{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":3.409,"endTime":6.63,"body":"What that separation of"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":3.409,"endTime":6.63,"body":"those two things allows us to do is it"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":6.63,"endTime":11.66,"body":"allows us to architect from the ground"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":6.63,"endTime":11.66,"body":"up a battery that has some really"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":11.66,"endTime":12.92,"body":"unique and interesting characteristics."},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":13.42,"endTime":19.92,"body":"The most important one being that we"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":13.42,"endTime":19.92,"body":"can go to very long durations of storage"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":19.99,"endTime":21.99,"body":"at comparatively low incremental cost."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":22.25,"endTime":25.015,"body":"If we want to go from"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":22.25,"endTime":25.015,"body":"a two hour to a four hour battery,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":25.025,"endTime":28.125,"body":"for example, really, we're just"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":25.025,"endTime":28.125,"body":"increasing the volume of liquid that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":28.125,"endTime":30.335,"body":"is inside one of those batteries"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.711,"endTime":32.781,"body":"Good morning, good"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.711,"endTime":32.781,"body":"afternoon, or good evening,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":32.791,"endTime":34.291,"body":"wherever you are in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.611,"endTime":38.341,"body":"This is the Climate Confident"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.611,"endTime":38.341,"body":"podcast, the number one podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.481,"endTime":42.251,"body":"showcasing best practices in climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.481,"endTime":42.251,"body":"emission reductions and removals,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.681,"endTime":44.621,"body":"and I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":44.781,"endTime":48.541,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":44.781,"endTime":48.541,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":48.701,"endTime":51.061,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":52.101,"endTime":56.331,"body":"Hi everyone and welcome to episode"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":52.101,"endTime":56.331,"body":"145 of the Climate Confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":56.891,"endTime":61.111,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery and before we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":56.891,"endTime":61.111,"body":"kick off today's show, I just want"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":61.121,"endTime":64.611,"body":"to let you know about a new feature"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":61.121,"endTime":64.611,"body":"that I've rolled out in the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":65.651,"endTime":68.981,"body":"For now, it's just available"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":65.651,"endTime":68.981,"body":"on the podcast website and one"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":68.981,"endTime":73.341,"body":"or two podcast apps, but it'll"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":68.981,"endTime":73.341,"body":"roll out to more soon enough."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":74.201,"endTime":75.491,"body":"It's called a Podroll."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":77.091,"endTime":82.945,"body":"If anyone remembers, Blog rolls from blogs"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":77.091,"endTime":82.945,"body":"back in the early to mid two thousands."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":83.245,"endTime":84.175,"body":"It's a similar idea."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":84.895,"endTime":90.025,"body":"It's where I list on the podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":84.895,"endTime":90.025,"body":"website, similar podcasts to this one,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":90.295,"endTime":92.905,"body":"ones that I like and that I recommend."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":93.325,"endTime":97.855,"body":"So for example, if you go to the podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":93.325,"endTime":97.855,"body":"website, go into any of the episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":98.005,"endTime":101.095,"body":"The podcast website is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":98.005,"endTime":101.095,"body":"climate confident podcast.com."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":102.115,"endTime":106.835,"body":"At the end of the show notes,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":102.115,"endTime":106.835,"body":"you'll see links to other podcasts"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":106.865,"endTime":108.045,"body":"that I think are pretty cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":108.675,"endTime":112.141,"body":"So obviously, I have a link to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":108.675,"endTime":112.141,"body":"my digital supply chain podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":112.851,"endTime":117.841,"body":"I have a link as well to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":112.851,"endTime":117.841,"body":"Buzzcast, which is the podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":117.861,"endTime":121.371,"body":"hosting company for this podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":121.601,"endTime":124.921,"body":"The hosting company's name is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":121.601,"endTime":124.921,"body":"Buzzsprout, but they have a podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":125.031,"endTime":127.941,"body":"called Buzzcast, which I enjoy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":125.031,"endTime":127.941,"body":"listening to because I'm into podcasts."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":129.281,"endTime":132.421,"body":"But I also have links to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":129.281,"endTime":132.421,"body":"other climate related ones."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":132.421,"endTime":137.611,"body":"I have one to Richard Delavan's Wicked"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":132.421,"endTime":137.611,"body":"Problems, for example, the Yale Climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":137.641,"endTime":144.211,"body":"Connections, Climate Connections podcast,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":137.641,"endTime":144.211,"body":"the Climate Pod, the Climate Action"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":144.221,"endTime":149.891,"body":"Show, the Climate Question from the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":144.221,"endTime":149.891,"body":"BBC World Service, the Energy Gang,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":149.931,"endTime":152.331,"body":"Climate Positive, and Climate One."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":152.661,"endTime":154.691,"body":"Those are the ones I have there for now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":156.396,"endTime":160.406,"body":"If there are any other podcasts"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":156.396,"endTime":160.406,"body":"that you think I should add"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":160.416,"endTime":162.036,"body":"to the pod roll, get in touch."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":162.596,"endTime":168.046,"body":"Hit me up on LinkedIn or Twitter or drop"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":162.596,"endTime":168.046,"body":"me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":168.046,"endTime":170.376,"body":"com and I'll be happy to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":168.046,"endTime":170.376,"body":"add them to the pod roll."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":171.366,"endTime":176.966,"body":"Okay, now, with that out of the way,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":171.366,"endTime":176.966,"body":"without further ado, with me on the show"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":176.966,"endTime":178.826,"body":"today, I have my special guest, Matt."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":179.316,"endTime":181.316,"body":"Matt, welcome to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":181.316,"endTime":182.836,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":183.83,"endTime":184.25,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":184.27,"endTime":184.75,"body":"Thanks, Tom."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":184.8,"endTime":188.26,"body":"I'm Matt Harper Chief Commercial"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":184.8,"endTime":188.26,"body":"Officer and one of the Co Founders"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":188.29,"endTime":190.41,"body":"at Invinity Energy Systems."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":190.99,"endTime":194.44,"body":"Invinity make vanadium flow"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":190.99,"endTime":194.44,"body":"batteries for long duration storage."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":194.52,"endTime":198.19,"body":"And we're looking forward to telling"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":194.52,"endTime":198.19,"body":"you all about what that means."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":198.33,"endTime":199.04,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":199.06,"endTime":208.34,"body":"So let's start off with a quick battery"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":199.06,"endTime":208.34,"body":"101, Matt, because most people here would"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":208.35,"endTime":210.26,"body":"be familiar with lithium ion batteries."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":210.36,"endTime":211.51,"body":"They're in our phones."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":211.87,"endTime":216.56,"body":"For some of us, they're in our cars,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":211.87,"endTime":216.56,"body":"you know, but vanadium flow batteries."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":217.015,"endTime":219.575,"body":"Not so, not so common, I gotta think."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":219.845,"endTime":224.075,"body":"So, what is a vanadium flow"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":219.845,"endTime":224.075,"body":"battery and how does it differ"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":224.315,"endTime":225.465,"body":"from a lithium ion battery?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":226.72,"endTime":227.42,"body":"So great question."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":227.53,"endTime":231.79,"body":"So fundamentally what a vanadium flow"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":227.53,"endTime":231.79,"body":"battery does or what, there are a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":231.79,"endTime":234.42,"body":"number of different classes of flow"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":231.79,"endTime":234.42,"body":"batteries, but what a vanadium flow"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":234.42,"endTime":238.21,"body":"battery does is it takes the portion"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":234.42,"endTime":238.21,"body":"of a battery that generates power."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":238.82,"endTime":243.05,"body":"And the portion of a battery that stores"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":238.82,"endTime":243.05,"body":"energy and separates it from one another."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":243.13,"endTime":245.88,"body":"So those two things are conjoined"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":243.13,"endTime":245.88,"body":"inside a lithium ion cell."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":246.405,"endTime":249.355,"body":"We construct them"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":246.405,"endTime":249.355,"body":"separately from one another."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":249.565,"endTime":253.325,"body":"So, the power generation in one of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":249.565,"endTime":253.325,"body":"our batteries is in a device called"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":253.325,"endTime":257.705,"body":"a cell stack, which is a series of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":253.325,"endTime":257.705,"body":"electrochemical cells that allow"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":257.705,"endTime":259.015,"body":"the battery to charge and discharge."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":259.575,"endTime":263.795,"body":"Whereas the energy inside the battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":259.575,"endTime":263.795,"body":"is stored in a liquid electrolyte."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":264.405,"endTime":269.285,"body":"That liquid is it's fundamentally it's"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":264.405,"endTime":269.285,"body":"battery acid with dissolved vanadium in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":269.285,"endTime":271.325,"body":"it, hence the vanadium part of the name."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":271.905,"endTime":276.87,"body":"And in order to help that charge and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":271.905,"endTime":276.87,"body":"discharge reaction happen, the liquid"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":276.87,"endTime":281.407,"body":"electrolyte it flows through that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":276.87,"endTime":281.407,"body":"cell stack, hence the flow battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":281.407,"endTime":285.257,"body":"portion, as a way of fueling in effect"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":281.407,"endTime":285.257,"body":"that charge and discharge reaction."},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":286.097,"endTime":289.317,"body":"What that separation of"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":286.097,"endTime":289.317,"body":"those two things allows us to do is it"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":289.317,"endTime":294.347,"body":"allows us to architect from the ground"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":289.317,"endTime":294.347,"body":"up a battery that has some really"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":294.347,"endTime":295.607,"body":"unique and interesting characteristics."},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":296.107,"endTime":302.607,"body":"The most important one being that we"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":296.107,"endTime":302.607,"body":"can go to very long durations of storage"},{"speaker":"Matt Harper","startTime":302.677,"endTime":304.677,"body":"at comparatively low incremental cost."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":304.937,"endTime":307.702,"body":"If we want to go from"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":304.937,"endTime":307.702,"body":"a two hour to a four hour battery,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":307.712,"endTime":310.812,"body":"for example, really, we're just"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":307.712,"endTime":310.812,"body":"increasing the volume of liquid that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":310.812,"endTime":313.022,"body":"is inside one of those batteries."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":313.292,"endTime":318.302,"body":"That means that as we, as the grid needs"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":313.292,"endTime":318.302,"body":"longer and longer duration storage, we can"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":318.302,"endTime":320.442,"body":"provide that comparatively inexpensively."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":321.382,"endTime":325.612,"body":"The other benefit is that in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":321.382,"endTime":325.612,"body":"one of our batteries, the charge"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":325.612,"endTime":330.327,"body":"and discharge reaction happens"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":325.612,"endTime":330.327,"body":"exclusively in that vanadium liquid."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":330.887,"endTime":333.507,"body":"And what that means is that if you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":330.887,"endTime":333.507,"body":"look at the, if you look at the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":333.507,"endTime":336.557,"body":"charge and discharge mode inside a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":333.507,"endTime":336.557,"body":"lithium ion battery, and you look"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":336.557,"endTime":340.597,"body":"at how those batteries degrade over"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":336.557,"endTime":340.597,"body":"time, fundamentally, in a lithium"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":340.607,"endTime":343.327,"body":"battery, what you're doing is you're"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":340.607,"endTime":343.327,"body":"plating material onto an electrode"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":343.327,"endTime":345.847,"body":"and then tearing it off again,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":343.327,"endTime":345.847,"body":"every time you charge and discharge."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":346.567,"endTime":349.207,"body":"With one of our batteries, because"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":346.567,"endTime":349.207,"body":"that charge and discharge happens"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":349.207,"endTime":354.187,"body":"totally in a liquid, we don't get"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":349.207,"endTime":354.187,"body":"that very small degradation over time."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":354.917,"endTime":357.927,"body":"Over a cycle or two, you would never"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":354.917,"endTime":357.927,"body":"notice those changes, but over a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":357.927,"endTime":362.337,"body":"thousand cycles or over 10, 000 cycles"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":357.927,"endTime":362.337,"body":"it means that while other battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":362.607,"endTime":366.517,"body":"technologies are going to degrade,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":362.607,"endTime":366.517,"body":"we don't see that sort of degradation"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":366.517,"endTime":368.357,"body":"mechanism inside one of our batteries."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":368.587,"endTime":374.372,"body":"So, for example installing our batteries"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":368.587,"endTime":374.372,"body":"alongside, for example, a solar plant"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":374.622,"endTime":378.002,"body":"where, you know, if you're going to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":374.622,"endTime":378.002,"body":"absorb solar energy and deploy it on the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":378.002,"endTime":381.772,"body":"grid, when it's most valuable, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":378.002,"endTime":381.772,"body":"you're going to do that over the 25 to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":381.772,"endTime":384.322,"body":"30 year asset life of a solar plant."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":384.732,"endTime":387.582,"body":"You're going to be doing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":384.732,"endTime":387.582,"body":"that 365 days a year."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":387.672,"endTime":390.552,"body":"You're probably going to be doing some"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":387.672,"endTime":390.552,"body":"ancillary services on top of that."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":391.002,"endTime":396.722,"body":"It allows us to do 10, 15, 20,000 charge"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":391.002,"endTime":396.722,"body":"and discharge cycles without fundamental"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":396.722,"endTime":398.042,"body":"degradation of the batteries performance."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":398.352,"endTime":402.152,"body":"So very much an asset that is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":398.352,"endTime":402.152,"body":"developed from the ground up to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":402.152,"endTime":405.682,"body":"be fit for purpose for standing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":402.152,"endTime":405.682,"body":"alongside renewable power generation."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":407.402,"endTime":409.632,"body":"Yeah, that was gonna"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":407.402,"endTime":409.632,"body":"be my next question actually."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":410.012,"endTime":415.622,"body":"I assume them being, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":410.012,"endTime":415.622,"body":"having liquid as part of the flow"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":415.622,"endTime":418.292,"body":"battery, not that suitable for cars."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":419.767,"endTime":423.157,"body":"No, and that is one of the,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":419.767,"endTime":423.157,"body":"one of the downsides of the technology."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":423.477,"endTime":425.077,"body":"It is comparatively heavy."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":425.817,"endTime":429.857,"body":"So not something you're likely"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":425.817,"endTime":429.857,"body":"to see in a car anytime soon, not"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":429.917,"endTime":433.497,"body":"likely something you're going to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":429.917,"endTime":433.497,"body":"see in a mobile device anytime soon."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":434.357,"endTime":437.707,"body":"With that said if you, if you look"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":434.357,"endTime":437.707,"body":"at you know, the number of charge"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":437.707,"endTime":440.927,"body":"and discharge cycles that a typical"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":437.707,"endTime":440.927,"body":"vehicle will go through over its"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":440.997,"endTime":444.767,"body":"life, you don't necessarily need"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":440.997,"endTime":444.767,"body":"the ultra high throughput, ultra"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":444.767,"endTime":448.177,"body":"high charge and discharge cycle"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":444.767,"endTime":448.177,"body":"count that we're able to achieve."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":448.807,"endTime":449.527,"body":"And so."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":449.912,"endTime":455.782,"body":"When we look at the future of mobility"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":449.912,"endTime":455.782,"body":"and the role that we can play, it's very"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":455.782,"endTime":457.512,"body":"much more on the infrastructure side."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":457.602,"endTime":462.132,"body":"You know, how can we put a battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":457.602,"endTime":462.132,"body":"alongside an EV charging station that,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":462.512,"endTime":465.132,"body":"you know, in the morning and evening"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":462.512,"endTime":465.132,"body":"rush hour is going to be able to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":465.182,"endTime":470.287,"body":"supply power to vehicles that are in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":465.182,"endTime":470.287,"body":"transit rather than actually providing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":470.357,"endTime":471.437,"body":"power to the vehicles themselves."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":471.822,"endTime":472.592,"body":"Interesting, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":472.892,"endTime":476.852,"body":"That's a nice use case because a lot"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":472.892,"endTime":476.852,"body":"of people mightn't realise that in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":476.862,"endTime":482.012,"body":"these charging stations where you can"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":476.862,"endTime":482.012,"body":"have multiple chargers together and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":482.022,"endTime":487.572,"body":"multiple cars plugged in, you can either"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":482.022,"endTime":487.572,"body":"have a big fat cable going into the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":487.582,"endTime":491.332,"body":"back of the charging station to make"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":487.582,"endTime":491.332,"body":"sure that all chargers can discharge"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":491.332,"endTime":495.927,"body":"fully at the same time, Or you can"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":491.332,"endTime":495.927,"body":"have a smaller cable and a big battery"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":495.927,"endTime":497.567,"body":"there to supply the power as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":497.577,"endTime":501.237,"body":"So I can see how the the Vanadium"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":497.577,"endTime":501.237,"body":"Flow battery would suit that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":501.307,"endTime":502.527,"body":"that installation beautifully."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":503.737,"endTime":504.737,"body":"Look, it's absolutely true."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":504.737,"endTime":509.167,"body":"And the reality is that those"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":504.737,"endTime":509.167,"body":"big cables into fueling stations"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":509.167,"endTime":510.777,"body":"today simply don't exist."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":510.927,"endTime":515.627,"body":"And if you look at what's happening"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":510.927,"endTime":515.627,"body":"in the renewable space in general, I"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":515.717,"endTime":521.602,"body":"think we see all around the world that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":515.717,"endTime":521.602,"body":"the biggest hurdle to delivering more"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":521.602,"endTime":525.972,"body":"renewable power under the grid in many"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":521.602,"endTime":525.972,"body":"jurisdictions is the time it takes to make"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":525.972,"endTime":527.982,"body":"an interconnection into the electric grid."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":529.652,"endTime":534.532,"body":"Trying to build those same sort of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":529.652,"endTime":534.532,"body":"interconnections on the load side, i."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":534.532,"endTime":534.732,"body":"e."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":534.742,"endTime":537.822,"body":"into, you know, a new and expanded"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":534.742,"endTime":537.822,"body":"you know, electric fueling stations"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":537.852,"endTime":541.842,"body":"is something that is going to be a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":537.852,"endTime":541.842,"body":"massive drain on the electric grid."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":541.842,"endTime":544.742,"body":"And I don't think something that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":541.842,"endTime":544.742,"body":"we're going to see anytime soon,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":544.782,"endTime":550.694,"body":"unless we have batteries on site,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":544.782,"endTime":550.694,"body":"supporting  that fueling infrastructure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":550.934,"endTime":554.174,"body":"Yeah, because you can trickle"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":550.934,"endTime":554.174,"body":"fill those batteries in times when there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":554.174,"endTime":557.634,"body":"isn't a lot of demand and then just"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":554.174,"endTime":557.634,"body":"discharge them as there is the demand."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":557.684,"endTime":559.874,"body":"No, it's a, it's a, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":557.684,"endTime":559.874,"body":"a beautiful use case."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":559.874,"endTime":563.864,"body":"I, I've heard of a use case for rail"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":559.874,"endTime":563.864,"body":"as well for similar kind of things."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":564.234,"endTime":565.694,"body":"But that, that, that's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":564.234,"endTime":565.694,"body":"a whole nother thing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":565.694,"endTime":567.824,"body":"And we would, don't, don't want"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":565.694,"endTime":567.824,"body":"to go down that railway track."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":567.824,"endTime":569.784,"body":"Ha, ha, ha,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":570.104,"endTime":570.954,"body":"Lest we get off the rails"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":571.394,"endTime":572.334,"body":"ha, ha, ha, ha."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":572.684,"endTime":573.094,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":573.774,"endTime":576.173,"body":"Ha, ha, ha, ha."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":576.704,"endTime":580.894,"body":"The other, one of the other limitations"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":576.704,"endTime":580.894,"body":"of lithium ion batteries is there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":580.894,"endTime":585.364,"body":"is a fear of fire with those."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":585.684,"endTime":591.414,"body":"Is, I've read, so you correct me if I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":585.684,"endTime":591.414,"body":"wrong, but I've read that that isn't as"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":591.414,"endTime":593.154,"body":"big an issue with vanadium flow batteries."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":594.974,"endTime":597.534,"body":"I would say it's a near zero"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":594.974,"endTime":597.534,"body":"issue with the batteries themselves."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":597.534,"endTime":601.554,"body":"I mean, look, any, any electrical"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":597.534,"endTime":601.554,"body":"infrastructure has some fire risk"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":601.554,"endTime":604.834,"body":"associated with with it just because"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":601.554,"endTime":604.834,"body":"of the nature of, you know, passing a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":604.834,"endTime":606.804,"body":"lot of energy through wires and such."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":607.104,"endTime":610.224,"body":"But when you look at the battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":607.104,"endTime":610.224,"body":"itself, our batteries are"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":610.364,"endTime":612.134,"body":"fundamentally non flammable."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":612.694,"endTime":615.944,"body":"You know, there's a, there's"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":612.694,"endTime":615.944,"body":"a regulatory test in in the U."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":615.944,"endTime":616.124,"body":"S."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":616.154,"endTime":620.743,"body":"called UL 9540A, where you basically"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":616.154,"endTime":620.743,"body":"need to try and prove that that the, the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":620.743,"endTime":626.413,"body":"batteries are not going to, at the very"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":620.743,"endTime":626.413,"body":"least, start, if not propagate, a fire."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":626.813,"endTime":631.333,"body":"And, you know, we submitted our batteries"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":626.813,"endTime":631.333,"body":"to that test and they essentially"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":631.343,"endTime":634.723,"body":"weren't even, they didn't even need to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":631.343,"endTime":634.723,"body":"run the test because they weren't able"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":634.723,"endTime":639.103,"body":"to ignite the electrolyte inside the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":634.723,"endTime":639.103,"body":"battery in any way, shape, or form."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":639.723,"endTime":642.753,"body":"So, you know, we, we, we got"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":639.723,"endTime":642.753,"body":"a pretty easy pass there, but"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":642.753,"endTime":643.623,"body":"look, it's absolutely true."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":643.623,"endTime":646.093,"body":"And it really depends on,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":643.623,"endTime":646.093,"body":"on, on the application."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":646.103,"endTime":649.993,"body":"I mean, look, everything is nothing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":646.103,"endTime":649.993,"body":"in the world is without risk."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":650.153,"endTime":653.123,"body":"And I, I have seen a lot of people talk"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":650.153,"endTime":653.123,"body":"about how, oh, you know, there's a lot"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":653.123,"endTime":655.633,"body":"of risk with electric vehicle batteries."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":655.663,"endTime":659.393,"body":"I mean, it's true, but there's also"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":655.663,"endTime":659.393,"body":"a lot of risk with, with, with, with."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":659.463,"endTime":661.303,"body":"You know, diesel and petrol."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":661.673,"endTime":662.303,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":662.333,"endTime":662.883,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":663.243,"endTime":667.493,"body":"Now, where I think that there is, I think"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":663.243,"endTime":667.493,"body":"that there is, you know, from, from our"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":667.493,"endTime":673.443,"body":"perspective, we see a lot of pushback"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":667.493,"endTime":673.443,"body":"for battery installations in urban and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":673.443,"endTime":675.333,"body":"industrial areas because of the fire risk."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":675.823,"endTime":680.163,"body":"You know, if you're building a solar"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":675.823,"endTime":680.163,"body":"farm in the middle of nowhere, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":680.163,"endTime":683.553,"body":"do you, does it, does it matter if your"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":680.163,"endTime":683.553,"body":"battery has some risk associated with it?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":683.553,"endTime":684.253,"body":"Probably not."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":684.823,"endTime":688.833,"body":"But if you are in, you know, an urban"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":684.823,"endTime":688.833,"body":"area, you know, you've got batteries at"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":688.833,"endTime":692.873,"body":"a, at a substation looking to regulate"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":688.833,"endTime":692.873,"body":"load into a residential neighborhood,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":693.203,"endTime":697.383,"body":"you need to be absolutely certain"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":693.203,"endTime":697.383,"body":"that there's no risk of, of, of fire."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":697.383,"endTime":701.133,"body":"There's no risk of toxic fumes being"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":697.383,"endTime":701.133,"body":"you know, clouding the neighborhood."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":701.483,"endTime":706.053,"body":"And so for applications like that,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":701.483,"endTime":706.053,"body":"we are increasingly seeing that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":706.053,"endTime":709.143,"body":"we've got a tremendous leg up on on,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":706.053,"endTime":709.143,"body":"on, on the lithium ion incumbents."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":710.408,"endTime":711.728,"body":"What about size?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":712.108,"endTime":715.188,"body":"I can imagine there's a weight"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":712.108,"endTime":715.188,"body":"differential in favor of lithium"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":715.188,"endTime":718.578,"body":"ion, but in terms of size, and if"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":715.188,"endTime":718.578,"body":"I'm, if I'm thinking about a use case"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":718.608,"endTime":722.018,"body":"here, it's for home energy storage."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":722.098,"endTime":726.798,"body":"So, you know, the likes"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":722.098,"endTime":726.798,"body":"of the Tesla Powerwall 14."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":726.799,"endTime":729.468,"body":"3, I think it is kilowatt hours sticks"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":726.799,"endTime":729.468,"body":"on the side of the wall of the house."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":729.908,"endTime":732.048,"body":"But to your point, it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":729.908,"endTime":732.048,"body":"a lithium ion battery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":732.048,"endTime":735.873,"body":"There's a, there's a negligible,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":732.048,"endTime":735.873,"body":"but there is a risk of fire there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":735.874,"endTime":738.863,"body":"and there's a lesser risk of a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":735.874,"endTime":738.863,"body":"fire with a vanadium battery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":739.113,"endTime":743.933,"body":"So in terms of size, would it"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":739.113,"endTime":743.933,"body":"be significantly larger for the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":743.933,"endTime":746.023,"body":"same kind of storage capacity?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":746.053,"endTime":749.313,"body":"And also, would there be a significant"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":746.053,"endTime":749.313,"body":"price differential between the two?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":749.823,"endTime":752.233,"body":"And in which direction would that go?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":754.733,"endTime":755.303,"body":"Great question."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":755.313,"endTime":761.873,"body":"So, in terms of the, in terms of the size"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":755.313,"endTime":761.873,"body":"and we don't do work today in residential."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":761.893,"endTime":765.793,"body":"So, so I don't have a, I don't have"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":761.893,"endTime":765.793,"body":"a comparison directly at hand, but if"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":765.793,"endTime":769.173,"body":"you look at you know, industrial energy"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":765.793,"endTime":769.173,"body":"storage, for example you know, the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":769.173,"endTime":773.483,"body":"amount of energy storage that we put"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":769.173,"endTime":773.483,"body":"into a, a 20 foot shipping container"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":773.483,"endTime":777.263,"body":"as a form factor, for example yeah, is,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":773.483,"endTime":777.263,"body":"is significant, is less than you would"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":777.263,"endTime":778.713,"body":"see with a comparable lithium array."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":779.343,"endTime":785.383,"body":"Now, the benefit, though, is because of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":779.343,"endTime":785.383,"body":"that lack of fire risk, there's no need"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":785.393,"endTime":789.563,"body":"for spacing those containers out vis a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":785.393,"endTime":789.563,"body":"vis one another, so we can take these"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":789.713,"endTime":792.883,"body":"battery containers and stack them up so"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":789.713,"endTime":792.883,"body":"that they look a lot like a shipping port."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":793.243,"endTime":798.043,"body":"Directly on top of one another, directly"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":793.243,"endTime":798.043,"body":"alongside one another, and therefore the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":798.133,"endTime":803.763,"body":"absolute, the absolute size of one of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":798.133,"endTime":803.763,"body":"these installations, depending on how"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":803.763,"endTime":808.503,"body":"you want to measure that we benchmark"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":803.763,"endTime":808.503,"body":"at, you know, a meter squared per"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":808.783,"endTime":812.783,"body":"megawatt hour of installed capacity,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":808.783,"endTime":812.783,"body":"we are, you know, at least as dense,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":812.783,"endTime":816.413,"body":"if not denser than the leading, leading"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":812.783,"endTime":816.413,"body":"lithium ion solutions out there today."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":816.923,"endTime":817.283,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":817.283,"endTime":818.083,"body":"And in terms of cost?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":819.643,"endTime":822.173,"body":"Oh as it stands today, we're"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":819.643,"endTime":822.173,"body":"probably, look, there's a, there's a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":822.173,"endTime":823.583,"body":"big range of lithium costs out there."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":823.743,"endTime":826.173,"body":"For the projects that we're"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":823.743,"endTime":826.173,"body":"currently serving, which are"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":826.173,"endTime":828.873,"body":"sort of the large commercial and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":826.173,"endTime":828.873,"body":"industrial and small distributed"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":828.873,"endTime":830.893,"body":"scale we're, we're roughly on par."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":831.423,"endTime":834.573,"body":"When you get into the, the lithium-ion"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":831.423,"endTime":834.573,"body":"mega projects that are being built"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":834.573,"endTime":837.243,"body":"out, you know, at the hundreds"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":834.573,"endTime":837.243,"body":"of mega, the hundreds of megawatt"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":837.243,"endTime":840.013,"body":"hours north of that you know, we,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":837.243,"endTime":840.013,"body":"we are, we are more expensive."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":840.703,"endTime":843.403,"body":"We do see that changing over"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":840.703,"endTime":843.403,"body":"the next couple of years."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":843.443,"endTime":847.703,"body":"We are engaged in a joint development"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":843.443,"endTime":847.703,"body":"agreement with the folks over at"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":847.703,"endTime":852.753,"body":"Siemens Gamesa to build our, our sort"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":847.703,"endTime":852.753,"body":"of our next generation product that is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":852.753,"endTime":856.093,"body":"going to put us directly competitive"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":852.753,"endTime":856.093,"body":"with with, with lithium ion batteries"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":856.123,"endTime":857.553,"body":"in in the majority of applications."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":858.248,"endTime":864.335,"body":"Now, with all of that said, the one"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":858.248,"endTime":864.335,"body":"thing that I would add to that question"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":864.465,"endTime":868.995,"body":"is that if you're looking at, at, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":864.465,"endTime":868.995,"body":"know, the, the, the initial capital cost"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":868.995,"endTime":873.455,"body":"of those batteries, what I just said is,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":868.995,"endTime":873.455,"body":"is, is, is accurate, but if you want to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":873.455,"endTime":876.755,"body":"look at the total cost of ownership of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":873.455,"endTime":876.755,"body":"those batteries over their life cycle,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":876.755,"endTime":880.475,"body":"and especially talk about levelized"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":876.755,"endTime":880.475,"body":"cost of storage, which is essentially"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":880.525,"endTime":883.655,"body":"how much useful work are you getting"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":880.525,"endTime":883.655,"body":"out of the batteries over their life?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":884.005,"endTime":888.235,"body":"We already are significantly better"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":884.005,"endTime":888.235,"body":"than lithium ion batteries in the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":888.235,"endTime":893.195,"body":"kind of applications we target, and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":888.235,"endTime":893.195,"body":"we have a path significantly downwards"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":893.245,"endTime":897.005,"body":"toward some very very compelling L"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":893.245,"endTime":897.005,"body":"Cost cost numbers in the long term."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":897.8,"endTime":898.22,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":898.5,"endTime":904.7,"body":"And is that, I presume that's because"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":898.5,"endTime":904.7,"body":"the longer life and the greater cycles,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":904.7,"endTime":906.6,"body":"the greater number of cycles per battery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":906.6,"endTime":913.66,"body":"Because I assume if you are on a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":906.6,"endTime":913.66,"body":"grid, for example backing up either"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":913.66,"endTime":917.38,"body":"wind or solar, you're probably doing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":913.66,"endTime":917.38,"body":"frequency regulation, which is kind"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":917.39,"endTime":922.33,"body":"of multiple times per hour, per"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":917.39,"endTime":922.33,"body":"minute, even at times, depending on"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":922.33,"endTime":924.16,"body":"when you're called on to step in."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":925.39,"endTime":929.91,"body":"That could mean tens or hundreds of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":925.39,"endTime":929.91,"body":"cycles per day at different times."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":931.21,"endTime":932.5,"body":"Yep, no, that's exactly it."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":932.6,"endTime":937.12,"body":"I mean, and we, so we focus on what we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":932.6,"endTime":937.12,"body":"think of as high throughput applications."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":937.13,"endTime":939.76,"body":"So whether that's we've got an"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":937.13,"endTime":939.76,"body":"installation up in the north of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":939.76,"endTime":943.19,"body":"Scotland, which is regulating"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":939.76,"endTime":943.19,"body":"power output from a tidal turbine."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":943.56,"endTime":947.65,"body":"So it's doing 4 deep discharge"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":943.56,"endTime":947.65,"body":"cycles per day, constantly cycling"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":947.79,"endTime":951.05,"body":"very, very difficult duty cycle for"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":947.79,"endTime":951.05,"body":"lithium ion batteries to survive."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":952.505,"endTime":956.155,"body":"Conversely, a little bit further south"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":952.505,"endTime":956.155,"body":"in the UK, we've got our installation"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":956.155,"endTime":960.375,"body":"at the Energy Super Hub Oxford, which is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":956.155,"endTime":960.375,"body":"doing a combination of merchant trading"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":960.495,"endTime":964.965,"body":"on the electricity markets and some"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":960.495,"endTime":964.965,"body":"of those ancillary services in the, in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":964.965,"endTime":967.265,"body":"the, broader electricity market there."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":967.52,"endTime":971.51,"body":"So each one of those means that in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":967.52,"endTime":971.51,"body":"both applications, we are cycling with"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":971.51,"endTime":975.67,"body":"the batteries almost continuously,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":971.51,"endTime":975.67,"body":"making sure that we're getting value"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":975.67,"endTime":979.31,"body":"for our customers out of those devices"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":975.67,"endTime":979.31,"body":"as many hours of the day as possible."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":980.123,"endTime":980.543,"body":"Fascinating."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":981.953,"endTime":986.528,"body":"Tell me a little bit about,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":981.953,"endTime":986.528,"body":"just, veering left for a second."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":986.848,"endTime":991.178,"body":"Tell me a little bit about the, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":986.848,"endTime":991.178,"body":"Genesis story of Invinity, you know."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":991.188,"endTime":994.018,"body":"What, what made you're,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":991.188,"endTime":994.018,"body":"you're one of the founders."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":994.028,"endTime":998.048,"body":"So what made you kind of wake up one"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":994.028,"endTime":998.048,"body":"morning and go, I know what I should do."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":998.608,"endTime":1001.128,"body":"I should start a vanadium"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":998.608,"endTime":1001.128,"body":"flow battery company."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1002.123,"endTime":1004.703,"body":"I'll tell you, the real"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1002.123,"endTime":1004.703,"body":"story is that I woke up one morning and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1004.703,"endTime":1007.553,"body":"realized what I shouldn't do, but we'll"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1004.703,"endTime":1007.553,"body":"leave that one of the side for now."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1007.683,"endTime":1011.103,"body":"Look, I've been working I've been working"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1007.683,"endTime":1011.103,"body":"in renewables since the mid nineties."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1011.103,"endTime":1013.873,"body":"I spent the first 10 years of my"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1011.103,"endTime":1013.873,"body":"career in hydrogen and fuel cells."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1014.368,"endTime":1017.528,"body":"And then in, in 2005, I had the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1014.368,"endTime":1017.528,"body":"opportunity to go join a company"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1017.528,"endTime":1020.978,"body":"called VRB Power Systems, which was"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1017.528,"endTime":1020.978,"body":"the original licensee of the Vanadium"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1020.998,"endTime":1022.708,"body":"Flow technology into North America."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1023.488,"endTime":1027.118,"body":"We sort of went through a couple of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1023.488,"endTime":1027.118,"body":"corporate changes, a transaction that saw"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1027.118,"endTime":1029.208,"body":"us acquired by a company over in Asia."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1029.708,"endTime":1034.328,"body":"And in 2013 we were continuing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1029.708,"endTime":1034.328,"body":"to advance the commercialization"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1034.328,"endTime":1035.608,"body":"and deployment of the technology."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1035.608,"endTime":1040.813,"body":"But we were really focused on these"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1035.608,"endTime":1040.813,"body":"sort of very, very large scale utility"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1041.403,"endTime":1044.873,"body":"projects, you know, in the sort of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1041.403,"endTime":1044.873,"body":"tens to hundreds of megawatt hours"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1045.153,"endTime":1049.703,"body":"that were being constructed on site as"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1045.153,"endTime":1049.703,"body":"kind of, you know, bespoke engineering"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1049.703,"endTime":1052.733,"body":"projects say, you know, kind of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1049.703,"endTime":1052.733,"body":"built like a small chemical plant."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1053.463,"endTime":1056.653,"body":"And and what we saw was was"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1053.463,"endTime":1056.653,"body":"was 2 things first of all."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1056.663,"endTime":1062.798,"body":"We saw that that mode of construction"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1056.663,"endTime":1062.798,"body":"wasn't going to evolve the technology"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1062.848,"endTime":1065.728,"body":"in the way that we wanted, simply"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1062.848,"endTime":1065.728,"body":"because when you build something on"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1065.728,"endTime":1068.728,"body":"site, you never get the degree of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1065.728,"endTime":1068.728,"body":"standardization and consistency that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1068.728,"endTime":1073.303,"body":"we thought would be needed to really"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1068.728,"endTime":1073.303,"body":"understand how these batteries operate"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1073.333,"endTime":1075.073,"body":"and how we could optimize them over time."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1075.703,"endTime":1080.343,"body":"And, and, and second of all we didn't"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1075.703,"endTime":1080.343,"body":"think that that method of constructing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1080.343,"endTime":1084.303,"body":"batteries was ever going to be fit"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1080.343,"endTime":1084.303,"body":"for purpose for deployment in, in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1084.303,"endTime":1087.673,"body":"North America because, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1084.303,"endTime":1087.673,"body":"at that time, the most exciting"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1087.673,"endTime":1092.513,"body":"story in renewables was the massive"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1087.673,"endTime":1092.513,"body":"uptick in, in solar deployment."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1092.978,"endTime":1096.448,"body":"And solar plants are being rolled out"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1092.978,"endTime":1096.448,"body":"on the order of megawatts per week you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1096.448,"endTime":1099.878,"body":"know, turn around and say, yeah, we can"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1096.448,"endTime":1099.878,"body":"deliver a flow battery to support your"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1099.878,"endTime":1103.468,"body":"solar plant, but it's going to take two"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1099.878,"endTime":1103.468,"body":"and a half years worth of, you know, site"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1103.668,"endTime":1107.068,"body":"engineering, permitting and construction"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1103.668,"endTime":1107.068,"body":"simply was never going to work."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1107.578,"endTime":1111.238,"body":"So, you know, the concept that evolved out"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1107.578,"endTime":1111.238,"body":"of kind of the Venn diagram between those"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1111.238,"endTime":1115.588,"body":"two forces was for us to say, look, can we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1111.238,"endTime":1115.588,"body":"take this technology that we know really"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1115.588,"endTime":1119.918,"body":"well, a technology that we know would"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1115.588,"endTime":1119.918,"body":"be very much fit for purpose for serving"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1120.168,"endTime":1124.388,"body":"renewable power projects and turn that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1120.168,"endTime":1124.388,"body":"into something that's totally turnkey that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1124.388,"endTime":1129.678,"body":"we could deliver out of a factory with"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1124.388,"endTime":1129.678,"body":"great quality control at lowest possible"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1129.728,"endTime":1133.438,"body":"total cost and deliver to our customers in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1129.728,"endTime":1133.438,"body":"a way where they could hook it up and have"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1133.438,"endTime":1135.558,"body":"it up and running within hours to days."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1136.883,"endTime":1141.063,"body":"And that was really the sort of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1136.883,"endTime":1141.063,"body":"nut of the idea that ultimately became"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1141.503,"endTime":1144.743,"body":"that became Avalon Battery, which was"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1141.503,"endTime":1144.743,"body":"the company we founded back in 2013."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1145.733,"endTime":1150.803,"body":"And that we we brought into Invinity when"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1145.733,"endTime":1150.803,"body":"we merged with one of our competitors"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1150.823,"endTime":1153.433,"body":"over the UK back in back in 2020."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1154.173,"endTime":1157.503,"body":"That concept, I think, has"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1154.173,"endTime":1157.503,"body":"been fairly well played."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1157.843,"endTime":1158.733,"body":"Very well proven now."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1158.753,"endTime":1160.063,"body":"We've now shipped."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1160.483,"endTime":1164.493,"body":"I think the number is something"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1160.483,"endTime":1164.493,"body":"like 1400 of those individual"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1164.503,"endTime":1166.493,"body":"battery modules into the field."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1166.903,"endTime":1172.293,"body":"That's more flow batteries that have been"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1166.903,"endTime":1172.293,"body":"built by the entire group of flow battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1172.293,"endTime":1173.613,"body":"companies in the rest of the world."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1174.433,"endTime":1175.543,"body":"It's a huge fleet."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1176.273,"endTime":1180.973,"body":"And as we expected, what that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1176.273,"endTime":1180.973,"body":"fleet size has given us is an"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1181.393,"endTime":1183.433,"body":"unbelievably powerful data set."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1184.028,"endTime":1187.958,"body":"That we can go to and we can, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1184.028,"endTime":1187.958,"body":"we've got real time telemetry into"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1187.998,"endTime":1189.378,"body":"most if not of all of those systems."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1189.698,"endTime":1192.948,"body":"You know, we get the data back in terms"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1189.698,"endTime":1192.948,"body":"of how they're actually operating, how"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1192.948,"endTime":1196.528,"body":"they're actually performing you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1192.948,"endTime":1196.528,"body":"critical metrics like uptime, like"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1196.678,"endTime":1200.758,"body":"efficiency, like, you know, like, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1196.678,"endTime":1200.758,"body":"know, any sort of degradation over time,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1201.038,"endTime":1204.408,"body":"roundtrip efficiency, all those things"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1201.038,"endTime":1204.408,"body":"come back into, into our data platform"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1204.838,"endTime":1210.198,"body":"and we're able to use that fleet to fully"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1204.838,"endTime":1210.198,"body":"optimize, you know, the current operation"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1210.428,"endTime":1211.808,"body":"and also our future product development."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1212.538,"endTime":1217.328,"body":"So, you know, I think that that that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1212.538,"endTime":1217.328,"body":"that strategy of sort of, modularization"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1217.448,"endTime":1221.058,"body":"and and using that modularization"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1217.448,"endTime":1221.058,"body":"to drive standardization, using"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1221.058,"endTime":1224.378,"body":"that standardization to drive, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1221.058,"endTime":1224.378,"body":"know, ultra high quality and lowest"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1224.378,"endTime":1228.228,"body":"possible cost has been has been one"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1224.378,"endTime":1228.228,"body":"that's played out very well for us."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1228.778,"endTime":1229.278,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1229.318,"endTime":1229.568,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1229.888,"endTime":1234.138,"body":"And so if you are getting the data back"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1229.888,"endTime":1234.138,"body":"from the batteries, does that mean that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1234.138,"endTime":1237.898,"body":"you are also maintaining and managing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1234.138,"endTime":1237.898,"body":"the batteries for your customers?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1237.908,"endTime":1240.478,"body":"Or is that something that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1237.908,"endTime":1240.478,"body":"you hand off to them?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1240.478,"endTime":1241.248,"body":"Or is it a mix?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1242.458,"endTime":1243.088,"body":"It really depends."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1243.298,"endTime":1248.668,"body":"Um, I would say in some instances, we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1243.298,"endTime":1248.668,"body":"directly support batteries in the field."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1248.788,"endTime":1252.068,"body":"Increasingly what we are trying"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1248.788,"endTime":1252.068,"body":"to do, especially as we go to much"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1252.088,"endTime":1255.588,"body":"larger projects, you know, we're not"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1252.088,"endTime":1255.588,"body":"the ones who are typically pouring"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1255.588,"endTime":1258.758,"body":"the concrete and running wires and,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1255.588,"endTime":1258.758,"body":"you know, doing all the good install"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1258.758,"endTime":1261.368,"body":"stuff on a, on a particular site."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1261.438,"endTime":1266.248,"body":"So what we've been moving towards is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1261.438,"endTime":1266.248,"body":"a mode where we provide sort of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1266.248,"endTime":1271.708,"body":"expertise and know how, and then we use,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1266.248,"endTime":1271.708,"body":"you know, local teams to go and, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1271.708,"endTime":1275.558,"body":"from, from 3rd party contractors to go and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1271.708,"endTime":1275.558,"body":"not only build the, the facilities in the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1275.568,"endTime":1279.168,"body":"1st place, not only install the batteries"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1275.568,"endTime":1279.168,"body":"themselves when they land on site, but"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1279.168,"endTime":1282.388,"body":"also provide any of the, any of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1279.168,"endTime":1282.388,"body":"support that might be needed over time."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1283.158,"endTime":1287.278,"body":"1 of the things that are our customers"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1283.158,"endTime":1287.278,"body":"and, and, and they're, and they're, their"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1287.278,"endTime":1290.268,"body":"suppliers or their, their the people"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1287.278,"endTime":1290.268,"body":"who are providing those maintenance"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1290.268,"endTime":1294.928,"body":"services like about our batteries is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1290.268,"endTime":1294.928,"body":"that there's nothing in a vanadium"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1294.928,"endTime":1298.548,"body":"flow battery that that will go that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1294.928,"endTime":1298.548,"body":"will that will trigger, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1298.548,"endTime":1299.928,"body":"maintenance fairly quickly, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1299.928,"endTime":1302.008,"body":"Because we've got a fairly modular nature."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1302.548,"endTime":1307.898,"body":"You know, we, if we see you know, the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1302.548,"endTime":1307.898,"body":"performance of 1 of a, an array of, say,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1307.928,"endTime":1312.178,"body":"300 of our batteries starting to change"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1307.928,"endTime":1312.178,"body":"in a way that might indicate that some"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1312.178,"endTime":1315.803,"body":"maintenance might be required, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1312.178,"endTime":1315.803,"body":"that's I think that's an activity we can"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1315.803,"endTime":1319.383,"body":"plan for, you know, three to six months"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1315.803,"endTime":1319.383,"body":"out, not where we have to roll a truck"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1319.383,"endTime":1323.813,"body":"to site right away, which can become"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1319.383,"endTime":1323.813,"body":"very, very expensive, as you can imagine."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1323.933,"endTime":1327.943,"body":"So, the nature of the technology is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1323.933,"endTime":1327.943,"body":"such that we can that we can you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1327.993,"endTime":1333.023,"body":"plan those maintenance activities"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1327.993,"endTime":1333.023,"body":"fairly proactively and therefore keep"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1333.353,"endTime":1336.633,"body":"that, as I mentioned, that levelized"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1333.353,"endTime":1336.633,"body":"cost of storage as low as possible"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1336.643,"endTime":1337.723,"body":"over the life of the solution."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1338.248,"endTime":1338.768,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1339.198,"endTime":1339.578,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1339.658,"endTime":1339.928,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1340.848,"endTime":1346.053,"body":"Talk to me a bit as well about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1340.848,"endTime":1346.053,"body":"the, the market for energy storage,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1346.063,"endTime":1351.183,"body":"because with the deployment of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1346.063,"endTime":1351.183,"body":"renewables, it's obviously growing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1351.633,"endTime":1355.473,"body":"Also, with the deployment,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1351.633,"endTime":1355.473,"body":"increasing deployment of increasing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1355.543,"endTime":1360.623,"body":"electrification of transportation,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1355.543,"endTime":1360.623,"body":"for example, the competition for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1360.923,"endTime":1362.843,"body":"batteries has got to be growing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1362.843,"endTime":1368.243,"body":"I know we're bringing more battery"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1362.843,"endTime":1368.243,"body":"plants online, but for example, for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1368.343,"endTime":1375.023,"body":"grid energy storage the the utility"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1368.343,"endTime":1375.023,"body":"companies or the people who are"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1375.033,"endTime":1379.603,"body":"building the wind farms and solar parks"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1375.033,"endTime":1379.603,"body":"and tidal and et cetera, et cetera."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1380.133,"endTime":1381.153,"body":"They're looking for batteries."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1381.153,"endTime":1384.403,"body":"They don't care whether they're"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1381.153,"endTime":1384.403,"body":"lithium or vanadium or whatever."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1384.863,"endTime":1387.363,"body":"What they want is storage,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1384.863,"endTime":1387.363,"body":"whereas the car manufacturers"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1387.363,"endTime":1388.403,"body":"are not looking for vanadium."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1388.703,"endTime":1395.763,"body":"So obviously there is less competition"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1388.703,"endTime":1395.763,"body":"for what you guys are producing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1396.613,"endTime":1398.323,"body":"That's got to be working"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1396.613,"endTime":1398.323,"body":"in your favor, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1399.823,"endTime":1400.813,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1400.813,"endTime":1404.223,"body":"I mean, lithium, lithium ion batteries"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1400.813,"endTime":1404.223,"body":"have done a phenomenal job of proving"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1431.683,"endTime":1436.373,"body":"that storage can be a very helpful and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1431.683,"endTime":1436.373,"body":"for developers, a very profitable part"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1436.393,"endTime":1441.473,"body":"of the electric grid, but where they've"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1436.393,"endTime":1441.473,"body":"proven that capability, it's, it's,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1441.5230000000001,"endTime":1447.063,"body":"it's at sort of the, you know, the, the,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1441.5230000000001,"endTime":1447.063,"body":"the, the pointy front end of electricity"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1447.063,"endTime":1451.633,"body":"markets where, you know, for example,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1447.063,"endTime":1451.633,"body":"the kind of prices that we saw in the UK"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1451.683,"endTime":1455.333,"body":"last winter, where you were people were"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1451.683,"endTime":1455.333,"body":"paying 2000 or 2000 pounds a megawatt"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1455.333,"endTime":1458.683,"body":"hour for energy, for example, I mean,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1455.333,"endTime":1458.683,"body":"batteries can be very, very profitable in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1458.683,"endTime":1463.2530000000002,"body":"those kinds of areas, but it's a limited"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1458.683,"endTime":1463.2530000000002,"body":"number of time cycles per year and a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1463.2530000000002,"endTime":1466.7530000000002,"body":"number of limited number of hours per day"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1463.2530000000002,"endTime":1466.7530000000002,"body":"where those numbers tend to make sense."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1467.538,"endTime":1473.268,"body":"What we are seeing around the world"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1467.538,"endTime":1473.268,"body":"is a progressive shift to more to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1473.278,"endTime":1478.328,"body":"longer duration batteries, to higher"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1473.278,"endTime":1478.328,"body":"throughput batteries, and that's driven,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1478.3880000000001,"endTime":1482.1480000000001,"body":"it depends on the jurisdiction, how"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1478.3880000000001,"endTime":1482.1480000000001,"body":"that is, how that push is happening."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1482.768,"endTime":1487.038,"body":"For example in Australia, where"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1482.768,"endTime":1487.038,"body":"we're just building one of our"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1487.038,"endTime":1488.258,"body":"largest projects right now."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1488.788,"endTime":1492.218,"body":"They have essentially, the grid operator"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1488.788,"endTime":1492.218,"body":"has essentially said, look, we're not"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1492.218,"endTime":1495.538,"body":"going to let you put any more solar"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1492.218,"endTime":1495.538,"body":"generation onto the grid unless you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1495.548,"endTime":1498.958,"body":"have a way of capturing that solar"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1495.548,"endTime":1498.958,"body":"generation and delivering it back onto"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1498.958,"endTime":1502.978,"body":"the grid when it's more valuable, because"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1498.958,"endTime":1502.978,"body":"they already have negative pricing for"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1502.978,"endTime":1505.3880000000001,"body":"electricity many, many hours of the year."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1505.448,"endTime":1509.545,"body":"Incremental solar is not hugely"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1505.448,"endTime":1509.545,"body":"valuable without having having storage"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1509.545,"endTime":1513.125,"body":"available and indeed is starting to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1509.545,"endTime":1513.125,"body":"look more and more like a burden to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1513.125,"endTime":1514.845,"body":"those, to those to those grid operators."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1515.375,"endTime":1519.2350000000001,"body":"Conversely, where we see in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1515.375,"endTime":1519.2350000000001,"body":"other jurisdictions where where"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1519.2350000000001,"endTime":1522.2250000000001,"body":"so that's, that's sort of the,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1519.2350000000001,"endTime":1522.2250000000001,"body":"the you know, the operator push."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1522.535,"endTime":1526.1200000000001,"body":"We're also seeing other jurisdictions that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1522.535,"endTime":1526.1200000000001,"body":"are starting to look at different types"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1526.1200000000001,"endTime":1528.97,"body":"of market direct markets for the battery."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1528.97,"endTime":1532.79,"body":"So rather than saying, look, you can't"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1528.97,"endTime":1532.79,"body":"install more renewables without a battery."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1533.46,"endTime":1537.02,"body":"Other markets are saying, look, we're"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1533.46,"endTime":1537.02,"body":"going to create market structures"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1537.02,"endTime":1542.97,"body":"explicitly for long duration capacity"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1537.02,"endTime":1542.97,"body":"or zero carbon capacity or things like"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1542.97,"endTime":1547.3300000000002,"body":"that, that would directly incentivize the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1542.97,"endTime":1547.3300000000002,"body":"construction of batteries by themselves."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1547.93,"endTime":1550.01,"body":"You know, in both in both both can work."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1550.1100000000001,"endTime":1555.0,"body":"And and, and we're, we're sort of happy"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1550.1100000000001,"endTime":1555.0,"body":"to adjust to what are the stipulations"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1555.0,"endTime":1557.79,"body":"in particular markets are to make those"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1555.0,"endTime":1557.79,"body":"to make those kinds of projects happen,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1558.49,"endTime":1561.8200000000002,"body":"but look to your, to your fundamental"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1558.49,"endTime":1561.8200000000002,"body":"point you know, competition with mobility."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1562.31,"endTime":1563.03,"body":"It's absolutely true."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1563.03,"endTime":1565.04,"body":"I mean, one of the things that we've"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1563.03,"endTime":1565.04,"body":"often thought about is, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1565.04,"endTime":1568.97,"body":"if you're a lithium ion battery"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1565.04,"endTime":1568.97,"body":"manufacturer, and you could wrap a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1569.0,"endTime":1571.8700000000001,"body":"metal box around your battery and put"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1569.0,"endTime":1571.8700000000001,"body":"it in the field, or you could wrap."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1572.575,"endTime":1576.865,"body":"some very sexy, very fast, high tech"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1572.575,"endTime":1576.865,"body":"piece of automotive machinery around"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1576.865,"endTime":1578.035,"body":"your battery and put it out on the road."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1578.2250000000001,"endTime":1579.335,"body":"Which one would you rather do?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1579.345,"endTime":1582.265,"body":"I mean, the cars are going to win every"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1579.345,"endTime":1582.265,"body":"time you know, whether it's, whether"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1582.265,"endTime":1585.2450000000001,"body":"it's just from a market's perspective"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1582.265,"endTime":1585.2450000000001,"body":"or whether it's from a, you know, value"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1585.2450000000001,"endTime":1588.7250000000001,"body":"add perspective you know, we think that,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1585.2450000000001,"endTime":1588.7250000000001,"body":"you know, lithium is going to continue"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1588.7250000000001,"endTime":1592.935,"body":"to dominate that automotive space"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1588.7250000000001,"endTime":1592.935,"body":"opening a window for For for, for, for"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1592.935,"endTime":1596.905,"body":"stationary storage, especially as we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1592.935,"endTime":1596.905,"body":"look towards those much longer duration"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1596.905,"endTime":1600.885,"body":"applications and trying to, trying to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1596.905,"endTime":1600.885,"body":"achieve, you know, what is ultimately we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1600.885,"endTime":1603.2350000000001,"body":"hope net zero baseload around the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1603.8400000000001,"endTime":1605.04,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1605.4,"endTime":1609.53,"body":"And talk to me a little bit about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1605.4,"endTime":1609.53,"body":"that as well, because idea that, you"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1609.53,"endTime":1612.92,"body":"know, the old trope that we always"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1609.53,"endTime":1612.92,"body":"hear that the sun isn't always shining"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1612.92,"endTime":1614.28,"body":"and the wind isn't always blowing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1615.42,"endTime":1621.8200000000002,"body":"There are, though, times when, you there"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1615.42,"endTime":1621.8200000000002,"body":"isn't sun, or obviously every night, for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1621.8200000000002,"endTime":1627.72,"body":"example, but cloud cover, intermittent"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1621.8200000000002,"endTime":1627.72,"body":"cloud cover, or the variability of wind"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1628.23,"endTime":1633.4,"body":"and batteries can step in there really"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1628.23,"endTime":1633.4,"body":"nicely, but also increasingly we're"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1633.4,"endTime":1637.5700000000002,"body":"starting to see, or are we, correct"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1633.4,"endTime":1637.5700000000002,"body":"me if I'm wrong, we're starting to see"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1637.96,"endTime":1644.79,"body":"more and more grids looking for, to your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1637.96,"endTime":1644.79,"body":"point, longer duration energy storage."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1644.8,"endTime":1652.15,"body":"So is the sweet spot of that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1644.8,"endTime":1652.15,"body":"shifting in terms of economics,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1652.18,"endTime":1656.44,"body":"because batteries are becoming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1652.18,"endTime":1656.44,"body":"cheaper, solar is becoming cheaper."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1656.8300000000002,"endTime":1661.28,"body":"And so maybe the sweet spot for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1656.8300000000002,"endTime":1661.28,"body":"that was an hour of storage for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1661.91,"endTime":1664.405,"body":"a renewable generation facility."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1664.685,"endTime":1665.9750000000001,"body":"Now it's two hours."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1666.2250000000001,"endTime":1667.385,"body":"Now it's four hours."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1667.7050000000002,"endTime":1668.535,"body":"Now it's eight hours."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1668.7350000000001,"endTime":1669.765,"body":"I'm not sure where it falls."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1669.765,"endTime":1672.535,"body":"It probably depends on region"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1669.765,"endTime":1672.535,"body":"as well and the technologies."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1672.545,"endTime":1677.065,"body":"But is is that shifting from shorter"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1672.545,"endTime":1677.065,"body":"durations to longer durations now?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1677.065,"endTime":1680.065,"body":"And are we seeing, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1677.065,"endTime":1680.065,"body":"more be deployed for that reason?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1681.4650000000001,"endTime":1682.685,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1682.765,"endTime":1685.6950000000002,"body":"And and I would you know, probably"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1682.765,"endTime":1685.6950000000002,"body":"the most comprehensive and interesting"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1685.6950000000002,"endTime":1689.2150000000001,"body":"piece of work that we've seen in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1685.6950000000002,"endTime":1689.2150000000001,"body":"this area is, the US Department of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1689.2150000000001,"endTime":1692.9650000000001,"body":"Energy published a report earlier this"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1689.2150000000001,"endTime":1692.9650000000001,"body":"year called Pathways To Commercial"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1692.9650000000001,"endTime":1694.575,"body":"Liftoff For Long Duration Storage."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1695.105,"endTime":1700.06,"body":"And what that report looked at, I think"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1695.105,"endTime":1700.06,"body":"in one of the most comprehensive ways"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1700.06,"endTime":1705.93,"body":"I've seen is if we look at what the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1700.06,"endTime":1705.93,"body":"grid is going to be in 2030, 2040, 2050,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1706.9,"endTime":1713.77,"body":"what percentage of the energy storage"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1706.9,"endTime":1713.77,"body":"on the grid to achieve that sort of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1713.78,"endTime":1718.05,"body":"ultimate level of, of, of anticipated"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1713.78,"endTime":1718.05,"body":"or desired decarbonization will be"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1718.05,"endTime":1721.64,"body":"served by, you know, what they call,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1718.05,"endTime":1721.64,"body":"you know, short duration, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1721.64,"endTime":1723.24,"body":"long duration and seasonal storage."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1723.94,"endTime":1729.7,"body":"And if you look at what they are"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1723.94,"endTime":1729.7,"body":"presenting and I think it's very, it's,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1729.73,"endTime":1733.01,"body":"it's, I mean, no, no, no models are right."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1733.02,"endTime":1734.8600000000001,"body":"All models are useful isn't"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1733.02,"endTime":1734.8600000000001,"body":"that the old expression."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1735.19,"endTime":1737.8,"body":"You know, it's certainly it's,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1735.19,"endTime":1737.8,"body":"it's, it's, they present it in,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1737.8,"endTime":1739.03,"body":"I think, a very logical way."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1740.4850000000001,"endTime":1743.085,"body":"Shorter duration storage is still"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1740.4850000000001,"endTime":1743.085,"body":"going to have a massive part to play."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1743.085,"endTime":1744.545,"body":"There will always be intermittency."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1744.605,"endTime":1747.085,"body":"There will always be, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1744.605,"endTime":1747.085,"body":"know, connection constraints."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1747.095,"endTime":1749.4850000000001,"body":"You know, there are things"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1747.095,"endTime":1749.4850000000001,"body":"that need to be worked around."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1749.9850000000001,"endTime":1754.085,"body":"That middle ground of you know, where"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1749.9850000000001,"endTime":1754.085,"body":"we're focused, you know, essentially,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1754.155,"endTime":1758.345,"body":"you know, how to take electricity from"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1754.155,"endTime":1758.345,"body":"the daytime when the sun's shining"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1758.415,"endTime":1761.815,"body":"and push it into the nighttime when"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1758.415,"endTime":1761.815,"body":"the sun isn't is, is, is potentially"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1761.815,"endTime":1765.415,"body":"a, you know, a pretty big part of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1761.815,"endTime":1765.415,"body":"it because it's so regular, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1765.425,"endTime":1768.76,"body":"You know, we know that the sun, we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1765.425,"endTime":1768.76,"body":"get good solar generation in a lot"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1768.76,"endTime":1769.7,"body":"of regions in the middle of the day."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1769.7,"endTime":1773.3200000000002,"body":"We know that we get good wind"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1769.7,"endTime":1773.3200000000002,"body":"generation in coastal areas, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1773.3200000000002,"endTime":1774.2,"body":"know, in the morning and evening."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1774.68,"endTime":1777.21,"body":"So those are sort of very regular"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1774.68,"endTime":1777.21,"body":"things that we can plan infrastructure"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1777.21,"endTime":1780.3200000000002,"body":"around and we can use to deliver a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1777.21,"endTime":1780.3200000000002,"body":"large, a large part of that sort of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1780.3500000000001,"endTime":1782.67,"body":"total, total amount of energy needed."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1782.95,"endTime":1785.74,"body":"But then there's that, that seasonal"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1782.95,"endTime":1785.74,"body":"portion, you know, how do we make sure"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1785.74,"endTime":1790.875,"body":"that you know, the, the, the, the doldrums"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1785.74,"endTime":1790.875,"body":"of February can be served by, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1790.875,"endTime":1794.675,"body":"the wind power that was generated in,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1790.875,"endTime":1794.675,"body":"you know, the blustery days of November."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1794.675,"endTime":1797.355,"body":"I mean, those are, those"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1794.675,"endTime":1797.355,"body":"are you know, that is, is an"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1797.355,"endTime":1798.625,"body":"equally critical capability."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1799.275,"endTime":1803.525,"body":"What we find, what we find interesting"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1799.275,"endTime":1803.525,"body":"is that if you look at the absolute"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1803.585,"endTime":1808.2150000000001,"body":"magnitude of energy that is delivered"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1803.585,"endTime":1808.2150000000001,"body":"onto the grid, and I would use absolute"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1808.2150000000001,"endTime":1811.255,"body":"magnitude as a measure of relative value."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1811.76,"endTime":1816.43,"body":"Of energy deployed onto the grid in that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1811.76,"endTime":1816.43,"body":"future scenario, the vast majority of it"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1816.46,"endTime":1818.96,"body":"is coming from that middle segment, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1819.22,"endTime":1823.99,"body":"The number of terawatt hours"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1819.22,"endTime":1823.99,"body":"that will be delivered onto"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1823.99,"endTime":1825.93,"body":"the grid in a net zero future."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1826.89,"endTime":1830.46,"body":"disproportionately come from that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1826.89,"endTime":1830.46,"body":"middle ground, you know, more"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1830.46,"endTime":1833.69,"body":"than 10 hours of duration to less"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1830.46,"endTime":1833.69,"body":"than say 36 hours of duration."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1833.75,"endTime":1837.77,"body":"That is the sweet spot for"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1833.75,"endTime":1837.77,"body":"where the majority of that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1837.93,"endTime":1839.06,"body":"energy is going to come from."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1839.0700000000002,"endTime":1841.77,"body":"And that's where we're, where"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1839.0700000000002,"endTime":1841.77,"body":"we're really focusing our business."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1842.755,"endTime":1848.1950000000002,"body":"And is that for reasons"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1842.755,"endTime":1848.1950000000002,"body":"of economics or for reasons of there's"},{"speaker":"Tom 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cost."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1864.55,"endTime":1870.405,"body":"What that means is that we want to be"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1864.55,"endTime":1870.405,"body":"making use of every one of those vanadium"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1870.405,"endTime":1872.105,"body":"ions as much as humanly possible."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1872.4650000000001,"endTime":1875.835,"body":"That means, you know, regularly"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1872.4650000000001,"endTime":1875.835,"body":"charging and discharging those devices,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1875.865,"endTime":1878.865,"body":"making sure that that ultra high"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1875.865,"endTime":1878.865,"body":"throughput is something that means"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1878.865,"endTime":1882.2350000000001,"body":"we get very high utilization out of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1878.865,"endTime":1882.2350000000001,"body":"that little asset inside the battery."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1882.855,"endTime":1885.115,"body":"And that's what points us to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1882.855,"endTime":1885.115,"body":"that kind of middle ground."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1885.98,"endTime":1890.05,"body":"There's a lot of conversation around"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1885.98,"endTime":1890.05,"body":"today around much longer duration storage."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1890.14,"endTime":1893.0800000000002,"body":"You know, people who are looking at some"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1890.14,"endTime":1893.0800000000002,"body":"of the iron air batteries that are going"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1893.0800000000002,"endTime":1894.69,"body":"to serve hundreds of hours or longer."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1894.72,"endTime":1897.92,"body":"People who are looking at, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1894.72,"endTime":1897.92,"body":"either compressed air or, or storing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1897.92,"endTime":1901.54,"body":"hydrogen in underground salt caverns"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1897.92,"endTime":1901.54,"body":"that are focused on, you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1901.55,"endTime":1902.97,"body":"hundreds of thousands of hours."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1903.28,"endTime":1908.26,"body":"And, and what those technologies"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1903.28,"endTime":1908.26,"body":"share is an unbelievably low cost"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1908.42,"endTime":1911.5700000000002,"body":"of the energy storage mechanism."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1912.3600000000001,"endTime":1916.9,"body":"But they're combined with an"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1912.3600000000001,"endTime":1916.9,"body":"inability to cycle those forms"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1916.9,"endTime":1918.54,"body":"of storage very regularly."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1918.6000000000001,"endTime":1922.3500000000001,"body":"So it's, it's, you know, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1918.6000000000001,"endTime":1922.3500000000001,"body":"what my friends in the UK love to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1922.3600000000001,"endTime":1923.69,"body":"call horses for courses, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1923.7,"endTime":1927.9,"body":"There are times where you want to have"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1923.7,"endTime":1927.9,"body":"ultra high throughput, and there are times"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1927.9,"endTime":1932.97,"body":"where you want to have an ultra low cost"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1927.9,"endTime":1932.97,"body":"storage medium so that you can pack that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1932.97,"endTime":1936.73,"body":"energy away and deploy it back onto the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1932.97,"endTime":1936.73,"body":"grid, you know, weeks to months later,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1937.24,"endTime":1937.6200000000001,"body":"Nice."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1937.78,"endTime":1938.0700000000002,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1938.17,"endTime":1938.38,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1939.6000000000001,"endTime":1947.63,"body":"And are you finding, let's say, with"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1939.6000000000001,"endTime":1947.63,"body":"the falling, continuing falling cost"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1947.64,"endTime":1952.8700000000001,"body":"of solar in particular, but wind as"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1947.64,"endTime":1952.8700000000001,"body":"well and batteries, are you finding"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1952.9,"endTime":1959.8,"body":"that now in most markets, that the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1952.9,"endTime":1959.8,"body":"combination of solar plus storage is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1959.8,"endTime":1966.765,"body":"cost competitive versus the fossil"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1959.8,"endTime":1966.765,"body":"fuel, like gas plants or the equivalent."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1968.2,"endTime":1968.79,"body":"it's getting there."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1968.8400000000001,"endTime":1974.3700000000001,"body":"Look, our, our sort of Northstar as"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1968.8400000000001,"endTime":1974.3700000000001,"body":"a business is to be able to generate"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1974.42,"endTime":1978.41,"body":"renewable power, deliver renewable"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1974.42,"endTime":1978.41,"body":"power on demand at lower cost than"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1978.48,"endTime":1980.18,"body":"any fuel based source of electricity."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1980.47,"endTime":1982.3400000000001,"body":"And, you know, we talked a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1980.47,"endTime":1982.3400000000001,"body":"little bit earlier on about the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1982.3400000000001,"endTime":1985.1100000000001,"body":"levelized cost of storage as a,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1982.3400000000001,"endTime":1985.1100000000001,"body":"as a, as a development metric."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1985.1100000000001,"endTime":1986.46,"body":"And that's something we talk about a lot."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1987.3500000000001,"endTime":1991.02,"body":"That's the reason for that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1987.3500000000001,"endTime":1991.02,"body":"is because of that target."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1992.93,"endTime":1996.24,"body":"Wind and solar, most regions of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1992.93,"endTime":1996.24,"body":"world, you can generate for somewhere"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1996.24,"endTime":1998.29,"body":"between 20 and 30 dollars a megawatt hour."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1998.605,"endTime":2003.405,"body":"Right now if you can, and, and, and, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":1998.605,"endTime":2003.405,"body":"know, gas generation, coal generation, et"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2003.405,"endTime":2007.325,"body":"cetera, et cetera, start somewhere around"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2003.405,"endTime":2007.325,"body":"the 80 dollar a megawatt hour range."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2007.585,"endTime":2011.005,"body":"That means you've got about 50"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2007.585,"endTime":2011.005,"body":"dollars per megawatt hour to play"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2011.005,"endTime":2015.115,"body":"with to take that renewable power"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2011.005,"endTime":2015.115,"body":"and make it absolutely dispatchable."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2015.4750000000001,"endTime":2017.385,"body":"That's that levelized"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2015.4750000000001,"endTime":2017.385,"body":"cost of storage number."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2017.4550000000002,"endTime":2021.9550000000002,"body":"If you can get the levelized cost of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2017.4550000000002,"endTime":2021.9550000000002,"body":"storage down to 50 a megawatt hour or"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2021.9550000000002,"endTime":2027.2050000000002,"body":"below, suddenly you have a solution"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2021.9550000000002,"endTime":2027.2050000000002,"body":"that you can deploy to absolutely"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2027.2150000000001,"endTime":2029.085,"body":"offset all of those fuel based sources."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2029.505,"endTime":2033.095,"body":"Eliminate, you know, any carbon"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2029.505,"endTime":2033.095,"body":"producing form of electricity"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2033.4750000000001,"endTime":2038.242,"body":"and use when solar plus those low"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2033.4750000000001,"endTime":2038.242,"body":"cost batteries to to absolutely"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2038.242,"endTime":2039.872,"body":"accelerate that path towards net zero."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2041.5620000000001,"endTime":2046.352,"body":"That 50 dollar megawatt hour number is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2041.5620000000001,"endTime":2046.352,"body":"is is notable as well, because that's"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2047.0420000000001,"endTime":2051.832,"body":"what the Department of Energy has"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2047.0420000000001,"endTime":2051.832,"body":"identified as their 2030 moonshot goal."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2051.9719999999998,"endTime":2054.862,"body":"And we think that two things."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2054.882,"endTime":2059.402,"body":"First of all, there's, there's, there's,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2054.882,"endTime":2059.402,"body":"there's very little chance that lithium"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2059.402,"endTime":2063.7419999999997,"body":"or some of the incumbent technologies"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2059.402,"endTime":2063.7419999999997,"body":"are ever going to get there, but we do"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2063.7419999999997,"endTime":2065.2019999999998,"body":"have a crystal clear path to get there."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2065.212,"endTime":2067.812,"body":"And we think they're going to, we're"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2065.212,"endTime":2067.812,"body":"going to be there about three years"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2067.812,"endTime":2070.632,"body":"earlier than what the DOE are projecting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2070.7019999999998,"endTime":2071.042,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2071.672,"endTime":2071.922,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2072.562,"endTime":2076.722,"body":"And you had an announcement a couple"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2072.562,"endTime":2076.722,"body":"of weeks back that you came out with."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2076.722,"endTime":2078.132,"body":"Do you want to talk a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2076.722,"endTime":2078.132,"body":"little bit about that?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2078.4120000000003,"endTime":2078.832,"body":"We did."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2079.247,"endTime":2080.0570000000002,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2080.187,"endTime":2083.147,"body":"And this is, you know, in some ways"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2080.187,"endTime":2083.147,"body":"you know, continuing that same thread."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2083.167,"endTime":2087.0570000000002,"body":"You know, the, the, you know, we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2083.167,"endTime":2087.0570000000002,"body":"announced back in mid 2022 that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2087.0570000000002,"endTime":2091.087,"body":"they were going to allocate 350"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2087.0570000000002,"endTime":2091.087,"body":"million dollars for pioneering long"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2091.087,"endTime":2092.667,"body":"duration energy storage projects."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2093.167,"endTime":2098.327,"body":"We were thrilled to find out that we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2093.167,"endTime":2098.327,"body":"had been selected for not one, but"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2098.327,"endTime":2101.157,"body":"two of those of, of those programs."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2101.157,"endTime":2104.367,"body":"We were the only energy technology"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2101.157,"endTime":2104.367,"body":"provider that was selected twice."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2104.967,"endTime":2110.6420000000003,"body":"Our program with the d o e is"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2104.967,"endTime":2110.6420000000003,"body":"really focused on that levelized"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2110.6820000000002,"endTime":2111.8920000000003,"body":"cost of storage point, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2111.9120000000003,"endTime":2115.312,"body":"We, they are laser focused on"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2111.9120000000003,"endTime":2115.312,"body":"deploying these funds to get L"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2115.312,"endTime":2119.752,"body":"costs under 50 a megawatt hour to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2115.312,"endTime":2119.752,"body":"drive that future net zero grid."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2120.272,"endTime":2123.832,"body":"And and through these 2 programs"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2120.272,"endTime":2123.832,"body":"that we're going to be building"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2123.832,"endTime":2126.1620000000003,"body":"with them we we, we, we believe"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2123.832,"endTime":2126.1620000000003,"body":"we're going to get there."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2126.1620000000003,"endTime":2129.4120000000003,"body":"And we, they've now validated"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2126.1620000000003,"endTime":2129.4120000000003,"body":"that they seem to think the same"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2129.4120000000003,"endTime":2129.582,"body":"thing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2129.632,"endTime":2130.292,"body":"Congratulations."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2131.482,"endTime":2132.022,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2132.022,"endTime":2133.312,"body":"Yeah, no, it's tremendously exciting."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2133.3920000000003,"endTime":2138.062,"body":"This will be, these projects will see us"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2133.3920000000003,"endTime":2138.062,"body":"deploy 70, sorry, 84 megawatt hours worth"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2138.062,"endTime":2142.112,"body":"of our next generation product starting"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2138.062,"endTime":2142.112,"body":"starting in late 2024 or early 2025."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2143.372,"endTime":2147.442,"body":"We're going to be delivering first"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2143.372,"endTime":2147.442,"body":"12 megawatt hour array to partners at"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2147.442,"endTime":2151.062,"body":"Pacific Northwest National Labs, who"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2147.442,"endTime":2151.062,"body":"are have been one of the pretty eminent"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2151.072,"endTime":2154.982,"body":"researchers in energy technologies in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2151.072,"endTime":2154.982,"body":"general and battery technologies in"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2154.982,"endTime":2156.6620000000003,"body":"particular over the last few decades."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2157.122,"endTime":2163.032,"body":"And then we're going to be taking 5 of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2157.122,"endTime":2163.032,"body":"our initial 14 megawatt hour arrays and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2163.032,"endTime":2167.872,"body":"delivering those out to a series of of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2163.032,"endTime":2167.872,"body":"rural electricity co ops who are focused"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2167.872,"endTime":2173.032,"body":"on decarbonizing their, you know, local"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2167.872,"endTime":2173.032,"body":"generation and consumption and and, and,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2173.032,"endTime":2178.867,"body":"and using those, those 5 different sites"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2173.032,"endTime":2178.867,"body":"to really prove in a, diverse series"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2178.877,"endTime":2183.437,"body":"of applications, how our batteries can"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2178.877,"endTime":2183.437,"body":"can go and serve the electric grid."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2184.0370000000003,"endTime":2187.7870000000003,"body":"You know, one of the things that we think"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2184.0370000000003,"endTime":2187.7870000000003,"body":"that we think was really powerful in that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2187.837,"endTime":2191.357,"body":"in that application to realize the reason"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2187.837,"endTime":2191.357,"body":"that we got selected, not for the, not"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2191.357,"endTime":2194.5170000000003,"body":"just for the sort of deployment side of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2191.357,"endTime":2194.5170000000003,"body":"their program, but also the sort of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2194.527,"endTime":2198.617,"body":"research side of the program is because,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2194.527,"endTime":2198.617,"body":"you know, our battery is unique in that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2198.617,"endTime":2203.077,"body":"it combines that long duration capability"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2198.617,"endTime":2203.077,"body":"with that high throughput capability."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2203.277,"endTime":2207.467,"body":"And so to be able to take a battery,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2203.277,"endTime":2207.467,"body":"put it out into the field and say,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2207.467,"endTime":2211.087,"body":"okay, how can we absolutely drive"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2207.467,"endTime":2211.087,"body":"this thing to the nth degree?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2211.097,"endTime":2212.937,"body":"How do we get the maximum"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2211.097,"endTime":2212.937,"body":"performance out of this?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2212.937,"endTime":2216.797,"body":"How do we experiment with all of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2212.937,"endTime":2216.797,"body":"the different things that long"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2216.797,"endTime":2219.917,"body":"duration storage can potentially"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2216.797,"endTime":2219.917,"body":"provide because of that?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2220.222,"endTime":2222.652,"body":"You know, fundamentally"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2220.222,"endTime":2222.652,"body":"non degrading nature."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2223.002,"endTime":2227.262,"body":"We're a great platform from which to do"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2223.002,"endTime":2227.262,"body":"a lot of that commercial demonstration."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2227.442,"endTime":2232.632,"body":"So, we are, you know, obviously thrilled"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2227.442,"endTime":2232.632,"body":"at the validation of having DOE stand"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2232.632,"endTime":2235.872,"body":"beside us in some of these projects and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2232.632,"endTime":2235.872,"body":"are looking forward to getting them built."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2236.597,"endTime":2237.187,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2237.427,"endTime":2237.877,"body":"Fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2238.367,"endTime":2240.707,"body":"Matt, we're coming towards"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2238.367,"endTime":2240.707,"body":"the end of the podcast now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2240.707,"endTime":2245.847,"body":"Is there any question I haven't asked that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2240.707,"endTime":2245.847,"body":"you wish I had or any aspect of this we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2245.847,"endTime":2249.027,"body":"haven't touched on that you think it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2245.847,"endTime":2249.027,"body":"important for people to be aware of?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2250.5170000000003,"endTime":2254.497,"body":"Yeah, I mean, look, I,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2250.5170000000003,"endTime":2254.497,"body":"without trying to, without trying to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2254.507,"endTime":2257.257,"body":"be, you know, throw anyone under the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2254.507,"endTime":2257.257,"body":"bus or trying to be too self serving."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2257.277,"endTime":2262.247,"body":"I mean, I, you know, I'd love to just"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2257.277,"endTime":2262.247,"body":"there's a couple of sort of cautionary"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2262.247,"endTime":2266.237,"body":"notes or things that we've, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2262.247,"endTime":2266.237,"body":"the missteps that we've seen in the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2266.237,"endTime":2269.857,"body":"industry over the, oh God You know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2266.237,"endTime":2269.857,"body":"28 years that I've been involved"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2269.857,"endTime":2272.683,"body":"with it that I think is, is important"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2269.857,"endTime":2272.683,"body":"to things to people to think about."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2273.143,"endTime":2276.763,"body":"As we're moving into this new mode"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2273.143,"endTime":2276.763,"body":"of starting to deploy this sort"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2276.763,"endTime":2280.9230000000002,"body":"of broader set of of energy of,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2276.763,"endTime":2280.9230000000002,"body":"of energy storage technologies."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2281.303,"endTime":2285.523,"body":"One of them is, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2281.303,"endTime":2285.523,"body":"this interesting interplay between"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2285.523,"endTime":2286.783,"body":"technologies and markets, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2286.803,"endTime":2289.9030000000002,"body":"And I often say that, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2286.803,"endTime":2289.9030000000002,"body":"technologies need markets to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2289.913,"endTime":2292.953,"body":"scale, but markets don't exist"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2289.913,"endTime":2292.953,"body":"until the technology is proven."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2293.473,"endTime":2295.543,"body":"And there's this, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2293.473,"endTime":2295.543,"body":"this, there's this, there's this"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2295.543,"endTime":2297.893,"body":"chicken and egg thing that, that"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2295.543,"endTime":2297.893,"body":"we really need to get through."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2298.203,"endTime":2304.113,"body":"The risk is that you end up"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2298.203,"endTime":2304.113,"body":"pigeonholing new technologies and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2304.113,"endTime":2306.943,"body":"new capabilities based on what"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2304.113,"endTime":2306.943,"body":"incumbents are already able to do."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2307.393,"endTime":2310.898,"body":"You know, we're seeing this in some of"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2307.393,"endTime":2310.898,"body":"the markets we serve today where you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2310.928,"endTime":2312.648,"body":"people see the value of long duration."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2312.658,"endTime":2315.7780000000002,"body":"They know that they're going to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2312.658,"endTime":2315.7780000000002,"body":"need batteries like ours to, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2315.7780000000002,"endTime":2319.2580000000003,"body":"know, have their projects deliver"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2315.7780000000002,"endTime":2319.2580000000003,"body":"the most revenue into the future."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2319.638,"endTime":2322.738,"body":"But, you know, what is paying,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2319.638,"endTime":2322.738,"body":"what is paying for those projects"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2322.738,"endTime":2325.868,"body":"right now is a series of markets"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2322.738,"endTime":2325.868,"body":"designed for lithium ion."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2326.243,"endTime":2329.9030000000002,"body":"And, you know, breaking that linkage"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2326.243,"endTime":2329.9030000000002,"body":"and making sure that we've got a way"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2329.953,"endTime":2335.6730000000002,"body":"of, of, of, of funding broad scale"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2329.953,"endTime":2335.6730000000002,"body":"deployment beyond those narrow market"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2335.6730000000002,"endTime":2339.023,"body":"structures is, is, is, I think, critically"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2335.6730000000002,"endTime":2339.023,"body":"important, not just for us, but, you"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2339.023,"endTime":2342.223,"body":"know, for all of the new technologies"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2339.023,"endTime":2342.223,"body":"that are coming into this space."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2343.193,"endTime":2347.493,"body":"You know, the other one is, is, and,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2343.193,"endTime":2347.493,"body":"and, and, and, you know, rightly or"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2347.493,"endTime":2350.863,"body":"wrongly, no matter what side of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2347.493,"endTime":2350.863,"body":"Atlantic Ocean you sit on, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2350.873,"endTime":2355.323,"body":"the, the, the Inflation Reduction Act"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2350.873,"endTime":2355.323,"body":"I think has spurred a really critical"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2355.323,"endTime":2359.123,"body":"conversation in our industry around"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2355.323,"endTime":2359.123,"body":"the importance of industrial policy."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2359.593,"endTime":2364.253,"body":"You know, we, I think have been very"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2359.593,"endTime":2364.253,"body":"much look, we've, we've, in some"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2364.253,"endTime":2367.303,"body":"ways have missed the boat in the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2364.253,"endTime":2367.303,"body":"solar world, for example, right?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2367.303,"endTime":2370.823,"body":"We've got a very high geographic"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2367.303,"endTime":2370.823,"body":"concentration of where a lot of solar"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2370.823,"endTime":2371.983,"body":"products are being manufactured."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2372.373,"endTime":2376.553,"body":"And, and we don't, you know, if,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2372.373,"endTime":2376.553,"body":"if renewable energy is going to"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2376.563,"endTime":2380.293,"body":"be, you know, the future of the"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2376.563,"endTime":2380.293,"body":"energy market, which in many ways"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2380.293,"endTime":2382.063,"body":"is the biggest market in the world."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2382.483,"endTime":2386.053,"body":"You know, all of our countries that we"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2382.483,"endTime":2386.053,"body":"live in need to make sure that we retain"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2387.203,"endTime":2390.253,"body":"an industrial policy, retain and develop"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2387.203,"endTime":2390.253,"body":"an industrial policy that allows us"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2390.253,"endTime":2395.093,"body":"to continue to benefit from, you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2390.253,"endTime":2395.093,"body":"the construction, the manufacturing"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2395.103,"endTime":2397.793,"body":"and the operation of these products."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2397.948,"endTime":2401.868,"body":"You know, I think that that has was a"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2397.948,"endTime":2401.868,"body":"bit of a misstep in the solar world."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2401.928,"endTime":2406.118,"body":"And I'm, and I'm hoping that you know,"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2401.928,"endTime":2406.118,"body":"with an increased focus on what domestic"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2406.118,"endTime":2409.888,"body":"industrial policy should look like"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2406.118,"endTime":2409.888,"body":"in the face of the kind of massive"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2409.888,"endTime":2414.288,"body":"upheaval, upheaval in in, in energy"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2409.888,"endTime":2414.288,"body":"that battery technologies and other"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2414.288,"endTime":2415.818,"body":"renewable technologies are going to drive."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2416.198,"endTime":2418.628,"body":"That is something well worth considering."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2419.793,"endTime":2420.333,"body":"Makes sense."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2420.603,"endTime":2421.083,"body":"Makes sense."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2421.083,"endTime":2421.273,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2421.573,"endTime":2421.833,"body":"Cool."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2421.983,"endTime":2423.963,"body":"Matt, that has been fascinating."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2424.333,"endTime":2428.693,"body":"If people would like to know more"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2424.333,"endTime":2428.693,"body":"about yourself or any of the things"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2428.693,"endTime":2431.433,"body":"we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2428.693,"endTime":2431.433,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2432.948,"endTime":2433.878,"body":"Either one of two things."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2433.918,"endTime":2435.718,"body":"You can go to Invinity's website."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2435.728,"endTime":2436.598,"body":"That's infinity."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2436.598,"endTime":2439.948,"body":"But with a V for vanadium"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2436.598,"endTime":2439.948,"body":"triple W dot invinity dot com."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2440.458,"endTime":2444.158,"body":"Or you can find me on linkedin and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2440.458,"endTime":2444.158,"body":"and and, and track me down there."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2444.543,"endTime":2444.933,"body":"Perfect."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2445.103,"endTime":2445.433,"body":"Perfect."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2445.823,"endTime":2446.8830000000003,"body":"Matt, that's been fantastic."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2446.8830000000003,"endTime":2448.463,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2446.8830000000003,"endTime":2448.463,"body":"to the podcast today."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2449.7980000000002,"endTime":2450.468,"body":"Thanks so much, Tom."},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2450.538,"endTime":2452.438,"body":"Always great to chat and"},{"speaker":"MattHarper","startTime":2450.538,"endTime":2452.438,"body":"we'll speak to you again."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2453.552,"endTime":2455.422,"body":"Okay, we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2453.552,"endTime":2455.422,"body":"come to the end of the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2456.1420000000003,"endTime":2457.252,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2458.112,"endTime":2462.262,"body":"If you'd like to know more about the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2458.112,"endTime":2462.262,"body":"Climate Confident podcast, feel free to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2462.272,"endTime":2466.1820000000002,"body":"drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2466.4320000000002,"endTime":2469.9120000000003,"body":"com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2470.482,"endTime":2474.222,"body":"If you like the show, please don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2470.482,"endTime":2474.222,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2474.242,"endTime":2478.722,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2474.242,"endTime":2478.722,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2479.352,"endTime":2482.312,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2479.352,"endTime":2482.312,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2482.512,"endTime":2485.042,"body":"It really does help new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2482.512,"endTime":2485.042,"body":"people to find the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2486.132,"endTime":2486.582,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2487.252,"endTime":2488.172,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}