{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":3.681,"endTime":6.351,"body":"The wave of,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":3.681,"endTime":6.351,"body":"hydrogen enthusiasm, has crested"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":6.771,"endTime":9.711,"body":"multiple times, I think in the past"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":6.771,"endTime":9.711,"body":"and then never really come to fruition."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":10.191,"endTime":13.301,"body":"But, this time is different."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":13.494,"endTime":18.254,"body":"The technology has come a long way"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":13.494,"endTime":18.254,"body":"to produce hydrogen and to use it."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":18.814,"endTime":23.509,"body":"There's a lot more investment in it"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":18.814,"endTime":23.509,"body":"from governments around the world."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":23.599,"endTime":27.799,"body":"And, so it's just a really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":23.599,"endTime":27.799,"body":"interesting moment for this solution"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":28.065,"endTime":30.165,"body":"Good morning, good"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":28.065,"endTime":30.165,"body":"afternoon, or good evening,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.165,"endTime":31.695,"body":"wherever you are in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":31.995,"endTime":34.125,"body":"This is the Climate Confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.365,"endTime":37.995,"body":"The number one podcast, showcasing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.365,"endTime":37.995,"body":"best practices in climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":37.995,"endTime":39.675,"body":"emission, reductions and removals."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":40.065,"endTime":41.955,"body":"And I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.164,"endTime":45.944,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.164,"endTime":45.944,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":46.064,"endTime":48.464,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":50.633,"endTime":51.143,"body":"Hi, everyone."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":51.143,"endTime":54.743,"body":"Welcome to episode 110 of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":51.143,"endTime":54.743,"body":"Climate Confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":55.103,"endTime":56.393,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":56.813,"endTime":61.883,"body":"Before we start, I would just like to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":56.813,"endTime":61.883,"body":"welcome a new supporter of this podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":62.123,"endTime":63.223,"body":"Christophe Kottelat."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":63.983,"endTime":65.603,"body":"Christophe I hope I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":63.983,"endTime":65.603,"body":"getting your name right."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":66.293,"endTime":69.623,"body":"Christoph signed up to support this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":66.293,"endTime":69.623,"body":"podcast after last week's show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":69.983,"endTime":71.463,"body":"Thanks so much for that Christophe."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":71.723,"endTime":72.623,"body":"Much appreciated."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":72.923,"endTime":75.593,"body":"I've added Christophe's name to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":72.923,"endTime":75.593,"body":"the list of supporters published"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":75.623,"endTime":77.573,"body":"in the show notes of every episode."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":78.413,"endTime":82.073,"body":"If you're not a supporter, I'd like to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":78.413,"endTime":82.073,"body":"encourage you to consider joining our"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":82.073,"endTime":86.093,"body":"community of like-minded individuals"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":82.073,"endTime":86.093,"body":"who are passionate about climate."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":86.963,"endTime":90.563,"body":"Supporting the podcast is easy and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":86.963,"endTime":90.563,"body":"affordable with options starting"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":90.563,"endTime":91.973,"body":"as low as just three euros."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":92.243,"endTime":94.073,"body":"That's less than the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":92.243,"endTime":94.073,"body":"cost of a cup of coffee."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":94.913,"endTime":97.283,"body":"And your support will make"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":94.913,"endTime":97.283,"body":"a huge difference in keeping"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":97.283,"endTime":98.453,"body":"this show going strong."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":99.173,"endTime":102.653,"body":"To become a supporter, simply click"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":99.173,"endTime":102.653,"body":"on the support link in the show"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":102.653,"endTime":105.263,"body":"notes of this episode, every episode."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":105.893,"endTime":106.703,"body":"Or simply visit."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":107.183,"endTime":110.273,"body":"Tiny url.com/climate pod."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":111.353,"endTime":115.073,"body":"Now without further ado with"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":111.353,"endTime":115.073,"body":"me on the show today, I have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":115.073,"endTime":116.273,"body":"my special guest, Emily."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":116.573,"endTime":118.073,"body":"Emily welcome to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":118.163,"endTime":119.453,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":119.919,"endTime":120.769,"body":"Hey, Tom."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":120.769,"endTime":121.129,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":121.129,"endTime":125.869,"body":"My name is Emily Pontecorvo and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":121.129,"endTime":125.869,"body":"I'm a staff writer for Grist."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":126.019,"endTime":128.589,"body":"Grist is a  climate news outlet."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":128.589,"endTime":133.899,"body":"We cover all angles of, the climate"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":128.589,"endTime":133.899,"body":"change story from science to solutions,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":133.899,"endTime":138.556,"body":"technology, business, environmental"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":133.899,"endTime":138.556,"body":"justice, and, and everything in between."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":139.096,"endTime":139.576,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":139.576,"endTime":143.746,"body":"And why, I mean, there's lots of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":139.576,"endTime":143.746,"body":"things happening in the world today."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":143.746,"endTime":150.086,"body":"Why has Grist, carved out this section"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":143.746,"endTime":150.086,"body":"of the news sphere to concentrate on."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":150.941,"endTime":153.971,"body":"Well, grist has actually"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":150.941,"endTime":153.971,"body":"been around for quite a long time."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":153.971,"endTime":158.316,"body":"I think it was founded in the late"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":153.971,"endTime":158.316,"body":"nineties in the age of, Al Gore's An"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":158.336,"endTime":162.746,"body":"Inconvenient Truth when Climate Change"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":158.336,"endTime":162.746,"body":"was first kind of becoming a more"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":163.076,"endTime":168.732,"body":"mainstream, conversation and issue and,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":163.076,"endTime":168.732,"body":"ever since then, the site has kind of been"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":168.732,"endTime":171.216,"body":"through, a lot of different iterations."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":171.216,"endTime":174.126,"body":"I think there was a period of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":171.216,"endTime":174.126,"body":"time where it was sort of bloggy."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":174.639,"endTime":181.112,"body":"These days, you know, we're, your typical"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":174.639,"endTime":181.112,"body":"sort of non-profit news outlet, but I"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":181.112,"endTime":186.086,"body":"think one kind of key shift that, Grist"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":181.112,"endTime":186.086,"body":"has gone through, at least is moving from"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":186.106,"endTime":190.846,"body":"a place where, you know, initially I think"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":186.106,"endTime":190.846,"body":"the idea behind the site was to really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":191.176,"endTime":194.506,"body":"get the word out about climate change,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":191.176,"endTime":194.506,"body":"to convince people that it was happening,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":194.506,"endTime":197.926,"body":"to convince people that it was important"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":194.506,"endTime":197.926,"body":"and they needed to pay attention to it."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":198.869,"endTime":201.789,"body":"And today that's really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":198.869,"endTime":201.789,"body":"not the goal anymore."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":201.789,"endTime":207.129,"body":"Today we're in a place where we feel that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":201.789,"endTime":207.129,"body":"most people believe in climate change."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":207.129,"endTime":210.819,"body":"They understand that it's happening and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":207.129,"endTime":210.819,"body":"they wanna know what to do about it."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":210.824,"endTime":214.089,"body":"They wanna know, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":210.824,"endTime":214.089,"body":"politicians are doing about it and,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":214.094,"endTime":218.549,"body":"and be able to hold them accountable"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":214.094,"endTime":218.549,"body":"to, to do something about it,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":219.009,"endTime":224.701,"body":"So to me, it's, cliched, but it is, I"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":219.009,"endTime":224.701,"body":"think, the biggest story of our time."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":224.701,"endTime":231.394,"body":"And, I think journalism is a really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":224.701,"endTime":231.394,"body":"important way for people to understand,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":231.894,"endTime":235.254,"body":"what's going on in regard to climate"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":231.894,"endTime":235.254,"body":"change and, and what they can do."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":236.244,"endTime":238.824,"body":"Okay, and why"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":236.244,"endTime":238.824,"body":"is it important to you?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":239.881,"endTime":243.741,"body":"There's sort of like"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":239.881,"endTime":243.741,"body":"the, personal history I have with,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":244.161,"endTime":248.061,"body":"I grew up going to a summer camp in"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":244.161,"endTime":248.061,"body":"the mountains and just, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":248.061,"endTime":253.071,"body":"developed a very strong attachment"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":248.061,"endTime":253.071,"body":"to nature and, and the outdoors."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":253.434,"endTime":258.114,"body":"I think that kind of builds in for me"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":253.434,"endTime":258.114,"body":"early on, just an appreciation of, the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":258.144,"endTime":260.814,"body":"environment and environmental issues."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":261.174,"endTime":266.844,"body":"But it's kind of hard for me to imagine"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":261.174,"endTime":266.844,"body":"it not being important to other people."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":266.849,"endTime":268.494,"body":"I mean, it's, it's very scary."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":269.624,"endTime":274.554,"body":", you know, it's, it's an existential"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":269.624,"endTime":274.554,"body":"threat, and it's a very, very"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":275.034,"endTime":278.514,"body":"challenging, problem to overcome."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":278.514,"endTime":283.164,"body":"And so, I think it's fascinating for"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":278.514,"endTime":283.164,"body":"that reason, but, but also just feels"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":283.554,"endTime":285.344,"body":"just very urgent on a day-to-day basis."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":285.984,"endTime":287.034,"body":"Mm, agreed."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":287.034,"endTime":289.884,"body":"And it, it's challenging as well"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":287.034,"endTime":289.884,"body":"because it is an urgent problem,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":289.884,"endTime":292.584,"body":"but it's also a long-term problem."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":292.584,"endTime":298.074,"body":"And you know, as a species we tend to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":292.584,"endTime":298.074,"body":"have a hard time dealing with problems"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":298.074,"endTime":299.964,"body":"that are not immediate in, in our face."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":299.964,"endTime":300.834,"body":"And this is both."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":301.747,"endTime":301.892,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":302.979,"endTime":307.779,"body":"You've been writing recently"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":302.979,"endTime":307.779,"body":"about what's called green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":307.989,"endTime":312.749,"body":"So for people who might be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":307.989,"endTime":312.749,"body":"unaware, I mean, hydrogen is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":313.379,"endTime":316.649,"body":"odorless, colorless, tasteless."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":316.709,"endTime":319.649,"body":"So what's this green hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":316.709,"endTime":319.649,"body":"stuff you're talking about?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":320.757,"endTime":321.184,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":321.514,"endTime":325.264,"body":"Just, just going back one, one"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":321.514,"endTime":325.264,"body":"moment to, to talk for another beat"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":325.264,"endTime":327.154,"body":"about, you know, climate journalism."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":327.214,"endTime":331.114,"body":"I've really tried to focus on,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":327.214,"endTime":331.114,"body":"in my reporting on solutions,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":331.594,"endTime":335.224,"body":"I'm really interested in, you"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":331.594,"endTime":335.224,"body":"know, technological solutions."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":335.229,"endTime":339.064,"body":"Obviously that's not going to, that's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":335.229,"endTime":339.064,"body":"not the only way to solve the problem,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":339.064,"endTime":341.041,"body":"but, it's what I've been focusing on."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":341.041,"endTime":345.431,"body":"And so green hydrogen is an emerging."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":347.106,"endTime":349.576,"body":"I don't know, you might"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":347.106,"endTime":349.576,"body":"call it a technology."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":349.576,"endTime":354.466,"body":"It's, it's really a fuel and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":349.576,"endTime":354.466,"body":"it has an interesting history."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":354.466,"endTime":357.856,"body":"For a long time people"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":354.466,"endTime":357.856,"body":"have thought, oh great."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":357.946,"endTime":360.616,"body":"Hydrogen might be the fuel of the future."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":360.621,"endTime":365.679,"body":"It might be the answer to climate change"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":360.621,"endTime":365.679,"body":"might be how we can power our cars and,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":365.679,"endTime":373.169,"body":"and other fuel powered processes, and the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":365.679,"endTime":373.169,"body":"wave of, hydrogen enthusiasm, has crested"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":373.589,"endTime":376.529,"body":"multiple times, I think in the past"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":373.589,"endTime":376.529,"body":"and then never really come to fruition."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":377.009,"endTime":380.119,"body":"But, this time is different."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":380.312,"endTime":385.072,"body":"The technology has come a long way"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":380.312,"endTime":385.072,"body":"to produce hydrogen and to use it."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":385.632,"endTime":390.327,"body":"There's a lot more investment in it"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":385.632,"endTime":390.327,"body":"from governments around the world."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":390.417,"endTime":394.617,"body":"And, so it's just a really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":390.417,"endTime":394.617,"body":"interesting moment for this solution."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":394.857,"endTime":400.084,"body":"And we can talk more kind of about,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":394.857,"endTime":400.084,"body":"the past and, and the future  as we go"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":400.084,"endTime":405.691,"body":"on, but, would you like me to under to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":400.084,"endTime":405.691,"body":"sort of, describe what hydrogen is or,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":405.721,"endTime":410.161,"body":"Yeah, I mean, yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":405.721,"endTime":410.161,"body":"mean we all know hydrogen, the most"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":410.161,"endTime":415.321,"body":"abundant element in the universe,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":410.161,"endTime":415.321,"body":"but what is green hydrogen as opposed"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":415.326,"endTime":417.511,"body":"to any other kind of hydrogen?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":417.541,"endTime":422.941,"body":"I mean, we hear people talking about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":417.541,"endTime":422.941,"body":"brown hydrogen and blue hydrogen, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":423.391,"endTime":428.296,"body":"I think gray hydrogen as well maybe,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":423.391,"endTime":428.296,"body":"and, and green hydrogen, so, For"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":428.296,"endTime":431.626,"body":"people who might have come across those"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":428.296,"endTime":431.626,"body":"terms and are kind of scratching their"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":431.626,"endTime":433.996,"body":"heads, could you give us a quick 1 0 1?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":435.311,"endTime":436.391,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":436.396,"endTime":442.501,"body":"So, hydrogen is a molecule that we"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":436.396,"endTime":442.501,"body":"already use throughout the economy."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":442.551,"endTime":444.621,"body":"We use it to produce fertilizer."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":444.621,"endTime":447.231,"body":"We use it to refine oil and gas."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":447.894,"endTime":451.919,"body":"And we use it in, in various other"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":447.894,"endTime":451.919,"body":"sort of industrial processes."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":452.459,"endTime":457.276,"body":"But the hydrogen that we use today is,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":452.459,"endTime":457.276,"body":"some people , if you're, if you're using"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":457.276,"endTime":461.902,"body":"this sort of like rainbow color scheme,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":457.276,"endTime":461.902,"body":"the hydrogen we use today is gray."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":461.907,"endTime":465.142,"body":"It's made from either coal or natural gas."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":465.562,"endTime":470.426,"body":"And the process of making that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":465.562,"endTime":470.426,"body":"hydrogen, releases carbon dioxide."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":470.426,"endTime":474.246,"body":"So, you know, it's one of these"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":470.426,"endTime":474.246,"body":"many, many challenges that we have"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":474.246,"endTime":476.076,"body":"to solve to solve climate change."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":476.676,"endTime":481.739,"body":"So there's a few different layers to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":476.676,"endTime":481.739,"body":"this kind of, future for hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":481.739,"endTime":486.549,"body":"But, one of the, sort of the fundamental,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":481.739,"endTime":486.549,"body":"the sort of baseline problems to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":486.554,"endTime":490.929,"body":"solve is for all this hydrogen that we"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":486.554,"endTime":490.929,"body":"already use and need in our economy."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":490.929,"endTime":493.139,"body":"How can we make that process cleaner?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":494.119,"endTime":496.881,"body":"And, there are a few"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":494.119,"endTime":496.881,"body":"different ways to do this."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":497.421,"endTime":501.381,"body":"One is, you know, you can take this"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":497.421,"endTime":501.381,"body":"sort of process that exists today"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":501.381,"endTime":504.741,"body":"where you use coal or natural gas"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":501.381,"endTime":504.741,"body":"to produce hydrogen and you add"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":504.831,"endTime":506.601,"body":"carbon capture equipment to it."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":507.171,"endTime":510.381,"body":"And so you capture any emissions"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":507.171,"endTime":510.381,"body":"that come out of that process and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":510.381,"endTime":514.731,"body":"you sequester them underground"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":510.381,"endTime":514.731,"body":"and you've reduced, the emissions."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":515.217,"endTime":516.927,"body":"That's often called blue hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":517.767,"endTime":523.081,"body":"Then green hydrogen is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":517.767,"endTime":523.081,"body":"I think favored by, more, you"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":523.081,"endTime":527.791,"body":"know, environmentalists and climate"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":523.081,"endTime":527.791,"body":"advocates because it removes natural"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":527.791,"endTime":529.441,"body":"gas from the picture altogether."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":530.011,"endTime":535.531,"body":"And with green hydrogen, you basically"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":530.011,"endTime":535.531,"body":"take something called an electrolyzer."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":535.591,"endTime":540.646,"body":"It's a you know machine that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":535.591,"endTime":540.646,"body":"can zap, a water molecule."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":540.646,"endTime":545.476,"body":"So you have H two and O, it zaps the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":540.646,"endTime":545.476,"body":"water molecule and splits it in half"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":545.926,"endTime":548.326,"body":"and you've got hydrogen and oxygen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":548.836,"endTime":552.766,"body":"And so it, it produces that hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":548.836,"endTime":552.766,"body":"without releasing any emissions."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":553.096,"endTime":557.551,"body":"That being said, when you're using"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":553.096,"endTime":557.551,"body":"electricity, it really matters"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":557.551,"endTime":559.081,"body":"where that electricity comes from."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":559.741,"endTime":564.177,"body":"And so one of the things that I've been"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":559.741,"endTime":564.177,"body":"writing about is, if we make hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":564.177,"endTime":569.434,"body":"using electricity, how do we kind of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":564.177,"endTime":569.434,"body":"make sure that that electricity is clean?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":570.114,"endTime":570.354,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":570.384,"endTime":572.274,"body":"So I'll, I'll just stop there for now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":572.859,"endTime":573.279,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":573.279,"endTime":573.519,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":573.519,"endTime":579.739,"body":"And it's, so the, the idea is that it"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":573.519,"endTime":579.739,"body":"should to pro, to produce emissions"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":579.744,"endTime":586.224,"body":"free green hydrogen, it should use"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":579.744,"endTime":586.224,"body":"solely renewable electricity, but also"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":587.334,"endTime":593.214,"body":"if you are producing hydrogen using,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":587.334,"endTime":593.214,"body":"and you are using renewable energy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":593.214,"endTime":598.434,"body":"to produce it, let's say, isn't the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":593.214,"endTime":598.434,"body":"production of the hydrogen using that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":598.434,"endTime":604.974,"body":"renewable energy, taking renewable energy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":598.434,"endTime":604.974,"body":"away from something else unless it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":605.964,"endTime":609.474,"body":"additional renewable energy that you've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":605.964,"endTime":609.474,"body":"built specifically for that purpose."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":610.474,"endTime":614.434,"body":"Yeah, so this is"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":610.474,"endTime":614.434,"body":"one of the sort of risks and fears"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":614.434,"endTime":619.174,"body":"that people have around building up"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":614.434,"endTime":619.174,"body":"a new hydrogen economy, especially"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":619.179,"endTime":620.854,"body":"one that relies on green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":621.394,"endTime":623.644,"body":"You know, hydrogen from"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":621.394,"endTime":623.644,"body":"renewable electricity."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":624.214,"endTime":625.329,"body":"It gets very complicated."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":625.439,"endTime":629.609,"body":"So I'm, so, so maybe bear,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":625.439,"endTime":629.609,"body":"bear with me for a moment."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":631.314,"endTime":631.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":631.439,"endTime":634.762,"body":"If you think about,  I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":631.439,"endTime":634.762,"body":"a hydrogen producer."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":634.882,"endTime":639.857,"body":"I'm gonna build a new hydrogen plant"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":634.882,"endTime":639.857,"body":"and I'm gonna plug into the grid."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":640.612,"endTime":644.127,"body":"and there's various reasons that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":640.612,"endTime":644.127,"body":"hydrogen producers would wanna plug"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":644.127,"endTime":647.677,"body":"into the grid rather than produce"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":644.127,"endTime":647.677,"body":"their own electricity offsite."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":648.247,"endTime":652.687,"body":"A lot of potential buyers of hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":648.247,"endTime":652.687,"body":"might need a constant stream of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":652.687,"endTime":655.694,"body":"it, so they might need it to be"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":652.687,"endTime":655.694,"body":"producing around the clock and the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":655.694,"endTime":657.554,"body":"grid can provide that stability."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":658.094,"endTime":662.054,"body":"So once you plug into the grid,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":658.094,"endTime":662.054,"body":"you're getting electricity from"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":662.114,"endTime":666.524,"body":"whatever source is nearest to you and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":662.114,"endTime":666.524,"body":"is operating at, you know, the time"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":666.524,"endTime":667.694,"body":"that you're drawing that electricity."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":668.495,"endTime":674.045,"body":"So it becomes really challenging to say,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":668.495,"endTime":674.045,"body":"this electricity that I'm using is clean."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":674.135,"endTime":680.195,"body":"Even if you, let's say contract"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":674.135,"endTime":680.195,"body":"with a solar farm or with a wind"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":680.195,"endTime":685.145,"body":"farm, that, solar or wind farm"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":680.195,"endTime":685.145,"body":"is not necessarily sending its"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":685.585,"endTime":687.665,"body":"electrons to your , to your site."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":688.545,"endTime":693.26,"body":". And you know, once the wind stops blowing"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":688.545,"endTime":693.26,"body":"or the, the sun goes down and your plant"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":693.26,"endTime":698.27,"body":"is still operating, you're likely drawing"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":693.26,"endTime":698.27,"body":"power from a natural gas plant or a coal"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":698.27,"endTime":700.37,"body":"plant or some other source that's there."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":701.177,"endTime":705.467,"body":"And the question that you just asked"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":701.177,"endTime":705.467,"body":"about, sort of, people often refer to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":705.467,"endTime":709.787,"body":"it as sort of cannibalizing, renewable"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":705.467,"endTime":709.787,"body":"energy that that exists today."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":709.787,"endTime":717.44,"body":"So, so if I'm that new hydrogen plant"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":709.787,"endTime":717.44,"body":"and, I turned my plant online and I,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":717.77,"endTime":721.34,"body":"you know, let's say I'm contracting"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":717.77,"endTime":721.34,"body":"with a solar farm in my, even in my"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":721.34,"endTime":723.89,"body":"region, that can supply my plant."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":724.46,"endTime":729.35,"body":"If that plant already existed, then I'm"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":724.46,"endTime":729.35,"body":"just taking away renewable energy that,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":729.41,"endTime":733.124,"body":"that might have gone to, power people's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":729.41,"endTime":733.124,"body":"homes or, or you know, all the other"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":733.124,"endTime":735.044,"body":"u uses that we have for electricity."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":735.464,"endTime":742.265,"body":"And so, there's, this idea that hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":735.464,"endTime":742.265,"body":"producers need to bring their own power,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":742.625,"endTime":748.205,"body":", B Y O P, you know, they need to, this,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":742.625,"endTime":748.205,"body":"this renewable electricity needs to be"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":748.205,"endTime":753.515,"body":"additional to any electricity that exists"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":748.205,"endTime":753.515,"body":"on the grid today, because otherwise it's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":753.52,"endTime":758.865,"body":"just lowering the overall, availability"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":753.52,"endTime":758.865,"body":"of, of renewable energy for other users."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":759.915,"endTime":761.235,"body":"Yep, yep, exactly."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":762.205,"endTime":767.065,"body":"You mentioned though, that it is,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":762.205,"endTime":767.065,"body":"I mean, hydrogen is used today"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":767.065,"endTime":769.135,"body":"in various industrial processes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":769.832,"endTime":773.252,"body":"and fertilizer was one"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":769.832,"endTime":773.252,"body":"of the examples you used."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":773.432,"endTime":781.282,"body":"I've also heard, people propose using"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":773.432,"endTime":781.282,"body":"hydrogen for everything from, powering"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":782.332,"endTime":786.682,"body":"hydrogen fuel cell cars, which are on"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":782.332,"endTime":786.682,"body":"the road today in a small number, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":786.682,"endTime":793.112,"body":"they are, they do exist, right the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":786.682,"endTime":793.112,"body":"way through to powering ocean liners,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":793.262,"endTime":797.115,"body":"crossing the ocean, the likes of, not"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":793.262,"endTime":797.115,"body":"necessarily cruise ships, but maybe,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":797.325,"endTime":801.825,"body":"but I'm thinking more in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":797.325,"endTime":801.825,"body":"kind of container, uh, vessels that, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":801.825,"endTime":806.175,"body":"know, go from port to port, dropping off"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":801.825,"endTime":806.175,"body":"large numbers of containers, which today"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":806.355,"endTime":808.095,"body":"typically use the likes of bunker fuel."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":809.317,"endTime":810.702,"body":"And, and lots of things in between."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":810.702,"endTime":812.952,"body":"Everything from smelting,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":810.702,"endTime":812.952,"body":"iron, et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":813.795,"endTime":818.805,"body":"Are those the, I mean, tho those today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":813.795,"endTime":818.805,"body":"those kind of processes today, many"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":818.805,"endTime":821.205,"body":"of them are highly, highly polluting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":821.655,"endTime":826.725,"body":"So is the idea that this green hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":821.655,"endTime":826.725,"body":"would be able to step in, take their"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":826.725,"endTime":832.815,"body":"place, and thereby massively reduce"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":826.725,"endTime":832.815,"body":"the emissions of some of these process?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":834.509,"endTime":838.729,"body":"Yeah, so this is sort"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":834.509,"endTime":838.729,"body":"of like the future and the hype behind"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":839.259,"endTime":845.419,"body":"hydrogen, making it cleaner, getting"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":839.259,"endTime":845.419,"body":"it right because it can, even though,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":845.419,"endTime":850.789,"body":"you know, we, we use it today and we"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":845.419,"endTime":850.789,"body":"wanna sort of prioritize the cleaning up"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":850.849,"endTime":852.469,"body":"the things that we already use it for."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":852.799,"endTime":857.059,"body":"It does have potential to decarbonize"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":852.799,"endTime":857.059,"body":"a lot of other industries."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":857.089,"endTime":861.859,"body":"And some of the ones you just"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":857.089,"endTime":861.859,"body":"mentioned, like shipping and flying"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":861.859,"endTime":868.562,"body":"and basically as, as a fuel, as an"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":861.859,"endTime":868.562,"body":"energy dense fuel people have proposed"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":868.567,"endTime":870.222,"body":"using it for any number of things."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":870.227,"endTime":873.672,"body":"There's this joke that it's sort of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":870.227,"endTime":873.672,"body":"the Swiss Army knife of the energy"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":873.672,"endTime":878.742,"body":"transition and we can, plop it"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":873.672,"endTime":878.742,"body":"in for fossil fuels in any number"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":878.742,"endTime":880.882,"body":"of industries and call it a day."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":881.412,"endTime":885.815,"body":"That idea I think is dangerous"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":881.412,"endTime":885.815,"body":"and  ultimately is not really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":885.815,"endTime":887.285,"body":"how things will play out."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":887.915,"endTime":891.815,"body":"I don't know if you're familiar with"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":887.915,"endTime":891.815,"body":"Michael Leibreich, the energy analyst,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":891.815,"endTime":897.695,"body":"but you know, he has famously sort of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":891.815,"endTime":897.695,"body":"put all of the potential end uses for"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":897.695,"endTime":902.645,"body":"hydrogen in a hydrogen ladder and,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":897.695,"endTime":902.645,"body":"looked at like, ultimately, which"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":902.645,"endTime":904.025,"body":"of these things are gonna win out."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":904.025,"endTime":909.695,"body":"Because, hydrogen producing it, it"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":904.025,"endTime":909.695,"body":"can be expensive, more expensive than"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":909.695,"endTime":916.445,"body":"fossil fuels, and also more expensive"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":909.695,"endTime":916.445,"body":"than potentially just using electricity."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":916.45,"endTime":921.769,"body":"So, you know, with just a passenger"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":916.45,"endTime":921.769,"body":"car, at one point people talked about"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":923.119,"endTime":925.039,"body":"fueling passenger cars with hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":925.459,"endTime":929.299,"body":"But what we've ultimately learned"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":925.459,"endTime":929.299,"body":"with Tesla and other companies"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":929.299,"endTime":933.139,"body":"is that actually just, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":929.299,"endTime":933.139,"body":"installing a battery and making an"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":933.509,"endTime":935.209,"body":"electric car is a lot more affordable."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":935.899,"endTime":939.469,"body":"There's plenty of examples like that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":935.899,"endTime":939.469,"body":"where there are these trade-offs"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":939.474,"endTime":944.179,"body":"between electrifying versus trying"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":939.474,"endTime":944.179,"body":"to cling to, you know, a fuel-based"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":944.179,"endTime":950.92,"body":"system and the trade-offs are"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":944.179,"endTime":950.92,"body":"between the energy used and the cost."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":951.427,"endTime":955.227,"body":"So this ladder that Michael Leibreich"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":951.427,"endTime":955.227,"body":"has, put together, kind of looks at,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":955.227,"endTime":959.337,"body":"what's ultimately gonna be competitive"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":955.227,"endTime":959.337,"body":"for hydrogen, which, which industries,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":959.847,"endTime":963.417,"body":"and, you know, what will make sense"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":959.847,"endTime":963.417,"body":"from an energy efficiency standpoint."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":963.987,"endTime":967.947,"body":"And so, I mean, I've come"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":963.987,"endTime":967.947,"body":"across that I, I know of Michael, but for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":967.952,"endTime":972.657,"body":"people listening who might not have come"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":967.952,"endTime":972.657,"body":"across it, can you, and I'll link to,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":972.657,"endTime":974.097,"body":"I'll link to it in the show notes as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":974.469,"endTime":977.469,"body":"Can you talk about some of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":974.469,"endTime":977.469,"body":"the, the winners and losers?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":977.469,"endTime":981.339,"body":"I mean, personal transportation"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":977.469,"endTime":981.339,"body":"obviously a big loser just in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":981.339,"endTime":983.229,"body":"terms of both cost and efficiency."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":983.234,"endTime":986.589,"body":"But, some of the winners out"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":983.234,"endTime":986.589,"body":"there, some places where hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":986.594,"endTime":988.029,"body":"might actually make a difference."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":989.804,"endTime":994.264,"body":"Yeah, so, so  he"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":989.804,"endTime":994.264,"body":"kind of ranks these, end uses"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":994.264,"endTime":996.814,"body":"from unavoidable to uncompetitive."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":996.874,"endTime":1001.794,"body":"And, you know, the unavoidable ones"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":996.874,"endTime":1001.794,"body":"are like fertilizer for example,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1001.794,"endTime":1006.354,"body":"because we need fertilizer to feed"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1001.794,"endTime":1006.354,"body":"a growing population and that's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1006.354,"endTime":1007.764,"body":"what we use hydrogen for today."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1007.769,"endTime":1011.344,"body":"So, we should really try to clean"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1007.769,"endTime":1011.344,"body":"up that process and, continue,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1011.907,"endTime":1013.647,"body":"to use hydrogen for fertiliser."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1014.417,"endTime":1017.492,"body":"Another big one as I just"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1014.417,"endTime":1017.492,"body":"mentioned was, is shipping."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1017.625,"endTime":1023.535,"body":"This is sort of an interesting one"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1017.625,"endTime":1023.535,"body":"because a lot of experts seem to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1023.54,"endTime":1028.875,"body":"think that we're not gonna actually"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1023.54,"endTime":1028.875,"body":"use hydrogen itself for shipping to,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1029.115,"endTime":1031.095,"body":"to power big, you know, cargo ships."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1031.455,"endTime":1036.609,"body":"But, actually another sort of product that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1031.455,"endTime":1036.609,"body":"you can make from hydrogen is ammonia."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1036.999,"endTime":1041.149,"body":"Ammonia is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1036.999,"endTime":1041.149,"body":"much easier to transport."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1041.169,"endTime":1046.145,"body":"And, so there's, there's promise of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1041.169,"endTime":1046.145,"body":"using ammonia as a, as a shipping fuel."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1047.392,"endTime":1049.402,"body":"Another big one is, is steel making."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1049.63,"endTime":1055.115,"body":"Today we use coal as a sort of feed"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1049.63,"endTime":1055.115,"body":"stock in the steel making process,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1055.115,"endTime":1059.495,"body":"and there's a lot of promise around"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1055.115,"endTime":1059.495,"body":"using hydrogen to replace that."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1060.297,"endTime":1064.072,"body":"Another big one is, and this is a pretty"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1060.297,"endTime":1064.072,"body":"interesting one when it comes to that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1064.072,"endTime":1070.432,"body":"whole conversation around grid electricity"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1064.072,"endTime":1070.432,"body":"is long-term battery storage for the grid."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1070.462,"endTime":1077.812,"body":"So you could use wind and solar power"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1070.462,"endTime":1077.812,"body":"from the grid to produce hydrogen when"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1077.812,"endTime":1081.502,"body":"you have, you know, really, really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1077.812,"endTime":1081.502,"body":"windy day or, or sunny afternoon and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1081.507,"endTime":1086.482,"body":"you have excess power, and then you"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1081.507,"endTime":1086.482,"body":"could store that energy as hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1087.067,"endTime":1093.274,"body":"In a tank or underground for, however"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1087.067,"endTime":1093.274,"body":"long you need it, and then, burn it again."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1093.274,"endTime":1098.464,"body":"You can either combust it in a fuel cell"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1093.274,"endTime":1098.464,"body":"or burn it in a power plant and, produce"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1098.469,"endTime":1100.804,"body":"power later on when, when you need it."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1101.42,"endTime":1102.41,"body":"So those are just a couple."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1102.97,"endTime":1103.45,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1103.48,"endTime":1104.17,"body":"Sure, sure, sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1104.56,"endTime":1109.107,"body":"I guess I think one, one of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1104.56,"endTime":1109.107,"body":"issues, with the likes of using it for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1109.107,"endTime":1111.757,"body":"energy storage is it's inefficiency."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1111.757,"endTime":1115.807,"body":"And that's the, the, the inefficiency"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1111.757,"endTime":1115.807,"body":"is a, is a problem all around,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1115.807,"endTime":1118.447,"body":"not just for energy storage, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1115.807,"endTime":1118.447,"body":"it's one of the big problems as"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1118.447,"endTime":1120.187,"body":"well with personal transportation."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1120.637,"endTime":1128.597,"body":"I saw a figure where in, if you use using"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1120.637,"endTime":1128.597,"body":"in a fuel cell car, something like, 30%"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1128.687,"endTime":1134.597,"body":"of the energy in a fuel cell car actually"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1128.687,"endTime":1134.597,"body":"goes to turning the wheels, uh, similar"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1134.597,"endTime":1136.187,"body":"to an internal combustion engine vehicle."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1136.187,"endTime":1139.757,"body":"Whereas with the full battery electric"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1136.187,"endTime":1139.757,"body":"vehicle, it's about 80% of the energy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1139.757,"endTime":1140.897,"body":"goes to actually turning the wheels."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1140.897,"endTime":1143.417,"body":"So, uh, you're losing 70%."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1143.942,"endTime":1150.152,"body":"Of it in a fuel cell vehicle"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1143.942,"endTime":1150.152,"body":"to heat, and conversion losses."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1150.482,"endTime":1155.119,"body":"And so, in that sense, if you're using"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1150.482,"endTime":1155.119,"body":"renewable energy, you would need two"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1155.119,"endTime":1159.409,"body":"to three times as many wind turbines"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1155.119,"endTime":1159.409,"body":"or solar panels to get the same"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1159.414,"endTime":1161.659,"body":"amount of miles out of your vehicle."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1162.409,"endTime":1163.595,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1163.769,"endTime":1166.889,"body":"you know, and I think that, this is"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1163.769,"endTime":1166.889,"body":"one, you know, this idea of using"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1166.889,"endTime":1172.189,"body":"it for, electricity is, still, being"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1166.889,"endTime":1172.189,"body":"debated pretty heavily I think."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1172.549,"endTime":1175.969,"body":"Some experts feel that, that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1172.549,"endTime":1175.969,"body":"those trade-offs are worthwhile."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1175.969,"endTime":1181.169,"body":"That, we do need these kinds of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1175.969,"endTime":1181.169,"body":"resources that are available anytime"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1181.439,"endTime":1186.274,"body":"you need them for the grid and that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1181.439,"endTime":1186.274,"body":"this is one of the more promising"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1186.484,"endTime":1190.594,"body":"possibilities there, despite the,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1186.484,"endTime":1190.594,"body":"energy lost in the conversion."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1190.939,"endTime":1191.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1191.539,"endTime":1192.349,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1192.459,"endTime":1198.399,"body":"I think energy storage is just by"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1192.459,"endTime":1198.399,"body":"virtue of the fact that renewables"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1198.404,"endTime":1202.689,"body":"are becoming a greater and greater"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1198.404,"endTime":1202.689,"body":"percentage, thankfully, of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1202.689,"endTime":1203.979,"body":"way we generate electricity."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1204.279,"endTime":1209.182,"body":"I think energy storage is going to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1204.279,"endTime":1209.182,"body":"one of the big, areas of innovation."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1209.912,"endTime":1212.342,"body":"In the next, I mean, it's been"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1209.912,"endTime":1212.342,"body":"huge in the last 10 years."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1212.342,"endTime":1215.722,"body":"We've seen lithium ion battery"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1212.342,"endTime":1215.722,"body":"costs fall 90%, or in excessive"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1215.722,"endTime":1217.972,"body":"90% in the last 10, 12 years."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1218.272,"endTime":1222.412,"body":"But I think in the next 10, 12, 20"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1218.272,"endTime":1222.412,"body":"years, we're gonna see even more"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1222.562,"endTime":1224.272,"body":"innovation in the energy storage space."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1225.642,"endTime":1226.582,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1226.582,"endTime":1229.492,"body":"I mean, I, I think it's one of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1226.582,"endTime":1229.492,"body":"the most exciting and interesting"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1229.732,"endTime":1231.659,"body":"parts of, decarbonization."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1231.659,"endTime":1236.099,"body":"There's just so many different"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1231.659,"endTime":1236.099,"body":"types of battery chemistries that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1236.099,"endTime":1241.825,"body":"people are, developing and also"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1236.099,"endTime":1241.825,"body":"just really innovative, ideas"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1241.825,"endTime":1247.195,"body":"around how we use the grid and,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1241.825,"endTime":1247.195,"body":"and, demand side, solutions where"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1248.185,"endTime":1252.265,"body":"customers get paid to turn down their"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1248.185,"endTime":1252.265,"body":"thermostats and, and things like that."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1252.325,"endTime":1254.385,"body":"I think all of those solutions"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1252.325,"endTime":1254.385,"body":"are really interesting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1255.045,"endTime":1258.822,"body":"I remember speaking"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1255.045,"endTime":1258.822,"body":"about this at an event back in, 2009 I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1258.822,"endTime":1263.455,"body":"think it was, where, I was mentioning"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1258.822,"endTime":1263.455,"body":"the fact that is often unappreciated"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1263.455,"endTime":1268.525,"body":"by people, but things like heat and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1263.455,"endTime":1268.525,"body":"cold are forms of energy storage."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1268.765,"endTime":1275.245,"body":"So, for example, if you had a, an"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1268.765,"endTime":1275.245,"body":"electric water immersion heater, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1275.245,"endTime":1280.975,"body":"could, when electricity is cheap, pull"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1275.245,"endTime":1280.975,"body":"in lots and lots and lots of electricity"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1280.98,"endTime":1285.765,"body":"to heat the water to a very high level,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1280.98,"endTime":1285.765,"body":"and then let it drift down during the,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1285.825,"endTime":1289.905,"body":"the day when electricity costs go up,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1285.825,"endTime":1289.905,"body":"for example, let it drift down from"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1289.905,"endTime":1294.329,"body":"maybe 90 degrees to 50 degrees I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1289.905,"endTime":1294.329,"body":"talking centigrade at this point, sorry."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1294.887,"endTime":1299.572,"body":"And that way, it's to your point about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1294.887,"endTime":1299.572,"body":"demand response, about shaping the demand"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1299.572,"endTime":1304.882,"body":"and using pricing signals and smart"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1299.572,"endTime":1304.882,"body":"devices to listen to the price, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1304.882,"endTime":1307.192,"body":"then change their behavior accordingly."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1307.192,"endTime":1311.542,"body":"And similarly with cold, you can,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1307.192,"endTime":1311.542,"body":"again, when electricity is cheap, when"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1311.547,"endTime":1316.522,"body":"it's abundant, uh, suck in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1311.547,"endTime":1316.522,"body":"electricity and freeze a freezer to,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1316.859,"endTime":1319.209,"body":"minus 20, minus 30, whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1319.209,"endTime":1323.794,"body":"And then when electricity is expensive,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1319.209,"endTime":1323.794,"body":"when it's in high demand, let the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1323.794,"endTime":1327.784,"body":"temperature drift back up and, let"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1323.794,"endTime":1327.784,"body":"it drift back up to, minus 10, minus"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1327.784,"endTime":1331.324,"body":"five, whatever it is, as long as if"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1327.784,"endTime":1331.324,"body":"it's, if it's food storage, as long"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1331.324,"endTime":1334.174,"body":"as the food is still frozen, the food"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1331.324,"endTime":1334.174,"body":"doesn't care if it's minus five or"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1334.174,"endTime":1335.944,"body":"minus 10, or minus 15 or minus 40."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1336.244,"endTime":1339.904,"body":"So, you know, tho those kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1336.244,"endTime":1339.904,"body":"innovations I think are still"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1340.204,"endTime":1343.774,"body":"out there to happen, that we get"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1340.204,"endTime":1343.774,"body":"these smart, cold and hot devices."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1344.239,"endTime":1348.109,"body":"Listening to signals from the grid,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1344.239,"endTime":1348.109,"body":"and it's, it's, I think, one of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1348.109,"endTime":1351.059,"body":"the, the promises of smart grid"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1348.109,"endTime":1351.059,"body":"technology, which has to come yet."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1352.654,"endTime":1353.944,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1353.944,"endTime":1359.257,"body":"And kind of bringing that back to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1353.944,"endTime":1359.257,"body":"the hydrogen question, I think that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1360.637,"endTime":1364.35,"body":"the, some of the things that you just"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1360.637,"endTime":1364.35,"body":"mentioned, there's gonna be increasing"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1364.35,"endTime":1370.86,"body":"competition for this quote unquote excess"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1364.35,"endTime":1370.86,"body":"renewable energy that we ostensibly"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1370.865,"endTime":1372.75,"body":"might have someday in the future."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1373.404,"endTime":1377.867,"body":"There's a lot of business models that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1373.404,"endTime":1377.867,"body":"are based on this idea that we will"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1377.867,"endTime":1383.332,"body":"have excess solar or excess wind and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1377.867,"endTime":1383.332,"body":"we can store it or use it when it's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1383.332,"endTime":1385.842,"body":"cheap and then, dispatch it later."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1386.525,"endTime":1390.675,"body":"And I think that there's really gonna"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1386.525,"endTime":1390.675,"body":"be a lot of competition for that."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1390.675,"endTime":1394.749,"body":"And it's gonna be interesting"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1390.675,"endTime":1394.749,"body":"to see, which types of companies"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1395.409,"endTime":1401.079,"body":"ultimately gain, gain power over,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1395.409,"endTime":1401.079,"body":"over that marginal renewable energy."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1401.084,"endTime":1406.809,"body":"Will it be hydrogen producers or will it"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1401.084,"endTime":1406.809,"body":"be, homeowners with batteries or, will"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1406.809,"endTime":1411.642,"body":"we, will we really have so much access"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1406.809,"endTime":1411.642,"body":"to spare for all these different uses."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1412.152,"endTime":1412.392,"body":"And it."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1412.722,"endTime":1416.112,"body":"Fascinating to watch as well, how"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1412.722,"endTime":1416.112,"body":"this is developing in other countries."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1416.112,"endTime":1421.182,"body":"I mean, we see there are times in Denmark,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1416.112,"endTime":1421.182,"body":"for example, when the wind energy is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1421.182,"endTime":1424.002,"body":"producing 140% of the country's demand."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1424.422,"endTime":1427.992,"body":"And rather than curtailing the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1424.422,"endTime":1427.992,"body":"production, they're exporting it to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1428.022,"endTime":1429.642,"body":"neighboring countries, for example."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1429.972,"endTime":1434.692,"body":"And in the likes of the UK, again,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1429.972,"endTime":1434.692,"body":"they have a lot of offshore wind."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1435.499,"endTime":1438.409,"body":"And there's a company there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1435.499,"endTime":1438.409,"body":"called Octopus Energy."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1438.829,"endTime":1444.949,"body":"And what Octopus Energy do is they"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1438.829,"endTime":1444.949,"body":"have specific tariffs where if you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1444.949,"endTime":1450.199,"body":"have an EV for example, uh, or you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1444.949,"endTime":1450.199,"body":"a heavy electricity user, they will"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1450.319,"endTime":1454.579,"body":"tell you 24 hours ahead of time what"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1450.319,"endTime":1454.579,"body":"the day ahead price is going to be."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1454.819,"endTime":1460.52,"body":"So they'll tell you, okay, this coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1454.819,"endTime":1460.52,"body":"weekend, between the hours of Saturday,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1460.52,"endTime":1463.85,"body":"whatever to Sunday whatever the price"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1460.52,"endTime":1463.85,"body":"of electricity will go negative."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1464.24,"endTime":1466.1,"body":"So at that point, it would be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1464.24,"endTime":1466.1,"body":"a good time to plug in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1466.49,"endTime":1468.02,"body":"ev and literally this happens."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1468.244,"endTime":1470.104,"body":"The electricity pricing goes negative."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1470.284,"endTime":1474.304,"body":"So if you have an ev you're actually"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1470.284,"endTime":1474.304,"body":"being paid to charge your car."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1474.754,"endTime":1478.594,"body":"And then of course you unplug it when the,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1474.754,"endTime":1478.594,"body":"when it goes positive and you know, so on."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1478.594,"endTime":1485.904,"body":"And if we get to times when EVs are"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1478.594,"endTime":1485.904,"body":"bidirectional, in their energy, or we have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1485.909,"endTime":1490.104,"body":"a smart grid situation where there's a,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1485.909,"endTime":1490.104,"body":"a big battery bank and it's sucking in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1490.104,"endTime":1491.514,"body":"electricity when it's negatively priced."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1491.724,"endTime":1494.064,"body":"Then of course, when electricity"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1491.724,"endTime":1494.064,"body":"goes positive, it sells it again."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1494.064,"endTime":1495.624,"body":"So it's getting paid in both directions."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1525.344,"endTime":1526.2440000000001,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1525.344,"endTime":1526.2440000000001,"body":"really interesting."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1526.2440000000001,"endTime":1527.534,"body":"Yeah, I've heard about octopus energy."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1527.534,"endTime":1530.15,"body":"I didn't, I didn't know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1527.534,"endTime":1530.15,"body":"that was all what they did."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1531.3200000000002,"endTime":1533.804,"body":"So, there's a new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1531.3200000000002,"endTime":1533.804,"body":"thing coming here in Europe called"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1533.804,"endTime":1537.104,"body":"the EU Green Hydrogen Rules."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1537.614,"endTime":1539.354,"body":"You've, mentioned a bit about that."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1539.354,"endTime":1542.684,"body":"Do you want to talk to the listeners"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1539.354,"endTime":1542.684,"body":"and explain what that's about?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1544.574,"endTime":1545.144,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1545.144,"endTime":1549.824,"body":"well, so the EU has been kind of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1545.144,"endTime":1549.824,"body":"ahead of, of the US on a lot of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1549.829,"endTime":1551.324,"body":"this stuff around green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1551.329,"endTime":1554.174,"body":"The, the industry has started"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1551.329,"endTime":1554.174,"body":"developing there much sooner and there"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1554.174,"endTime":1556.034,"body":"was more support for it earlier on."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1556.7240000000002,"endTime":1560.777,"body":"But interestingly, I think the US"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1556.7240000000002,"endTime":1560.777,"body":"has caught up and now this similar"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1560.777,"endTime":1564.787,"body":"conversation is kind of happening at"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1560.777,"endTime":1564.787,"body":"the same time, in the EU as as in the US"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1564.877,"endTime":1568.237,"body":"around how do we define green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1568.297,"endTime":1572.9470000000001,"body":"There's this issue of, producers"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1568.297,"endTime":1572.9470000000001,"body":"wanting to plug into the grid and claim"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1572.9470000000001,"endTime":1575.137,"body":"they're green and can they do that?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1575.137,"endTime":1576.967,"body":"And if so, what are the rules?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1577.48,"endTime":1583.589,"body":"And those rules will ultimately determine"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1577.48,"endTime":1583.589,"body":"whether they qualify for subsidies,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1583.589,"endTime":1588.8690000000001,"body":"you know, whether they can be a part"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1583.589,"endTime":1588.8690000000001,"body":"of the renewable energy mix later on."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1589.3020000000001,"endTime":1597.0720000000001,"body":"And so the EU has, come out with a few"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1589.3020000000001,"endTime":1597.0720000000001,"body":"sort of drafts of these rules and I think"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1597.132,"endTime":1601.8790000000001,"body":"a few days ago, last week, I believe,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1597.132,"endTime":1601.8790000000001,"body":"the EU published the, what I think is"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1601.8790000000001,"endTime":1608.3590000000002,"body":"the final draft, and they actually,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1601.8790000000001,"endTime":1608.3590000000002,"body":"ended up with, relatively strict rules."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1608.895,"endTime":1611.8020000000001,"body":"There's kind of three criteria"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1608.895,"endTime":1611.8020000000001,"body":"that you can look at when you're"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1611.807,"endTime":1614.922,"body":"looking at, you know, how green"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1611.807,"endTime":1614.922,"body":"is this hydrogen from the grid."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1615.5520000000001,"endTime":1618.702,"body":"One is called a additionality, so we"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1615.5520000000001,"endTime":1618.702,"body":"talked about that a little bit earlier."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1618.702,"endTime":1623.142,"body":"It's this idea that if you were"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1618.702,"endTime":1623.142,"body":"gonna turn your, your hydrogen plant"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1623.142,"endTime":1624.7920000000001,"body":"on, did you bring your own power?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1624.7920000000001,"endTime":1631.212,"body":"Are you, has any new renewable electricity"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1624.7920000000001,"endTime":1631.212,"body":"come online to support that production?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1631.842,"endTime":1637.8120000000001,"body":"The second factor is, Regionality,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1631.842,"endTime":1637.8120000000001,"body":"so the idea that this new renewable"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1637.8120000000001,"endTime":1641.8020000000001,"body":"energy is also actually in your"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1637.8120000000001,"endTime":1641.8020000000001,"body":"region, it can physically be delivered"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1641.8020000000001,"endTime":1643.842,"body":"to your plants in, in theory."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1644.319,"endTime":1646.569,"body":"And then the third one is time matching."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1646.569,"endTime":1651.759,"body":"So this is the idea that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1646.569,"endTime":1651.759,"body":"when the sun goes down, is your"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1651.759,"endTime":1655.449,"body":"plant just gonna be pulling from a"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1651.759,"endTime":1655.449,"body":"natural gas plant or a coal plant."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1656.232,"endTime":1660.9370000000001,"body":"And so there's an idea that you wanna sort"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1656.232,"endTime":1660.9370000000001,"body":"of match your production with the times of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1660.9370000000001,"endTime":1666.192,"body":"day, where  there is solar or wind or some"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1660.9370000000001,"endTime":1666.192,"body":"other clean energy source being produced."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1666.765,"endTime":1670.755,"body":"So the EU rules that were just put"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1666.765,"endTime":1670.755,"body":"out, which, which I don't believe"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1670.76,"endTime":1674.1190000000001,"body":"are final yet,  are pretty strict"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1670.76,"endTime":1674.1190000000001,"body":"on, on all three of these things."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1674.3020000000001,"endTime":1679.9270000000001,"body":"In terms of additionality, they put sort"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1674.3020000000001,"endTime":1679.9270000000001,"body":"of time limits on whatever, uh, renewable"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1679.9270000000001,"endTime":1684.217,"body":"energy plant you're contracting with has"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1679.9270000000001,"endTime":1684.217,"body":"to have been built in the past 36 months."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1684.904,"endTime":1690.564,"body":"And in terms of, regionality and"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1684.904,"endTime":1690.564,"body":"additionality, that plant that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1690.569,"endTime":1693.2340000000002,"body":"was built in the past 36 months"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1690.569,"endTime":1693.2340000000002,"body":"has to be in your, your region."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1693.624,"endTime":1698.732,"body":"And then in terms of time matching, this"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1693.624,"endTime":1698.732,"body":"is a sort of interesting one, the EU"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1698.732,"endTime":1703.865,"body":"has basically said that matching your"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1698.732,"endTime":1703.865,"body":"production on an hourly basis is too"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1703.8700000000001,"endTime":1709.025,"body":"hard right now that we don't have really"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1703.8700000000001,"endTime":1709.025,"body":"the technology or the data to do that."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1709.535,"endTime":1712.415,"body":"And so what they've, they sort of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1709.535,"endTime":1712.415,"body":"compromised and said between now"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1712.42,"endTime":1717.2150000000001,"body":"and 2030 we'll ask that you match"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1712.42,"endTime":1717.2150000000001,"body":"your production on a monthly basis."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1717.2150000000001,"endTime":1721.535,"body":"So every month you have to sort"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1717.2150000000001,"endTime":1721.535,"body":"of account for, you know, what,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1721.565,"endTime":1726.395,"body":"when, how many hours your plant was"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1721.565,"endTime":1726.395,"body":"operating, and how many hours of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1726.395,"endTime":1730.755,"body":"renewable energy you, you purchased"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1726.395,"endTime":1730.755,"body":"and, and do those kind of align up."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1731.255,"endTime":1736.325,"body":"By 2030, hopefully we've had"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1731.255,"endTime":1736.325,"body":"more innovation to do a more"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1736.325,"endTime":1737.825,"body":"granular matching system."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1737.825,"endTime":1740.565,"body":"And, in theory the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1737.825,"endTime":1740.565,"body":"results will change then."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1741.165,"endTime":1744.385,"body":"I think this is a little bit"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1741.165,"endTime":1744.385,"body":"controversial in, in the US."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1744.555,"endTime":1748.56,"body":"There, I've spoken with researchers"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1744.555,"endTime":1748.56,"body":"who are pushing really hard for the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1748.6200000000001,"endTime":1752.3400000000001,"body":"hourly matching system that, you"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1748.6200000000001,"endTime":1752.3400000000001,"body":"know, the monthly matching system"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1752.3400000000001,"endTime":1754.89,"body":"doesn't quite solve the problem."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1755.01,"endTime":1762.24,"body":"Um, and I don't think I said this earlier,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1755.01,"endTime":1762.24,"body":"but it's pretty significant problem."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1762.337,"endTime":1767.887,"body":"if you produce hydrogen from the grid,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1762.337,"endTime":1767.887,"body":"unless the grid is really, really clean,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1767.887,"endTime":1773.932,"body":"like more than 90% clean, That process"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1767.887,"endTime":1773.932,"body":"will be dirtier than if you just made it"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1773.932,"endTime":1775.852,"body":"the old fashioned way from natural gas."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1776.0620000000001,"endTime":1781.892,"body":"It'll use a lot more energy and ultimately"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1776.0620000000001,"endTime":1781.892,"body":"cause more, fossil fuel power plants"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1781.892,"endTime":1783.482,"body":"to turn on and more and more emissions."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1783.487,"endTime":1788.789,"body":"So, the electricity has to be really,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1783.487,"endTime":1788.789,"body":"really clean in order for this green"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1788.789,"endTime":1791.159,"body":"hydrogen to be kind of worth making."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1792.019,"endTime":1794.1190000000001,"body":"So, yeah, it, it's interesting."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1794.1190000000001,"endTime":1797.719,"body":"We'll see, you know, the US has"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1794.1190000000001,"endTime":1797.719,"body":"yet to release its version of"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1797.719,"endTime":1800.479,"body":"these rules that that should"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1797.719,"endTime":1800.479,"body":"come in the next several months."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1800.509,"endTime":1803.959,"body":"So it's, it's an evolving story."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1804.634,"endTime":1804.9940000000001,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1804.9940000000001,"endTime":1807.814,"body":"And are there any smoke signals"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1804.9940000000001,"endTime":1807.814,"body":"coming outta the US yet?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1807.814,"endTime":1809.604,"body":"Do we have any indication"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1807.814,"endTime":1809.604,"body":"which way it's going to go?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1810.904,"endTime":1813.9940000000001,"body":"You know, we don't"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1810.904,"endTime":1813.9940000000001,"body":"really, um, we have, there was a"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1814.0240000000001,"endTime":1819.604,"body":"public comment period and thousands"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1814.0240000000001,"endTime":1819.604,"body":"of companies and, and, um, experts"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1819.604,"endTime":1823.354,"body":"weighed in, maybe not thousands,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1819.604,"endTime":1823.354,"body":"maybe, maybe hundreds is more accurate."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1823.654,"endTime":1828.7240000000002,"body":"But, there's a pretty big divide between"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1823.654,"endTime":1828.7240000000002,"body":"a lot of companies who are pushing for"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1828.784,"endTime":1834.409,"body":"laxer rules, who are arguing that this"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1828.784,"endTime":1834.409,"body":"time matching and this additionality"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1834.409,"endTime":1836.419,"body":"is just gonna be too burdensome."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1836.419,"endTime":1840.589,"body":"It's gonna make the hydrogen more"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1836.419,"endTime":1840.589,"body":"expensive and ultimately not worth it,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1840.589,"endTime":1844.3690000000001,"body":"not able to compete with the fossil"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1840.589,"endTime":1844.3690000000001,"body":"fueled hydrogen that exists today."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1844.909,"endTime":1848.097,"body":"And other  experts weighing"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1844.909,"endTime":1848.097,"body":"in, saying that's not true."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1848.107,"endTime":1851.997,"body":"And, and if we don't get it right"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1848.107,"endTime":1851.997,"body":"now, then, we're building this"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1851.997,"endTime":1856.44,"body":"new industry on a lie and, it's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1851.997,"endTime":1856.44,"body":"not actually solving the problem."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1856.44,"endTime":1860.91,"body":"So, yeah, I, I'm not really sure"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1856.44,"endTime":1860.91,"body":"which way things are gonna go."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1861.26,"endTime":1861.94,"body":"Okay, Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1862.72,"endTime":1866.74,"body":"We're coming towards the end of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1862.72,"endTime":1866.74,"body":"podcast now, Emily, is there any question"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1866.74,"endTime":1871.27,"body":"that I haven't asked that you wish"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1866.74,"endTime":1871.27,"body":"I had or any aspect of this that we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1871.275,"endTime":1874.1000000000001,"body":"haven't touched on that you think it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1871.275,"endTime":1874.1000000000001,"body":"important for people to think about?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1875.262,"endTime":1878.7720000000002,"body":"Yeah, I think there,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1875.262,"endTime":1878.7720000000002,"body":"there is actually one area that, that we"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1878.7720000000002,"endTime":1884.712,"body":"haven't touched on too much and that's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1878.7720000000002,"endTime":1884.712,"body":"the sort of uses for hydrogen that"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1885.192,"endTime":1890.182,"body":"don't seem to make as much sense from"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1885.192,"endTime":1890.182,"body":"an energy standpoint or, or a financial"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1890.182,"endTime":1894.294,"body":"standpoint but, are still on the table."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1894.704,"endTime":1900.517,"body":"I would say that the gas industry is"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1894.704,"endTime":1900.517,"body":"really sort of clinging to hydrogen as a"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1900.517,"endTime":1907.425,"body":"lifeline to, stay relevant in the future"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1900.517,"endTime":1907.425,"body":"and, today, the gas industry, their"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1907.425,"endTime":1911.839,"body":"main business is delivering natural gas"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1907.425,"endTime":1911.839,"body":"to your home, to heat your home and,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1911.844,"endTime":1917.1190000000001,"body":"and fuel your stove and your clothing"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1911.844,"endTime":1917.1190000000001,"body":"dryer and all kinds of appliances."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1917.179,"endTime":1923.055,"body":"And, they're really pushing this idea"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1917.179,"endTime":1923.055,"body":"that eventually that that fuel that they"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1923.055,"endTime":1924.7050000000002,"body":"deliver to your home could be hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1924.855,"endTime":1930.615,"body":"And, while technologically there's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1924.855,"endTime":1930.615,"body":"not, any issue with that, that that is"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1930.6200000000001,"endTime":1937.675,"body":"technologically feasible,  it's very hard"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1930.6200000000001,"endTime":1937.675,"body":"to, to see from an economic standpoint."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1937.759,"endTime":1942.8890000000001,"body":"The pipelines that deliver natural gas to"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1937.759,"endTime":1942.8890000000001,"body":"our homes are not fit to deliver hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1942.8890000000001,"endTime":1946.519,"body":"They would have to be replaced, your"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1942.8890000000001,"endTime":1946.519,"body":"appliances would have to be replaced."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1947.01,"endTime":1952.77,"body":"A lot of them talk about blending"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1947.01,"endTime":1952.77,"body":"hydrogen into the pipelines at a sort"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1952.77,"endTime":1958.0700000000002,"body":"of smaller percentage today to lower the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1952.77,"endTime":1958.0700000000002,"body":"emissions of, the fuel they delivered"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1958.0700000000002,"endTime":1961.55,"body":"to your house today without actually"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1958.0700000000002,"endTime":1961.55,"body":"having to change everything out."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1961.97,"endTime":1965.6000000000001,"body":"And while there's been a lot of sort"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1961.97,"endTime":1965.6000000000001,"body":"of promising pilot projects that have"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1965.6000000000001,"endTime":1970.52,"body":"tested the safety of that, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1965.6000000000001,"endTime":1970.52,"body":"actually reduce the emissions that much."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1970.52,"endTime":1975.815,"body":"It's, you know, you put 5% or"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1970.52,"endTime":1975.815,"body":"10% hydrogen into the pipeline,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1975.815,"endTime":1979.325,"body":"and you reduce emissions by, you"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1975.815,"endTime":1979.325,"body":"know, a pretty minuscule amount."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1979.685,"endTime":1984.082,"body":"So, I think that's just something for,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1979.685,"endTime":1984.082,"body":"listeners to kind of keep an eye on"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1984.082,"endTime":1989.0720000000001,"body":"because, politically natural gas companies"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1984.082,"endTime":1989.0720000000001,"body":"have a lot of power and, and this is"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1989.0720000000001,"endTime":1993.9270000000001,"body":"really what they're, they're pushing"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1989.0720000000001,"endTime":1993.9270000000001,"body":"politicians to consider and, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":1993.9270000000001,"endTime":1996.837,"body":"just not clear how, how it makes sense"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1998.317,"endTime":1999.162,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1999.162,"endTime":2000.122,"body":"No, totally, totally."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2000.842,"endTime":2001.2920000000001,"body":"Super."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2001.2920000000001,"endTime":2002.342,"body":"Emily, that's been great."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2002.347,"endTime":2006.992,"body":"If people would like to know more about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2002.347,"endTime":2006.992,"body":"yourself or green hydrogen, or any of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2006.992,"endTime":2010.142,"body":"topics we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2006.992,"endTime":2010.142,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2011.242,"endTime":2014.842,"body":"Yeah, well, they"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2011.242,"endTime":2014.842,"body":"can check out grist.org, that's G R"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2014.842,"endTime":2019.5520000000001,"body":"I S t where you'll find, you know,"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2014.842,"endTime":2019.5520000000001,"body":"my reporting as well as my colleagues"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2019.585,"endTime":2021.925,"body":"on kind of all things climate change."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2022.405,"endTime":2024.2050000000002,"body":"And you can follow me on Twitter."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2024.2050000000002,"endTime":2026.4550000000002,"body":"I'm at Emily Pont on Twitter."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2027.2350000000001,"endTime":2027.4750000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2027.535,"endTime":2030.025,"body":"And tho those are the"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2027.535,"endTime":2030.025,"body":"best places to learn more."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2030.265,"endTime":2030.7450000000001,"body":"Super."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2030.7450000000001,"endTime":2032.2150000000001,"body":"I'll drop those links in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2030.7450000000001,"endTime":2032.2150000000001,"body":"the show notes as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2032.2150000000001,"endTime":2033.7450000000001,"body":"Emily, that's been fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2033.805,"endTime":2035.4850000000001,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2033.805,"endTime":2035.4850000000001,"body":"on the podcast today."},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2036.535,"endTime":2037.795,"body":"Thank"},{"speaker":"Emily Pontecorvo","startTime":2036.535,"endTime":2037.795,"body":"you so much for having me."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2039.752,"endTime":2041.642,"body":"Okay, we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2039.752,"endTime":2041.642,"body":"come to the end of the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2042.332,"endTime":2043.472,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2044.3120000000001,"endTime":2047.222,"body":"If you'd like to know more about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2044.3120000000001,"endTime":2047.222,"body":"the Climate Confident podcast,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2047.402,"endTime":2053.132,"body":"feel free to drop me an email"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2047.402,"endTime":2053.132,"body":"to Tom raftery@outlook.com."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2053.7019999999998,"endTime":2056.132,"body":"Or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2056.696,"endTime":2060.416,"body":"If you like the show, please, don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2056.696,"endTime":2060.416,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2060.416,"endTime":2064.946,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2060.416,"endTime":2064.946,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2065.576,"endTime":2068.516,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2065.576,"endTime":2068.516,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2068.726,"endTime":2071.426,"body":"It really does help new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2068.726,"endTime":2071.426,"body":"people to find the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2072.326,"endTime":2074.366,"body":"Thanks, catch you all next time."}]}