{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":3.608,"endTime":8.908,"body":"If we can't persuade the majority of"},{"startTime":3.608,"endTime":8.908,"body":"people that they need real change,"},{"startTime":8.988,"endTime":14.368,"body":"really quite soon, none of that tech"},{"startTime":8.988,"endTime":14.368,"body":"is going to really matter that much."},{"startTime":14.758,"endTime":18.088,"body":"And so I think it is a people"},{"startTime":14.758,"endTime":18.088,"body":"problem, and the failures have"},{"startTime":18.088,"endTime":19.568,"body":"mostly been self inflicted."},{"startTime":19.898,"endTime":24.148,"body":"And so I would say, you know, if you"},{"startTime":19.898,"endTime":24.148,"body":"talk to people in any form about climate."},{"startTime":24.658,"endTime":26.908,"body":"Take a step back and say, am I"},{"startTime":24.658,"endTime":26.908,"body":"actually doing this the most effective"},{"startTime":26.928,"endTime":29.608,"body":"way possible, or am I doing this"},{"startTime":26.928,"endTime":29.608,"body":"in a way that's going to appeal to"},{"startTime":29.608,"endTime":31.188,"body":"other people who already like me?"},{"startTime":31.809,"endTime":35.389,"body":"Good morning, good afternoon, or good"},{"startTime":31.809,"endTime":35.389,"body":"evening, wherever you are in the world."},{"startTime":35.709,"endTime":39.439,"body":"This is the Climate Confident"},{"startTime":35.709,"endTime":39.439,"body":"podcast, the number one podcast"},{"startTime":39.579,"endTime":43.349,"body":"showcasing best practices in climate"},{"startTime":39.579,"endTime":43.349,"body":"emission reductions and removals."},{"startTime":43.779,"endTime":45.719,"body":"And I'm your host, Tom Raftery."},{"startTime":45.879,"endTime":49.639,"body":"Don't forget to click follow on this"},{"startTime":45.879,"endTime":49.639,"body":"podcast in your podcast app of choice"},{"startTime":49.799,"endTime":52.159,"body":"to be sure you don't miss any episodes."},{"startTime":53.159,"endTime":53.669,"body":"Hi everyone."},{"startTime":53.679,"endTime":57.119,"body":"And welcome to episode 205 of"},{"startTime":53.679,"endTime":57.119,"body":"the Climate Confident podcast."},{"startTime":57.669,"endTime":58.959,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery."},{"startTime":58.979,"endTime":61.939,"body":"And before we kick off today's"},{"startTime":58.979,"endTime":61.939,"body":"show, I want to take a moment to"},{"startTime":61.939,"endTime":65.809,"body":"express my gratitude to all of"},{"startTime":61.939,"endTime":65.809,"body":"this podcast's amazing supporters."},{"startTime":66.529,"endTime":70.459,"body":"Your support has been instrumental in"},{"startTime":66.529,"endTime":70.459,"body":"keeping this podcast going, and I'm truly"},{"startTime":70.459,"endTime":72.329,"body":"grateful for each and every one of you."},{"startTime":73.112,"endTime":76.332,"body":"If you're not already a supporter, I'd"},{"startTime":73.112,"endTime":76.332,"body":"like to encourage you to consider joining"},{"startTime":76.332,"endTime":79.682,"body":"our community of like minded individuals"},{"startTime":76.332,"endTime":79.682,"body":"who are passionate about climate."},{"startTime":80.512,"endTime":83.822,"body":"Supporting the podcast is easy and"},{"startTime":80.512,"endTime":83.822,"body":"affordable with options starting as"},{"startTime":83.842,"endTime":87.372,"body":"low as just three euros or dollars"},{"startTime":83.842,"endTime":87.372,"body":"a month, which is less than the"},{"startTime":87.382,"endTime":90.532,"body":"cost of a cup of coffee and your"},{"startTime":87.382,"endTime":90.532,"body":"support will make a huge difference"},{"startTime":90.532,"endTime":92.027,"body":"in keeping this show going strong."},{"startTime":92.677,"endTime":95.757,"body":"To become a supporter, simply click on"},{"startTime":92.677,"endTime":95.757,"body":"the support link in the show notes of"},{"startTime":95.767,"endTime":99.077,"body":"this or any episode or visit tinyurl."},{"startTime":99.107,"endTime":101.077,"body":"com slash climate pod."},{"startTime":102.367,"endTime":106.057,"body":"Now in today's episode, I'll be"},{"startTime":102.367,"endTime":106.057,"body":"talking to Ollie Burch, who's CEO"},{"startTime":106.077,"endTime":107.877,"body":"of a company called Among Others."},{"startTime":108.367,"endTime":113.297,"body":"And in the coming weeks, I'll be"},{"startTime":108.367,"endTime":113.297,"body":"speaking to Thom Norman, who's CEO of"},{"startTime":113.307,"endTime":117.987,"body":"FarmKind, Professor Annalisa Bracco,"},{"startTime":113.307,"endTime":117.987,"body":"who's a professor in Georgia Tech,"},{"startTime":118.227,"endTime":122.037,"body":"Ryan Schermerhorn, who's a partner at"},{"startTime":118.227,"endTime":122.037,"body":"a law firm who will be talking about"},{"startTime":122.347,"endTime":126.427,"body":"IP and patents for climate and Dr."},{"startTime":126.427,"endTime":130.027,"body":"Gemma Green, co founder and"},{"startTime":126.427,"endTime":130.027,"body":"exec chair of PowerLedger, where"},{"startTime":130.027,"endTime":131.787,"body":"we'll be talking energy autonomy."},{"startTime":131.787,"endTime":134.397,"body":"So some excellent episodes"},{"startTime":131.787,"endTime":134.397,"body":"coming up in the coming weeks."},{"startTime":134.417,"endTime":139.527,"body":"And as I said, my special guest"},{"startTime":134.417,"endTime":139.527,"body":"today is Ollie from Among Others."},{"startTime":139.537,"endTime":141.927,"body":"So Ollie, welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":141.927,"endTime":143.567,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"startTime":144.428,"endTime":146.438,"body":"Sure, and thank you for having me on, Tom."},{"startTime":146.968,"endTime":148.018,"body":"So, I'm Ollie Burch."},{"startTime":148.078,"endTime":150.288,"body":"I'm a communications strategist."},{"startTime":150.298,"endTime":154.368,"body":"I'm co founder of a small agency"},{"startTime":150.298,"endTime":154.368,"body":"in London called Among Equals that"},{"startTime":154.378,"endTime":157.808,"body":"does a range of things, including"},{"startTime":154.378,"endTime":157.808,"body":"sustainability communications, but I'm"},{"startTime":157.808,"endTime":164.768,"body":"also communications nerd, and I came into"},{"startTime":157.808,"endTime":164.768,"body":"communications because I was disappointed"},{"startTime":164.768,"endTime":168.698,"body":"with the way that climate, the climate"},{"startTime":164.768,"endTime":168.698,"body":"movement was promoting itself and then"},{"startTime":168.698,"endTime":170.268,"body":"I sort of stayed in communications."},{"startTime":170.268,"endTime":171.908,"body":"I didn't really expect to do necessarily."},{"startTime":172.408,"endTime":176.798,"body":"And the last four and a half years since"},{"startTime":172.408,"endTime":176.798,"body":"we started the agency, I've kind of been"},{"startTime":176.798,"endTime":180.768,"body":"focused on the day to day of running"},{"startTime":176.798,"endTime":180.768,"body":"a business and servicing our clients."},{"startTime":180.828,"endTime":184.008,"body":"And I haven't really engaged that"},{"startTime":180.828,"endTime":184.008,"body":"much with the climate movement, but"},{"startTime":185.028,"endTime":188.158,"body":"recently I sort of stuck my head"},{"startTime":185.028,"endTime":188.158,"body":"back above the parapet and I sort of"},{"startTime":188.158,"endTime":191.795,"body":"thought things would have moved on a"},{"startTime":188.158,"endTime":191.795,"body":"lot and that climate comms would have"},{"startTime":191.815,"endTime":194.255,"body":"progressed from sort of four, four and"},{"startTime":191.815,"endTime":194.255,"body":"a half years ago, and it really hasn't."},{"startTime":194.945,"endTime":198.291,"body":"And so I'm a agency sort of co founder"},{"startTime":194.945,"endTime":198.291,"body":"of communication strategy, but I'm also"},{"startTime":198.291,"endTime":202.211,"body":"just sort of annoyed person who cares"},{"startTime":198.291,"endTime":202.211,"body":"about climate change and wants it to be"},{"startTime":202.251,"endTime":203.501,"body":"communicated better, if that makes sense."},{"startTime":204.578,"endTime":204.958,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":204.958,"endTime":209.178,"body":"And how did you get into communications"},{"startTime":204.958,"endTime":209.178,"body":"and what was the pathway to"},{"startTime":209.178,"endTime":210.528,"body":"your setting up Among Equals?"},{"startTime":212.011,"endTime":215.201,"body":"So I did a, originally I did a degree"},{"startTime":212.011,"endTime":215.201,"body":"in behavioral environmental biology."},{"startTime":215.321,"endTime":217.291,"body":"I was fascinated by that"},{"startTime":215.321,"endTime":217.291,"body":"sort of interaction between"},{"startTime":217.881,"endTime":219.191,"body":"creatures and people and planet."},{"startTime":219.846,"endTime":223.696,"body":"And then I did a further degree in"},{"startTime":219.846,"endTime":223.696,"body":"environmental economics and policy."},{"startTime":223.696,"endTime":225.636,"body":"I really thought that would"},{"startTime":223.696,"endTime":225.636,"body":"be the way I was going."},{"startTime":225.636,"endTime":228.106,"body":"And then I met someone who"},{"startTime":225.636,"endTime":228.106,"body":"said, Oh, have you thought about"},{"startTime":228.426,"endTime":229.476,"body":"sustainability communications?"},{"startTime":229.576,"endTime":230.806,"body":"I didn't even know it was a thing."},{"startTime":231.296,"endTime":233.606,"body":"You know, I've been interested in"},{"startTime":231.296,"endTime":233.606,"body":"the climate movement and I've done"},{"startTime":233.606,"endTime":237.821,"body":"some writing and I was sort of a,"},{"startTime":233.606,"endTime":237.821,"body":"annoyed by, at that time it felt"},{"startTime":237.861,"endTime":241.461,"body":"like climate movement wasn't really"},{"startTime":237.861,"endTime":241.461,"body":"engaging business significantly."},{"startTime":241.471,"endTime":242.411,"body":"We're talking about a while ago now."},{"startTime":242.971,"endTime":245.411,"body":"And so I sort of, you know, I'm going"},{"startTime":242.971,"endTime":245.411,"body":"to be in climate, but I'm going to"},{"startTime":245.411,"endTime":248.051,"body":"wear a suit and I'm going to work"},{"startTime":245.411,"endTime":248.051,"body":"for a big business and I'm going"},{"startTime":248.051,"endTime":250.061,"body":"to try and do something from there."},{"startTime":250.671,"endTime":253.476,"body":"And so I went to work for a big global"},{"startTime":250.671,"endTime":253.476,"body":"ad agency that had a brand new sort"},{"startTime":253.476,"endTime":254.716,"body":"of specialist sustainability team."},{"startTime":254.726,"endTime":257.526,"body":"And I worked there for a while"},{"startTime":254.726,"endTime":257.526,"body":"and then through various agencies"},{"startTime":257.616,"endTime":260.366,"body":"and got a little bit frustrated"},{"startTime":257.616,"endTime":260.366,"body":"with how other agencies were."},{"startTime":260.596,"endTime":263.296,"body":"And when a really good friend of"},{"startTime":260.596,"endTime":263.296,"body":"mine and former colleague reached"},{"startTime":263.296,"endTime":265.886,"body":"out and said, Hey, let's start"},{"startTime":263.296,"endTime":265.886,"body":"an agency during the pandemic."},{"startTime":265.956,"endTime":266.896,"body":"I said, yes."},{"startTime":266.906,"endTime":268.916,"body":"And actually it was perfect"},{"startTime":266.906,"endTime":268.916,"body":"time because no one cared"},{"startTime":268.916,"endTime":269.756,"body":"that we didn't have an office."},{"startTime":269.766,"endTime":271.706,"body":"It was just like two or three"},{"startTime":269.766,"endTime":271.706,"body":"of us working from our bedrooms."},{"startTime":271.986,"endTime":274.456,"body":"And now we've got an office and the"},{"startTime":271.986,"endTime":274.456,"body":"team and all of the sort of things"},{"startTime":274.456,"endTime":277.826,"body":"that people expect, but it was"},{"startTime":274.456,"endTime":277.826,"body":"actually a perfect time to do that."},{"startTime":278.376,"endTime":278.496,"body":"And."},{"startTime":279.356,"endTime":282.166,"body":"Climate communications has never"},{"startTime":279.356,"endTime":282.166,"body":"been 100 percent of what I've done."},{"startTime":282.266,"endTime":285.436,"body":"It's always been sort of part of"},{"startTime":282.266,"endTime":285.436,"body":"my job, and I've always done other"},{"startTime":285.436,"endTime":288.526,"body":"things too, because if you're in an"},{"startTime":285.436,"endTime":288.526,"body":"ad agency and you've got a science"},{"startTime":288.526,"endTime":289.946,"body":"background, that's kind of unusual."},{"startTime":289.946,"endTime":293.086,"body":"So people will hook you in whenever"},{"startTime":289.946,"endTime":293.086,"body":"they see something that they don't"},{"startTime":293.086,"endTime":297.376,"body":"understand, or that requires a sort of"},{"startTime":293.086,"endTime":297.376,"body":"technical mindset to engage with it."},{"startTime":297.706,"endTime":300.826,"body":"But it's always sort of fascinated me,"},{"startTime":297.706,"endTime":300.826,"body":"and it's, you know, in my free time."},{"startTime":300.846,"endTime":302.336,"body":"I read about it, I think about it."},{"startTime":302.636,"endTime":304.316,"body":"It's, it's sort of a big focus."},{"startTime":304.316,"endTime":307.731,"body":"And so when we started Among"},{"startTime":304.316,"endTime":307.731,"body":"Equals, We didn't want to just be"},{"startTime":307.851,"endTime":311.771,"body":"a sustainability agency because"},{"startTime":307.851,"endTime":311.771,"body":"it's very easy to get pigeonholed."},{"startTime":312.091,"endTime":314.861,"body":"The sad truth is that if you do"},{"startTime":312.091,"endTime":314.861,"body":"sustainability work, people won't"},{"startTime":314.871,"endTime":316.851,"body":"let you do a brand for their"},{"startTime":314.871,"endTime":316.851,"body":"new beer or something like that."},{"startTime":317.401,"endTime":321.431,"body":"But if you do a brand for people's beer"},{"startTime":317.401,"endTime":321.431,"body":"or you help them sell things, nothing"},{"startTime":321.441,"endTime":322.881,"body":"that makes the world a worse place."},{"startTime":322.881,"endTime":323.701,"body":"We're very clear about that."},{"startTime":323.701,"endTime":327.271,"body":"But if you do that kind of work, you're"},{"startTime":323.701,"endTime":327.271,"body":"then allowed still to do sustainability"},{"startTime":327.311,"endTime":328.611,"body":"communications work, if that makes sense."},{"startTime":328.611,"endTime":329.561,"body":"You don't get pigeonholed."},{"startTime":330.468,"endTime":330.868,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":331.197,"endTime":334.177,"body":"And so I, you know, I came into it"},{"startTime":331.197,"endTime":334.177,"body":"because I was frustrated with how the"},{"startTime":334.177,"endTime":335.637,"body":"climate movement was presenting itself."},{"startTime":336.142,"endTime":338.912,"body":"And then I came to the agency world"},{"startTime":336.142,"endTime":338.912,"body":"and found a lot of people weren't"},{"startTime":338.912,"endTime":341.742,"body":"being as scientific as I had expected"},{"startTime":338.912,"endTime":341.742,"body":"either in terms of how they approach"},{"startTime":341.742,"endTime":346.012,"body":"comms, but there's still lots and"},{"startTime":341.742,"endTime":346.012,"body":"lots of knowledge that then and"},{"startTime":346.012,"endTime":351.309,"body":"now is not really being applied to"},{"startTime":346.012,"endTime":351.309,"body":"climate comms, which is quite bad."},{"startTime":352.009,"endTime":355.009,"body":"So I've spent the last four and a"},{"startTime":352.009,"endTime":355.009,"body":"half years focused on the agency, not"},{"startTime":355.039,"endTime":358.219,"body":"thinking about climate comms, sort of"},{"startTime":355.039,"endTime":358.219,"body":"hoping it was getting better thinking,"},{"startTime":358.219,"endTime":359.049,"body":"assuming it was getting better."},{"startTime":359.299,"endTime":361.799,"body":"And I've started talking to people again"},{"startTime":359.299,"endTime":361.799,"body":"when I've had the time to put my head"},{"startTime":361.799,"endTime":365.259,"body":"above the parapet, and we're not just,"},{"startTime":361.799,"endTime":365.259,"body":"working day to day on the business."},{"startTime":365.784,"endTime":368.744,"body":"And found it really hasn't changed since"},{"startTime":365.784,"endTime":368.744,"body":"four and a half years ago, or they've"},{"startTime":368.744,"endTime":372.354,"body":"been incremental improvements, but"},{"startTime":368.744,"endTime":372.354,"body":"by and large, climate communications"},{"startTime":372.354,"endTime":378.824,"body":"is still a discipline that is not"},{"startTime":372.354,"endTime":378.824,"body":"terribly well informed by either this"},{"startTime":379.104,"endTime":383.254,"body":"from the ad and brand world, or tons"},{"startTime":379.104,"endTime":383.254,"body":"and tons of research, which is being"},{"startTime":383.274,"endTime":386.974,"body":"done in psychology and behavioral"},{"startTime":383.274,"endTime":386.974,"body":"economics and disciplines like that."},{"startTime":387.544,"endTime":391.184,"body":"So the agency is a sort of commercial"},{"startTime":387.544,"endTime":391.184,"body":"agency with a sustainability bent."},{"startTime":391.774,"endTime":395.714,"body":"But there's now we just launched a"},{"startTime":391.774,"endTime":395.714,"body":"new offer all around sort of using"},{"startTime":395.714,"endTime":398.334,"body":"behavioral change in psychology around"},{"startTime":395.714,"endTime":398.334,"body":"good causes because we're just seeing"},{"startTime":398.334,"endTime":403.204,"body":"not enough of it being done leveraging"},{"startTime":398.334,"endTime":403.204,"body":"that insight to be effective, I guess."},{"startTime":404.615,"endTime":411.285,"body":"Okay, and so how do we fix"},{"startTime":404.615,"endTime":411.285,"body":"climate communications?"},{"startTime":411.285,"endTime":413.075,"body":"You know, what's what's"},{"startTime":411.285,"endTime":413.075,"body":"missing from there?"},{"startTime":413.075,"endTime":415.345,"body":"And what do we need to do to fix that?"},{"startTime":416.544,"endTime":419.364,"body":"Yeah, well, I mean, I mean, it's"},{"startTime":416.544,"endTime":419.364,"body":"really, really, really, that's a"},{"startTime":419.444,"endTime":424.814,"body":"big question, but climate is it's"},{"startTime":419.444,"endTime":424.814,"body":"psychologically complicated, right?"},{"startTime":424.824,"endTime":427.744,"body":"And I think that's probably a lot"},{"startTime":424.824,"endTime":427.744,"body":"of, you'll know that, a lot of"},{"startTime":427.744,"endTime":428.694,"body":"your listeners will know that."},{"startTime":429.034,"endTime":432.264,"body":"But we don't always take that"},{"startTime":429.034,"endTime":432.264,"body":"into account when we do comms."},{"startTime":432.264,"endTime":433.564,"body":"In fact, it seems we rarely do."},{"startTime":433.884,"endTime":436.424,"body":"You know, in the sustainability"},{"startTime":433.884,"endTime":436.424,"body":"communications world, there's an"},{"startTime":436.424,"endTime":438.954,"body":"awareness of eco anxiety now, for sure."},{"startTime":438.954,"endTime":439.904,"body":"People talk about that."},{"startTime":440.424,"endTime":444.004,"body":"But the fundamental psychology of"},{"startTime":440.424,"endTime":444.004,"body":"climate change, like how we can actually"},{"startTime":444.004,"endTime":448.384,"body":"engage with it as people, doesn't"},{"startTime":444.004,"endTime":448.384,"body":"seem to be talked about that much."},{"startTime":448.384,"endTime":450.674,"body":"Or if it is, it's not"},{"startTime":448.384,"endTime":450.674,"body":"thought about or applied."},{"startTime":450.674,"endTime":450.794,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":452.749,"endTime":455.809,"body":"You should go all the way back"},{"startTime":452.749,"endTime":455.809,"body":"to our sort of ancient ancestors."},{"startTime":455.869,"endTime":459.254,"body":"I don't want to get too much into"},{"startTime":455.869,"endTime":459.254,"body":"evolutionary psychology because Some"},{"startTime":459.254,"endTime":462.134,"body":"people question the aspect of it, and"},{"startTime":459.254,"endTime":462.134,"body":"I'm not a big expert in evolutionary"},{"startTime":462.134,"endTime":465.364,"body":"psychology, but, you know, it makes"},{"startTime":462.134,"endTime":465.364,"body":"a lot of sense to think we evolved"},{"startTime":465.364,"endTime":469.534,"body":"in a world where we had to deal with,"},{"startTime":465.364,"endTime":469.534,"body":"like, short term crises, urgent things."},{"startTime":469.734,"endTime":472.444,"body":"That tiger, or that saber tooth"},{"startTime":469.734,"endTime":472.444,"body":"tiger, or whatever, is going to eat"},{"startTime":472.444,"endTime":474.364,"body":"me, or I'm going to starve tonight."},{"startTime":474.554,"endTime":479.304,"body":"And we're quite good at dealing with"},{"startTime":474.554,"endTime":479.304,"body":"that kind of urgent, acute crisis, but"},{"startTime":479.304,"endTime":481.464,"body":"we don't seem very psychologically good."},{"startTime":481.464,"endTime":484.734,"body":"And whether it's because of those"},{"startTime":481.464,"endTime":484.734,"body":"ancient ancestors or something"},{"startTime":484.734,"endTime":488.464,"body":"else, we're not very good at"},{"startTime":484.734,"endTime":488.464,"body":"this sort of slow, big crisis."},{"startTime":489.019,"endTime":492.349,"body":"And if you look at the sort of climate"},{"startTime":489.019,"endTime":492.349,"body":"stuff or sustainability stuff where"},{"startTime":492.349,"endTime":496.679,"body":"people have actually acted quite a lot"},{"startTime":492.349,"endTime":496.679,"body":"quite quickly, or at least mindsets have"},{"startTime":496.679,"endTime":498.779,"body":"shifted off, it's stuff that's felt acute."},{"startTime":499.179,"endTime":502.029,"body":"So if you think about the sort of the"},{"startTime":499.179,"endTime":502.029,"body":"ozone crisis, it was something, you"},{"startTime":502.029,"endTime":504.969,"body":"know, quite a few years ago now, but"},{"startTime":502.029,"endTime":504.969,"body":"it kind of felt, Oh my God, this is"},{"startTime":505.029,"endTime":507.339,"body":"urgent right now, this is happening"},{"startTime":505.029,"endTime":507.339,"body":"right now, we need to solve it."},{"startTime":507.709,"endTime":508.319,"body":"Right now."},{"startTime":508.909,"endTime":514.229,"body":"And if you look at the plastics panic what"},{"startTime":508.909,"endTime":514.229,"body":"are we sort of 2000, 2017, maybe obviously"},{"startTime":514.229,"endTime":517.909,"body":"that had been building for a long time"},{"startTime":514.229,"endTime":517.909,"body":"and scientists have been saying, Oh, you"},{"startTime":517.909,"endTime":518.859,"body":"know, there's a bit of a problem here."},{"startTime":518.859,"endTime":520.509,"body":"We've got a lot of plastic"},{"startTime":518.859,"endTime":520.509,"body":"building up in the oceans."},{"startTime":520.909,"endTime":522.889,"body":"Suddenly jumped into the public awareness."},{"startTime":523.219,"endTime":525.539,"body":"In a space of sort of six, eight"},{"startTime":523.219,"endTime":525.539,"body":"months went from being something the"},{"startTime":525.539,"endTime":528.119,"body":"public weren't aware of to something"},{"startTime":525.539,"endTime":528.119,"body":"that suddenly a lot of people were"},{"startTime":528.119,"endTime":530.649,"body":"aware of, thanks to Blue Planet,"},{"startTime":528.119,"endTime":530.649,"body":"thanks to all kinds of things."},{"startTime":531.419,"endTime":533.009,"body":"And it felt like an acute crisis."},{"startTime":533.189,"endTime":536.409,"body":"Now, the actions that came out of"},{"startTime":533.189,"endTime":536.409,"body":"that weren't actually very effective."},{"startTime":536.549,"endTime":539.799,"body":"You know, we don't, we haven't"},{"startTime":536.549,"endTime":539.799,"body":"seen a huge drop in people, but"},{"startTime":539.799,"endTime":542.479,"body":"there was an atmosphere suddenly"},{"startTime":539.799,"endTime":542.479,"body":"where people wanted to drive change"},{"startTime":542.509,"endTime":543.409,"body":"and people were talking about it."},{"startTime":543.419,"endTime":547.069,"body":"And I think it was because it felt"},{"startTime":543.419,"endTime":547.069,"body":"like an acute moment of crisis,"},{"startTime":547.259,"endTime":549.589,"body":"which we sort of good, Oh my"},{"startTime":547.259,"endTime":549.589,"body":"God, this is happening right now."},{"startTime":549.589,"endTime":550.699,"body":"We need to solve it right now."},{"startTime":551.264,"endTime":554.674,"body":"And that's something that, for"},{"startTime":551.264,"endTime":554.674,"body":"the wider climate change, you"},{"startTime":554.674,"endTime":555.654,"body":"know, it's the opposite of that."},{"startTime":556.074,"endTime":560.984,"body":"I mean, Timothy Morton, the sort of"},{"startTime":556.074,"endTime":560.984,"body":"philosopher talks about it as a hyper"},{"startTime":560.984,"endTime":564.414,"body":"object, you know, and I haven't read"},{"startTime":560.984,"endTime":564.414,"body":"their work recently, so I'm probably"},{"startTime":564.414,"endTime":566.774,"body":"going to get some of this wrong, but the"},{"startTime":564.414,"endTime":566.774,"body":"idea is, it's something, climate change"},{"startTime":566.774,"endTime":570.284,"body":"is something so big and all encompassing"},{"startTime":566.774,"endTime":570.284,"body":"that it's literally beyond comprehension,"},{"startTime":570.354,"endTime":573.754,"body":"because it's kind of everywhere,"},{"startTime":570.354,"endTime":573.754,"body":"all at once, affecting everything."},{"startTime":574.239,"endTime":577.909,"body":"So we have this thing that we're"},{"startTime":574.239,"endTime":577.909,"body":"potentially psychologically quite ill"},{"startTime":577.909,"endTime":579.759,"body":"equipped to engage with on the one hand."},{"startTime":580.039,"endTime":582.939,"body":"And on the other hand, we have"},{"startTime":580.039,"endTime":582.939,"body":"an industry a communications."},{"startTime":584.029,"endTime":586.989,"body":"Maybe industry is the wrong word,"},{"startTime":584.029,"endTime":586.989,"body":"but we have an ecosystem of climate"},{"startTime":587.049,"endTime":590.859,"body":"communicators who are, for the"},{"startTime":587.049,"endTime":590.859,"body":"most part, political progressives."},{"startTime":591.939,"endTime":595.259,"body":"As am I Don't know your politics, but,"},{"startTime":591.939,"endTime":595.259,"body":"you know, if you care about the climate"},{"startTime":595.279,"endTime":597.569,"body":"these days, you're probably a progressive."},{"startTime":598.079,"endTime":601.679,"body":"And so when dealing with this issue that"},{"startTime":598.079,"endTime":601.679,"body":"people, I think, inherently find hard"},{"startTime":601.849,"endTime":609.809,"body":"to engage with, we have approached it"},{"startTime":601.849,"endTime":609.809,"body":"with a very aggressive mindset, which"},{"startTime":609.819,"endTime":614.899,"body":"is fine, except that, you know, 40,"},{"startTime":609.819,"endTime":614.899,"body":"50, 60 percent of the public in most"},{"startTime":614.899,"endTime":617.219,"body":"democracies don't have that mindset."},{"startTime":617.569,"endTime":622.309,"body":"And so we've got a sort of"},{"startTime":617.569,"endTime":622.309,"body":"communications complex that is created"},{"startTime":622.339,"endTime":624.719,"body":"and there's, you know, there's NGOs"},{"startTime":622.339,"endTime":624.719,"body":"in this, there's businesses in this,"},{"startTime":625.019,"endTime":628.289,"body":"there's creating comms that can only"},{"startTime":625.019,"endTime":628.289,"body":"really be engaging to 40 something"},{"startTime":628.289,"endTime":629.934,"body":"percent of the population at best."},{"startTime":630.244,"endTime":635.304,"body":"And a potentially actively off putting"},{"startTime":630.244,"endTime":635.304,"body":"to others because they're framed in"},{"startTime":635.304,"endTime":641.089,"body":"a highly progressive way, which is"},{"startTime":635.304,"endTime":641.089,"body":"just not one that resonates with a"},{"startTime":641.089,"endTime":643.639,"body":"lot of people, so we need to fix that."},{"startTime":643.719,"endTime":648.269,"body":"And finally, there is this body of work"},{"startTime":643.719,"endTime":648.269,"body":"that psychologists have done, behavioral"},{"startTime":648.269,"endTime":652.482,"body":"economists have done, that, exists within"},{"startTime":648.269,"endTime":652.482,"body":"marketing for what's effective and not."},{"startTime":652.482,"endTime":657.319,"body":"And climate communicators don't seem"},{"startTime":652.482,"endTime":657.319,"body":"to engage with it, to the point where"},{"startTime":657.989,"endTime":663.579,"body":"basics of, sort of, marketing practice,"},{"startTime":657.989,"endTime":663.579,"body":"one of the most fundamental basics is"},{"startTime":663.609,"endTime":664.809,"body":"to start with your audience, right?"},{"startTime":664.909,"endTime":667.319,"body":"Understand them and build"},{"startTime":664.909,"endTime":667.319,"body":"communications that talk to them."},{"startTime":668.039,"endTime":671.599,"body":"But in climate comms, it's more like,"},{"startTime":668.039,"endTime":671.599,"body":"understand the people who already"},{"startTime":671.609,"endTime":673.899,"body":"care about the issue and talk to them."},{"startTime":674.119,"endTime":677.009,"body":"So much of the comms is preaching"},{"startTime":674.119,"endTime":677.009,"body":"to the choir, and it's sort of"},{"startTime":677.209,"endTime":679.249,"body":"almost set up inherently like that."},{"startTime":679.979,"endTime":684.849,"body":"And it's a big problem because I think"},{"startTime":679.979,"endTime":684.849,"body":"that climate is fundamentally, sort"},{"startTime":684.849,"endTime":687.099,"body":"of, climate change is a people problem."},{"startTime":687.099,"endTime":692.009,"body":"And I don't mean that there's"},{"startTime":687.099,"endTime":692.009,"body":"too many people or that it's"},{"startTime":692.009,"endTime":693.519,"body":"an individual responsibility."},{"startTime":693.519,"endTime":696.429,"body":"It's not, you know, it's a systemic"},{"startTime":693.519,"endTime":696.429,"body":"problem that requires systemic solutions,"},{"startTime":697.089,"endTime":700.479,"body":"but in sort of democracies, we're not"},{"startTime":697.089,"endTime":700.479,"body":"going to get those systemic solutions"},{"startTime":700.749,"endTime":705.129,"body":"you know, if there isn't voter pressure"},{"startTime":700.749,"endTime":705.129,"body":"and so far, we're in a situation where"},{"startTime":705.129,"endTime":711.159,"body":"80 something percent of people in the"},{"startTime":705.129,"endTime":711.159,"body":"UK, it's a lower but similar figure in"},{"startTime":711.159,"endTime":715.439,"body":"the US and I think you'll find, a similar"},{"startTime":711.159,"endTime":715.439,"body":"figure between 60 and 80 something percent"},{"startTime":715.439,"endTime":719.599,"body":"of people across the sort of democratic"},{"startTime":715.439,"endTime":719.599,"body":"world are concerned about climate change,"},{"startTime":720.129,"endTime":721.519,"body":"but no one's really voting that in."},{"startTime":721.519,"endTime":726.129,"body":"You have Trump, you know, a man who"},{"startTime":721.519,"endTime":726.129,"body":"is avowedly going to dismantle climate"},{"startTime":726.159,"endTime":727.549,"body":"agreements or pull out of them."},{"startTime":729.219,"endTime":732.269,"body":"But an electorate in the US that"},{"startTime":729.219,"endTime":732.269,"body":"actually is, you know, concerned if"},{"startTime":732.269,"endTime":734.539,"body":"you survey them about climate change."},{"startTime":734.829,"endTime":738.609,"body":"But we just haven't framed any of"},{"startTime":734.829,"endTime":738.609,"body":"it in a way that really speaks to"},{"startTime":738.609,"endTime":739.879,"body":"people's day to day priorities."},{"startTime":740.489,"endTime":741.599,"body":"It's like the classic"},{"startTime":740.489,"endTime":741.599,"body":"image of a polar bear."},{"startTime":742.159,"endTime":745.349,"body":"We all feel sad when we see the"},{"startTime":742.159,"endTime":745.349,"body":"sad polar bear on the iceberg."},{"startTime":746.289,"endTime":749.809,"body":"But it's very distant from the"},{"startTime":746.289,"endTime":749.809,"body":"average person's psychology."},{"startTime":750.129,"endTime":754.209,"body":"You know, there's a phenomenon called"},{"startTime":750.129,"endTime":754.209,"body":"psychological distance, which is how close"},{"startTime":754.209,"endTime":756.019,"body":"or far we feel from a topic or an issue."},{"startTime":756.339,"endTime":759.579,"body":"And the closer we feel, the more likely"},{"startTime":756.339,"endTime":759.579,"body":"we're actually to do something about it."},{"startTime":760.189,"endTime":761.539,"body":"And it has a few different aspects."},{"startTime":761.559,"endTime":762.499,"body":"There's a temporal aspect."},{"startTime":762.499,"endTime":764.389,"body":"You know, is it happening now or"},{"startTime":762.499,"endTime":764.389,"body":"is it happening in the future?"},{"startTime":764.739,"endTime":766.969,"body":"There's a sort of geographical"},{"startTime":764.739,"endTime":766.969,"body":"or spatial aspect."},{"startTime":767.029,"endTime":768.959,"body":"Is it close to me or far away?"},{"startTime":769.309,"endTime":770.189,"body":"There's a social aspect."},{"startTime":770.189,"endTime":771.499,"body":"Is this happening to people I know?"},{"startTime":771.964,"endTime":774.804,"body":"And then there's a sort of"},{"startTime":771.964,"endTime":774.804,"body":"hypotheticality, might it not happen?"},{"startTime":775.324,"endTime":779.624,"body":"And when we look at that polar bear on an"},{"startTime":775.324,"endTime":779.624,"body":"iceberg, he lives a long way away from me."},{"startTime":779.904,"endTime":781.834,"body":"I don't socialize with many polar bears."},{"startTime":782.444,"endTime":784.474,"body":"His ice is maybe melting, maybe not."},{"startTime":784.504,"endTime":784.964,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":785.184,"endTime":787.774,"body":"So, you know, that polar bear is great"},{"startTime":785.184,"endTime":787.774,"body":"for making me feel bad for a minute"},{"startTime":787.774,"endTime":788.934,"body":"and great for making me sympathise."},{"startTime":788.934,"endTime":791.974,"body":"You want me to sympathise and donate a bit"},{"startTime":788.934,"endTime":791.974,"body":"of money for that polar bear to be happy?"},{"startTime":792.074,"endTime":792.654,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":793.214,"endTime":794.264,"body":"But you want me to change my life?"},{"startTime":795.204,"endTime":798.154,"body":"Because this polar bear who I've"},{"startTime":795.204,"endTime":798.154,"body":"never met is having a bad time."},{"startTime":798.654,"endTime":803.044,"body":"That's kind of a different proposition"},{"startTime":798.654,"endTime":803.044,"body":"and so we have this gap between concern"},{"startTime":803.434,"endTime":808.874,"body":"that is quite high as people survey it"},{"startTime":803.434,"endTime":808.874,"body":"and action which we know is really not"},{"startTime":808.874,"endTime":813.224,"body":"enough and by action I do mean stuff like"},{"startTime":808.874,"endTime":813.224,"body":"voting, you know, I do mean that systemic"},{"startTime":813.264,"endTime":814.824,"body":"action as well as individual action."},{"startTime":815.574,"endTime":818.394,"body":"So, you know, I think that was a pretty"},{"startTime":815.574,"endTime":818.394,"body":"long and rambling answer, but hopefully"},{"startTime":818.394,"endTime":821.464,"body":"I kind of addressed your question there."},{"startTime":822.104,"endTime":826.441,"body":"Well, let's take a step back, because"},{"startTime":822.104,"endTime":826.441,"body":"you've kind of touched on one of"},{"startTime":826.441,"endTime":829.041,"body":"the big issues around climate."},{"startTime":829.041,"endTime":833.441,"body":"And that is that it has"},{"startTime":829.041,"endTime":833.441,"body":"become a very polarised topic."},{"startTime":833.911,"endTime":837.411,"body":"I mean, back in the 80s, when the"},{"startTime":833.911,"endTime":837.411,"body":"Montreal protocol was passed for"},{"startTime":837.411,"endTime":838.901,"body":"ozone that you, you talked about."},{"startTime":839.721,"endTime":843.986,"body":"Climate was it wasn't talked"},{"startTime":839.721,"endTime":843.986,"body":"about as much, but politically"},{"startTime":844.626,"endTime":845.876,"body":"it wasn't polarised at all."},{"startTime":845.926,"endTime":851.886,"body":"I mean, it was a bipartisan issue in the"},{"startTime":845.926,"endTime":851.886,"body":"US whereas now it's completely polarised."},{"startTime":852.096,"endTime":854.416,"body":"So, A, why?"},{"startTime":854.466,"endTime":857.306,"body":"And B, is that something we can fix?"},{"startTime":859.029,"endTime":859.919,"body":"Well, I hope so."},{"startTime":860.259,"endTime":863.129,"body":"I mean, otherwise, I mean, you"},{"startTime":860.259,"endTime":863.129,"body":"might say we're in trouble already,"},{"startTime":863.129,"endTime":864.129,"body":"but we'll be really bad for it."},{"startTime":864.329,"endTime":865.529,"body":"So yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":865.529,"endTime":872.139,"body":"In 91, 92, 78% of Americans"},{"startTime":865.529,"endTime":872.139,"body":"identified as environmentalists."},{"startTime":872.869,"endTime":876.169,"body":"And that was, you know, it was 50"},{"startTime":872.869,"endTime":876.169,"body":"50 across Republicans and Democrats."},{"startTime":877.689,"endTime":880.409,"body":"2016, total percentage"},{"startTime":877.689,"endTime":880.409,"body":"was something like 40%."},{"startTime":880.843,"endTime":883.803,"body":"Democrats were twice as likely to say"},{"startTime":880.843,"endTime":883.803,"body":"they're environmentalists as Republicans."},{"startTime":883.923,"endTime":884.533,"body":"That was 2016."},{"startTime":884.533,"endTime":887.693,"body":"I don't know what the figure will be"},{"startTime":884.533,"endTime":887.693,"body":"like now, but I'm sure it's worse."},{"startTime":887.973,"endTime":888.853,"body":"George Bush Sr."},{"startTime":889.353,"endTime":893.613,"body":"One of the major parts of his platform"},{"startTime":889.353,"endTime":893.613,"body":"for his first, I think it was his first"},{"startTime":893.613,"endTime":896.343,"body":"election, was solving global warming."},{"startTime":896.963,"endTime":900.353,"body":"And then, you know, a couple of"},{"startTime":896.963,"endTime":900.353,"body":"years in, the lobbying from the oil"},{"startTime":900.353,"endTime":903.213,"body":"companies is really looking quite"},{"startTime":900.353,"endTime":903.213,"body":"persuasive, and no one's really putting"},{"startTime":903.213,"endTime":906.123,"body":"any pressure on me, so maybe we can"},{"startTime":903.213,"endTime":906.123,"body":"just kick this into the long weeds."},{"startTime":906.383,"endTime":910.383,"body":"And then since then, it's become this,"},{"startTime":906.383,"endTime":910.383,"body":"as you say, this politicised issue."},{"startTime":910.908,"endTime":913.818,"body":"And this sort of leads back to the"},{"startTime":910.908,"endTime":913.818,"body":"kind of thing I was saying before"},{"startTime":913.818,"endTime":917.908,"body":"about the fact that we have framed it"},{"startTime":913.818,"endTime":917.908,"body":"in progressive terms or perhaps more"},{"startTime":917.908,"endTime":923.678,"body":"to the point we've failed to frame it"},{"startTime":917.908,"endTime":923.678,"body":"in sort of conservative terms as well."},{"startTime":924.508,"endTime":927.408,"body":"So there's a few reasons for that,"},{"startTime":924.508,"endTime":927.408,"body":"but first, what does that look like?"},{"startTime":928.398,"endTime":931.468,"body":"So there's a guy called Lakoff, George"},{"startTime":928.398,"endTime":931.468,"body":"Lakoff, I mean, a guy, you know,"},{"startTime":931.478,"endTime":934.038,"body":"he's a leading cognitive linguist,"},{"startTime":931.478,"endTime":934.038,"body":"probably in his eighties or something."},{"startTime":934.038,"endTime":936.368,"body":"He's not just a guy, you know,"},{"startTime":934.038,"endTime":936.368,"body":"he's a long, he's written a bunch"},{"startTime":936.368,"endTime":939.718,"body":"of fascinating books about mostly"},{"startTime":936.368,"endTime":939.718,"body":"US politics, but also climate."},{"startTime":940.233,"endTime":944.333,"body":"And one of his sort of theses is that"},{"startTime":940.233,"endTime":944.333,"body":"we have a sort of fundamental frame"},{"startTime":944.343,"endTime":946.353,"body":"through which we understand the world."},{"startTime":946.663,"endTime":949.853,"body":"And there is a sort of there is"},{"startTime":946.663,"endTime":949.853,"body":"a right wing conservative frame"},{"startTime":950.253,"endTime":952.013,"body":"and a left wing progressive frame."},{"startTime":952.523,"endTime":957.533,"body":"And, you know, it's sort of fundamental"},{"startTime":952.523,"endTime":957.533,"body":"progressive frame is engaged by and"},{"startTime":957.683,"endTime":962.653,"body":"persuaded by things like the collective"},{"startTime":957.683,"endTime":962.653,"body":"good and the sort of common future."},{"startTime":963.253,"endTime":965.093,"body":"And sort of ideas like that."},{"startTime":965.133,"endTime":965.933,"body":"Ideas which are."},{"startTime":966.273,"endTime":970.933,"body":"woven through all of our climate comms"},{"startTime":966.273,"endTime":970.933,"body":"today versus a conservative mindset"},{"startTime":971.588,"endTime":978.128,"body":"which is more driven by patriotism"},{"startTime":971.588,"endTime":978.128,"body":"and protecting what we currently have."},{"startTime":978.678,"endTime":981.338,"body":"Literally, you know, little c"},{"startTime":978.678,"endTime":981.338,"body":"conservative, let's protect what we"},{"startTime":981.338,"endTime":987.298,"body":"have and sort of defending purity and"},{"startTime":981.338,"endTime":987.298,"body":"the sort of more moral driven rather"},{"startTime":987.298,"endTime":988.608,"body":"than outcome driven of the world."},{"startTime":988.608,"endTime":992.968,"body":"You could almost think of it as sort of, a"},{"startTime":988.608,"endTime":992.968,"body":"morality driven worldview versus a sort of"},{"startTime":993.008,"endTime":995.648,"body":"consequentialist outcome driven worldview."},{"startTime":996.028,"endTime":1001.198,"body":"And we've failed for you know, I guess"},{"startTime":996.028,"endTime":1001.198,"body":"20 something, 30 something, 40, I don't"},{"startTime":1001.198,"endTime":1005.388,"body":"know, quite a long time now to really,"},{"startTime":1001.198,"endTime":1005.388,"body":"not just climate comms, but particularly"},{"startTime":1005.398,"endTime":1010.238,"body":"climate comms to frame it through"},{"startTime":1005.398,"endTime":1010.238,"body":"that right wing conservative frame."},{"startTime":1010.258,"endTime":1013.178,"body":"And there's no reason why it shouldn't"},{"startTime":1010.258,"endTime":1013.178,"body":"have been framed by that and couldn't"},{"startTime":1013.208,"endTime":1015.258,"body":"be framed like that going forwards."},{"startTime":1015.971,"endTime":1021.661,"body":"It is not a stretch to frame fighting"},{"startTime":1015.971,"endTime":1021.661,"body":"climate change as a patriotic act."},{"startTime":1022.271,"endTime":1026.831,"body":"It is not a stretch to say that we're sort"},{"startTime":1022.271,"endTime":1026.831,"body":"of defending the purity of our ecosystem"},{"startTime":1027.331,"endTime":1029.021,"body":"when we talk about climate change."},{"startTime":1029.281,"endTime":1032.681,"body":"And, at the last US election,"},{"startTime":1029.281,"endTime":1032.681,"body":"though, it didn't work out."},{"startTime":1032.951,"endTime":1036.601,"body":"And actually a little bit before we"},{"startTime":1032.951,"endTime":1036.601,"body":"have started to see the Democrats a"},{"startTime":1036.641,"endTime":1041.491,"body":"little bit use some of that language"},{"startTime":1036.641,"endTime":1041.491,"body":"in their climate communications."},{"startTime":1041.761,"endTime":1044.361,"body":"So, Biden was talking a bit about."},{"startTime":1045.138,"endTime":1049.498,"body":"you know, when he brought in various"},{"startTime":1045.138,"endTime":1049.498,"body":"big legislative things that after the"},{"startTime":1049.518,"endTime":1053.748,"body":"pandemic that included significant"},{"startTime":1049.518,"endTime":1053.748,"body":"funding in sort of eco stuff."},{"startTime":1053.778,"endTime":1057.468,"body":"It was framed in a more patriotic"},{"startTime":1053.778,"endTime":1057.468,"body":"way than has been traditional."},{"startTime":1058.158,"endTime":1062.968,"body":"And so there are small changes there,"},{"startTime":1058.158,"endTime":1062.968,"body":"but there's a big problem, which is"},{"startTime":1062.968,"endTime":1067.698,"body":"that I think on this issue, as with"},{"startTime":1062.968,"endTime":1067.698,"body":"quite a few others, progressives would"},{"startTime":1067.698,"endTime":1072.298,"body":"rather look good in front of other"},{"startTime":1067.698,"endTime":1072.298,"body":"progressives than actually make a change."},{"startTime":1073.218,"endTime":1074.078,"body":"That might be a little bit unfair."},{"startTime":1074.773,"endTime":1077.433,"body":"There is a fear of being"},{"startTime":1074.773,"endTime":1077.433,"body":"criticised by other progressives."},{"startTime":1078.063,"endTime":1080.183,"body":"That means that what you need to do."},{"startTime":1080.653,"endTime":1082.683,"body":"It's probably put stuff out"},{"startTime":1080.653,"endTime":1082.683,"body":"there that things like you and"},{"startTime":1082.723,"endTime":1086.643,"body":"me and people that listen to your"},{"startTime":1082.723,"endTime":1086.643,"body":"podcast don't find very appealing."},{"startTime":1087.013,"endTime":1091.373,"body":"It might even make us feel a little"},{"startTime":1087.013,"endTime":1091.373,"body":"bit uncomfortable, but that's what"},{"startTime":1091.373,"endTime":1092.973,"body":"we will need to do to be effective."},{"startTime":1093.203,"endTime":1097.463,"body":"You know, we need to drape"},{"startTime":1093.203,"endTime":1097.463,"body":"climate action in the flag."},{"startTime":1097.493,"endTime":1101.913,"body":"We need to tap into, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1097.493,"endTime":1101.913,"body":"Churchill and Reagan and that kind of"},{"startTime":1101.913,"endTime":1106.083,"body":"thing to get people to care about it,"},{"startTime":1101.913,"endTime":1106.083,"body":"to reach beyond the converted, because"},{"startTime":1106.083,"endTime":1110.373,"body":"so much communications, you know, it"},{"startTime":1106.083,"endTime":1110.373,"body":"fails in other ways too, probably."},{"startTime":1110.483,"endTime":1114.453,"body":"But the first failure is that it's"},{"startTime":1110.483,"endTime":1114.453,"body":"preaching to the choir, always."},{"startTime":1114.783,"endTime":1118.223,"body":"And so that we're never gonna get the"},{"startTime":1114.783,"endTime":1118.223,"body":"political consensus that we need the"},{"startTime":1118.223,"endTime":1122.128,"body":"action that we need whilst we are only"},{"startTime":1118.223,"endTime":1122.128,"body":"talking to, you know, 30 something"},{"startTime":1122.128,"endTime":1124.553,"body":"percent of the population who are already"},{"startTime":1122.128,"endTime":1124.553,"body":"worried and already like to change."},{"startTime":1124.553,"endTime":1124.903,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":1125.924,"endTime":1128.604,"body":"Yeah, no point in, as you say,"},{"startTime":1125.924,"endTime":1128.604,"body":"preaching to the converted."},{"startTime":1128.604,"endTime":1131.734,"body":"So we got to tell them that"},{"startTime":1128.604,"endTime":1131.734,"body":"fixing climate will mean that no"},{"startTime":1131.734,"endTime":1132.994,"body":"woman will ever want an abortion."},{"startTime":1134.793,"endTime":1138.273,"body":"I mean, hopefully we can find something"},{"startTime":1134.793,"endTime":1138.273,"body":"that isn't quite, but yeah, I mean,"},{"startTime":1138.283,"endTime":1142.603,"body":"you know, we need to engage with the,"},{"startTime":1138.283,"endTime":1142.603,"body":"with the arguments that are appealing"},{"startTime":1142.913,"endTime":1144.603,"body":"to people we may not agree with."},{"startTime":1145.223,"endTime":1146.683,"body":"And this is sort of what"},{"startTime":1145.223,"endTime":1146.683,"body":"I was talking about."},{"startTime":1147.183,"endTime":1149.303,"body":"in climate comms it has been forgotten."},{"startTime":1149.543,"endTime":1154.233,"body":"The first basic principles of marketing,"},{"startTime":1149.543,"endTime":1154.233,"body":"which is to understand your audience"},{"startTime":1154.563,"endTime":1157.393,"body":"and the audience is more than just crowd"},{"startTime":1154.563,"endTime":1157.393,"body":"control, but yeah, so hopefully not,"},{"startTime":1157.743,"endTime":1160.253,"body":"you know, if we fix climate change, no"},{"startTime":1157.743,"endTime":1160.253,"body":"one will ever want an abortion again,"},{"startTime":1160.513,"endTime":1164.983,"body":"but I hope, you know, we do need to"},{"startTime":1160.513,"endTime":1164.983,"body":"engage with what gets people going,"},{"startTime":1165.863,"endTime":1166.553,"body":"you know, absolutely."},{"startTime":1167.904,"endTime":1171.074,"body":"Looking back on the American"},{"startTime":1167.904,"endTime":1171.074,"body":"election, apparently one of the"},{"startTime":1171.074,"endTime":1173.294,"body":"big trigger issues was the economy."},{"startTime":1173.294,"endTime":1177.544,"body":"So maybe we say fixing climate helps"},{"startTime":1173.294,"endTime":1177.544,"body":"fix the economy because, you know, you"},{"startTime":1177.544,"endTime":1181.914,"body":"won't have that many climate disasters,"},{"startTime":1177.544,"endTime":1181.914,"body":"which cost hundreds of billions to fix."},{"startTime":1183.143,"endTime":1183.343,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1183.343,"endTime":1184.983,"body":"And so, absolutely."},{"startTime":1185.303,"endTime":1187.923,"body":"I think an economic argument"},{"startTime":1185.303,"endTime":1187.923,"body":"around climate has been made,"},{"startTime":1187.943,"endTime":1189.113,"body":"but it's been highly academic."},{"startTime":1189.533,"endTime":1191.793,"body":"You know, there's this sort of"},{"startTime":1189.533,"endTime":1191.793,"body":"ecosystem services discourse."},{"startTime":1191.793,"endTime":1194.423,"body":"I think it's called something slightly"},{"startTime":1191.793,"endTime":1194.423,"body":"different now, but it's the same idea."},{"startTime":1194.423,"endTime":1195.683,"body":"It's what's the financial back?"},{"startTime":1195.943,"endTime":1197.243,"body":"And, you know, that's great."},{"startTime":1197.743,"endTime":1201.553,"body":"It's important work, but it's, it's"},{"startTime":1197.743,"endTime":1201.553,"body":"incredibly difficult to understand."},{"startTime":1201.553,"endTime":1204.933,"body":"And I think the economy is a"},{"startTime":1201.553,"endTime":1204.933,"body":"brilliant parallel because no one"},{"startTime":1204.933,"endTime":1205.993,"body":"really understands the economy."},{"startTime":1206.063,"endTime":1209.033,"body":"You know, voters as a general"},{"startTime":1206.063,"endTime":1209.033,"body":"rule don't understand economics."},{"startTime":1209.383,"endTime":1210.453,"body":"I mean, I've studied economics."},{"startTime":1211.518,"endTime":1213.078,"body":"And I don't understand"},{"startTime":1211.518,"endTime":1213.078,"body":"it, that's for sure."},{"startTime":1213.338,"endTime":1216.828,"body":"So, you know, voters don't necessarily"},{"startTime":1213.338,"endTime":1216.828,"body":"understand it, but you're absolutely"},{"startTime":1216.828,"endTime":1221.328,"body":"right, the recent US election was"},{"startTime":1216.828,"endTime":1221.328,"body":"definitely driven by that, and the"},{"startTime":1221.328,"endTime":1224.478,"body":"feeling that people had that they"},{"startTime":1221.328,"endTime":1224.478,"body":"were suffering economically, and"},{"startTime":1224.498,"endTime":1225.558,"body":"Trump was taking that seriously."},{"startTime":1225.558,"endTime":1228.678,"body":"He was saying, I'm going to shake things"},{"startTime":1225.558,"endTime":1228.678,"body":"up, and the Democrats weren't saying that."},{"startTime":1229.338,"endTime":1232.638,"body":"So, you know, smarter people than"},{"startTime":1229.338,"endTime":1232.638,"body":"I will have done a better diagnosis"},{"startTime":1232.638,"endTime":1237.651,"body":"of what's led to Trump's coming in,"},{"startTime":1232.638,"endTime":1237.651,"body":"but the economy is a good example."},{"startTime":1237.691,"endTime":1241.121,"body":"So people don't really understand"},{"startTime":1237.691,"endTime":1241.121,"body":"but it's in the top two or three or"},{"startTime":1241.121,"endTime":1245.691,"body":"four issues at any given election"},{"startTime":1241.121,"endTime":1245.691,"body":"is perceived economic competence of"},{"startTime":1245.691,"endTime":1248.241,"body":"the person that they voted in, even"},{"startTime":1245.691,"endTime":1248.241,"body":"though people don't really understand."},{"startTime":1248.871,"endTime":1251.851,"body":"And in climate, you know, I think people"},{"startTime":1248.871,"endTime":1251.851,"body":"have moved on a little bit, but for"},{"startTime":1251.851,"endTime":1255.581,"body":"decades, you know, their efforts, we"},{"startTime":1251.851,"endTime":1255.581,"body":"make people understand climate change."},{"startTime":1256.006,"endTime":1258.286,"body":"Well, people don't understand"},{"startTime":1256.006,"endTime":1258.286,"body":"the economy, but they understand"},{"startTime":1258.286,"endTime":1259.726,"body":"that it matters for their lives."},{"startTime":1259.866,"endTime":1261.336,"body":"So they go and vote for it."},{"startTime":1261.676,"endTime":1265.446,"body":"And so we don't need to say"},{"startTime":1261.676,"endTime":1265.446,"body":"mathematically, this is what"},{"startTime":1265.446,"endTime":1266.846,"body":"climate means to the economy."},{"startTime":1267.186,"endTime":1271.256,"body":"We need people to understand that climate"},{"startTime":1267.186,"endTime":1271.256,"body":"change is going to impact their lives in"},{"startTime":1271.256,"endTime":1274.286,"body":"the same negative way that a poor economy"},{"startTime":1271.256,"endTime":1274.286,"body":"does, and that solving it will impact"},{"startTime":1274.356,"endTime":1279.026,"body":"their lives in a positive way, in the same"},{"startTime":1274.356,"endTime":1279.026,"body":"way that a sort of positive economy will."},{"startTime":1279.506,"endTime":1282.696,"body":"And we need people to understand"},{"startTime":1279.506,"endTime":1282.696,"body":"that argument sort of emotionally"},{"startTime":1282.816,"endTime":1284.646,"body":"and feel that personal relevance."},{"startTime":1284.676,"endTime":1288.766,"body":"This is going to get you so that yes,"},{"startTime":1284.676,"endTime":1288.766,"body":"an economic argument is part of it."},{"startTime":1289.076,"endTime":1292.466,"body":"But more like we need to think about"},{"startTime":1289.076,"endTime":1292.466,"body":"how successful politicians frame"},{"startTime":1292.466,"endTime":1294.876,"body":"arguments around the economy, which"},{"startTime":1292.466,"endTime":1294.876,"body":"is we're going to make it better."},{"startTime":1295.206,"endTime":1298.476,"body":"And these are the bits of the economy"},{"startTime":1295.206,"endTime":1298.476,"body":"that actually matters to you and take"},{"startTime":1298.476,"endTime":1301.651,"body":"that lesson that no one understands"},{"startTime":1298.476,"endTime":1301.651,"body":"the economics, but they still go and"},{"startTime":1301.651,"endTime":1304.121,"body":"vote for whoever they think is going"},{"startTime":1301.651,"endTime":1304.121,"body":"to do a good job in the economy."},{"startTime":1304.491,"endTime":1307.391,"body":"And so we need to get climate change"},{"startTime":1304.491,"endTime":1307.391,"body":"up there and stop trying to make people"},{"startTime":1307.391,"endTime":1311.901,"body":"understand it, and try and make people"},{"startTime":1307.391,"endTime":1311.901,"body":"feel that it matters in the same way as"},{"startTime":1311.901,"endTime":1313.531,"body":"the economy does, if that makes sense."},{"startTime":1314.722,"endTime":1320.042,"body":"What about the usage of"},{"startTime":1314.722,"endTime":1320.042,"body":"very simplistic messages?"},{"startTime":1320.792,"endTime":1321.672,"body":"Almost to your point."},{"startTime":1322.302,"endTime":1324.112,"body":"I have two examples I'm thinking of."},{"startTime":1325.292,"endTime":1326.312,"body":"Get Brexit Done."},{"startTime":1327.272,"endTime":1330.202,"body":"Three word slogan, massively successful."},{"startTime":1330.562,"endTime":1332.872,"body":"Won Boris the 2020 election."},{"startTime":1333.422,"endTime":1337.762,"body":"And the other one, which is kind of"},{"startTime":1333.422,"endTime":1337.762,"body":"on the other side of the argument"},{"startTime":1337.812,"endTime":1340.242,"body":"around climate is Just Stop Oil."},{"startTime":1341.492,"endTime":1344.862,"body":"And again, very simple three word slogan."},{"startTime":1345.312,"endTime":1349.277,"body":"Obviously, you can't just stop oil,"},{"startTime":1345.312,"endTime":1349.277,"body":"obviously you can't just get Brexit done,"},{"startTime":1350.277,"endTime":1355.327,"body":"but those two have encapsulated messages,"},{"startTime":1350.277,"endTime":1355.327,"body":"to your point, no one understands the"},{"startTime":1355.327,"endTime":1361.807,"body":"economy, so let's fix the economy, that"},{"startTime":1355.327,"endTime":1361.807,"body":"kind of slogan for, for politicians."},{"startTime":1363.517,"endTime":1368.019,"body":"Let's stop oil isn't one that, that moves"},{"startTime":1363.517,"endTime":1368.019,"body":"the Overton window too far and it doesn't"},{"startTime":1368.029,"endTime":1373.079,"body":"bring in the kind of right leaning people"},{"startTime":1368.029,"endTime":1373.079,"body":"that you're saying we need to address."},{"startTime":1373.089,"endTime":1380.569,"body":"So, but is that the kind of messaging, the"},{"startTime":1373.089,"endTime":1380.569,"body":"kind of simplistic three word slogan motif"},{"startTime":1381.419,"endTime":1382.119,"body":"bringing people in?"},{"startTime":1383.339,"endTime":1384.248,"body":"That certainly has to be part of it."},{"startTime":1385.298,"endTime":1388.423,"body":"Just Stop Oil oil, I"},{"startTime":1385.298,"endTime":1388.423,"body":"think it's a good slogan."},{"startTime":1388.583,"endTime":1390.033,"body":"I can't argue with that."},{"startTime":1390.333,"endTime":1392.663,"body":"Has it achieved a great deal of success?"},{"startTime":1392.803,"endTime":1396.923,"body":"I'm not sure that it has, because I do"},{"startTime":1392.803,"endTime":1396.923,"body":"think it's still, the whole movement is"},{"startTime":1396.943,"endTime":1404.623,"body":"coming from that same crisis, activist,"},{"startTime":1396.943,"endTime":1404.623,"body":"left wing kind of feeling, which doesn't"},{"startTime":1404.663,"endTime":1408.843,"body":"really sit comfortably with not just"},{"startTime":1404.663,"endTime":1408.843,"body":"conservatives, but an awful lot of people."},{"startTime":1409.783,"endTime":1413.203,"body":"But, you know, yes, I mean,"},{"startTime":1409.783,"endTime":1413.203,"body":"Get Brexit Done was great"},{"startTime":1413.243,"endTime":1414.183,"body":"because it also spoke to people."},{"startTime":1414.203,"endTime":1415.033,"body":"Everyone was sick."},{"startTime":1415.033,"endTime":1420.013,"body":"Even progressives were sick of the sort"},{"startTime":1415.033,"endTime":1420.013,"body":"of endless, I mean, I would much rather"},{"startTime":1420.013,"endTime":1424.593,"body":"we stayed in, but everyone was sick"},{"startTime":1420.013,"endTime":1424.593,"body":"of this sort of endless discussion."},{"startTime":1425.363,"endTime":1427.916,"body":"And, the promise was we're going"},{"startTime":1425.363,"endTime":1427.916,"body":"to stop having to talk about and"},{"startTime":1427.916,"endTime":1428.926,"body":"hear about this thing every day."},{"startTime":1429.166,"endTime":1433.496,"body":"You can stop having to think about"},{"startTime":1429.166,"endTime":1433.496,"body":"this tedious thing all the time."},{"startTime":1433.656,"endTime":1436.646,"body":"Now, obviously, we got to stop"},{"startTime":1433.656,"endTime":1436.646,"body":"thinking about that tedious thing,"},{"startTime":1436.656,"endTime":1438.366,"body":"and in the UK, it hasn't been great."},{"startTime":1438.696,"endTime":1442.556,"body":"Even people who voted out now"},{"startTime":1438.696,"endTime":1442.556,"body":"agree that it was not great."},{"startTime":1443.006,"endTime":1446.246,"body":"But, that slogan promised"},{"startTime":1443.006,"endTime":1446.246,"body":"relief from pain, almost."},{"startTime":1446.516,"endTime":1449.096,"body":"You know, this sort of"},{"startTime":1446.516,"endTime":1449.096,"body":"existential, are we in, are we out?"},{"startTime":1449.126,"endTime":1449.806,"body":"What's happening?"},{"startTime":1449.806,"endTime":1452.256,"body":"This endless crisis negotiations."},{"startTime":1452.988,"endTime":1456.768,"body":"There was an argument made when Biden"},{"startTime":1452.988,"endTime":1456.768,"body":"originally got in that part of what"},{"startTime":1457.568,"endTime":1461.178,"body":"he was promising, not explicitly,"},{"startTime":1457.568,"endTime":1461.178,"body":"but implicitly, was you have to hear"},{"startTime":1461.178,"endTime":1462.528,"body":"less about politics for a while."},{"startTime":1463.333,"endTime":1467.063,"body":"Because Trump was so noisy, and you"},{"startTime":1463.333,"endTime":1467.063,"body":"know, that visibility is always good,"},{"startTime":1467.169,"endTime":1470.868,"body":"people are more likely to pick for things"},{"startTime":1467.169,"endTime":1470.868,"body":"they've heard of, but he felt very noisy"},{"startTime":1470.868,"endTime":1476.189,"body":"all the time in the US and, you know,"},{"startTime":1470.868,"endTime":1476.189,"body":"there was an argument made that part of"},{"startTime":1476.509,"endTime":1479.529,"body":"Biden's original appeal was, maybe we"},{"startTime":1476.509,"endTime":1479.529,"body":"don't have to hear about this so much."},{"startTime":1479.709,"endTime":1482.179,"body":"Whether that was true or not, I don't"},{"startTime":1479.709,"endTime":1482.179,"body":"know, but certainly for Get Brexit"},{"startTime":1482.189,"endTime":1484.319,"body":"Done, like, absolutely, like, I don't"},{"startTime":1482.189,"endTime":1484.319,"body":"want to hear about that anymore."},{"startTime":1484.579,"endTime":1487.279,"body":"So it was a short, pithy slogan,"},{"startTime":1484.579,"endTime":1487.279,"body":"but it also spoke to how a"},{"startTime":1487.279,"endTime":1488.309,"body":"bunch of people were thinking."},{"startTime":1488.979,"endTime":1493.349,"body":"And Just Stop Oil is good because it"},{"startTime":1488.979,"endTime":1493.349,"body":"implies action, and I think in the sort"},{"startTime":1493.349,"endTime":1498.799,"body":"of outside of the eco sphere, there's"},{"startTime":1493.349,"endTime":1498.799,"body":"not a feeling that environmentalists"},{"startTime":1499.229,"endTime":1503.829,"body":"whinge a lot and talk a lot and don't"},{"startTime":1499.229,"endTime":1503.829,"body":"necessarily get things done, but it"},{"startTime":1503.829,"endTime":1508.529,"body":"has been framed in a way, and the"},{"startTime":1503.829,"endTime":1508.529,"body":"activists have acted in a way, as with"},{"startTime":1508.529,"endTime":1513.109,"body":"Extinction Rebellion, as with, that is"},{"startTime":1508.529,"endTime":1513.109,"body":"deeply appealing to a group that doesn't"},{"startTime":1513.119,"endTime":1519.364,"body":"seem to have managed to translate into"},{"startTime":1513.119,"endTime":1519.364,"body":"mainstream appeal or mainstream I should"},{"startTime":1519.364,"endTime":1521.384,"body":"accept this inconvenience on my life."},{"startTime":1521.904,"endTime":1524.774,"body":"I need because it's worth it"},{"startTime":1521.904,"endTime":1524.774,"body":"because this is big enough."},{"startTime":1524.824,"endTime":1528.304,"body":"This is important enough in"},{"startTime":1524.824,"endTime":1528.304,"body":"real terms, if that makes sense."},{"startTime":1528.854,"endTime":1531.224,"body":"So I think we, we need those"},{"startTime":1528.854,"endTime":1531.224,"body":"slogans, but we need more than that."},{"startTime":1532.981,"endTime":1535.981,"body":"So we need to make it relevant"},{"startTime":1532.981,"endTime":1535.981,"body":"to people's daily lives."},{"startTime":1538.094,"endTime":1539.244,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1539.324,"endTime":1542.914,"body":"And so part of that is yes, because"},{"startTime":1539.324,"endTime":1542.914,"body":"look, if it's not relevant to my"},{"startTime":1570.354,"endTime":1572.2240000000002,"body":"daily life and you're telling me that."},{"startTime":1572.784,"endTime":1575.564,"body":"Or I understand that this is going"},{"startTime":1572.784,"endTime":1575.564,"body":"to make things more expensive or"},{"startTime":1575.574,"endTime":1579.684,"body":"more difficult, or I'm not going to"},{"startTime":1575.574,"endTime":1579.684,"body":"have the things that I have today."},{"startTime":1580.124,"endTime":1582.2740000000001,"body":"Yeah, you've got to show that"},{"startTime":1580.124,"endTime":1582.2740000000001,"body":"it's relevant to my daily life"},{"startTime":1582.284,"endTime":1583.364,"body":"if I'm going to do those things."},{"startTime":1583.384,"endTime":1585.9740000000002,"body":"The polar bear over there is not enough."},{"startTime":1586.548,"endTime":1589.9080000000001,"body":"There's lots and lots of research"},{"startTime":1586.548,"endTime":1589.9080000000001,"body":"that says that a more sustainable"},{"startTime":1589.9080000000001,"endTime":1593.343,"body":"life will be a healthier life,"},{"startTime":1589.9080000000001,"endTime":1593.343,"body":"and a happier life for people."},{"startTime":1593.7530000000002,"endTime":1598.393,"body":"there's lots of research says that"},{"startTime":1593.7530000000002,"endTime":1598.393,"body":"and I, you know, I believe that, but"},{"startTime":1598.393,"endTime":1601.373,"body":"people are used to a life with cars."},{"startTime":1601.383,"endTime":1605.659,"body":"They're used to a life with a high level"},{"startTime":1601.383,"endTime":1605.659,"body":"of consumption and telling people they"},{"startTime":1605.659,"endTime":1610.309,"body":"can't have those things, but they will"},{"startTime":1605.659,"endTime":1610.309,"body":"be happier, that doesn't sound right."},{"startTime":1610.3790000000001,"endTime":1613.669,"body":"I mean, obviously we know it"},{"startTime":1610.3790000000001,"endTime":1613.669,"body":"probably is right, but it doesn't"},{"startTime":1613.719,"endTime":1615.029,"body":"it doesn't sound right to people."},{"startTime":1615.039,"endTime":1616.569,"body":"So climate sounds like sacrifice."},{"startTime":1616.6290000000001,"endTime":1620.239,"body":"Climate action sounds like I'm"},{"startTime":1616.6290000000001,"endTime":1620.239,"body":"going to do less and people don't"},{"startTime":1620.239,"endTime":1622.179,"body":"like to do less as things are now."},{"startTime":1622.8590000000002,"endTime":1624.3990000000001,"body":"So yeah, we have to"},{"startTime":1622.8590000000002,"endTime":1624.3990000000001,"body":"show that it's relevant."},{"startTime":1624.839,"endTime":1627.519,"body":"Yes, we've got to show that"},{"startTime":1624.839,"endTime":1627.519,"body":"they'll be happier too."},{"startTime":1627.799,"endTime":1629.8690000000001,"body":"But people think that there's"},{"startTime":1627.799,"endTime":1629.8690000000001,"body":"a sacrifice inherent to it."},{"startTime":1629.8790000000001,"endTime":1632.209,"body":"You know, people think that a more"},{"startTime":1629.8790000000001,"endTime":1632.209,"body":"sustainable household cleaning"},{"startTime":1632.229,"endTime":1633.709,"body":"products is probably less effective."},{"startTime":1634.319,"endTime":1636.949,"body":"than the good old"},{"startTime":1634.319,"endTime":1636.949,"body":"fashioned horrible bleach."},{"startTime":1637.179,"endTime":1639.719,"body":"You know, when they get, when they"},{"startTime":1637.179,"endTime":1639.719,"body":"have a baby, and they start worrying"},{"startTime":1639.739,"endTime":1642.6490000000001,"body":"about, is it safe around my child,"},{"startTime":1639.739,"endTime":1642.6490000000001,"body":"then they're like, oh, maybe I'll"},{"startTime":1642.6490000000001,"endTime":1644.3990000000001,"body":"get some eco cleaning products."},{"startTime":1644.719,"endTime":1648.159,"body":"But there's a, even today, after"},{"startTime":1644.719,"endTime":1648.159,"body":"sort of 10, 15 years of Google"},{"startTime":1648.159,"endTime":1650.989,"body":"Art Method and Ecovore and other"},{"startTime":1648.159,"endTime":1650.989,"body":"brands like that, there's still a"},{"startTime":1650.989,"endTime":1653.569,"body":"lot of consumers have this, oh, is"},{"startTime":1650.989,"endTime":1653.569,"body":"it really going to clean properly,"},{"startTime":1653.569,"endTime":1656.269,"body":"or do I want some proper old bleach"},{"startTime":1653.569,"endTime":1656.269,"body":"that's really going to deal with it?"},{"startTime":1656.579,"endTime":1662.659,"body":"There is belief that climate action will"},{"startTime":1656.579,"endTime":1662.659,"body":"mean settling for less than I have now."},{"startTime":1662.799,"endTime":1663.1390000000001,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1663.799,"endTime":1664.8790000000001,"body":"And so we need to solve that."},{"startTime":1664.8790000000001,"endTime":1666.719,"body":"But God, we need to make it relevant."},{"startTime":1666.739,"endTime":1670.269,"body":"We need to show people like,"},{"startTime":1666.739,"endTime":1670.269,"body":"yeah, this problem is relevant"},{"startTime":1670.269,"endTime":1671.159,"body":"to your day to day life."},{"startTime":1671.269,"endTime":1674.016,"body":"Obama's speechwriter said, the"},{"startTime":1671.269,"endTime":1674.016,"body":"average American thinks about"},{"startTime":1674.056,"endTime":1675.516,"body":"politics for four minutes a week."},{"startTime":1676.0410000000002,"endTime":1678.771,"body":"I don't know if that was based on"},{"startTime":1676.0410000000002,"endTime":1678.771,"body":"research, or if it was just something,"},{"startTime":1679.101,"endTime":1682.441,"body":"you know, a bit of received wisdom,"},{"startTime":1679.101,"endTime":1682.441,"body":"but you know, I think that's probably"},{"startTime":1682.441,"endTime":1684.451,"body":"broadly true, and I think for"},{"startTime":1682.441,"endTime":1684.451,"body":"climate, it's like two minutes a week."},{"startTime":1684.8010000000002,"endTime":1687.371,"body":"And so, you know, people might be"},{"startTime":1684.8010000000002,"endTime":1687.371,"body":"concerned, but are they concerned on"},{"startTime":1687.371,"endTime":1690.111,"body":"the same level that what's going to"},{"startTime":1687.371,"endTime":1690.111,"body":"be on the table for dinner tomorrow?"},{"startTime":1690.7910000000002,"endTime":1692.5410000000002,"body":"God, I need to pick up"},{"startTime":1690.7910000000002,"endTime":1692.5410000000002,"body":"the kids from school."},{"startTime":1692.856,"endTime":1694.526,"body":"Aren't the energy bills"},{"startTime":1692.856,"endTime":1694.526,"body":"expensive right now?"},{"startTime":1694.546,"endTime":1697.9260000000002,"body":"I'm feeling the pinch, you know, all of"},{"startTime":1694.546,"endTime":1697.9260000000002,"body":"these different things, even before we"},{"startTime":1697.9360000000001,"endTime":1701.276,"body":"have this sort of last couple of years"},{"startTime":1697.9360000000001,"endTime":1701.276,"body":"of high level inflation and people's"},{"startTime":1701.296,"endTime":1703.636,"body":"movements, those are just more pressing."},{"startTime":1704.406,"endTime":1708.816,"body":"And so we need to bring things down to a"},{"startTime":1704.406,"endTime":1708.816,"body":"level and a scale, as well as framing them"},{"startTime":1708.816,"endTime":1714.2160000000001,"body":"differently, both in terms of the impacts,"},{"startTime":1708.816,"endTime":1714.2160000000001,"body":"but also the action that individuals feel"},{"startTime":1714.246,"endTime":1719.246,"body":"like is directly relevant to them, and"},{"startTime":1714.246,"endTime":1719.246,"body":"also a skill that they might have agency"},{"startTime":1719.766,"endTime":1722.016,"body":"to actually do something meaningful about."},{"startTime":1722.813,"endTime":1725.2530000000002,"body":"If we think of how we frame climate"},{"startTime":1722.813,"endTime":1725.2530000000002,"body":"change over the years to sort of"},{"startTime":1725.313,"endTime":1730.073,"body":"believe in and understand, maybe"},{"startTime":1725.313,"endTime":1730.073,"body":"understand came first and then"},{"startTime":1730.5330000000001,"endTime":1732.303,"body":"there was a sort of urgency thing."},{"startTime":1732.333,"endTime":1734.223,"body":"Gosh, we need people to"},{"startTime":1732.333,"endTime":1734.223,"body":"understand it's urgent."},{"startTime":1734.613,"endTime":1738.4930000000002,"body":"And there's been a sort of counter push"},{"startTime":1734.613,"endTime":1738.4930000000002,"body":"to that by we need climate positivity."},{"startTime":1738.5130000000001,"endTime":1742.633,"body":"We need to talk about what's good and"},{"startTime":1738.5130000000001,"endTime":1742.633,"body":"none of these things is the whole answer."},{"startTime":1742.633,"endTime":1744.343,"body":"In fact, all of them are only"},{"startTime":1742.633,"endTime":1744.343,"body":"a small part of the answer."},{"startTime":1744.343,"endTime":1747.373,"body":"We probably need to be negative"},{"startTime":1744.343,"endTime":1747.373,"body":"sometimes and positive other times."},{"startTime":1747.673,"endTime":1751.103,"body":"But all of the time, what"},{"startTime":1747.673,"endTime":1751.103,"body":"we have failed to do is say,"},{"startTime":1751.5030000000002,"endTime":1752.7830000000001,"body":"this is your day to day life."},{"startTime":1753.266,"endTime":1755.816,"body":"This is on a scale that you can"},{"startTime":1753.266,"endTime":1755.816,"body":"engage with both the problems and"},{"startTime":1755.816,"endTime":1758.496,"body":"the solutions, whether we're being"},{"startTime":1755.816,"endTime":1758.496,"body":"scary or whether we're being joyful"},{"startTime":1758.496,"endTime":1759.346,"body":"or whether we're trying to educate."},{"startTime":1759.896,"endTime":1763.736,"body":"And we know, we know that"},{"startTime":1759.896,"endTime":1763.736,"body":"education isn't enough."},{"startTime":1764.286,"endTime":1771.116,"body":"We know that belief that people's actions"},{"startTime":1764.286,"endTime":1771.116,"body":"are more likely to be driven by social"},{"startTime":1771.136,"endTime":1776.586,"body":"norms and the things around them than they"},{"startTime":1771.136,"endTime":1776.586,"body":"are to be driven by additional knowledge."},{"startTime":1777.146,"endTime":1779.7060000000001,"body":"So we need to look at"},{"startTime":1777.146,"endTime":1779.7060000000001,"body":"what are those norms."},{"startTime":1779.7160000000001,"endTime":1781.806,"body":"Look at those things that"},{"startTime":1779.7160000000001,"endTime":1781.806,"body":"are in your day to day life."},{"startTime":1782.006,"endTime":1784.736,"body":"Can we bring climate down to them?"},{"startTime":1785.1960000000001,"endTime":1789.496,"body":"And there's a whole body of research"},{"startTime":1785.1960000000001,"endTime":1789.496,"body":"by psychologists, by behavioral"},{"startTime":1789.496,"endTime":1793.226,"body":"change professionals, by cognitive"},{"startTime":1789.496,"endTime":1793.226,"body":"linguists that looks at exactly that."},{"startTime":1793.606,"endTime":1795.086,"body":"And it tends to be very specific."},{"startTime":1795.086,"endTime":1798.376,"body":"You know, it isn't necessarily easy"},{"startTime":1795.086,"endTime":1798.376,"body":"to go and apply those lessons straight"},{"startTime":1798.376,"endTime":1803.296,"body":"away into climate comms because academic"},{"startTime":1798.376,"endTime":1803.296,"body":"literature tends to be very specific."},{"startTime":1803.586,"endTime":1807.146,"body":"You know, we've looked at such and"},{"startTime":1803.586,"endTime":1807.146,"body":"such people in a specific country on a"},{"startTime":1807.146,"endTime":1812.616,"body":"very specific question, but there are"},{"startTime":1807.146,"endTime":1812.616,"body":"still actionable insights and things"},{"startTime":1812.616,"endTime":1816.786,"body":"that we can translate to help us bring"},{"startTime":1812.616,"endTime":1816.786,"body":"it down to people's day to day life."},{"startTime":1817.086,"endTime":1819.836,"body":"There's a bunch of work, you know,"},{"startTime":1817.086,"endTime":1819.836,"body":"we talked about or I talked about"},{"startTime":1819.846,"endTime":1822.1660000000002,"body":"some psychological distance earlier."},{"startTime":1822.526,"endTime":1825.366,"body":"And now there's some argument saying"},{"startTime":1822.526,"endTime":1825.366,"body":"that well psychological distance from"},{"startTime":1825.366,"endTime":1827.856,"body":"climate change might not be so far"},{"startTime":1825.366,"endTime":1827.856,"body":"off for some people, maybe because"},{"startTime":1827.856,"endTime":1828.746,"body":"we're beginning to feel the effects."},{"startTime":1829.1860000000001,"endTime":1832.2160000000001,"body":"But there's a whole literature"},{"startTime":1829.1860000000001,"endTime":1832.2160000000001,"body":"out there about how to reduce."},{"startTime":1832.846,"endTime":1834.876,"body":"psychological distance in communications."},{"startTime":1835.2160000000001,"endTime":1838.4160000000002,"body":"There's a whole literature out there"},{"startTime":1835.2160000000001,"endTime":1838.4160000000002,"body":"in terms of how to make something"},{"startTime":1838.4660000000001,"endTime":1841.6960000000001,"body":"socially normal so that people"},{"startTime":1838.4660000000001,"endTime":1841.6960000000001,"body":"are more likely to engage with it."},{"startTime":1841.9260000000002,"endTime":1845.596,"body":"And some of this is really simple"},{"startTime":1841.9260000000002,"endTime":1845.596,"body":"and can be applied directly."},{"startTime":1847.726,"endTime":1849.546,"body":"Let's take a very, very practical example."},{"startTime":1849.786,"endTime":1853.486,"body":"There was an experiment in"},{"startTime":1849.786,"endTime":1853.486,"body":"Stanford University, six,"},{"startTime":1853.486,"endTime":1854.536,"body":"seven, maybe eight years ago."},{"startTime":1854.986,"endTime":1857.856,"body":"And they were looking at ways to get"},{"startTime":1854.986,"endTime":1857.856,"body":"people to make more environmentally"},{"startTime":1857.856,"endTime":1859.046,"body":"food choices in their canteen."},{"startTime":1859.346,"endTime":1862.256,"body":"Pick, the plant based option,"},{"startTime":1859.346,"endTime":1862.256,"body":"not the meat based option."},{"startTime":1862.771,"endTime":1866.0710000000001,"body":"And if you put a poster up that"},{"startTime":1862.771,"endTime":1866.0710000000001,"body":"says, you know, near the food Oh,"},{"startTime":1866.0910000000001,"endTime":1868.8410000000001,"body":"it's better for the environment"},{"startTime":1866.0910000000001,"endTime":1868.8410000000001,"body":"to choose the plant based option."},{"startTime":1869.121,"endTime":1871.0710000000001,"body":"It doesn't really change what anyone does."},{"startTime":1871.3410000000001,"endTime":1872.761,"body":"And you can put loads of facts up there."},{"startTime":1873.141,"endTime":1874.881,"body":"And it might change a couple"},{"startTime":1873.141,"endTime":1874.881,"body":"of people, but it doesn't"},{"startTime":1874.891,"endTime":1876.001,"body":"have a really dramatic impact."},{"startTime":1876.431,"endTime":1879.411,"body":"If you put a poster up there that say"},{"startTime":1876.431,"endTime":1879.411,"body":"more and more people in this canteen"},{"startTime":1879.981,"endTime":1881.521,"body":"are choosing a part based option."},{"startTime":1882.6380000000001,"endTime":1884.028,"body":"And then you can say because"},{"startTime":1882.6380000000001,"endTime":1884.028,"body":"of the environment, and"},{"startTime":1884.048,"endTime":1886.608,"body":"things, that drives a change."},{"startTime":1886.6380000000001,"endTime":1889.008,"body":"'cause people are, oh, people"},{"startTime":1886.6380000000001,"endTime":1889.008,"body":"like me are doing this thing."},{"startTime":1889.278,"endTime":1892.488,"body":"People like me are concerned about this"},{"startTime":1889.278,"endTime":1892.488,"body":"thing, so I should be concerned about"},{"startTime":1892.488,"endTime":1893.8680000000002,"body":"this thing, so I should do this thing."},{"startTime":1894.558,"endTime":1897.018,"body":"It takes it down to a level,"},{"startTime":1894.558,"endTime":1897.018,"body":"well, I'm not fighting climate"},{"startTime":1897.018,"endTime":1901.1580000000001,"body":"change when I eat this steak or"},{"startTime":1897.018,"endTime":1901.1580000000001,"body":"this, you know, cauliflower steak."},{"startTime":1901.218,"endTime":1905.144,"body":"I'm not personally, that that's"},{"startTime":1901.218,"endTime":1905.144,"body":"far away, but if people like me"},{"startTime":1905.144,"endTime":1907.104,"body":"are doing it more and more of them."},{"startTime":1907.654,"endTime":1909.5040000000001,"body":"Then I, maybe I should do that too."},{"startTime":1909.794,"endTime":1913.544,"body":"Cos whenever we're not sure, you know,"},{"startTime":1909.794,"endTime":1913.544,"body":"whenever we're in a social situation where"},{"startTime":1913.544,"endTime":1915.814,"body":"you're not really sure what we should"},{"startTime":1913.544,"endTime":1915.814,"body":"be doing, which is a lot of the time,"},{"startTime":1915.824,"endTime":1920.294,"body":"really, we look to those norms, we look"},{"startTime":1915.824,"endTime":1920.294,"body":"to what others around us are doing, you"},{"startTime":1920.294,"endTime":1923.934,"body":"know, when, when we walk into a library,"},{"startTime":1920.294,"endTime":1923.934,"body":"we don't need to be told to be quiet,"},{"startTime":1924.0040000000001,"endTime":1927.9740000000002,"body":"we know we should be quiet, because"},{"startTime":1924.0040000000001,"endTime":1927.9740000000002,"body":"it's a social norm, and so much of the"},{"startTime":1927.9740000000002,"endTime":1931.714,"body":"time, we fall back on those norms, and"},{"startTime":1927.9740000000002,"endTime":1931.714,"body":"as communicators, we can tap into them."},{"startTime":1932.2340000000002,"endTime":1935.7640000000001,"body":"You know, and we could do that around"},{"startTime":1932.2340000000002,"endTime":1935.7640000000001,"body":"climate, but instead, we've got"},{"startTime":1935.7640000000001,"endTime":1939.7340000000002,"body":"climate that's, climate action's pretty"},{"startTime":1935.7640000000001,"endTime":1939.7340000000002,"body":"unnormal, you know, who's doing it?"},{"startTime":1939.7640000000001,"endTime":1944.694,"body":"It's like Leonardo DiCaprio and Al Gore"},{"startTime":1939.7640000000001,"endTime":1944.694,"body":"and Greta Thunberg, and those people"},{"startTime":1944.704,"endTime":1949.624,"body":"might be admirable, I'm not saying,"},{"startTime":1944.704,"endTime":1949.624,"body":"you know, but they're not, like, day"},{"startTime":1949.804,"endTime":1950.9840000000002,"body":"to day relatable for most people."},{"startTime":1951.4840000000002,"endTime":1953.564,"body":"They're not setting a"},{"startTime":1951.4840000000002,"endTime":1953.564,"body":"norm for most people."},{"startTime":1954.204,"endTime":1957.424,"body":"So yeah, there's, there's, there's"},{"startTime":1954.204,"endTime":1957.424,"body":"a whole literature for bringing"},{"startTime":1957.434,"endTime":1961.334,"body":"it down, putting it in people's"},{"startTime":1957.434,"endTime":1961.334,"body":"personal lives, and it's not easy."},{"startTime":1961.739,"endTime":1962.579,"body":"But it is there."},{"startTime":1962.829,"endTime":1964.169,"body":"And so this is sort of what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1964.189,"endTime":1967.829,"body":"We need to, climate communicators need"},{"startTime":1964.189,"endTime":1967.829,"body":"to try harder and read that stuff."},{"startTime":1968.766,"endTime":1974.987,"body":"So, giving people practical examples"},{"startTime":1968.766,"endTime":1974.987,"body":"like it's going to affect the price and"},{"startTime":1974.987,"endTime":1980.637,"body":"quality of your beer or your wine or"},{"startTime":1974.987,"endTime":1980.637,"body":"your coffee or your olive oil or any of"},{"startTime":1980.6470000000002,"endTime":1982.127,"body":"these things that you use day to day."},{"startTime":1983.596,"endTime":1984.286,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1984.306,"endTime":1988.536,"body":"And I mean, it's tricky because climate"},{"startTime":1984.306,"endTime":1988.536,"body":"change is huge and those things are small."},{"startTime":1988.906,"endTime":1992.116,"body":"And so the temptation is to"},{"startTime":1988.906,"endTime":1992.116,"body":"do sort of big communications."},{"startTime":1992.646,"endTime":1993.546,"body":"This is a global issue."},{"startTime":1993.556,"endTime":1994.346,"body":"We need global solutions."},{"startTime":1994.346,"endTime":1994.866,"body":"And we do."},{"startTime":1994.866,"endTime":1995.506,"body":"And it is."},{"startTime":1996.036,"endTime":1998.876,"body":"But, if we're going to talk to"},{"startTime":1996.036,"endTime":1998.876,"body":"people, then communicators have to get"},{"startTime":1998.896,"endTime":2000.296,"body":"specific and they have to try it out."},{"startTime":2000.586,"endTime":2002.1660000000002,"body":"What is this audience member into?"},{"startTime":2002.4460000000001,"endTime":2006.536,"body":"There was a study, I think it was"},{"startTime":2002.4460000000001,"endTime":2006.536,"body":"in the US, looking at birds, bird"},{"startTime":2006.536,"endTime":2010.296,"body":"watchers, and if you see this local"},{"startTime":2006.536,"endTime":2010.296,"body":"bird, this one that you're used to"},{"startTime":2010.326,"endTime":2012.286,"body":"seeing is going to be in danger."},{"startTime":2012.386,"endTime":2015.106,"body":"There's going to be fewer of"},{"startTime":2012.386,"endTime":2015.106,"body":"those in the next 10 years."},{"startTime":2015.596,"endTime":2020.136,"body":"That hits people way harder and then"},{"startTime":2015.596,"endTime":2020.136,"body":"changes their opinion and changes their"},{"startTime":2020.366,"endTime":2025.616,"body":"sort of stated preparedness to act far"},{"startTime":2020.366,"endTime":2025.616,"body":"more than the global big picture stuff."},{"startTime":2025.9160000000002,"endTime":2026.9560000000001,"body":"Because it's relatable, it's right there."},{"startTime":2027.266,"endTime":2029.2630000000001,"body":"And yeah, chocolate could"},{"startTime":2027.266,"endTime":2029.2630000000001,"body":"become unaffordable."},{"startTime":2029.333,"endTime":2031.413,"body":"Coffee could become"},{"startTime":2029.333,"endTime":2031.413,"body":"unaffordable for most people."},{"startTime":2031.433,"endTime":2034.653,"body":"These could become niche,"},{"startTime":2031.433,"endTime":2034.653,"body":"speckless products."},{"startTime":2035.133,"endTime":2037.113,"body":"And these are things that"},{"startTime":2035.133,"endTime":2037.113,"body":"people do care about."},{"startTime":2037.5030000000002,"endTime":2041.133,"body":"And there's, there are other ways"},{"startTime":2037.5030000000002,"endTime":2041.133,"body":"that are, you know, when the Pope"},{"startTime":2041.383,"endTime":2046.2630000000001,"body":"talked about climate change, he"},{"startTime":2041.383,"endTime":2046.2630000000001,"body":"tapped into Christian sort of symbols"},{"startTime":2046.2630000000001,"endTime":2047.853,"body":"and language around climate change."},{"startTime":2048.183,"endTime":2051.753,"body":"The concept of Christian stewardship,"},{"startTime":2048.183,"endTime":2051.753,"body":"the idea, I'm not a Christian and my"},{"startTime":2051.753,"endTime":2053.323,"body":"Bible reading is a long time behind me."},{"startTime":2053.323,"endTime":2060.003,"body":"So there's an idea of stewardship in, in"},{"startTime":2053.323,"endTime":2060.003,"body":"Christianity, the idea that sort of God"},{"startTime":2060.003,"endTime":2064.9429999999998,"body":"gave Christians the earth to look after,"},{"startTime":2060.003,"endTime":2064.9429999999998,"body":"to have a sense of responsibility for."},{"startTime":2065.383,"endTime":2068.199,"body":"And the Pope was able to"},{"startTime":2065.383,"endTime":2068.199,"body":"tap into that language."},{"startTime":2068.469,"endTime":2073.049,"body":"And sure enough, you sort of survey people"},{"startTime":2068.469,"endTime":2073.049,"body":"before and after that speech who are"},{"startTime":2073.049,"endTime":2076.159,"body":"in that catholic community, they cared."},{"startTime":2076.159,"endTime":2079.7490000000003,"body":"And that wasn't because necessarily it's"},{"startTime":2076.159,"endTime":2079.7490000000003,"body":"going to be your direct personal life."},{"startTime":2080.224,"endTime":2083.244,"body":"But it was made relevant through"},{"startTime":2080.224,"endTime":2083.244,"body":"being framed in a way that was"},{"startTime":2083.244,"endTime":2084.6040000000003,"body":"deeply relevant to them personally."},{"startTime":2084.614,"endTime":2087.024,"body":"It was a way that they, it was to"},{"startTime":2084.614,"endTime":2087.024,"body":"do with their outlook on the world."},{"startTime":2087.204,"endTime":2089.8740000000003,"body":"And so there is stuff, absolutely,"},{"startTime":2087.204,"endTime":2089.8740000000003,"body":"absolutely, you know, we need to talk"},{"startTime":2089.8740000000003,"endTime":2093.334,"body":"to people about your coffee, your"},{"startTime":2089.8740000000003,"endTime":2093.334,"body":"beer, your, your day to day products"},{"startTime":2093.384,"endTime":2096.784,"body":"that you consume are going to be"},{"startTime":2093.384,"endTime":2096.784,"body":"worse, more expensive, harder to get."},{"startTime":2097.204,"endTime":2100.384,"body":"But there's also just fundamentally"},{"startTime":2097.204,"endTime":2100.384,"body":"framing things through people's"},{"startTime":2100.564,"endTime":2103.564,"body":"worldviews or in ways that speak"},{"startTime":2100.564,"endTime":2103.564,"body":"to people's worldviews, rather"},{"startTime":2103.564,"endTime":2105.719,"body":"than, here's this big global issue."},{"startTime":2107.051,"endTime":2112.201,"body":"And do we need to change the"},{"startTime":2107.051,"endTime":2112.201,"body":"language we use when we're talking"},{"startTime":2112.201,"endTime":2113.261,"body":"to people as well about climate?"},{"startTime":2115.039,"endTime":2118.569,"body":"Yes, I mean, there's been a big"},{"startTime":2115.039,"endTime":2118.569,"body":"focus on that, but in the wrong ways."},{"startTime":2118.809,"endTime":2123.189,"body":"So, 2019, I think it was, the Guardian"},{"startTime":2118.809,"endTime":2123.189,"body":"started talking about the climate crisis"},{"startTime":2123.559,"endTime":2127.859,"body":"instead of climate change, and that was"},{"startTime":2123.559,"endTime":2127.859,"body":"one of a number of, sort of, progressive"},{"startTime":2128.139,"endTime":2130.4790000000003,"body":"groups that, for all the right reasons,"},{"startTime":2128.139,"endTime":2130.4790000000003,"body":"said, we need to stop talking about"},{"startTime":2130.4790000000003,"endTime":2132.959,"body":"climate change and we need to start"},{"startTime":2130.4790000000003,"endTime":2132.959,"body":"talking about the climate crisis, because"},{"startTime":2132.959,"endTime":2135.129,"body":"it's urgent now and we need people to"},{"startTime":2132.959,"endTime":2135.129,"body":"understand that it's urgent and act on it."},{"startTime":2136.189,"endTime":2137.744,"body":"Now, And this is a great example."},{"startTime":2137.774,"endTime":2140.274,"body":"If people had gone and engaged with"},{"startTime":2137.774,"endTime":2140.274,"body":"the academic literature, they would"},{"startTime":2140.274,"endTime":2144.914,"body":"see that this sort of crisis framing"},{"startTime":2140.274,"endTime":2144.914,"body":"has been tried with other issues, and"},{"startTime":2144.914,"endTime":2146.364,"body":"it's at best a double edged sword."},{"startTime":2147.068,"endTime":2148.938,"body":"If you have a crisis, but it"},{"startTime":2147.068,"endTime":2148.938,"body":"keeps rolling on for several"},{"startTime":2148.938,"endTime":2150.5480000000002,"body":"years, I stop believing in it."},{"startTime":2150.911,"endTime":2153.721,"body":"Crisis is something that happens"},{"startTime":2150.911,"endTime":2153.721,"body":"and we solve it, or, if it"},{"startTime":2153.721,"endTime":2155.221,"body":"keeps going, is it a crisis?"},{"startTime":2155.611,"endTime":2156.741,"body":"Two, it can be very off putting."},{"startTime":2156.891,"endTime":2159.926,"body":"You know, if something is too negative,"},{"startTime":2156.891,"endTime":2159.926,"body":"and you're not giving me a solution"},{"startTime":2159.966,"endTime":2163.726,"body":"pretty easily, pretty, maybe I just"},{"startTime":2159.966,"endTime":2163.726,"body":"don't engage with the thing at all."},{"startTime":2164.036,"endTime":2168.0660000000003,"body":"There have been various efforts to"},{"startTime":2164.036,"endTime":2168.0660000000003,"body":"reform the language, but they've"},{"startTime":2168.0660000000003,"endTime":2171.896,"body":"been informed by what, you know,"},{"startTime":2168.0660000000003,"endTime":2171.896,"body":"calling it a climate crisis went down"},{"startTime":2171.916,"endTime":2173.126,"body":"really, really well with progressives."},{"startTime":2173.496,"endTime":2175.776,"body":"Yeah, now people are going to get how"},{"startTime":2173.496,"endTime":2175.776,"body":"urgent this is, now we're going to see"},{"startTime":2175.776,"endTime":2178.976,"body":"the change, but there was no evidence"},{"startTime":2175.776,"endTime":2178.976,"body":"really that that was a good move."},{"startTime":2178.976,"endTime":2182.126,"body":"And I think lo and behold, you know,"},{"startTime":2178.976,"endTime":2182.126,"body":"within a couple of years there had been"},{"startTime":2182.126,"endTime":2185.5860000000002,"body":"studies that showed it wasn't a successful"},{"startTime":2182.126,"endTime":2185.5860000000002,"body":"reframe, like that reframing hadn't done"},{"startTime":2185.5860000000002,"endTime":2187.426,"body":"anything to shift people's thinking."},{"startTime":2187.881,"endTime":2193.341,"body":"And in common with other attempts to"},{"startTime":2187.881,"endTime":2193.341,"body":"use crisis framing to solve issues."},{"startTime":2193.631,"endTime":2195.871,"body":"And so we absolutely need to"},{"startTime":2193.631,"endTime":2195.871,"body":"look at the language that we use."},{"startTime":2195.931,"endTime":2197.9210000000003,"body":"We need to look at imagery,"},{"startTime":2195.931,"endTime":2197.9210000000003,"body":"we the language we use."},{"startTime":2197.9210000000003,"endTime":2200.851,"body":"We need to look at, the sort"},{"startTime":2197.9210000000003,"endTime":2200.851,"body":"of fundamental semiotic of"},{"startTime":2200.851,"endTime":2201.811,"body":"how we frame the whole thing."},{"startTime":2201.811,"endTime":2202.931,"body":"So who's delivering the message?"},{"startTime":2203.581,"endTime":2206.451,"body":"But we have to, 1) understand"},{"startTime":2203.581,"endTime":2206.451,"body":"our audience first."},{"startTime":2206.6710000000003,"endTime":2208.911,"body":"2) get specific about what it is"},{"startTime":2206.6710000000003,"endTime":2208.911,"body":"we actually want to talk to them"},{"startTime":2208.911,"endTime":2211.511,"body":"about, because it probably isn't the"},{"startTime":2208.911,"endTime":2211.511,"body":"whole of climate change all at once."},{"startTime":2212.2110000000002,"endTime":2216.661,"body":"And then 3) when we've got that in mind,"},{"startTime":2212.2110000000002,"endTime":2216.661,"body":"then go and find evidence based approaches"},{"startTime":2216.661,"endTime":2220.4210000000003,"body":"to do that, whether that's from marketing"},{"startTime":2216.661,"endTime":2220.4210000000003,"body":"and branding, whether that's from academia"},{"startTime":2220.831,"endTime":2224.121,"body":"but you've only got to find those kind of"},{"startTime":2220.831,"endTime":2224.121,"body":"solutions once you've said, okay, who is"},{"startTime":2224.131,"endTime":2227.761,"body":"the actual audience and what specifically"},{"startTime":2224.131,"endTime":2227.761,"body":"do I need to talk to them about?"},{"startTime":2227.761,"endTime":2230.986,"body":"And ideally, what specifically do I need"},{"startTime":2227.761,"endTime":2230.986,"body":"them to do differently, as I haven't"},{"startTime":2230.986,"endTime":2234.366,"body":"seen this come because I'd say another"},{"startTime":2230.986,"endTime":2234.366,"body":"part of it's just, you know, we're just"},{"startTime":2234.366,"endTime":2236.256,"body":"pushing angst out into the world, right?"},{"startTime":2236.256,"endTime":2239.526,"body":"Even the people who are getting"},{"startTime":2236.256,"endTime":2239.526,"body":"engaged, an awful lot of climate comms"},{"startTime":2239.5460000000003,"endTime":2246.233,"body":"is just very anxiety inducing,  give"},{"startTime":2239.5460000000003,"endTime":2246.233,"body":"people something to do or, or, or"},{"startTime":2246.233,"endTime":2247.973,"body":"don't make them feel anxious probably."},{"startTime":2247.973,"endTime":2250.063,"body":"Otherwise, you're just"},{"startTime":2247.973,"endTime":2250.063,"body":"gonna create disengagement."},{"startTime":2250.889,"endTime":2254.899,"body":","},{"startTime":2250.889,"endTime":2254.899,"body":"Yeah, no, that's one of the reasons I"},{"startTime":2254.899,"endTime":2259.2690000000002,"body":"as I say, there's a huge amount of news"},{"startTime":2254.899,"endTime":2259.2690000000002,"body":"out there about climate and 99% of it"},{"startTime":2259.2690000000002,"endTime":2265.839,"body":"or more is negative or scary or tragic"},{"startTime":2259.2690000000002,"endTime":2265.839,"body":"as we saw last year in Valencia with the"},{"startTime":2265.839,"endTime":2267.819,"body":"floods or, you know, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":2268.179,"endTime":2271.2290000000003,"body":"So I wanted to create a space where I"},{"startTime":2268.179,"endTime":2271.2290000000003,"body":"was highlighting some of the good work"},{"startTime":2271.2690000000002,"endTime":2273.179,"body":"that's been doing in the space so that."},{"startTime":2273.6440000000002,"endTime":2278.774,"body":"A, I could educate people on strategies"},{"startTime":2273.6440000000002,"endTime":2278.774,"body":"that are working, hopefully inspire"},{"startTime":2278.774,"endTime":2282.8540000000003,"body":"some more people to act, and then"},{"startTime":2278.774,"endTime":2282.8540000000003,"body":"B, rather selfishly, I was making"},{"startTime":2282.8540000000003,"endTime":2285.8740000000003,"body":"sure that I was hearing at least one"},{"startTime":2282.8540000000003,"endTime":2285.8740000000003,"body":"good news story in the climate space"},{"startTime":2285.8740000000003,"endTime":2289.254,"body":"every week, so I wasn't ending up in"},{"startTime":2285.8740000000003,"endTime":2289.254,"body":"a fetal position on the floor crying"},{"startTime":2289.254,"endTime":2292.204,"body":"my eyes out, so yeah, no, I can see."},{"startTime":2292.704,"endTime":2293.8940000000002,"body":"I can see that's important."},{"startTime":2294.391,"endTime":2299.011,"body":"Listen, Ollie, for, for people who are"},{"startTime":2294.391,"endTime":2299.011,"body":"listening, you know, maybe aspiring"},{"startTime":2299.041,"endTime":2303.231,"body":"communicators, what's the kind of"},{"startTime":2299.041,"endTime":2303.231,"body":"top piece of advice you could give"},{"startTime":2303.511,"endTime":2306.181,"body":"to them so that they could make"},{"startTime":2303.511,"endTime":2306.181,"body":"a difference in climate action?"},{"startTime":2308.435,"endTime":2312.668,"body":"I mean, take a step back and understand"},{"startTime":2308.435,"endTime":2312.668,"body":"that if you want to talk about these"},{"startTime":2312.668,"endTime":2314.5480000000002,"body":"things, you're probably not the audience."},{"startTime":2314.928,"endTime":2316.248,"body":"I mean, you're definitely"},{"startTime":2314.928,"endTime":2316.248,"body":"not the audience."},{"startTime":2317.198,"endTime":2321.0480000000002,"body":"It's true for all sorts of issues,"},{"startTime":2317.198,"endTime":2321.0480000000002,"body":"but you're far closer to it than"},{"startTime":2321.0480000000002,"endTime":2322.888,"body":"the audience is or ever will be."},{"startTime":2323.168,"endTime":2325.218,"body":"So the first thing you need to do"},{"startTime":2323.168,"endTime":2325.218,"body":"is take a step back and actually"},{"startTime":2325.218,"endTime":2327.308,"body":"honestly say, who is the audience?"},{"startTime":2327.738,"endTime":2329.978,"body":"Who do I actually need"},{"startTime":2327.738,"endTime":2329.978,"body":"to engage and persuade?"},{"startTime":2330.678,"endTime":2332.098,"body":"Because it's not, it's not you."},{"startTime":2332.098,"endTime":2336.2580000000003,"body":"And you have to accept that the thing"},{"startTime":2332.098,"endTime":2336.2580000000003,"body":"that most might be most effective is not"},{"startTime":2336.268,"endTime":2339.318,"body":"the thing that you would actually like"},{"startTime":2336.268,"endTime":2339.318,"body":"personally to put out into the world."},{"startTime":2339.925,"endTime":2342.815,"body":"Obviously, don't compromise your values."},{"startTime":2342.815,"endTime":2346.635,"body":"Don't say stuff that you think is"},{"startTime":2342.815,"endTime":2346.635,"body":"bad, but you've got to take that"},{"startTime":2346.635,"endTime":2349.875,"body":"step back and be open to the fact"},{"startTime":2346.635,"endTime":2349.875,"body":"that the solution might not be one"},{"startTime":2349.875,"endTime":2351.1150000000002,"body":"that you find personally appealing."},{"startTime":2351.695,"endTime":2355.065,"body":"And then you've got to"},{"startTime":2351.695,"endTime":2355.065,"body":"go and do the research."},{"startTime":2355.255,"endTime":2356.535,"body":"You've got to go and read."},{"startTime":2357.4700000000003,"endTime":2360.75,"body":"boring some of it because you've got"},{"startTime":2357.4700000000003,"endTime":2360.75,"body":"to filter through a bunch of academic"},{"startTime":2360.75,"endTime":2366.71,"body":"papers or a bunch of books, but also"},{"startTime":2360.75,"endTime":2366.71,"body":"just be honest, apply common sense in a"},{"startTime":2366.71,"endTime":2370.6,"body":"way that we seem not to be able to do."},{"startTime":2370.6,"endTime":2374.73,"body":"We all know if we're in a restaurant or"},{"startTime":2370.6,"endTime":2374.73,"body":"in a pub or in a supermarket, the kind"},{"startTime":2374.73,"endTime":2378.89,"body":"of things we have to say to persuade"},{"startTime":2374.73,"endTime":2378.89,"body":"people, we all know how to do that."},{"startTime":2379.27,"endTime":2381.38,"body":"Persuade people we don't like"},{"startTime":2379.27,"endTime":2381.38,"body":"or we don't get along with."},{"startTime":2382.315,"endTime":2387.0950000000003,"body":"I mean, we know that we, we sort of, I"},{"startTime":2382.315,"endTime":2387.0950000000003,"body":"don't want to say compromise our truth,"},{"startTime":2387.105,"endTime":2391.155,"body":"that sounds bigger, but we know that we"},{"startTime":2387.105,"endTime":2391.155,"body":"put an edited version of our message to"},{"startTime":2391.155,"endTime":2396.755,"body":"those people out in the real world to get"},{"startTime":2391.155,"endTime":2396.755,"body":"what we want, and we need to do that as"},{"startTime":2396.755,"endTime":2401.675,"body":"a climate movement, and as a progressive"},{"startTime":2396.755,"endTime":2401.675,"body":"movement more generally, probably so"},{"startTime":2401.685,"endTime":2405.62,"body":"it's, yeah, my one piece of it is take a"},{"startTime":2401.685,"endTime":2405.62,"body":"step back, Understand who it actually is"},{"startTime":2405.62,"endTime":2409.26,"body":"and then go read about it, go understand"},{"startTime":2405.62,"endTime":2409.26,"body":"it, go talk to some of those people, go"},{"startTime":2409.35,"endTime":2413.13,"body":"engage with the media that they engage"},{"startTime":2409.35,"endTime":2413.13,"body":"with, and think about how you can put"},{"startTime":2413.41,"endTime":2419.5,"body":"your message in their terms because if"},{"startTime":2413.41,"endTime":2419.5,"body":"we don't do that, I, you'll, you want to"},{"startTime":2419.5,"endTime":2422.51,"body":"hear good news stories, and the good news"},{"startTime":2419.5,"endTime":2422.51,"body":"is we can do this, there's evidence out"},{"startTime":2422.51,"endTime":2424.94,"body":"there for how to do it, but if we don't"},{"startTime":2422.51,"endTime":2424.94,"body":"do that, we don't have a good news story,"},{"startTime":2425.2400000000002,"endTime":2426.76,"body":"we've got a, we've got a bad news story,"},{"startTime":2428.5280000000002,"endTime":2433.178,"body":"Left field question, Ollie, if you could"},{"startTime":2428.5280000000002,"endTime":2433.178,"body":"have any person or character, alive"},{"startTime":2433.178,"endTime":2439.628,"body":"or dead, real or fictional, as kind of"},{"startTime":2433.178,"endTime":2439.628,"body":"a, an example for successful climate"},{"startTime":2439.658,"endTime":2441.948,"body":"communication, who would it be and why?"},{"startTime":2443.896,"endTime":2447.606,"body":"that is, so what, well, so, I"},{"startTime":2443.896,"endTime":2447.606,"body":"mean, if I could have someone be"},{"startTime":2447.606,"endTime":2451.826,"body":"a climate communicator, I mean,"},{"startTime":2447.606,"endTime":2451.826,"body":"I might pick Churchill, actually."},{"startTime":2452.226,"endTime":2454.676,"body":"Like, hugely controversial"},{"startTime":2452.226,"endTime":2454.676,"body":"figure in many ways."},{"startTime":2454.966,"endTime":2457.236,"body":"Not a nice man, almost certainly."},{"startTime":2457.666,"endTime":2461.686,"body":"You know, I mean, pretty dark history"},{"startTime":2457.666,"endTime":2461.686,"body":"on the colonialism side of things."},{"startTime":2462.376,"endTime":2467.7960000000003,"body":"But hugely effective communicator to"},{"startTime":2462.376,"endTime":2467.7960000000003,"body":"a mass audience in a time of crisis."},{"startTime":2468.826,"endTime":2472.016,"body":"And, you know, that's the, that's"},{"startTime":2468.826,"endTime":2472.016,"body":"the kind of thing we actually"},{"startTime":2472.016,"endTime":2476.556,"body":"created a brand for an environmental"},{"startTime":2472.016,"endTime":2476.556,"body":"sort of movement to try and pass"},{"startTime":2476.556,"endTime":2478.076,"body":"some environmental laws in the UK."},{"startTime":2478.406,"endTime":2482.486,"body":"And one of the things we looked at was"},{"startTime":2478.406,"endTime":2482.486,"body":"Churchill's speeches and they ended"},{"startTime":2482.486,"endTime":2483.746,"body":"up using the graphics we created."},{"startTime":2483.746,"endTime":2486.476,"body":"They didn't end up using that much of"},{"startTime":2483.746,"endTime":2486.476,"body":"that language, but I genuinely think"},{"startTime":2486.5660000000003,"endTime":2487.426,"body":"it would have been very effective."},{"startTime":2488.071,"endTime":2490.1710000000003,"body":"Because it's language of struggle."},{"startTime":2490.1710000000003,"endTime":2493.721,"body":"It's language of like things aren't"},{"startTime":2490.1710000000003,"endTime":2493.721,"body":"necessarily gonna be great right now,"},{"startTime":2493.831,"endTime":2494.821,"body":"but they are going to get better."},{"startTime":2495.161,"endTime":2496.331,"body":"And we have to do this thing."},{"startTime":2496.341,"endTime":2497.081,"body":"And it's important."},{"startTime":2497.781,"endTime":2502.871,"body":"It's language of pragmatic hope,"},{"startTime":2497.781,"endTime":2502.871,"body":"language of sort of determination."},{"startTime":2503.251,"endTime":2507.321,"body":"And I think we could definitely use all"},{"startTime":2503.251,"endTime":2507.321,"body":"of those things in the climate message."},{"startTime":2507.321,"endTime":2510.881,"body":"And we could use that, you know,"},{"startTime":2507.321,"endTime":2510.881,"body":"conservative frame that he brought, not"},{"startTime":2510.881,"endTime":2512.391,"body":"saying he's a good person or anything."},{"startTime":2512.391,"endTime":2513.151,"body":"Or was a good person."},{"startTime":2513.151,"endTime":2514.326,"body":"Obviously, he's still not."},{"startTime":2514.501,"endTime":2517.141,"body":"But, you know, I think he would have"},{"startTime":2514.501,"endTime":2517.141,"body":"been, he would have been a brilliant"},{"startTime":2517.371,"endTime":2519.881,"body":"climate communicator because of those"},{"startTime":2517.371,"endTime":2519.881,"body":"traits and because of that ability"},{"startTime":2519.881,"endTime":2522.651,"body":"to engage people around tough calls."},{"startTime":2524.003,"endTime":2525.043,"body":"Yeah, very true."},{"startTime":2525.123,"endTime":2525.503,"body":"Very true."},{"startTime":2526.1330000000003,"endTime":2527.6530000000002,"body":"have to fight them on"},{"startTime":2526.1330000000003,"endTime":2527.6530000000002,"body":"the beaches, apparently."},{"startTime":2527.6530000000002,"endTime":2528.223,"body":"So, okay."},{"startTime":2528.223,"endTime":2528.473,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":2529.013,"endTime":2529.243,"body":"Fight them"},{"startTime":2529.243,"endTime":2531.853,"body":"them for the beaches,"},{"startTime":2529.243,"endTime":2531.853,"body":"otherwise they'll wash away."},{"startTime":2531.853,"endTime":2532.783,"body":"Fair point."},{"startTime":2532.804,"endTime":2533.444,"body":"Fair point."},{"startTime":2533.554,"endTime":2533.794,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2534.444,"endTime":2537.114,"body":"We're coming towards the end of"},{"startTime":2534.444,"endTime":2537.114,"body":"the podcast now, Ollie, is there"},{"startTime":2537.134,"endTime":2540.654,"body":"any question I didn't ask that"},{"startTime":2537.134,"endTime":2540.654,"body":"you wish I did or any aspect of"},{"startTime":2540.654,"endTime":2542.494,"body":"this, we haven't touched on that."},{"startTime":2542.494,"endTime":2544.1240000000003,"body":"You think it's important"},{"startTime":2542.494,"endTime":2544.1240000000003,"body":"for people to be aware of?"},{"startTime":2545.373,"endTime":2548.233,"body":"I think it's important that people"},{"startTime":2545.373,"endTime":2548.233,"body":"realise this is a self inflicted"},{"startTime":2548.373,"endTime":2550.213,"body":"failure of climate communications."},{"startTime":2550.503,"endTime":2554.893,"body":"You know, we have done this to"},{"startTime":2550.503,"endTime":2554.893,"body":"ourselves, probably through wishing"},{"startTime":2554.893,"endTime":2557.693,"body":"for the best and positive ideology."},{"startTime":2557.703,"endTime":2559.063,"body":"We have done this to ourselves."},{"startTime":2559.363,"endTime":2562.353,"body":"And obviously, making climate"},{"startTime":2559.363,"endTime":2562.353,"body":"communications better is not"},{"startTime":2562.6730000000002,"endTime":2563.733,"body":"going to solve everything."},{"startTime":2564.304,"endTime":2567.1040000000003,"body":"And there's sort of people in the"},{"startTime":2564.304,"endTime":2567.1040000000003,"body":"ad industry who think if we can"},{"startTime":2567.1040000000003,"endTime":2570.304,"body":"make ads sort of climate conscious,"},{"startTime":2567.1040000000003,"endTime":2570.304,"body":"that will change everything."},{"startTime":2570.304,"endTime":2573.869,"body":"And I don't have the ego to think, you"},{"startTime":2570.304,"endTime":2573.869,"body":"know, it's a small part of the solution."},{"startTime":2574.299,"endTime":2578.329,"body":"But, we've known about climate change"},{"startTime":2574.299,"endTime":2578.329,"body":"in one form or another since, you"},{"startTime":2578.329,"endTime":2581.609,"body":"know, I mean, latest, the fifties"},{"startTime":2578.329,"endTime":2581.609,"body":"and latest, the hard times, I guess,"},{"startTime":2581.839,"endTime":2583.119,"body":"the seventies to really, really know."},{"startTime":2583.569,"endTime":2585.5190000000002,"body":"And we've had an awful lot"},{"startTime":2583.569,"endTime":2585.5190000000002,"body":"of the technology since then."},{"startTime":2585.7490000000003,"endTime":2590.029,"body":"So I genuinely do think that there"},{"startTime":2585.7490000000003,"endTime":2590.029,"body":"is a, there is a need to persuade."},{"startTime":2590.764,"endTime":2593.424,"body":"You know, we're not gonna"},{"startTime":2590.764,"endTime":2593.424,"body":"we're inventing new tech."},{"startTime":2593.634,"endTime":2597.704,"body":"We're refining the science that"},{"startTime":2593.634,"endTime":2597.704,"body":"this is important and helpful"},{"startTime":2597.704,"endTime":2598.944,"body":"and useful, and we need it."},{"startTime":2599.614,"endTime":2605.134,"body":"But if we can't persuade the majority"},{"startTime":2599.614,"endTime":2605.134,"body":"of people that they need real change"},{"startTime":2605.214,"endTime":2610.594,"body":"really quite soon, none of that tech"},{"startTime":2605.214,"endTime":2610.594,"body":"is going to really matter that much."},{"startTime":2610.984,"endTime":2614.314,"body":"And so I think it is a people"},{"startTime":2610.984,"endTime":2614.314,"body":"problem, and the failures have"},{"startTime":2614.314,"endTime":2615.794,"body":"mostly been self inflicted."},{"startTime":2616.1240000000003,"endTime":2620.3740000000003,"body":"And so I would say, you know, if you"},{"startTime":2616.1240000000003,"endTime":2620.3740000000003,"body":"talk to people in any form about climate."},{"startTime":2620.884,"endTime":2623.134,"body":"Take a step back and say, am I"},{"startTime":2620.884,"endTime":2623.134,"body":"actually doing this the most effective"},{"startTime":2623.154,"endTime":2625.834,"body":"way possible, or am I doing this"},{"startTime":2623.154,"endTime":2625.834,"body":"in a way that's going to appeal to"},{"startTime":2625.834,"endTime":2627.414,"body":"other people who already like me?"},{"startTime":2627.934,"endTime":2630.794,"body":"Because, yeah, I do think it is self"},{"startTime":2627.934,"endTime":2630.794,"body":"inflicted, but for the right reasons."},{"startTime":2630.814,"endTime":2632.194,"body":"I don't want to get a"},{"startTime":2630.814,"endTime":2632.194,"body":"bunch of people angry."},{"startTime":2632.194,"endTime":2635.684,"body":"I'm not saying Climate UK is"},{"startTime":2632.194,"endTime":2635.684,"body":"bad or even bad at their jobs."},{"startTime":2635.984,"endTime":2638.244,"body":"And there's loads of people"},{"startTime":2635.984,"endTime":2638.244,"body":"out there doing good work, but"},{"startTime":2638.244,"endTime":2639.194,"body":"there's just not enough of it."},{"startTime":2639.8940000000002,"endTime":2641.664,"body":"It's not the norm, necessarily."},{"startTime":2642.772,"endTime":2646.922,"body":"Ollie, if people would like to know"},{"startTime":2642.772,"endTime":2646.922,"body":"more about yourself or any of the things"},{"startTime":2646.922,"endTime":2649.792,"body":"we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"startTime":2646.922,"endTime":2649.792,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"startTime":2651.4210000000003,"endTime":2654.451,"body":"So, there isn't a great deal on our"},{"startTime":2651.4210000000003,"endTime":2654.451,"body":"website because, as I said, for the last"},{"startTime":2654.451,"endTime":2657.341,"body":"four and a half years, we've really been"},{"startTime":2654.451,"endTime":2657.341,"body":"focused on just running our business."},{"startTime":2657.371,"endTime":2660.6910000000003,"body":"But there will, in the future, be more"},{"startTime":2657.371,"endTime":2660.6910000000003,"body":"or at least links from AmongEquals."},{"startTime":2661.501,"endTime":2661.561,"body":"co."},{"startTime":2662.091,"endTime":2663.9610000000002,"body":"You know, climate stuff, you"},{"startTime":2662.091,"endTime":2663.9610000000002,"body":"know, we do a lot of work with"},{"startTime":2663.9610000000002,"endTime":2665.2110000000002,"body":"startups and all kinds of work."},{"startTime":2665.7110000000002,"endTime":2667.971,"body":"Sustainability is just a"},{"startTime":2665.7110000000002,"endTime":2667.971,"body":"small area of our work."},{"startTime":2668.4210000000003,"endTime":2670.501,"body":"I will be posting more about"},{"startTime":2668.4210000000003,"endTime":2670.501,"body":"it on LinkedIn, but honestly, I"},{"startTime":2670.501,"endTime":2671.951,"body":"would say just go out and read."},{"startTime":2672.8540000000003,"endTime":2676.684,"body":"I have made part of my career"},{"startTime":2672.8540000000003,"endTime":2676.684,"body":"around translating the insights of"},{"startTime":2676.824,"endTime":2680.914,"body":"psychology and behaviour change into"},{"startTime":2676.824,"endTime":2680.914,"body":"communications and campaign stuff."},{"startTime":2681.6240000000003,"endTime":2683.344,"body":"But there's lots of"},{"startTime":2681.6240000000003,"endTime":2683.344,"body":"other people doing that."},{"startTime":2683.504,"endTime":2685.3740000000003,"body":"Go engage with the"},{"startTime":2683.504,"endTime":2685.3740000000003,"body":"original stuff, you know."},{"startTime":2686.164,"endTime":2690.469,"body":"The British, Psychological Association"},{"startTime":2686.164,"endTime":2690.469,"body":"puts out a newsletter every couple of"},{"startTime":2690.469,"endTime":2691.9990000000003,"body":"weeks, which is full of fascinating stuff."},{"startTime":2691.9990000000003,"endTime":2693.649,"body":"It's not always about climate,"},{"startTime":2691.9990000000003,"endTime":2693.649,"body":"it's about all kinds of stuff."},{"startTime":2694.549,"endTime":2699.329,"body":"There's all kinds of people out there"},{"startTime":2694.549,"endTime":2699.329,"body":"putting psychological and other forms of"},{"startTime":2699.359,"endTime":2701.089,"body":"research into more digestible formats."},{"startTime":2701.119,"endTime":2701.909,"body":"Go and engage with that."},{"startTime":2702.2290000000003,"endTime":2702.609,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":2702.849,"endTime":2703.339,"body":"Follow me."},{"startTime":2703.369,"endTime":2703.709,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2704.039,"endTime":2705.9990000000003,"body":"Send me a message if you want"},{"startTime":2704.039,"endTime":2705.9990000000003,"body":"to talk about any of this stuff."},{"startTime":2706.369,"endTime":2706.909,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2706.909,"endTime":2710.549,"body":"I find it fascinating, but there's"},{"startTime":2706.909,"endTime":2710.549,"body":"loads of content out there."},{"startTime":2710.959,"endTime":2712.849,"body":"It's just people need to"},{"startTime":2710.959,"endTime":2712.849,"body":"actually go and read it."},{"startTime":2713.099,"endTime":2715.719,"body":"And they don't currently"},{"startTime":2713.099,"endTime":2715.719,"body":"because it's boring."},{"startTime":2715.839,"endTime":2716.219,"body":"It's technical."},{"startTime":2716.219,"endTime":2717.459,"body":"It's just not something"},{"startTime":2716.219,"endTime":2717.459,"body":"they think to look at."},{"startTime":2717.509,"endTime":2718.109,"body":"So go do that."},{"startTime":2718.779,"endTime":2720.139,"body":"And then if you want to"},{"startTime":2718.779,"endTime":2720.139,"body":"come talk to me, sure."},{"startTime":2721.285,"endTime":2722.465,"body":"Ollie, that's been fascinating."},{"startTime":2722.585,"endTime":2724.225,"body":"Thanks a million for coming"},{"startTime":2722.585,"endTime":2724.225,"body":"on the podcast today."},{"startTime":2725.679,"endTime":2726.439,"body":"Thank you so much for having me, Tom."},{"startTime":2726.439,"endTime":2726.9790000000003,"body":"It's been a pleasure."},{"startTime":2727.939,"endTime":2729.809,"body":"Okay, we've come to the end of the show."},{"startTime":2730.529,"endTime":2731.639,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"startTime":2732.4990000000003,"endTime":2736.649,"body":"If you'd like to know more about the"},{"startTime":2732.4990000000003,"endTime":2736.649,"body":"Climate Confident podcast, feel free to"},{"startTime":2736.659,"endTime":2740.569,"body":"drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"startTime":2740.819,"endTime":2744.299,"body":"com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"startTime":2744.869,"endTime":2748.609,"body":"If you like the show, please don't"},{"startTime":2744.869,"endTime":2748.609,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"startTime":2748.629,"endTime":2753.109,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"startTime":2748.629,"endTime":2753.109,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"startTime":2753.739,"endTime":2756.699,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"startTime":2753.739,"endTime":2756.699,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"startTime":2756.899,"endTime":2759.429,"body":"It really does help new"},{"startTime":2756.899,"endTime":2759.429,"body":"people to find the show."},{"startTime":2760.5190000000002,"endTime":2760.969,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":2761.639,"endTime":2762.559,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}