of man fallen man hates God has been regenerated. So yeah, and so why would the man who hates something choose it?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 11:07

He can't. How can hate turn to God either goodies. Dave, you've really got me tired. I can hate to the eternal God suddenly turn with the mind of a man to go he have decided to love you.

Steve: 11:25

Yeah, if you can't, no, no, because the thing about man when he looks at God, in His unregenerate state, one of the reasons he hates God is because he thinks God hasn't done enough in the world. He's not, he's not killed all the evil people. That's not my Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't kill me. But you should kill all the other nasty people. Why is there evil in the world? Why didn't he sort out some stuff? And so there are lots of these questions that come out. Some of these questions Christians asked all the time. But this idea that from out of out of a corrupted dead mind, I'm supposed to generate life believing faith

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:02

from no from a hatred point to a five point yeah, that is so far. Yeah. I can't feel I'm getting now I don't get it don't come work.

Steve: 12:11

For me. It's got to be the regeneration precedes? Yes.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 12:18

So when you say regeneration, that's new. Salvation, salvation, the gift comes Yes. And then from the gift, then it's opened up from that onwards.

Steve: 12:30

Now we go back to John. Again, the, the the Gospel of John, and we pick it up again in John three. Just prior to this. Jesus is having a chat with Nicodemus. And Nicolas says, you know, a certain amount of Pharisee named Likud Amos, who was a member of the Jewish ruling council, thank Jesus at night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one could perform the Muric miraculous signs that you do, unless God is willing. Jesus replied, I tell you the solid truth, unless a person is born from above, are born again, or born. born from above and born again is synonymous. He can't see the kingdom of God. And Nicodemus Civil War, how can a man be born when he's old? He cannot enter his mother's womb and be born a second time Kenny. And Jesus answered, I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Now that aspect of water has been debated over the years and I don't really want to go down particular sidetrack. What is bones of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. So if we remember what I was saying earlier on about how it is that the flesh is enmity towards God, yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 13:49

What is born of the flesh is flesh is flesh. Is it? Okay, finished.

Steve: 13:53

What is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I sit you You must all be born from above. The wind blows wherever it will, when you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from, and where it's going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit brilliant. Now basically what Jesus is saying here is that there is no man on this earth that knows whether another man is going to be born again. No one knows no one knows. Only the Spirit of God. Yeah. Okay. And he chooses

Reverend Ben Cooper: 14:30

it scripture He choses uses he changed a

Steve: 14:33

lot people don't like this Oh, you know, you're excluding everybody. Well, actually I'm not. I'm not it's it's very much there within the scriptures. Jesus said, all who come to me all we believe will be saved. There's no exclusion. If you find that you've got faith to believe in Him. All that the scriptures are saying here is give glory to roommates deserve to hear, don't tell us that you're the one that has generated this, you're the one. But rather God has given you the faith to believe or glory goes to him and all glory goes to him. And these are the challenging aspects of these extremely challenging scripture. And we have to as best we can grasp this area now, when it comes down to man's free will and God's choice, we know that God has given us the Free Will we've got a free Well, I've got a free walk, stand up in his chair, walk out the door and do whatever I particularly want to do. But this free will, is only within the scope of the world in which I've been born.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 15:49

Yes, not in salvation.

Steve: 15:52

Not in the kingdom not like you don't have a choice. I don't live in that world. unregenerate man, I don't live there now. And so it's like, it's like, it's like, Alright, I'm gonna choose to die to live in a totally different dimension to the one that I'm living in. Yeah, I can't do that. It's impossible for me. Yeah, nobody can do that. Yes, basic law. This is because if you're looking if you really look at the kingdom of God, kingdom of heaven, yeah, this supernatural kingdom, it's another

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:26

dimension. It is another world. It's another dimension,

Steve: 16:30

another dimension and my whole soul and say, go into malls. Yeah, you go to malls. But this is another dimension. This is something totally different. And to choose to live in that world. I don't understand how it can, can go does something in the first place.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 16:46

Yes. Goodness. So there is no choice in the word that I'm going to be saved. He is going to save you know, but I can cry out, you can cry out.

Steve: 17:00

Yes, there's nothing to stop you from crying out, Lord saved me. There's no one going to put their hand over your mouth. You have the free will right now, to cry out in the world, Lord, save me. Right.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:14

But for you to cry out, Lord saved me. God has already dropped. He has to do but that's something

Steve: 17:21

that you can come to an understanding of, don't have to necessarily understand it. Now, if you're sitting if you're sitting in the middle of dire, you know, a dire condition. When you hear some schmuck like me start talking about what's God's choice. And it's a warm, I'm gonna do as quite such as cry cry out. So it's only after you come through to that salvation. Yeah, that you look around and say, Well, you know, it's good that the day it's gone, that was working. So

Reverend Ben Cooper: 17:47

it's looking back, but not looking back, as it says, Don't look back, you know, it puts a hand to the player, your lead? Oh, no, no, we're not referring. We're not what we're saying is, suddenly I understand this. It's an understanding. Yes. So when someone says, just believe it's the same, isn't it? I just got a belief. And then as I go on a journey, as as I believe, and what actually is belief, you can't box it up faith, what am i Believing in, but the

Steve: 18:16

belief primarily is you see some of Ray Wilson, just believe in Jesus, and I have problems with this. There's not enough visit. We'll see. One of the reasons I have problems with this is which Jesus Do you believe? You said, Do you believe in the Jesus of the one Jesus? Do you believe in the Jesus of show W's? Do you believe in Jesus? So as David, you believe in the Jesus of the Orthodox Church, to believe in Jesus of this church, that church and so on and so forth, so you have to understand, in whom you are trusting, and upon whom you are believing

Reverend Ben Cooper: 18:46

what God what Jesus? Yes, whoa, where are you getting your evidence? Show me your evidence, what Jesus

Steve: 18:53

and you were talking last night on the Bible study about, you know, it's not down to priests and bishops and popes, and so on and so forth. It's down to the Word of God. And the Jesus that you need to believe in is the Jesus of the Word of God.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:06

Yeah. Where was that scripture? It says that the gospel of salvation, yeah. The gospel of Jesus Christ.

Steve: 19:14

And the thing is that this believe on Jesus, it only is only of benefit. If you believe you need salvation. Do you believe that you need to be saved? Do you realize how corrupted you are and that you're going to go to hell, that you're gonna burn for eternity. And the other thing you turn to Christ, you have no hope. And if you do not turn to Him, all your hope is gone is gone. And it doesn't matter how philanthropic you are in this world. It doesn't matter how nice you all have coins. It doesn't matter how he wrote you all those things off of this world,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 19:56

for this for this rekon re walk

Steve: 19:59

you You take a man for instance. And I, I, I do a fair amount study on the American Civil War and also the Second World War, and so on and so forth. And there are Zoda stories are so inspiring about how men have charged machine gun nests. Yeah, I've gotten done it a second and a third time, Danny and Danny, and they all loaded as heroes, and quite rightly so because they've, they've saved their friends. They possibly stop to advance, and they've moved the enemy back. And it's wonderful. And it's marvelous, but it has no eternal values.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:35

Well, that's for this moment. Yes, not for eternity. And this

Steve: 20:41

is what we have to understand as human beings. We live in this world. Yeah. And whatever we do is fashion for this world. Yeah. If we are to live in the kingdom of God, we need something to translate us into it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 20:57

Yeah. Oh, gosh. So we go there, you go into this spirit, the kingdom of God, you go into this, but not in the physical? Because it's impossible. But this

Steve: 21:09

is where we come down to this being born and going born again. I mean, basically, we, when Adam fell, he fell spirit, soul and body. Yes. His body took time to degenerate to the point of death, because of the global conditions that God had allowed at that time. We can say after the flood, how very quickly, the ancients weren't ancient anymore. No. So Abraham was an old man at 90. Yeah. But if you look back to his antecedents, like, how does he was over 600 years when he died? Yeah. So we look at the

Reverend Ben Cooper: 21:44

degeneration, the quickening. Yeah, it's a quickening degenerate. Now what we have now threescore years and 10

Steve: 21:53

Better ages 90. Yeah. But the point being is that if we look at this whole area of life in this world, it's, it doesn't. The only time it has a bearing on life in the next is, do we believe in Christ?

Reverend Ben Cooper: 22:13

I mean, that's it. That's it? Do we believe? Yes, I believe, do I understand? No? Will I ever understand? No, I just believe yes. So whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Yes. So as Steve was saying earlier, wherever you are across the world, sitting working wherever you capture this podcast, just call on Jesus. Yes. Because he's already started. The process is already moving. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Now that doesn't put the the emphasis on the human being to be saved because it is a gift. But you're just God saved me. Help me, God, how many times we are people say, God, if you're there, if you are there when crisis hits, God, if You're real, God, if you are about

Steve: 23:02

God, yeah. I mean, they were different stories, or some have done it and in, turn it back on God walked away. There are some that have done it. And when God has come into their life, they've given thanks, and they've yielded and cried out for salvation.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:18

There's no blueprint, there's no print is there's no as Jesus said,

Steve: 23:21

with regards to those that are born again. Nobody knows it's down to the choice of the Holy Spirit.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:26

And when you when you really understand that no one knows. That's very comforting, isn't it? Because it takes the weight and puts it all on him?

Steve: 23:36

It won't let me put it this way. It doesn't it doesn't.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:38

Yeah,

Steve: 23:39

because the truth of the matter is that when you preach that word, or you should be brought to a crisis of faith,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 23:45

I get that. I understand that. Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying about preaching the word. Yeah, I get that. I understand what you're saying. You have to know why. You feel that

Steve: 23:58

literally, to come to a place of crying out. You have to be painted into a corner.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:05

Your eye? Yeah, I am.

Steve: 24:07

You have to be painted into a corner and I definitely out, save me. Because I cannot say myself. No, yeah, it's insufficient, in some ways to say, believe on Jesus, as I say it. I know that it says preach this all the time, Believe on the Lord. And I know that there's an enormous amount of truth in there. But you have to know what your belief who you're believing in and why you're believing.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 24:31

So that goes along with other scriptures in it. You can't just leave that as just belief. You've got to take the other scriptures and support that scripture to know why you are believing in Who are you believing in

Steve: 24:45

and this is the thing again, I I've told this story before, but they're all new John the lovely man. He wrote, he wrote him glorious things of the spine. In Zion city of our God, and in one of the verse he says, If I am a member of Zion, if I am a member of Zion and Darrell Newton was, it wasn't wrestling with his. He was an extremely humble man who came from not humble. He wasn't. He wasn't humble before he was saying that he became an extremely humble man. And he told the story of how it was that God gave him this understanding that he held John Newton between his finger and his thumb, and he had him held holder held over a precipice. If he decided to let you go, there was nothing he could do absolutely nothing. And Newton began, and through this experience, and this understanding, Newton began to understand that it's all of God, it's the glory of God, this the honor of God, God is the one who is in control.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 25:54

All day, all night, every second, every moment, I think I've seen an image of that, actually.

Steve: 26:00

And as I say that the thing was that that God brought him back from that, and said, I will not drop here. And it would, again, Amazing Grace, for biographical, Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, my once was lost, but now I'm found Was blind. But now I see. It was Grace that taught my heart to fear, towards grace, that theory leaved, our precious did that grace appear, the era first believed, and this was the thing that God came along. And in this crisis, began to show noon, there was nothing he could do to save himself. Nothing, that he was destined for hell, that he was going to burn forever, that there was nothing Newton could do, or say, or think. Myself. But then then the Spirit of God came in and said, but I am bringing you into that place of salvation. And so when he wrote that second verse, to his grace that took my heart to fear. This was the fear that God had brought upon him, the great fear of God, that God was in control, that God Himself did what he wanted to do, no man can dictate no one can can write. But then he says, it was Grace, my fear, relieved what happened, the script came in and said, but I am a God of love. And I'm going to save you how precious the death, Grace appear the error first belief. And this was the thing that this great crisis that Newton came into. Today, it's unfortunately watered down to stick around up in the air go forward for an odor call. And I'm not decrying people that have we're not in debt, because there's that we all cry out in different ways. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:00

So that that running down the front is a cry out. Yes. And it has value it does. But it's not because you decided to run down there that Gods went, okay. That's the day. It already been predestined. What

Steve: 28:13

is God, he's already at work upon you,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:15

right God.

Steve: 28:18

And so this year, again, the thing that people say is that they don't like this idea that God is in control. And it's God's choice. Because it's unfair. It's unfair,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:30

it's unfair. Well, it's great.

Steve: 28:33

It's not that so much. But there's nothing in the Bible that talks about fairness. No, God is a God of justice. So if God was going to be true to himself, in his just Yes, it will condemn every single man, woman and child that you'd ever created. That came out of Adam.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 28:51

Yeah, correct. She's justice. That's justice. Right? His mercy

Steve: 28:56

is, is he goes out and seeks those whom are lost, redemption, redemption, brought back. And no man knows this idea that it's unfair. Look, just cry out. Alright, nobody knows whether they're of the elect until after they're born again, nobody knows if they're chosen until they're born again. Nobody knows whether they're part and parcel of it until they're born again. You can't see that Spurgeon said, he said, until such time as God gives me a roll of the elect. I'll preach to everybody, everyone he saved, come to Christ and be saved. And that's the point.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 29:30

That's the important part. Yes. So when, so we preach the gospel of salvation. So it's really important that we don't we have to keep giving the gospel because it's God's choice, God's call God's process, but we have had for many generations this evangelistic message that it's, it's all the power is within that preacher, when it isn't up to that man. preaching.

Steve: 30:00

Oh, also the other thing it comes down to all the power is in the hands of the sinner. Yeah, I will be saved when I choose to be saved. It can't happen, right? Okay, good lord. Yeah. Okay. Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. I've gotten busy

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:15

on football softer now. So tomorrow, tomorrow, we don't know, choice.

Steve: 30:20

It's It's this idea, again of God work and you're talking about this area of no choice. The strange part about it is that now in in the Fallen conditions we've already seen, there is no choice. Now there isn't a choice.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 30:38

The other week your mom mentioned this the other week in an area that are working. I was calling into a situation. And a lady of 82 years old was cold call for the chaplaincy. So I went in to see her. And she said All my life I've been wrestling wrestling with this gun. But now. So people wrestled in a. And you can't she was weary with the wrestle? Yes. And she got right to the door. Right to the door. God is still so gracious and wonderful. Yeah, it's beyond, you know, 11th hour.

Steve: 31:21

Yeah. See, the thing is also this idea of whether God is fair or not easy. You know, he's wise or not my wise. Yeah, his thoughts are not my thoughts. Yeah. We have this area of this tent, this area of tension with regards to freewill and God's sovereignty. And if I can remember where it is, in Acts, it's I think it's an x to

Reverend Ben Cooper: 31:54

do free will. I have the power? Actually, there it is. That's right. It can't and there

Steve: 32:03

we go. No, this is an x. And it's from verse 22. This is Peter, talking to the Sanhedrin. And people that were gathered around St. Mary's row. Listen to these words, Jesus, the Nazarene, a man clearly attested to you by God with powerful deeds, wonders, and miraculous signs that God performed among you through him. Just as you yourself know, this man who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to across at the hands of the Gentiles. Now, here we have low sovereignty and man's responsibility. God had a predetermined plan. He was going to his son was sent to die. Yeah, these men, they were guilty of crucifying Him. So you've got this. This, God's sovereignty, and man's free will. Boom, there we go. It's right there.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 33:04

So we are choosing to execute this life. But actually, it was predestined. And you had no choice. You was chosen? No, this is the thing that you to crucify. This is the problem you have that they they did have a choice. You see, this disconnect is where the true welcomes,

Steve: 33:23

all right, why? God sent by a predetermined plan his Son to die on the cross, but you executed him, you, you executed it? Okay, you bear the brunt of it. You chose it. You said, Let's have Barabbas you said Let his blood be a fire rate. It goes deep Dyneema will it go? This is the thing you see when we're dealing with these things is very deep. And so this is why I said earlier on God's Wise and my wife God's talks are not my, my souls, as high as the Earth is above. As high as the heavens are above the earth. So he's wise. And he's thoughts. And if we try to determine how God's game this is the this is the problem that I have. Which which led to this infinite this this finite man to choose an infinite God? My my pea brain against it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:12

Yeah, come on, don't compute is beyond me. Yeah.

Steve: 34:15

It makes no sense. I'm sorry. I mean, I know people talk about yes, we've been made in His image, and we've got these songs.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 34:22

But no, but you know, it's not that

Steve: 34:26

there's a tension there, whether we like it or not, there is a tension, and we have to come to this understanding within ourselves. Am I going to give the glory to God by saying this salvation is all of him? Or am I going to say no, I believe I've got to bring a certain amount of faith to this. And in so doing, I work with God, so I might be saved. The problems that we find so often with this is that the person who Is the monologist. And that's what we are we believing this Monroe single, ergo piece of work is a single act of God, that we cannot add anything to it. Right? This is a single act of God, if God has chosen, if God has chosen to do this, then he will keep me safe, because he's chosen to do it. Right. But if you believe in this, what's called synergism, which is mainly all of God, but a little bit of money, nine times out of 10. And people that hold to that will say that, in that case, you can lose your salvation. Well, yeah, you're quite right. You can if you if you believe got your mucky fingers in it, yes, you can. Yeah, no doubt about it.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 35:46

Because your interpretation and your belief, is that yeah, because

Steve: 35:52

now you said you've taken on the responsibility. No matter how small you've taken on responsibility. You've taken on the responsibility of yourself much, you've got the responsibility to make sure it works out.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 36:04

Impossible, right. Okay,

Steve: 36:07

we do we cry out to God, I cannot say, thank you find myself, You who have done a good work in me continue to perform until the day Jesus Christ. Yeah. And so, I mean, there's loads of other questions that are thrown up through Hebrews six, and Hebrews 10, and so on and so forth. We haven't got time to break it all down and look at it. But yes, there seems there are indications within the scriptures that Satan say that you can lose your salvation. There are warnings in the Word of God. But the one thing I've always understood is that if you really are of God, you pay attention to the warnings, right? Strangely enough, I was reading. I was reading on Armenians blog the other day, I can't remember the chaps name. And he said exactly the same as I've just said, Hang on, if you believe if you really are a god, your your your listen to the warnings. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 37:03

Yeah, we, we know, we own

Steve: 37:05

it. Because God, God worked. I don't know if I've told you this story before. X. Ferguson, the major issue not Yes. Coach, manager wherever he was. They asked him, why was he so successful? Why were his teams so successful? He said, well, because I deal with my players on an individual basis. He said back play earlier. He said, If I start screaming and shouting that he won't listen to me, he'll turn his back on me, and he'll walk away. And I won't get the best out of him. He says, so what I have to do is I have to go over there. And I have to cajole him. And I have to talk to him carefully. And I have to look after him. And I have to show him what he's doing is the right thing. And, and he will respond to that. So if I do it to that chap over there, it will take advantage. So I've got a shout, scream to make sure I get it. And so what Ferguson did, he went to some, some heat. He know, some he warned, yes. And some he nurtured. Alright. And so he dealt with these players on an individual basis. And that's why Manchester United was so successful under him, because he didn't deal with him as a blob of eternal Pro. No, he dealt with the individuals within the team.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:13

So he was, he was being a father figure. Looking after nurturing, he knew their individual characters. So it it's, it's such a great story about God isn't enough. It's about relationship, knowing that person. I

Steve: 38:31

mean, if you look at Paul, when he goes to the Galatians, he carries them off a strip, they really die. The answer to the Hebrews, if he says to him, right, if you think dally around with Christ, you got another thing come in. If you think you can back, go back, you're forced to sacrifice is the aim was an income back to No, you can't do that. You can't do that. within that group of people, there would have been people that would listen to that warning,

Reverend Ben Cooper: 38:57

and some others would have walked and others wouldn't.

Steve: 39:00

And this is the point that the Gospel itself doesn't deal with us as a corporate, a corporate group. Now, it's individual, it deals with us as individuals. A matter of fact, he says, I know my sheep, I know them by name.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 39:15

And they are in in we are individually created. The relationship that God has with us it is impossible to understand. He knows all of us. He knows us individually, corporately, inside out everything. But that relationship is very personal. Yes,

Steve: 39:33

very, very personal because he knows what each of us how each of us will respond. Each of us have come into the kingdom of God with a certain baggage. All right, all of us have all of us all of us have got history. And some people come in to the kingdom of God. They're very proud. Yes. They are very proud and laughed to be knocked sideways. Chop Missler for instance, all right. When I would be with the Lord about three years ago, tremendous teacher, yeah, wonderful teacher, but by gunden got after knock some stuff out of a baton ended up losing his three fortunes. Really? Yeah. He was a millionaire three times and God knocked him sideways. And what his wife, his wife used to say you think you think? Oh, Chuck's really great don't? Yeah, but I'll tell you. I'll tell you, sir, I'll tell you about Chuck. I have to look up in the dictionary when he insults me because I don't know what he's talking about.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 40:33

Oh, dear. And just how he was a serious character. He was he had money. He had a character issue.

Steve: 40:41

He was a Christian from from the earliest time in his life, but God out and not seven bills out of your goodness, right? There were other times with other people, it doesn't work doesn't work like that. Right? God nurtures them. Some people come in. They haven't got pride to deal with they got wounds, they've got other issues. And so God will deal with it. And so when we read the Bible, and we read different things, God is talking to us

Reverend Ben Cooper: 41:08

as individuals. Yeah. Praise God, individuals, individuals, that word is precious to us as individual.

Steve: 41:14

This is why I say the Bible is not a blueprint in that sense that, you know, it's like chucking a bucket of water over everybody. No, it's India. We said this the other week, you've got the man on the cross next to Christ. Remember, only when you're calling your kingdom. Yeah, I saw shortly. This day you will be with Me in Paradise. Right? The last knockings right at them in the last breath. And then a few years later, what we got? We got coal or soul at the time looking to murder Christians. Yeah. And Jesus appears out of nowhere and says, why are you persecuting me? And suddenly smiles when, when and scales for free realize, oh, and as you see your preaching this week, Paul wasn't looking for salvation. He wasn't looking to trusting God as far as he was concerned. He was trusting in God. He was looking at this Jesus. As far as he's concerned, he was an aberration. We don't like these Christians. We hate these Christians out there against their against Judaism. Okay, I think they are breathing threats. I'm going to arrest him. I'm gonna kill him. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that. And bang on and walk out of nowhere. Jesus comes That's it. You're my man.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:26

I love the way that he knocked him off his horse, off. Gone. incident.

Steve: 42:32

And it and this is why I say when you when you look at the way God deals with individuals. This is how he deals with individuals. For some it is a gentle

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:44

nudge, gentle voice calm. Sokka is a calm, unlike others.

Steve: 42:50

I got Bo over here. Yeah.

Reverend Ben Cooper: 42:53

Praise God. Steve, we've had a great run for Look at that. Like Steve said that there's not a soft landing with this.

Steve: 43:02

Not a reason because at the end of the day, everybody must come to their own understanding or if if somebody wants to believe that they have to add a fight from their own heart, look, call on Christ, trust in Him, work out problems for yourself. The only reason that we do this primarily is that our desire is that people should understand the scriptures and glorify God. Again, there's a there's a physical Roger Olson and he's written a book called against Calvinism. And he said something along the lines of Armenians should be looking to restore the honor of God. I don't know God lost his honor. The idea that we must restore this idea of free we must restore it Yeah, we must restore free will is only when man is free. Will God is on it. Yeah. Okay, Roger. Okay, carry on my carry on. Now, but again, it's down to the individual. Whilst it's a number of fingers, Cindy, Martyn Lloyd Jones, Spurgeon. Look, you want to be communist. You want to be an Armenian? Does you please be a Christian first

Reverend Ben Cooper: 44:12

to be a Christian first, Steve, we thank you so much. Wherever you are across the world. We thank you for joining us today. As you've listened to what Steve has brought to the table for the power of the Holy Spirit, and we've had the noise of the builders again. Keep right above our head the brick laws are above our head working on the Lord's house. We thank you so much for everyone that listens on Spotify Buzzsprout I Heart Radio and Amazon music. Thank you so much for the downloads and you will catch us this time next week around about that sort of time. God bless. Have a wonderful day in the mighty name of Jesus Christ, amen.