{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":3.407,"endTime":6.467,"body":"And what's interesting about"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":3.407,"endTime":6.467,"body":"that decision to decarbonize, I think,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":6.507,"endTime":9.482,"body":"Tom, It's strictly based on profit."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":9.722,"endTime":11.652,"body":"There is no objective of ESG."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":11.802,"endTime":13.292,"body":"There's no objective of regulatory."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":13.292,"endTime":14.782,"body":"There's no objective of green."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":15.312,"endTime":19.662,"body":"It's simply based on, on that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":15.312,"endTime":19.662,"body":"profit maximization objective."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":19.662,"endTime":25.072,"body":"And since Europe launched the program"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":19.662,"endTime":25.072,"body":"in 2005, the European Carbon Market,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":25.352,"endTime":31.272,"body":"emissions in Europe have come down one"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":25.352,"endTime":31.272,"body":"billion tons per year, one gigaton."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":32.37,"endTime":34.47,"body":"Good morning, good"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":32.37,"endTime":34.47,"body":"afternoon, or good evening,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.47,"endTime":36.0,"body":"wherever you are in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":36.3,"endTime":38.43,"body":"This is the Climate Confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.67,"endTime":42.3,"body":"The number one podcast, showcasing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.67,"endTime":42.3,"body":"best practices in climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.3,"endTime":43.98,"body":"emission, reductions and removals."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":44.37,"endTime":46.26,"body":"And I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":46.468,"endTime":50.248,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":46.468,"endTime":50.248,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":50.368,"endTime":52.768,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":53.567,"endTime":57.817,"body":"Hi everyone, welcome to episode 137"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":53.567,"endTime":57.817,"body":"of the Climate Confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":58.217,"endTime":61.687,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery, and before"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":58.217,"endTime":61.687,"body":"we kick off today's show, I want"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":61.687,"endTime":65.977,"body":"to take a moment to thank our"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":61.687,"endTime":65.977,"body":"amazing supporters of this podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":66.357,"endTime":71.337,"body":"Your support has been instrumental in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":66.357,"endTime":71.337,"body":"keeping the podcast going, and I am really"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":71.337,"endTime":73.307,"body":"grateful for each and every one of you."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":74.327,"endTime":77.657,"body":"If you're not already a supporter, I'd"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":74.327,"endTime":77.657,"body":"like to encourage you to consider joining"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":77.657,"endTime":80.697,"body":"our community of like minded individuals"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":77.657,"endTime":80.697,"body":"who are passionate about climate."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":81.712,"endTime":85.512,"body":"Supporting the podcast is easy and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":81.712,"endTime":85.512,"body":"affordable, with options starting as low"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":85.512,"endTime":87.632,"body":"as just three euros or dollars per month."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":88.052,"endTime":90.362,"body":"That's less than the cost of a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":88.052,"endTime":90.362,"body":"cup of coffee, and your support"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":90.362,"endTime":93.862,"body":"will make a huge difference in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":90.362,"endTime":93.862,"body":"keeping this show going strong."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":94.662,"endTime":98.802,"body":"To become a supporter, simply click on"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":94.662,"endTime":98.802,"body":"the support link in the show notes of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":98.802,"endTime":102.522,"body":"this or any episode, or visit tinyurl."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":102.562,"endTime":104.922,"body":"com slash climatepod."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":105.747,"endTime":110.497,"body":"Now, without further ado, with me on the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":105.747,"endTime":110.497,"body":"show today, I have my special guest, Mike."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":110.817,"endTime":112.557,"body":"Mike, welcome to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":112.567,"endTime":114.047,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":114.642,"endTime":115.002,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":115.082,"endTime":116.532,"body":"My name is Mike Azlen."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":116.552,"endTime":121.062,"body":"I'm the founder and CEO of Carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":116.552,"endTime":121.062,"body":"Cap Management, an environmental"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":121.062,"endTime":122.092,"body":"asset management business."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":122.092,"endTime":123.562,"body":"I'm really pleased to be here today, Tom."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":124.542,"endTime":125.002,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":125.952,"endTime":128.752,"body":"Tell me a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":125.952,"endTime":128.752,"body":"Carbon Cap Management."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":128.782,"endTime":129.652,"body":"Mike, what is that?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":130.659,"endTime":134.909,"body":"Sure, Carbon Cap Management"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":130.659,"endTime":134.909,"body":"is an environmental asset management firm"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":134.959,"endTime":139.779,"body":"whose objective is to raise awareness"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":134.959,"endTime":139.779,"body":"about climate change and to provide"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":139.779,"endTime":144.089,"body":"solutions that are directly related"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":139.779,"endTime":144.089,"body":"to capping and reducing emissions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":144.479,"endTime":146.599,"body":"Our first fund is a very innovative fund."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":146.599,"endTime":152.659,"body":"It's called the World Carbon Fund, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":146.599,"endTime":152.659,"body":"the fund invests into multiple liquid"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":152.659,"endTime":155.264,"body":"and regulated compliance carbon markets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":155.284,"endTime":157.934,"body":"Those are the markets that are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":155.284,"endTime":157.934,"body":"run by governments around the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":157.934,"endTime":159.944,"body":"world to cap and lower emissions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":160.254,"endTime":164.694,"body":"And the objective of the fund is to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":160.254,"endTime":164.694,"body":"provide absolute returns, but also to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":164.694,"endTime":167.174,"body":"have a direct impact on climate change."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":167.434,"endTime":172.339,"body":"And we do that in a number of ways, but"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":167.434,"endTime":172.339,"body":"the hardest impact is that 20% of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":172.339,"endTime":177.449,"body":"performance fees for the fund are used"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":172.339,"endTime":177.449,"body":"to purchase carbon allowance permits in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":177.449,"endTime":182.459,"body":"the regulated market and to cancel those,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":177.449,"endTime":182.459,"body":"thereby aligning our interests with"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":182.459,"endTime":187.929,"body":"our investors and with a direct impact"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":182.459,"endTime":187.929,"body":"on climate and the fund holds article"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":187.989,"endTime":193.249,"body":"nine status, which is the highest form"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":187.989,"endTime":193.249,"body":"of impact under the European taxonomy."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":194.214,"endTime":198.554,"body":"Okay, can you give us"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":194.214,"endTime":198.554,"body":"a little bit of a 101 on that for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":198.564,"endTime":202.684,"body":"people who might not be familiar"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":198.564,"endTime":202.684,"body":"with the carbon capture markets?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":203.524,"endTime":206.974,"body":"Yeah, so I think the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":203.524,"endTime":206.974,"body":"first thing is to differentiate"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":207.014,"endTime":210.364,"body":"between, there are, there are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":207.014,"endTime":210.364,"body":"effectively three carbon markets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":210.584,"endTime":215.184,"body":"The third market, which I won't go into"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":210.584,"endTime":215.184,"body":"today because it, it's quite complex,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":215.314,"endTime":219.654,"body":"is the market that exists under Article"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":215.314,"endTime":219.654,"body":"6 of the United Nations Framework"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":219.654,"endTime":221.184,"body":"Convention and the Paris Agreement."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":221.579,"endTime":222.679,"body":"So we won't talk about that."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":222.689,"endTime":226.219,"body":"That market currently is in,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":222.689,"endTime":226.219,"body":"in sort of suspended animation"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":226.219,"endTime":229.772,"body":"until they work out all of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":226.219,"endTime":229.772,"body":"points in the Article 6 rule book."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":230.072,"endTime":234.362,"body":"For most people, there are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":230.072,"endTime":234.362,"body":"really two carbon markets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":234.462,"endTime":237.662,"body":"Probably the most familiar"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":234.462,"endTime":237.662,"body":"market is the voluntary market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":237.942,"endTime":241.849,"body":"This is where you might see a project"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":237.942,"endTime":241.849,"body":"you can click on to offsite, offset"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":241.849,"endTime":243.389,"body":"the emissions from your flight."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":243.739,"endTime":248.409,"body":"Normally these are project based"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":243.739,"endTime":248.409,"body":"carbon credits and offsets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":248.459,"endTime":253.374,"body":"So, the most notable would"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":248.459,"endTime":253.374,"body":"be planting trees or avoided"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":253.664,"endTime":256.514,"body":"deforestation, projects like that."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":256.514,"endTime":260.854,"body":"And so someone independently calculates"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":256.514,"endTime":260.854,"body":"how much carbon is sequestered as the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":260.854,"endTime":265.944,"body":"trees grow then a third party company will"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":260.854,"endTime":265.944,"body":"verify that and they issue carbon credits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":266.304,"endTime":271.554,"body":"That market, I always like to give five"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":266.304,"endTime":271.554,"body":"key characteristics Tom, of the market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":271.944,"endTime":275.234,"body":"Number one, it is unregulated,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":271.944,"endTime":275.234,"body":"which is an issue."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":275.394,"endTime":279.054,"body":"Number two, it's a private"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":275.394,"endTime":279.054,"body":"equity asset, so it's illiquid."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":279.384,"endTime":282.394,"body":"Number three, it's quite small"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":279.384,"endTime":282.394,"body":"in size, and I'll, I'll come"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":282.404,"endTime":283.754,"body":"back to that in a moment."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":284.264,"endTime":289.654,"body":"Number four, it's quite opaque in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":284.264,"endTime":289.654,"body":"terms of the calculation methodology."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":289.864,"endTime":295.654,"body":"How do they actually calculate how the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":289.864,"endTime":295.654,"body":"carbon was sequestered and for how long?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":295.894,"endTime":298.074,"body":"Very important, that durability concept."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":298.434,"endTime":302.004,"body":"And then number five, in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":298.434,"endTime":302.004,"body":"voluntary market, of course."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":302.274,"endTime":307.804,"body":"There is effectively an unlimited supply"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":302.274,"endTime":307.804,"body":"of these carbon credits and offset."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":307.804,"endTime":310.894,"body":"And that's where the term credit"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":307.804,"endTime":310.894,"body":"and offset is appropriate."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":311.304,"endTime":315.964,"body":"If we move to the second market,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":311.304,"endTime":315.964,"body":"that's the regulated carbon market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":316.194,"endTime":318.234,"body":"These are the markets that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":316.194,"endTime":318.234,"body":"are run by governments."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":318.234,"endTime":321.914,"body":"And I'll go through those same five"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":318.234,"endTime":321.914,"body":"bullets because I do think it's helpful."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":322.154,"endTime":323.294,"body":"So number one."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":323.724,"endTime":326.584,"body":"It is regulated, run by the government."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":326.644,"endTime":329.424,"body":"It's very large and liquid."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":329.574,"endTime":334.434,"body":"So the market in the regulated"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":329.574,"endTime":334.434,"body":"world is about 1, 000 times"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":334.444,"endTime":337.454,"body":"larger than the voluntary market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":337.454,"endTime":339.464,"body":"So it's not 10 times or 100 times."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":339.744,"endTime":341.794,"body":"It's orders of magnitude bigger."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":342.117,"endTime":343.067,"body":"It's very liquid."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":343.067,"endTime":346.847,"body":"So these markets trade on a daily"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":343.067,"endTime":346.847,"body":"basis, most of it on exchanges."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":347.107,"endTime":349.447,"body":"So trading about 4 billion U."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":349.447,"endTime":349.607,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":349.607,"endTime":351.127,"body":"dollars per day."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":351.127,"endTime":352.637,"body":"So it's a very liquid market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":352.967,"endTime":356.147,"body":"Number four, it's very transparent"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":352.967,"endTime":356.147,"body":"because it's run by governments."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":356.157,"endTime":360.167,"body":"All of the rules are posted on"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":356.157,"endTime":360.167,"body":"government websites, so it's easy"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":360.167,"endTime":362.307,"body":"to read the rules and understand."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":362.787,"endTime":365.137,"body":"But number five is the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":362.787,"endTime":365.137,"body":"most important, Tom."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":365.577,"endTime":370.307,"body":"In the regulated market, there is"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":365.577,"endTime":370.307,"body":"a cap on the number of permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":370.567,"endTime":373.877,"body":"And that number of permits, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":370.567,"endTime":373.877,"body":"that's the right term, allowance"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":373.907,"endTime":379.597,"body":"permits, that cap is lowered, creating"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":373.907,"endTime":379.597,"body":"smaller numbers of permits each year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":379.597,"endTime":383.717,"body":"So in one market there is effectively"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":379.597,"endTime":383.717,"body":"this unlimited supply, but in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":383.717,"endTime":388.357,"body":"compliance markets there is a capped"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":383.717,"endTime":388.357,"body":"and declining supply of permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":388.547,"endTime":392.337,"body":"And, and it's proven to be really"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":388.547,"endTime":392.337,"body":"probably the most successful"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":392.347,"endTime":396.157,"body":"mechanism at capping and lowering"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":392.347,"endTime":396.157,"body":"emissions as a, as a policy tool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":397.497,"endTime":401.917,"body":"And the idea behind lowering"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":397.497,"endTime":401.917,"body":"them year on year means that you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":401.987,"endTime":411.767,"body":"taking carbon out of the system de facto"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":401.987,"endTime":411.767,"body":"and also with laws of supply and demand,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":411.767,"endTime":416.207,"body":"if you're reducing the supply, then"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":411.767,"endTime":416.207,"body":"obviously the price is going up over time."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":416.517,"endTime":417.097,"body":"Is that the idea?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":417.922,"endTime":422.412,"body":"Well, the idea is for a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":417.922,"endTime":422.412,"body":"cap and trade market, for a regulated"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":422.412,"endTime":424.472,"body":"market it has two objectives."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":424.582,"endTime":428.592,"body":"The first objective is to cap emissions"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":424.582,"endTime":428.592,"body":"and lower them, which is wonderful."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":428.772,"endTime":434.932,"body":"But the second, Tom, is to achieve that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":428.772,"endTime":434.932,"body":"reduction at the lowest cost to society."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":435.232,"endTime":439.802,"body":"That second objective, achieving"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":435.232,"endTime":439.802,"body":"emissions reductions at the lowest cost,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":440.012,"endTime":444.962,"body":"is a very important, and that's why the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":440.012,"endTime":444.962,"body":"mechanism harnesses the free market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":444.962,"endTime":449.652,"body":"So, so, the way it works is any"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":444.962,"endTime":449.652,"body":"company within Europe, or now"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":449.652,"endTime":453.132,"body":"we have a carbon market in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":449.652,"endTime":453.132,"body":"UK, or the state of California."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":453.567,"endTime":457.867,"body":"Any entity that emits above a threshold,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":453.567,"endTime":457.867,"body":"and usually it's quite a high threshold"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":457.947,"endTime":461.527,"body":"because they want the big emitters, they"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":457.947,"endTime":461.527,"body":"want to capture most of the emissions"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":461.527,"endTime":465.507,"body":"with the smallest amount of entities,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":461.527,"endTime":465.507,"body":"so those companies are notified by the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":465.507,"endTime":469.487,"body":"government and it's mandatory inclusion,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":465.507,"endTime":469.487,"body":"they don't have a choice, it means"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":469.497,"endTime":474.187,"body":"they're audited every year and they must"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":469.497,"endTime":474.187,"body":"give the government permits, allowance"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":474.197,"endTime":476.497,"body":"permits based on the amount of emissions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":476.497,"endTime":480.977,"body":"So last year, you emitted 1 million"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":476.497,"endTime":480.977,"body":"tons, by April of this year you must give"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":480.977,"endTime":482.907,"body":"the government those 1 million permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":483.197,"endTime":486.197,"body":"Now, the source of the permits,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":483.197,"endTime":486.197,"body":"they come from the government."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":486.717,"endTime":489.997,"body":"Most of the source is"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":486.717,"endTime":489.997,"body":"they're sold at auctions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":490.177,"endTime":493.297,"body":"So the government in California,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":490.177,"endTime":493.297,"body":"there's four auctions per year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":493.507,"endTime":497.157,"body":"In the European market, there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":493.507,"endTime":497.157,"body":"an auction every single day, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":497.157,"endTime":498.767,"body":"we participate in that auction."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":498.947,"endTime":502.457,"body":"So companies estimate their emissions,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":498.947,"endTime":502.457,"body":"and then they buy the permits because"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":502.457,"endTime":504.367,"body":"they know they have a compliance deadline."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":504.807,"endTime":508.757,"body":"So, the CEO, Tom, of each of those"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":504.807,"endTime":508.757,"body":"companies, and in Europe there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":508.927,"endTime":512.617,"body":"15,000 approximately large emitters."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":512.817,"endTime":516.527,"body":"These are principally power"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":512.817,"endTime":516.527,"body":"companies burning coal and gas to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":516.527,"endTime":521.547,"body":"make electricity, steel, cement,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":516.527,"endTime":521.547,"body":"chemicals, glass, and refineries."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":521.547,"endTime":522.897,"body":"These are the big emitters."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":523.207,"endTime":527.667,"body":"Those CEOs and the board of directors"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":523.207,"endTime":527.667,"body":"in those companies, what they are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":527.667,"endTime":529.997,"body":"looking at every day is two prices."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":530.432,"endTime":533.972,"body":"They look at the permit price, which"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":530.432,"endTime":533.972,"body":"is trading and very liquid currently"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":533.972,"endTime":539.632,"body":"about 85 euros per ton and, and they"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":533.972,"endTime":539.632,"body":"also look at their internal cost."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":539.882,"endTime":544.042,"body":"When I say their internal cost, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":539.882,"endTime":544.042,"body":"mean, their internal cost of abatement."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":544.262,"endTime":548.032,"body":"In other words the CEO asks the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":544.262,"endTime":548.032,"body":"head of engineering in the company."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":548.417,"endTime":550.887,"body":"At what price can we decarbonize?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":551.057,"endTime":554.897,"body":"And of course, we can decarbonize anything"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":551.057,"endTime":554.897,"body":"if we're willing to pay any price."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":555.197,"endTime":559.267,"body":"So if you think about the entire"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":555.197,"endTime":559.267,"body":"ecosystem of thousands of companies, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":559.267,"endTime":565.067,"body":"if we were to line them up, Tom, in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":559.267,"endTime":565.067,"body":"merit order, for some companies, their"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":565.067,"endTime":568.007,"body":"abatement cost might be 20 euros a ton."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":568.387,"endTime":571.207,"body":"Other companies at the other"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":568.387,"endTime":571.207,"body":"end might be 200 euros."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":571.467,"endTime":577.062,"body":"So when the CEO says, should I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":571.467,"endTime":577.062,"body":"buy permits at 85, Or should I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":577.062,"endTime":582.422,"body":"actually cut my emissions if the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":577.062,"endTime":582.422,"body":"internal cost is 25 or 30 or 50?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":582.812,"endTime":584.492,"body":"That's a very easy decision."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":584.772,"endTime":587.512,"body":"The CEO says, let's cut"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":584.772,"endTime":587.512,"body":"the internal emissions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":587.522,"endTime":591.832,"body":"Let's invest in that new low carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":587.522,"endTime":591.832,"body":"machinery, amortize the cost, and it works"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":591.832,"endTime":595.242,"body":"out at a 30 or 40 or 50 euro per ton cost."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":595.682,"endTime":598.742,"body":"And what's interesting about that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":595.682,"endTime":598.742,"body":"decision to decarbonize, I think,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":598.782,"endTime":601.757,"body":"Tom, It's strictly based on profit."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":601.997,"endTime":603.927,"body":"There is no objective of ESG."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":604.077,"endTime":605.567,"body":"There's no objective of regulatory."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":605.567,"endTime":607.057,"body":"There's no objective of green."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":607.587,"endTime":611.937,"body":"It's simply based on, on that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":607.587,"endTime":611.937,"body":"profit maximization objective."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":611.937,"endTime":617.347,"body":"And since Europe launched the program"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":611.937,"endTime":617.347,"body":"in 2005, the European carbon market,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":617.627,"endTime":623.547,"body":"emissions in Europe have come down one"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":617.627,"endTime":623.547,"body":"billion tons per year, one gigaton."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":623.957,"endTime":628.447,"body":"Now the carbon market has certainly not"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":623.957,"endTime":628.447,"body":"been the only reason for that reduction."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":628.457,"endTime":633.097,"body":"Regulatory policy, energy"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":628.457,"endTime":633.097,"body":"efficiency, all kinds of factors."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":633.537,"endTime":633.927,"body":"But..."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":634.282,"endTime":639.122,"body":"most academics and empiricists"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":634.282,"endTime":639.122,"body":"agree the bulk of that reduction"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":639.192,"endTime":643.272,"body":"has been because Europe put a price"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":639.192,"endTime":643.272,"body":"on emissions, and it really does"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":643.272,"endTime":645.842,"body":"focus the mind of those executives."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":646.322,"endTime":650.362,"body":"Sure, and that 85"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":646.322,"endTime":650.362,"body":"euros per ton that it's trading at"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":650.362,"endTime":654.862,"body":"roughly today, that's significantly"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":650.362,"endTime":654.862,"body":"higher than it was 10 years ago."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":655.262,"endTime":660.442,"body":"And so that price has only recently"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":655.262,"endTime":660.442,"body":"started to go up, significantly in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":660.442,"endTime":662.162,"body":"last three, four years, I want to think."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":662.532,"endTime":664.892,"body":"What are the factors behind"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":662.532,"endTime":664.892,"body":"the increasing price?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":665.862,"endTime":670.182,"body":"So, what you've, what you've"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":665.862,"endTime":670.182,"body":"seen in compliance regulated carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":670.182,"endTime":676.142,"body":"markets since Europe launched in 2005, is"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":670.182,"endTime":676.142,"body":"we've had multiple phases of development."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":676.372,"endTime":680.512,"body":"So, typically they will put in place"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":676.372,"endTime":680.512,"body":"a five year or sometimes even a ten"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":680.512,"endTime":684.522,"body":"year phase, where they crystallize"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":680.512,"endTime":684.522,"body":"the rules during that phase."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":684.522,"endTime":686.162,"body":"And what are some of those rules?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":686.292,"endTime":690.512,"body":"So one of the most important rules"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":686.292,"endTime":690.512,"body":"is that linear reduction factor."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":690.512,"endTime":693.802,"body":"So if we think about an annual"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":690.512,"endTime":693.802,"body":"cycle of compliance in Europe."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":694.227,"endTime":697.747,"body":"Today, the, the cap, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":694.227,"endTime":697.747,"body":"annual cap is about 1."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":697.757,"endTime":699.527,"body":"4 billion permits, 1."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":699.527,"endTime":701.497,"body":"4 billion tons of emissions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":701.777,"endTime":705.027,"body":"So the government will issue that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":701.777,"endTime":705.027,"body":"many permits into the market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":705.327,"endTime":708.027,"body":"At the end of the year, it"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":705.327,"endTime":708.027,"body":"will audit those companies."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":708.327,"endTime":710.447,"body":"Of course, the companies"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":708.327,"endTime":710.447,"body":"will buy at the auction."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":710.467,"endTime":712.137,"body":"They can buy in the secondary market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":712.477,"endTime":717.447,"body":"And if we assume that the total emissions"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":712.477,"endTime":717.447,"body":"was also 1.4 billion across those"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":717.447,"endTime":720.957,"body":"thousands of companies, they will give"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":717.447,"endTime":720.957,"body":"the permits back to the government."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":721.177,"endTime":722.327,"body":"The government says, great."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":722.582,"endTime":723.412,"body":"You complied."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":723.432,"endTime":727.542,"body":"And just to be clear, if you don't,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":723.432,"endTime":727.542,"body":"the penalties are very severe."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":727.602,"endTime":728.233,"body":"So we have 99."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":728.233,"endTime":731.212,"body":"9 percent compliance in these markets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":731.212,"endTime":732.602,"body":"And these are very big corporates."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":733.032,"endTime":736.862,"body":"When the government receives the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":733.032,"endTime":736.862,"body":"permits back, they destroy the permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":736.862,"endTime":737.742,"body":"They tear them up."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":738.112,"endTime":739.852,"body":"That year has now completed."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":740.052,"endTime":746.622,"body":"The next year 1.3 billion, then"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":740.052,"endTime":746.622,"body":"1.2, you tear those up, then 1.1."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":746.802,"endTime":751.372,"body":"So you're right, Tom, we create this"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":746.802,"endTime":751.372,"body":"scarcity, and it ensures that our first"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":751.372,"endTime":756.512,"body":"objective, environmental integrity of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":751.372,"endTime":756.512,"body":"lowering emissions, has been achieved."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":756.882,"endTime":759.732,"body":"So, so every year we have"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":756.882,"endTime":759.732,"body":"this annual compliance cycle"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":759.732,"endTime":760.892,"body":"and we're creating scarcity."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":761.082,"endTime":764.592,"body":"That linear reduction factor, that's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":761.082,"endTime":764.592,"body":"what it's called, that's one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":764.592,"endTime":770.022,"body":"key settings in a carbon market that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":764.592,"endTime":770.022,"body":"the government updates infrequently."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":770.042,"endTime":774.652,"body":"So in Europe, we have just passed the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":770.042,"endTime":774.652,"body":"new Fit for 55 legislation, and that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":774.652,"endTime":780.582,"body":"has mandated a 55 percent reduction in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":774.652,"endTime":780.582,"body":"European emissions from a 1990 baseline."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":780.862,"endTime":784.952,"body":"The previous number was 65%, so"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":780.862,"endTime":784.952,"body":"that's a, an increase in ambition."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":785.252,"endTime":789.912,"body":"They've now recently updated the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":785.252,"endTime":789.912,"body":"rules for the European carbon market"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":789.912,"endTime":792.062,"body":"to align us on that trajectory."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":792.342,"endTime":795.842,"body":"And that means that that annual"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":792.342,"endTime":795.842,"body":"reduction in permits, which was"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":795.942,"endTime":800.262,"body":"2.2 percent per year, now is 4.3%."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":800.572,"endTime":803.742,"body":"We're really creating that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":800.572,"endTime":803.742,"body":"scarcity of the permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":803.762,"endTime":807.982,"body":"And of course, if, if you again, go back"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":803.762,"endTime":807.982,"body":"to that marginal abatement cost curve,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":808.022,"endTime":812.107,"body":"if we line up all the companies that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":808.022,"endTime":812.107,"body":"with their different costs, some are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":812.107,"endTime":814.817,"body":"very high cost to abate, some are low."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":815.097,"endTime":819.647,"body":"As we lower the number of permits, we"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":815.097,"endTime":819.647,"body":"climb that marginal abatement cost curve."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":819.647,"endTime":823.467,"body":"So the low cost people decarbonize,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":819.647,"endTime":823.467,"body":"then we move to the next rung on"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":823.467,"endTime":825.157,"body":"the ladder, higher cost abatement."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":825.517,"endTime":830.687,"body":"Then higher and this is what's wonderful"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":825.517,"endTime":830.687,"body":"because the price signal the market"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":830.687,"endTime":834.867,"body":"determines the price of carbon that's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":830.687,"endTime":834.867,"body":"widely disseminated so that each of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":834.867,"endTime":839.517,"body":"those CEOs knows they know their internal"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":834.867,"endTime":839.517,"body":"cost and they know the permit price"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":839.517,"endTime":843.687,"body":"and they can make a smart abatement"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":839.517,"endTime":843.687,"body":"decision, which of course means"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":843.687,"endTime":845.267,"body":"their second objective is achieved."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":845.537,"endTime":849.947,"body":"We can be quite confident every year"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":845.537,"endTime":849.947,"body":"when we lower the permits the number"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":849.947,"endTime":856.352,"body":"of permits in the market It is indeed"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":849.947,"endTime":856.352,"body":"the low cost companies with the lowest"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":856.352,"endTime":860.702,"body":"cost of abatement, they choose, of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":856.352,"endTime":860.702,"body":"their own volition, to decarbonize."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":860.982,"endTime":863.922,"body":"And thus, we have achieved"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":860.982,"endTime":863.922,"body":"our second objective."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":864.182,"endTime":869.502,"body":"We've capped and lowered emissions,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":864.182,"endTime":869.502,"body":"but we've allowed the market to find"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":869.512,"endTime":874.752,"body":"and seek those companies who self"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":869.512,"endTime":874.752,"body":"select themselves to decarbonize"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":874.752,"endTime":876.502,"body":"at the lowest cost to society."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":876.722,"endTime":880.092,"body":"And that's, that's why I think there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":876.722,"endTime":880.092,"body":"an elegance and power to this mechanism."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":881.677,"endTime":887.747,"body":"And if I'm a CEO who has"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":881.677,"endTime":887.747,"body":"estimated that my annual emissions are"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":887.747,"endTime":892.607,"body":"going to be a million tons, and let's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":887.747,"endTime":892.607,"body":"say I get to September, October, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":892.607,"endTime":898.077,"body":"I'm at 900, 000 and I realize I've got"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":892.607,"endTime":898.077,"body":"a problem, what do I do at that point?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":899.117,"endTime":901.877,"body":"Yeah, so, these big"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":899.117,"endTime":901.877,"body":"emitters, and you're quite right,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":929.317,"endTime":932.177,"body":"Tom, these are, you know, you have"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":929.317,"endTime":932.177,"body":"some entities that are emitting"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":932.1780000000001,"endTime":936.777,"body":"10 million tons a year, 15 million"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":932.1780000000001,"endTime":936.777,"body":"tons, big power utilities in Europe."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":937.2620000000001,"endTime":940.892,"body":"Many of them have very"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":937.2620000000001,"endTime":940.892,"body":"sophisticated hedging programs, Tom."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":940.892,"endTime":944.3520000000001,"body":"So, in the case of power companies,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":940.892,"endTime":944.3520000000001,"body":"which is about 50 percent of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":944.3520000000001,"endTime":945.822,"body":"the emissions in, in Europe."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":946.447,"endTime":951.647,"body":"They will sell their electricity in a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":946.447,"endTime":951.647,"body":"forward trade to BMW or Mercedes who want"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":951.647,"endTime":954.187,"body":"to lock in their long term energy price."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":954.687,"endTime":958.4970000000001,"body":"Having sold the electricity,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":954.687,"endTime":958.4970000000001,"body":"the power company then buys the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":958.527,"endTime":962.177,"body":"coal and the gas, which is their"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":958.527,"endTime":962.177,"body":"input, to make that electricity."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":962.177,"endTime":965.147,"body":"They buy that in the forward"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":962.177,"endTime":965.147,"body":"market three years forward, and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":965.167,"endTime":966.8770000000001,"body":"they also buy the carbon, Tom."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":966.947,"endTime":970.3770000000001,"body":"So by selling the output, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":966.947,"endTime":970.3770000000001,"body":"electricity, and buying the three"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":970.3770000000001,"endTime":974.567,"body":"inputs, coal, gas, and carbon, they"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":970.3770000000001,"endTime":974.567,"body":"then lock in their forward margin."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":974.907,"endTime":978.817,"body":"And it's another good example of how,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":974.907,"endTime":978.817,"body":"you know, forward futures markets"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":978.947,"endTime":982.687,"body":"help the economy in terms of price"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":978.947,"endTime":982.687,"body":"discovery and risk management."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":982.9870000000001,"endTime":986.2570000000001,"body":"So that, most of these big"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":982.9870000000001,"endTime":986.2570000000001,"body":"emitters, Tom, they've got quite"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":986.267,"endTime":988.1370000000001,"body":"sophisticated hedging programs."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":988.3770000000001,"endTime":990.9570000000001,"body":"They know what their"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":988.3770000000001,"endTime":990.9570000000001,"body":"emissions are going to be."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":991.177,"endTime":995.577,"body":"They will have a carbon trader or a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":991.177,"endTime":995.577,"body":"team of people who will be then buying"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":995.577,"endTime":999.8870000000001,"body":"in the auctions and accumulating that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":995.577,"endTime":999.8870000000001,"body":"carbon over the course of the year"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":999.937,"endTime":1003.2170000000001,"body":"so that they have those permits when"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":999.937,"endTime":1003.2170000000001,"body":"it comes to the compliance deadline."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1003.407,"endTime":1005.9570000000001,"body":"There is always a few companies"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1003.407,"endTime":1005.9570000000001,"body":"that are rushing at the last"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1005.9570000000001,"endTime":1007.197,"body":"minute to get their permits in."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1007.197,"endTime":1009.307,"body":"They had a little bit of a cash shortfall."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1009.527,"endTime":1012.277,"body":"But, but I would say by and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1009.527,"endTime":1012.277,"body":"large, it's, it's pretty well"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1012.277,"endTime":1013.9870000000001,"body":"managed by these big corporates."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1014.677,"endTime":1018.327,"body":"Ok, and that 4 percent"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1014.677,"endTime":1018.327,"body":"reduction year on year that's starting"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1018.327,"endTime":1023.817,"body":"to happen from now out, that means"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1018.327,"endTime":1023.817,"body":"more than likely that that 85 will"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1023.827,"endTime":1028.197,"body":"go to 95 will go to 100 and maybe"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1023.827,"endTime":1028.197,"body":"above in the coming years, right?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1029.182,"endTime":1032.602,"body":"So it's really, really"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1029.182,"endTime":1032.602,"body":"interesting because you know, as I said,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1032.602,"endTime":1037.172,"body":"if you, if you line up today, the cost"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1032.602,"endTime":1037.172,"body":"of abatement across all these industries"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1037.172,"endTime":1042.142,"body":"from low to high, probably the high,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1037.172,"endTime":1042.142,"body":"hard to abate industries such as steel"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1042.142,"endTime":1049.097,"body":"and cement and chemicals are in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1042.142,"endTime":1049.097,"body":"150 to 300 euro range, with today's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1049.097,"endTime":1051.817,"body":"technology, Tom, with today's technology."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1052.007,"endTime":1055.127,"body":"And here is the really interesting"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1052.007,"endTime":1055.127,"body":"thing about carbon markets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1055.377,"endTime":1058.977,"body":"So one might say, well, gee, as"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1055.377,"endTime":1058.977,"body":"we keep lowering the supply, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1058.977,"endTime":1062.467,"body":"carbon price is going to have to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1058.977,"endTime":1062.467,"body":"reach those levels in order for"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1062.467,"endTime":1064.537,"body":"those companies to choose to abate."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1064.807,"endTime":1067.367,"body":"Because if it's below that,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1064.807,"endTime":1067.367,"body":"they just buy the permit, right?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1067.367,"endTime":1071.547,"body":"Why, why would I decarbonize if it cost me"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1067.367,"endTime":1071.547,"body":"200 when I can just buy the permit at 85?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1072.827,"endTime":1076.057,"body":"But the interesting thing is, you've"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1072.827,"endTime":1076.057,"body":"got, while the supply is coming"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1076.057,"endTime":1081.977,"body":"down, so is demand and technology"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1076.057,"endTime":1081.977,"body":"is bringing down those abatement"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1081.977,"endTime":1085.477,"body":"costs from 250 to 200 to 175."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1085.767,"endTime":1089.337,"body":"And therefore, this is, this is where our"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1085.767,"endTime":1089.337,"body":"research is really interesting because"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1089.487,"endTime":1094.767,"body":"what we're trying to gauge is on balance,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1089.487,"endTime":1094.767,"body":"where actually is the supply and demand."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1094.767,"endTime":1099.207,"body":"So in the power sector, as you"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1094.767,"endTime":1099.207,"body":"know very well solar and wind"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1099.207,"endTime":1101.267,"body":"are coming on gangbusters."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1101.507,"endTime":1106.982,"body":"And as solar and wind get connected to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1101.507,"endTime":1106.982,"body":"the grid, they push coal and gas off"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1106.982,"endTime":1111.112,"body":"the grid, lower emissions, and we're"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1106.982,"endTime":1111.112,"body":"seeing in the first half of this year,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1111.112,"endTime":1117.842,"body":"in 2023, we've seen a marked reduction in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1111.112,"endTime":1117.842,"body":"emissions from coal and gas burn as more"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1117.842,"endTime":1119.612,"body":"solar and wind have come on the grid."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1119.8020000000001,"endTime":1122.972,"body":"So, the answer to your"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1119.8020000000001,"endTime":1122.972,"body":"question is, not necessarily."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1123.132,"endTime":1127.862,"body":"I think there is a general, a general"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1123.132,"endTime":1127.862,"body":"expectation that carbon prices will rise"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1127.862,"endTime":1132.8220000000001,"body":"over time, and our, our seminal research"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1127.862,"endTime":1132.8220000000001,"body":"paper is called the carbon risk premium,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1132.8220000000001,"endTime":1137.082,"body":"and we put forward the argument that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1132.8220000000001,"endTime":1137.082,"body":"carbon should appreciate at around five"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1137.102,"endTime":1141.992,"body":"to seven percent per year over the next"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1137.102,"endTime":1141.992,"body":"decade to take into account that lowering"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1141.992,"endTime":1146.382,"body":"supply and higher abatement costs, but"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1141.992,"endTime":1146.382,"body":"certainly there's no guarantee of that."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1146.382,"endTime":1148.742,"body":"There's a lot of variables"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1146.382,"endTime":1148.742,"body":"in the, in this equation."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1149.722,"endTime":1150.162,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1150.512,"endTime":1154.372,"body":"And I mean, you've mentioned"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1150.512,"endTime":1154.372,"body":"Europe and California."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1154.742,"endTime":1158.5420000000001,"body":"Are they the only two markets"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1154.742,"endTime":1158.5420000000001,"body":"or are there, are there more and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1158.5720000000001,"endTime":1160.922,"body":"are there more coming or, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1158.5720000000001,"endTime":1160.922,"body":"know, where do we fall there?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1160.942,"endTime":1162.002,"body":"Because it's, it's a global issue."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1162.002,"endTime":1163.862,"body":"It's not just happening"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1162.002,"endTime":1163.862,"body":"in California and Europe."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1164.832,"endTime":1165.7820000000002,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1165.7820000000002,"endTime":1169.622,"body":"So Europe was the pioneer and it,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1165.7820000000002,"endTime":1169.622,"body":"and Europe, interestingly, built"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1169.862,"endTime":1174.512,"body":"on the success of the cap and trade"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1169.862,"endTime":1174.512,"body":"markets that were initiated for sulfur"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1174.512,"endTime":1179.112,"body":"dioxide emissions under the Bush"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1174.512,"endTime":1179.112,"body":"administration in the 1990s, which"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1179.112,"endTime":1181.0220000000002,"body":"I might add was really successful."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1181.232,"endTime":1185.002,"body":"That's what prompted Europe to launch"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1181.232,"endTime":1185.002,"body":"the world's largest carbon market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1185.362,"endTime":1190.262,"body":"That success in Europe of that reduction"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1185.362,"endTime":1190.262,"body":"in emissions of about one gigaton"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1190.5620000000001,"endTime":1194.502,"body":"has really prompted many countries"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1190.5620000000001,"endTime":1194.502,"body":"now who have made net zero pledges"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1194.502,"endTime":1198.892,"body":"themselves to look at, well, actually,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1194.502,"endTime":1198.892,"body":"this is a mechanism we should look at."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1199.092,"endTime":1203.412,"body":"One other thing I like about the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1199.092,"endTime":1203.412,"body":"mechanism is when the government sells"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1203.412,"endTime":1207.8220000000001,"body":"those permits Tom, those are permits"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1203.412,"endTime":1207.8220000000001,"body":"to pollute of course, that raises"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1207.842,"endTime":1209.922,"body":"billions of revenues for the government."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1209.982,"endTime":1214.0520000000001,"body":"And in Europe, for instance, but"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1209.982,"endTime":1214.0520000000001,"body":"it's true in most markets all of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1214.0520000000001,"endTime":1217.7820000000002,"body":"that revenue, 100 percent of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1214.0520000000001,"endTime":1217.7820000000002,"body":"revenue from selling those carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1217.7820000000002,"endTime":1223.492,"body":"permits must be reinvested in energy"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1217.7820000000002,"endTime":1223.492,"body":"efficiency and low carbon initiatives."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1223.712,"endTime":1229.387,"body":"So there's another tertiary, primary"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1223.712,"endTime":1229.387,"body":"cap emissions, secondary, achieve"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1229.387,"endTime":1234.067,"body":"it at the lowest cost, tertiary,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1229.387,"endTime":1234.067,"body":"recycle that auction money into"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1234.097,"endTime":1235.6670000000001,"body":"energy efficiency initiatives."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1235.817,"endTime":1239.4170000000001,"body":"So, countries have looked at all the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1235.817,"endTime":1239.4170000000001,"body":"different policies, and certainly I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1239.4370000000001,"endTime":1244.247,"body":"studied this at the at the LSE's Economics"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1239.4370000000001,"endTime":1244.247,"body":"and Governance program of Climate Change."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1244.597,"endTime":1249.6570000000002,"body":"This has been really the only policy that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1244.597,"endTime":1249.6570000000002,"body":"has bent the emissions curve downwards."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1249.6570000000002,"endTime":1254.382,"body":"And so, currently today, we"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1249.6570000000002,"endTime":1254.382,"body":"are invested in five regulated"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1254.382,"endTime":1255.842,"body":"markets, I'll just name them."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1256.0220000000002,"endTime":1259.462,"body":"It's the European market number"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1256.0220000000002,"endTime":1259.462,"body":"one, the UK market number"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1259.462,"endTime":1261.252,"body":"two, after Brexit was formed."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1261.502,"endTime":1262.922,"body":"Number three is California."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1263.252,"endTime":1268.352,"body":"Number four is the Regi carbon market"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1263.252,"endTime":1268.352,"body":"on the east coast of the United States."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1268.622,"endTime":1273.0620000000001,"body":"This is a carbon market that consists"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1268.622,"endTime":1273.0620000000001,"body":"of 11 states together on the east coast."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1273.342,"endTime":1275.712,"body":"And the fifth market is"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1273.342,"endTime":1275.712,"body":"the New Zealand market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1275.922,"endTime":1279.912,"body":"So these are the five today, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1275.922,"endTime":1279.912,"body":"really pleased to tell you, Tom, many,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1279.922,"endTime":1281.5320000000002,"body":"many more countries are launching."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1281.682,"endTime":1284.732,"body":"So China and South Korea"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1281.682,"endTime":1284.732,"body":"have already launched."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1284.962,"endTime":1287.7920000000001,"body":"Those markets are not open to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1284.962,"endTime":1287.7920000000001,"body":"international investment yet,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1287.7920000000001,"endTime":1289.3120000000001,"body":"but they're both quite large."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1289.512,"endTime":1292.3120000000001,"body":"But the really exciting news"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1289.512,"endTime":1292.3120000000001,"body":"is all the other new countries."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1292.3120000000001,"endTime":1297.732,"body":"So Japan announced about two"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1292.3120000000001,"endTime":1297.732,"body":"months ago that by 2026, they want"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1297.742,"endTime":1299.732,"body":"a full emission trading system."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1299.732,"endTime":1303.892,"body":"This is the fifth biggest emitter in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1299.732,"endTime":1303.892,"body":"world, a Western democracy, so I think"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1303.902,"endTime":1306.122,"body":"it'll be a high quality carbon market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1306.4270000000001,"endTime":1311.347,"body":"Other countries, Mexico has completed its"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1306.4270000000001,"endTime":1311.347,"body":"pilot program over the last two years."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1311.4070000000002,"endTime":1313.1870000000001,"body":"They should be launching later this year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1313.477,"endTime":1318.727,"body":"The Asian Tigers, Indonesia, Philippines,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1313.477,"endTime":1318.727,"body":"Malaysia, the new Thai government"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1318.757,"endTime":1322.237,"body":"has announced they want a full carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1318.757,"endTime":1322.237,"body":"market and there's many others."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1322.237,"endTime":1329.007,"body":"So I think we're moving to a world where"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1322.237,"endTime":1329.007,"body":"a mandatory carbon price is spreading."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1329.207,"endTime":1333.787,"body":"The asset class itself was trading"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1329.207,"endTime":1333.787,"body":"half a billion per day when I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1334.172,"endTime":1336.132,"body":"began my research four years ago."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1336.452,"endTime":1340.452,"body":"Now we're trading four billion per day,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1336.452,"endTime":1340.452,"body":"so it's become much bigger and more"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1340.452,"endTime":1345.506,"body":"liquid, and we believe it will be 10 to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1340.452,"endTime":1345.506,"body":"20 billion per day in,  five years or"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1345.506,"endTime":1350.656,"body":"so, overtaking eventually crude oil as"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1345.506,"endTime":1350.656,"body":"the most liquid commodity on the planet."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1351.646,"endTime":1352.366,"body":"Pun intended."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1354.566,"endTime":1355.056,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1355.556,"endTime":1359.526,"body":"And what's, what's happening in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1355.556,"endTime":1359.526,"body":"world of carbon removal projects?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1360.941,"endTime":1361.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1361.251,"endTime":1364.0710000000001,"body":"So, carbon removal is really interesting."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1364.0710000000001,"endTime":1368.401,"body":"I mean, again, when we talk about"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1364.0710000000001,"endTime":1368.401,"body":"removals as it, as it relates to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1368.451,"endTime":1372.461,"body":"to credits that's in under the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1368.451,"endTime":1372.461,"body":"first market, the voluntary market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1372.8110000000001,"endTime":1378.3010000000002,"body":"Probably, you know, maybe one tenth of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1372.8110000000001,"endTime":1378.3010000000002,"body":"1 percent of the voluntary carbon market"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1378.621,"endTime":1384.021,"body":"is related to carbon removal credits"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1378.621,"endTime":1384.021,"body":"and a removal credit really is something"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1384.3110000000001,"endTime":1386.241,"body":"that has the following characteristics."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1386.241,"endTime":1389.961,"body":"You must demonstrate from the beginning"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1386.241,"endTime":1389.961,"body":"to the end of that life cycle, whatever"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1389.961,"endTime":1394.421,"body":"that process is that you've actually"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1389.961,"endTime":1394.421,"body":"removed CO2 from the atmosphere."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1394.641,"endTime":1398.231,"body":"That's quite different than many"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1394.641,"endTime":1398.231,"body":"voluntary carbon projects, which are,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1398.421,"endTime":1401.3110000000001,"body":"you know, net neutral over a time period."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1401.681,"endTime":1406.671,"body":"But the other really important aspect,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1401.681,"endTime":1406.671,"body":"Tom, is durability of the storage."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1407.0810000000001,"endTime":1409.781,"body":"So trees are wonderful"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1407.0810000000001,"endTime":1409.781,"body":"they sequester carbon."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1409.951,"endTime":1413.521,"body":"Many people are not aware that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1409.951,"endTime":1413.521,"body":"a fully mature rainforest..."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1413.961,"endTime":1418.8110000000001,"body":"is in a really state of equilibrium,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1413.961,"endTime":1418.8110000000001,"body":"and it's not sequestering additional"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1418.8310000000001,"endTime":1421.771,"body":"carbon, perhaps 1 to 2 percent per year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1421.941,"endTime":1425.511,"body":"Most of the carbon is already locked"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1421.941,"endTime":1425.511,"body":"up in that forest, but trees die."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1425.641,"endTime":1429.5910000000001,"body":"As they die, they decompose, they release"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1425.641,"endTime":1429.5910000000001,"body":"their carbon back into the atmosphere."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1429.7910000000002,"endTime":1432.941,"body":"And new trees grow, and the forest"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1429.7910000000002,"endTime":1432.941,"body":"is in a state of equilibrium."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1433.271,"endTime":1437.661,"body":"What we're recognizing with all these"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1433.271,"endTime":1437.661,"body":"massive increases in temperatures,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1437.751,"endTime":1444.161,"body":"and the forecast, of drier and hotter"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1437.751,"endTime":1444.161,"body":"weather, is the durability of carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1444.161,"endTime":1449.431,"body":"storage in a forest has now come under"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1444.161,"endTime":1449.431,"body":"question, and I think probably rightfully"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1449.431,"endTime":1451.5810000000001,"body":"so we must protect our precious forests."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1451.741,"endTime":1453.991,"body":"We must plant as much as we can."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1454.251,"endTime":1458.601,"body":"But when you're thinking about long term"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1454.251,"endTime":1458.601,"body":"carbon storage, unfortunately, as we're"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1458.601,"endTime":1463.491,"body":"seeing with the Canadian wildfires, I'm"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1458.601,"endTime":1463.491,"body":"a Canadian, a lot of that will burn."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1463.7910000000002,"endTime":1467.8210000000001,"body":"We need more durable and in carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1463.7910000000002,"endTime":1467.8210000000001,"body":"removal, we're seeing a bit of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1467.8210000000001,"endTime":1470.011,"body":"a shift to more durable storage."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1470.021,"endTime":1473.901,"body":"And the best example would be companies"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1470.021,"endTime":1473.901,"body":"like Climeworks or Carbon Engineering,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1473.901,"endTime":1478.221,"body":"where they remove CO2 from the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1473.901,"endTime":1478.221,"body":"atmosphere using a chemical process."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1478.2910000000002,"endTime":1481.191,"body":"It's very dilute in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1478.2910000000002,"endTime":1481.191,"body":"atmosphere, but it can be removed."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1481.431,"endTime":1483.471,"body":"They then liquefy it, transport it."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1483.816,"endTime":1488.906,"body":"Inject it deep underground where"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1483.816,"endTime":1488.906,"body":"it either calcifies back into rock"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1488.996,"endTime":1494.2060000000001,"body":"or it's stored permanently below an"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1488.996,"endTime":1494.2060000000001,"body":"impervious layer where oil originated"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1494.886,"endTime":1496.4360000000001,"body":"from, right, and you cap that well."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1496.646,"endTime":1501.526,"body":"So that gives you long life storage"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1496.646,"endTime":1501.526,"body":"of carbon as opposed to a forest which"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1501.846,"endTime":1505.566,"body":"could burn down, it could be chopped"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1501.846,"endTime":1505.566,"body":"down, pests could have impacted,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1506.146,"endTime":1507.626,"body":"a storm could knock trees down."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1507.626,"endTime":1510.556,"body":"There are many variabilities"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1507.626,"endTime":1510.556,"body":"for risk of reversal."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1510.736,"endTime":1513.881,"body":"And really I think people are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1510.736,"endTime":1513.881,"body":"starting to think slow carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1513.881,"endTime":1516.211,"body":"cycle and fast carbon cycle."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1516.371,"endTime":1521.3010000000002,"body":"And fast carbon cycle areas is"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1516.371,"endTime":1521.3010000000002,"body":"probably not the best the best area"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1521.3010000000002,"endTime":1522.941,"body":"with too high risk of reversal."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1524.0410000000002,"endTime":1524.5810000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1525.161,"endTime":1529.471,"body":"And where does Carbon Cap"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1525.161,"endTime":1529.471,"body":"figure into all of this?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1529.481,"endTime":1534.371,"body":"Because, I mean, you've explained"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1529.481,"endTime":1534.371,"body":"the markets in detail and thank"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1534.371,"endTime":1537.521,"body":"you for that, because it was,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1534.371,"endTime":1537.521,"body":"you know, really interesting, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1537.8410000000001,"endTime":1539.741,"body":"what are you guys doing there?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1540.911,"endTime":1543.601,"body":"You're, you have a fund,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1540.911,"endTime":1543.601,"body":"the World Carbon Fund."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1544.1860000000001,"endTime":1545.096,"body":"What does that do?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1546.296,"endTime":1549.4260000000002,"body":"So the World Carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1546.296,"endTime":1549.4260000000002,"body":"Fund has those dual objectives."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1549.646,"endTime":1553.796,"body":"So over a rolling 12 month window,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1549.646,"endTime":1553.796,"body":"we always want to be positive."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1553.796,"endTime":1555.846,"body":"So we have an absolute return focus."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1556.096,"endTime":1558.746,"body":"To give you an example,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1556.096,"endTime":1558.746,"body":"last year carbon was down."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1558.796,"endTime":1563.131,"body":"These, the carbon markets after"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1558.796,"endTime":1563.131,"body":"a big growth phase in 2021 with"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1563.131,"endTime":1564.491,"body":"massive price appreciation."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1564.491,"endTime":1568.641,"body":"Carbon actually was, was down"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1564.491,"endTime":1568.641,"body":"in 2022, our fund was up."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1568.971,"endTime":1572.171,"body":"This year, carbon is also"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1568.971,"endTime":1572.171,"body":"negative on the year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1572.171,"endTime":1575.501,"body":"The five markets that we invest in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1572.171,"endTime":1575.501,"body":"are down about 12 percent this year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1575.721,"endTime":1576.921,"body":"And again, the fund is up."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1576.921,"endTime":1580.826,"body":"So we have this absolute return"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1576.921,"endTime":1580.826,"body":"focus Tom where we can go both long"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1580.856,"endTime":1584.516,"body":"carbon or short carbon, if that's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1580.856,"endTime":1584.516,"body":"a a word that you're familiar with."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1584.516,"endTime":1589.496,"body":"We can position in either direction to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1584.516,"endTime":1589.496,"body":"protect and, and enhance investor capital."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1589.766,"endTime":1593.616,"body":"And then that second objective, as I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1589.766,"endTime":1593.616,"body":"said, 20 percent of our performance"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1593.616,"endTime":1598.6960000000001,"body":"fee is used to buy carbon allowance"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1593.616,"endTime":1598.6960000000001,"body":"permits in the regulated market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1598.726,"endTime":1599.896,"body":"And then we cancel those."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1599.896,"endTime":1605.056,"body":"So we've now over a three and a half"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1599.896,"endTime":1605.056,"body":"year track record the fund has grown to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1605.146,"endTime":1610.156,"body":"250 million in assets under management,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1605.146,"endTime":1610.156,"body":"and the total performance is up about"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1610.1860000000001,"endTime":1613.406,"body":"90 percent net of all fees and costs."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1613.4160000000002,"endTime":1618.506,"body":"So we've crystallized three years worth of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1613.4160000000002,"endTime":1618.506,"body":"performance fees in each of the last three"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1618.506,"endTime":1623.756,"body":"calendar years, and we've taken 20 percent"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1618.506,"endTime":1623.756,"body":"of our fees in each year, purchased carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1623.756,"endTime":1626.266,"body":"allowance permits and canceled those."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1626.296,"endTime":1629.586,"body":"So there's a complete audit trail"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1626.296,"endTime":1629.586,"body":"if investors are interested in."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1629.806,"endTime":1634.496,"body":"We're, to be honest, Tom, that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1629.806,"endTime":1634.496,"body":"impact piece, we're only now seeing"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1634.6960000000001,"endTime":1638.576,"body":"several institutional investors being"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1634.6960000000001,"endTime":1638.576,"body":"interested in investing in the fund."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1639.1660000000002,"endTime":1640.976,"body":"Really focused on the impact piece."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1640.976,"endTime":1643.496,"body":"We have over 80 investors in the fund."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1643.526,"endTime":1647.496,"body":"Most are not focused to be"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1643.526,"endTime":1647.496,"body":"honest with you on the impact."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1647.566,"endTime":1649.146,"body":"It's a nice to have for them."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1649.476,"endTime":1653.1660000000002,"body":"Most of them are interested in low"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1649.476,"endTime":1653.1660000000002,"body":"correlation, monthly liquidity,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1653.506,"endTime":1655.296,"body":"you know, and generating returns."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1655.296,"endTime":1658.016,"body":"And of course, you know, perhaps"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1655.296,"endTime":1658.016,"body":"that is the way it should be."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1658.4160000000002,"endTime":1662.646,"body":"But now we're seeing a trickle of new"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1658.4160000000002,"endTime":1662.646,"body":"institutional interest in the fund where"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1662.646,"endTime":1667.4460000000001,"body":"the Article Nine status, the high impact"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1662.646,"endTime":1667.4460000000001,"body":"is becoming for them a key factor."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1668.4660000000001,"endTime":1673.5810000000001,"body":"Okay, cool, and just"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1668.4660000000001,"endTime":1673.5810000000001,"body":"to dig into it a little deeper, who"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1673.651,"endTime":1676.3010000000002,"body":"are typical investors in your fund?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1676.3010000000002,"endTime":1680.601,"body":"Is it kind of mom and pop investment"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1676.3010000000002,"endTime":1680.601,"body":"houses or is it the big Blackrocks or is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1680.601,"endTime":1682.731,"body":"it a combination or somewhere in between?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1683.711,"endTime":1685.411,"body":"I would say"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1683.711,"endTime":1685.411,"body":"it's somewhere in between."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1685.611,"endTime":1689.251,"body":"It, it began with high net worth"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1685.611,"endTime":1689.251,"body":"individuals and family offices."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1689.521,"endTime":1694.271,"body":"It took us about maybe nine months before"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1689.521,"endTime":1694.271,"body":"our first institutional investor came in."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1694.501,"endTime":1697.5710000000001,"body":"And then it's been a year after"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1694.501,"endTime":1697.5710000000001,"body":"that, the second institution,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1697.601,"endTime":1699.031,"body":"a year after that, the third."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1699.3310000000001,"endTime":1704.111,"body":"But only in the last five months,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1699.3310000000001,"endTime":1704.111,"body":"two additional significant"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1704.111,"endTime":1705.661,"body":"institutions have come on board."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1705.901,"endTime":1710.3110000000001,"body":"And our pipeline now is much more"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1705.901,"endTime":1710.3110000000001,"body":"institutional focused, I would say."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1710.3110000000001,"endTime":1714.381,"body":"So it's you know, I think things"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1710.3110000000001,"endTime":1714.381,"body":"are looking quite optimistic for,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1714.401,"endTime":1717.8410000000001,"body":"for future growth and onboarding"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1714.401,"endTime":1717.8410000000001,"body":"of more institutional clients."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1718.511,"endTime":1718.8310000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1718.861,"endTime":1723.5810000000001,"body":"And I mean, I know you've addressed"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1718.861,"endTime":1723.5810000000001,"body":"this partially already, but are they"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1723.851,"endTime":1729.3310000000001,"body":"interested in your fund for being"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1723.851,"endTime":1729.3310000000001,"body":"able to say to, you know, their"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1729.3310000000001,"endTime":1732.711,"body":"investors, Oh, we were investing in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1729.3310000000001,"endTime":1732.711,"body":"this really green stuff over here."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1732.711,"endTime":1734.701,"body":"Or is it, you know, for profit?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1734.711,"endTime":1736.441,"body":"Or is it a combination?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1736.451,"endTime":1737.8010000000002,"body":"Or where do you fall there?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1738.701,"endTime":1738.951,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1738.951,"endTime":1743.0510000000002,"body":"So I, as I said, I think that the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1738.951,"endTime":1743.0510000000002,"body":"bulk of investors, certainly out of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1743.0510000000002,"endTime":1747.931,"body":"the, you know, 85 investors we have in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1743.0510000000002,"endTime":1747.931,"body":"the fund the bulk would be interested"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1747.931,"endTime":1751.736,"body":"in the fact that carbon has is an"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1747.931,"endTime":1751.736,"body":"asset class with a low correlation."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1752.146,"endTime":1754.266,"body":"Carbon is an asset class with a tailwind."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1754.6660000000002,"endTime":1757.286,"body":"And it's a liquid, asset class."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1757.476,"endTime":1761.1960000000001,"body":"So, you know, investors are seeking"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1757.476,"endTime":1761.1960000000001,"body":"things with a positive rate of return"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1761.506,"endTime":1764.396,"body":"and a low correlation to the other"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1761.506,"endTime":1764.396,"body":"investments in their portfolio."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1764.396,"endTime":1767.4260000000002,"body":"And carbon really does, from"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1764.396,"endTime":1767.4260000000002,"body":"an asset class perspective,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1767.4260000000002,"endTime":1768.9260000000002,"body":"it does tick the box there."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1769.056,"endTime":1771.2060000000001,"body":"So I would say that's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1769.056,"endTime":1771.2060000000001,"body":"the bulk of the driver."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1771.536,"endTime":1777.106,"body":"However, just in, in March of this year,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1771.536,"endTime":1777.106,"body":"a very large, well known institution who"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1777.106,"endTime":1781.626,"body":"made a significant investment with us"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1777.106,"endTime":1781.626,"body":"after tracking the fund for two and a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1781.626,"endTime":1787.836,"body":"half years they invested, and for them,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1781.626,"endTime":1787.836,"body":"the article nine status, the impact"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1787.836,"endTime":1790.9460000000001,"body":"piece was of paramount importance."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1790.996,"endTime":1793.606,"body":"And I mentioned there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1790.996,"endTime":1793.606,"body":"several others that are coming on"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1793.606,"endTime":1797.306,"body":"the horizon now where that impact"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1793.606,"endTime":1797.306,"body":"piece is very important to them."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1797.576,"endTime":1801.611,"body":"The other thing just to mention these"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1797.576,"endTime":1801.611,"body":"institutions Tom, given the, some of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1801.621,"endTime":1806.481,"body":"the uncertainties in the voluntary"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1801.621,"endTime":1806.481,"body":"carbon market, our approach, which"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1806.511,"endTime":1811.861,"body":"most consider to be quite unorthodox in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1806.511,"endTime":1811.861,"body":"terms of, you know, buying compliance"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1811.861,"endTime":1818.461,"body":"carbon, paying 70, 80 more euros or"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1811.861,"endTime":1818.461,"body":"dollars per ton, and then canceling those"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1818.481,"endTime":1822.871,"body":"permits when you could buy a voluntary"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1818.481,"endTime":1822.871,"body":"credit for 5 dollars or 1 dollar."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1823.3010000000002,"endTime":1825.011,"body":"That was seen as quite unorthodox."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1825.011,"endTime":1828.251,"body":"Of course, the reason we chose"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1825.011,"endTime":1828.251,"body":"to do that is because we believe"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1828.3110000000001,"endTime":1831.011,"body":"there's real veracity there."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1831.3410000000001,"endTime":1835.871,"body":"But, but interestingly, two institutions"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1831.3410000000001,"endTime":1835.871,"body":"have now contacted us and have said,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1836.251,"endTime":1841.131,"body":"could we help them buy and cancel"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1836.251,"endTime":1841.131,"body":"compliance carbon as part of their"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1841.281,"endTime":1843.501,"body":"corporate net zero objectives?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1843.501,"endTime":1845.3010000000002,"body":"And I, I think that's very interesting."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1845.421,"endTime":1845.481,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1845.5810000000001,"endTime":1846.991,"body":"To see how that will develop."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1847.881,"endTime":1851.3110000000001,"body":"Okay, and just help"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1847.881,"endTime":1851.3110000000001,"body":"me out here, because I know very"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1851.3110000000001,"endTime":1852.931,"body":"little about finance and investments."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1853.931,"endTime":1855.421,"body":"How do you actually make the money?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1855.8410000000001,"endTime":1856.5910000000001,"body":"How does that work?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1856.5910000000001,"endTime":1859.711,"body":"I mean, I know, is it, is it like"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1856.5910000000001,"endTime":1859.711,"body":"day trading where you're just"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1859.8110000000001,"endTime":1863.521,"body":"buying when the price goes down"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1859.8110000000001,"endTime":1863.521,"body":"and then selling when it goes up?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1863.521,"endTime":1865.441,"body":"Is it as simple as that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1863.521,"endTime":1865.441,"body":"or how does it work?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1866.381,"endTime":1869.0910000000001,"body":"There, there is an"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1866.381,"endTime":1869.0910000000001,"body":"element that is as simple as that."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1869.131,"endTime":1872.531,"body":"Our process is actually quite"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1869.131,"endTime":1872.531,"body":"quantitative and systematic."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1872.986,"endTime":1878.4160000000002,"body":"So our head of research is"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1872.986,"endTime":1878.4160000000002,"body":"a climate policy expert and"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1878.4160000000002,"endTime":1879.866,"body":"an economist by training."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1880.096,"endTime":1883.496,"body":"And what we have done is we've"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1880.096,"endTime":1883.496,"body":"built very detailed supply"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1883.496,"endTime":1885.316,"body":"and demand models for carbon."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1885.556,"endTime":1889.116,"body":"Of course, the government announces"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1885.556,"endTime":1889.116,"body":"the total annual supply of permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1889.116,"endTime":1892.226,"body":"As I said, it's very transparent,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1889.116,"endTime":1892.226,"body":"so we don't have to do a lot of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1892.226,"endTime":1894.076,"body":"work on the supply of permits."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1894.226,"endTime":1896.846,"body":"Where our research"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1894.226,"endTime":1896.846,"body":"focuses, Tom, is on demand."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1896.846,"endTime":1899.256,"body":"And demand means, what are the emissions?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1899.656,"endTime":1903.346,"body":"What are the actual projected"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1899.656,"endTime":1903.346,"body":"emissions of these big emitters?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1903.616,"endTime":1908.7160000000001,"body":"And we use a lot of automated"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1903.616,"endTime":1908.7160000000001,"body":"technology, Python scripts to scrape"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1908.726,"endTime":1913.826,"body":"data in order to put a, put together"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1908.726,"endTime":1913.826,"body":"a picture of supply versus demand."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1914.126,"endTime":1919.326,"body":"I mentioned the background to the company"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1914.126,"endTime":1919.326,"body":"was after selling my previous asset"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1919.326,"endTime":1923.106,"body":"management business, I had an earn out"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1919.326,"endTime":1923.106,"body":"period and then I had some time out."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1923.4460000000001,"endTime":1926.516,"body":"That is when I became deeply"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1923.4460000000001,"endTime":1926.516,"body":"involved in climate research,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1926.736,"endTime":1928.056,"body":"nothing to do with carbon."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1928.396,"endTime":1933.366,"body":"That, that concern from reading the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1928.396,"endTime":1933.366,"body":"academic literature, particularly in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1933.366,"endTime":1937.986,"body":"area of feedback mechanisms, convinced"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1933.366,"endTime":1937.986,"body":"me that this was an acute problem."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1938.316,"endTime":1939.906,"body":"I then enrolled at the LSE."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1940.1760000000002,"endTime":1943.406,"body":"In their Economics and Governance of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1940.1760000000002,"endTime":1943.406,"body":"Climate Change program, and that's where"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1943.406,"endTime":1947.4660000000001,"body":"I learned about these carbon markets,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1943.406,"endTime":1947.4660000000001,"body":"but no one had done comprehensive"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1947.4660000000001,"endTime":1953.4260000000002,"body":"research on the asset class, Tom, so I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1947.4660000000001,"endTime":1953.4260000000002,"body":"hired a PhD in 2018, and we collected"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1953.4260000000002,"endTime":1955.106,"body":"the data on these carbon markets."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1955.106,"endTime":1955.736,"body":"They're liquid."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1956.351,"endTime":1960.0810000000001,"body":"They were trading half a billion a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1956.351,"endTime":1960.0810000000001,"body":"day, and we did all that research,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1960.0910000000001,"endTime":1963.741,"body":"analyzed the data, and that has"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1960.0910000000001,"endTime":1963.741,"body":"been published last year in the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1963.741,"endTime":1965.481,"body":"Journal of Alternative Investments."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1965.481,"endTime":1968.711,"body":"I would encourage people to read"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1965.481,"endTime":1968.711,"body":"that paper if they're interested"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1968.711,"endTime":1970.731,"body":"in carbon as a liquid asset class."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1971.141,"endTime":1977.681,"body":"And one of those conclusions in that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1971.141,"endTime":1977.681,"body":"paper was that if you can the carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1977.681,"endTime":1984.231,"body":"price is, is most mainly influenced by"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1977.681,"endTime":1984.231,"body":"that intersection of supply and demand."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1984.636,"endTime":1988.566,"body":"So, you know, if, if all of a sudden"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1984.636,"endTime":1988.566,"body":"we have a recession, Tom, a deep"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1988.566,"endTime":1992.586,"body":"recession in Europe, like we saw in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1988.566,"endTime":1992.586,"body":"Covid, industrial production will fall."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1993.146,"endTime":1998.066,"body":"Mm-hmm, steel cement, chemicals, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1993.146,"endTime":1998.066,"body":"emissions goes down, less demand for"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":1998.066,"endTime":1999.9260000000002,"body":"permits and the carbon price falls."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2000.136,"endTime":2003.616,"body":"Which if you think about it as a"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2000.136,"endTime":2003.616,"body":"mechanism, that's not a bad thing."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2003.9460000000001,"endTime":2007.606,"body":"In a time of recession when"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2003.9460000000001,"endTime":2007.606,"body":"people are tightening their belts."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2007.816,"endTime":2011.7160000000001,"body":"The carbon price being imposed on"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2007.816,"endTime":2011.7160000000001,"body":"these struggling companies is lower."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2012.536,"endTime":2016.276,"body":"Once we come out of recession,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2012.536,"endTime":2016.276,"body":"emissions pick up, the demand for"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2016.276,"endTime":2021.106,"body":"the permits, of course, picks up, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2016.276,"endTime":2021.106,"body":"price picks up, and there's a higher"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2021.106,"endTime":2024.736,"body":"carbon price, but now, hopefully, the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2021.106,"endTime":2024.736,"body":"companies can afford to pay that price."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2024.9560000000001,"endTime":2029.4660000000001,"body":"So the mechanism has a self adjusting"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2024.9560000000001,"endTime":2029.4660000000001,"body":"methodology, and certainly carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2029.4660000000001,"endTime":2033.296,"body":"should be seen as pro cyclical even"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2029.4660000000001,"endTime":2033.296,"body":"though it has a very low correlation."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2033.356,"endTime":2037.816,"body":"We always explain to clients in a global"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2033.356,"endTime":2037.816,"body":"recession we would expect prices to fall"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2038.126,"endTime":2040.386,"body":"and then, you know, rise in a global boom."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2040.836,"endTime":2042.9360000000001,"body":"So it's a, it's a fascinating area."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2043.7060000000001,"endTime":2049.696,"body":"Ok, you mentioned"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2043.7060000000001,"endTime":2049.696,"body":"the Fit for 30, is it?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2049.836,"endTime":2050.426,"body":"Fit for 55."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2050.426,"endTime":2051.486,"body":"Fit for 55, right, okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2051.8559999999998,"endTime":2056.836,"body":"So that, that's the requirement of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2051.8559999999998,"endTime":2056.836,"body":"all 27 nations of the EU to reduce"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2056.836,"endTime":2061.456,"body":"their emissions, as you said, 55"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2056.836,"endTime":2061.456,"body":"percent versus the 1990 baseline."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2062.1059999999998,"endTime":2062.546,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2063.266,"endTime":2065.406,"body":"How likely do you think"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2063.266,"endTime":2065.406,"body":"we are to achieve that?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2066.666,"endTime":2072.086,"body":"Well, before we change"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2066.666,"endTime":2072.086,"body":"the linear reduction factor, Right."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2072.306,"endTime":2077.126,"body":"So when, when, if you look at the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2072.306,"endTime":2077.126,"body":"annual, we're in a, in the, in the fourth"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2077.126,"endTime":2078.8360000000002,"body":"phase of the European carbon market."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2079.126,"endTime":2082.246,"body":"So they've already announced"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2079.126,"endTime":2082.246,"body":"how much supply of permits will"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2082.246,"endTime":2083.596,"body":"come out every single year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2083.596,"endTime":2086.0660000000003,"body":"So you can, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2083.596,"endTime":2086.0660000000003,"body":"if those permits come out,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2086.436,"endTime":2087.666,"body":"that's what can be emitted."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2087.686,"endTime":2093.006,"body":"So you can add up all those permits out"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2087.686,"endTime":2093.006,"body":"to 2030 and basically you can calculate"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2093.006,"endTime":2094.3360000000002,"body":"what will the total emissions be."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2094.596,"endTime":2099.946,"body":"So it's once they aligned the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2094.596,"endTime":2099.946,"body":"emissions cap in the carbon market"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2099.976,"endTime":2104.706,"body":"with the 50 Fit for 55 legislation,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2099.976,"endTime":2104.706,"body":"I became much more confident that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2104.706,"endTime":2106.206,"body":"we will achieve those objectives."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2106.466,"endTime":2110.016,"body":"So I feel before they pass the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2106.466,"endTime":2110.016,"body":"legislation somewhat questionable."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2110.246,"endTime":2113.656,"body":"Now, I think I think there's a really,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2110.246,"endTime":2113.656,"body":"really good chance of that being achieved."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2114.746,"endTime":2115.226,"body":"Impressive."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2115.416,"endTime":2115.896,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2116.196,"endTime":2116.5660000000003,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2116.576,"endTime":2119.596,"body":"Because I was not confident"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2116.576,"endTime":2119.596,"body":"at all, I have to be honest."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2120.016,"endTime":2120.906,"body":"Okay, that's good."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2121.0660000000003,"endTime":2121.696,"body":"That's good to hear."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2122.466,"endTime":2125.186,"body":"We're coming towards the end"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2122.466,"endTime":2125.186,"body":"of the podcast now, Mike."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2125.196,"endTime":2128.886,"body":"Is there any question I haven't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2125.196,"endTime":2128.886,"body":"asked that you wish I had?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2128.886,"endTime":2131.526,"body":"Or any aspect of this we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2128.886,"endTime":2131.526,"body":"haven't covered that you think"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2131.526,"endTime":2132.486,"body":"it's important to highlight?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2133.899,"endTime":2136.889,"body":"No, I guess I would just"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2133.899,"endTime":2136.889,"body":"say that If people are following"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2136.889,"endTime":2141.629,"body":"Climate closely, and I really enjoy"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2136.889,"endTime":2141.629,"body":"your podcast you know, it's excellent."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2141.969,"endTime":2145.839,"body":"If you're following things closely, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2141.969,"endTime":2145.839,"body":"guess it's important to take a step back"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2145.839,"endTime":2147.779,"body":"and say where are we in this struggle."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2148.179,"endTime":2152.339,"body":"Since Paris was signed, of course, in"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2148.179,"endTime":2152.339,"body":"2015, which was a miraculous achievement,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2152.879,"endTime":2157.329,"body":"194 countries, but of course, in 2016,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2152.879,"endTime":2157.329,"body":"we then had a record year of emissions,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2157.689,"endTime":2162.889,"body":"2017 record, 18 record, 19 record,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2157.689,"endTime":2162.889,"body":"2020, we had COVID, and so there was"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2162.889,"endTime":2171.9990000000003,"body":"a 7 percent fall, but 2021, a new"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2162.889,"endTime":2171.9990000000003,"body":"record, and 2022, a new record, so very"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2171.9990000000003,"endTime":2178.139,"body":"important to be realistic about all of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2171.9990000000003,"endTime":2178.139,"body":"the development, but recognizing that"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2178.149,"endTime":2183.209,"body":"the planet doesn't watch TV or read the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2178.149,"endTime":2183.209,"body":"newspaper, because if you do, you think"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2183.209,"endTime":2188.429,"body":"we're doing wonderful on this issue, but"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2183.209,"endTime":2188.429,"body":"in fact, we're emitting more and more CO2."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2188.659,"endTime":2194.299,"body":"And this is why I think carbon removal"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2188.659,"endTime":2194.299,"body":"is going to become an enormously"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2194.309,"endTime":2199.209,"body":"important aspect for us to get to"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2194.309,"endTime":2199.209,"body":"grips with because without that, we are"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2199.259,"endTime":2203.849,"body":"risking triggering many tipping points"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2199.259,"endTime":2203.849,"body":"and therefore runaway climate change."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2203.849,"endTime":2207.159,"body":"And as I mentioned, one of the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2203.849,"endTime":2207.159,"body":"areas of research I focus on"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2207.2290000000003,"endTime":2209.649,"body":"is climate feedback mechanisms."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2209.649,"endTime":2211.079,"body":"I think the research is nascent."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2211.379,"endTime":2216.194,"body":"I think there's also a reluctance on the"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2211.379,"endTime":2216.194,"body":"part of academics in that area to perhaps"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2216.194,"endTime":2220.404,"body":"be vociferous about what they're finding"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2216.194,"endTime":2220.404,"body":"because academics are conservative."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2220.414,"endTime":2223.084,"body":"They want to achieve, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2220.414,"endTime":2223.084,"body":"more evidence, more evidence,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2223.414,"endTime":2224.844,"body":"but we're running out of time."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2225.1440000000002,"endTime":2228.344,"body":"Just recently we saw"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2225.1440000000002,"endTime":2228.344,"body":"the carbon budget for 1."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2228.344,"endTime":2228.914,"body":"5 degrees."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2229.1440000000002,"endTime":2233.084,"body":"Of course, we've already warmed"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2229.1440000000002,"endTime":2233.084,"body":"the planet by between 1.1 and 1.2."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2233.1040000000003,"endTime":2237.004,"body":"So we have this very small"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2233.1040000000003,"endTime":2237.004,"body":"remaining temperature budget."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2237.014,"endTime":2241.6440000000002,"body":"And when we translate that into how"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2237.014,"endTime":2241.6440000000002,"body":"much we can emit, it's currently"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2241.6440000000002,"endTime":2244.984,"body":"about six years of our run rate."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2245.164,"endTime":2248.6240000000003,"body":"Our run rate is 40 billion tons per year."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2249.114,"endTime":2253.754,"body":"And, and therefore I think that's what I'd"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2249.114,"endTime":2253.754,"body":"like to leave people with is, is the scope"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2253.814,"endTime":2256.1040000000003,"body":"and scale of the problem is enormous."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2256.224,"endTime":2258.1240000000003,"body":"Carbon removal will have to play a role."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2258.304,"endTime":2264.004,"body":"But my hope is it's a combination of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2258.304,"endTime":2264.004,"body":"more countries adopting a cap and trade"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2264.634,"endTime":2267.184,"body":"market to cap and lower emissions."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2267.244,"endTime":2269.324,"body":"That's got to be the first focus."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2269.424,"endTime":2273.149,"body":"And then in concert with carbon"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2269.424,"endTime":2273.149,"body":"removal at, at big scale."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2273.629,"endTime":2278.639,"body":"So, our website is open, there's lots of"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2273.629,"endTime":2278.639,"body":"research on our, our website carbon-cap."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2279.179,"endTime":2282.449,"body":"com, and, and I know you'll put it"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2279.179,"endTime":2282.449,"body":"in the show notes, but there's lots"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2282.449,"endTime":2286.389,"body":"of research, educational videos,"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2282.449,"endTime":2286.389,"body":"webinars, and papers, and so it"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2286.399,"endTime":2288.009,"body":"would invite people to have a look."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2288.764,"endTime":2291.074,"body":"Okay, that was"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2288.764,"endTime":2291.074,"body":"going to be my next question."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2291.084,"endTime":2292.634,"body":"Where would you have people go to?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2293.064,"endTime":2297.024,"body":"Is that paper you mentioned that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2293.064,"endTime":2297.024,"body":"you, you authored is, is that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2297.024,"endTime":2300.1440000000002,"body":"available as well on your website or"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2297.024,"endTime":2300.1440000000002,"body":"where would people go to find that?"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2300.1440000000002,"endTime":2302.934,"body":"I don't think, I"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2300.1440000000002,"endTime":2302.934,"body":"don't think the academic paper"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2302.984,"endTime":2304.194,"body":"is available on the website."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2304.194,"endTime":2308.694,"body":"I think there's some issues with just"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2304.194,"endTime":2308.694,"body":"distribution rights, but if anyone emails"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2308.734,"endTime":2312.044,"body":"me or connects with me on LinkedIn, I'd"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2308.734,"endTime":2312.044,"body":"be very happy to send you the paper."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2312.699,"endTime":2313.049,"body":"Perfect."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2313.049,"endTime":2315.089,"body":"And I'll put a link to your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2313.049,"endTime":2315.089,"body":"LinkedIn profile in the show"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2315.089,"endTime":2316.389,"body":"notes as well for people to find."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2317.079,"endTime":2317.599,"body":"Super."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2317.649,"endTime":2319.169,"body":"Mike, that's been fascinating."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2319.419,"endTime":2321.199,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2319.419,"endTime":2321.199,"body":"on the podcast today."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2322.2290000000003,"endTime":2322.949,"body":"Thank you, Tom."},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2322.989,"endTime":2325.569,"body":"I really enjoyed it and best"},{"speaker":"Mike Azlen","startTime":2322.989,"endTime":2325.569,"body":"of luck with the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2326.731,"endTime":2328.621,"body":"Okay, we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2326.731,"endTime":2328.621,"body":"come to the end of the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2329.311,"endTime":2330.451,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2331.291,"endTime":2334.201,"body":"If you'd like to know more about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2331.291,"endTime":2334.201,"body":"the Climate Confident podcast,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2334.381,"endTime":2340.111,"body":"feel free to drop me an email"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2334.381,"endTime":2340.111,"body":"to Tom raftery@outlook.com."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2340.681,"endTime":2343.111,"body":"Or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2343.675,"endTime":2347.395,"body":"If you like the show, please, don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2343.675,"endTime":2347.395,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2347.395,"endTime":2351.925,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2347.395,"endTime":2351.925,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2352.555,"endTime":2355.495,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2352.555,"endTime":2355.495,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2355.705,"endTime":2358.405,"body":"It really does help new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2355.705,"endTime":2358.405,"body":"people to find the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2359.305,"endTime":2361.3450000000003,"body":"Thanks, catch you all next time."}]}