{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":3.188,"endTime":6.128,"body":"As a policymaker,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":3.188,"endTime":6.128,"body":"recognizing as, as we're beginning"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":6.128,"endTime":11.168,"body":"to see now, that stimulating this"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":6.128,"endTime":11.168,"body":"through policy can be a domestic"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":11.168,"endTime":12.688,"body":"industrial competitive advantage."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":12.788,"endTime":17.705,"body":"And you're seeing now a competitive"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":12.788,"endTime":17.705,"body":"cycle emerging between Chinese"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":17.705,"endTime":23.085,"body":"five-year plans, US IRA, EU"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":17.705,"endTime":23.085,"body":"Green Deal that's happening too."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":23.185,"endTime":25.725,"body":"So it's about accelerating those things."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":26.185,"endTime":28.255,"body":"Good morning, good"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":26.185,"endTime":28.255,"body":"afternoon, or good evening,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":28.265,"endTime":29.765,"body":"wherever you are in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.085,"endTime":33.815,"body":"This is the Climate Confident"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.085,"endTime":33.815,"body":"podcast, the number one podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":33.955,"endTime":37.725,"body":"showcasing best practices in climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":33.955,"endTime":37.725,"body":"emission reductions and removals,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.155,"endTime":40.095,"body":"and I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":40.255,"endTime":44.015,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":40.255,"endTime":44.015,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":44.175,"endTime":46.535,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":47.222,"endTime":47.762,"body":"Hi everyone."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":47.762,"endTime":49.282,"body":"Welcome to the Climate Confident Podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":49.822,"endTime":53.042,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":49.822,"endTime":53.042,"body":"with me on the show today, I"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":53.042,"endTime":54.202,"body":"have my special guest, Jeremy."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":54.542,"endTime":56.202,"body":"Jeremy, welcome to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":56.372,"endTime":57.762,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":59.152,"endTime":60.482,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":59.152,"endTime":60.482,"body":"thanks Tom, that's great."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":60.589,"endTime":60.879,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":60.899,"endTime":61.319,"body":"I'm Jeremy."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":61.339,"endTime":62.319,"body":"Jeremy Bentham."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":62.849,"endTime":65.119,"body":"Let me say about myself."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":65.289,"endTime":69.629,"body":"I'm British by origin, but international"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":65.289,"endTime":69.629,"body":"by choice of nature, I guess."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":70.269,"endTime":74.629,"body":"I currently live in the Hague in the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":70.269,"endTime":74.629,"body":"Netherlands with my wife and my elderly"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":74.649,"endTime":76.709,"body":"mother and other family members as well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":77.509,"endTime":82.719,"body":"I was educated as a scientist in the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":77.509,"endTime":82.719,"body":"United Kingdom and in the United States,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":83.245,"endTime":85.165,"body":"but I've got a lifelong love of theater."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":85.585,"endTime":88.755,"body":"Try to balance those areas of my life."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":89.245,"endTime":94.255,"body":"I've actually got 40 years of experience"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":89.245,"endTime":94.255,"body":"in the international energy industry,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":94.445,"endTime":98.915,"body":"working in many roles in all parts of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":94.445,"endTime":98.915,"body":"the industry, but laterally I was the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":98.915,"endTime":106.0,"body":"early chief executive of Shell Hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":98.915,"endTime":106.0,"body":"and then led the whole company's"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":106.56,"endTime":108.44,"body":"scenario and strategy activities."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":108.85,"endTime":114.37,"body":"So I've been involved in deeply"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":108.85,"endTime":114.37,"body":"considering energy transitions"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":114.79,"endTime":118.25,"body":"for the best part of, well,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":114.79,"endTime":118.25,"body":"more than two decades now."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":119.03,"endTime":121.66,"body":"Since retiring from"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":119.03,"endTime":121.66,"body":"corporate executive life."},{"speaker":"Jeremy 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of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":162.964,"endTime":164.944,"body":"a potted history as well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":165.024,"endTime":166.614,"body":"I hope I didn't take up"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":165.024,"endTime":166.614,"body":"too much of your time."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":166.839,"endTime":167.129,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":167.149,"endTime":168.169,"body":"No, no, no, that's fine."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":168.169,"endTime":168.689,"body":"That's fine."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":169.309,"endTime":177.149,"body":"I mean, should I ask, because it"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":169.309,"endTime":177.149,"body":"seems a little, kind of almost"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":177.709,"endTime":184.709,"body":"confrontational, but energy transitions"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":177.709,"endTime":184.709,"body":"and Shell has, Shell really transitioned"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":184.769,"endTime":186.669,"body":"at all in the last 40 years."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":188.134,"endTime":188.664,"body":"Well, okay."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":188.664,"endTime":191.694,"body":"It's actually been a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":188.664,"endTime":191.694,"body":"transitions in the the last four years."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":191.984,"endTime":195.977,"body":"But I'm not here to kind of, represent"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":191.984,"endTime":195.977,"body":"or defend my former employer."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":196.517,"endTime":204.29,"body":"But you know, clearly a company like"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":196.517,"endTime":204.29,"body":"Shell was very early in, recognizing the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":204.29,"endTime":206.49,"body":"significance of greenhouse gas emissions."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":206.99,"endTime":211.94,"body":"So, my predecessors in that leading"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":206.99,"endTime":211.94,"body":"scenario role that I spoke of were"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":211.94,"endTime":218.0,"body":"already making films and publishing"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":211.94,"endTime":218.0,"body":"films about that kind of pressure"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":218.1,"endTime":222.28,"body":"on the environment, you know, back"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":218.1,"endTime":222.28,"body":"in the very, very early nineties."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":222.78,"endTime":226.04,"body":"But the, the world wasn't"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":222.78,"endTime":226.04,"body":"kind of ready for it yet."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":226.2,"endTime":230.51,"body":"I mean, it's taken a long time"},{"speaker":"Jeremy 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Bentham","startTime":248.367,"endTime":251.627,"body":"for those things to build up."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":251.837,"endTime":257.677,"body":"But I like to think that my, my role, my"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":251.837,"endTime":257.677,"body":"wife used to say, if I can say this would"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":257.857,"endTime":261.737,"body":"be a barnacle on the rudder of big Shell."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":262.197,"endTime":266.337,"body":"And so in that help kind of,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":262.197,"endTime":266.337,"body":"you know, direct the rudder"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":266.447,"endTime":269.057,"body":"over time and see changes."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":269.837,"endTime":275.487,"body":"And you know, with, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":269.837,"endTime":275.487,"body":"focus already beginning in the the late"},{"speaker":"Jeremy 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but"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":319.294,"endTime":327.394,"body":"how do you build and create the markets"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":319.294,"endTime":327.394,"body":"where people are using energy differently?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":327.664,"endTime":329.794,"body":"Because that's kind of what's important."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":330.214,"endTime":335.114,"body":"We all use energy all the time, so we're"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":330.214,"endTime":335.114,"body":"talking about using energy differently."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":335.574,"endTime":335.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":335.924,"endTime":338.824,"body":"And, and it, it, it is a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":335.924,"endTime":338.824,"body":"challenging one, I know."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":339.204,"endTime":341.244,"body":"A lot of it change is always hard."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":341.784,"endTime":348.644,"body":"And you know, even if you're living in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":341.784,"endTime":348.644,"body":"a house as an individual and you have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":348.644,"endTime":355.484,"body":"a gas boiler, you know, what's the,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":348.644,"endTime":355.484,"body":"if it's not for conscientious reasons."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":356.274,"endTime":360.564,"body":"What is the burning platform to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":356.274,"endTime":360.564,"body":"make you rip out that gas boiler"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":360.624,"endTime":364.724,"body":"and for example, put in a heat"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":360.624,"endTime":364.724,"body":"pump instead for heating your home?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":365.104,"endTime":372.404,"body":"You know it now gas prices have changed"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":365.104,"endTime":372.404,"body":"wildly, so maybe it's that maybe you've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":372.604,"endTime":375.604,"body":"got more security of, of energy bills."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":375.924,"endTime":376.324,"body":"I don't know."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":377.064,"endTime":381.529,"body":"But the, the point I'm getting to is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":377.064,"endTime":381.529,"body":"change is hard even at an individual"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":381.539,"endTime":385.649,"body":"level, so I can imagine at a massive"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":381.539,"endTime":385.649,"body":"corporate level, it must be orders"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":385.709,"endTime":387.249,"body":"of magnitude harder yet again."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":389.334,"endTime":390.554,"body":"It, it certainly can be."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":390.554,"endTime":394.114,"body":"And you know, you know, stars"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":390.554,"endTime":394.114,"body":"kind of have to align and, and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":394.114,"endTime":395.554,"body":"you can work to help align them."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":395.934,"endTime":400.674,"body":"You know, we have, I think, again,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":395.934,"endTime":400.674,"body":"seen in the world some, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":401.354,"endTime":406.154,"body":"remarkable things that are successful"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":401.354,"endTime":406.154,"body":"over the last period of time."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":407.797,"endTime":415.527,"body":"We now have a, a solar power industry,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":407.797,"endTime":415.527,"body":"you know, growing at double digit"},{"speaker":"Jeremy 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Raftery","startTime":438.269,"endTime":438.489,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":438.669,"endTime":438.889,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":438.944,"endTime":442.284,"body":"And it, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":438.944,"endTime":442.284,"body":"starts from a small base but it eventually"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":442.284,"endTime":445.284,"body":"gets to a bigger base and then naturally"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":442.284,"endTime":445.284,"body":"some of that growth has to slow down"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":445.404,"endTime":448.204,"body":"'cause it's become so, so huge already."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":448.784,"endTime":449.004,"body":"So."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":449.889,"endTime":454.849,"body":"I don't want us to lose sight"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":449.889,"endTime":454.849,"body":"of the urgency, but also, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":454.849,"endTime":459.649,"body":"know, I want to learn from and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":454.849,"endTime":459.649,"body":"direct attention to the successes."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":459.649,"endTime":465.809,"body":"And then how can those be replicated"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":459.649,"endTime":465.809,"body":"in other areas where you need success."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":466.469,"endTime":472.419,"body":"And, and so you, you were speaking"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":466.469,"endTime":472.419,"body":"there almost about you know, the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":472.739,"endTime":476.819,"body":"ordinary citizen and, and what"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":472.739,"endTime":476.819,"body":"can I do as an ordinary citizen?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":478.019,"endTime":483.215,"body":"Rather than, as a a corporate"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":478.019,"endTime":483.215,"body":"leader or a policy legislator in"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":483.215,"endTime":484.455,"body":"government and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":485.035,"endTime":491.875,"body":"And I, I like to think there are, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":485.035,"endTime":491.875,"body":"know, five things that can be done."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":493.855,"endTime":499.035,"body":"And fertile ground can be"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":493.855,"endTime":499.035,"body":"created for those, those things."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":499.775,"endTime":500.675,"body":"But as an individual."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":502.125,"endTime":505.885,"body":"I mean, first of all, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":502.125,"endTime":505.885,"body":"we can be a lifelong learner."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":507.262,"endTime":514.502,"body":"I, I also speak to a lot of students as"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":507.262,"endTime":514.502,"body":"well, and and they're in that learning"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":514.632,"endTime":521.392,"body":"phase and I try and encourage them"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":514.632,"endTime":521.392,"body":"to learn a little bit about the way"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":522.092,"endTime":526.552,"body":"the ah, the world works, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":522.092,"endTime":526.552,"body":"the way the economy works and the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":526.552,"endTime":528.592,"body":"way then the energy supports that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":529.212,"endTime":534.352,"body":"You know, because, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":529.212,"endTime":534.352,"body":"can't really operate or build"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":534.612,"endTime":536.512,"body":"or move anything without energy."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":536.852,"endTime":541.672,"body":"And so it's, it's part of every part"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":536.852,"endTime":541.672,"body":"of the economy you know, some way."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":542.092,"endTime":549.242,"body":"So we have to kind of, learn that and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":542.092,"endTime":549.242,"body":"learn how it is that that comes about."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":549.982,"endTime":558.537,"body":"And then also not get misled by some"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":549.982,"endTime":558.537,"body":"of these simplistic slogans where you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":558.537,"endTime":564.397,"body":"think, ah, in order to stop emissions,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":558.537,"endTime":564.397,"body":"you know, just stop oil when in fact,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":564.417,"endTime":569.007,"body":"you know, that moves like that would"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":564.417,"endTime":569.007,"body":"basically just stop people, you know?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":569.057,"endTime":572.697,"body":"It would stop hospitals, it would stop"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":569.057,"endTime":572.697,"body":"schools, it would stop everything."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":573.237,"endTime":575.047,"body":"But you can look at, you know, okay."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":575.907,"endTime":577.927,"body":"But how do you substitute?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":578.467,"endTime":583.287,"body":"So, you know, none of this is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":578.467,"endTime":583.287,"body":"really rocket science, but you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":583.287,"endTime":587.487,"body":"need a little bit of, of thought,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":583.287,"endTime":587.487,"body":"a little bit of understanding about"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":587.517,"endTime":588.567,"body":"kind of what needs to be done."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":588.667,"endTime":591.157,"body":"So there's that role"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":588.667,"endTime":591.157,"body":"as a lifelong learner."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":591.187,"endTime":592.797,"body":"That was the kind of number one."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":593.497,"endTime":596.667,"body":"Yeah, number two is, is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":593.497,"endTime":596.667,"body":"actually a role as a citizen."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":597.282,"endTime":598.742,"body":"You know, we do get to vote."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":598.762,"endTime":605.532,"body":"People do put up platforms of policy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":598.762,"endTime":605.532,"body":"and we can use more or less responsible"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":605.862,"endTime":608.062,"body":"environmental and energy policies."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":608.282,"endTime":610.862,"body":"And particularly with that knowledge as"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":608.282,"endTime":610.862,"body":"a lifelong learner, we can have a sense"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":610.862,"endTime":612.142,"body":"of what is responsible, what isn't."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":612.722,"endTime":613.662,"body":"So if there's that element."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":614.202,"endTime":617.807,"body":"We're actually consumers as well,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":617.937,"endTime":618.157,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":618.467,"endTime":623.927,"body":"As individuals, but"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":618.467,"endTime":623.927,"body":"we can become part, not as just of our"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":623.927,"endTime":625.687,"body":"individual choices, which are there."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":626.147,"endTime":628.087,"body":"You, you made the point"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":626.147,"endTime":628.087,"body":"about the heat pump."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":628.537,"endTime":632.557,"body":"You know, we can make that individual"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":628.537,"endTime":632.557,"body":"choice, but we can also look to be"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":632.557,"endTime":640.077,"body":"part of consumer movements that signal"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":632.557,"endTime":640.077,"body":"there's a real demand for something."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":641.027,"endTime":649.234,"body":"And so if I you know, just pass on a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":641.027,"endTime":649.234,"body":"an insight that is that more than 50%"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":649.534,"endTime":655.994,"body":"of greenhouse gas emissions actually"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":649.534,"endTime":655.994,"body":"derive from just eight supply chains,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":656.004,"endTime":658.434,"body":"eight value chains that touch us all,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":658.649,"endTime":658.999,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":659.114,"endTime":663.779,"body":"know, whether that's"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":659.114,"endTime":663.779,"body":"clothing, textiles, whether it is cars,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":664.089,"endTime":668.539,"body":"whether it's electronics or computers and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":664.089,"endTime":668.539,"body":"things that we're, we're, we're talking"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":668.539,"endTime":670.179,"body":"through, there's just eight of those."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":670.879,"endTime":675.819,"body":"And, and those are decisions we make"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":670.879,"endTime":675.819,"body":"individually, but you can signal that,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":675.999,"endTime":683.749,"body":"you know, well actually there's a market"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":675.999,"endTime":683.749,"body":"for low emissions footprint computers."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":684.489,"endTime":689.209,"body":"And then you know that that will then"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":684.489,"endTime":689.209,"body":"back up into, okay, well then you need"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":689.209,"endTime":691.089,"body":"to have, you want to serve that market."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":691.479,"endTime":695.895,"body":"It's attractive to serve that market,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":691.479,"endTime":695.895,"body":"but you, you then need to have uh, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":695.895,"endTime":699.855,"body":"know, low emissions, aluminum and low"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":695.895,"endTime":699.855,"body":"emissions, steel and low emissions,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":699.925,"endTime":701.775,"body":"lithium mining, et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":701.775,"endTime":703.615,"body":"It backs up the supply chain."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":704.035,"endTime":707.505,"body":"So that, that's a kind of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":704.035,"endTime":707.505,"body":"consumer element that we can do"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":707.505,"endTime":707.645,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":708.435,"endTime":714.175,"body":"The number four would"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":708.435,"endTime":714.175,"body":"be that, we have family and friends"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":714.475,"endTime":719.305,"body":"and colleagues, and we can take some"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":714.475,"endTime":719.305,"body":"of those insights like the eight"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":719.805,"endTime":723.805,"body":"supply chains that account for over"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":719.805,"endTime":723.805,"body":"half of emissions and talk about them."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":723.945,"endTime":727.445,"body":"You know, we, we can help"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":723.945,"endTime":727.445,"body":"create further understanding."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":728.305,"endTime":734.095,"body":"And then you know, I, I think you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":728.305,"endTime":734.095,"body":"finally, you know, if you you think"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":734.095,"endTime":736.975,"body":"of our, our roles in, in life."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":737.565,"endTime":744.015,"body":"Then beyond that, that social role"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":737.565,"endTime":744.015,"body":"you know, we have a role as, um,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":745.095,"endTime":747.355,"body":"you know, people with purpose."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":747.895,"endTime":753.915,"body":"And indeed you can make choices"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":747.895,"endTime":753.915,"body":"to really get involved in all"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":753.915,"endTime":757.075,"body":"these areas or to let it pass."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":757.535,"endTime":760.235,"body":"And, and so those are just a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":757.535,"endTime":760.235,"body":"few thoughts that I, I kind of."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":760.855,"endTime":763.3,"body":"Place with you and whoever"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":760.855,"endTime":763.3,"body":"your listeners are."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":763.65,"endTime":764.07,"body":"thanks."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":764.14,"endTime":764.99,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":765.45,"endTime":767.55,"body":"No, you, you make a, a,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":765.45,"endTime":767.55,"body":"a few good points there."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":767.55,"endTime":768.07,"body":"Definitely."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":768.61,"endTime":773.37,"body":"I, I think in terms of larger"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":768.61,"endTime":773.37,"body":"organizations, there are"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":774.07,"endTime":776.97,"body":"two things that move them."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":778.47,"endTime":784.175,"body":"One would be money, and the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":778.47,"endTime":784.175,"body":"other would be regulations."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":784.875,"endTime":790.455,"body":"And in terms of the money, well, customer"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":784.875,"endTime":790.455,"body":"demand is obviously a big signal there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":790.475,"endTime":797.295,"body":"to your demand signal point and obviously"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":790.475,"endTime":797.295,"body":"the price of goods in the supply chain."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":797.295,"endTime":799.329,"body":"But policy is the other one."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":799.329,"endTime":800.169,"body":"And regulations."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":800.949,"endTime":803.969,"body":"And I mean, that goes back"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":800.949,"endTime":803.969,"body":"to your point about voting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":804.934,"endTime":806.954,"body":"And I think I, it, it, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":804.934,"endTime":806.954,"body":"a point I've made on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":806.954,"endTime":809.234,"body":"podcast as well several times."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":809.954,"endTime":813.354,"body":"I think one of the most important"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":809.954,"endTime":813.354,"body":"things people can do as individuals"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":814.134,"endTime":819.314,"body":"is to actually prioritize climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":814.134,"endTime":819.314,"body":"when they go to the polling booth."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":820.094,"endTime":829.684,"body":"Now, unfortunately, in the last few"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":820.094,"endTime":829.684,"body":"elections here in Spain, there have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":829.777,"endTime":835.537,"body":"been very few mentions of climate by"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":829.777,"endTime":835.537,"body":"any party in the political campaigns."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":836.117,"endTime":842.857,"body":"So I don't know how we signal to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":836.117,"endTime":842.857,"body":"politicians that actually this is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":842.857,"endTime":849.377,"body":"something we want them to prioritize and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":842.857,"endTime":849.377,"body":"be talking about, but those who are should"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":849.377,"endTime":851.337,"body":"be the ones where we send our votes to."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":854.947,"endTime":855.167,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":855.307,"endTime":859.047,"body":"And you know, one of the aspects"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":855.307,"endTime":859.047,"body":"of politics, of course, is that it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":886.802,"endTime":889.687,"body":"deals with many different topics."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":889.9870000000001,"endTime":894.19,"body":"And so people will get packaging"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":889.9870000000001,"endTime":894.19,"body":"of policies or policy areas."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":894.72,"endTime":899.34,"body":"And so indeed it can be frustrating if"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":894.72,"endTime":899.34,"body":"you are interested in the environment,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":899.36,"endTime":904.22,"body":"but you're not seeing environment or"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":899.36,"endTime":904.22,"body":"energy being particularly significant."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":904.7600000000001,"endTime":907.9000000000001,"body":"But you can be part of the, the,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":904.7600000000001,"endTime":907.9000000000001,"body":"the areas that make it significant."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":908.647,"endTime":914.4000000000001,"body":"Let me share a, an interesting little"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":908.647,"endTime":914.4000000000001,"body":"personal anecdote from, I, I think it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":914.4000000000001,"endTime":921.7,"body":"was just last week where I, I was asked"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":914.4000000000001,"endTime":921.7,"body":"to share a panel a small panel, just"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":921.7,"endTime":927.7040000000001,"body":"two of us being interviewed for the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":921.7,"endTime":927.7040000000001,"body":"Hague University of Applied Sciences"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":928.2840000000001,"endTime":934.394,"body":"with a leading young lady in the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":928.2840000000001,"endTime":934.394,"body":"activist movement Extinction Rebellion."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":935.364,"endTime":943.634,"body":"And Extinction Rebellion had just"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":935.364,"endTime":943.634,"body":"been blocking the main road artery"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":944.1840000000001,"endTime":947.5340000000001,"body":"into the Hague, which is where the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":944.1840000000001,"endTime":947.5340000000001,"body":"central government center centre"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":947.5340000000001,"endTime":953.537,"body":"of government is in the Netherlands"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":947.5340000000001,"endTime":953.537,"body":"over several days, and it caused huge"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":953.6270000000001,"endTime":962.2570000000001,"body":"disruption, huge profile and it at least"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":953.6270000000001,"endTime":962.2570000000001,"body":"convinced the government to accelerate"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":962.797,"endTime":969.1700000000001,"body":"some changes in the way that energy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":962.797,"endTime":969.1700000000001,"body":"duties are levied in the Netherlands."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":970.2900000000001,"endTime":977.71,"body":"And so as well as the vote, which is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":970.2900000000001,"endTime":977.71,"body":"the best way you can be part of these"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":978.59,"endTime":983.62,"body":"citizens' movements that certainly"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":978.59,"endTime":983.62,"body":"first of all, you know, raise profile."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":983.8000000000001,"endTime":987.74,"body":"So, so it brings awareness"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":983.8000000000001,"endTime":987.74,"body":"but, you know, can have a, a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":987.74,"endTime":989.8950000000001,"body":"more direct influence as well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":990.1550000000001,"endTime":993.1750000000001,"body":"Now what what was kind of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":990.1550000000001,"endTime":993.1750000000001,"body":"interesting is that, that I think"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":993.595,"endTime":998.2550000000001,"body":"the university had tried to set up"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":993.595,"endTime":998.2550000000001,"body":"this platform to somehow have Mr."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":998.335,"endTime":1004.7620000000001,"body":"Grizzled old energy man and young"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":998.335,"endTime":1004.7620000000001,"body":"environmental activist lady in conflict"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1004.7620000000001,"endTime":1005.182,"body":"Head to head"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1005.3320000000001,"endTime":1009.7520000000001,"body":"But in fact, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1005.3320000000001,"endTime":1009.7520000000001,"body":"actually share the same long-term goal."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1010.572,"endTime":1015.542,"body":"We have may maybe different"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1010.572,"endTime":1015.542,"body":"contributions that we, that we make."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1016.162,"endTime":1021.942,"body":"And I would say that if you think about"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1016.162,"endTime":1021.942,"body":"you, you have to raise awareness and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1021.942,"endTime":1024.582,"body":"then you have to kind of understand"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1021.942,"endTime":1024.582,"body":"what needs to be done and then you have"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1024.582,"endTime":1026.102,"body":"to get it done, et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1026.522,"endTime":1029.172,"body":"What she's doing whilst, it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1026.522,"endTime":1029.172,"body":"might irritate a lot of people,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1029.752,"endTime":1031.812,"body":"is part of raising awareness."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1032.382,"endTime":1036.282,"body":"And what I'm involved is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1032.382,"endTime":1036.282,"body":"understanding what needs to be done"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1036.622,"endTime":1038.722,"body":"and helping to get people to do it."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1039.062,"endTime":1046.067,"body":"So we're I, in a sense allies and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1039.062,"endTime":1046.067,"body":"I think the the students kind of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1046.447,"endTime":1052.1770000000001,"body":"got that because I've seen a couple"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1046.447,"endTime":1052.1770000000001,"body":"of very positive LinkedIn posts"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1052.327,"endTime":1054.4170000000001,"body":"from students about that session."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1055.0420000000001,"endTime":1055.652,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1055.682,"endTime":1061.422,"body":"Yeah, no, I mean, I'm a, I'm a big fan"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1055.682,"endTime":1061.422,"body":"of the kind of things that Extinction"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1061.582,"endTime":1063.0620000000001,"body":"Rebellion are doing, I gotta say."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1063.222,"endTime":1066.942,"body":"I liken it very much to what"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1063.222,"endTime":1066.942,"body":"the suffragettes did back in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1066.942,"endTime":1068.262,"body":"early part of the last century."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1068.832,"endTime":1073.942,"body":"Their, their goal was very laudable,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1068.832,"endTime":1073.942,"body":"obviously, as is Extinction Rebellion's."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1074.112,"endTime":1079.377,"body":"Their methods are if, if I think of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1074.112,"endTime":1079.377,"body":"Extinction Rebellion, their, their"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1079.377,"endTime":1083.0040000000001,"body":"methods are quite tame compared to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1079.377,"endTime":1083.0040000000001,"body":"what the suffragettes were doing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1083.4840000000002,"endTime":1087.0040000000001,"body":"I mean, you saw the Suffragettes throwing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1083.4840000000002,"endTime":1087.0040000000001,"body":"themselves in front of racehorses"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1087.0240000000001,"endTime":1088.404,"body":"and in some cases being killed."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1088.944,"endTime":1091.394,"body":"You saw them burning libraries."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1091.414,"endTime":1094.452,"body":"You saw them bombing places."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1094.852,"endTime":1098.212,"body":"I, I forget exactly the, the where"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1094.852,"endTime":1098.212,"body":"they set off bombs, but, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1098.362,"endTime":1101.7720000000002,"body":"they weren't nearly as tame as what"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1098.362,"endTime":1101.7720000000002,"body":"Extinction Rebellion are doing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1101.7720000000002,"endTime":1106.332,"body":"Extinction rebellion, hold up traffic"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1101.7720000000002,"endTime":1106.332,"body":"and and spray buildings with orange"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1106.5420000000001,"endTime":1111.527,"body":"paint, which washes off, I mean, it,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1106.5420000000001,"endTime":1111.527,"body":"it, it's very tame in comparison."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1111.747,"endTime":1114.567,"body":"So I, I'm a huge fan of what"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1111.747,"endTime":1114.567,"body":"they're doing, I gotta say, because"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1114.747,"endTime":1117.127,"body":"it is gaining those headlines."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1117.227,"endTime":1123.344,"body":"It is bringing it onto news programs"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1117.227,"endTime":1123.344,"body":"so people are having that discussion."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1123.364,"endTime":1125.784,"body":"It is bringing it more into the limelight."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1128.6390000000001,"endTime":1128.8590000000002,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1128.959,"endTime":1133.779,"body":"And that's why I said I, I felt"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1128.959,"endTime":1133.779,"body":"we were odd allies in this."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1134.279,"endTime":1137.219,"body":"And at the same time, although I don't"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1134.279,"endTime":1137.219,"body":"think this is an Extinction Rebellion"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1137.319,"endTime":1144.395,"body":"slogan I'm, I get concerned when I"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1137.319,"endTime":1144.395,"body":"hear activists such as, certainly"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1144.795,"endTime":1150.26,"body":"you know, in the UK with this kind of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1144.795,"endTime":1150.26,"body":"simplistic, Just Stop Oil type of slogan."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1150.845,"endTime":1153.765,"body":"I, I, I, I get that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1150.845,"endTime":1153.765,"body":"Jeremy, but I, I think, I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1153.825,"endTime":1160.565,"body":"that's, there, there's a, there's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1153.825,"endTime":1160.565,"body":"a comms thing there, which says if"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1160.565,"endTime":1163.855,"body":"you get a simple three word slogan."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1165.4750000000001,"endTime":1167.135,"body":"It sticks in people's minds."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1167.565,"endTime":1168.815,"body":"It's obviously simplistic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1169.2050000000002,"endTime":1171.375,"body":"It's like, Get Brexit Done."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1172.015,"endTime":1174.6950000000002,"body":"I mean, that's a classic"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1172.015,"endTime":1174.6950000000002,"body":"example, three word slogan."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1174.875,"endTime":1179.4950000000001,"body":"Nobody thought that it was going to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1174.875,"endTime":1179.4950000000001,"body":"happen overnight or anything like that,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1180.2350000000001,"endTime":1182.095,"body":"but it's the same with Just Stop Oil."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1182.325,"endTime":1184.175,"body":"It's, it's a three word slogan."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1184.805,"endTime":1189.775,"body":"Very easy to remember, gets the message"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1184.805,"endTime":1189.775,"body":"out there, but nobody really believes"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1190.085,"endTime":1195.51,"body":"when they're saying that that it could be,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1190.085,"endTime":1195.51,"body":"you could turn the tap off straight away."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1195.5900000000001,"endTime":1198.43,"body":"I, I gotta think, I mean that to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1195.5900000000001,"endTime":1198.43,"body":"your point, it's very simplistic,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1198.89,"endTime":1201.67,"body":"but it's a strong message"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1198.89,"endTime":1201.67,"body":"which sticks in people's heads."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1202.21,"endTime":1205.99,"body":"And so it, it, i, it for, to my"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1202.21,"endTime":1205.99,"body":"mind, it, it's a comms thing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1206.21,"endTime":1211.03,"body":"The same way Get Brexit Done was to get"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1206.21,"endTime":1211.03,"body":"the message out there and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1211.13,"endTime":1215.0700000000002,"body":"to, to get on television shows and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1211.13,"endTime":1215.0700000000002,"body":"get on podcasts and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1217.305,"endTime":1220.105,"body":"A and then you've"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1217.305,"endTime":1220.105,"body":"gotta be a bit careful about when these"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1220.2350000000001,"endTime":1222.065,"body":"kinds of things can be misleading."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1222.525,"endTime":1226.905,"body":"So, we don't need to share our"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1222.525,"endTime":1226.905,"body":"opinions on just Get Brexit Done."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1227.285,"endTime":1230.425,"body":"As I mentioned, I'm"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1227.285,"endTime":1230.425,"body":"internationalist by choice."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1230.925,"endTime":1233.7350000000001,"body":"But know, the question is can it mislead?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1233.895,"endTime":1234.135,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1234.515,"endTime":1235.6950000000002,"body":"Can it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1234.515,"endTime":1235.6950000000002,"body":"kind of mislead the."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1236.68,"endTime":1240.66,"body":"And one of the things that I see"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1236.68,"endTime":1240.66,"body":"happening, and I've, I I've written"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1240.66,"endTime":1247.66,"body":"an article on this is that it directs"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1240.66,"endTime":1247.66,"body":"if you like, mob attention or mass"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1247.66,"endTime":1251.71,"body":"attention somehow to oil supply."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1252.52,"endTime":1260.41,"body":"And it doesn't direct attention to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1252.52,"endTime":1260.41,"body":"the way oil is part of the economy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1260.71,"endTime":1262.29,"body":"and that that needs to be changed."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1262.29,"endTime":1265.8500000000001,"body":"Because we see when you get"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1262.29,"endTime":1265.8500000000001,"body":"disruptions, like what happened at"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1265.8500000000001,"endTime":1272.2,"body":"the beginning of the Russia, Ukraine"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1265.8500000000001,"endTime":1272.2,"body":"war, you get this huge peak in prices"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1272.31,"endTime":1276.48,"body":"when you get a supply disruption"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1272.31,"endTime":1276.48,"body":"without any demand side activity."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1277.18,"endTime":1282.76,"body":"And ultimately, again, it's the poorest"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1277.18,"endTime":1282.76,"body":"in society who suffer most from that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1283.46,"endTime":1286.64,"body":"And so it doesn't take you anywhere"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1283.46,"endTime":1286.64,"body":"and it just, you might as well"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1286.64,"endTime":1288.88,"body":"just say, just punish the poor."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1289.42,"endTime":1293.96,"body":"So, you know, that's . And so why I'm"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1289.42,"endTime":1293.96,"body":"trying to, you know, it will never"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1293.96,"endTime":1298.89,"body":"work in the mass market, but for people"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1293.96,"endTime":1298.89,"body":"to just say, Just Substitute Oil,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1299.45,"endTime":1302.65,"body":"'cause at least it makes you think"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1299.45,"endTime":1302.65,"body":"about, well substitute it for what,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1302.71,"endTime":1307.1200000000001,"body":"or substitute it how and I think that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1302.71,"endTime":1307.1200000000001,"body":"that's a more powerful statement or a,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1307.44,"endTime":1311.99,"body":"a, a better statement rather than what"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1307.44,"endTime":1311.99,"body":"is equivalent to just punish the poor"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1311.99,"endTime":1312.5900000000001,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1312.65,"endTime":1313.23,"body":"No, no, no."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1313.27,"endTime":1316.99,"body":"I mean, to, to your point about the,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1313.27,"endTime":1316.99,"body":"the price hike at the start of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1316.99,"endTime":1321.15,"body":"Russian War, there wouldn't have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1316.99,"endTime":1321.15,"body":"been a price spike at the start of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1321.15,"endTime":1324.67,"body":"the Russian War had there been an"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1321.15,"endTime":1324.67,"body":"easy alternative, readily available."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1325.53,"endTime":1330.25,"body":"So the, the, the issue, the, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1325.53,"endTime":1330.25,"body":"issue with Just Stop Oil is yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1330.31,"endTime":1333.73,"body":"we could stop it tomorrow if there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1330.31,"endTime":1333.73,"body":"was a readily available alternative."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1334.23,"endTime":1338.53,"body":"So what we need to do is ramp up"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1334.23,"endTime":1338.53,"body":"the readily available alternatives"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1338.53,"endTime":1339.81,"body":"so that we can Just Stop Oil."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1341.0800000000002,"endTime":1341.3700000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1342.24,"endTime":1342.56,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1343.2,"endTime":1343.44,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1343.54,"endTime":1350.06,"body":"And so, you know, it's you know, the real"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1343.54,"endTime":1350.06,"body":"challenge that we need to wrestle with is,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1350.28,"endTime":1359.2450000000001,"body":"you know, how we wrestle down demand for"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1350.28,"endTime":1359.2450000000001,"body":"fossil based fuels as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1359.825,"endTime":1364.4450000000002,"body":"And you know, we kind of understand that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1364.9850000000001,"endTime":1369.285,"body":"But I know from my, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1364.9850000000001,"endTime":1369.285,"body":"scenario work, 'cause I, I, I led"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1370.005,"endTime":1375.515,"body":"scenario work from you know, the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1370.005,"endTime":1375.515,"body":"mid, you know, 2006 o onwards."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1375.775,"endTime":1380.9950000000001,"body":"So I'm able to now look back, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1375.775,"endTime":1380.9950000000001,"body":"over 15 years at kind of how we thought"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1380.9950000000001,"endTime":1382.915,"body":"then and, and, and how we think now."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1383.405,"endTime":1388.459,"body":"And yeah, at that time I led"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1383.405,"endTime":1388.459,"body":"the development of two scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1388.8890000000001,"endTime":1390.539,"body":"that people still talk about."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1390.779,"endTime":1393.579,"body":"'cause they had, you know, good"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1390.779,"endTime":1393.579,"body":"names to help think about things."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1393.679,"endTime":1397.1390000000001,"body":"So they were called"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1393.679,"endTime":1397.1390000000001,"body":"Scramble, and Blueprints."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1397.479,"endTime":1406.8890000000001,"body":"And essentially Scramble considered what"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1397.479,"endTime":1406.8890000000001,"body":"was kind of the most sluggish way that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1406.909,"endTime":1413.299,"body":"energy transitions could develop over time"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1406.909,"endTime":1413.299,"body":"and Blueprints with an s that's important."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1413.299,"endTime":1416.979,"body":"I'll come back to that, maybe"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1413.299,"endTime":1416.979,"body":"later, was the most accelerated"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1417.079,"endTime":1418.259,"body":"way you could envisage."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1418.5990000000002,"endTime":1424.489,"body":"And then, and looking back after, 15"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1418.5990000000002,"endTime":1424.489,"body":"years, you know, what you actually"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1424.589,"endTime":1430.1190000000001,"body":"saw was that what has happened"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1424.589,"endTime":1430.1190000000001,"body":"over that time period on some"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1430.1190000000001,"endTime":1432.079,"body":"of the techno economic aspects."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1433.189,"endTime":1437.719,"body":"It's been as much progress as Blueprints."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1438.339,"endTime":1442.934,"body":"So you know, the takeoff of battery"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1438.339,"endTime":1442.934,"body":"electric passenger vehicles,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1443.554,"endTime":1448.854,"body":"the takeoff of wind and offshore"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1443.554,"endTime":1448.854,"body":"wind, the takeoff of solar."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1449.354,"endTime":1454.624,"body":"So those techno economic aspects"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1449.354,"endTime":1454.624,"body":"have grown explosively as they"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1454.624,"endTime":1456.344,"body":"did in the Blueprints outlook"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1456.344,"endTime":1456.414,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1456.434,"endTime":1460.624,"body":"But a lot of the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1456.434,"endTime":1460.624,"body":"socio political side, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1460.624,"endTime":1466.584,"body":"those choices that we make as people"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1460.624,"endTime":1466.584,"body":"have been as sluggish as Scramble."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1466.6290000000001,"endTime":1466.929,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1467.5990000000002,"endTime":1469.6190000000001,"body":"And, and that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1467.5990000000002,"endTime":1469.6190000000001,"body":"kind of tells you something"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1469.6190000000001,"endTime":1471.3790000000001,"body":"about you need to do both."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1472.039,"endTime":1476.299,"body":"But a particular amount of attention"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1472.039,"endTime":1476.299,"body":"needs to go into that sociopolitical side."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1476.759,"endTime":1478.8590000000002,"body":"But you know, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1476.759,"endTime":1478.8590000000002,"body":"things are happening."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1478.8590000000002,"endTime":1479.659,"body":"Things do happen."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1479.8790000000001,"endTime":1484.439,"body":"So, if you were to have the more"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1479.8790000000001,"endTime":1484.439,"body":"Blueprints type outlook, then what"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1484.439,"endTime":1492.6290000000001,"body":"would've happened at the Paris"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1484.439,"endTime":1492.6290000000001,"body":"Cop at the end of 2015, would've"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1492.8690000000001,"endTime":1495.299,"body":"happened at the Copenhagen COP"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1495.299,"endTime":1495.669,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1495.669,"endTime":1497.479,"body":"in 2009."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1497.809,"endTime":1498.8690000000001,"body":"It so it happened."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1498.8890000000001,"endTime":1500.309,"body":"It just happened later."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1500.689,"endTime":1501.1090000000002,"body":"Slower."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1501.769,"endTime":1504.189,"body":"And you see that in a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1501.769,"endTime":1504.189,"body":"number of different ways."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1504.769,"endTime":1511.009,"body":"So we can see, I can see the ball"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1504.769,"endTime":1511.009,"body":"rolling now in a number of different"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1511.009,"endTime":1513.689,"body":"areas, which is really kind of positive."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1514.1490000000001,"endTime":1518.1090000000002,"body":"It's just a shame, but we"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1514.1490000000001,"endTime":1518.1090000000002,"body":"can't go back in history that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1518.1090000000002,"endTime":1520.1090000000002,"body":"it didn't happen 10 years ago."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1520.319,"endTime":1520.6090000000002,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1523.1190000000001,"endTime":1526.3690000000001,"body":"Talk to me a little bit because"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1523.1190000000001,"endTime":1526.3690000000001,"body":"this isn't a discussion we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1526.3690000000001,"endTime":1527.569,"body":"had on the podcast so far."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1527.719,"endTime":1531.8490000000002,"body":"Talk to me a little bit about the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1527.719,"endTime":1531.8490000000002,"body":"importance of scenarios, Jeremy, because"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1531.8790000000001,"endTime":1535.449,"body":"it's, it's an area, as you say, you've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1531.8790000000001,"endTime":1535.449,"body":"been working in for at least 15 years now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1535.909,"endTime":1540.969,"body":"So why are scenarios important and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1535.909,"endTime":1540.969,"body":"what can you achieve through them?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1543.394,"endTime":1544.0040000000001,"body":"Okay, no thanks."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1544.034,"endTime":1546.7740000000001,"body":"Well, yeah, it's, it's probably,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1544.034,"endTime":1546.7740000000001,"body":"it's more than 15 years now."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1546.874,"endTime":1550.154,"body":"'cause I'm still co-chair of scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1546.874,"endTime":1550.154,"body":"for the World Energy Council."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1550.5240000000001,"endTime":1552.2240000000002,"body":"So I'm still involved in that activity."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1552.924,"endTime":1553.944,"body":"Let me frame it this way."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1555.464,"endTime":1561.344,"body":"You know, our world is being driven"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1555.464,"endTime":1561.344,"body":"by very, very powerful currents,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1561.694,"endTime":1566.824,"body":"whether those are political currents"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1561.694,"endTime":1566.824,"body":"or economic currents, technological"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1567.0240000000001,"endTime":1572.904,"body":"currents, social currents, environmental"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1567.0240000000001,"endTime":1572.904,"body":"currents and, and every current that is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1572.904,"endTime":1575.644,"body":"strong also generates countercurrents."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1575.954,"endTime":1579.294,"body":"And so you've got this mix of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1575.954,"endTime":1579.294,"body":"currents and countercurrents and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1580.034,"endTime":1584.574,"body":"in advance, it is impossible to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1580.034,"endTime":1584.574,"body":"tell which will be strongest."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1584.884,"endTime":1585.174,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1585.674,"endTime":1590.419,"body":"So there's always"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1585.674,"endTime":1590.419,"body":"alternative outcomes that are plausible."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1591.439,"endTime":1597.059,"body":"And we have to understand that if"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1591.439,"endTime":1597.059,"body":"we're going to engage appropriately"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1597.729,"endTime":1601.919,"body":"with the future, if we're going"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1597.729,"endTime":1601.919,"body":"to explore the future, well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1602.339,"endTime":1608.199,"body":"In fact, it's such kind of fundamental"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1602.339,"endTime":1608.199,"body":"part of reality that if we ignore it, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1608.199,"endTime":1610.519,"body":"know, we're effectively just being lazy."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1610.809,"endTime":1614.679,"body":"We're doing lazy strategy, we're"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1610.809,"endTime":1614.679,"body":"doing lazy decision making."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1614.729,"endTime":1616.439,"body":"We're lazy in our judgment."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1616.979,"endTime":1621.3490000000002,"body":"So in that sense, scenario mindset"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1616.979,"endTime":1621.3490000000002,"body":"doesn't necessarily mean kind of well"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1621.3490000000002,"endTime":1627.3990000000001,"body":"written out books with lots of tables and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1621.3490000000002,"endTime":1627.3990000000001,"body":"figures, but that scenario mindset is,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1627.739,"endTime":1634.0990000000002,"body":"is fundamental and you need to kind of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1627.739,"endTime":1634.0990000000002,"body":"take your decisions with that in mind."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1634.3590000000002,"endTime":1637.949,"body":"The way that a lot of people, a lot"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1634.3590000000002,"endTime":1637.949,"body":"of companies, a lot of governments"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1637.949,"endTime":1642.909,"body":"take decisions is that they try to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1637.949,"endTime":1642.909,"body":"focus on what they think is some kind"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1642.909,"endTime":1650.269,"body":"of fantasy, most likely outlook, and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1642.909,"endTime":1650.269,"body":"then optimize to that or add some kind"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1650.269,"endTime":1655.6190000000001,"body":"of, dubious probabilities to something"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1650.269,"endTime":1655.6190000000001,"body":"and effectively average that way and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1656.019,"endTime":1662.519,"body":"optimize to that, whereas a much more"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1656.019,"endTime":1662.519,"body":"balanced approach is to look at these"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1663.314,"endTime":1670.5320000000002,"body":"different outlooks that are plausible and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1663.314,"endTime":1670.5320000000002,"body":"do what I refer to as minimize regret."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1671.152,"endTime":1675.212,"body":"And so you might have a regret, which"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1671.152,"endTime":1675.212,"body":"is a lot of loss, or you might have a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1675.212,"endTime":1676.7720000000002,"body":"regret that's missing a big opportunity."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1676.7720000000002,"endTime":1679.452,"body":"They're both regrets, so you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1676.7720000000002,"endTime":1679.452,"body":"can balance them up as regrets."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1680.0620000000001,"endTime":1687.472,"body":"But what you're doing is having a much"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1680.0620000000001,"endTime":1687.472,"body":"broader recognition of how the future"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1687.5220000000002,"endTime":1695.007,"body":"might be, trying to make wise decisions"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1687.5220000000002,"endTime":1695.007,"body":"within that, potentially also recognizing"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1695.007,"endTime":1697.487,"body":"where you are an agent in that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1698.23,"endTime":1703.65,"body":"How the choices you make may be affecting"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1698.23,"endTime":1703.65,"body":"the choices that others make as well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1704.03,"endTime":1709.04,"body":"So I kind of like to say that the, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1704.03,"endTime":1709.04,"body":"know, the scenario mindset is fundamental"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1709.3,"endTime":1713.4,"body":"for the reasons that I said, but also"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1709.3,"endTime":1713.4,"body":"secondary in the sense that it is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1713.4,"endTime":1716.52,"body":"there to help you make wiser decisions."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1716.8300000000002,"endTime":1720.64,"body":"It's a means to an end, and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1716.8300000000002,"endTime":1720.64,"body":"that end is wiser choices."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1721.1000000000001,"endTime":1722.28,"body":"Does that kind of make sense"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1722.28,"endTime":1722.4,"body":"to you?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1722.4,"endTime":1722.5900000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1722.5900000000001,"endTime":1723.105,"body":"No, it does."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1723.305,"endTime":1731.185,"body":"I mean it essentially, you are taking into"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1723.305,"endTime":1731.185,"body":"account much, many more possibilities,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1731.545,"endTime":1735.7050000000002,"body":"I gotta think when you're doing kind of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1731.545,"endTime":1735.7050000000002,"body":"scenario based planning, rather than just"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1735.7050000000002,"endTime":1737.585,"body":"going, okay, no, we're gonna do this."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1738.325,"endTime":1745.449,"body":"So if you're taking in more potential"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1738.325,"endTime":1745.449,"body":"possibilities than you're hopefully making"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1745.529,"endTime":1746.769,"body":"a better decision at the end of the day."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1748.8890000000001,"endTime":1751.699,"body":"Yes, and, and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1748.8890000000001,"endTime":1751.699,"body":"also, it's very important because"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1754.287,"endTime":1755.777,"body":"there's two crafts in this."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1756.4070000000002,"endTime":1760.6570000000002,"body":"There's a, a technical"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1756.4070000000002,"endTime":1760.6570000000002,"body":"craft and a social craft."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1761.1970000000001,"endTime":1763.297,"body":"I'm gonna say a little bit"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1761.1970000000001,"endTime":1763.297,"body":"about both of them if I can."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1763.757,"endTime":1770.097,"body":"You know, ultimately you're, you're trying"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1763.757,"endTime":1770.097,"body":"to surface important fresh insights and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1770.097,"endTime":1772.057,"body":"bring them to life in the minds of others."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1773.0220000000002,"endTime":1776.082,"body":"And so there's that element that's"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1773.0220000000002,"endTime":1776.082,"body":"surfacing the insights, which is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1776.082,"endTime":1779.442,"body":"kind of like the technical craft and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1776.082,"endTime":1779.442,"body":"then them bringing them to life in"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1779.442,"endTime":1783.202,"body":"the minds and hearts and decisions"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1779.442,"endTime":1783.202,"body":"of others, is a actually a, a social"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1783.502,"endTime":1785.682,"body":"or a psychological craft almost."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1786.212,"endTime":1793.0620000000001,"body":"Now if I just say something on that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1786.212,"endTime":1793.0620000000001,"body":"technical craft a lot of the uncertainties"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1793.842,"endTime":1802.402,"body":"are associated with the way that choices"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1793.842,"endTime":1802.402,"body":"are made by individuals or by governments"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1802.582,"endTime":1809.2920000000001,"body":"or by businesses or whatever and those"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1802.582,"endTime":1809.2920000000001,"body":"choices are in a sense they're not"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1809.2920000000001,"endTime":1810.7720000000002,"body":"random, but neither are they predictable."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1810.7720000000002,"endTime":1811.652,"body":"People are people."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1811.747,"endTime":1811.967,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1811.997,"endTime":1812.287,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1812.5520000000001,"endTime":1818.492,"body":"And so you have to really"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1812.5520000000001,"endTime":1818.492,"body":"grapple with very different perspectives."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1819.527,"endTime":1821.787,"body":"So you've gotta be"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1819.527,"endTime":1821.787,"body":"humble and go out there."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1822.007,"endTime":1826.477,"body":"And for instance, you, if you thought of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1822.007,"endTime":1826.477,"body":"me as you know, a big corporate energy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1826.577,"endTime":1832.117,"body":"man, I better be listening to that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1826.577,"endTime":1832.117,"body":"young lady from Extinction Rebellion"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1832.337,"endTime":1837.1570000000002,"body":"and her perspective and how she sees"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1832.337,"endTime":1837.1570000000002,"body":"the world and, and, and understand that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1837.577,"endTime":1843.9170000000001,"body":"So, it, it brings you into a position"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1837.577,"endTime":1843.9170000000001,"body":"where you recognize that the horizons of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1843.9170000000001,"endTime":1848.727,"body":"others are different to your own horizon."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1849.387,"endTime":1854.63,"body":"The behavioral economists speak"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1849.387,"endTime":1854.63,"body":"about what you see is all there is."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1854.8400000000001,"endTime":1857.3,"body":"We kind of know that's not true,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1854.8400000000001,"endTime":1857.3,"body":"but we behave as though it is."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1857.56,"endTime":1858.9,"body":"So it's taking you beyond that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1859.5900000000001,"endTime":1865.03,"body":"And I think that's really, really"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1859.5900000000001,"endTime":1865.03,"body":"important because it, it affects not"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1865.03,"endTime":1870.06,"body":"just the quality of, of the scenarios"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1865.03,"endTime":1870.06,"body":"you are dealing with, but it affects"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1870.2,"endTime":1872.66,"body":"how you are dealing with other people."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1873.0800000000002,"endTime":1874.8600000000001,"body":"Are you really listening?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1874.92,"endTime":1876.42,"body":"Are you really paying attention?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1876.8400000000001,"endTime":1881.7,"body":"Are you really understanding that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1876.8400000000001,"endTime":1881.7,"body":"perspective and seeing what that might"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1881.7,"endTime":1883.88,"body":"have what effect that, that might have."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1883.94,"endTime":1888.1200000000001,"body":"So that was just a another little"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1883.94,"endTime":1888.1200000000001,"body":"important part of the the technical craft."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1888.22,"endTime":1891.3200000000002,"body":"And then, you know, that leads you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1888.22,"endTime":1891.3200000000002,"body":"almost naturally into that social"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1891.49,"endTime":1896.304,"body":"craft because effectively you're trying"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1891.49,"endTime":1896.304,"body":"to create a, a learning environment."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1897.699,"endTime":1901.8790000000001,"body":"And and every senior leader I ever"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1897.699,"endTime":1901.8790000000001,"body":"met, whether it was in my company"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1902.0990000000002,"endTime":1907.5990000000002,"body":"or many, many outside in government,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1902.0990000000002,"endTime":1907.5990000000002,"body":"or other major organizations would"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1907.5990000000002,"endTime":1909.6390000000001,"body":"tell you, Hey, I'm open to learn."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1909.789,"endTime":1911.719,"body":"It's, it's a sort of a,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1909.789,"endTime":1911.719,"body":"one of those mantras."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1912.299,"endTime":1917.029,"body":"What I also learned was that none"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1912.299,"endTime":1917.029,"body":"of them are open to be taught."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1918.324,"endTime":1921.174,"body":"They're senior, they're successful."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1921.434,"endTime":1925.534,"body":"You know, they kind of really"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1921.434,"endTime":1925.534,"body":"believe, they know it already."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1926.4740000000002,"endTime":1930.534,"body":"And so you've gotta create"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1926.4740000000002,"endTime":1930.534,"body":"circumstances where they do learn,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1930.904,"endTime":1932.4940000000001,"body":"where they learn from themselves."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1932.954,"endTime":1936.534,"body":"So you, you, you bring them"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1932.954,"endTime":1936.534,"body":"to a place, into a journey."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1936.634,"endTime":1939.094,"body":"You meet them where they are with"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1936.634,"endTime":1939.094,"body":"what's on the top of their minds,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1939.314,"endTime":1943.7740000000001,"body":"and then help create circumstances"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1939.314,"endTime":1943.7740000000001,"body":"in which they can learn and then make"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1943.7740000000001,"endTime":1945.374,"body":"the wiser judgements we spoke about."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1946.159,"endTime":1946.449,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1946.919,"endTime":1947.209,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1948.079,"endTime":1948.3690000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1949.239,"endTime":1950.329,"body":"Leading them by the nose."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1950.489,"endTime":1950.8890000000001,"body":"I got it."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1953.2740000000001,"endTime":1957.534,"body":"No, no, but, but you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1953.2740000000001,"endTime":1957.534,"body":"are, there is an ethical aspect to it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1957.534,"endTime":1964.7740000000001,"body":"because ultimately you are trying to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1957.534,"endTime":1964.7740000000001,"body":"help enrich the mindset of other people."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1965.314,"endTime":1967.2540000000001,"body":"And you know, that can be a manipulation."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1967.674,"endTime":1971.7740000000001,"body":"So you've gotta think about, okay, am"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1967.674,"endTime":1971.7740000000001,"body":"I doing this for the right reasons?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1971.8990000000001,"endTime":1971.979,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1972.384,"endTime":1975.164,"body":"Am I doing this"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1972.384,"endTime":1975.164,"body":"in a way that actually benefits"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1975.414,"endTime":1977.124,"body":"those that you are affecting?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1977.424,"endTime":1981.4840000000002,"body":"And so there is a, an an ethical"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1977.424,"endTime":1981.4840000000002,"body":"aspect to that kind of of work."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1981.944,"endTime":1988.7340000000002,"body":"But ultimately, you know, I'm still let"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1981.944,"endTime":1988.7340000000002,"body":"me say a combination of naive enough or"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1989.174,"endTime":1994.374,"body":"arrogant enough to believe I can still"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1989.174,"endTime":1994.374,"body":"make a contribution to promoting a better"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1994.444,"endTime":1996.374,"body":"life for people with a healthy planet."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1997.114,"endTime":2001.204,"body":"And in that, you know, I've"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":1997.114,"endTime":2001.204,"body":"gotta help people often see"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2001.2240000000002,"endTime":2004.284,"body":"the world a bit differently to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2001.2240000000002,"endTime":2004.284,"body":"the way they see it currently."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2004.784,"endTime":2010.454,"body":"And that scenario mindset is helpful to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2004.784,"endTime":2010.454,"body":"me in doing that, but introducing that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2010.454,"endTime":2016.064,"body":"mindset to others is helpful in making"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2010.454,"endTime":2016.064,"body":"them more open to that learning process."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2016.294,"endTime":2016.674,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2018.9840000000002,"endTime":2028.394,"body":"Who, who do you think needs to be given"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2018.9840000000002,"endTime":2028.394,"body":"that kind of scenario mindset, or who"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2028.694,"endTime":2035.2340000000002,"body":"do you think you need to influence most"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2028.694,"endTime":2035.2340000000002,"body":"to kind of make the changes that we need"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2035.2340000000002,"endTime":2037.034,"body":"to make, to get to where we need to be?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2039.7340000000002,"endTime":2041.7340000000002,"body":"Hmm,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2039.7340000000002,"endTime":2041.7340000000002,"body":"that's that's interesting."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2041.7540000000001,"endTime":2044.454,"body":"And, and there's a, an aspect of it."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2044.714,"endTime":2047.784,"body":"First of all, I, the easy answer is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2044.714,"endTime":2047.784,"body":"kind of, everybody needs to think"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2047.784,"endTime":2050.424,"body":"this way because this is the only"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2047.784,"endTime":2050.424,"body":"way to think about the future."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2050.614,"endTime":2050.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2050.924,"endTime":2052.104,"body":"So, so there is that aspect."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2052.484,"endTime":2059.15,"body":"But you know, clearly I've spent much"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2052.484,"endTime":2059.15,"body":"of my last 20 years engaging with"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2059.41,"endTime":2063.71,"body":"senior leaders in industry and senior"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2059.41,"endTime":2063.71,"body":"leaders in government, and we know"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2064.23,"endTime":2068.62,"body":"industry and government are important"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2064.23,"endTime":2068.62,"body":"actors in what we're talking about."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2069.35,"endTime":2073.13,"body":"You know, so I still think, I still"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2069.35,"endTime":2073.13,"body":"look to kind of reach out there."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2074.15,"endTime":2077.25,"body":"But again, earlier I, I, I"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2074.15,"endTime":2077.25,"body":"mentioned those different roles"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2077.8,"endTime":2079.61,"body":"that we can have as individuals."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2080.125,"endTime":2085.439,"body":"So we may not be a senior leader"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2080.125,"endTime":2085.439,"body":"in industry or, or, or government"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2085.929,"endTime":2087.285,"body":"but we're still an agent."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2087.705,"endTime":2089.645,"body":"We still make choices."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2091.385,"endTime":2096.665,"body":"And if we can see these different"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2091.385,"endTime":2096.665,"body":"possibilities and understand what they"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2096.665,"endTime":2102.985,"body":"are and what our individual role can"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2096.665,"endTime":2102.985,"body":"be indeed, you know, to say, well, okay"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2103.445,"endTime":2105.855,"body":"this issue needs to be highlighted."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2106.645,"endTime":2111.205,"body":"I can highlight this by joining"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2106.645,"endTime":2111.205,"body":"this citizen's movement or"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2111.205,"endTime":2112.8450000000003,"body":"supporting this citizen's movement."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2113.225,"endTime":2119.405,"body":"Or it can be in the area of I do see"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2113.225,"endTime":2119.405,"body":"the need for more younger people to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2119.585,"endTime":2126.415,"body":"be educated in this area so I can give"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2119.585,"endTime":2126.415,"body":"support to places like the United World"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2126.535,"endTime":2133.255,"body":"Colleges that are seeking to educate young"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2126.535,"endTime":2133.255,"body":"people in some of these issues as well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2133.795,"endTime":2138.495,"body":"And I mentioned earlier that consumer"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2133.795,"endTime":2138.495,"body":"side and being part of consumer movements,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2138.915,"endTime":2142.725,"body":"and so it's it's really of, of benefit."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2143.475,"endTime":2147.6150000000002,"body":"to everybody and it can be"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2143.475,"endTime":2147.6150000000002,"body":"applied in this area by everybody."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2148.025,"endTime":2152.185,"body":"know, clearly, most immediately I"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2148.025,"endTime":2152.185,"body":"like to influence the people who"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2152.185,"endTime":2155.985,"body":"are making the immediate decisions"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2152.185,"endTime":2155.985,"body":"and, you know, big investments."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2156.275,"endTime":2159.515,"body":"Even if you start thinking of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2156.275,"endTime":2159.515,"body":"them now, they're only actually an"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2159.515,"endTime":2161.755,"body":"operation in five to 10 years time."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2162.175,"endTime":2163.515,"body":"So you're, you're trying to do that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2164.29,"endTime":2168.31,"body":"But even more broadly can, can I show"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2164.29,"endTime":2168.31,"body":"you share with you an example, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2168.31,"endTime":2174.19,"body":"know, from my own life, nothing to do"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2168.31,"endTime":2174.19,"body":"with environment or climate, but very"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2174.2000000000003,"endTime":2183.79,"body":"early in my career I was called to the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2174.2000000000003,"endTime":2183.79,"body":"office of my boss's boss's boss's boss"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2184.48,"endTime":2184.59,"body":"Whoa."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2184.59,"endTime":2184.98,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2185.2400000000002,"endTime":2187.4,"body":"I didn't even know that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2185.2400000000002,"endTime":2187.4,"body":"such a person existed."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2187.76,"endTime":2189.84,"body":"I mean, a big organization."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2190.58,"endTime":2198.09,"body":"My reference indicator in the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2190.58,"endTime":2198.09,"body":"organization at that time was MFD 3326."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2198.66,"endTime":2204.56,"body":"So given that there were some people with"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2198.66,"endTime":2204.56,"body":"the indicator MF, you can see how far"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2204.67,"endTime":2206.7200000000003,"body":"down, you know, the line that I was there."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2207.06,"endTime":2211.23,"body":"But it was all about something"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2207.06,"endTime":2211.23,"body":"that I'd mentioned to my boss"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2211.29,"endTime":2214.75,"body":"and talking about, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2211.29,"endTime":2214.75,"body":"kinds of job I'd like to do next."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2215.21,"endTime":2219.43,"body":"And there used to be a, a, a, a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2215.21,"endTime":2219.43,"body":"particular pathways through the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2219.43,"endTime":2224.097,"body":"company for young engineers, which"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2219.43,"endTime":2224.097,"body":"is kind of what I was at the time."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2224.437,"endTime":2229.7670000000003,"body":"And I I felt my heart and my contributions"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2224.437,"endTime":2229.7670000000003,"body":"would be better somewhere else,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2229.7670000000003,"endTime":2232.167,"body":"somewhere more broadly in the area."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2232.747,"endTime":2236.407,"body":"And so I was called to my boss', boss',"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2232.747,"endTime":2236.407,"body":"boss' boss, and he said, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2236.407,"endTime":2240.574,"body":"Jeremy, it's come to my notice that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2236.407,"endTime":2240.574,"body":"you may be interested in something."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2241.114,"endTime":2243.014,"body":"An opportunity has come up."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2243.434,"endTime":2246.164,"body":"We I don't know whether this fits"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2243.434,"endTime":2246.164,"body":"what you were thinking or not"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2246.6240000000003,"endTime":2248.074,"body":"but I'll tell you what it is."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2248.709,"endTime":2253.2490000000003,"body":"The only thing is you have to decide"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2248.709,"endTime":2253.2490000000003,"body":"here and now whether you're going to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2253.2490000000003,"endTime":2257.009,"body":"take it because it's already at the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2253.2490000000003,"endTime":2257.009,"body":"point of being offered to somebody else"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2257.074,"endTime":2257.234,"body":"wow."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2258.549,"endTime":2258.7690000000002,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2259.359,"endTime":2259.649,"body":"Whoa."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2259.949,"endTime":2263.809,"body":"Now the good thing was because I've"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2259.949,"endTime":2263.809,"body":"been thinking through these different"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2263.839,"endTime":2269.629,"body":"possibilities I recognized, ah, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2263.839,"endTime":2269.629,"body":"this has some of those features."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2270.209,"endTime":2272.669,"body":"Now of course it will mean,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2270.209,"endTime":2272.669,"body":"you know, changes in where I'll"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2272.789,"endTime":2276.949,"body":"probably end up working, changes"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2272.789,"endTime":2276.949,"body":"for my wife and family, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2276.949,"endTime":2281.2690000000002,"body":"There was a lot of things there, but"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2276.949,"endTime":2281.2690000000002,"body":"because I'd actually spent some time"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2281.429,"endTime":2285.789,"body":"thinking through different possibilities,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2281.429,"endTime":2285.789,"body":"I was able to sort of say, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2285.789,"endTime":2290.504,"body":"there and then well, having thought"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2285.789,"endTime":2290.504,"body":"about it, I think this is right, so"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2290.504,"endTime":2292.834,"body":"please go ahead and offer it to me."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2293.574,"endTime":2298.754,"body":"And yeah, I got a, a reputation for being"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2293.574,"endTime":2298.754,"body":"a quick decision maker, which was not"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2298.754,"endTime":2303.434,"body":"fair because I've never really been a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2298.754,"endTime":2303.434,"body":"quick decision maker, but I was really"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2303.434,"endTime":2309.054,"body":"helped, by that,  what I later thought"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2303.434,"endTime":2309.054,"body":"of is that scenario mindset of having"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2309.204,"endTime":2315.054,"body":"kind of thought about the future and how"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2309.204,"endTime":2315.054,"body":"it might relate to my immediate future."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2315.524,"endTime":2317.254,"body":"Just a, a little anecdote."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2317.594,"endTime":2317.884,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2318.424,"endTime":2323.284,"body":"I'd love to chase down the, how does"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2318.424,"endTime":2323.284,"body":"one develop a scenario mindset, but"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2323.724,"endTime":2324.964,"body":"I don't think we have time for that."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2324.984,"endTime":2327.844,"body":"And it goes a little bit off topic,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2324.984,"endTime":2327.844,"body":"but here's, here's a slightly"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2327.844,"endTime":2328.924,"body":"different question for you, Jeremy."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2331.14,"endTime":2338.0,"body":"You have now 'cause I've got a magic"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2331.14,"endTime":2338.0,"body":"wand, all the power in the world, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2338.0,"endTime":2342.88,"body":"you have to help the world decarbonize"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2338.0,"endTime":2342.88,"body":"in the shortest possible time."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2344.66,"endTime":2347.46,"body":"Go . What do you do?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2350.07,"endTime":2350.36,"body":"Well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2352.655,"endTime":2355.8650000000002,"body":"I'll, I'll just sketch something out"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2352.655,"endTime":2355.8650000000002,"body":"on the supply side, but then I'll go to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2355.8650000000002,"endTime":2359.665,"body":"the demand side because that's where I,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2355.8650000000002,"endTime":2359.665,"body":"I I, I think, you know, the attention"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2359.715,"endTime":2361.705,"body":"comes from, it gets pulled that way."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2362.085,"endTime":2365.8250000000003,"body":"So we kind of know you know, the five"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2362.085,"endTime":2365.8250000000003,"body":"things that, that needed to be done"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2365.8450000000003,"endTime":2370.895,"body":"for, you know, there's a huge need"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2365.8450000000003,"endTime":2370.895,"body":"for quantum leap in energy efficiency."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2371.225,"endTime":2375.62,"body":"And a lot of that is to do with"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2371.225,"endTime":2375.62,"body":"actually smarter, more compact cities"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2375.73,"endTime":2379.83,"body":"with integrated transport, integrated"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2375.73,"endTime":2379.83,"body":"wastewater, heat, electricity"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2379.83,"endTime":2380.91,"body":"systems and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2381.4500000000003,"endTime":2385.36,"body":"We know that it's about"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2381.4500000000003,"endTime":2385.36,"body":"electrification of the economy."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2386.4,"endTime":2391.4900000000002,"body":"From one fifth to almost two thirds"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2386.4,"endTime":2391.4900000000002,"body":"of the economy and a lot of that being"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2391.4900000000002,"endTime":2395.92,"body":"through non fossil sources, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2391.4900000000002,"endTime":2395.92,"body":"wind, solar, et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2396.26,"endTime":2399.36,"body":"You know, we know it's about"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2396.26,"endTime":2399.36,"body":"substituting liquid fuels 'cause you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2399.36,"endTime":2401.0,"body":"still need liquid and gaseous fuels."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2401.0,"endTime":2406.07,"body":"You still need molecules for"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2401.0,"endTime":2406.07,"body":"energy dense and, and thermal uses."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2406.71,"endTime":2409.85,"body":"But then you've got this, you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2406.71,"endTime":2409.85,"body":"substitute oil, you know, biofuel,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2409.85,"endTime":2414.9700000000003,"body":"substitute gases, you know, hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2409.85,"endTime":2414.9700000000003,"body":"and because you're still gonna need"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2414.9700000000003,"endTime":2418.77,"body":"to mop up emissions, you need carbon"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2414.9700000000003,"endTime":2418.77,"body":"capture, sequestration, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2418.87,"endTime":2422.01,"body":"So we know, you know, technically"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2418.87,"endTime":2422.01,"body":"we know those things and we"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2422.01,"endTime":2423.21,"body":"kind of know how to do them."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2423.75,"endTime":2426.0,"body":"Some of them we need to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2423.75,"endTime":2426.0,"body":"know how to do more cheaply."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2426.06,"endTime":2429.64,"body":"But a a lot of that will be about scale"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2426.06,"endTime":2429.64,"body":"and learning and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2431.3650000000002,"endTime":2436.185,"body":"But how do you motivate those kinds"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2431.3650000000002,"endTime":2436.185,"body":"of investments needed for that?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2436.765,"endTime":2441.225,"body":"And I mentioned earlier, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2436.765,"endTime":2441.225,"body":"are the, these, for instance about eight"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2441.725,"endTime":2446.745,"body":"supply chains that we all engage with as,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2441.725,"endTime":2446.745,"body":"as individuals, as consumers, as users."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2447.455,"endTime":2451.105,"body":"That account for already"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2447.455,"endTime":2451.105,"body":"more than 50% of emissions."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2451.765,"endTime":2455.27,"body":"And we can recognize that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2455.77,"endTime":2460.91,"body":"And you can put, you know, policy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2455.77,"endTime":2460.91,"body":"in place to help stimulate, but you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2460.91,"endTime":2466.18,"body":"can also help signal that there are"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2460.91,"endTime":2466.18,"body":"premium markets that business are"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2466.18,"endTime":2468.33,"body":"gonna want to invest in to to take."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2469.07,"endTime":2473.0,"body":"So, you know, for instance as"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2469.07,"endTime":2473.0,"body":"examples, yeah, we talked about"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2473.0,"endTime":2474.6,"body":"passenger electric vehicles earlier."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2475.2200000000003,"endTime":2480.357,"body":"That came about, was driven effectively"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2475.2200000000003,"endTime":2480.357,"body":"out of California where there was a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2480.877,"endTime":2486.277,"body":"progressive, fertile ground of policy,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2480.877,"endTime":2486.277,"body":"but it wasn't about the environment."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2486.697,"endTime":2493.0170000000003,"body":"A company called Tesla recognized there"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2486.697,"endTime":2493.0170000000003,"body":"was a market for a computer on wheels."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2494.347,"endTime":2499.377,"body":"And that there were people who would pay"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2494.347,"endTime":2499.377,"body":"a lot of money for computers on wheels"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2500.317,"endTime":2507.497,"body":"and that got the ball rolling and it's"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2500.317,"endTime":2507.497,"body":"then rolled and made Tesla hugely market"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2507.977,"endTime":2512.417,"body":"valuable company, but has actually"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2507.977,"endTime":2512.417,"body":"encouraged others to come into that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2512.707,"endTime":2520.117,"body":"And so I think this recognizing these"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2512.707,"endTime":2520.117,"body":"high footprint supply chains and looking"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2520.457,"endTime":2528.997,"body":"for the development and stimulation of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2520.457,"endTime":2528.997,"body":"premium markets and recognizing that the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2529.317,"endTime":2536.237,"body":"companies who who see this and can build"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2529.317,"endTime":2536.237,"body":"a competitive stronghold by stepping in,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2537.482,"endTime":2539.902,"body":"can actually build those huge values."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2540.602,"endTime":2546.102,"body":"As a policymaker, recognizing as, as we're"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2540.602,"endTime":2546.102,"body":"beginning to see now, that stimulating"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2546.102,"endTime":2550.102,"body":"this through policy can be a domestic"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2546.102,"endTime":2550.102,"body":"industrial competitive advantage."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2550.202,"endTime":2555.005,"body":"And you're seeing now this a"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2550.202,"endTime":2555.005,"body":"competitive cycle emerging between"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2555.235,"endTime":2561.105,"body":"Chinese five-year plans, US IRA,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2555.235,"endTime":2561.105,"body":"EU Green Deal that's happening too."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2561.205,"endTime":2566.875,"body":"So it's about accelerating those things"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2561.205,"endTime":2566.875,"body":"and I think you asked, you know, me"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2566.875,"endTime":2572.035,"body":"personally, if I could get one thing"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2566.875,"endTime":2572.035,"body":"going, it would be you know, premium"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2572.265,"endTime":2582.475,"body":"markets in the high emissions supply"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2572.265,"endTime":2582.475,"body":"chains, that channel revenue into the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2582.495,"endTime":2588.605,"body":"big investments that you need in steel"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2582.495,"endTime":2588.605,"body":"manufacture, synthetics manufacturers,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2588.665,"endTime":2590.3650000000002,"body":"cement manufacturer, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2591.63,"endTime":2594.35,"body":"that too much of a ramble or,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2591.63,"endTime":2594.35,"body":"or could Is that clear it up"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2594.375,"endTime":2596.0750000000003,"body":"No, no, no,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2594.375,"endTime":2596.0750000000003,"body":"that's, that's fair enough."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2596.0750000000003,"endTime":2596.795,"body":"That's fair enough."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2597.3650000000002,"endTime":2600.905,"body":"We're coming towards the end, of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2597.3650000000002,"endTime":2600.905,"body":"podcast now, Jeremy, is there any"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2601.145,"endTime":2605.505,"body":"question I haven't asked that you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2601.145,"endTime":2605.505,"body":"wish I had or any aspect of this we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2605.505,"endTime":2608.105,"body":"haven't touched on that you think it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2605.505,"endTime":2608.105,"body":"important for people to think about?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2610.68,"endTime":2613.09,"body":"It's interesting"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2610.68,"endTime":2613.09,"body":"'cause I, I, I was kind of expecting"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2613.09,"endTime":2614.89,"body":"that question might come, but"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2613.09,"endTime":2614.89,"body":"I've written a couple of things."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2615.01,"endTime":2616.37,"body":"I would say, oh, I'd love to cover."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2616.83,"endTime":2619.01,"body":"And we've we've covered them."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2619.23,"endTime":2624.29,"body":"You know, one of them was the, the five"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2619.23,"endTime":2624.29,"body":"things we can all do as individuals."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2625.047,"endTime":2634.204,"body":"And the other one was recognizing that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2625.047,"endTime":2634.204,"body":"it's, ultimately the commercial engine"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2634.594,"endTime":2636.724,"body":"that drives the big things over time."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2637.224,"endTime":2645.924,"body":"And it can be primed by policy but also it"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2637.224,"endTime":2645.924,"body":"is pulled by demand and changes in demand."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2646.414,"endTime":2654.497,"body":"And so we've had an evolution, from if"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2646.414,"endTime":2654.497,"body":"you like, the international and national"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2654.497,"endTime":2660.257,"body":"perspective on climate change that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2654.497,"endTime":2660.257,"body":"came out of you know, the UN processes"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2660.357,"endTime":2661.897,"body":"and the COPs and things like that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2662.5170000000003,"endTime":2666.457,"body":"And actually only five or six years"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2662.5170000000003,"endTime":2666.457,"body":"ago, a bit longer now, maybe about"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2666.457,"endTime":2672.437,"body":"2015, I was beginning to emphasize the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2666.457,"endTime":2672.437,"body":"significance of the sectoral perspective."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2673.362,"endTime":2679.255,"body":"And that is recognizing that different"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2673.362,"endTime":2679.255,"body":"sectors, you know, aviation and shipping"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2679.675,"endTime":2683.045,"body":"and steel are using very different"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2679.675,"endTime":2683.045,"body":"technologies in very different ways."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2683.145,"endTime":2685.605,"body":"And if you're not understanding"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2683.145,"endTime":2685.605,"body":"those and intervening with those"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2685.815,"endTime":2688.215,"body":"sectorally, you're missing the point."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2688.675,"endTime":2692.495,"body":"And so not replacing the national"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2688.675,"endTime":2692.495,"body":"perspective 'cause that's where"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2692.495,"endTime":2697.455,"body":"jurisdictions and policies are often"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2692.495,"endTime":2697.455,"body":"set, but it was adding the sectoral"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2697.455,"endTime":2704.685,"body":"perspective and now I'm beginning to"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2697.455,"endTime":2704.685,"body":"see that that is also being enriched"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2704.8250000000003,"endTime":2708.205,"body":"now by this supply chain perspective."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2708.46,"endTime":2713.04,"body":"And that's one of the things that"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2708.46,"endTime":2713.04,"body":"I'm, I'm trying to promote now and"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2713.04,"endTime":2716.56,"body":"hence why I, I bring it up in response"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2713.04,"endTime":2716.56,"body":"to the question that you asked."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2716.685,"endTime":2717.6150000000002,"body":"Sure, sure, sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2718.195,"endTime":2722.255,"body":"And I think as well, I think, I think"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2718.195,"endTime":2722.255,"body":"you're dead right with examples like Tesla"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2722.475,"endTime":2725.935,"body":"and also talking about policy, because"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2722.475,"endTime":2725.935,"body":"there's a, there's an interesting dance"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2725.935,"endTime":2727.975,"body":"that happens between those two things."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2728.635,"endTime":2735.015,"body":"We had legislation passed here in the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2728.635,"endTime":2735.015,"body":"EU mandating that auto manufacturers"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2735.695,"endTime":2743.745,"body":"from 2020 onwards had to have their"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2735.695,"endTime":2743.745,"body":"average emissions per vehicle be less"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2743.935,"endTime":2749.545,"body":"than, I think it was a hundred grams,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2743.935,"endTime":2749.545,"body":"CO two per kilometer, or thereabouts."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2750.005,"endTime":2753.745,"body":"You know, and they would be fined"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2750.005,"endTime":2753.745,"body":"for if, if they went over that."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2755.385,"endTime":2759.145,"body":"I don't think that legislation"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2755.385,"endTime":2759.145,"body":"would've passed, had Tesla not"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2759.545,"endTime":2765.195,"body":"demonstrated the viability of creating"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2759.545,"endTime":2765.195,"body":"a mass market electric vehicle."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2765.695,"endTime":2769.515,"body":"And then suddenly the EU were able"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2765.695,"endTime":2769.515,"body":"to go, well, if they can do it,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2770.295,"endTime":2771.715,"body":"all the other ones can as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2771.715,"endTime":2775.355,"body":"And all this lobbying we've had from them"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2771.715,"endTime":2775.355,"body":"saying, it's impossible, that's rubbish."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2775.695,"endTime":2778.395,"body":"So it, it, it's, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2775.695,"endTime":2778.395,"body":"fascinating the way that technology"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2778.535,"endTime":2783.515,"body":"can demonstrate and then regulation"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2778.535,"endTime":2783.515,"body":"can require, and I think that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2783.515,"endTime":2786.435,"body":"an interesting dance that is being"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2783.515,"endTime":2786.435,"body":"played out and needs to play out more."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2789.05,"endTime":2789.33,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2789.64,"endTime":2791.73,"body":"It's a very good point"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2789.64,"endTime":2791.73,"body":"and, and a good example."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2791.83,"endTime":2796.68,"body":"And you, we we can also see how policy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2791.83,"endTime":2796.68,"body":"dances play out around the world when,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2796.75,"endTime":2800.967,"body":"when you think about it you know, you"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2796.75,"endTime":2800.967,"body":"know, solar panels, solar really kind"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2800.967,"endTime":2807.827,"body":"of originated after the investment"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2800.967,"endTime":2807.827,"body":"in R\u0026D in the US following the oil"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2807.837,"endTime":2814.234,"body":"price spikes back in, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2807.837,"endTime":2814.234,"body":"late seventies and early 79 as well."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2814.564,"endTime":2818.764,"body":"And so that kind of, you know, policy"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2814.564,"endTime":2818.764,"body":"created the R\u0026D and, and that was"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2818.764,"endTime":2820.444,"body":"happening there in, in California."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2820.944,"endTime":2825.994,"body":"But then the momentum was taken"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2820.944,"endTime":2825.994,"body":"up in places like Germany with the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2825.994,"endTime":2830.334,"body":"Energiewende and that certain things"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2825.994,"endTime":2830.334,"body":"forward and created more market."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2830.914,"endTime":2836.184,"body":"But then places like, you know, Japan"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2830.914,"endTime":2836.184,"body":"and Korea, South Korea were doing that."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2836.524,"endTime":2841.1040000000003,"body":"And ultimately, and yeah, I was working"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2836.524,"endTime":2841.1040000000003,"body":"with the, the Chinese State Council"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2841.194,"endTime":2846.4790000000003,"body":"since about 2010 on their thinking"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2841.194,"endTime":2846.4790000000003,"body":"about energy and energy scenarios."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2846.899,"endTime":2850.959,"body":"And you know, the Chinese State Council"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2846.899,"endTime":2850.959,"body":"simply decided that this was going"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2850.959,"endTime":2854.319,"body":"to be, the manufacturing of solar"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2850.959,"endTime":2854.319,"body":"panels was going to be one of their"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2854.339,"endTime":2858.599,"body":"target industries, and they were gonna"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2854.339,"endTime":2858.599,"body":"policy, put the policy in place to do"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2858.599,"endTime":2864.299,"body":"that and did and so you get then this"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2858.599,"endTime":2864.299,"body":"effect happening around the world."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2865.339,"endTime":2867.639,"body":"Now you see this, this accelerating."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2867.739,"endTime":2870.119,"body":"Now people are a bit worried"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2867.739,"endTime":2870.119,"body":"about, oh, all these solar"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2870.339,"endTime":2872.439,"body":"panels coming mainly from China."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2872.649,"endTime":2877.159,"body":"Maybe we, we should have some more local"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2872.649,"endTime":2877.159,"body":"manufacturers says all kinds of things."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2877.759,"endTime":2878.279,"body":"Interesting dance."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2878.924,"endTime":2880.244,"body":"Fascinating,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2878.924,"endTime":2880.244,"body":"fascinating, fascinating."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2880.504,"endTime":2881.964,"body":"Jeremy, this has been really interesting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2882.064,"endTime":2886.1240000000003,"body":"If people would like to know more"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2882.064,"endTime":2886.1240000000003,"body":"about yourself or any of the things"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2886.1240000000003,"endTime":2889.084,"body":"we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2886.1240000000003,"endTime":2889.084,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2891.514,"endTime":2892.98,"body":"Oh possibly"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2891.514,"endTime":2892.98,"body":"a couple of things."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2893.127,"endTime":2895.34,"body":"If they go on LinkedIn, you can find me."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2895.52,"endTime":2902.6,"body":"My name's Jeremy Bentham, but you'll"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2895.52,"endTime":2902.6,"body":"find me under Jeremy Bracket, JB Bentham."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2902.94,"endTime":2905.48,"body":"Or I think that the, the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2902.94,"endTime":2905.48,"body":"LinkedIn thing is you know,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2905.76,"endTime":2911.2000000000003,"body":"linkedin.com/in/jeremy b Bentham."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2911.655,"endTime":2912.3450000000003,"body":"I'll put a link."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2912.375,"endTime":2913.505,"body":"I'll put a link in the show notes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2913.505,"endTime":2913.745,"body":"Jeremy."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2915.78,"endTime":2916.07,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2916.07,"endTime":2922.215,"body":"And then there's another link which is"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2916.07,"endTime":2922.215,"body":"I've, I'm just publishing today, the"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2922.215,"endTime":2925.375,"body":"third edition of the Dodo Club newsletter."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2925.955,"endTime":2929.855,"body":"For those who don't wanna go the way of"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2925.955,"endTime":2929.855,"body":"the Dodo, you can join the Dodo Club."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2930.395,"endTime":2933.055,"body":"And there is the Dodo Club newsletter."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2933.515,"endTime":2937.815,"body":"And you know, if you go onto your"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2933.515,"endTime":2937.815,"body":"search engine, you'll be able to find"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2937.815,"endTime":2939.875,"body":"that, or, or indeed we can give a link"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2939.875,"endTime":2942.44,"body":"I'll, I'll put a link in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2939.875,"endTime":2942.44,"body":"the show notes fantastic, Jeremy, that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2942.44,"endTime":2943.8,"body":"that's been really, really interesting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2943.8,"endTime":2945.44,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2943.8,"endTime":2945.44,"body":"on the podcast today."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2947.367,"endTime":2948.777,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2947.367,"endTime":2948.777,"body":"it's, it's been a pleasure."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2949.007,"endTime":2949.857,"body":"It's great to see you."},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2949.857,"endTime":2953.5170000000003,"body":"It's great to talk to you and I wish"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2949.857,"endTime":2953.5170000000003,"body":"I had as cool a hat  as you, but"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2953.627,"endTime":2957.197,"body":"I don't yet, but maybe I'll have"},{"speaker":"Jeremy Bentham","startTime":2953.627,"endTime":2957.197,"body":"after this engagement we've had."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2960.428,"endTime":2962.2980000000002,"body":"Okay, we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2960.428,"endTime":2962.2980000000002,"body":"come to the end of the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2963.018,"endTime":2964.128,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2964.988,"endTime":2969.138,"body":"If you'd like to know more about the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2964.988,"endTime":2969.138,"body":"Climate Confident podcast, feel free to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2969.148,"endTime":2973.058,"body":"drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2973.308,"endTime":2976.788,"body":"com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2977.358,"endTime":2981.098,"body":"If you like the show, please don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2977.358,"endTime":2981.098,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2981.118,"endTime":2985.598,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2981.118,"endTime":2985.598,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2986.228,"endTime":2989.188,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2986.228,"endTime":2989.188,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2989.388,"endTime":2991.918,"body":"It really does help new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2989.388,"endTime":2991.918,"body":"people to find the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2993.0080000000003,"endTime":2993.458,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2994.128,"endTime":2995.0480000000002,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}