{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":3.581,"endTime":6.951,"body":"If you build a complete"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":3.581,"endTime":6.951,"body":"system with renewables and battery only,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":7.301,"endTime":12.921,"body":"versus one with renewables, battery and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":7.301,"endTime":12.921,"body":"flexible engine, there's a difference"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":12.931,"endTime":19.961,"body":"of 17 billion dollars in investment in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":12.931,"endTime":19.961,"body":"only Chile between these two systems."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":20.251,"endTime":21.561,"body":"So it's a substantial difference."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":22.146,"endTime":27.786,"body":"On energy security and sustainability,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":22.146,"endTime":27.786,"body":"they will come to the same level but"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":27.786,"endTime":29.576,"body":"it's a substantial difference in cost."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.571,"endTime":32.641,"body":"Good morning, good"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":30.571,"endTime":32.641,"body":"afternoon, or good evening,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":32.651,"endTime":34.151,"body":"wherever you are in the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.471,"endTime":38.201,"body":"This is the Climate Confident"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":34.471,"endTime":38.201,"body":"podcast, the number one podcast"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.341,"endTime":42.111,"body":"showcasing best practices in climate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":38.341,"endTime":42.111,"body":"emission reductions and removals."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":42.541,"endTime":44.481,"body":"And I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":44.641,"endTime":48.401,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":44.641,"endTime":48.401,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":48.561,"endTime":50.921,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":51.982,"endTime":52.462,"body":"Hi, everyone."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":52.462,"endTime":55.732,"body":"Welcome to episode 203 of the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":52.462,"endTime":55.732,"body":"climate confident podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":56.122,"endTime":57.442,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":57.442,"endTime":60.952,"body":"And before we kick off today's show,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":57.442,"endTime":60.952,"body":"I want to take a moment to express my"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":60.952,"endTime":63.952,"body":"sincere gratitude to all of this podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":63.982,"endTime":65.362,"body":"Amazing supporters."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":65.932,"endTime":69.382,"body":"Your support has been instrumental in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":65.932,"endTime":69.382,"body":"keeping this podcast going, and I'm really"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":69.382,"endTime":71.272,"body":"grateful for each and every one of you."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":71.87,"endTime":75.44,"body":"If you're not already a supporter, I'd"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":71.87,"endTime":75.44,"body":"like to encourage you to consider joining"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":75.44,"endTime":78.89,"body":"our community of like-minded individuals"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":75.44,"endTime":78.89,"body":"who are passionate about climate."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":79.64,"endTime":83.06,"body":"Supporting the podcast is easy and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":79.64,"endTime":83.06,"body":"affordable with options starting"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":83.06,"endTime":84.44,"body":"as low as just three euros."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":85.07,"endTime":87.74,"body":"That's less than the cost of a cup"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":85.07,"endTime":87.74,"body":"of coffee and your support will"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":87.74,"endTime":91.73,"body":"make a huge difference in helping"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":87.74,"endTime":91.73,"body":"me keep this show going strong."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":92.36,"endTime":95.78,"body":"To become a supporter you simply click"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":92.36,"endTime":95.78,"body":"on the support link in the show notes"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":95.78,"endTime":98.33,"body":"of this, or any episode or visit."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":98.72,"endTime":101.84,"body":"Tiny url.com/climate pod."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":102.74,"endTime":105.98,"body":"Now in today's episode, I'm"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":102.74,"endTime":105.98,"body":"talking to Anders Lindberg, who"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":105.98,"endTime":107.63,"body":"is president of Wärtsilä Energy."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":108.35,"endTime":110.84,"body":"And in the upcoming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":108.35,"endTime":110.84,"body":"episodes, I'll be talking to."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":111.39,"endTime":114.02,"body":"Angelo campus, CEO of Box Power."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":114.44,"endTime":122.123,"body":"Ollie Burch CEO of Among Equals, Thom"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":114.44,"endTime":122.123,"body":"Norman CEO of Farm Kind And professor"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":122.123,"endTime":124.433,"body":"Annalisa Bracco from Georgia Tech."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":124.583,"endTime":126.983,"body":"So some excellent episodes coming up."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":126.983,"endTime":130.673,"body":"So as I say, in radio land,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":126.983,"endTime":130.673,"body":"Don't touch that dial."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":131.333,"endTime":132.323,"body":"But back to today's show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":132.353,"endTime":135.093,"body":"As I mentioned today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":132.353,"endTime":135.093,"body":"I'm talking to Anders."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":135.573,"endTime":137.693,"body":"Anders welcome to the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":137.693,"endTime":139.313,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":140.394,"endTime":144.964,"body":"Yes, my name is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":140.394,"endTime":144.964,"body":"Anders Lindberg and I'm in Wärtsilä."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":145.454,"endTime":152.034,"body":"Wärtsilä is a company of approximately"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":145.454,"endTime":152.034,"body":"18,000 people and 6 billion in turnover."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":152.334,"endTime":154.524,"body":"Two businesses, marine and energy."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":155.094,"endTime":158.934,"body":"And I'm responsible for the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":155.094,"endTime":158.934,"body":"energy business in Wärtsilä."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":160.254,"endTime":160.914,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":161.264,"endTime":165.374,"body":"And could you give me a little"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":161.264,"endTime":165.374,"body":"bit of your background, Anders?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":165.384,"endTime":168.724,"body":"How did you get to be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":165.384,"endTime":168.724,"body":"president of Wärtsilä Energy?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":170.499,"endTime":173.519,"body":"So my background is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":170.499,"endTime":173.519,"body":"that I'm an electrical engineer from"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":173.519,"endTime":178.689,"body":"the beginning, and I worked with product"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":173.519,"endTime":178.689,"body":"businesses my whole life in basically"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":178.689,"endTime":184.219,"body":"in rail with trains, and the other one"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":178.689,"endTime":184.219,"body":"is in energy where I've both worked in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":184.219,"endTime":189.409,"body":"a renewable company doing offshore wind,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":184.219,"endTime":189.409,"body":"being responsible for all the products and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":189.409,"endTime":195.739,"body":"EPC in that company, and now I'm working"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":189.409,"endTime":195.739,"body":"for Wärtsilä since one and a half year,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":196.069,"endTime":197.729,"body":"being responsible for the energy business."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":199.279,"endTime":199.689,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":200.089,"endTime":206.539,"body":"And in all that time, what would"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":200.089,"endTime":206.539,"body":"you say has surprised you most in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":206.539,"endTime":207.939,"body":"your journey to where you are today?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":208.439,"endTime":212.029,"body":"I think that what is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":208.439,"endTime":212.029,"body":"the biggest surprise compared to when"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":212.029,"endTime":218.449,"body":"I started is the complexity of a big"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":212.029,"endTime":218.449,"body":"projects that has therefore encouraged me"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":218.489,"endTime":220.309,"body":"to stay in the product business and the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":222.804,"endTime":225.889,"body":"understanding of products today,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":222.804,"endTime":225.889,"body":"which I didn't have when I started."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":226.989,"endTime":227.329,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":227.439,"endTime":230.369,"body":"It's the collaboration"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":227.439,"endTime":230.369,"body":"of all stakeholders, but also"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":230.369,"endTime":234.339,"body":"the internal work, bringing a lot"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":230.369,"endTime":234.339,"body":"of different functions together."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":234.339,"endTime":238.869,"body":"So that I found exciting and,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":234.339,"endTime":238.869,"body":"that has been part of my own"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":238.869,"endTime":241.029,"body":"journey to work with big projects."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":242.079,"endTime":242.549,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":242.549,"endTime":249.626,"body":"And would you say it's more the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":242.549,"endTime":249.626,"body":"people side of these big projects"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":249.666,"endTime":252.526,"body":"or the technology side of these"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":249.666,"endTime":252.526,"body":"projects that's the most challenging?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":254.211,"endTime":257.271,"body":"I think that the most"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":254.211,"endTime":257.271,"body":"surprising was the people side of it."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":257.418,"endTime":262.408,"body":"When I started as an engineer, you're"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":257.418,"endTime":262.408,"body":"prepared for the engineering challenges,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":262.778,"endTime":267.378,"body":"but to realize that actually most of the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":262.778,"endTime":267.378,"body":"challenges are maybe on the people side"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":267.848,"endTime":272.858,"body":"on customer relations of the supplier"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":267.848,"endTime":272.858,"body":"and you relating to your suppliers"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":273.138,"endTime":277.408,"body":"and bringing everyone together because"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":273.138,"endTime":277.408,"body":"these are huge products that spans"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":277.408,"endTime":281.078,"body":"over many years and a lot of money."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":281.108,"endTime":284.202,"body":"So, It is fairly complex"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":281.108,"endTime":284.202,"body":"and it's the people issue."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":285.043,"endTime":285.993,"body":"Okay, good, very good."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":286.493,"endTime":290.873,"body":"And we're here today to talk about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":286.493,"endTime":290.873,"body":"the energy transition, which is"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":290.933,"endTime":293.603,"body":"obviously a massive global effort."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":294.603,"endTime":299.583,"body":"Wärtsilä has experience with"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":294.603,"endTime":299.583,"body":"over 200 power systems, more"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":299.583,"endTime":300.473,"body":"or less around the world."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":300.473,"endTime":306.363,"body":"Can you give us a broad view of what's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":300.473,"endTime":306.363,"body":"working well in moving towards renewables"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":306.443,"endTime":311.063,"body":"and where then on the other side, the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":306.443,"endTime":311.063,"body":"major stumbling blocks or challenges are?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":311.138,"endTime":311.158,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":312.453,"endTime":317.373,"body":"So, as you mentioned, we have a group"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":312.453,"endTime":317.373,"body":"that is doing power system analysis and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":317.373,"endTime":323.383,"body":"we have done studies of 200 systems around"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":317.373,"endTime":323.383,"body":"the world But I think that what is going"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":323.393,"endTime":328.953,"body":"really well is that many of these markets"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":323.393,"endTime":328.953,"body":"around the world have started to increase"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":329.203,"endTime":334.578,"body":"the amount of renewables and renewables"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":329.203,"endTime":334.578,"body":"have become so low in cost, if you look"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":334.598,"endTime":340.638,"body":"on solar PV and also onshore wind and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":334.598,"endTime":340.638,"body":"also offshore wind has really come down"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":340.638,"endTime":343.658,"body":"in cost and therefore being deployed."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":344.028,"endTime":347.998,"body":"However, what we see when we do these"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":344.028,"endTime":347.998,"body":"studies is that when you get up to a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":347.998,"endTime":354.178,"body":"certain level of amount of renewables"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":347.998,"endTime":354.178,"body":"in the system, unless you fix the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":354.178,"endTime":359.278,"body":"flexibility in the system, because"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":354.178,"endTime":359.278,"body":"all traditional systems have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":359.278,"endTime":361.758,"body":"generation that is highly inflexible."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":362.184,"endTime":366.534,"body":"And when you then add intermittent"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":362.184,"endTime":366.534,"body":"renewables,  you end up with a lot of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":366.534,"endTime":372.064,"body":"curtailment, since you cannot turn on"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":366.534,"endTime":372.064,"body":"and off the inflexible power plants."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":372.364,"endTime":376.504,"body":"So what we see in this analysis,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":372.364,"endTime":376.504,"body":"that we have done on these markets"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":376.534,"endTime":381.104,"body":"is that you need to increase the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":376.534,"endTime":381.104,"body":"flexibility, and we have from"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":381.104,"endTime":383.084,"body":"Wärtsilä's side two products to do that."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":383.414,"endTime":386.204,"body":"One is of course, the battery"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":383.414,"endTime":386.204,"body":"storage, which helps with the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":386.204,"endTime":391.904,"body":"flexibility, but only on milliseconds,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":386.204,"endTime":391.904,"body":"seconds, and maybe up to hours."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":392.374,"endTime":396.434,"body":"While we have the engine power"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":392.374,"endTime":396.434,"body":"plants that are very good in minutes,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":396.694,"endTime":402.014,"body":"hours and weeks and seasons to help"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":396.694,"endTime":402.014,"body":"with the flexibility of the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":402.344,"endTime":406.229,"body":"And this is really the key that we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":402.344,"endTime":406.229,"body":"see when we're looking to different"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":406.239,"endTime":409.719,"body":"markets that have started to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":406.239,"endTime":409.719,"body":"increase the amount of renewables."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":411.034,"endTime":413.844,"body":"Okay, and just for"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":411.034,"endTime":413.844,"body":"people listening who might not be"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":413.874,"endTime":420.344,"body":"aware, curtailment is when on a grid"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":413.874,"endTime":420.344,"body":"system, there's too much generation"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":420.674,"endTime":422.754,"body":"for the amount of demand that's there."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":422.764,"endTime":424.704,"body":"And so something has to be turned off."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":424.734,"endTime":429.564,"body":"And as you said, because a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":424.734,"endTime":429.564,"body":"the larger, older thermal often"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":429.614,"endTime":433.594,"body":"plants can't easily be turned"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":429.614,"endTime":433.594,"body":"on and off the renewables can."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":433.954,"endTime":436.844,"body":"And of course, if you're turning"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":433.954,"endTime":436.844,"body":"off renewables, that makes them"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":436.844,"endTime":444.254,"body":"less financially attractive to the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":436.844,"endTime":444.254,"body":"projects, you know, for rolling out"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":444.694,"endTime":446.974,"body":"more wind farms, more solar farms."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":447.044,"endTime":449.844,"body":"If they're likely to be curtailed,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":447.044,"endTime":449.844,"body":"then they're not going to make"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":449.844,"endTime":451.774,"body":"their investment back in time."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":451.784,"endTime":452.714,"body":"Is that a fair comment?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":453.469,"endTime":455.589,"body":"That's absolutely"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":453.469,"endTime":455.589,"body":"fair comment that we have seen"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":455.589,"endTime":460.669,"body":"this happening in markets, which"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":455.589,"endTime":460.669,"body":"invest a lot of in renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":461.134,"endTime":465.354,"body":"And the other thing is, of course,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":461.134,"endTime":465.354,"body":"that you continue to burn coal or"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":465.384,"endTime":469.014,"body":"other fossil fuel, which is also"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":465.384,"endTime":469.014,"body":"not good for the environment."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":469.014,"endTime":473.254,"body":"So these power plants stay on"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":469.014,"endTime":473.254,"body":"because they have minimum on times"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":473.254,"endTime":477.174,"body":"and you cannot turn them on and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":473.254,"endTime":477.174,"body":"off with the sun or with the wind."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":478.004,"endTime":483.564,"body":"So it's also not good for the environment,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":478.004,"endTime":483.564,"body":"besides that it is destroying the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":483.594,"endTime":485.714,"body":"business cases for the renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":485.804,"endTime":487.928,"body":"So it's two bad things,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":489.138,"endTime":492.508,"body":"Sure, you mentioned,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":489.138,"endTime":492.508,"body":"that your grid balancing engines"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":492.508,"endTime":494.871,"body":"can help avoid curtailment."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":495.631,"endTime":499.571,"body":"Can they avoid other things like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":495.631,"endTime":499.571,"body":"know, price hikes or emissions spikes,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":499.571,"endTime":502.811,"body":"or can you give us a real world example"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":499.571,"endTime":502.811,"body":"where they have overcome these issues?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":504.136,"endTime":507.366,"body":"So we have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":504.136,"endTime":507.366,"body":"markets where we see that our grid"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":507.416,"endTime":512.126,"body":"balancing engines are turning on"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":507.416,"endTime":512.126,"body":"and off a thousand times a year."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":512.576,"endTime":514.306,"body":"So it means many times per day."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":515.406,"endTime":519.826,"body":"So it means that you can really use"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":515.406,"endTime":519.826,"body":"them when you have peaks in the system"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":520.146,"endTime":525.816,"body":"that you need to cover or when the sun"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":520.146,"endTime":525.816,"body":"sets in the evening and you need to cope"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":525.816,"endTime":529.866,"body":"with the demand, which is usually quite"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":525.816,"endTime":529.866,"body":"high when people come home from work."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":530.136,"endTime":534.176,"body":"These are 2 examples of when we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":530.136,"endTime":534.176,"body":"see that our grid balancing engines"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":534.246,"endTime":536.266,"body":"can go in and help the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":536.686,"endTime":541.466,"body":"Then another example is that here in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":536.686,"endTime":541.466,"body":"the Nordics, for example, we have a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":541.466,"endTime":546.816,"body":"lot of wind, not so much solar and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":541.466,"endTime":546.816,"body":"usually in the winter time you have a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":546.816,"endTime":552.346,"body":"week or two with high pressure where"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":546.816,"endTime":552.346,"body":"you have very cold weather minus 10"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":552.356,"endTime":555.406,"body":"or 20 degrees Celsius and no wind."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":556.076,"endTime":560.806,"body":"You have these weeks every winter one or"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":556.076,"endTime":560.806,"body":"two weeks where you have these extreme"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":560.806,"endTime":564.956,"body":"conditions with very cold weather, where"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":560.806,"endTime":564.956,"body":"there is a lot of need of power and at"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":564.956,"endTime":566.766,"body":"the same time you have no wind at all."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":567.086,"endTime":571.526,"body":"And then it's an excellent opportunity"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":567.086,"endTime":571.526,"body":"for our grid balancing engines to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":571.526,"endTime":573.496,"body":"fill that need, during that time."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":575.036,"endTime":575.316,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":575.796,"endTime":576.156,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":577.366,"endTime":581.086,"body":"For, I mean, if you're using batteries,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":577.366,"endTime":581.086,"body":"as you mentioned, they're typically kind"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":581.086,"endTime":583.806,"body":"of seconds, minutes, hours sometimes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":584.196,"endTime":587.376,"body":"And these grid balancing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":584.196,"endTime":587.376,"body":"engines can go longer."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":587.376,"endTime":591.596,"body":"But what about the emissions associated"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":587.376,"endTime":591.596,"body":"with the grid balancing engines?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":591.596,"endTime":596.516,"body":"Because the batteries obviously don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":591.596,"endTime":596.516,"body":"have emissions associated with them"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":596.576,"endTime":597.776,"body":"when they're discharging energy."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":597.786,"endTime":603.166,"body":"But I can imagine the grid balancing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":597.786,"endTime":603.166,"body":"engines may do if they're using a fuel."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":603.881,"endTime":604.921,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":605.511,"endTime":611.784,"body":"So today we see very much natural gas"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":605.511,"endTime":611.784,"body":"as a good  fuel for the transition."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":611.904,"endTime":613.264,"body":"So it's a transitional fuel."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":613.774,"endTime":621.514,"body":"In the future when the hydrogen and other"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":613.774,"endTime":621.514,"body":"zero carbon or carbon neutral fuels are"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":621.514,"endTime":626.974,"body":"available, then we see that the engines"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":621.514,"endTime":626.974,"body":"can change over to these new fuels."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":626.984,"endTime":631.204,"body":"So it would not be an issue when"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":626.984,"endTime":631.204,"body":"those fuels will become available."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":631.514,"endTime":635.874,"body":"But of course, today it is very"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":631.514,"endTime":635.874,"body":"much natural gas that is the option."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":636.214,"endTime":643.004,"body":"However, I would like to point out that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":636.214,"endTime":643.004,"body":"by enabling more renewables in the system,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":643.664,"endTime":650.089,"body":"from the total system point of view,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":643.664,"endTime":650.089,"body":"it is still reducing the CO2 emissions."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":650.379,"endTime":656.409,"body":"So by having a small amount of grid"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":650.379,"endTime":656.409,"body":"balancing engines, you can enable more"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":656.859,"endTime":662.773,"body":"renewables into the system, and therefore"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":656.859,"endTime":662.773,"body":"the total CO2 emissions will go down."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":663.233,"endTime":667.613,"body":"So I say to people that are not into"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":663.233,"endTime":667.613,"body":"power system analysis, if you make a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":667.653,"endTime":673.373,"body":"comparison, when you bake bread, you add"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":667.653,"endTime":673.373,"body":"a little bit of yeast to get a good loaf"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":673.373,"endTime":678.533,"body":"of bread and you can see the yeast being"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":673.373,"endTime":678.533,"body":"the same as our grid balancing engines,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":678.903,"endTime":681.393,"body":"a little bit what makes a good bread."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":682.868,"endTime":683.278,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":683.798,"endTime":687.328,"body":"And talk to me a little bit"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":683.798,"endTime":687.328,"body":"about hydrogen because there's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":687.328,"endTime":690.658,"body":"a lot of talk about hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":691.098,"endTime":694.788,"body":"It is today."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":694.878,"endTime":701.698,"body":"I think the numbers are north of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":694.878,"endTime":701.698,"body":"95% hydrogen is not green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":701.708,"endTime":708.349,"body":"So it's created by steam fracturing"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":701.708,"endTime":708.349,"body":"methane, and that, of course,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":708.359,"endTime":710.049,"body":"has emissions associated with it."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":710.069,"endTime":716.579,"body":"And I think if I remember correctly,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":710.069,"endTime":716.579,"body":"depending on where hydrogen is created,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":716.649,"endTime":721.119,"body":"the emissions associated with the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":716.649,"endTime":721.119,"body":"generation of hydrogen are between 10"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":721.129,"endTime":724.919,"body":"and 20 kilos of CO2 per kilo of hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":725.299,"endTime":729.849,"body":"So, there isn't really yet a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":725.299,"endTime":729.849,"body":"significant amount of green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":730.099,"endTime":731.769,"body":"Is that something that's going to change?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":732.866,"endTime":736.921,"body":"First of all, I don't"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":732.866,"endTime":736.921,"body":"see hydrogen that is not green as a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":736.941,"endTime":739.661,"body":"potential fuel for grid balancing engines."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":740.046,"endTime":742.576,"body":"You should only do that when"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":740.046,"endTime":742.576,"body":"you have green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":742.886,"endTime":747.936,"body":"Otherwise, use the transitional fuel"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":742.886,"endTime":747.936,"body":"natural gas in the meantime, so to say."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":748.356,"endTime":752.116,"body":"We do see that green hydrogen will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":748.356,"endTime":752.116,"body":"become available in the future."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":752.536,"endTime":754.806,"body":"But I think we're not"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":752.536,"endTime":754.806,"body":"talking in the next years."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":754.846,"endTime":757.696,"body":"I think it will take up until 2030, 35."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":758.916,"endTime":763.876,"body":"Maybe even 40 until you have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":758.916,"endTime":763.876,"body":"abundant supply of green hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":764.326,"endTime":768.736,"body":"And I also think that there are many"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":764.326,"endTime":768.736,"body":"different sectors that will compete for"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":768.736,"endTime":770.656,"body":"the green hydrogen in the beginning."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":770.976,"endTime":774.636,"body":"So you have like making green steel"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":770.976,"endTime":774.636,"body":"and others where you need also the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":774.636,"endTime":778.836,"body":"molecule from fertilisers and other"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":774.636,"endTime":778.836,"body":"things where you need the molecule."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":778.856,"endTime":782.636,"body":"And I think that probably"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":778.856,"endTime":782.636,"body":"will be prioritised."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":782.656,"endTime":787.726,"body":"So I think it will take time before we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":782.656,"endTime":787.726,"body":"have abundant supply of green hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":787.866,"endTime":790.666,"body":"for, for using as a fuel to engines."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":791.371,"endTime":793.341,"body":"Yeah, I tend to agree."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":793.681,"endTime":796.531,"body":"What I think is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":793.681,"endTime":796.531,"body":"important though, is that from us"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":796.571,"endTime":802.171,"body":"as a supplier, we want to have the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":796.571,"endTime":802.171,"body":"technology ready so the customers can"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":802.521,"endTime":807.881,"body":"trust that they can actually invest"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":802.521,"endTime":807.881,"body":"today in something that we can convert"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":808.201,"endTime":810.201,"body":"to run on green hydrogen in the future."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":810.501,"endTime":815.701,"body":"And therefore we as the world first"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":810.501,"endTime":815.701,"body":"launched a hundred percent hydrogen"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":815.801,"endTime":819.191,"body":"ready engine power plant this year."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":819.701,"endTime":825.361,"body":"So we proved that we have the technology"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":819.701,"endTime":825.361,"body":"and we have the engines that can run"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":825.391,"endTime":828.571,"body":"on 100% green hydrogen in the future."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":828.801,"endTime":833.721,"body":"And thereby we can convert the engines"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":828.801,"endTime":833.721,"body":"that today run on natural gas to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":833.721,"endTime":835.841,"body":"hydrogen when that becomes available."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":836.081,"endTime":840.741,"body":"So the customer don't need to take the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":836.081,"endTime":840.741,"body":"risk, so to say, to sit with stranded"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":840.761,"endTime":842.281,"body":"assets that I think is important."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":843.103,"endTime":846.293,"body":"There's also a lot of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":843.103,"endTime":846.293,"body":"skepticism around the scalability"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":846.303,"endTime":850.263,"body":"and the cost effectiveness of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":846.303,"endTime":850.263,"body":"hydrogen and its efficiency as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":850.703,"endTime":854.183,"body":"From your perspective, what will it"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":850.703,"endTime":854.183,"body":"take to make hydrogen mainstream?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":855.598,"endTime":858.808,"body":"Yeah, I think"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":855.598,"endTime":858.808,"body":"it will take a lot of renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":858.828,"endTime":861.618,"body":"So we have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":858.828,"endTime":861.618,"body":"overcapacity on renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":861.938,"endTime":869.578,"body":"So basically the electricity kilowatt"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":861.938,"endTime":869.578,"body":"hours are very low and thereby you can"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":869.578,"endTime":874.121,"body":"afford to make the hydrogen because we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":869.578,"endTime":874.121,"body":"have losses when you produce the hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":874.391,"endTime":878.386,"body":"And then you of course have losses"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":874.391,"endTime":878.386,"body":"when you turn back the hydrogen into"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":878.386,"endTime":880.356,"body":"electricity again in the engine."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":880.356,"endTime":884.666,"body":"So it's clear as long as you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":880.356,"endTime":884.666,"body":"can use electricity firsthand,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":884.666,"endTime":885.816,"body":"you should always do that."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":886.196,"endTime":890.766,"body":"And I only see hydrogen for"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":886.196,"endTime":890.766,"body":"balancing applications where you run"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":891.016,"endTime":893.156,"body":"relatively few hours in the future."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":893.486,"endTime":897.686,"body":"So as base load, I don't think we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":893.486,"endTime":897.686,"body":"will see hydrogen because it will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":898.066,"endTime":901.666,"body":"be too expensive considering the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":898.066,"endTime":901.666,"body":"losses you have in the conversions."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":902.541,"endTime":909.534,"body":"Sure, and in that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":902.541,"endTime":909.534,"body":"scenario, is hydrogen a sort"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":936.984,"endTime":940.474,"body":"of solution for the curtailment"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":936.984,"endTime":940.474,"body":"issue that we spoke of earlier?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":941.614,"endTime":944.974,"body":"I think that again,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":941.614,"endTime":944.974,"body":"coming back to short term, long term, I"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":944.984,"endTime":949.344,"body":"think in the short term it's not an answer"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":944.984,"endTime":949.344,"body":"to the curtailment issue because it's not"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":949.4540000000001,"endTime":951.734,"body":"available and not to the right cost level."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":952.124,"endTime":956.764,"body":"So I think today we will see natural"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":952.124,"endTime":956.764,"body":"gas as the good fuel for the balancing."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":957.144,"endTime":963.3040000000001,"body":"And in the long term, I see that,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":957.144,"endTime":963.3040000000001,"body":"yes, to come to 100% renewable system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":963.594,"endTime":967.854,"body":"Also, the balancing power has"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":963.594,"endTime":967.854,"body":"to be done on sustainable fuels."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":968.0740000000001,"endTime":972.9140000000001,"body":"And then I do see that hydrogen will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":968.0740000000001,"endTime":972.9140000000001,"body":"be available in the long term future."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":973.144,"endTime":976.094,"body":"But we're talking 2035 timeframe."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":976.094,"endTime":977.6640000000001,"body":"So it's 10 years from now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":978.274,"endTime":980.104,"body":"Sure, no what I was"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":978.274,"endTime":980.104,"body":"referring to there was, I was saying"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":980.104,"endTime":986.0690000000001,"body":"rather than curtailing the renewables,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":980.104,"endTime":986.0690000000001,"body":"when there's an excess of supply over"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":986.0690000000001,"endTime":992.5160000000001,"body":"demand, divert the energy from the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":986.0690000000001,"endTime":992.5160000000001,"body":"renewables instead of turning them off,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":992.686,"endTime":994.3660000000001,"body":"divert it into generating hydrogen."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":995.041,"endTime":998.2710000000001,"body":"Yes, and that's"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":995.041,"endTime":998.2710000000001,"body":"when you will have what I also try"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":998.2710000000001,"endTime":1004.0010000000001,"body":"to refer to as very low cost on the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":998.2710000000001,"endTime":1004.0010000000001,"body":"energy because when they are curtailed,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1004.2710000000001,"endTime":1008.206,"body":"they're curtailed because there is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1004.2710000000001,"endTime":1008.206,"body":"enough electricity in the system."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1009.976,"endTime":1013.966,"body":"You mentioned earlier that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1009.976,"endTime":1013.966,"body":"Wärtsilä has analyzed the power systems"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1013.966,"endTime":1020.801,"body":"in over 190 or 200 countries, I think, and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1013.966,"endTime":1020.801,"body":"regions are there, any common universal"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1020.851,"endTime":1025.3509999999999,"body":"truths about the transition to a hundred"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1020.851,"endTime":1025.3509999999999,"body":"percent renewable energy, or does each"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1025.441,"endTime":1027.021,"body":"country's pathway look very different?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1028.198,"endTime":1030.448,"body":"No when we have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1028.198,"endTime":1030.448,"body":"done this analysis, we can actually"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1030.588,"endTime":1035.618,"body":"see that all countries and all"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1030.588,"endTime":1035.618,"body":"markets are following same steps."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1035.788,"endTime":1037.818,"body":"And I will describe those steps."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1038.158,"endTime":1042.388,"body":"Of course, saying at the same time,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1038.158,"endTime":1042.388,"body":"all countries starts from a different"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1042.388,"endTime":1047.218,"body":"point and the time to go through these"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1042.388,"endTime":1047.218,"body":"deep steps will therefore be different"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1047.218,"endTime":1050.928,"body":"in different countries and markets,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1047.218,"endTime":1050.928,"body":"but they all go through the same steps."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1051.578,"endTime":1053.058,"body":"And let me take those steps."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1053.058,"endTime":1058.3780000000002,"body":"So the first step is always"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1053.058,"endTime":1058.3780000000002,"body":"to start adding solar PV and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1058.3780000000002,"endTime":1060.478,"body":"wind meaning adding renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1060.728,"endTime":1062.068,"body":"That's always the first step."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1062.598,"endTime":1066.048,"body":"But when you have done that and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1062.598,"endTime":1066.048,"body":"you come up to a certain level, you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1066.048,"endTime":1070.308,"body":"will see that you have the need of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1066.048,"endTime":1070.308,"body":"balancing and flexibility in the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1070.308,"endTime":1073.488,"body":"system in order to avoid what we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1070.308,"endTime":1073.488,"body":"discussed with the curtailments."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1074.258,"endTime":1079.2930000000001,"body":"And then it's important to add"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1074.258,"endTime":1079.2930000000001,"body":"battery storage, but also flexible"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1079.953,"endTime":1082.3890000000001,"body":"engines to balance the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1082.769,"endTime":1084.209,"body":"So that's the step number two."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1084.529,"endTime":1088.8490000000002,"body":"And this is where most countries"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1084.529,"endTime":1088.8490000000002,"body":"are that have come furthest today."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1089.3590000000002,"endTime":1093.8690000000001,"body":"And then the step number three, when you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1089.3590000000002,"endTime":1093.8690000000001,"body":"have done that, so you have added more"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1093.8790000000001,"endTime":1099.214,"body":"renewables, you have the balancing, then"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1093.8790000000001,"endTime":1099.214,"body":"you can go to step number three, which is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1099.2540000000001,"endTime":1105.0810000000001,"body":"actually to start shutting down inflexible"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1099.2540000000001,"endTime":1105.0810000000001,"body":"coal power plants and high fossil fuel"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1105.0810000000001,"endTime":1106.761,"body":"plants, oil plants, and other things."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1107.441,"endTime":1112.451,"body":"So that's step number three to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1107.441,"endTime":1112.451,"body":"stop the inflexible power plants."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1112.971,"endTime":1119.5910000000001,"body":"And then you have a system which is living"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1112.971,"endTime":1119.5910000000001,"body":"to a high degree on renewables already."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1120.1480000000001,"endTime":1126.358,"body":"But then the step number four is then"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1120.1480000000001,"endTime":1126.358,"body":"to convert to sustainable fuels also for"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1126.358,"endTime":1128.7640000000001,"body":"the balancing grid engines in the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1129.144,"endTime":1132.374,"body":"So you start converting"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1129.144,"endTime":1132.374,"body":"those to sustainable fuels."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1132.7440000000001,"endTime":1136.674,"body":"And when you have done that, then you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1132.7440000000001,"endTime":1136.674,"body":"have a hundred percent sustainable"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1136.9940000000001,"endTime":1140.6390000000001,"body":"system because then you have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1136.9940000000001,"endTime":1140.6390000000001,"body":"everything  without fossil fuels."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1141.726,"endTime":1146.796,"body":"And are there any model"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1141.726,"endTime":1146.796,"body":"countries or regions that have followed"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1146.846,"endTime":1148.156,"body":"those five steps to their completion."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1149.616,"endTime":1150.9460000000001,"body":"No,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1149.616,"endTime":1150.9460000000001,"body":"not to the completion."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1150.989,"endTime":1154.709,"body":"You're normally on step number two"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1150.989,"endTime":1154.709,"body":"and three in countries that have,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1155.189,"endTime":1159.309,"body":"or between number two and three in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1155.189,"endTime":1159.309,"body":"countries that have come furthest."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1159.309,"endTime":1163.819,"body":"And to give you some examples on markets"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1159.309,"endTime":1163.819,"body":"that have come very far, so you can go to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1163.819,"endTime":1166.539,"body":"Australia and look at Southern Australia."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1166.814,"endTime":1170.044,"body":"So not the whole of Australia,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1166.814,"endTime":1170.044,"body":"but southern Australia, they come"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1170.044,"endTime":1174.154,"body":"very far in adding renewables and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1170.044,"endTime":1174.154,"body":"also flexibility into the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1174.664,"endTime":1180.824,"body":"Another one maybe surprisingly knowing"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1174.664,"endTime":1180.824,"body":"that Texas in the US is a state of fossil"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1181.034,"endTime":1185.574,"body":"fuels or they produce a lot of fossil"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1181.034,"endTime":1185.574,"body":"fuels, but they have actually a very high"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1186.084,"endTime":1188.7740000000001,"body":"degree of renewables in their system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1189.2440000000001,"endTime":1194.939,"body":"And this is, again, maybe not because"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1189.2440000000001,"endTime":1194.939,"body":"of sustainability issues that they"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1194.939,"endTime":1197.769,"body":"have that high degree of renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1198.019,"endTime":1200.809,"body":"It's actually more that it is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1198.019,"endTime":1200.809,"body":"the cheapest form of energy."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1201.239,"endTime":1205.209,"body":"So they have a lot of solar and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1201.239,"endTime":1205.209,"body":"also a lot of wind in their system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1205.6490000000001,"endTime":1209.949,"body":"So they have also added a lot"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1205.6490000000001,"endTime":1209.949,"body":"of balancing engines and also a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1209.949,"endTime":1211.759,"body":"lot of batteries to the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1212.079,"endTime":1214.809,"body":"So they have come quite far"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1212.079,"endTime":1214.809,"body":"and I will say that they are"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1214.809,"endTime":1217.719,"body":"on step number three already."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1218.169,"endTime":1221.939,"body":"Another country is, of course, UK"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1218.169,"endTime":1221.939,"body":"here in Europe, which also have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1221.939,"endTime":1225.769,"body":"added a lot of renewables, and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1221.939,"endTime":1225.769,"body":"they are somewhere between, I will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1225.769,"endTime":1227.529,"body":"say, step number two and three."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1228.169,"endTime":1233.699,"body":"And then you can take Chile in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1228.169,"endTime":1233.699,"body":"South America that have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1233.699,"endTime":1238.689,"body":"solar in the north part of Chile"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1233.699,"endTime":1238.689,"body":"and a lot of wind in the south part."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1239.184,"endTime":1241.954,"body":"And now the challenge"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1239.184,"endTime":1241.954,"body":"is to do the balancing."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1241.954,"endTime":1246.384,"body":"So I would say that they are on, they"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1241.954,"endTime":1246.384,"body":"have started on step number two adding"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1246.384,"endTime":1250.544,"body":"a lot of storage, but they also need"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1246.384,"endTime":1250.544,"body":"the flexibility on the engine side"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1251.054,"endTime":1253.464,"body":"in order to complete step number two."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1253.614,"endTime":1258.334,"body":"I was actually last week in Chile and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1253.614,"endTime":1258.334,"body":"Brazil and talked with the customers"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1258.334,"endTime":1260.5040000000001,"body":"and also planning departments there."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1260.794,"endTime":1265.084,"body":"So it's quite interesting to follow"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1260.794,"endTime":1265.084,"body":"these countries that have come far"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1265.414,"endTime":1269.054,"body":"but also see some of these challenges"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1265.414,"endTime":1269.054,"body":"with the balancing of the system."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1270.3590000000002,"endTime":1274.819,"body":"Okay, and what about"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1270.3590000000002,"endTime":1274.819,"body":"the likes of interconnects as well"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1274.839,"endTime":1276.8790000000001,"body":"with other countries or regions?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1276.8790000000001,"endTime":1282.429,"body":"Because quite famously last year,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1276.8790000000001,"endTime":1282.429,"body":"I think it was Texas had a massive"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1282.519,"endTime":1288.1090000000002,"body":"outage, which was caused in part"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1282.519,"endTime":1288.1090000000002,"body":"by lack of weatherisation and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1288.3790000000001,"endTime":1290.789,"body":"a failure of some power plants."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1291.239,"endTime":1295.624,"body":"And the Texas energy system is an island."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1295.634,"endTime":1298.584,"body":"It's not interconnected with"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1295.634,"endTime":1298.584,"body":"its neighboring regions at all."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1299.454,"endTime":1304.334,"body":"No, you have the ERCOT"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1299.454,"endTime":1304.334,"body":"system which is a large part Texas no."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1304.434,"endTime":1308.434,"body":"So interconnects of course, we can"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1304.434,"endTime":1308.434,"body":"see that also in Europe between"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1308.434,"endTime":1312.863,"body":"different countries, of course,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1308.434,"endTime":1312.863,"body":"helps with balancing the systems."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1313.223,"endTime":1316.0330000000001,"body":"So having interconnects between"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1313.223,"endTime":1316.0330000000001,"body":"countries or between states in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1316.0330000000001,"endTime":1320.2930000000001,"body":"the US would, of course, help"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1316.0330000000001,"endTime":1320.2930000000001,"body":"with balancing the system as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1321.698,"endTime":1322.088,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1322.088,"endTime":1322.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1322.558,"endTime":1326.808,"body":"I always say to people who say the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1322.558,"endTime":1326.808,"body":"sun isn't always shining and the wind"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1326.808,"endTime":1329.238,"body":"isn't always blowing, that's not true."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1329.238,"endTime":1332.988,"body":"The sun is always shining and the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1329.238,"endTime":1332.988,"body":"wind is always blowing somewhere."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1333.318,"endTime":1337.111,"body":"So if you do have enough interconnects"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1333.318,"endTime":1337.111,"body":"and a massive supergrid, then"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1337.111,"endTime":1339.0510000000002,"body":"there's no problem getting to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1337.111,"endTime":1339.0510000000002,"body":"a hundred percent renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1339.7060000000001,"endTime":1339.976,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1341.241,"endTime":1342.241,"body":"That's a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1341.241,"endTime":1342.241,"body":"topic for another day."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1342.9560000000001,"endTime":1348.006,"body":"No, that's very true that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1342.9560000000001,"endTime":1348.006,"body":"all the interconnects will help balancing"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1348.056,"endTime":1353.976,"body":"the systems as well, especially, of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1348.056,"endTime":1353.976,"body":"course, with the sun, you need east west."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1354.406,"endTime":1358.556,"body":"I was in, as mentioned in Chile,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1354.406,"endTime":1358.556,"body":"the challenge with Chile is that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1358.556,"endTime":1362.316,"body":"they are a very, very narrow"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1358.556,"endTime":1362.316,"body":"country, but very long country."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1362.586,"endTime":1366.1860000000001,"body":"So, of course, the sun sets everywhere,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1362.586,"endTime":1366.1860000000001,"body":"more or less at the same time."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1367.406,"endTime":1371.4560000000001,"body":"While if you, of course, look at the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1367.406,"endTime":1371.4560000000001,"body":"US or Australia, if you take east"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1371.4560000000001,"endTime":1376.746,"body":"coast to west coast, you would have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1371.4560000000001,"endTime":1376.746,"body":"a good opportunity to actually help"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1376.806,"endTime":1383.073,"body":"balancing the system because you have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1376.806,"endTime":1383.073,"body":"a very wide east west continents."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1383.669,"endTime":1387.409,"body":"And what about the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1383.669,"endTime":1387.409,"body":"likes of the regulatory environments?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1387.439,"endTime":1390.8690000000001,"body":"I mean, they're different"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1387.439,"endTime":1390.8690000000001,"body":"regions with different regulatory"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1390.8690000000001,"endTime":1391.979,"body":"environments obviously."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1392.939,"endTime":1397.449,"body":"Do you have any examples of where policy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1392.939,"endTime":1397.449,"body":"has been particularly effective in"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1397.449,"endTime":1402.289,"body":"supporting renewables or the opposite,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1397.449,"endTime":1402.289,"body":"areas where it's been holding them back?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1404.569,"endTime":1408.169,"body":"Yes, I think that there"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1404.569,"endTime":1408.169,"body":"are a number of different things you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1408.209,"endTime":1412.769,"body":"can help with enabling the renewables"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1408.209,"endTime":1412.769,"body":"and the flexibility into the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1413.259,"endTime":1416.949,"body":"And if you take Texas as an example,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1413.259,"endTime":1416.949,"body":"which we talked about earlier."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1417.6290000000001,"endTime":1423.726,"body":"They have a very nodal pricing, and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1417.6290000000001,"endTime":1423.726,"body":"they also let the price vary a lot."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1424.056,"endTime":1429.026,"body":"And, of course, this is giving incentives"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1424.056,"endTime":1429.026,"body":"to those that can supply power when it's"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1429.026,"endTime":1431.296,"body":"mostly needed and doing the balancing."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1431.8990000000001,"endTime":1437.729,"body":"Also, they have the Texas Energy"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1431.8990000000001,"endTime":1437.729,"body":"Fund that is giving loans to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1438.1090000000002,"endTime":1443.219,"body":"companies that want to invest in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1438.1090000000002,"endTime":1443.219,"body":"balancing capacity in the market."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1443.539,"endTime":1446.1290000000001,"body":"So this is the way that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1443.539,"endTime":1446.1290000000001,"body":"it has been done in Texas."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1446.529,"endTime":1450.739,"body":"In other markets, you have like"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1446.529,"endTime":1450.739,"body":"capacity markets or where you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1450.739,"endTime":1454.6090000000002,"body":"pay for having capacity when"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1450.739,"endTime":1454.6090000000002,"body":"the renewables are not there."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1454.709,"endTime":1458.584,"body":"So that also helps and you"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1454.709,"endTime":1458.584,"body":"also have ancillary services"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1458.794,"endTime":1460.284,"body":"in, in some markets as well."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1460.304,"endTime":1464.054,"body":"So there are different mechanisms,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1460.304,"endTime":1464.054,"body":"but I think you touch a very important"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1464.054,"endTime":1469.481,"body":"point that of course our traditional"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1464.054,"endTime":1469.481,"body":"markets have been built for running"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1469.991,"endTime":1473.5410000000002,"body":"as many hours as possible and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1469.991,"endTime":1473.5410000000002,"body":"producing as much power as possible."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1474.0510000000002,"endTime":1477.121,"body":"And if you then want to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1474.0510000000002,"endTime":1477.121,"body":"incentivise rebalancing engines."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1477.616,"endTime":1480.646,"body":"Then, of course, you don't"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1477.616,"endTime":1480.646,"body":"want them to produce."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1480.9460000000001,"endTime":1485.386,"body":"You actually want them to enable the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1480.9460000000001,"endTime":1485.386,"body":"renewables to run as much as possible."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1485.641,"endTime":1490.986,"body":"So you might only have like 300"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1485.641,"endTime":1490.986,"body":"or 400, 500 hours in a year."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1491.286,"endTime":1496.036,"body":"And then you, of course, need to create"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1491.286,"endTime":1496.036,"body":"the revenue in another way than producing"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1496.226,"endTime":1498.326,"body":"as many running hours as possible."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1499.509,"endTime":1505.0240000000001,"body":"And what about the need"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1499.509,"endTime":1505.0240000000001,"body":"for cooperation and collaboration?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1505.0240000000001,"endTime":1510.544,"body":"I mean, businesses, states, communities,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1505.0240000000001,"endTime":1510.544,"body":"do you have examples of where"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1510.574,"endTime":1514.921,"body":"collaboration has been transformative"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1510.574,"endTime":1514.921,"body":"and models for others to follow?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1516.1960000000001,"endTime":1520.086,"body":"I think one such"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1516.1960000000001,"endTime":1520.086,"body":"example is, of course, what I mentioned"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1520.086,"endTime":1527.516,"body":"in Texas where the regulatory part had"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1520.086,"endTime":1527.516,"body":"good discussions with the generators"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1527.9360000000001,"endTime":1533.296,"body":"and understood what is needed by"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1527.9360000000001,"endTime":1533.296,"body":"the system and then come up with"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1533.296,"endTime":1535.566,"body":"this idea of the Texas Energy Fund."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1536.056,"endTime":1539.942,"body":"And I think we can see that also"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1536.056,"endTime":1539.942,"body":"in other parts of the world."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1540.332,"endTime":1545.286,"body":"I think that one challenge is obviously"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1540.332,"endTime":1545.286,"body":"that for the entity that runs the system"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1545.316,"endTime":1550.6660000000002,"body":"and always should make sure that the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1545.316,"endTime":1550.6660000000002,"body":"system is always balanced, I think that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1550.6760000000002,"endTime":1556.266,"body":"the people there, they see this need quite"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1550.6760000000002,"endTime":1556.266,"body":"clearly of how to balance the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1556.7160000000001,"endTime":1560.906,"body":"But then in many countries, it"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1556.7160000000001,"endTime":1560.906,"body":"takes time before politicians can"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1560.906,"endTime":1566.711,"body":"change the regulatory part of the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1560.906,"endTime":1566.711,"body":"system to incentivise both storage"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1566.921,"endTime":1570.921,"body":"and balancing engines in the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1566.921,"endTime":1570.921,"body":"system to create that flexibility."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1571.161,"endTime":1573.471,"body":"It can take a lot of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1571.161,"endTime":1573.471,"body":"time depending on system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1573.471,"endTime":1578.271,"body":"So it's important that discussion"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1573.471,"endTime":1578.271,"body":"starts and that people can"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1578.271,"endTime":1579.8110000000001,"body":"change the regulatory system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1580.151,"endTime":1585.121,"body":"Listen to the parties that control"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1580.151,"endTime":1585.121,"body":"and operate the overall system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1585.501,"endTime":1587.861,"body":"And have a good understanding"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1585.501,"endTime":1587.861,"body":"for what is needed."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1589.181,"endTime":1591.4360000000001,"body":"Yeah, and there's, a"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1589.181,"endTime":1591.4360000000001,"body":"lot of renewable projects, which"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1591.4360000000001,"endTime":1593.4460000000001,"body":"are held up in permitting as well."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1593.4560000000001,"endTime":1596.786,"body":"So obviously we need to make changes"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1593.4560000000001,"endTime":1596.786,"body":"to the permitting systems globally."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1598.1660000000002,"endTime":1601.156,"body":"That's that I think"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1598.1660000000002,"endTime":1601.156,"body":"is very much on the renewable side."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1601.1960000000001,"endTime":1605.6860000000001,"body":"So building out offshore wind"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1601.1960000000001,"endTime":1605.6860000000001,"body":"where I used to work before,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1606.15,"endTime":1608.51,"body":"but also onshore wind and solar."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1608.89,"endTime":1613.713,"body":"It's both to get the grid connection,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1608.89,"endTime":1613.713,"body":"but it's also to get the permits"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1614.113,"endTime":1618.363,"body":"of building also the environmental"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1614.113,"endTime":1618.363,"body":"permits can take a lot of time."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1618.943,"endTime":1622.938,"body":"Many countries we also see that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1618.943,"endTime":1622.938,"body":"there is a local opposition, even"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1622.938,"endTime":1627.6580000000001,"body":"if there is of course full support"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1622.938,"endTime":1627.6580000000001,"body":"for building out the renewables on"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1628.018,"endTime":1632.438,"body":"country level or state level, we can"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1628.018,"endTime":1632.438,"body":"see that locally there is opposition."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1632.778,"endTime":1637.078,"body":"So, yes, all of these things need"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1632.778,"endTime":1637.078,"body":"to be addressed and made more"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1637.298,"endTime":1641.1480000000001,"body":"efficient in order to speed up"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1637.298,"endTime":1641.1480000000001,"body":"the build out of the renewables."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1642.443,"endTime":1645.413,"body":"And one thing we haven't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1642.443,"endTime":1645.413,"body":"mentioned is the likes of demand"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1645.413,"endTime":1647.133,"body":"side management for balancing."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1647.813,"endTime":1649.5130000000001,"body":"Is that something that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1647.813,"endTime":1649.5130000000001,"body":"you're looking into as well?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1651.323,"endTime":1654.2930000000001,"body":"I think we are more"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1651.323,"endTime":1654.2930000000001,"body":"focusing on the generation part."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1654.403,"endTime":1659.163,"body":"but I definitely think that the demand"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1654.403,"endTime":1659.163,"body":"balancing is also something that we will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1659.173,"endTime":1663.893,"body":"see more of in the future because there"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1659.173,"endTime":1663.893,"body":"are certain loads where you can balance."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1664.248,"endTime":1667.508,"body":"There are many loads that cannot"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1664.248,"endTime":1667.508,"body":"balance as well because they are"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1667.678,"endTime":1673.768,"body":"critical industrial processes where"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1667.678,"endTime":1673.768,"body":"you run 24 7 and you cannot interrupt."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1673.808,"endTime":1678.798,"body":"But there are also other things where"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1673.808,"endTime":1678.798,"body":"you can interrupt temporarily, like"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1678.808,"endTime":1682.988,"body":"district heating and other things where"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1678.808,"endTime":1682.988,"body":"I think you can temporarily shut down."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1683.038,"endTime":1684.858,"body":"I think we will see more"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1683.038,"endTime":1684.858,"body":"of that in the future."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1685.208,"endTime":1689.3980000000001,"body":"I also think with the increase of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1685.208,"endTime":1689.3980000000001,"body":"EVs we also have the opportunity"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1689.698,"endTime":1693.6380000000001,"body":"to vehicle to grid and other"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1689.698,"endTime":1693.6380000000001,"body":"things which will also help."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1693.6380000000001,"endTime":1696.728,"body":"So, I think there are many things"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1693.6380000000001,"endTime":1696.728,"body":"and we need to look at all of these"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1696.738,"endTime":1703.0030000000002,"body":"things for the having the fastest"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1696.738,"endTime":1703.0030000000002,"body":"way to zero system so to say, so"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1703.373,"endTime":1704.873,"body":"all contributions are welcome."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1704.903,"endTime":1709.7730000000001,"body":"Also energy efficiency contributions"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1704.903,"endTime":1709.7730000000001,"body":"are, of course, also very important."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1710.063,"endTime":1714.953,"body":"So you limit the increase in demand"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1710.063,"endTime":1714.953,"body":"because we know that the economy will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1714.983,"endTime":1720.143,"body":"continue to grow and normally continued"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1714.983,"endTime":1720.143,"body":"growth in economy has always led to more"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1720.143,"endTime":1725.313,"body":"need of energy, especially in countries"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1720.143,"endTime":1725.313,"body":"that are less developed, which now will."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1725.813,"endTime":1730.363,"body":"Be developed in industrial they will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1725.813,"endTime":1730.363,"body":"need much more energy and there we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1730.363,"endTime":1734.7830000000001,"body":"need to make sure that we in the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1730.363,"endTime":1734.7830000000001,"body":"whole global economy, make sure that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1734.7830000000001,"endTime":1740.91,"body":"we make our systems more efficient in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1734.7830000000001,"endTime":1740.91,"body":"order to limit the increase in demand."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1742.585,"endTime":1743.255,"body":"Right, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1744.025,"endTime":1749.9850000000001,"body":"And obviously innovation is going to play"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1744.025,"endTime":1749.9850000000001,"body":"a huge role in this as we move forward."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1750.895,"endTime":1754.525,"body":"What advice would you give to energy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1750.895,"endTime":1754.525,"body":"companies or countries that want to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1754.525,"endTime":1758.325,"body":"make sure their current investments"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1754.525,"endTime":1758.325,"body":"are adaptable for the future?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1760.405,"endTime":1763.005,"body":"I think it is very"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1760.405,"endTime":1763.005,"body":"much to look holistically at the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1763.015,"endTime":1768.655,"body":"system and understand the system's"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1763.015,"endTime":1768.655,"body":"needs because then you also know"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1768.7050000000002,"endTime":1773.948,"body":"where you need to incentivise and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1768.7050000000002,"endTime":1773.948,"body":"put the efforts in on innovation."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1773.948,"endTime":1777.958,"body":"What is it really that the system"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1773.948,"endTime":1777.958,"body":"needs the whole power system?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1778.3980000000001,"endTime":1780.018,"body":"I think that's a good start."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1780.548,"endTime":1786.673,"body":"And then the second thought I have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1780.548,"endTime":1786.673,"body":"regarding innovations is that sometimes"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1786.733,"endTime":1792.97,"body":"when I meet with politicians, I"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1786.733,"endTime":1792.97,"body":"think that we need to recognise"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1792.99,"endTime":1799.88,"body":"what technologies that are available"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1792.99,"endTime":1799.88,"body":"today and go for those technologies."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1800.1200000000001,"endTime":1804.185,"body":"It doesn't mean that we should not"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1800.1200000000001,"endTime":1804.185,"body":"invest in new technologies like small"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1804.185,"endTime":1807.67,"body":"modular reactors, if I mentioned one,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1808.31,"endTime":1808.66,"body":"Mhm."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1809.0700000000002,"endTime":1810.19,"body":"but"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1809.0700000000002,"endTime":1810.19,"body":"there are many others."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1810.5,"endTime":1816.275,"body":"I, of course, think we should continue"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1810.5,"endTime":1816.275,"body":"to invest in those from an R\u0026D point of"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1816.285,"endTime":1821.935,"body":"view, but it is not the technology that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1816.285,"endTime":1821.935,"body":"is here and that will make any impact,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1822.4850000000001,"endTime":1825.135,"body":"substantial impact in the next 10 years."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1825.385,"endTime":1830.925,"body":"So go for technologies that exist"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1825.385,"endTime":1830.925,"body":"today, like solar, like wind, like"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1830.9650000000001,"endTime":1837.175,"body":"battery storage, like pumped hydro,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1830.9650000000001,"endTime":1837.175,"body":"like hydro, like flexible engines."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1837.6380000000001,"endTime":1843.468,"body":"These things exist already today and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1837.6380000000001,"endTime":1843.468,"body":"can help us decarbonise the system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1844.018,"endTime":1846.688,"body":"What technologies will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1844.018,"endTime":1846.688,"body":"be available in 10 years?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1846.998,"endTime":1851.308,"body":"Yeah, let's worry about that in 10"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1846.998,"endTime":1851.308,"body":"years when those have been developed,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1851.508,"endTime":1856.988,"body":"And let's not get confused on what"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1851.508,"endTime":1856.988,"body":"is commercially available today"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1857.3880000000001,"endTime":1858.798,"body":"versus what will be tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1859.108,"endTime":1860.448,"body":"Hydrogen is the same thing."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1860.688,"endTime":1862.568,"body":"That's of course we have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1860.688,"endTime":1862.568,"body":"already discussed that."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1862.928,"endTime":1868.1480000000001,"body":"That's something that will have an impact"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1862.928,"endTime":1868.1480000000001,"body":"in 2035, but it will not have an impact on"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1868.1480000000001,"endTime":1871.3880000000001,"body":"how we build the system today, so to say."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1872.693,"endTime":1873.053,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1873.193,"endTime":1878.923,"body":"And for people who are listening who are"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1873.193,"endTime":1878.923,"body":"hopefully feeling inspired, but maybe"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1878.923,"endTime":1883.603,"body":"a little bit overwhelmed, what's one"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1878.923,"endTime":1883.603,"body":"action you'd recommend they advocate"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1883.653,"endTime":1889.163,"body":"for either personally or within their"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1883.653,"endTime":1889.163,"body":"community, or within their employ to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1889.213,"endTime":1890.7730000000001,"body":"support the shift towards renewables?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1892.1180000000002,"endTime":1895.6180000000002,"body":"I think that if"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1892.1180000000002,"endTime":1895.6180000000002,"body":"you look at all companies around the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1895.6180000000002,"endTime":1900.188,"body":"world and all organisations, I think"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1895.6180000000002,"endTime":1900.188,"body":"we can all contribute in our way."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1900.643,"endTime":1904.733,"body":"In Wärtsilä, we have two"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1900.643,"endTime":1904.733,"body":"major targets until 2030."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1905.153,"endTime":1911.103,"body":"One is to decarbonise our own operation,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1905.153,"endTime":1911.103,"body":"and the other one is to have products that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1911.133,"endTime":1914.323,"body":"will enable our customers to decarbonise."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1914.343,"endTime":1919.863,"body":"So in the energy field, it is to have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1914.343,"endTime":1919.863,"body":"the products, the engines, that will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1920.2430000000002,"endTime":1924.393,"body":"run on sustainable fuels and that will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1920.2430000000002,"endTime":1924.393,"body":"allow our customers to decarbonise."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1925.2430000000002,"endTime":1930.803,"body":"So I think that all companies"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1925.2430000000002,"endTime":1930.803,"body":"and people can look at how can we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1930.803,"endTime":1933.163,"body":"contribute, to the decarbonisation."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1934.8680000000002,"endTime":1935.218,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1935.218,"endTime":1941.4080000000001,"body":"And if we were to fast forward to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1935.218,"endTime":1941.4080000000001,"body":"2050, what do you hope the renewable"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1941.448,"endTime":1943.508,"body":"energy landscape will look like?"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1943.508,"endTime":1948.038,"body":"And what's kind of the one achievement"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":1943.508,"endTime":1948.038,"body":"that would make you say, we did it."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1950.1580000000001,"endTime":1953.563,"body":"I think that if we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1950.1580000000001,"endTime":1953.563,"body":"have a system that runs a net zero"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1953.603,"endTime":1956.093,"body":"system that runs on renewables."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1957.6380000000001,"endTime":1962.663,"body":"And also have zero carbon fuels"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1957.6380000000001,"endTime":1962.663,"body":"so it is fully sustainable."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1963.213,"endTime":1965.393,"body":"Then I think we have achieved it."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1965.643,"endTime":1970.7530000000002,"body":"At the same times, we should"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1965.643,"endTime":1970.7530000000002,"body":"have 100% energy security."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1971.363,"endTime":1973.103,"body":"We should have a zero carbon system."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1973.643,"endTime":1979.2430000000002,"body":"And what I think maybe we forget"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1973.643,"endTime":1979.2430000000002,"body":"sometimes to an optimal cost as well."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1979.7930000000001,"endTime":1981.213,"body":"That I think is very important."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1981.593,"endTime":1986.903,"body":"And of course, you can build a complete"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1981.593,"endTime":1986.903,"body":"renewable system with batteries only."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1987.473,"endTime":1991.863,"body":"And we have studied this and compared"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1987.473,"endTime":1991.863,"body":"if you do that compared to one"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1992.133,"endTime":1996.333,"body":"where you also add the flexibility"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1992.133,"endTime":1996.333,"body":"in form of balancing engines."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1996.5430000000001,"endTime":2001.5230000000001,"body":"And we can see that there is a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":1996.5430000000001,"endTime":2001.5230000000001,"body":"substantial difference in cost."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2002.113,"endTime":2005.453,"body":"Because you need to overbuild"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2002.113,"endTime":2005.453,"body":"a lot with the renewables and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2005.453,"endTime":2007.0130000000001,"body":"the battery, if you do that."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2007.233,"endTime":2010.933,"body":"I can take an example of Chile"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2007.233,"endTime":2010.933,"body":"which I have fresh in my mind."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2011.2730000000001,"endTime":2015.7730000000001,"body":"So if you build a complete system with"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2011.2730000000001,"endTime":2015.7730000000001,"body":"renewables and battery only, versus"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2015.7730000000001,"endTime":2020.973,"body":"one with renewables, battery and"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2015.7730000000001,"endTime":2020.973,"body":"flexible engine, there's a difference"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2020.983,"endTime":2028.0130000000001,"body":"of 17 billion dollars in investment in"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2020.983,"endTime":2028.0130000000001,"body":"only Chile between these two systems."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2028.303,"endTime":2029.613,"body":"So it's a substantial difference."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2030.198,"endTime":2035.838,"body":"On energy security and sustainability,"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2030.198,"endTime":2035.838,"body":"they will come to the same level but"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2035.838,"endTime":2037.6280000000002,"body":"it's a substantial difference in cost."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2039.8880000000001,"endTime":2044.038,"body":"Anders a left field"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2039.8880000000001,"endTime":2044.038,"body":"question for you, if you could have"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2044.058,"endTime":2052.118,"body":"any person or character alive or dead,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2044.058,"endTime":2052.118,"body":"real or fictional as a spokesperson"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2052.128,"endTime":2058.048,"body":"for a successful renewable energy"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2052.128,"endTime":2058.048,"body":"transition, who would it be and why?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2058.998,"endTime":2061.398,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2058.998,"endTime":2061.398,"body":"1 person that come to my mind"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2061.398,"endTime":2065.788,"body":"that I think is quite good as a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2061.398,"endTime":2065.788,"body":"spokesperson is Michael Leibrich."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2066.3379999999997,"endTime":2070.648,"body":"And the reason for that, what I like a"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2066.3379999999997,"endTime":2070.648,"body":"lot with his approach is that he based"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2071.188,"endTime":2076.198,"body":"everything on facts and figures and that"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2071.188,"endTime":2076.198,"body":"I think is also for me very important."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2076.668,"endTime":2081.963,"body":"And also for our company when we talk"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2076.668,"endTime":2081.963,"body":"to different stakeholders, we sometimes"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2081.963,"endTime":2087.983,"body":"find that there is lots of discussions"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2081.963,"endTime":2087.983,"body":"and believing in different things, but we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2087.983,"endTime":2093.143,"body":"have facts and figures and if you do the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2087.983,"endTime":2093.143,"body":"proper modeling of the systems like we are"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2093.143,"endTime":2098.893,"body":"doing with Plexus, which is a commercially"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2093.143,"endTime":2098.893,"body":"available software, you can show with"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2098.993,"endTime":2103.503,"body":"facts and figures how the development"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2098.993,"endTime":2103.503,"body":"are being and then you can take the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2103.503,"endTime":2105.593,"body":"decision based on facts and figures."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2105.663,"endTime":2111.338,"body":"And me being an engineer I like very much"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2105.663,"endTime":2111.338,"body":"that approach that we stop discussing"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2111.348,"endTime":2116.445,"body":"out of emotions and beliefs and instead"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2111.348,"endTime":2116.445,"body":"look at the facts and figures how"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2116.445,"endTime":2118.635,"body":"you do this in the most optimal way."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2118.935,"endTime":2123.435,"body":"So I will say, Michael Leibrich is"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2118.935,"endTime":2123.435,"body":"the first name that comes to my mind"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2123.805,"endTime":2128.985,"body":"of being a good spokesperson for the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2123.805,"endTime":2128.985,"body":"energy transition and what makes sense"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2129.045,"endTime":2130.765,"body":"and what does not make sense to do."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2131.51,"endTime":2134.4500000000003,"body":"Yeah, and for people"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2131.51,"endTime":2134.4500000000003,"body":"listening who might not be familiar with"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2134.4500000000003,"endTime":2138.9900000000002,"body":"Michael, he's obviously the author of"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2134.4500000000003,"endTime":2138.9900000000002,"body":"the famous hydrogen ladder, which talks"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2138.9900000000002,"endTime":2143.0,"body":"about where hydrogen will be useful and"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2138.9900000000002,"endTime":2143.0,"body":"won't be useful in the coming years."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2143.675,"endTime":2144.005,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2144.805,"endTime":2146.8250000000003,"body":"Anders, we're coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2144.805,"endTime":2146.8250000000003,"body":"towards the end of the podcast now."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2146.8250000000003,"endTime":2151.8250000000003,"body":"Is there any question I did not ask that"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2146.8250000000003,"endTime":2151.8250000000003,"body":"you wish I did or any aspect of this we"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2151.8250000000003,"endTime":2154.635,"body":"haven't touched on that you think it's"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2151.8250000000003,"endTime":2154.635,"body":"important for people to think about?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2155.128,"endTime":2158.518,"body":"No, I think we have"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2155.128,"endTime":2158.518,"body":"discussed all the important questions"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2158.518,"endTime":2163.958,"body":"and I think the key takeaway from"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2158.518,"endTime":2163.958,"body":"this podcast, the key message from"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2163.958,"endTime":2168.158,"body":"my side is that you need to look"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2163.958,"endTime":2168.158,"body":"at the system holistically and to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2168.158,"endTime":2174.128,"body":"enable renewables to thrive and to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2168.158,"endTime":2174.128,"body":"be implemented as fast as possible."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2174.478,"endTime":2178.578,"body":"You need the flexibility in the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2174.478,"endTime":2178.578,"body":"system and that is often forgotten."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2178.578,"endTime":2182.718,"body":"And that I think is the"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2178.578,"endTime":2182.718,"body":"key message from my side."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2184.068,"endTime":2184.428,"body":"Superb."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2184.908,"endTime":2188.188,"body":"Anders, if people would like to know"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2184.908,"endTime":2188.188,"body":"more about yourself or any of the things"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2188.188,"endTime":2191.068,"body":"we discussed on the podcast today,"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2188.188,"endTime":2191.068,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2192.123,"endTime":2195.353,"body":"So first of all we"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2192.123,"endTime":2195.353,"body":"at Wärtsilä have a webpage and we will"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2195.353,"endTime":2199.8830000000003,"body":"also drop you some links to our webpage"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2195.353,"endTime":2199.8830000000003,"body":"where you can find interesting material."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2200.438,"endTime":2202.938,"body":"And then when it comes to"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2200.438,"endTime":2202.938,"body":"myself, I'm on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2202.938,"endTime":2208.2870000000003,"body":"So I'm available on LinkedIn and post"},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2202.938,"endTime":2208.2870000000003,"body":"messages there every now and then."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2209.137,"endTime":2209.567,"body":"Superb."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2209.7670000000003,"endTime":2210.177,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2210.5370000000003,"endTime":2211.6820000000002,"body":"Anders that's been really interesting."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2211.6820000000002,"endTime":2213.422,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2211.6820000000002,"endTime":2213.422,"body":"on the podcast today."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2214.237,"endTime":2214.447,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Anders Lindberg","startTime":2214.5570000000002,"endTime":2215.317,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2216.331,"endTime":2218.201,"body":"Okay, we've"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2216.331,"endTime":2218.201,"body":"come to the end of the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2218.9210000000003,"endTime":2220.031,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2220.891,"endTime":2225.041,"body":"If you'd like to know more about the"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2220.891,"endTime":2225.041,"body":"Climate Confident podcast, feel free to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2225.051,"endTime":2228.9610000000002,"body":"drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2229.2110000000002,"endTime":2232.6910000000003,"body":"com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2233.261,"endTime":2237.001,"body":"If you like the show, please don't"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2233.261,"endTime":2237.001,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2237.021,"endTime":2241.501,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2237.021,"endTime":2241.501,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2242.131,"endTime":2245.091,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2242.131,"endTime":2245.091,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2245.291,"endTime":2247.821,"body":"It really does help new"},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2245.291,"endTime":2247.821,"body":"people to find the show."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2248.911,"endTime":2249.361,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Tom Raftery","startTime":2250.031,"endTime":2250.951,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}