{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":3.598,"endTime":7.093,"body":"Even if people aren't going"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":3.598,"endTime":7.093,"body":"on all about climate change, climate"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":7.093,"endTime":13.183,"body":"change, I think there is this you know,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":7.093,"endTime":13.183,"body":"submerged dread, and avoidance and denial."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":13.203,"endTime":14.783,"body":"But we know there's something to avoid."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":14.883,"endTime":16.983,"body":"We know there's something we"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":14.883,"endTime":16.983,"body":"are not thinking about and it's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":16.983,"endTime":18.263,"body":"the future 'cause it's scary."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":18.483,"endTime":24.623,"body":"And I do think someone with some courage"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":18.483,"endTime":24.623,"body":"and leadership to sell the idea might"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":24.623,"endTime":28.253,"body":"find there's, more public approval"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":24.623,"endTime":28.253,"body":"than perhaps they, they realized."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":28.839,"endTime":30.909,"body":"Good morning, good"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":28.839,"endTime":30.909,"body":"afternoon, or good evening,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.919,"endTime":32.419,"body":"wherever you are in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":32.739,"endTime":36.469,"body":"This is the Climate Confident"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":32.739,"endTime":36.469,"body":"podcast, the number one podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":36.609,"endTime":40.379,"body":"showcasing best practices in climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":36.609,"endTime":40.379,"body":"emission reductions and removals."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":40.809,"endTime":42.749,"body":"And I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.909,"endTime":46.669,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.909,"endTime":46.669,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":46.829,"endTime":49.189,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":55.093,"endTime":55.753,"body":"Hi, everyone."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":55.763,"endTime":59.163,"body":"Welcome to episode 142 of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":55.763,"endTime":59.163,"body":"Climate Confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":59.643,"endTime":60.973,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":61.453,"endTime":64.903,"body":"Before we kick off today's show, I want"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":61.453,"endTime":64.903,"body":"to take a moment to express my gratitude"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":64.933,"endTime":66.943,"body":"to all of our amazing supporters."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":67.453,"endTime":70.743,"body":"Your support has been instrumental"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":67.453,"endTime":70.743,"body":"in keeping this podcast going,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":71.193,"endTime":74.263,"body":"and I am really grateful for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":71.193,"endTime":74.263,"body":"each and every one of you."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":75.113,"endTime":78.663,"body":"If you're not already a supporter, I'd"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":75.113,"endTime":78.663,"body":"like to encourage you to consider joining"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":78.663,"endTime":82.273,"body":"our community of like minded individuals"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":78.663,"endTime":82.273,"body":"who are passionate about climate."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":82.968,"endTime":86.028,"body":"Supporting the podcast is easy and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":82.968,"endTime":86.028,"body":"affordable, with options starting"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":86.028,"endTime":87.978,"body":"as low as just 3 Euros or dollars."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":88.616,"endTime":91.006,"body":"That's less than the cost of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":88.616,"endTime":91.006,"body":"your latte, and your support"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":91.006,"endTime":93.726,"body":"will make a huge difference in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":91.006,"endTime":93.726,"body":"keeping this show going strong."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":94.676,"endTime":98.166,"body":"To become a supporter, simply click on"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":94.676,"endTime":98.166,"body":"the support link in the show notes of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":98.166,"endTime":101.696,"body":"this or any episode, or visit tinyurl."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":101.726,"endTime":103.486,"body":"com slash climatepod."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":104.346,"endTime":108.676,"body":"Now, without further ado, with me"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":104.346,"endTime":108.676,"body":"on the show today, I have my two"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":108.676,"endTime":110.826,"body":"special guests, Tina and Denise."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":111.506,"endTime":113.386,"body":"Tina and Denise, welcome to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":113.396,"endTime":116.846,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourselves"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":113.396,"endTime":116.846,"body":"with maybe Tina going first, seeing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":116.846,"endTime":118.366,"body":"as Denise has been on the show before?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":118.97,"endTime":119.59,"body":"Oh, thank you."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":120.09,"endTime":123.83,"body":"My name is Tina Fawcett and I'm"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":120.09,"endTime":123.83,"body":"a senior researcher and associate"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":123.86,"endTime":127.71,"body":"professor at the Environmental Change"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":123.86,"endTime":127.71,"body":"Institute at the University of Oxford."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":128.455,"endTime":129.145,"body":"Okay, Denise?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":129.68,"endTime":131.14,"body":"Hi, yes, I'm Denise Baden."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":131.28,"endTime":134.98,"body":"I'm professor of Sustainable Business"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":131.28,"endTime":134.98,"body":"at the University of Southampton."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":136.225,"endTime":136.835,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":137.695,"endTime":143.23,"body":"And we are having a conversation"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":137.695,"endTime":143.23,"body":"today about the topic of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":143.79,"endTime":145.67,"body":"personal carbon allowances."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":146.21,"endTime":150.79,"body":"So this is something that has been"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":146.21,"endTime":150.79,"body":"talked about for quite a while, but maybe"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":151.58,"endTime":156.15,"body":"Tina, would you like to dig in first and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":151.58,"endTime":156.15,"body":"explain to people who might be unaware,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":157.1,"endTime":159.55,"body":"what are personal carbon allowances?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":159.73,"endTime":162.71,"body":"What's, what's the, the idea"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":159.73,"endTime":162.71,"body":"of personal carbon allowances?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":164.165,"endTime":167.745,"body":"So the idea of personal"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":164.165,"endTime":167.745,"body":"carbon allowances is finding a way"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":167.805,"endTime":171.945,"body":"of reducing national and global"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":167.805,"endTime":171.945,"body":"carbon emissions in a way that's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":171.945,"endTime":176.185,"body":"fair and in a way that engages people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":171.945,"endTime":176.185,"body":"so that people are involved in this"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":176.89,"endTime":178.85,"body":"society-wide reduction we've got to make."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":179.55,"endTime":184.02,"body":"And, there are different variants of the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":179.55,"endTime":184.02,"body":"idea, as you might imagine, for something"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":184.02,"endTime":185.5,"body":"that a number of people have worked on."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":185.52,"endTime":190.38,"body":"But the basic idea is that within a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":185.52,"endTime":190.38,"body":"national carbon cap, each individual"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":190.47,"endTime":194.9,"body":"would get an equal share of carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":190.47,"endTime":194.9,"body":"emissions, let's say for their household"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":194.92,"endTime":198.9,"body":"energy use and transport, energy use, and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":194.92,"endTime":198.9,"body":"maybe their consumption of food as well."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":199.607,"endTime":204.872,"body":"And when you purchased, a product or"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":199.607,"endTime":204.872,"body":"a service that involves carbon, not"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":204.872,"endTime":207.992,"body":"only would you pay the money, you'd"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":204.872,"endTime":207.992,"body":"have to pay in sort of carbon points"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":208.052,"endTime":209.952,"body":"or carbon units, throughout the year."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":210.012,"endTime":215.352,"body":"And if you spent less than your allowance,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":210.012,"endTime":215.352,"body":"you'd have a sort of spare carbon, a set"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":215.352,"endTime":218.472,"body":"of carbon allowances you could sell to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":215.352,"endTime":218.472,"body":"somebody, and if you spent more, you'd"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":218.472,"endTime":220.272,"body":"need to acquire more carbon allowances."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":220.812,"endTime":224.392,"body":"So it's a, it's a way of a way"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":220.812,"endTime":224.392,"body":"of sharing out the carbon cap."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":226.572,"endTime":229.382,"body":"Okay, and is it fair?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":231.895,"endTime":234.815,"body":"I think it's more"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":231.895,"endTime":234.815,"body":"fair than some of the alternatives."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":234.975,"endTime":237.335,"body":"I mean, there's always this"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":234.975,"endTime":237.335,"body":"question about if you give people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":237.475,"endTime":240.695,"body":"an equal allowance, people's needs"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":237.475,"endTime":240.695,"body":"can be really quite different."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":241.34,"endTime":245.5,"body":"So, if you think about household energy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":241.34,"endTime":245.5,"body":"use, actually, if you, if you live"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":245.5,"endTime":250.02,"body":"in a household on your own, you kind"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":245.5,"endTime":250.02,"body":"of, you need to heat all your space."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":250.02,"endTime":252.98,"body":"Whereas if you move, if one other person"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":250.02,"endTime":252.98,"body":"moves in with you, let's say you'd"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":252.98,"endTime":257.18,"body":"have two, two carbon allowances, but"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":252.98,"endTime":257.18,"body":"you wouldn't use that much more energy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":257.28,"endTime":259.18,"body":"as two people, then you do as one."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":259.18,"endTime":262.66,"body":"So there are some issues"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":259.18,"endTime":262.66,"body":"around giving people equal"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":262.66,"endTime":264.78,"body":"allowances for sure, but it's."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":266.92,"endTime":271.14,"body":"You know, it's, it's fundamentally"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":266.92,"endTime":271.14,"body":"saying we've got this limited resource,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":271.14,"endTime":274.7,"body":"which is the amount of carbon we"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":271.14,"endTime":274.7,"body":"can emit into the atmosphere before"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":274.72,"endTime":279.18,"body":"we cross into sort of cross really"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":274.72,"endTime":279.18,"body":"dangerous planetary boundaries."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":279.64,"endTime":282.16,"body":"And we're going to give each p"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":279.64,"endTime":282.16,"body":"person an equal share of that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":282.16,"endTime":285.34,"body":"And of course in practice that means some"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":282.16,"endTime":285.34,"body":"people will have to do more than others."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":285.34,"endTime":288.3,"body":"Some people will find it more"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":285.34,"endTime":288.3,"body":"difficult than others to live"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":288.3,"endTime":292.3,"body":"within a sort of carbon, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":288.3,"endTime":292.3,"body":"within, within that carbon budget."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":292.6,"endTime":296.98,"body":"But it seems to me you're starting"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":292.6,"endTime":296.98,"body":"from a point of, you know, in principle"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":296.98,"endTime":299.74,"body":"it's fair, in practice, of course"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":296.98,"endTime":299.74,"body":"it will have different consequences"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":300.01,"endTime":304.38,"body":"depending on people's lives and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":300.01,"endTime":304.38,"body":"the societies they're living in."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":305.34,"endTime":305.63,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":305.69,"endTime":308.11,"body":"And is this I'll, I'll"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":305.69,"endTime":308.11,"body":"come to you in a sec."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":308.11,"endTime":310.95,"body":"Denise . I can see you're"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":308.11,"endTime":310.95,"body":"ready to jump in there."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":310.95,"endTime":313.59,"body":"Just, I, I, I just wanna"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":310.95,"endTime":313.59,"body":"clarify this again, Tina."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":314.33,"endTime":319.95,"body":"Is this the same idea as the EU"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":314.33,"endTime":319.95,"body":"ETS as in, as in carbon markets?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":320.18,"endTime":325.03,"body":"Just carbon markets give large"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":320.18,"endTime":325.03,"body":"companies carbon allowances"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":325.34,"endTime":328.55,"body":"that they can purchase or sell."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":329.85,"endTime":334.19,"body":"And, you know, they then decide"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":329.85,"endTime":334.19,"body":"how to, how to work with those,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":335.677,"endTime":339.68,"body":"allowances or permits that they"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":335.677,"endTime":339.68,"body":"have, and they can trade them."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":339.68,"endTime":342.72,"body":"They're day traded every"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":339.68,"endTime":342.72,"body":"day, about 4 billion a day."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":342.86,"endTime":346.04,"body":"Is that the same kind of idea just"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":342.86,"endTime":346.04,"body":"to scaled down to individuals?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":349.032,"endTime":350.392,"body":"I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":349.032,"endTime":350.392,"body":"I would say yes and no."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":350.572,"endTime":352.232,"body":"You know, I mean, yes."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":352.332,"endTime":355.552,"body":"In that the idea is the way you are"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":352.332,"endTime":355.552,"body":"going to reduce carbon emissions"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":355.552,"endTime":356.552,"body":"is you're going to set a tap."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":356.552,"endTime":359.192,"body":"You're going to set a cap,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":356.552,"endTime":359.192,"body":"which is gonna reduce over time."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":359.192,"endTime":361.832,"body":"You're going to distribute"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":359.192,"endTime":361.832,"body":"the allowances under that cap."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":361.832,"endTime":366.032,"body":"And there's going to be a way of, of,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":361.832,"endTime":366.032,"body":"of trading them or exchanging them."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":366.692,"endTime":370.672,"body":"But in other ways, it's really quite"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":366.692,"endTime":370.672,"body":"different because the way that EU ETS has"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":370.672,"endTime":376.924,"body":"worked up, up to now is mostly around,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":370.672,"endTime":376.924,"body":"It's a sort of grandfathering system."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":377.064,"endTime":380.284,"body":"So depending on the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":377.064,"endTime":380.284,"body":"companies get given allowances"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":380.284,"endTime":383.644,"body":"depending on what their current,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":380.284,"endTime":383.644,"body":"you know, carbon emissions were."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":384.104,"endTime":388.564,"body":"And know, it, it's quite well"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":384.104,"endTime":388.564,"body":"known that the EU ETS, certainly"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":388.564,"endTime":391.364,"body":"in earlier phases, there was a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":388.564,"endTime":391.364,"body":"lot of so-called hot air, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":391.844,"endTime":393.484,"body":"emissions that was somewhat notional."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":393.714,"endTime":397.564,"body":"There's a lot of debate as to how"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":393.714,"endTime":397.564,"body":"effective the scheme has really been"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":397.584,"endTime":402.044,"body":"in terms of driving investment into low"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":397.584,"endTime":402.044,"body":"carbon energy and low carbon options."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":402.104,"endTime":408.359,"body":"So I think, I'm a bit reluctant to draw,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":402.104,"endTime":408.359,"body":"draw a comparison with that because"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":408.359,"endTime":412.279,"body":"this is fundamentally about engaging"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":408.359,"endTime":412.279,"body":"people with the climate issue and it's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":412.279,"endTime":416.814,"body":"saying, It's not all your responsibility,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":412.279,"endTime":416.814,"body":"but you have got some responsibility"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":416.834,"endTime":419.454,"body":"and we're gonna give you more"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":416.834,"endTime":419.454,"body":"information about your carbon emissions."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":419.704,"endTime":422.774,"body":"We're going to set a social norm"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":419.704,"endTime":422.774,"body":"around what's normal, what's normal"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":422.874,"endTime":427.414,"body":"in terms of consumption and sort"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":422.874,"endTime":427.414,"body":"of high carbon behaviors, and how"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":427.414,"endTime":428.814,"body":"those have got to change over time."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":429.154,"endTime":431.974,"body":"And yes, there will be a price"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":429.154,"endTime":431.974,"body":"associated with that because there"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":431.974,"endTime":434.774,"body":"has to be some buying and selling"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":431.974,"endTime":434.774,"body":"because people's emissions are"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":434.774,"endTime":436.054,"body":"so very different at the moment."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":436.194,"endTime":439.054,"body":"If you didn't allow any"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":436.194,"endTime":439.054,"body":"trading, it'd be very hard to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":439.114,"endTime":440.654,"body":"set a cap that was meaningful."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":442.582,"endTime":446.162,"body":"But I, I feel it's, it's a much"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":442.582,"endTime":446.162,"body":"more social, it's much more"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":446.252,"endTime":450.122,"body":"collective than something like the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":446.252,"endTime":450.122,"body":"EU ETS and the market bit is only"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":450.122,"endTime":451.602,"body":"there as a sort of side effect."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":451.602,"endTime":453.362,"body":"That's not fundamentally what it's about."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":454.877,"endTime":455.567,"body":"Okay, Denise."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":456.687,"endTime":458.097,"body":"Yeah, I like it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":458.217,"endTime":463.537,"body":"I guess from the perspective of a"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":458.217,"endTime":463.537,"body":"consumer as well, so, and I think, and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":463.537,"endTime":467.577,"body":"a lot of people probably can relate"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":463.537,"endTime":467.577,"body":"to this as a greenie, you spend a lot"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":467.577,"endTime":472.017,"body":"of your time either feeling hugely"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":467.577,"endTime":472.017,"body":"guilty, you know, for what you are"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":472.017,"endTime":476.297,"body":"consuming, and seethingly resentful that"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":472.017,"endTime":476.297,"body":"other people who don't seem to care."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":476.982,"endTime":480.122,"body":"You know, so can at a barbecue,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":476.982,"endTime":480.122,"body":"everyone's stuffing their face with"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":480.122,"endTime":483.402,"body":"beef burgers and you are looking on"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":480.122,"endTime":483.402,"body":"yearningly with, with your bean burger."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":483.942,"endTime":486.662,"body":"Or they've come back from the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":483.942,"endTime":486.662,"body":"Maldives, you know, I want to go"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":486.682,"endTime":489.722,"body":"before it sinks and you come back"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":486.682,"endTime":489.722,"body":"from your walking holiday in the lake"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":489.882,"endTime":491.322,"body":"District, which was very nice actually."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":491.382,"endTime":494.442,"body":"But but do you know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":494.642,"endTime":498.642,"body":"I think we feel that what we"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":494.642,"endTime":498.642,"body":"can do won't make a difference."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":498.642,"endTime":502.122,"body":"And if we try and do something,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":498.642,"endTime":502.122,"body":"we are kind of constantly in that"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":502.122,"endTime":507.655,"body":"tension of you kind of taxing my green"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":502.122,"endTime":507.655,"body":"conscience you know if we do carbon"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":507.725,"endTime":512.015,"body":"offsets, which are voluntary, and this"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":507.725,"endTime":512.015,"body":"idea of a personal carbon allowance,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":512.115,"endTime":513.775,"body":"it just strikes me as so fair."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":514.315,"endTime":517.655,"body":"You've all got your own allowance"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":514.315,"endTime":517.655,"body":"and you can then adjust it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":518.515,"endTime":518.735,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":518.795,"endTime":523.295,"body":"So you can think, okay, I've got a dog,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":518.795,"endTime":523.295,"body":"you know, that uses a lot of pet food."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":523.375,"endTime":527.255,"body":"I can go to insect based pet food and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":523.375,"endTime":527.255,"body":"then I can allow myself your beef burger."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":527.395,"endTime":530.72,"body":"Or you can make your own"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":527.395,"endTime":530.72,"body":"trade offs, knowing it's fair."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":530.89,"endTime":535.97,"body":"But Pretty well everyone I know either"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":530.89,"endTime":535.97,"body":"doesn't make any changes 'cause they"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":535.97,"endTime":537.33,"body":"think, what difference can I make?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":537.71,"endTime":540.77,"body":"Or they do and feel resentful"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":537.71,"endTime":540.77,"body":"or they don't and feel guilty."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":541.31,"endTime":545.09,"body":"And none of those are nice"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":541.31,"endTime":545.09,"body":"places to be psychologically."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":545.39,"endTime":548.25,"body":"And none of them really, you know,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":545.39,"endTime":548.25,"body":"very few of them help the planet."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":549.43,"endTime":554.29,"body":"So I do like personal carbon allowances"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":549.43,"endTime":554.29,"body":"'cause I think it's really fair and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":554.975,"endTime":559.595,"body":"by making people responsible for their"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":554.975,"endTime":559.595,"body":"own carbon consumption, you then give"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":559.835,"endTime":561.675,"body":"businesses an incentive to invest."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":562.415,"endTime":567.095,"body":"So there's so much technology we could"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":562.415,"endTime":567.095,"body":"be investing in, and there's so many"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":567.095,"endTime":571.055,"body":"different alternatives such as, you"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":567.095,"endTime":571.055,"body":"know, repairing or sharing economy."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":571.435,"endTime":575.075,"body":"We, you know, on demand"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":571.435,"endTime":575.075,"body":"transport, great public transport."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":575.785,"endTime":579.035,"body":"It's never really gonna take"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":575.785,"endTime":579.035,"body":"off because it's always more"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":579.035,"endTime":580.435,"body":"convenient to have your own car."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":581.07,"endTime":585.56,"body":"Whereas if you can really get"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":581.07,"endTime":585.56,"body":"rewarded for ditching that  and going"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":585.56,"endTime":589.08,"body":"for public transport, suddenly the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":585.56,"endTime":589.08,"body":"service will become so much better."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":589.3,"endTime":594.12,"body":"So for me, it's the spillover"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":589.3,"endTime":594.12,"body":"effects that I think could be really"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":594.12,"endTime":598.92,"body":"transformative in driving investment"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":594.12,"endTime":598.92,"body":"into low carbon products and services."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":600.81,"endTime":601.1,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":602.56,"endTime":610.214,"body":"The idea of the personal carbon"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":602.56,"endTime":610.214,"body":"footprint is something that was, if"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":610.214,"endTime":617.414,"body":"I read correctly, invented by BP back"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":610.214,"endTime":617.414,"body":"in the day to kind of make us feel"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":617.524,"endTime":623.569,"body":"responsible and divert attention away"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":617.524,"endTime":623.569,"body":"from BP's responsibility or the fossil"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":623.639,"endTime":626.929,"body":"fuel company's responsibility by,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":623.639,"endTime":626.929,"body":"yeah, by making us feel responsible."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":626.929,"endTime":630.969,"body":"And in fact, in a lot of cases"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":626.929,"endTime":630.969,"body":"when they did that, there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":630.969,"endTime":633.089,"body":"wasn't much alternative anyway."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":633.749,"endTime":635.769,"body":"So I know there are more alternatives now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":635.789,"endTime":638.809,"body":"You have EVs now, which weren't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":635.789,"endTime":638.809,"body":"a thing back when the idea of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":638.969,"endTime":640.369,"body":"personal carbon footprint was invented."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":640.469,"endTime":642.169,"body":"You know, you, you have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":640.469,"endTime":642.169,"body":"lots of things now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":642.169,"endTime":644.449,"body":"Solar is a lot cheaper now, et"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":642.169,"endTime":644.449,"body":"cetera, et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":644.469,"endTime":647.169,"body":"But is this more of that?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":676.869,"endTime":680.249,"body":"I'd say it's the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":676.869,"endTime":680.249,"body":"opposite because it's systemic."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":680.9490000000001,"endTime":686.009,"body":"If you just had personal carbon"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":680.9490000000001,"endTime":686.009,"body":"offsetting, voluntary, then yes, but by"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":686.009,"endTime":690.9820000000001,"body":"giving a personal carbon allowance that"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":686.009,"endTime":690.9820000000001,"body":"you have to live within, it's a systemic"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":691.422,"endTime":693.072,"body":"solution that applies to everybody."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":693.4920000000001,"endTime":697.8820000000001,"body":"So you said you were gonna ask"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":693.4920000000001,"endTime":697.8820000000001,"body":"provocative questions, Tom, but"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":697.952,"endTime":699.8420000000001,"body":"I don't, I would not say so."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":699.8420000000001,"endTime":703.0820000000001,"body":"This is a systemic solution"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":699.8420000000001,"endTime":703.0820000000001,"body":"that will apply society-wide."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":703.192,"endTime":707.6220000000001,"body":"It's so, it's a systemic solution"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":703.192,"endTime":707.6220000000001,"body":"that incorporates all individuals."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":708.392,"endTime":708.572,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":708.572,"endTime":712.802,"body":"Yeah I mean that, that BP thing, I"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":708.572,"endTime":712.802,"body":"think, I mean, I've, I've tried to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":712.802,"endTime":717.0020000000001,"body":"follow this, this argument back about"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":712.802,"endTime":717.0020000000001,"body":"oh BP invented carbon footprints and,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":717.182,"endTime":718.7620000000001,"body":"and I don't think it's true actually."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":719.0020000000001,"endTime":723.5970000000001,"body":"I mean, yes, they use that sort of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":719.0020000000001,"endTime":723.5970000000001,"body":"language quite early, but I don't"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":723.5970000000001,"endTime":726.397,"body":"think that's true, and I know it's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":723.5970000000001,"endTime":726.397,"body":"a, an argument that some sort of US"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":726.417,"endTime":730.557,"body":"environmentalists have, have picked up"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":726.417,"endTime":730.557,"body":"to try and sort of reflect back onto"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":730.557,"endTime":734.6370000000001,"body":"saying, well, actually we need low carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":730.557,"endTime":734.6370000000001,"body":"structures and infrastructure in place."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":734.657,"endTime":738.517,"body":"And it's, it's unfair to put all the,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":734.657,"endTime":738.517,"body":"you know, responsibility on individuals"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":738.517,"endTime":742.7170000000001,"body":"and I totally agree with that, but I"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":738.517,"endTime":742.7170000000001,"body":"don't think it's right to say that a) BP"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":742.917,"endTime":746.8370000000001,"body":"invented it and it's all a sort of, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":742.917,"endTime":746.8370000000001,"body":"know, it's a sort of greenwashing, it's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":746.8370000000001,"endTime":748.557,"body":"a sort of misdirection sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":748.677,"endTime":750.3570000000001,"body":"I don't, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":748.677,"endTime":750.3570000000001,"body":"that's the case at all."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":750.3670000000001,"endTime":754.9200000000001,"body":"There was, you know, there was quite"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":750.3670000000001,"endTime":754.9200000000001,"body":"a big phase of, of a lot of reflection"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":754.9200000000001,"endTime":756.12,"body":"on personal carbon footprints."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":756.12,"endTime":757.9200000000001,"body":"You can see that if you sort"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":756.12,"endTime":757.9200000000001,"body":"of look in the media and look"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":757.9200000000001,"endTime":758.6,"body":"at the number of stories."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":758.6,"endTime":761.4000000000001,"body":"And then it sort of went away a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":758.6,"endTime":761.4000000000001,"body":"bit and it's kind of coming back a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":761.4000000000001,"endTime":764.6,"body":"bit again now actually that sort of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":761.4000000000001,"endTime":764.6,"body":"reflection back onto the personal."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":764.62,"endTime":768.2,"body":"And I think that's partly because"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":764.62,"endTime":768.2,"body":"we've understood that some choices"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":768.5400000000001,"endTime":770.12,"body":"can only be made by individuals."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":770.7,"endTime":775.2800000000001,"body":"So like, you know, you choose how"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":770.7,"endTime":775.2800000000001,"body":"far and whether you're going to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":775.2800000000001,"endTime":778.6,"body":"fly for your holiday and that has a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":775.2800000000001,"endTime":778.6,"body":"big carbon and, and climate effect."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":779.3670000000001,"endTime":781.99,"body":"Whereas other things, of course, it's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":779.3670000000001,"endTime":781.99,"body":"about what the government invests in."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":781.99,"endTime":785.62,"body":"If there's no investment in in public"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":781.99,"endTime":785.62,"body":"transport and you live in the countryside"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":785.6400000000001,"endTime":788.94,"body":"and you your job's somewhere else,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":785.6400000000001,"endTime":788.94,"body":"then yeah, maybe you are a bit stuck."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":789.0,"endTime":792.3000000000001,"body":"So it's, you know, we need,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":789.0,"endTime":792.3000000000001,"body":"clearly we need to look at both."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":792.32,"endTime":796.86,"body":"And if a government introduced or a city"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":792.32,"endTime":796.86,"body":"introduced personal carbon allowances,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":797.2600000000001,"endTime":800.74,"body":"I mean, part of the demands from the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":797.2600000000001,"endTime":800.74,"body":"citizenry would be, well, well, where"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":800.74,"endTime":802.22,"body":"are our low carbon options then?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":802.4000000000001,"endTime":803.57,"body":"How are we going to do this?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":803.6700000000001,"endTime":803.7600000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":803.9150000000001,"endTime":804.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":804.1,"endTime":808.45,"body":"Where are you investing in"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":804.1,"endTime":808.45,"body":"rail services or, you know, where are you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":808.45,"endTime":812.61,"body":"investing in sort of cheaper insulation or"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":808.45,"endTime":812.61,"body":"whatever it is that people need to enable"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":812.61,"endTime":813.85,"body":"them to make the right set of choices?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":814.07,"endTime":819.37,"body":"So I don't, I'm I'm reluctant to go on the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":814.07,"endTime":819.37,"body":"sort of, it's either all, it's all sort"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":819.37,"endTime":820.7700000000001,"body":"of infrastructure or it's all personal."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":820.85,"endTime":824.37,"body":"I mean, clearly it's, it's both"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":820.85,"endTime":824.37,"body":"to, to do what we need to do."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":826.105,"endTime":826.3950000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":826.815,"endTime":834.7750000000001,"body":"How Practical is this idea, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":826.815,"endTime":834.7750000000001,"body":"how would you measure, I mean, to your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":834.8850000000001,"endTime":841.6120000000001,"body":"point, Denise, about the insect dog food"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":834.8850000000001,"endTime":841.6120000000001,"body":"versus dog food based on chicken versus"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":841.9820000000001,"endTime":846.2520000000001,"body":"based on salmon or based on beef and I,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":841.9820000000001,"endTime":846.2520000000001,"body":"I, I, I just picked those out because I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":846.2520000000001,"endTime":850.4920000000001,"body":"have a couple of dogs and, you know, I,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":846.2520000000001,"endTime":850.4920000000001,"body":"I do look at the ingredients of them,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":851.2420000000001,"endTime":855.827,"body":"but nowhere on the packaging does it"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":851.2420000000001,"endTime":855.827,"body":"say the carbon footprint of any of them."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":855.8870000000001,"endTime":856.947,"body":"In fact, that's an issue."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":857.0070000000001,"endTime":859.907,"body":"That's a completely separate issue"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":857.0070000000001,"endTime":859.907,"body":"altogether, which we could have another"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":859.927,"endTime":863.5870000000001,"body":"entire podcast on because, and I've, I've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":859.927,"endTime":863.5870000000001,"body":"mentioned this on the podcast a few times."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":864.167,"endTime":869.2600000000001,"body":"One of the things I've done is I've given"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":864.167,"endTime":869.2600000000001,"body":"up dairy and, and so I use, oat milk,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":869.36,"endTime":871.62,"body":"oatley oat milk in my, in my coffee."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":872.1600000000001,"endTime":879.47,"body":"And that says, on the, on the carton of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":872.1600000000001,"endTime":879.47,"body":"Oatley that it's 45 grams, CO2 per liter"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":880.0500000000001,"endTime":883.5500000000001,"body":"of Oatley oat milk, which is great or not."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":883.8800000000001,"endTime":887.35,"body":"Maybe it's terrible, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":883.8800000000001,"endTime":887.35,"body":"because no other milk gives me"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":887.49,"endTime":888.87,"body":"the carbon footprint of a liter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":889.25,"endTime":891.83,"body":"So, you know, it could be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":889.25,"endTime":891.83,"body":"horrendous or it could be fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":892.6500000000001,"endTime":898.335,"body":"And so, you know, to to that point,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":892.6500000000001,"endTime":898.335,"body":"how practical is this to measure"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":898.4350000000001,"endTime":902.7750000000001,"body":"the carbon footprint of absolutely"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":898.4350000000001,"endTime":902.7750000000001,"body":"everything we do, track that, report"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":902.7750000000001,"endTime":906.9350000000001,"body":"it, and then have that tied against"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":902.7750000000001,"endTime":906.9350000000001,"body":"our personal carbon footprint."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":907.58,"endTime":910.6800000000001,"body":"Didn't Tesco say they were"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":907.58,"endTime":910.6800000000001,"body":"gonna carbon footprint all their products"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":910.7600000000001,"endTime":914.84,"body":"a few years ago, and I think this was an"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":910.7600000000001,"endTime":914.84,"body":"issue way back when the idea was first"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":915.0300000000001,"endTime":917.48,"body":"floated, oh, in the early noughties."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":917.82,"endTime":921.72,"body":"We didn't yet have that technology,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":917.82,"endTime":921.72,"body":"but we've come a long way since then."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":921.98,"endTime":926.6800000000001,"body":"And there's loads of apps already that"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":921.98,"endTime":926.6800000000001,"body":"enable you to track carbon footprints."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":926.7600000000001,"endTime":929.8800000000001,"body":"Tina you probably know, know more"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":926.7600000000001,"endTime":929.8800000000001,"body":"about what's the latest on this."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":931.1400000000001,"endTime":934.23,"body":"Well, I was quite, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":931.1400000000001,"endTime":934.23,"body":"well I think there's two answers to that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":934.5100000000001,"endTime":937.83,"body":"I mean, but, but one answer on that,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":934.5100000000001,"endTime":937.83,"body":"actually listening to one of your"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":937.83,"endTime":939.9100000000001,"body":"earlier podcasts, the Commons one."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":940.58,"endTime":943.7800000000001,"body":"I mean, they, she, the, the, the founder"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":940.58,"endTime":943.7800000000001,"body":"there was making quite an interesting"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":944.0200000000001,"endTime":947.74,"body":"argument that we can't be, we are not a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":944.0200000000001,"endTime":947.74,"body":"hundred percent accurate if we're trying"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":947.74,"endTime":952.1800000000001,"body":"to add carbon emissions to products, but"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":947.74,"endTime":952.1800000000001,"body":"we can be 80% accurate and maybe that's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":952.1800000000001,"endTime":953.74,"body":"good enough, which is quite interesting."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":953.74,"endTime":956.82,"body":"And quite a lot of these sort of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":953.74,"endTime":956.82,"body":"expenditure apps which try to link"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":956.82,"endTime":959.1400000000001,"body":"to carbon take that kind of approach."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":959.24,"endTime":963.3100000000001,"body":"So that's one thing saying we don't"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":959.24,"endTime":963.3100000000001,"body":"need the precision of carbon labeling on"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":963.3100000000001,"endTime":966.6700000000001,"body":"products at the individual level 'cause"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":963.3100000000001,"endTime":966.6700000000001,"body":"that's incredibly information intensive."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":966.7700000000001,"endTime":969.8870000000001,"body":"And in fact, Tesco gave up, and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":966.7700000000001,"endTime":969.8870000000001,"body":"I think they ended up carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":969.8870000000001,"endTime":973.0870000000001,"body":"labeling about 200 products and they"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":969.8870000000001,"endTime":973.0870000000001,"body":"thought they were gonna do 40,000."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":973.952,"endTime":975.052,"body":"So, I mean, it's difficult."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":975.0820000000001,"endTime":978.1320000000001,"body":"It's difficult and global supply chains"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":975.0820000000001,"endTime":978.1320000000001,"body":"keep changing and blah, blah, blah."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":978.152,"endTime":979.932,"body":"So it's, it's really difficult."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":980.452,"endTime":983.3320000000001,"body":"I mean, the other answer is people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":980.452,"endTime":983.3320000000001,"body":"like me would say, well, why don't"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":983.3320000000001,"endTime":984.292,"body":"we start with the easy stuff?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":984.392,"endTime":987.032,"body":"So start with household energy use"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":984.392,"endTime":987.032,"body":"and transport, where actually it's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":987.032,"endTime":989.9720000000001,"body":"very easy to know what the carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":987.032,"endTime":989.9720000000001,"body":"impact of a particular journey is,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":989.9720000000001,"endTime":994.3720000000001,"body":"or per kiloWatt hour of a particular"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":989.9720000000001,"endTime":994.3720000000001,"body":"fuel, and then build out from that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":994.5920000000001,"endTime":996.932,"body":"So start with the stuff where"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":994.5920000000001,"endTime":996.932,"body":"it's easy and then get onto"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":996.952,"endTime":998.1320000000001,"body":"the other choices as well."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":998.312,"endTime":1001.052,"body":"So there's, you know, two"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":998.312,"endTime":1001.052,"body":"approaches to thinking about it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1001.6220000000001,"endTime":1002.702,"body":"Learning by, by doing."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1002.702,"endTime":1003.822,"body":"They call it, don't they?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1007.687,"endTime":1012.7570000000001,"body":"Isn't there as well the,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1007.687,"endTime":1012.7570000000001,"body":"the whole question around privacy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1013.3370000000001,"endTime":1016.937,"body":"and, is, is that a concern, do you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1013.3370000000001,"endTime":1016.937,"body":"think, for something like this?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1018.817,"endTime":1020.947,"body":"Well, I, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1018.817,"endTime":1020.947,"body":"I think it would be your data"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1021.287,"endTime":1024.802,"body":"and nobody else would know."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1024.942,"endTime":1027.602,"body":"So you, you would have some"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1024.942,"endTime":1027.602,"body":"sort of carbon account, right?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1027.602,"endTime":1030.642,"body":"Which you would operate, I guess, via"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1027.602,"endTime":1030.642,"body":"your mobile phone for nearly everybody."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1030.642,"endTime":1032.282,"body":"That's how they would choose to do it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1032.342,"endTime":1036.452,"body":"But, I mean, that data would"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1032.342,"endTime":1036.452,"body":"only be show shared with people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1036.472,"endTime":1037.772,"body":"you wanted to share it with."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1038.272,"endTime":1041.252,"body":"And the only thing you would need to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1038.272,"endTime":1041.252,"body":"do, let's say you'd run out of carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1041.362,"endTime":1044.972,"body":"allowance that year and you needed to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1041.362,"endTime":1044.972,"body":"pay an energy bill, well then you'd"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1044.972,"endTime":1048.212,"body":"have to buy extra allowances from"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1044.972,"endTime":1048.212,"body":"somewhere and probably your energy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1048.212,"endTime":1051.732,"body":"company would sell them to you having"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1048.212,"endTime":1051.732,"body":"bought them on the market from, from"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1051.732,"endTime":1053.5720000000001,"body":"sort of low carbon emitting people."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1054.352,"endTime":1059.732,"body":"So I don't think it involves sharing a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1054.352,"endTime":1059.732,"body":"lot of personal information with anybody."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1061.7820000000002,"endTime":1062.0720000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1062.182,"endTime":1062.472,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1062.582,"endTime":1062.872,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1064.422,"endTime":1070.0320000000002,"body":"What about people's perceptions"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1064.422,"endTime":1070.0320000000002,"body":"of personal carbon allowances?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1070.592,"endTime":1076.135,"body":"I can see, you know, just from reading"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1070.592,"endTime":1076.135,"body":"the media and reading, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1076.295,"endTime":1079.655,"body":"comments on Twitter or LinkedIn posts."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1080.175,"endTime":1086.4550000000002,"body":"A lot of people are already skeptical,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1080.175,"endTime":1086.4550000000002,"body":"more so in the US of the idea of climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1086.4550000000002,"endTime":1094.935,"body":"change anyway, trying to foist something"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1086.4550000000002,"endTime":1094.935,"body":"like this on top of people, I, I, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1094.935,"endTime":1097.655,"body":"wonder how that would be perceived."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1098.405,"endTime":1100.345,"body":"It depends how"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1098.405,"endTime":1100.345,"body":"scared you are, doesn't it?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1101.372,"endTime":1107.152,"body":"So, I mean, I'm doing a project on climate"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1101.372,"endTime":1107.152,"body":"anxiety at the moment, and the statistics"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1107.152,"endTime":1109.672,"body":"about climate anxiety are staggering."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1110.352,"endTime":1113.962,"body":"I mean, the majority of young"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1110.352,"endTime":1113.962,"body":"people explicitly have climate"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1114.0720000000001,"endTime":1117.362,"body":"anxiety now, and many of them have"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1114.0720000000001,"endTime":1117.362,"body":"this sort of suppressed dread."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1118.112,"endTime":1122.162,"body":"Many, it was a statistic and then my own,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1118.112,"endTime":1122.162,"body":"my own son sort of came up with something,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1122.622,"endTime":1124.0420000000001,"body":"you know, worried about having children."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1125.262,"endTime":1130.075,"body":"So once you're scared enough,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1125.262,"endTime":1130.075,"body":"whether or not you can, you know,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1130.795,"endTime":1135.515,"body":"continue your lifestyle regardless,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1130.795,"endTime":1135.515,"body":"becomes less important than can I"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1135.7150000000001,"endTime":1139.9550000000002,"body":"actually continue to exist in this"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1135.7150000000001,"endTime":1139.9550000000002,"body":"planet in a sustainable, safe way."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1140.565,"endTime":1143.4650000000001,"body":"So I, I think it goes hand in"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1140.565,"endTime":1143.4650000000001,"body":"hand with awareness, and I think"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1143.4650000000001,"endTime":1147.025,"body":"Europe is ahead of the curve than"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1143.4650000000001,"endTime":1147.025,"body":"America in terms of awareness."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1147.855,"endTime":1152.105,"body":"Solutions that are systemic in nature"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1147.855,"endTime":1152.105,"body":"are gonna appeal to more collectivist"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1152.105,"endTime":1154.7050000000002,"body":"cultures than individualistic cultures."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1154.7050000000002,"endTime":1157.905,"body":"So America's very individualistic"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1154.7050000000002,"endTime":1157.905,"body":"more so than Europe."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1158.405,"endTime":1164.26,"body":"So, in a way I can see it probably"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1158.405,"endTime":1164.26,"body":"being tested out in other countries to"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1164.26,"endTime":1170.06,"body":"gain some traction,  perhaps, and some"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1164.26,"endTime":1170.06,"body":"credibility before we can hope it might"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1170.06,"endTime":1173.42,"body":"take off in the country where actually"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1170.06,"endTime":1173.42,"body":"it would have the most impact of all."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1174.087,"endTime":1174.977,"body":"Tina, what do you think?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1175.977,"endTime":1177.827,"body":"Yeah, no, I think,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1175.977,"endTime":1177.827,"body":"I think that's a good point."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1177.977,"endTime":1182.267,"body":"It's, it's, I mean we with some other"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1177.977,"endTime":1182.267,"body":"authors, we sort of wrote a piece and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1182.267,"endTime":1187.267,"body":"where we were sort of arguing that the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1182.267,"endTime":1187.267,"body":"sort of country where it could would"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1187.267,"endTime":1190.307,"body":"be most likely to succeed will be a)"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1187.267,"endTime":1190.307,"body":"well, you know, a sort of obviously"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1190.307,"endTime":1194.767,"body":"wealthy countries, ones with sort of,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1190.307,"endTime":1194.767,"body":"that are highly, you know, where mobile"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1194.767,"endTime":1197.847,"body":"phones and information technology,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1194.767,"endTime":1197.847,"body":"highly digitalized countries where"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1197.847,"endTime":1200.887,"body":"there's very good information systems"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1197.847,"endTime":1200.887,"body":"that people have got access to that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1200.887,"endTime":1203.487,"body":"And also where there's a high"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1200.887,"endTime":1203.487,"body":"degree of trust in government."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1204.342,"endTime":1207.902,"body":"So we've been speaking to a colleague"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1204.342,"endTime":1207.902,"body":"from Singapore and he keeps saying, well,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1208.102,"endTime":1211.142,"body":"Singapore would be ideal because there's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1208.102,"endTime":1211.142,"body":"a high level of trust in government."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1211.142,"endTime":1215.662,"body":"People are part of a sort of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1211.142,"endTime":1215.662,"body":"community and you know, people are"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1215.662,"endTime":1221.559,"body":"live highly digitalized, quantified"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1215.662,"endTime":1221.559,"body":"lives and, he felt that that would"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1221.559,"endTime":1224.719,"body":"be the sort of society where you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1221.559,"endTime":1224.719,"body":"could certainly trial aspects of it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1224.719,"endTime":1227.679,"body":"That it would be a sort of policy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1224.719,"endTime":1227.679,"body":"that would fit with the kind of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1228.0990000000002,"endTime":1229.839,"body":"the way things are done nationally."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1229.839,"endTime":1232.039,"body":"Whereas it's, I totally agree with Denise."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1232.1190000000001,"endTime":1233.8790000000001,"body":"I mean, the US is not"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1232.1190000000001,"endTime":1233.8790000000001,"body":"where you'd start it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1233.989,"endTime":1237.3490000000002,"body":"That, that that is for sure, and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1233.989,"endTime":1237.3490000000002,"body":"maybe it wouldn't be necessary."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1237.469,"endTime":1240.8690000000001,"body":"I mean, the question is, is it the right"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1237.469,"endTime":1240.8690000000001,"body":"sort of policy for a particular country?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1240.929,"endTime":1244.1090000000002,"body":"In the UK, we've done really well"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1240.929,"endTime":1244.1090000000002,"body":"at reducing our carbon emissions"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1244.1090000000002,"endTime":1248.589,"body":"nationally, but we are not on track"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1244.1090000000002,"endTime":1248.589,"body":"to meet our net zero goal by 2050."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1248.689,"endTime":1249.789,"body":"So things have got to change."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1249.919,"endTime":1253.3490000000002,"body":"We've got to find mechanisms"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1249.919,"endTime":1253.3490000000002,"body":"to help us adopt lower carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1253.589,"endTime":1255.6290000000001,"body":"technologies, lower carbon lifestyles."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1256.6390000000001,"endTime":1259.419,"body":"And some of those can just only focus"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1256.6390000000001,"endTime":1259.419,"body":"on the technology, but some of them"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1259.419,"endTime":1262.939,"body":"have gotta focus on the people and the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1259.419,"endTime":1262.939,"body":"communities and the ways of doing things."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1262.939,"endTime":1266.219,"body":"There are things we're not going to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1262.939,"endTime":1266.219,"body":"do, you know, the things thinking about"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1266.6190000000001,"endTime":1268.1390000000001,"body":"sufficiency as well as efficiency."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1268.239,"endTime":1272.259,"body":"So, you know, we can't just keep"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1268.239,"endTime":1272.259,"body":"doing things the way we've done."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1272.529,"endTime":1277.8590000000002,"body":"It's, it's taken us so far, but, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1272.529,"endTime":1277.8590000000002,"body":"know, we are not, we are not on track to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1277.8590000000002,"endTime":1279.179,"body":"get where we need to be at the moment."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1279.279,"endTime":1282.0990000000002,"body":"And we've got to have sort of"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1279.279,"endTime":1282.0990000000002,"body":"grown up conversations about that."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1282.839,"endTime":1283.1290000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1283.3990000000001,"endTime":1283.689,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1285.454,"endTime":1289.7340000000002,"body":"do you see any politician who you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1285.454,"endTime":1289.7340000000002,"body":"think would grasp that nettle?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1291.759,"endTime":1295.082,"body":"I wish David"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1291.759,"endTime":1295.082,"body":"Milaband, was back in politics."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1295.422,"endTime":1296.722,"body":"He was really on it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1297.5520000000001,"endTime":1299.332,"body":"Maybe he could be persuaded too."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1299.332,"endTime":1303.222,"body":"I think he was one of the original"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1299.332,"endTime":1303.222,"body":"supporters of it, wasn't he, Tina?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1303.222,"endTime":1303.682,"body":"He was."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1303.682,"endTime":1304.4170000000001,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1304.702,"endTime":1304.992,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1306.0320000000002,"endTime":1308.752,"body":"I mean that, that is a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1306.0320000000002,"endTime":1308.752,"body":"good question about the politics of it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1308.852,"endTime":1312.872,"body":"And certainly the first time when,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1308.852,"endTime":1312.872,"body":"when, back in the noughties when we"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1312.872,"endTime":1316.512,"body":"were trying to, myself and colleagues"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1312.872,"endTime":1316.512,"body":"were trying to talk to people about it"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1316.5320000000002,"endTime":1320.659,"body":"and, you know, we were talking to, in,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1316.5320000000002,"endTime":1320.659,"body":"in fact, NGOs as well, sort of like"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1320.659,"endTime":1323.6190000000001,"body":"Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1320.659,"endTime":1323.6190000000001,"body":"talking to people about this idea and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1323.6190000000001,"endTime":1326.919,"body":"was it, did they think it was a good,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1323.6190000000001,"endTime":1326.919,"body":"and, and some of them did think it was"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1326.919,"endTime":1330.439,"body":"good, and they also said, yeah, but it's,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1326.919,"endTime":1330.439,"body":"you know, it's really quite difficult."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1330.679,"endTime":1333.319,"body":"I mean, we're gonna stick to the things"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1330.679,"endTime":1333.319,"body":"that, you know, because obviously"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1333.319,"endTime":1337.739,"body":"there would be people who don't like"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1333.319,"endTime":1337.739,"body":"the idea and it, it, and it, it, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1337.739,"endTime":1341.259,"body":"know, it's, it, they, they thought it"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1337.739,"endTime":1341.259,"body":"would be a bit problematic, but, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1341.259,"endTime":1343.819,"body":"know, some of the things that make it"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1341.259,"endTime":1343.819,"body":"difficult aren't a problem anymore."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1343.999,"endTime":1346.459,"body":"So like the technology has"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1343.999,"endTime":1346.459,"body":"come along such a long way."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1346.459,"endTime":1348.819,"body":"You can't really argue that this"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1346.459,"endTime":1348.819,"body":"couldn't be done technically."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1349.534,"endTime":1352.714,"body":"It would be, you know, not very"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1349.534,"endTime":1352.714,"body":"difficult really to do technically and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1352.714,"endTime":1354.314,"body":"not very expensive to do technically."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1354.334,"endTime":1358.634,"body":"The question is, are we gonna"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1354.334,"endTime":1358.634,"body":"have a discussion about what kind"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1358.634,"endTime":1362.114,"body":"of changes we're going to make"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1358.634,"endTime":1362.114,"body":"and who's gonna make them or not?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1362.364,"endTime":1366.114,"body":"We're just gonna keep muddling through"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1362.364,"endTime":1366.114,"body":"and hope technology will save us."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1366.7540000000001,"endTime":1370.2740000000001,"body":"I mean, you know, it's done an all"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1366.7540000000001,"endTime":1370.2740000000001,"body":"right sort of job, but there's no"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1370.2740000000001,"endTime":1373.194,"body":"indication that that's gonna get"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1370.2740000000001,"endTime":1373.194,"body":"us as far as we need to get to."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1374.0040000000001,"endTime":1375.214,"body":"Sure, sure, sure, sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1375.714,"endTime":1379.169,"body":"And Denise, I mean, one of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1375.714,"endTime":1379.169,"body":"things you said was about getting"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1379.189,"endTime":1383.949,"body":"the word out because lots of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1379.189,"endTime":1383.949,"body":"people have, lots of particularly"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1384.009,"endTime":1386.3690000000001,"body":"younger people have eco anxieties."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1386.3890000000001,"endTime":1391.009,"body":"So how, how would we get the, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1386.3890000000001,"endTime":1391.009,"body":"word out about the, the importance"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1391.009,"endTime":1392.009,"body":"of doing something like this?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1392.8590000000002,"endTime":1395.269,"body":"Well, one of the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1392.8590000000002,"endTime":1395.269,"body":"things I've been involved in is the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1395.269,"endTime":1399.589,"body":"Green Stories Project, and the goal"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1395.269,"endTime":1399.589,"body":"there is to embed climate solutions"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1400.009,"endTime":1403.1490000000001,"body":"in books, films, plays, and so on."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1403.1490000000001,"endTime":1407.509,"body":"Because if you ask someone to read"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1403.1490000000001,"endTime":1407.509,"body":"a dry report on personal carbon"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1407.509,"endTime":1410.8690000000001,"body":"trading or you know, it is going"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1407.509,"endTime":1410.8690000000001,"body":"to, it is gonna be hard work."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1411.719,"endTime":1416.779,"body":"But if you embed it in a story, you can"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1411.719,"endTime":1416.779,"body":"see how it affects all the different"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1416.779,"endTime":1418.659,"body":"characters and say you can live it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1419.3590000000002,"endTime":1422.539,"body":"And it's actually a much more"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1419.3590000000002,"endTime":1422.539,"body":"engaging way to get the word out."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1422.6390000000001,"endTime":1428.9550000000002,"body":"So I've just, written a play, which is"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1422.6390000000001,"endTime":1428.9550000000002,"body":"based on my book, the Assassin, which"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1428.9550000000002,"endTime":1433.075,"body":"is one of the short stories in No More"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1428.9550000000002,"endTime":1433.075,"body":"Fairytales, Stories To Save Our Planet."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1433.255,"endTime":1437.4750000000001,"body":"And it imagines eight people in a citizens"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1433.255,"endTime":1437.4750000000001,"body":"assembly debating climate solutions."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1438.075,"endTime":1438.9750000000001,"body":"And then there's a murder."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1439.395,"endTime":1443.895,"body":"So you've got the whodunit, which is a"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1439.395,"endTime":1443.895,"body":"nice sort of bit to keep people engaged."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1444.4750000000001,"endTime":1447.419,"body":"But, one of the solutions is"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1444.4750000000001,"endTime":1447.419,"body":"personal carbon allowances."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1447.6390000000001,"endTime":1450.339,"body":"So you have the different"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1447.6390000000001,"endTime":1450.339,"body":"characters and they all come to"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1450.339,"endTime":1451.779,"body":"it with, with different issues."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1451.779,"endTime":1455.939,"body":"They're all different people, so one"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1451.779,"endTime":1455.939,"body":"of them, you know, who struggles with"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1455.939,"endTime":1457.259,"body":"money, who's gonna be better off?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1457.944,"endTime":1461.664,"body":"I think it was said that 71% of those"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1457.944,"endTime":1461.664,"body":"in lower income brackets would be better"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1461.684,"endTime":1466.664,"body":"off under personal carbon allowances You"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1461.684,"endTime":1466.664,"body":"know, the, the wealthy guy is less keen."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1467.017,"endTime":1469.6670000000001,"body":"The ones with climate anxiety are"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1467.017,"endTime":1469.6670000000001,"body":"like, I'll give up what I want."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1469.6670000000001,"endTime":1470.987,"body":"Just please take the fear away."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1471.067,"endTime":1471.787,"body":"I think this will help."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1472.367,"endTime":1474.627,"body":"So you can see everyone's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1472.367,"endTime":1474.627,"body":"got their own agenda."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1475.547,"endTime":1476.967,"body":"It would affect people in different ways."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1476.967,"endTime":1478.527,"body":"People are worried about different things."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1478.787,"endTime":1483.624,"body":"So, the play Murder In The Citizen's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1478.787,"endTime":1483.624,"body":"Jury and the story, The Assassin, and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1483.7240000000002,"endTime":1487.544,"body":"it comes up in quite a few stories in"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1483.7240000000002,"endTime":1487.544,"body":"No More Fairytales Stories To Save Our"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1487.544,"endTime":1489.064,"body":"Planet approached in different ways."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1489.844,"endTime":1494.184,"body":"So for me, that's one way to"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1489.844,"endTime":1494.184,"body":"engage the, the public in really"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1494.184,"endTime":1497.864,"body":"understanding it as it would affect"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1494.184,"endTime":1497.864,"body":"them, rather than understanding"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1497.864,"endTime":1499.384,"body":"it from an academic perspective."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1500.084,"endTime":1505.0040000000001,"body":"But I, I think it also needs to get"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1500.084,"endTime":1505.0040000000001,"body":"on the agenda of more politicians"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1505.0240000000001,"endTime":1509.587,"body":"and, and when I've spoken to them, not"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1505.0240000000001,"endTime":1509.587,"body":"many actually really understand it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1510.087,"endTime":1514.347,"body":"And if they do, they think, well,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1510.087,"endTime":1514.347,"body":"yes, this would be transformative,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1515.527,"endTime":1517.4270000000001,"body":"but is it politically palatable?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1517.487,"endTime":1521.107,"body":"But I think what they're"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1517.487,"endTime":1521.107,"body":"underestimating is the level of fear."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1521.107,"endTime":1521.1970000000001,"body":"right."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1522.037,"endTime":1525.5520000000001,"body":"So, even if people"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1522.037,"endTime":1525.5520000000001,"body":"aren't going on all about climate"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1525.5520000000001,"endTime":1529.352,"body":"change, climate change, I think there"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1525.5520000000001,"endTime":1529.352,"body":"is this subdue, you know, submerged"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1529.842,"endTime":1532.759,"body":"dread, and avoidance and denial."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1532.779,"endTime":1534.3590000000002,"body":"But we know there's something to avoid."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1534.459,"endTime":1536.559,"body":"We know there's something we"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1534.459,"endTime":1536.559,"body":"are not thinking about and it's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1536.559,"endTime":1537.839,"body":"the future 'cause it's scary."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1538.059,"endTime":1544.479,"body":"And I do think someone with some courage"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1538.059,"endTime":1544.479,"body":"and leadership to sell the idea might find"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1544.549,"endTime":1548.959,"body":"there's, you know, more poli, more public"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1544.549,"endTime":1548.959,"body":"approval than perhaps they, they realized."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1550.0990000000002,"endTime":1551.559,"body":"That'd They'd be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1550.0990000000002,"endTime":1551.559,"body":"pushing an open door, you think?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1552.339,"endTime":1554.779,"body":"I think so, I think"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1552.339,"endTime":1554.779,"body":"you've just gotta sell the idea and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1554.779,"endTime":1557.579,"body":"take some leadership on it, because"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1554.779,"endTime":1557.579,"body":"I think people think we want this"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1557.579,"endTime":1563.339,"body":"problem solved, and as long as we're"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1557.579,"endTime":1563.339,"body":"all in it together, I don't mind."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1563.759,"endTime":1568.779,"body":"But so many of the things are so"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1563.759,"endTime":1568.779,"body":"piecemeal and disconnected, this would"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1568.8590000000002,"endTime":1571.912,"body":"be transformative, across every level."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1571.972,"endTime":1575.372,"body":"It would steer business"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1571.972,"endTime":1575.372,"body":"towards sustainable products,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1575.592,"endTime":1577.172,"body":"it would transform society."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1577.232,"endTime":1581.2920000000001,"body":"So of course it's not going to be as"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1577.232,"endTime":1581.2920000000001,"body":"easy  and as straightforward as just"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1581.412,"endTime":1584.692,"body":"twiddling around with the tax rate,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1581.412,"endTime":1584.692,"body":"but the payoffs would be so much"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1584.692,"endTime":1588.092,"body":"greater and I think there might be"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1584.692,"endTime":1588.092,"body":"a great big breathing out of relief."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1588.5520000000001,"endTime":1591.972,"body":"Oh, we'll moan about it, but thank God"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1588.5520000000001,"endTime":1591.972,"body":"actually someone's doing something."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1593.277,"endTime":1593.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1593.757,"endTime":1594.487,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1595.847,"endTime":1599.4070000000002,"body":"I mean, the idea of Singapore"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1595.847,"endTime":1599.4070000000002,"body":"doing it, I can see."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1600.127,"endTime":1603.707,"body":"The government there has a lot more"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1600.127,"endTime":1603.707,"body":"control over people's lives than"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1603.707,"endTime":1604.987,"body":"most than many other governments."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1606.65,"endTime":1610.78,"body":"It's a tiny country though, , I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1606.65,"endTime":1610.78,"body":"mean, something like this needs to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1610.78,"endTime":1614.46,"body":"happen a lot more broadly than just"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1610.78,"endTime":1614.46,"body":"the city state of Singapore, no?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1616.0,"endTime":1616.69,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1616.8300000000002,"endTime":1621.175,"body":"And, and the question has always been"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1616.8300000000002,"endTime":1621.175,"body":"how would you, if you wanted to do this,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1621.315,"endTime":1623.055,"body":"how do you, how do you build the case?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1623.055,"endTime":1623.295,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1623.295,"endTime":1624.815,"body":"How'd you get the evidence to show that?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1625.015,"endTime":1626.6950000000002,"body":"Actually, we think it"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1625.015,"endTime":1626.6950000000002,"body":"would be really effective."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1626.895,"endTime":1629.855,"body":"'cause we think it gives people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1626.895,"endTime":1629.855,"body":"information, feedback, social norms,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1629.855,"endTime":1633.095,"body":"you know, all these kind of academic"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1629.855,"endTime":1633.095,"body":"theorizing around why this policy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1633.2350000000001,"endTime":1636.255,"body":"should be really powerful and a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1633.2350000000001,"endTime":1636.255,"body":"lot better than say a carbon tax"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1636.395,"endTime":1637.9750000000001,"body":"and a lot fairer than a carbon tax."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1638.035,"endTime":1640.335,"body":"But, but we don't know for certain."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1640.4750000000001,"endTime":1644.6950000000002,"body":"And so, know, one way is if somewhere"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1640.4750000000001,"endTime":1644.6950000000002,"body":"like Singapore would adopt it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1644.992,"endTime":1649.684,"body":"Another way might be to say, okay, let's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1644.992,"endTime":1649.684,"body":"let's use this just for one sector."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1649.784,"endTime":1653.0040000000001,"body":"So people have talked quite a lot"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1649.784,"endTime":1653.0040000000001,"body":"about flying and the idea of having,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1653.314,"endTime":1657.454,"body":"something like a frequent flyer levy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1653.314,"endTime":1657.454,"body":"or you could go, or a, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1657.454,"endTime":1661.094,"body":"flying allowance rather, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1657.454,"endTime":1661.094,"body":"we, we sort of tax flights somewhat"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1661.094,"endTime":1664.2540000000001,"body":"at the moment, although not nearly"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1661.094,"endTime":1664.2540000000001,"body":"as much as other forms of travel."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1664.874,"endTime":1668.174,"body":"But you, you could maybe pick one"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1664.874,"endTime":1668.174,"body":"sector where it's very clear that it's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1668.174,"endTime":1669.4940000000001,"body":"the rich who fly and not the poor."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1670.174,"endTime":1674.594,"body":"If you were going to have some sort"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1670.174,"endTime":1674.594,"body":"of mechanism in flying, you know, for"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1674.594,"endTime":1676.154,"body":"certain it would be progressive, right?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1676.174,"endTime":1680.074,"body":"So it's the people who are creating"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1676.174,"endTime":1680.074,"body":"the greatest sort of climate impact"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1680.074,"endTime":1683.634,"body":"would be the people who would be"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1680.074,"endTime":1683.634,"body":"disadvantaged under a policy like that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1683.634,"endTime":1687.154,"body":"And the people who are not impacting"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1683.634,"endTime":1687.154,"body":"climate would be rewarded for that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1687.294,"endTime":1691.4740000000002,"body":"So that might be another way of thinking"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1687.294,"endTime":1691.4740000000002,"body":"about how could we try this idea out,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1692.1970000000001,"endTime":1696.434,"body":"because you know, there's, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1692.1970000000001,"endTime":1696.434,"body":"think flying's a bit unique in the sense"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1696.434,"endTime":1700.7540000000001,"body":"of there's no, there's no real magic"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1696.434,"endTime":1700.7540000000001,"body":"technology coming along in the next 10"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1700.814,"endTime":1705.834,"body":"or 15 or 20 years that can give us, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1700.814,"endTime":1705.834,"body":"know, the same access to flying with,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1705.864,"endTime":1707.594,"body":"with sort of very low carbon emissions."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1707.594,"endTime":1710.914,"body":"It's not like electric vehicles"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1707.594,"endTime":1710.914,"body":"and it's not like switching to low"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1710.914,"endTime":1713.074,"body":"carbon electricity or renewables."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1713.824,"endTime":1717.034,"body":"It's, you know, it's a long way in"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1713.824,"endTime":1717.034,"body":"the future if we ever get there."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1717.094,"endTime":1719.874,"body":"So that, you know, it might be"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1717.094,"endTime":1719.874,"body":"that you pick something like that."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1720.679,"endTime":1721.719,"body":"I would love that idea."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1721.999,"endTime":1726.625,"body":"I would extend it to travel though,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1721.999,"endTime":1726.625,"body":"because I do think the solution is"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1726.625,"endTime":1728.665,"body":"not just everyone to switch to EVs."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1728.825,"endTime":1732.545,"body":"I mean, we don't have enough lithium in"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1728.825,"endTime":1732.545,"body":"the world and getting it out is no picnic."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1733.325,"endTime":1733.545,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1733.73,"endTime":1734.53,"body":"loads of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1733.73,"endTime":1734.53,"body":"lithium in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1734.53,"endTime":1735.3700000000001,"body":"That's not gonna be an issue."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1736.345,"endTime":1740.075,"body":"Seriously, seriously, if you, if you look"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1736.345,"endTime":1740.075,"body":"at the numbers, there's loads of lithium."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1740.095,"endTime":1744.545,"body":"In fact, they just found a new,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1740.095,"endTime":1744.545,"body":"a new, dunno what the, the, the,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1744.565,"endTime":1750.4650000000001,"body":"the word is, but a new load of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1744.565,"endTime":1750.4650000000001,"body":"lithium  in, in America, in, um,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1750.81,"endTime":1751.56,"body":"We've got something"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1751.665,"endTime":1752.425,"body":"it in Nevada?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1752.425,"endTime":1753.2250000000001,"body":"Somewhere like that."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1753.4,"endTime":1756.4,"body":"it's not a pretty"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1753.4,"endTime":1756.4,"body":"business taking it out from under"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1756.42,"endTime":1758.24,"body":"the sea, from, you know, from mining."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1758.43,"endTime":1759.8400000000001,"body":"It's not a, a clean"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1760.3400000000001,"endTime":1760.63,"body":"true."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1760.74,"endTime":1767.1570000000002,"body":"It's not, but it displaces mining,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1760.74,"endTime":1767.1570000000002,"body":"oil and petroleum and the amount"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1767.1570000000002,"endTime":1771.557,"body":"that you have to extract to make the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1767.1570000000002,"endTime":1771.557,"body":"batteries for EVs is insignificant in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1771.557,"endTime":1775.767,"body":"terms of the amount that you have to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1771.557,"endTime":1775.767,"body":"extract for oil and, petrol and diesel."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1776.1870000000001,"endTime":1782.182,"body":"You know, it's something like for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1776.1870000000001,"endTime":1782.182,"body":"fossil fuels, you are extracting I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1782.182,"endTime":1786.5420000000001,"body":"can't remember the numbers now, but it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1782.182,"endTime":1786.5420000000001,"body":"something like 365 times more resources"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1786.5420000000001,"endTime":1788.5420000000001,"body":"from the soil than you are for EVs."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1789.002,"endTime":1792.462,"body":"So, no, that the, the, the lithium"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1789.002,"endTime":1792.462,"body":"thing, it's, it's not an issue."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1793.477,"endTime":1794.127,"body":"Good to know."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1794.76,"endTime":1799.02,"body":"but I have heard that the embedded carbon"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1794.76,"endTime":1799.02,"body":"in an ev you need to be driving about"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1799.02,"endTime":1801.42,"body":"25,000 miles before it kind of pays off."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1802.415,"endTime":1804.025,"body":"it's around 17,000 miles."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1804.055,"endTime":1804.345,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1804.4450000000002,"endTime":1807.545,"body":"But that's, that's a year and a half"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1804.4450000000002,"endTime":1807.545,"body":"of an average driver I would imagine."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1807.69,"endTime":1807.98,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1808.56,"endTime":1809.38,"body":"But even better."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1810.05,"endTime":1815.76,"body":"Would be to have such great and accessible"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1810.05,"endTime":1815.76,"body":"and cheap and wonderful public transport"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1815.76,"endTime":1817.04,"body":"that you didn't need your own car."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1817.48,"endTime":1820.2,"body":"I mean, people I know who live in"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1817.48,"endTime":1820.2,"body":"London, they don't run their own car."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1820.2,"endTime":1820.92,"body":"They don't need to."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1821.42,"endTime":1825.0800000000002,"body":"So if you had that kind of level of"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1821.42,"endTime":1825.0800000000002,"body":"public transport that goes where you"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1825.0800000000002,"endTime":1829.76,"body":"want it to go, supplemented perhaps"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1825.0800000000002,"endTime":1829.76,"body":"by, by driving ride share apps and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1829.76,"endTime":1831.44,"body":"so on, that would be even better."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1831.9070000000002,"endTime":1833.837,"body":"That would be a truly"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1831.9070000000002,"endTime":1833.837,"body":"sustainable solution."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1834.8970000000002,"endTime":1839.38,"body":"So if you have a, personal carbon"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1834.8970000000002,"endTime":1839.38,"body":"allowance that applies to travel in"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1839.38,"endTime":1843.02,"body":"general, I mean, obviously flights"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1839.38,"endTime":1843.02,"body":"would be a huge part of that, but"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1843.02,"endTime":1847.06,"body":"it would start steering investment"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1843.02,"endTime":1847.06,"body":"towards those more sustainable options."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1847.0800000000002,"endTime":1852.02,"body":"And they'd be great for, especially rural"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1847.0800000000002,"endTime":1852.02,"body":"communities where, you know, if you don't"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1852.02,"endTime":1856.38,"body":"have your own car and teenagers in rural"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1852.02,"endTime":1856.38,"body":"communities are stranded unless, you know,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1856.71,"endTime":1860.5,"body":"their parents are constantly get, you"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1856.71,"endTime":1860.5,"body":"know, providing them with lifts and so on."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1860.5,"endTime":1866.15,"body":"So, I do see a lot of potential"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1860.5,"endTime":1866.15,"body":"there to create something good for"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1866.22,"endTime":1868.3500000000001,"body":"society if we just start with travel."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1868.77,"endTime":1869.95,"body":"So there's a number of"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1868.77,"endTime":1869.95,"body":"ways we could do it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1869.95,"endTime":1872.91,"body":"We could start with a small country"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1869.95,"endTime":1872.91,"body":"to gain credibility, or we can"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1872.91,"endTime":1876.19,"body":"start with a small aspect of our,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1872.91,"endTime":1876.19,"body":"you know, pick the most high carbon"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1876.19,"endTime":1881.27,"body":"consumption sector and just focus"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1876.19,"endTime":1881.27,"body":"on that and develop it from there."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1882.1100000000001,"endTime":1885.68,"body":"Sure, and I think it"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1882.1100000000001,"endTime":1885.68,"body":"would be important as well to reassure"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1885.68,"endTime":1892.8400000000001,"body":"people that a scheme like this would"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1885.68,"endTime":1892.8400000000001,"body":"not be punitive unless you happen to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1892.8400000000001,"endTime":1900.02,"body":"be a really high emitter of carbon"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1892.8400000000001,"endTime":1900.02,"body":"and you know, that's only the top X"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1900.1000000000001,"endTime":1901.98,"body":"percent of people, whatever that x is."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":1902.7350000000001,"endTime":1903.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1904.74,"endTime":1904.96,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1905.1200000000001,"endTime":1908.44,"body":"I mean, we still don't know, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1905.1200000000001,"endTime":1908.44,"body":"know, the data on, you know, carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1908.72,"endTime":1912.297,"body":"emissions across the population,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1908.72,"endTime":1912.297,"body":"it's still a bit sketchy really."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1912.357,"endTime":1916.6970000000001,"body":"We kind of base it on expenditure, which"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1912.357,"endTime":1916.6970000000001,"body":"yeah, you know, you can match it with"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1916.6970000000001,"endTime":1918.497,"body":"carbon emissions, but only up to a point."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1919.287,"endTime":1923.617,"body":"But I think what we do know is that,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1919.287,"endTime":1923.617,"body":"there's a sort of tail of high emitters"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1923.837,"endTime":1927.977,"body":"and so most people are somewhat below"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1923.837,"endTime":1927.977,"body":"average or a bit below average because"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1928.077,"endTime":1931.587,"body":"the sort of the mean is high because"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1928.077,"endTime":1931.587,"body":"there's these kind of high emitters."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1932.097,"endTime":1937.345,"body":"And let's say we bring this, this policy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1932.097,"endTime":1937.345,"body":"in, in this, or whenever it is, people's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1937.4650000000001,"endTime":1941.585,"body":"emission allowances would be going down"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1937.4650000000001,"endTime":1941.585,"body":"every year as we head towards net zero."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1942.979,"endTime":1946.462,"body":"And you know, and the, what, what"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1942.979,"endTime":1946.462,"body":"moves around then is the price"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1946.462,"endTime":1947.582,"body":"of a, of a carbon allowance."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1947.682,"endTime":1950.142,"body":"And if most people are reducing"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1947.682,"endTime":1950.142,"body":"their emissions, and that"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1950.382,"endTime":1951.502,"body":"actually should stay quite low."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1951.662,"endTime":1954.242,"body":"I mean, if it's sky high,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1951.662,"endTime":1954.242,"body":"then that's, sort of bad sign."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1954.242,"endTime":1957.672,"body":"It means most people aren't investing in"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1954.242,"endTime":1957.672,"body":"efficiency or not giving up that extra"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1957.672,"endTime":1961.7920000000001,"body":"flight, or the city hasn't made bus"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1957.672,"endTime":1961.7920000000001,"body":"journeys available or whatever it is."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1961.8120000000001,"endTime":1965.2920000000001,"body":"That's not enabling people to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1961.8120000000001,"endTime":1965.2920000000001,"body":"live lower carbon lifestyles."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1965.852,"endTime":1971.067,"body":"So you would kind of hope"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1965.852,"endTime":1971.067,"body":"if we do it right, the price"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1971.137,"endTime":1972.9070000000002,"body":"doesn't become the only driver."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1973.707,"endTime":1975.707,"body":"Actually, it's that sort"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1973.707,"endTime":1975.707,"body":"of, what's my fair share?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1975.9270000000001,"endTime":1976.867,"body":"What's my neighbor doing?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1976.867,"endTime":1977.9470000000001,"body":"What information have I got?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1977.9470000000001,"endTime":1979.9070000000002,"body":"What nice low carbon options have I got?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1980.107,"endTime":1981.307,"body":"Actually, I don't really"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1980.107,"endTime":1981.307,"body":"want to use the car."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1981.307,"endTime":1982.9070000000002,"body":"I'll use my e-bike instead."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1982.967,"endTime":1986.267,"body":"Or maybe I'll actually not"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1982.967,"endTime":1986.267,"body":"take that journey and I'll, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1986.267,"endTime":1987.307,"body":"know, Skype into my meeting."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1988.527,"endTime":1991.627,"body":"So, you know, it's gotta be"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1988.527,"endTime":1991.627,"body":"part of a transformation."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1991.627,"endTime":1994.9470000000001,"body":"If nobody was interested in living a low"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1991.627,"endTime":1994.9470000000001,"body":"carbon life, obviously it wouldn't work,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1995.2720000000002,"endTime":1995.5620000000001,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1995.6870000000001,"endTime":1996.227,"body":"It wouldn't work."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1996.247,"endTime":1998.707,"body":"If nobody was unable to live that"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":1996.247,"endTime":1998.707,"body":"sort of life, it wouldn't work."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1999.872,"endTime":2003.692,"body":"it needs a certain amount"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1999.872,"endTime":2003.692,"body":"of peer pressure as well, I gotta think."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2004.315,"endTime":2011.2350000000001,"body":"I was talking to a Norwegian guy last"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2004.315,"endTime":2011.2350000000001,"body":"week and he was saying that, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2011.775,"endTime":2018.48,"body":"now, the sales of EVs in Norway is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2011.775,"endTime":2018.48,"body":"in excess of 90% of new car sales."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2018.98,"endTime":2024.0800000000002,"body":"And he said if somebody does buy a new car"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2018.98,"endTime":2024.0800000000002,"body":"and it's not an EV, they're kind of looked"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2024.1000000000001,"endTime":2028.92,"body":"at ascanse and it's similar to, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2024.1000000000001,"endTime":2028.92,"body":"lighting up a cigarette in a hospital"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2028.95,"endTime":2032.3600000000001,"body":"room, you know, it's or on a plane."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2032.43,"endTime":2037.1200000000001,"body":"It's, it's, you know, or in a restaurant,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2032.43,"endTime":2037.1200000000001,"body":"people kind of go, you didn't buy an EV?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2038.06,"endTime":2038.28,"body":"Why?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2038.3400000000001,"endTime":2039.88,"body":"You know, it's irresponsible almost."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2040.02,"endTime":2045.46,"body":"So, I think we've gotta have something"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2040.02,"endTime":2045.46,"body":"a, a similar kind of transformation"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2046.3600000000001,"endTime":2051.394,"body":"of people's mindset, for something"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2046.3600000000001,"endTime":2051.394,"body":"like this to take place or to make"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2051.394,"endTime":2052.754,"body":"something like this successful, no?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2053.874,"endTime":2057.324,"body":"Well, in some ways, maybe"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2053.874,"endTime":2057.324,"body":"you need less peer pressure because"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2057.834,"endTime":2060.284,"body":"there's a personal incentive, isn't there?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2060.8289999999997,"endTime":2064.3289999999997,"body":"So at the moment, the only reason"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2060.8289999999997,"endTime":2064.3289999999997,"body":"I wouldn't fly to the Maldives, you"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2064.3289999999997,"endTime":2070.009,"body":"know, while eating steak on the journey"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2064.3289999999997,"endTime":2070.009,"body":"you know, it's, it's my own personal"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2070.0589999999997,"endTime":2073.649,"body":"green conscience, but also there's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2070.0589999999997,"endTime":2073.649,"body":"an element of people being judgy."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2074.479,"endTime":2074.769,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2075.069,"endTime":2079.649,"body":"But I would feel much better about it if"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2075.069,"endTime":2079.649,"body":"I was being rewarded for my good behavior."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2081.2290000000003,"endTime":2084.759,"body":"It's not very nice going around being"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2081.2290000000003,"endTime":2084.759,"body":"judgy or guilty or, or resentful."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2084.759,"endTime":2088.5190000000002,"body":"Much better to actually align"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2084.759,"endTime":2088.5190000000002,"body":"your personal incentives"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2088.909,"endTime":2090.639,"body":"with the desired behavior."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2091.619,"endTime":2095.839,"body":"So I would think if I'm rewarded for,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2091.619,"endTime":2095.839,"body":"for not behaving that way or rewarded"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2095.839,"endTime":2100.239,"body":"for my walking trip to the Lake District,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2095.839,"endTime":2100.239,"body":"then I might feel less bad about the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2100.239,"endTime":2101.719,"body":"fact that other people are doing that."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2102.559,"endTime":2104.079,"body":"'cause at the moment I'm"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2102.559,"endTime":2104.079,"body":"thinking, well, they're all"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2104.079,"endTime":2105.439,"body":"having fun 'cause they don't care."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2108.237,"endTime":2110.937,"body":"And now I can think, well, they're"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2108.237,"endTime":2110.937,"body":"paying through the nose for it, so Ha ha,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2113.677,"endTime":2116.157,"body":"I mean that's, I think"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2113.677,"endTime":2116.157,"body":"it's very interesting the way Denise is"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2116.397,"endTime":2119.317,"body":"focusing on sort of, you know, emotions"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2116.397,"endTime":2119.317,"body":"and things like that, 'cause of course"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2119.447,"endTime":2123.317,"body":"as a sort of, I don't know, an energy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2119.447,"endTime":2123.317,"body":"policy academic, I'm sort of thinking"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2123.317,"endTime":2127.2870000000003,"body":"about, oh, you know, know, the carbon"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2123.317,"endTime":2127.2870000000003,"body":"emissions per kiloWatt hour and the sort"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2127.2870000000003,"endTime":2129.247,"body":"of, you know, the techy aspects of it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2129.347,"endTime":2135.092,"body":"But of course this is, you know, it's,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2129.347,"endTime":2135.092,"body":"it is about, collective action is about"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2135.092,"endTime":2139.102,"body":"social norms as well as it's about"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2135.092,"endTime":2139.102,"body":"prices, as well as it's about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2139.102,"endTime":2141.102,"body":"getting feedback on your behaviors."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2141.102,"endTime":2142.822,"body":"And so there's all sorts"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2141.102,"endTime":2142.822,"body":"of things going on."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2143.422,"endTime":2146.919,"body":"I think one thing that's, so, I mean"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2143.422,"endTime":2146.919,"body":"this seems like an aside, but if"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2146.919,"endTime":2149.819,"body":"we think about, for example, smart"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2146.919,"endTime":2149.819,"body":"meters, for example, when smart meters"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2149.839,"endTime":2153.159,"body":"came in, and if you have an in-home"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2149.839,"endTime":2153.159,"body":"display, what the research shows is"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2153.469,"endTime":2157.579,"body":"without giving people any additional"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2153.469,"endTime":2157.579,"body":"advice, they can sustain energy"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2157.579,"endTime":2161.419,"body":"savings of about 3% a year over time,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2157.579,"endTime":2161.419,"body":"and they may even increase over time."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2161.469,"endTime":2161.819,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2161.839,"endTime":2165.339,"body":"And that's, that's just the power"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2161.839,"endTime":2165.339,"body":"of actually getting feedback on"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2165.339,"endTime":2168.739,"body":"your behavior of understanding a bit"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2165.339,"endTime":2168.739,"body":"better, the energy use in your home."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2168.899,"endTime":2171.419,"body":"I mean, you can do things to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2168.899,"endTime":2171.419,"body":"help people make more, much more"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2171.419,"endTime":2174.9790000000003,"body":"savings than that based on that"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2171.419,"endTime":2174.9790000000003,"body":"data and, you know, better advice."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2175.599,"endTime":2178.4990000000003,"body":"you know, just even the feedback"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2175.599,"endTime":2178.4990000000003,"body":"of having a carbon allowance"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2178.599,"endTime":2181.659,"body":"and going, oh, right, I'm three"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2178.599,"endTime":2181.659,"body":"times the national average, am I?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2182.319,"endTime":2185.1040000000003,"body":"You know, I mean, that does matter."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2185.454,"endTime":2190.384,"body":"That that just, even that step, even"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2185.454,"endTime":2190.384,"body":"if there was no penalty, right, even if"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2190.384,"endTime":2194.584,"body":"you introduced this as an information"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2190.384,"endTime":2194.584,"body":"measure and you didn't straight away"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2194.634,"endTime":2198.424,"body":"start talking about what happens if you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2194.634,"endTime":2198.424,"body":"exceed your cap, which is, I think in"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2198.424,"endTime":2201.904,"body":"reality what you'd do first, it would"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2198.424,"endTime":2201.904,"body":"come in as information and then we'd say,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2201.924,"endTime":2206.224,"body":"and from next year or the year after,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2201.924,"endTime":2206.224,"body":"actually we're gonna start meaning it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2206.6440000000002,"endTime":2209.184,"body":"And if you exceed your cap after"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2206.6440000000002,"endTime":2209.184,"body":"that, you know, you give people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2209.184,"endTime":2212.904,"body":"maybe a, a learning year where"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2209.184,"endTime":2212.904,"body":"they can work out where they are."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2213.699,"endTime":2216.819,"body":"And what options are available to them,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2213.699,"endTime":2216.819,"body":"and then you, then you start applying"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2216.859,"endTime":2219.459,"body":"a penalty I think so you can, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2219.5190000000002,"endTime":2224.899,"body":"You can see it as a source of, you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2219.5190000000002,"endTime":2224.899,"body":"know, hope, a source of information, a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2224.899,"endTime":2228.9790000000003,"body":"source of, you know, encouragement to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2224.899,"endTime":2228.9790000000003,"body":"make the right sort of changes rather"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2228.9790000000003,"endTime":2231.9790000000003,"body":"than just some sort of penalty and a big"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2228.9790000000003,"endTime":2231.9790000000003,"body":"stick that we're gonna hit people with"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2232.579,"endTime":2233.559,"body":"And also don't forget,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2233.789,"endTime":2234.509,"body":"much like the"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2234.799,"endTime":2235.799,"body":"you, from going under it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2236.2290000000003,"endTime":2236.449,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2236.879,"endTime":2239.539,"body":"So there's, there's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2236.879,"endTime":2239.539,"body":"this carrots as well as sticks."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2239.679,"endTime":2244.739,"body":"So while I'm cycling up the hill"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2239.679,"endTime":2244.739,"body":"to work instead of seething at my"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2244.739,"endTime":2250.339,"body":"colleague who's flying down from"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2244.739,"endTime":2250.339,"body":"Edinburgh every day, I could be"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2250.339,"endTime":2252.099,"body":"selling in some of my carbon credits."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2253.594,"endTime":2254.564,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2255.3540000000003,"endTime":2257.8940000000002,"body":"It, it sounds, again,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2255.3540000000003,"endTime":2257.8940000000002,"body":"it sounds very much like how the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2258.174,"endTime":2262.254,"body":"EU ETS scheme started out where"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2258.174,"endTime":2262.254,"body":"companies were given far more"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2262.254,"endTime":2263.334,"body":"allowances than they needed."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2264.724,"endTime":2269.1440000000002,"body":"And so, you know, it, it took time"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2264.724,"endTime":2269.1440000000002,"body":"for the cap to come down and come down"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2269.1440000000002,"endTime":2270.384,"body":"and come down for it to be effective."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2270.384,"endTime":2273.264,"body":"But in the meantime, they were"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2270.384,"endTime":2273.264,"body":"getting used to the system and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2273.264,"endTime":2276.264,"body":"getting used to reporting to it and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2273.264,"endTime":2276.264,"body":"getting used to buying and selling."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2276.484,"endTime":2279.584,"body":"And now it's become an effective"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2276.484,"endTime":2279.584,"body":"mechanism and it's reducing emissions."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2280.1440000000002,"endTime":2285.654,"body":"I think, uh, something like a a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2280.1440000000002,"endTime":2285.654,"body":"gigaton has come out of the system"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2285.674,"endTime":2289.734,"body":"now as a consequence of ETS scheme,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2285.674,"endTime":2289.734,"body":"and they're reducing it at the moment."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2289.804,"endTime":2295.054,"body":"It's 2% a year, but they're ramping up"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2289.804,"endTime":2295.054,"body":"for the Fit for 55 to over 4% a year now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2295.754,"endTime":2299.577,"body":"So, I do see, parallels there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2295.754,"endTime":2299.577,"body":"and I, I, I think you're right."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2299.577,"endTime":2304.55,"body":"I think it would have to be brought in, in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2299.577,"endTime":2304.55,"body":"a phased manner, rather than an overnight"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2304.82,"endTime":2307.654,"body":"Boom, no more, uh, carbon for you, Mr."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2310.039,"endTime":2310.7290000000003,"body":"Yeah, but."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2311.279,"endTime":2315.179,"body":"But I think hopefully you'd want it to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2311.279,"endTime":2315.179,"body":"get effective faster than the EU ETS."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2315.199,"endTime":2317.639,"body":"'cause I think it's reasonable to"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2315.199,"endTime":2317.639,"body":"say the first 10 years of that scheme"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2317.639,"endTime":2322.439,"body":"were a bit debatable about how much"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2317.639,"endTime":2322.439,"body":"positive change that really drove."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2322.459,"endTime":2325.559,"body":"But then hopefully we've learned"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2322.459,"endTime":2325.559,"body":"from that that we can move in faster."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2325.559,"endTime":2328.759,"body":"Because I think the other thing about"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2325.559,"endTime":2328.759,"body":"this scheme is if it works, right, if"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2328.759,"endTime":2332.959,"body":"it's helping us to get towards net zero,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2328.759,"endTime":2332.959,"body":"it'll only, you know, what will it be in"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2332.959,"endTime":2336.759,"body":"for 20 years and then we won't need it"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2332.959,"endTime":2336.759,"body":"anymore, more or less, 20 something years."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2337.119,"endTime":2341.009,"body":"I mean, after that, hopefully,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2337.119,"endTime":2341.009,"body":"we are living in some sort of net"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2341.009,"endTime":2344.049,"body":"zero economy where we've completely"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2341.009,"endTime":2344.049,"body":"decarbonized the energy system."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2344.459,"endTime":2347.489,"body":"We're doing all the, you know, other"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2344.459,"endTime":2347.489,"body":"stuff around land management and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2347.799,"endTime":2351.649,"body":"peat and you know, all the other type"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2347.799,"endTime":2351.649,"body":"elements of greenhouse gas emissions."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2351.649,"endTime":2355.329,"body":"And maybe, know, this is a"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2351.649,"endTime":2355.329,"body":"transition tool to help us all"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2355.329,"endTime":2356.329,"body":"get to where we need to get to."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2357.389,"endTime":2360.069,"body":"I like the idea as"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2357.389,"endTime":2360.069,"body":"well that it will enable economies"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2360.069,"endTime":2361.589,"body":"of scale for low carbon products."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2362.614,"endTime":2366.114,"body":"So at the moment, I put my hand in"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2362.614,"endTime":2366.114,"body":"my pocket to pay twice what I should"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2366.1240000000003,"endTime":2369.674,"body":"would do to get insect based dog"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2366.1240000000003,"endTime":2369.674,"body":"food, hence me mentioning it earlier."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2370.294,"endTime":2371.754,"body":"But it is a big expense."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2372.014,"endTime":2376.154,"body":"You know, I've got, I've got two dogs,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2372.014,"endTime":2376.154,"body":"so if we're all doing that, if that's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2376.194,"endTime":2380.234,"body":"rewarded, you know, if that comes out"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2376.194,"endTime":2380.234,"body":"of our carbon allowance, you know, these"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2380.634,"endTime":2384.074,"body":"companies that produce it can really"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2380.634,"endTime":2384.074,"body":"take off and then it will become cheaper"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2384.734,"endTime":2388.634,"body":"and it will just become easier and"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2384.734,"endTime":2388.634,"body":"easier to live a low carbon lifestyle."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2389.299,"endTime":2389.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2389.879,"endTime":2391.049,"body":"Fair point, fair point."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2391.659,"endTime":2394.569,"body":"We're coming towards the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2391.659,"endTime":2394.569,"body":"end of the podcast now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2395.2690000000002,"endTime":2399.369,"body":"Is there any question I haven't asked that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2395.2690000000002,"endTime":2399.369,"body":"you wish I had or any aspect of this we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2399.369,"endTime":2402.209,"body":"haven't touched on that you think it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2399.369,"endTime":2402.209,"body":"important for people to think about?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2403.819,"endTime":2405.8740000000003,"body":"Well, I mean, I was"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2403.819,"endTime":2405.8740000000003,"body":"just gonna talk a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2405.8740000000003,"endTime":2409.2400000000002,"body":"the research that's been done on this,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2405.8740000000003,"endTime":2409.2400000000002,"body":"and particularly the research around,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2409.2400000000002,"endTime":2410.48,"body":"well, what do people think of it?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2410.48,"endTime":2413.7200000000003,"body":"Because actually it's one of those ideas"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2410.48,"endTime":2413.7200000000003,"body":"that you can explain it to somebody"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2413.7200000000003,"endTime":2416.7200000000003,"body":"in two minutes and then they can start"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2413.7200000000003,"endTime":2416.7200000000003,"body":"having an argument with you very quickly."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2416.78,"endTime":2420.2000000000003,"body":"As I know from talking to students and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2416.78,"endTime":2420.2000000000003,"body":"talking to public groups about it, it's,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2420.55,"endTime":2425.0,"body":"it's, it's quite easy to grasp the idea"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2420.55,"endTime":2425.0,"body":"and what's really at stake, which makes"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2425.0,"endTime":2427.12,"body":"it fascinating for discussions, really."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2428.14,"endTime":2431.857,"body":"But there's been quite a lot of research"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2428.14,"endTime":2431.857,"body":"on, on different, with different groups in"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2431.857,"endTime":2435.297,"body":"different countries and, and people always"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2431.857,"endTime":2435.297,"body":"come back to two issues with this idea."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2435.297,"endTime":2439.0570000000002,"body":"There's, there's the one is the fairness"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2435.297,"endTime":2439.0570000000002,"body":"and the other is the implementation."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2439.077,"endTime":2440.817,"body":"And I think we've covered"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2439.077,"endTime":2440.817,"body":"that a lot in the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2440.917,"endTime":2442.657,"body":"And those are the two things"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2440.917,"endTime":2442.657,"body":"people are concerned about."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2442.657,"endTime":2446.297,"body":"And if they think it's fair and if they"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2442.657,"endTime":2446.297,"body":"think it could be done practically,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2446.297,"endTime":2447.497,"body":"then they tend to be in favor."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2448.112,"endTime":2450.972,"body":"And if they think it's unfair"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2448.112,"endTime":2450.972,"body":"or they don't really believe you"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2450.972,"endTime":2453.492,"body":"could have a policy like this,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2450.972,"endTime":2453.492,"body":"they tend to be against it."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2453.592,"endTime":2457.332,"body":"So that's where we need to make the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2453.592,"endTime":2457.332,"body":"argument and make the case with people."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2457.512,"endTime":2460.012,"body":"If it's going to get public"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2457.512,"endTime":2460.012,"body":"acceptance and if it's gonna get"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2460.012,"endTime":2463.252,"body":"political acceptance, those are the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2460.012,"endTime":2463.252,"body":"things that we need to focus on."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2463.332,"endTime":2466.782,"body":"'cause that's what people, that's"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2463.332,"endTime":2466.782,"body":"how they engage with this idea."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2467.872,"endTime":2471.762,"body":"One issue though is avoids,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2467.872,"endTime":2471.762,"body":"that avoids the issue of vested interests."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2472.862,"endTime":2477.282,"body":"So you may think it's fair, but if"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2472.862,"endTime":2477.282,"body":"it doesn't benefit you personally, if"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2477.342,"endTime":2482.002,"body":"you are a very high carbon lifestyle"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2477.342,"endTime":2482.002,"body":"person, then you know you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2482.002,"endTime":2485.002,"body":"have those people badmouthing"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2482.002,"endTime":2485.002,"body":"it and spreading misinformation."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2485.717,"endTime":2491.377,"body":"And you know, their reach sometime"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2485.717,"endTime":2491.377,"body":"is, is disproportionately loud because"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2491.627,"endTime":2492.547,"body":"own social networks,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2493.417,"endTime":2494.817,"body":"'cause they own"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2493.417,"endTime":2494.817,"body":"social networks, they want to"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2494.817,"endTime":2495.897,"body":"go to the moon for God's sake."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2495.897,"endTime":2497.657,"body":"We are talking about"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2495.897,"endTime":2497.657,"body":"traveling to Maldives."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2498.357,"endTime":2503.897,"body":"So , so this is something that I think"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2498.357,"endTime":2503.897,"body":"we, we need to be prepared for as well."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2504.207,"endTime":2507.0170000000003,"body":"It's just that the trash talking"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2504.207,"endTime":2507.0170000000003,"body":"and spreading of misinformation"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2507.217,"endTime":2508.097,"body":"'cause clearly it is fair."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2508.357,"endTime":2508.637,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2509.137,"endTime":2513.637,"body":"Um, I think that argument's been made"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2509.137,"endTime":2513.637,"body":"and, you know, it can be implemented."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2513.667,"endTime":2518.397,"body":"It's just a question of how, so"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2513.667,"endTime":2518.397,"body":"it's tackling those other voices"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2519.007,"endTime":2522.157,"body":"which are just really protecting"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2519.007,"endTime":2522.157,"body":"their own high carbon lifestyles."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2523.2670000000003,"endTime":2523.5570000000002,"body":"Fair."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2523.902,"endTime":2525.6620000000003,"body":"I think, I think"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2523.902,"endTime":2525.6620000000003,"body":"that's a fair point and again, the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2525.782,"endTime":2526.862,"body":"research would back you up on that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2526.862,"endTime":2529.622,"body":"People with higher emissions tend"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2526.862,"endTime":2529.622,"body":"to be a bit more skeptical about it"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2529.622,"endTime":2530.902,"body":"than people with lower emissions."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2530.902,"endTime":2533.742,"body":"Obviously it's self-interest, but,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2530.902,"endTime":2533.742,"body":"but, but I mean, I think another"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2534.062,"endTime":2537.062,"body":"encouraging thing is it's not"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2534.062,"endTime":2537.062,"body":"particularly a left right thing."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2538.252,"endTime":2540.272,"body":"You know, so you've got people"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2538.252,"endTime":2540.272,"body":"on the right and people on the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2540.272,"endTime":2541.552,"body":"left supporting this as an idea."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2541.712,"endTime":2544.032,"body":"'cause people can find"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2541.712,"endTime":2544.032,"body":"different values in it, right?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2544.032,"endTime":2545.992,"body":"They can find it reflecting"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2544.032,"endTime":2545.992,"body":"their values in different ways."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2545.992,"endTime":2547.3920000000003,"body":"And I think that's quite encouraging."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2547.6620000000003,"endTime":2551.552,"body":"This isn't only an idea for the"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2547.6620000000003,"endTime":2551.552,"body":"sort of red, green type people."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2551.622,"endTime":2552.992,"body":"It's an idea that can work for everybody."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2553.012,"endTime":2554.552,"body":"And I think that's,"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2553.012,"endTime":2554.552,"body":"that's really important."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2555.527,"endTime":2555.747,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2555.832,"endTime":2556.122,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2556.552,"endTime":2556.842,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2556.852,"endTime":2557.202,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2557.612,"endTime":2557.962,"body":"Super."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2558.4320000000002,"endTime":2562.722,"body":"Tina, Denise, if people would like to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2558.4320000000002,"endTime":2562.722,"body":"know more about yourselves or any of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2562.722,"endTime":2565.962,"body":"things we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2562.722,"endTime":2565.962,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2567.117,"endTime":2567.487,"body":"Tina?"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2568.0370000000003,"endTime":2570.222,"body":"That's a good question."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2570.222,"endTime":2574.009,"body":"There isn't, there isn't one place, but"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2570.222,"endTime":2574.009,"body":"I think, if you, we've got a very nice"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2574.009,"endTime":2579.239,"body":"little short YouTube animated video and"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2574.009,"endTime":2579.239,"body":"if you look for personal carbon allowances"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2579.539,"endTime":2582.2690000000002,"body":"for set, on YouTube, you should find that."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2582.289,"endTime":2585.349,"body":"And that's quite a nice sort of three"},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2582.289,"endTime":2585.349,"body":"minute introduction to the idea."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2586.449,"endTime":2588.889,"body":"Send me the link to that and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2586.449,"endTime":2588.889,"body":"I'll include it in the show notes Tina."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2589.149,"endTime":2589.569,"body":"Denise?"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2590.362,"endTime":2592.8920000000003,"body":"Well, my website,"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2590.362,"endTime":2592.8920000000003,"body":"which has got my books, which"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2592.962,"endTime":2596.292,"body":"talk about that, is dabaden.com."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2596.292,"endTime":2598.202,"body":"Just all one word dabaden."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2598.5170000000003,"endTime":2603.654,"body":"And also you will find, a lot of stuff"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2598.5170000000003,"endTime":2603.654,"body":"on this, on green stories.org.uk."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2604.75,"endTime":2608.2200000000003,"body":"and you will also find, Tina's"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2604.75,"endTime":2608.2200000000003,"body":"work there as well because we've"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2608.38,"endTime":2612.62,"body":"referenced that in our book, No More"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2608.38,"endTime":2612.62,"body":"Fairytales Stories To Save The Planet."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2613.05,"endTime":2616.9,"body":"Each solution in there links to a"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2613.05,"endTime":2616.9,"body":"page on the website where there's more"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2616.9,"endTime":2618.5,"body":"information to learn more about it."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2618.7200000000003,"endTime":2622.04,"body":"So, personal carbon allowances"},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2618.7200000000003,"endTime":2622.04,"body":"are, are covered there as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2623.35,"endTime":2623.59,"body":"Perfect."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2623.9,"endTime":2626.51,"body":"Awesome, Tina Denise, that's been great."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2626.51,"endTime":2628.31,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2626.51,"endTime":2628.31,"body":"on the podcast today."},{"speaker":"Denise Baden","startTime":2628.608,"endTime":2629.718,"body":"Thank you for inviting us."},{"speaker":"Tina Fawcett","startTime":2630.303,"endTime":2630.583,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2632.92,"endTime":2634.79,"body":"Okay, we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2632.92,"endTime":2634.79,"body":"come to the end of the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2635.51,"endTime":2636.62,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2637.48,"endTime":2641.63,"body":"If you'd like to know more about the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2637.48,"endTime":2641.63,"body":"Climate Confident podcast, feel free to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2641.64,"endTime":2645.55,"body":"drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2645.8,"endTime":2649.28,"body":"com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2649.85,"endTime":2653.59,"body":"If you like the show, please don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2649.85,"endTime":2653.59,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2653.61,"endTime":2658.09,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2653.61,"endTime":2658.09,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2658.7200000000003,"endTime":2661.68,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2658.7200000000003,"endTime":2661.68,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2661.88,"endTime":2664.41,"body":"It really does help new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2661.88,"endTime":2664.41,"body":"people to find the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2665.5,"endTime":2665.9500000000003,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2666.62,"endTime":2667.54,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}