{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":2.58,"endTime":6.88,"body":"- The UK decarbonized green, it's gonna take us off gas."},{"startTime":6.88,"endTime":9.32,"body":"Imagine the impact that's gonna have on the economy"},{"startTime":9.32,"endTime":13.36,"body":"where you no longer have huge fluctuations in gas prices,"},{"startTime":13.36,"endTime":17.02,"body":"going from super high prices to very low gas prices."},{"startTime":17.02,"endTime":19.2,"body":"Nobody knows what gas prices are gonna be next year,"},{"startTime":19.2,"endTime":20.12,"body":"for instance."},{"startTime":20.12,"endTime":21.7,"body":"How can a business plan?"},{"startTime":21.7,"endTime":25.66,"body":"If you take gas completely off the network,"},{"startTime":25.66,"endTime":29.32,"body":"the huge economic benefits for everybody,"},{"startTime":29.32,"endTime":31.44,"body":"that story hasn't been told yet."},{"startTime":34.02,"endTime":39.96,"body":"- Hi everyone, welcome to the Climate Confident Podcast."},{"startTime":39.96,"endTime":43.52,"body":"My name is Tom Raftery and with me on the show today,"},{"startTime":43.52,"endTime":45.32,"body":"I have my special guest, John."},{"startTime":45.32,"endTime":46.96,"body":"John, welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":46.96,"endTime":49.52,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"startTime":49.52,"endTime":50.86,"body":"- Yeah, thanks very much, Tom."},{"startTime":50.86,"endTime":52.52,"body":"So I'm John Sturman."},{"startTime":52.52,"endTime":56.12,"body":"I'm the managing director of NetApp in the UK."},{"startTime":56.12,"endTime":60.0,"body":"We're involved in delivering net zero as soon as possible,"},{"startTime":60.0,"endTime":62.48,"body":"in terms of what we're trying to do as a corporation,"},{"startTime":62.48,"endTime":65.52,"body":"and specifically in the UK,"},{"startTime":65.52,"endTime":68.32,"body":"looking to satisfy CP30,"},{"startTime":68.32,"endTime":71.96,"body":"as I'm sure we'll speak about later in the podcast."},{"startTime":71.96,"endTime":72.8,"body":"- Yep, absolutely."},{"startTime":72.8,"endTime":77.48,"body":"So for people, John, who are not familiar with NetPower,"},{"startTime":77.48,"endTime":79.88,"body":"give us a few top line numbers."},{"startTime":79.88,"endTime":81.32,"body":"Who is NetPower?"},{"startTime":81.32,"endTime":82.4,"body":"Who are your clients?"},{"startTime":82.4,"endTime":84.0,"body":"What do you do for them?"},{"startTime":84.0,"endTime":85.76,"body":"That kind of thing."},{"startTime":85.76,"endTime":89.38,"body":"- We're a global renewable energy developer."},{"startTime":89.38,"endTime":93.56,"body":"We originated out of Italy."},{"startTime":93.56,"endTime":97.62,"body":"So our operational headquarters, if you like, is in Milan."},{"startTime":97.62,"endTime":101.54,"body":"We're active in quite a number of geographies globally."},{"startTime":101.54,"endTime":104.96,"body":"So we've got activities in Italy."},{"startTime":104.96,"endTime":108.48,"body":"I went to the UK markets just over two years ago."},{"startTime":108.48,"endTime":112.92,"body":"We're active in the US, in Chile, in Kazakhstan,"},{"startTime":112.92,"endTime":115.36,"body":"in South Africa, Serbia,"},{"startTime":115.36,"endTime":119.52,"body":"so we are a true international renewable energy developer."},{"startTime":119.52,"endTime":122.32,"body":"We actually originated out of an IPP."},{"startTime":122.32,"endTime":124.72,"body":"We sold off the operating assets"},{"startTime":124.72,"endTime":126.56,"body":"of virtual renewable generators"},{"startTime":126.56,"endTime":128.32,"body":"and retained the development tile."},{"startTime":128.32,"endTime":131.44,"body":"So NetPower has evolved into a pure developer."},{"startTime":131.44,"endTime":136.88,"body":"Historically, what we've delivered is, as an example,"},{"startTime":136.88,"endTime":139.44,"body":"Europe's largest EV charging network."},{"startTime":139.44,"endTime":141.6,"body":"We delivered Italy's largest"},{"startTime":141.6,"endTime":144.24,"body":"wind portfolio, for instance."},{"startTime":144.24,"endTime":147.68,"body":"So we tend to deliver very large portfolios."},{"startTime":147.68,"endTime":152.68,"body":"And then typically, we would manage those through to COD,"},{"startTime":152.68,"endTime":155.4,"body":"so that's commercial operation."},{"startTime":155.4,"endTime":158.36,"body":"And then an investor would then take"},{"startTime":158.36,"endTime":160.0,"body":"the majority of those projects."},{"startTime":160.0,"endTime":163.8,"body":"Now, investors tend to be the big pension funds"},{"startTime":163.8,"endTime":166.12,"body":"of the world and the big infrastructure funds."},{"startTime":166.12,"endTime":170.76,"body":"- Okay, so you're developing massive renewable projects"},{"startTime":170.76,"endTime":174.12,"body":"and selling them to typically pension funds."},{"startTime":174.12,"endTime":174.96,"body":"- Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":174.96,"endTime":177.72,"body":"So people listening who have pensions,"},{"startTime":177.72,"endTime":181.4,"body":"their pension may well hold some of our assets."},{"startTime":181.4,"endTime":187.04,"body":"- And you mentioned that you're in the UK."},{"startTime":187.04,"endTime":189.04,"body":"What is it that you're doing in the UK?"},{"startTime":189.04,"endTime":192.36,"body":"- So when, as a company, we decided"},{"startTime":192.36,"endTime":193.88,"body":"to go into the UK market,"},{"startTime":193.88,"endTime":196.56,"body":"the biggest opportunity we identified"},{"startTime":196.56,"endTime":199.52,"body":"was getting involved in battery storage."},{"startTime":199.52,"endTime":202.28,"body":"But typically, we're quite agnostic"},{"startTime":202.28,"endTime":203.36,"body":"in terms of technology,"},{"startTime":203.36,"endTime":206.72,"body":"as long as it's related to the energy transition."},{"startTime":206.72,"endTime":209.36,"body":"But the battery storage market"},{"startTime":209.36,"endTime":212.48,"body":"was where we first started to look."},{"startTime":212.48,"endTime":214.48,"body":"So in the last two years,"},{"startTime":214.48,"endTime":217.12,"body":"we've grown our presence in the UK"},{"startTime":217.12,"endTime":220.36,"body":"from when we started just three individuals"},{"startTime":220.36,"endTime":222.48,"body":"to now a team of over 70 people."},{"startTime":222.48,"endTime":227.64,"body":"We've delivered, in terms of our pipeline,"},{"startTime":227.64,"endTime":229.96,"body":"the largest battery storage pipeline,"},{"startTime":229.96,"endTime":232.88,"body":"not just in the UK, but certainly in Europe,"},{"startTime":232.88,"endTime":235.32,"body":"in terms of our activities in the long term."},{"startTime":235.32,"endTime":239.48,"body":"And that's fully aligned with how we go about our business."},{"startTime":239.48,"endTime":241.44,"body":"So every country that we operate in,"},{"startTime":241.44,"endTime":243.6,"body":"we try and make a real difference"},{"startTime":243.6,"endTime":247.72,"body":"to that national setup in terms of their infrastructure."},{"startTime":247.72,"endTime":249.52,"body":"So we don't tend to go into a country"},{"startTime":249.52,"endTime":251.6,"body":"and just do three or four projects."},{"startTime":251.6,"endTime":253.76,"body":"We try and make a real difference."},{"startTime":253.76,"endTime":255.72,"body":"And that's reflected in what we've delivered"},{"startTime":255.72,"endTime":256.92,"body":"in terms of battery storage."},{"startTime":256.92,"endTime":259.88,"body":"So we're also now getting involved"},{"startTime":259.88,"endTime":262.8,"body":"in doing large-scale solar and wind,"},{"startTime":262.8,"endTime":264.96,"body":"now it's possible to do wind in the UK."},{"startTime":264.96,"endTime":266.52,"body":"So that's really exciting for us."},{"startTime":266.52,"endTime":267.76,"body":"And there's a couple of other areas"},{"startTime":267.76,"endTime":269.64,"body":"that we're starting to get involved in,"},{"startTime":269.64,"endTime":272.96,"body":"in terms of decarbonizing the marine sector."},{"startTime":272.96,"endTime":276.12,"body":"So that's an international activity for us,"},{"startTime":276.12,"endTime":279.32,"body":"but that's going to be headquartered here in the UK."},{"startTime":279.32,"endTime":281.96,"body":"So just to move back to battery storage,"},{"startTime":281.96,"endTime":285.28,"body":"we are delivering the largest projects"},{"startTime":285.28,"endTime":287.0,"body":"and the largest portfolio."},{"startTime":287.0,"endTime":290.08,"body":"So a typical project for us in the UK"},{"startTime":290.08,"endTime":292.24,"body":"would be a transmission connection"},{"startTime":292.24,"endTime":293.88,"body":"of typically one gigawatt,"},{"startTime":293.88,"endTime":296.68,"body":"and a four-hour storage system."},{"startTime":296.68,"endTime":299.64,"body":"So that would be four gigawatt hours of battery."},{"startTime":299.64,"endTime":302.72,"body":"That project would be the largest in Europe."},{"startTime":302.72,"endTime":305.4,"body":"We have at the moment in our pipeline"},{"startTime":305.4,"endTime":308.36,"body":"around 15 of those projects in the UK."},{"startTime":308.36,"endTime":312.48,"body":"So they're very significant, large infrastructure projects."},{"startTime":312.48,"endTime":314.6,"body":"The cap for each one of those"},{"startTime":314.6,"endTime":318.56,"body":"would be in the region of say 600, 700 million each."},{"startTime":318.56,"endTime":320.16,"body":"So very big projects."},{"startTime":320.16,"endTime":322.68,"body":"- Nice, okay."},{"startTime":322.68,"endTime":326.08,"body":"So two questions of that."},{"startTime":326.08,"endTime":331.0,"body":"A, why battery storage in particular in the UK?"},{"startTime":331.0,"endTime":336.0,"body":"And B, more broadly, why decarbonization?"},{"startTime":336.0,"endTime":341.76,"body":"What's the reasoning behind NatPower's"},{"startTime":341.76,"endTime":344.68,"body":"wanting to decarbonize grids globally?"},{"startTime":344.68,"endTime":348.84,"body":"- Okay, so on the first point,"},{"startTime":348.84,"endTime":353.08,"body":"the UK is one of the best markets globally"},{"startTime":353.08,"endTime":355.6,"body":"for battery storage out in the world."},{"startTime":355.6,"endTime":360.6,"body":"And that typically is driven by the 24-hour supply demand,"},{"startTime":360.6,"endTime":364.12,"body":"position of the country,"},{"startTime":364.12,"endTime":367.08,"body":"and what we call the ancillary services model."},{"startTime":368.52,"endTime":373.04,"body":"Ancillary services is basically looking for assets"},{"startTime":373.04,"endTime":376.8,"body":"that can turn on and turn off quickly"},{"startTime":376.8,"endTime":379.2,"body":"to keep the grid balanced."},{"startTime":379.2,"endTime":382.12,"body":"So we have to keep the frequency of the network balanced"},{"startTime":382.12,"endTime":385.24,"body":"around 50 hertz so that it doesn't damage"},{"startTime":385.24,"endTime":387.0,"body":"people's equipment, et cetera."},{"startTime":387.0,"endTime":390.24,"body":"It's about power quality, maintaining power quality."},{"startTime":390.24,"endTime":393.2,"body":"So National Grid has contracts held"},{"startTime":393.2,"endTime":396.6,"body":"to those kind of assets that can balance the grid."},{"startTime":396.6,"endTime":398.52,"body":"And batteries are exceptionally good at that"},{"startTime":398.52,"endTime":399.92,"body":"because you can turn them on"},{"startTime":399.92,"endTime":402.52,"body":"and turn them off extremely quickly."},{"startTime":402.52,"endTime":404.96,"body":"Another example would be Pumptide Drive, for instance,"},{"startTime":404.96,"endTime":408.52,"body":"where you can turn on large generation very, very quickly"},{"startTime":408.52,"endTime":411.4,"body":"to keep the grid, what we call, balanced."},{"startTime":411.4,"endTime":413.48,"body":"Those services for balancing the grid"},{"startTime":413.48,"endTime":415.6,"body":"are contracted by National Grid."},{"startTime":415.6,"endTime":417.56,"body":"So they initiated, if you like,"},{"startTime":417.56,"endTime":420.08,"body":"the battery storage market here in the UK."},{"startTime":420.08,"endTime":421.92,"body":"So the first battery storage projects"},{"startTime":421.92,"endTime":425.4,"body":"were their revenue was almost wholly contracts"},{"startTime":425.4,"endTime":427.44,"body":"to balance the network."},{"startTime":427.44,"endTime":431.76,"body":"Those are now pretty much in capacity."},{"startTime":431.76,"endTime":433.84,"body":"So National Grid have all of those assets"},{"startTime":433.84,"endTime":435.96,"body":"that they really need to keep grid balanced."},{"startTime":435.96,"endTime":438.76,"body":"But now the market of battery in the UK"},{"startTime":438.76,"endTime":441.8,"body":"has moved towards what we call arbitrage."},{"startTime":441.8,"endTime":444.08,"body":"And that's how we're trading."},{"startTime":444.08,"endTime":447.24,"body":"So in effect, a battery doesn't generate power"},{"startTime":447.24,"endTime":449.12,"body":"in and of itself."},{"startTime":449.12,"endTime":452.0,"body":"It simply enables you to trade power."},{"startTime":452.0,"endTime":454.56,"body":"So you can buy power from the grid"},{"startTime":454.56,"endTime":456.36,"body":"when the price is low,"},{"startTime":456.36,"endTime":458.48,"body":"and then push that power back into the grid"},{"startTime":458.48,"endTime":460.92,"body":"where the power price is high."},{"startTime":460.92,"endTime":464.32,"body":"So most of the batteries now that are being developed"},{"startTime":464.32,"endTime":468.2,"body":"are basically enablers for energy trading."},{"startTime":468.2,"endTime":472.92,"body":"Because the UK has a very peaky demand over 24 hours,"},{"startTime":472.92,"endTime":475.36,"body":"there is a very, very high demand in the morning,"},{"startTime":475.36,"endTime":477.6,"body":"and then even higher demand in the evening."},{"startTime":477.6,"endTime":480.12,"body":"That then tracks to power prices."},{"startTime":480.12,"endTime":481.36,"body":"And then in the middle of the night,"},{"startTime":481.36,"endTime":482.68,"body":"say at two or three in the morning,"},{"startTime":482.68,"endTime":486.16,"body":"when the demand is really low, the power price drops."},{"startTime":486.16,"endTime":489.08,"body":"So that's where the current markets are actually in play."},{"startTime":489.08,"endTime":491.2,"body":"But then also strategically going forward,"},{"startTime":491.2,"endTime":493.32,"body":"especially given the new government"},{"startTime":493.32,"endTime":495.16,"body":"that we had from last year,"},{"startTime":495.16,"endTime":497.68,"body":"they have a target to completely decarbonize"},{"startTime":497.68,"endTime":499.64,"body":"the grid by 2030."},{"startTime":499.64,"endTime":503.32,"body":"That means a huge addition of intermittent"},{"startTime":503.32,"endTime":505.36,"body":"renewable power onto the network."},{"startTime":505.36,"endTime":508.68,"body":"And that's going to make the grid even more intermittent,"},{"startTime":508.68,"endTime":511.8,"body":"which then again, gives longevity to the market"},{"startTime":511.8,"endTime":514.76,"body":"for batteries to satisfy that intermittency."},{"startTime":514.76,"endTime":517.36,"body":"So that's why battery here in the UK."},{"startTime":517.36,"endTime":520.24,"body":"Other markets around the world are starting"},{"startTime":520.24,"endTime":524.12,"body":"to emerge for batteries because they are also starting"},{"startTime":524.12,"endTime":526.6,"body":"to decarbonize their grid and become more reliant"},{"startTime":526.6,"endTime":528.76,"body":"on intermittent sources."},{"startTime":528.76,"endTime":531.0,"body":"So the battery markets around the world"},{"startTime":531.0,"endTime":533.04,"body":"continue to evolve and continue to grow."},{"startTime":533.04,"endTime":537.44,"body":"Equally, the reduction in the cost of batteries"},{"startTime":537.44,"endTime":540.36,"body":"is dramatic and it's taking the same curve"},{"startTime":540.36,"endTime":544.32,"body":"the price of solar panels went through about 15 years ago,"},{"startTime":544.32,"endTime":547.2,"body":"where you would never have imagined solar would be viable"},{"startTime":547.2,"endTime":549.24,"body":"in northern latitudes and now it is"},{"startTime":549.24,"endTime":551.44,"body":"because the price of those panels is so low."},{"startTime":551.44,"endTime":554.56,"body":"The same thing is happening to batteries."},{"startTime":554.56,"endTime":558.28,"body":"It's not economically viable now to deploy batteries"},{"startTime":558.28,"endTime":560.04,"body":"where you otherwise wouldn't have thought"},{"startTime":560.04,"endTime":561.64,"body":"about deploying batteries."},{"startTime":561.64,"endTime":564.64,"body":"And that's going to come to develop the battery market."},{"startTime":564.64,"endTime":565.84,"body":"Go on."},{"startTime":565.84,"endTime":567.32,"body":"So that's the first point."},{"startTime":567.32,"endTime":569.24,"body":"Why decarbonization?"},{"startTime":569.24,"endTime":574.24,"body":"So that really came from our chairman"},{"startTime":574.24,"endTime":578.96,"body":"and his passion for sustainability,"},{"startTime":578.96,"endTime":580.64,"body":"trying to combat climate change."},{"startTime":580.64,"endTime":584.8,"body":"And so he moved into this sector himself personally."},{"startTime":584.8,"endTime":587.16,"body":"That's where we grew from as a business."},{"startTime":587.16,"endTime":591.44,"body":"We then now have a mixture of investors, a grid,"},{"startTime":591.44,"endTime":594.96,"body":"and all of those investors are going on the same road"},{"startTime":594.96,"endTime":596.16,"body":"that we're on."},{"startTime":596.16,"endTime":599.4,"body":"We're passionate about combating climate change."},{"startTime":599.4,"endTime":604.24,"body":"We also see that the future economic development"},{"startTime":604.24,"endTime":609.24,"body":"of countries is going to be focused on decarbonization."},{"startTime":609.24,"endTime":613.28,"body":"The green jobs of the future, that's what we're focused on."},{"startTime":613.28,"endTime":617.0,"body":"As countries decarbonize, move away from fossil fuel"},{"startTime":617.0,"endTime":622.0,"body":"generation and move into the clean power future"},{"startTime":622.0,"endTime":623.68,"body":"that we're all driving towards,"},{"startTime":623.68,"endTime":625.8,"body":"that's where the jobs are going to be."},{"startTime":625.8,"endTime":627.44,"body":"And I like to add as well,"},{"startTime":627.44,"endTime":629.84,"body":"which is something that we are starting to get involved in,"},{"startTime":629.84,"endTime":634.64,"body":"for instance, is the technology drive to things like AI,"},{"startTime":634.64,"endTime":638.0,"body":"which is going to require a very, very large number"},{"startTime":638.0,"endTime":639.2,"body":"of data centers."},{"startTime":639.2,"endTime":641.24,"body":"And they are extremely powerful."},{"startTime":641.24,"endTime":646.84,"body":"- Just to push back on that quickly for a second,"},{"startTime":646.84,"endTime":648.6,"body":"not in the data center point,"},{"startTime":648.6,"endTime":651.0,"body":"but more on the decarbonization one."},{"startTime":652.28,"endTime":655.88,"body":"Since the election of President Trump,"},{"startTime":655.88,"endTime":658.96,"body":"we're starting to see a push back against moves"},{"startTime":658.96,"endTime":661.28,"body":"towards decarbonization."},{"startTime":661.28,"endTime":666.28,"body":"So do you see that becoming a trend"},{"startTime":666.28,"endTime":672.16,"body":"thereby putting your business in difficulty or danger,"},{"startTime":672.16,"endTime":675.88,"body":"or do you think that is just a blip and exceptional"},{"startTime":675.88,"endTime":677.68,"body":"and you're still on the right track?"},{"startTime":677.68,"endTime":681.88,"body":"- Yeah, our view, Thomas, is that there are outliers."},{"startTime":681.88,"endTime":684.12,"body":"When you look internationally,"},{"startTime":684.12,"endTime":686.52,"body":"and if you look at what goes on,"},{"startTime":686.52,"endTime":687.64,"body":"for instance, in the UN,"},{"startTime":687.64,"endTime":690.64,"body":"the way that countries voted in the UN,"},{"startTime":690.64,"endTime":695.64,"body":"the vast majority of countries are still going down"},{"startTime":695.64,"endTime":697.84,"body":"the road of decarbonization."},{"startTime":697.84,"endTime":701.44,"body":"And the change in politics that we see in the US,"},{"startTime":701.44,"endTime":705.64,"body":"for instance, our view is that that is an outlier"},{"startTime":705.64,"endTime":708.68,"body":"in terms of the international direction of Trump."},{"startTime":710.28,"endTime":712.32,"body":"- Okay, and the new German government?"},{"startTime":712.32,"endTime":716.96,"body":"- Again, I'm sure most people were kind of taken aback"},{"startTime":716.96,"endTime":718.16,"body":"by the result there."},{"startTime":718.16,"endTime":720.96,"body":"We'll wait and see how the coalition forms out of that,"},{"startTime":720.96,"endTime":722.52,"body":"because it is an Asian coalition."},{"startTime":722.52,"endTime":727.0,"body":"The Green Party, always the extremely strong in Germany."},{"startTime":727.0,"endTime":729.32,"body":"They form part of the coalitions"},{"startTime":729.32,"endTime":733.0,"body":"in recent political history in Germany."},{"startTime":733.0,"endTime":734.6,"body":"They're not going away."},{"startTime":734.6,"endTime":738.08,"body":"They have impacted the policy in Germany."},{"startTime":738.08,"endTime":740.4,"body":"If you look, just going back a few years,"},{"startTime":740.4,"endTime":742.0,"body":"on what Germany has delivered,"},{"startTime":742.0,"endTime":745.48,"body":"they did quite more similar in Germany"},{"startTime":745.48,"endTime":747.48,"body":"than almost the whole of Europe put together,"},{"startTime":747.48,"endTime":750.08,"body":"and Germany not being a Mediterranean country."},{"startTime":750.08,"endTime":752.28,"body":"So that was driven by the policy"},{"startTime":752.28,"endTime":755.04,"body":"the Green Party were able to influence in the coalition."},{"startTime":755.04,"endTime":758.72,"body":"So yeah, the populist political movements"},{"startTime":758.72,"endTime":760.12,"body":"that are coming to the fore,"},{"startTime":760.12,"endTime":763.52,"body":"towards the right of politics,"},{"startTime":763.52,"endTime":765.6,"body":"again, we still see them being"},{"startTime":766.64,"endTime":770.48,"body":"mostly based upon one or two policies"},{"startTime":770.48,"endTime":773.68,"body":"that have been used as political footballs."},{"startTime":773.68,"endTime":776.0,"body":"I don't think that's the core"},{"startTime":776.0,"endTime":778.08,"body":"of what those companies are about"},{"startTime":778.08,"endTime":780.24,"body":"when it comes to decarbonisation."},{"startTime":780.24,"endTime":781.8,"body":"We're still very, very confident"},{"startTime":781.8,"endTime":785.6,"body":"that the international markets for decarbonisation"},{"startTime":785.6,"endTime":787.84,"body":"are going to remain extremely strong."},{"startTime":787.84,"endTime":790.04,"body":"And we may well see the political moves"},{"startTime":790.04,"endTime":793.32,"body":"that happened in the US, say, in five years' time,"},{"startTime":793.32,"endTime":794.68,"body":"with regards to Donald Trump."},{"startTime":794.68,"endTime":799.04,"body":"It would only take a change of president,"},{"startTime":799.04,"endTime":801.2,"body":"and not a big change in terms of policies"},{"startTime":801.2,"endTime":803.16,"body":"of presidents in the US,"},{"startTime":803.16,"endTime":804.28,"body":"and then they'll go straight back"},{"startTime":804.28,"endTime":806.28,"body":"into the Paris Accords, for instance,"},{"startTime":806.28,"endTime":808.32,"body":"which is exactly what Joe Biden did."},{"startTime":808.32,"endTime":811.32,"body":"So we've been there with Trump before."},{"startTime":811.32,"endTime":814.2,"body":"It was completely reversed by Biden."},{"startTime":814.2,"endTime":817.0,"body":"So yeah, we just think it's an outlier of the road."},{"startTime":817.0,"endTime":819.28,"body":"- Okay, coming back to the UK,"},{"startTime":819.28,"endTime":823.44,"body":"the UK has ambitious net zero goals."},{"startTime":823.44,"endTime":826.4,"body":"How do you think the UK will manage"},{"startTime":826.4,"endTime":831.4,"body":"to get off gas and fully decarbonise the grid by 2030,"},{"startTime":831.4,"endTime":835.24,"body":"particularly in light of skyrocketing demand"},{"startTime":835.24,"endTime":840.12,"body":"from the likes of AI and having to electrify everything?"},{"startTime":840.12,"endTime":842.48,"body":"I mean, very often I say to people,"},{"startTime":842.48,"endTime":844.04,"body":"you want to go net zero,"},{"startTime":844.04,"endTime":848.12,"body":"first thing you do is make everything electric,"},{"startTime":848.12,"endTime":851.88,"body":"and then switch to a renewable supplier."},{"startTime":851.88,"endTime":855.32,"body":"Now, that's easy for a company to do, relatively."},{"startTime":855.32,"endTime":858.76,"body":"A lot more difficult to do at a national level, no?"},{"startTime":858.76,"endTime":859.76,"body":"- Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":859.76,"endTime":862.68,"body":"So to get to net zero,"},{"startTime":862.68,"endTime":864.96,"body":"if you look at what net zero means,"},{"startTime":864.96,"endTime":867.52,"body":"if you're talking about full decarbonisation"},{"startTime":867.52,"endTime":868.96,"body":"of the entire economy,"},{"startTime":868.96,"endTime":871.24,"body":"that's much harder to achieve"},{"startTime":871.24,"endTime":873.48,"body":"than the decarbonisation of the grid."},{"startTime":873.48,"endTime":877.6,"body":"Decarbonisation of the grid is the first step,"},{"startTime":877.6,"endTime":880.08,"body":"which tends to be the easiest step to do,"},{"startTime":880.08,"endTime":881.96,"body":"because as you quite rightly pointed out,"},{"startTime":881.96,"endTime":884.8,"body":"it's a lot easier to decarbonise the electricity network"},{"startTime":884.8,"endTime":887.88,"body":"than it, for instance, would be in terms of things"},{"startTime":887.88,"endTime":892.88,"body":"like transport, particularly airline transport,"},{"startTime":892.88,"endTime":894.88,"body":"domestic heating is going to be something"},{"startTime":894.88,"endTime":897.2,"body":"that's going to need a lot more attention, for instance,"},{"startTime":897.2,"endTime":900.52,"body":"but particularly in the UK to get the UK off gas."},{"startTime":900.52,"endTime":903.4,"body":"We look at decarbonisation of the grid first,"},{"startTime":903.4,"endTime":904.68,"body":"and the plan in the UK,"},{"startTime":904.68,"endTime":907.04,"body":"and this is what would need to be delivered,"},{"startTime":907.04,"endTime":912.04,"body":"and this target is a quadrupling of offshore wind,"},{"startTime":912.04,"endTime":914.04,"body":"a doubling of onshore wind,"},{"startTime":914.04,"endTime":915.8,"body":"and a tripling of solar."},{"startTime":915.8,"endTime":919.84,"body":"Now, that's a huge, a huge challenge to the industry"},{"startTime":919.84,"endTime":923.52,"body":"to deliver that on the ground by 2030."},{"startTime":923.52,"endTime":928.2,"body":"And what you'll see is a slightly nuanced message"},{"startTime":928.2,"endTime":929.44,"body":"that's coming out of the government,"},{"startTime":929.44,"endTime":931.36,"body":"where now they're saying,"},{"startTime":931.36,"endTime":936.36,"body":"we are looking at maybe having a 5% unabated gas emissions"},{"startTime":936.36,"endTime":941.36,"body":"aspect in what they're calling Green Power 2030."},{"startTime":941.36,"endTime":946.92,"body":"Our view is 2030 is going to be"},{"startTime":946.92,"endTime":950.28,"body":"an extremely difficult date to meet."},{"startTime":950.28,"endTime":951.8,"body":"The quadrupling of offshore wind"},{"startTime":951.8,"endTime":954.96,"body":"is probably the most challenging to deliver,"},{"startTime":954.96,"endTime":957.76,"body":"given that it's had some recent difficulties"},{"startTime":957.76,"endTime":960.0,"body":"in terms of getting to some energy clubs,"},{"startTime":960.0,"endTime":962.6,"body":"or some of the big projects that we've seen recently."},{"startTime":963.76,"endTime":966.76,"body":"But the intermittency that that's going to add"},{"startTime":966.76,"endTime":969.4,"body":"into the grid, as I mentioned at the start,"},{"startTime":969.4,"endTime":971.96,"body":"that's why we got involved in battery storage,"},{"startTime":971.96,"endTime":976.08,"body":"that can be almost completely satisfied"},{"startTime":976.08,"endTime":978.6,"body":"by what is happening in the battery storage market."},{"startTime":978.6,"endTime":981.56,"body":"So what we're seeing now,"},{"startTime":981.56,"endTime":986.36,"body":"because of the reduction in prices for batteries,"},{"startTime":986.36,"endTime":988.12,"body":"the improved technology,"},{"startTime":988.12,"endTime":990.2,"body":"so now a single battery storage unit"},{"startTime":990.2,"endTime":993.92,"body":"would, for instance, be about a five megawatt capacity."},{"startTime":993.92,"endTime":998.92,"body":"And so only maybe three or four years ago,"},{"startTime":998.92,"endTime":1001.64,"body":"a single battery unit would just be one megawatt."},{"startTime":1001.64,"endTime":1003.84,"body":"So we're seeing improved energy densities,"},{"startTime":1003.84,"endTime":1007.8,"body":"we're seeing improved cycling abilities for batteries,"},{"startTime":1007.8,"endTime":1012.32,"body":"they need much, much less maintenance, for instance,"},{"startTime":1012.32,"endTime":1014.72,"body":"you're getting much better warranties on your batteries,"},{"startTime":1014.72,"endTime":1018.16,"body":"so electric clothes, projects is getting much easier."},{"startTime":1018.16,"endTime":1022.2,"body":"So the whole battery market in terms of technology and price"},{"startTime":1022.2,"endTime":1025.0,"body":"is really, really evolving rapidly."},{"startTime":1025.0,"endTime":1030.72,"body":"As an example, with the price reduction"},{"startTime":1030.72,"endTime":1032.52,"body":"that we're seeing for batteries,"},{"startTime":1032.52,"endTime":1037.52,"body":"they will be cost competitive against pumped hydro"},{"startTime":1037.52,"endTime":1040.24,"body":"in terms of long duration storage."},{"startTime":1040.24,"endTime":1041.2,"body":"And that's what we need,"},{"startTime":1041.2,"endTime":1043.24,"body":"it should drive a lot of things on the system,"},{"startTime":1043.24,"endTime":1044.6,"body":"is long duration storage."},{"startTime":1045.68,"endTime":1048.88,"body":"It will be cost competitive against pumped hydro,"},{"startTime":1048.88,"endTime":1053.08,"body":"as an example for a 12 hour storage asset,"},{"startTime":1053.08,"endTime":1056.2,"body":"by around 2028, 2021."},{"startTime":1056.2,"endTime":1060.28,"body":"So it would then become financially viable"},{"startTime":1060.28,"endTime":1064.8,"body":"to build a 12 hour battery storage asset,"},{"startTime":1064.8,"endTime":1067.24,"body":"rather than a pumped hydro storage asset"},{"startTime":1067.24,"endTime":1070.2,"body":"in terms of financial viability."},{"startTime":1070.2,"endTime":1073.92,"body":"So you're seeing that long duration storage of batteries"},{"startTime":1073.92,"endTime":1076.48,"body":"is increasing year on year."},{"startTime":1076.48,"endTime":1079.28,"body":"And certainly by the mid 2030s,"},{"startTime":1079.28,"endTime":1082.24,"body":"we think that a battery storage asset"},{"startTime":1082.24,"endTime":1085.88,"body":"that can store power and raise power for 24 hours"},{"startTime":1085.88,"endTime":1087.32,"body":"is going to be viable."},{"startTime":1087.32,"endTime":1089.8,"body":"So it seems extremely likely that batteries"},{"startTime":1089.8,"endTime":1093.52,"body":"are going to be satisfying the vast majority"},{"startTime":1093.52,"endTime":1095.72,"body":"of intermixing algorithms."},{"startTime":1095.72,"endTime":1098.64,"body":"And certainly by 2035,"},{"startTime":1099.92,"endTime":1102.4,"body":"there may be a need to have,"},{"startTime":1102.4,"endTime":1104.36,"body":"as the UK government is saying,"},{"startTime":1104.36,"endTime":1108.6,"body":"some kind of unabated gas sat on the network,"},{"startTime":1108.6,"endTime":1113.6,"body":"mothballed, just in case of those few occasions in the year"},{"startTime":1113.6,"endTime":1119.04,"body":"where you have low sun, the UK,"},{"startTime":1119.04,"endTime":1122.64,"body":"no wind, and very large demand."},{"startTime":1122.64,"endTime":1126.56,"body":"And that periods are very, very short,"},{"startTime":1126.56,"endTime":1129.32,"body":"you know, they tend to be less than 24 hours,"},{"startTime":1129.32,"endTime":1130.84,"body":"and they don't happen very often,"},{"startTime":1130.84,"endTime":1132.76,"body":"maybe three or four days."},{"startTime":1132.76,"endTime":1136.56,"body":"So that's where pushing gas off the system"},{"startTime":1136.56,"endTime":1138.96,"body":"is going to, in our view,"},{"startTime":1138.96,"endTime":1143.08,"body":"be facilitated by long duration battery storage"},{"startTime":1143.08,"endTime":1145.56,"body":"a lot sooner than what you guys are predicting."},{"startTime":1145.56,"endTime":1148.8,"body":"It's not going to be 5% of unabated gas"},{"startTime":1148.8,"endTime":1151.52,"body":"on the network by 2030."},{"startTime":1151.52,"endTime":1153.6,"body":"We can do that, we want to deliver."},{"startTime":1153.6,"endTime":1156.72,"body":"It might only be 1%, for instance."},{"startTime":1156.72,"endTime":1159.4,"body":"And then you've got new long duration storage technology"},{"startTime":1159.4,"endTime":1160.96,"body":"that come in, it's not straight."},{"startTime":1160.96,"endTime":1165.52,"body":"It could also satisfy storage, but beyond the 20th round."},{"startTime":1165.52,"endTime":1169.0,"body":"So it's absolutely deliverable today by 2030,"},{"startTime":1169.0,"endTime":1171.32,"body":"but just the effort that it's going to take"},{"startTime":1171.32,"endTime":1174.24,"body":"to build out those renewable assets,"},{"startTime":1174.24,"endTime":1177.16,"body":"we think it might be 2032, 2033,"},{"startTime":1177.16,"endTime":1181.64,"body":"when we do end up with a clean power,"},{"startTime":1181.64,"endTime":1185.44,"body":"2030 network system, in terms of what we're doing."},{"startTime":1185.44,"endTime":1190.28,"body":"- I'm curious, though, in that kind of scenario,"},{"startTime":1190.28,"endTime":1193.88,"body":"where you have mothballed gas"},{"startTime":1193.88,"endTime":1198.88,"body":"that might be turned on two or three times a year max,"},{"startTime":1198.88,"endTime":1200.76,"body":"who's going to develop that?"},{"startTime":1200.76,"endTime":1204.48,"body":"Because the return on investment"},{"startTime":1204.48,"endTime":1206.8,"body":"for developing a gas plant"},{"startTime":1206.8,"endTime":1209.36,"body":"that's going to be turned on two or three times a year"},{"startTime":1209.36,"endTime":1211.52,"body":"is going to be in the centuries,"},{"startTime":1211.52,"endTime":1216.08,"body":"unless they're charging ridiculous amounts"},{"startTime":1216.08,"endTime":1218.44,"body":"for turning themselves on,"},{"startTime":1218.44,"endTime":1221.16,"body":"which in the UK market,"},{"startTime":1221.16,"endTime":1224.76,"body":"when the price of electricity is dictated"},{"startTime":1224.76,"endTime":1227.44,"body":"by the highest contributor to the market,"},{"startTime":1227.44,"endTime":1230.0,"body":"means suddenly the price for consumers"},{"startTime":1230.0,"endTime":1233.76,"body":"will spike to hundreds of pounds per kilowatt hour."},{"startTime":1233.76,"endTime":1239.88,"body":"- Yeah, so we already have those gas plants in the UK."},{"startTime":1267.3200000000002,"endTime":1268.8400000000001,"body":"They're called gas peakers,"},{"startTime":1268.8400000000001,"endTime":1272.76,"body":"because they only turn on when you've got peak demand."},{"startTime":1272.76,"endTime":1276.24,"body":"So it wouldn't need construction in your gas plants."},{"startTime":1276.24,"endTime":1278.04,"body":"We have existing gas plants"},{"startTime":1278.04,"endTime":1280.4,"body":"that can converge to be gas peakers."},{"startTime":1280.4,"endTime":1283.48,"body":"So in terms of your capital expenditure,"},{"startTime":1283.48,"endTime":1284.72,"body":"it's already there."},{"startTime":1284.72,"endTime":1289.48,"body":"The incentive that we think would need to be put in place"},{"startTime":1289.48,"endTime":1293.44,"body":"would be specific payments in the capacity market."},{"startTime":1294.4,"endTime":1298.2,"body":"So the capacity market in the UK is already very active."},{"startTime":1298.2,"endTime":1300.3600000000001,"body":"Assets can fit into that capacity market"},{"startTime":1300.3600000000001,"endTime":1304.64,"body":"simply by having an asset that's sent on the network,"},{"startTime":1304.64,"endTime":1306.28,"body":"adding capacity to the network,"},{"startTime":1306.28,"endTime":1310.64,"body":"that can turn on and can turn off when needed."},{"startTime":1310.64,"endTime":1313.72,"body":"So all it would need would be a specific payment"},{"startTime":1313.72,"endTime":1317.0800000000002,"body":"to gas peakers at the right price"},{"startTime":1317.0800000000002,"endTime":1319.64,"body":"in that capacity market that already exists"},{"startTime":1319.64,"endTime":1323.16,"body":"to finance them just being sat there for most of the year."},{"startTime":1323.16,"endTime":1327.0,"body":"The cost for having them sat there is very low."},{"startTime":1327.0,"endTime":1329.92,"body":"The biggest cost for gas peakers is actually the gas itself."},{"startTime":1329.92,"endTime":1332.1200000000001,"body":"So yes, it is possible to do that"},{"startTime":1332.1200000000001,"endTime":1336.0800000000002,"body":"for the cost that that would incur on the network,"},{"startTime":1336.0800000000002,"endTime":1339.4,"body":"where they're only active for a few days a year."},{"startTime":1339.4,"endTime":1344.24,"body":"Yes, they will be receiving large payments to sit there."},{"startTime":1344.24,"endTime":1347.52,"body":"But when you take the whole network and cost"},{"startTime":1347.52,"endTime":1351.04,"body":"and the power price that can be delivered for renewables,"},{"startTime":1351.04,"endTime":1354.6000000000001,"body":"which is gonna lower everybody's electricity prices,"},{"startTime":1354.6000000000001,"endTime":1357.1200000000001,"body":"those few days, those extra payments you give"},{"startTime":1357.1200000000001,"endTime":1361.48,"body":"to those gas peakers will disappear within hours."},{"startTime":1361.48,"endTime":1365.52,"body":"- Looking at the UK's current transition,"},{"startTime":1365.52,"endTime":1367.04,"body":"where do you think the UK is doing well"},{"startTime":1367.04,"endTime":1369.16,"body":"and where are they dropping the ball?"},{"startTime":1369.16,"endTime":1371.44,"body":"- Doing well, great target,"},{"startTime":1371.44,"endTime":1374.8400000000001,"body":"clean power 2030, great for the industry."},{"startTime":1374.8400000000001,"endTime":1379.3600000000001,"body":"So there's political will, which is the main thing you need."},{"startTime":1380.48,"endTime":1382.64,"body":"So that's all positive."},{"startTime":1382.64,"endTime":1386.2,"body":"We know we can deliver on the ground in terms of the assets."},{"startTime":1386.2,"endTime":1388.4,"body":"That's not an issue for us."},{"startTime":1388.4,"endTime":1392.52,"body":"But as I'm sure everybody who is used to your course on,"},{"startTime":1392.52,"endTime":1395.72,"body":"and this is common for most countries around the world,"},{"startTime":1395.72,"endTime":1398.0800000000002,"body":"it all comes down to the grid issue."},{"startTime":1398.0800000000002,"endTime":1401.16,"body":"And this is common for most countries."},{"startTime":1401.16,"endTime":1403.0,"body":"There is a network issue"},{"startTime":1403.0,"endTime":1405.88,"body":"when you are going through the energy transition."},{"startTime":1405.88,"endTime":1407.8,"body":"You're moving away from a system"},{"startTime":1407.8,"endTime":1411.1200000000001,"body":"where you had very few centers of generation,"},{"startTime":1411.1200000000001,"endTime":1413.2,"body":"which tended to be coal, fire, power plants,"},{"startTime":1413.2,"endTime":1415.8,"body":"very big, very lumpy assets"},{"startTime":1415.8,"endTime":1418.24,"body":"with a transmission network connection,"},{"startTime":1418.24,"endTime":1421.64,"body":"not very granular transmission network,"},{"startTime":1421.64,"endTime":1424.28,"body":"just a few big lines into these big lumpy assets."},{"startTime":1424.28,"endTime":1426.56,"body":"And we're moving away from that."},{"startTime":1426.56,"endTime":1430.8,"body":"So the grid has to evolve and it's not evolved fast enough."},{"startTime":1430.8,"endTime":1434.28,"body":"And there's been a lack of investment in the grid in the UK."},{"startTime":1434.28,"endTime":1436.1200000000001,"body":"National grid is known, for instance,"},{"startTime":1436.1200000000001,"endTime":1438.76,"body":"that the country is moving towards"},{"startTime":1438.76,"endTime":1440.56,"body":"greater renewables on the network."},{"startTime":1440.56,"endTime":1442.4,"body":"That's been happening for 16 years."},{"startTime":1442.4,"endTime":1443.72,"body":"So it's not a new thing."},{"startTime":1443.72,"endTime":1448.72,"body":"So the investment in the grid has fallen behind."},{"startTime":1448.72,"endTime":1450.1200000000001,"body":"And with this new government"},{"startTime":1450.1200000000001,"endTime":1453.0,"body":"wanting a decarbonized grid by 2030,"},{"startTime":1453.0,"endTime":1457.76,"body":"now the required grid upgrades and network upgrades"},{"startTime":1457.76,"endTime":1460.56,"body":"are a very, very big challenge."},{"startTime":1460.56,"endTime":1463.88,"body":"So we're going through a grid reform process"},{"startTime":1463.88,"endTime":1468.88,"body":"at the moment that's being led now by the system operator."},{"startTime":1468.88,"endTime":1470.8,"body":"I don't think it's a coincidence"},{"startTime":1470.8,"endTime":1475.44,"body":"that the government purchased the system operator last year."},{"startTime":1475.44,"endTime":1480.44,"body":"We'll see how that grid reform evolves."},{"startTime":1480.44,"endTime":1483.4,"body":"The proposals that we have seen at the moment,"},{"startTime":1483.4,"endTime":1488.24,"body":"we don't think are generally going to satisfy"},{"startTime":1488.24,"endTime":1492.88,"body":"what the network needs in terms of storage out to 2035,"},{"startTime":1492.88,"endTime":1496.76,"body":"because unfortunately the system operator has now,"},{"startTime":1496.76,"endTime":1500.44,"body":"what we think is a market overreach."},{"startTime":1500.44,"endTime":1505.44,"body":"They have now decided to set technology targets,"},{"startTime":1505.44,"endTime":1507.48,"body":"technology limits, not targets,"},{"startTime":1507.48,"endTime":1509.44,"body":"for each zone in the UK."},{"startTime":1509.44,"endTime":1512.24,"body":"And once that technology limit has been reached,"},{"startTime":1512.24,"endTime":1514.88,"body":"they are going to withdraw"},{"startTime":1514.88,"endTime":1518.16,"body":"all new grid connection opportunities."},{"startTime":1518.16,"endTime":1521.04,"body":"The difficulty that we see in that approach,"},{"startTime":1521.04,"endTime":1522.44,"body":"certainly for package storage,"},{"startTime":1522.44,"endTime":1526.0,"body":"is we've got a very, very large number"},{"startTime":1526.0,"endTime":1531.0,"body":"of applicants right now wanting to connect projects."},{"startTime":1531.0,"endTime":1535.96,"body":"All of those projects are two-hour systems,"},{"startTime":1535.96,"endTime":1538.64,"body":"and most of them tend to be quite small assets."},{"startTime":1538.64,"endTime":1541.6000000000001,"body":"And what the system operator is doing"},{"startTime":1541.6000000000001,"endTime":1546.2,"body":"is saying that once those tech limits have been reached,"},{"startTime":1546.2,"endTime":1548.92,"body":"they're not going to enable any more new connections"},{"startTime":1548.92,"endTime":1551.16,"body":"until beyond 2035."},{"startTime":1551.16,"endTime":1557.0,"body":"The difficulty we have is that probably this year,"},{"startTime":1557.0,"endTime":1561.0800000000002,"body":"all of those connections that relate to meeting"},{"startTime":1561.0800000000002,"endTime":1564.1200000000001,"body":"that zone or capacity will be taken."},{"startTime":1564.1200000000001,"endTime":1568.24,"body":"And it'll be taken entirely by two-hour batteries."},{"startTime":1568.24,"endTime":1571.44,"body":"And then the system is going to need longer duration"},{"startTime":1571.44,"endTime":1574.6000000000001,"body":"battery storage from 2035 onwards."},{"startTime":1574.6000000000001,"endTime":1577.04,"body":"So in effect, you're baking into the network"},{"startTime":1577.04,"endTime":1579.4,"body":"by setting those zone limits."},{"startTime":1579.4,"endTime":1582.64,"body":"A battery network on the grid"},{"startTime":1582.64,"endTime":1585.2,"body":"that is not set for purpose in the future,"},{"startTime":1585.2,"endTime":1587.8,"body":"certainly from 2030 and beyond that."},{"startTime":1587.8,"endTime":1591.72,"body":"So as a company, we've actually had to question"},{"startTime":1591.72,"endTime":1594.24,"body":"to the Ofgem, the UK regulator on this."},{"startTime":1594.24,"endTime":1596.56,"body":"They accept what we advise them."},{"startTime":1596.56,"endTime":1598.8400000000001,"body":"So we'll wait and see whether or not"},{"startTime":1598.8400000000001,"endTime":1601.44,"body":"there's a tweak in grid reform"},{"startTime":1601.44,"endTime":1605.72,"body":"to enable longer duration battery storage capacity"},{"startTime":1605.72,"endTime":1608.68,"body":"on the network, 'cause that's what the system's going to need."},{"startTime":1608.68,"endTime":1610.52,"body":"And it's now possible to deliver"},{"startTime":1610.52,"endTime":1613.48,"body":"much longer duration battery storage cost effectively."},{"startTime":1613.48,"endTime":1617.24,"body":"So there are tweaks that we see are needed."},{"startTime":1617.24,"endTime":1620.64,"body":"There's been an appraisal of storage"},{"startTime":1620.64,"endTime":1624.4,"body":"that happened when grid reform started two years ago"},{"startTime":1624.4,"endTime":1627.3200000000002,"body":"that is old school."},{"startTime":1627.3200000000002,"endTime":1631.16,"body":"It was based on where the battery market was two years ago,"},{"startTime":1631.16,"endTime":1634.56,"body":"and it's not moved with where we are today."},{"startTime":1634.56,"endTime":1636.24,"body":"Additionally, in terms of what's needed,"},{"startTime":1636.24,"endTime":1639.8400000000001,"body":"I think we need changes to the planning system"},{"startTime":1639.8400000000001,"endTime":1643.1200000000001,"body":"much more rapidly than is currently happening."},{"startTime":1643.1200000000001,"endTime":1645.8400000000001,"body":"So the government did change the regulations"},{"startTime":1645.8400000000001,"endTime":1648.3600000000001,"body":"for onshore wind to enable onshore wind to happen,"},{"startTime":1648.3600000000001,"endTime":1649.76,"body":"certainly in England."},{"startTime":1649.76,"endTime":1653.76,"body":"We need to see more dramatic changes to the planning network"},{"startTime":1653.76,"endTime":1657.3200000000002,"body":"to enable us to deliver those projects by 2030."},{"startTime":1657.3200000000002,"endTime":1659.56,"body":"It's not going to be possible unless"},{"startTime":1660.72,"endTime":1665.72,"body":"the ability to approve renewable projects"},{"startTime":1665.72,"endTime":1668.4,"body":"on a much larger scale is taken away"},{"startTime":1668.4,"endTime":1671.76,"body":"from where it sits at a level, which is local authorities."},{"startTime":1671.76,"endTime":1677.92,"body":"Our view is that the delivery of Clean Power 2030"},{"startTime":1677.92,"endTime":1681.64,"body":"is a national strategic aim"},{"startTime":1681.64,"endTime":1683.44,"body":"that the government's trying to achieve."},{"startTime":1683.44,"endTime":1687.0800000000002,"body":"And we believe that the decisions to enable that to happen"},{"startTime":1687.0800000000002,"endTime":1690.48,"body":"should be taken centrally rather than locally."},{"startTime":1690.76,"endTime":1694.04,"body":"Yes, we accept that we need to engage with local communities"},{"startTime":1694.04,"endTime":1696.04,"body":"where our projects are going to go,"},{"startTime":1696.04,"endTime":1698.88,"body":"and we can deliver huge community benefits"},{"startTime":1698.88,"endTime":1700.76,"body":"alongside our projects, which we do."},{"startTime":1700.76,"endTime":1704.1200000000001,"body":"We always like to be rapid leaders in that regard."},{"startTime":1704.1200000000001,"endTime":1705.72,"body":"So as an example, for instance,"},{"startTime":1705.72,"endTime":1708.6000000000001,"body":"one of our battery projects, a typical one,"},{"startTime":1708.6000000000001,"endTime":1713.3200000000002,"body":"we will commit to giving up to a million pounds per year"},{"startTime":1713.3200000000002,"endTime":1714.48,"body":"for the local community."},{"startTime":1714.48,"endTime":1716.52,"body":"You can have significant change locally."},{"startTime":1716.52,"endTime":1719.8,"body":"And so we're not doing what most developers do"},{"startTime":1719.8,"endTime":1722.68,"body":"where they would give, say, 20 or 30,000 pounds a year"},{"startTime":1722.68,"endTime":1724.04,"body":"as a community fund."},{"startTime":1724.04,"endTime":1725.8400000000001,"body":"We want to bring communities along with us."},{"startTime":1725.8400000000001,"endTime":1727.16,"body":"So that's all possible."},{"startTime":1727.16,"endTime":1732.16,"body":"But the decision to give planning permits to these assets"},{"startTime":1732.16,"endTime":1735.16,"body":"does need to be more centrally managed"},{"startTime":1735.16,"endTime":1739.28,"body":"because locally it's taking too long to deliver."},{"startTime":1739.28,"endTime":1743.04,"body":"Most projects, certainly wind projects,"},{"startTime":1743.04,"endTime":1745.4,"body":"tend to get refused locally."},{"startTime":1745.4,"endTime":1747.92,"body":"The developers then have to go to an appeal process"},{"startTime":1747.92,"endTime":1750.8,"body":"so that it's then determined at a national level,"},{"startTime":1750.8,"endTime":1754.28,"body":"and then you get a permit after you've gone to appeal."},{"startTime":1754.28,"endTime":1758.24,"body":"So it's not a very streamlined system you've got to run."},{"startTime":1758.24,"endTime":1761.68,"body":"So that for us needs to change fundamentally"},{"startTime":1761.68,"endTime":1763.76,"body":"if we're going to be able to do that."},{"startTime":1763.76,"endTime":1767.24,"body":"- And in terms of the upgrading of the grid,"},{"startTime":1767.24,"endTime":1771.4,"body":"how much of that needs to be physical"},{"startTime":1771.4,"endTime":1773.56,"body":"versus how much of it can be done"},{"startTime":1773.56,"endTime":1775.6000000000001,"body":"using digitization and software?"},{"startTime":1777.28,"endTime":1779.44,"body":"- The software and the digitization"},{"startTime":1779.44,"endTime":1781.64,"body":"that happens centrally with natural grid"},{"startTime":1781.64,"endTime":1784.04,"body":"to ensure that the system is balanced"},{"startTime":1784.04,"endTime":1786.2,"body":"has been upgraded recently."},{"startTime":1786.2,"endTime":1787.92,"body":"It needed to be upgraded because obviously,"},{"startTime":1787.92,"endTime":1788.76,"body":"as I mentioned before,"},{"startTime":1788.76,"endTime":1791.4,"body":"you're moving away from where you could push a button"},{"startTime":1791.4,"endTime":1795.76,"body":"to turn on a big gas peak plant at 400 megawatts."},{"startTime":1795.76,"endTime":1797.44,"body":"Power comes onto the system,"},{"startTime":1797.44,"endTime":1798.88,"body":"large power comes onto the system"},{"startTime":1798.88,"endTime":1801.28,"body":"by just pushing a button for a single asset,"},{"startTime":1801.28,"endTime":1802.3600000000001,"body":"and that's very easy."},{"startTime":1802.3600000000001,"endTime":1803.76,"body":"But now, given that we've got"},{"startTime":1803.76,"endTime":1807.3200000000002,"body":"a much more distributed generation base,"},{"startTime":1807.3200000000002,"endTime":1809.8,"body":"you've got lots of small batteries now"},{"startTime":1809.8,"endTime":1811.3600000000001,"body":"that are coming on the system,"},{"startTime":1811.3600000000001,"endTime":1812.8400000000001,"body":"you've got more renewable assets,"},{"startTime":1812.8400000000001,"endTime":1814.72,"body":"you need to monitor what's going on,"},{"startTime":1814.72,"endTime":1816.72,"body":"your modeling of power generation"},{"startTime":1816.72,"endTime":1819.24,"body":"needs to be very, very sophisticated."},{"startTime":1819.24,"endTime":1820.76,"body":"But that has happened."},{"startTime":1820.76,"endTime":1825.2,"body":"In terms of infrastructure and physical assets on the ground,"},{"startTime":1825.2,"endTime":1829.44,"body":"that's where I think we are still a long way behind."},{"startTime":1829.44,"endTime":1834.44,"body":"We have a issue, like a monopoly position in the UK"},{"startTime":1834.44,"endTime":1836.88,"body":"where the transmission network"},{"startTime":1836.88,"endTime":1841.04,"body":"is fully owned by a single entity, natural grid."},{"startTime":1841.04,"endTime":1843.8400000000001,"body":"It's a private company,"},{"startTime":1843.8400000000001,"endTime":1847.2,"body":"which is for us quite strange"},{"startTime":1847.2,"endTime":1850.3200000000002,"body":"to have a monopoly in this day and age"},{"startTime":1850.3200000000002,"endTime":1852.04,"body":"that's a private company."},{"startTime":1852.04,"endTime":1853.16,"body":"And it's down to them"},{"startTime":1853.16,"endTime":1855.3600000000001,"body":"to deliver that transmission infrastructure."},{"startTime":1855.3600000000001,"endTime":1858.88,"body":"And even if you wanted to develop an asset"},{"startTime":1858.88,"endTime":1861.16,"body":"that connects into the local network,"},{"startTime":1861.16,"endTime":1864.64,"body":"you still have to refer back to transmission network"},{"startTime":1864.64,"endTime":1867.28,"body":"because plugging in a local level"},{"startTime":1867.28,"endTime":1870.6000000000001,"body":"may require some transmission upgrades."},{"startTime":1870.6000000000001,"endTime":1873.68,"body":"So it all comes back to the transmission upgrades"},{"startTime":1873.68,"endTime":1876.1200000000001,"body":"that are needed for all the assets."},{"startTime":1876.1200000000001,"endTime":1880.24,"body":"Our position on that is we need competition in that market."},{"startTime":1880.24,"endTime":1883.68,"body":"We're actually trying to drive that forward ourselves."},{"startTime":1883.68,"endTime":1886.0,"body":"What we would like to do,"},{"startTime":1886.0,"endTime":1887.44,"body":"and we can finance this,"},{"startTime":1888.56,"endTime":1893.04,"body":"is build our own transmission substations"},{"startTime":1893.04,"endTime":1895.16,"body":"underneath the transmission lines ourselves"},{"startTime":1895.16,"endTime":1896.56,"body":"and deliver them ourselves."},{"startTime":1896.56,"endTime":1900.0800000000002,"body":"We can finance those ourselves,"},{"startTime":1900.0800000000002,"endTime":1901.0800000000002,"body":"we can deliver them,"},{"startTime":1901.0800000000002,"endTime":1903.76,"body":"we know we can deliver them fast enough."},{"startTime":1903.76,"endTime":1906.44,"body":"So we can deliver new points of connection"},{"startTime":1906.44,"endTime":1908.68,"body":"on the transmission network"},{"startTime":1908.68,"endTime":1912.04,"body":"that will enable large amounts of new renewables"},{"startTime":1912.04,"endTime":1913.04,"body":"to come onto the system"},{"startTime":1913.04,"endTime":1914.24,"body":"in areas where at the moment"},{"startTime":1914.24,"endTime":1916.04,"body":"there's just no point of connection."},{"startTime":1917.0800000000002,"endTime":1920.04,"body":"And they may be extremely good locations"},{"startTime":1920.04,"endTime":1922.6000000000001,"body":"for all the new assets to sit."},{"startTime":1922.6000000000001,"endTime":1924.16,"body":"And they simply haven't been developed"},{"startTime":1924.16,"endTime":1926.56,"body":"because there isn't a large point of connection."},{"startTime":1926.56,"endTime":1930.92,"body":"We've identified six of those locations"},{"startTime":1930.92,"endTime":1932.96,"body":"on the network so far ourselves"},{"startTime":1932.96,"endTime":1936.04,"body":"where we would like to deliver the substations."},{"startTime":1936.04,"endTime":1939.04,"body":"And new substation at the moment,"},{"startTime":1939.04,"endTime":1941.48,"body":"we're talking around 100 million investment."},{"startTime":1941.48,"endTime":1944.72,"body":"So we're waiting to put 600 million"},{"startTime":1944.72,"endTime":1948.92,"body":"of our own investment into the UK network."},{"startTime":1948.92,"endTime":1950.52,"body":"We currently cannot do that"},{"startTime":1950.52,"endTime":1954.28,"body":"because the electricity license requirements"},{"startTime":1954.28,"endTime":1956.16,"body":"that are set with National Grid"},{"startTime":1956.16,"endTime":1957.92,"body":"prevents us from doing that."},{"startTime":1957.92,"endTime":1960.3600000000001,"body":"We need National Grid to change the green light,"},{"startTime":1960.3600000000001,"endTime":1963.3200000000002,"body":"obviously we're engaging with the regulator"},{"startTime":1963.3200000000002,"endTime":1965.3200000000002,"body":"on this, trying to enable it to happen."},{"startTime":1965.3200000000002,"endTime":1969.0800000000002,"body":"Hopefully we can get there."},{"startTime":1969.0800000000002,"endTime":1972.56,"body":"We already have the ability for competition"},{"startTime":1972.56,"endTime":1974.28,"body":"at the district level."},{"startTime":1974.28,"endTime":1976.56,"body":"So we have what's called an IDNL,"},{"startTime":1976.56,"endTime":1979.72,"body":"an independent distributed network operator."},{"startTime":1979.72,"endTime":1981.1200000000001,"body":"We don't have an ITNL,"},{"startTime":1981.1200000000001,"endTime":1984.0,"body":"an independent transmission network operator."},{"startTime":1984.0,"endTime":1986.0,"body":"Because you need a license for that,"},{"startTime":1986.0,"endTime":1988.04,"body":"often need to change the regulations"},{"startTime":1988.04,"endTime":1989.3600000000001,"body":"for them not to happen."},{"startTime":1989.3600000000001,"endTime":1991.64,"body":"We're hoping that that will happen."},{"startTime":1991.64,"endTime":1993.76,"body":"But again, it's all about timing."},{"startTime":1993.76,"endTime":1995.2,"body":"It needs to happen yesterday."},{"startTime":1995.2,"endTime":1998.8,"body":"We can deliver that additional infrastructure."},{"startTime":1998.8,"endTime":2001.0800000000002,"body":"The issue that National Grid have,"},{"startTime":2001.0800000000002,"endTime":2002.4,"body":"as you might see in the market,"},{"startTime":2002.4,"endTime":2006.48,"body":"is they've had to do a huge fundraising round"},{"startTime":2006.48,"endTime":2008.3600000000001,"body":"over the last 12 months"},{"startTime":2008.3600000000001,"endTime":2010.76,"body":"to get the investment required"},{"startTime":2010.76,"endTime":2014.3600000000001,"body":"to deliver what's needed for CP30."},{"startTime":2014.3600000000001,"endTime":2016.3200000000002,"body":"So you have a single company"},{"startTime":2016.3200000000002,"endTime":2018.44,"body":"struggling to raise sufficient clients"},{"startTime":2018.44,"endTime":2019.8400000000001,"body":"to deliver what's needed"},{"startTime":2019.8400000000001,"endTime":2022.0800000000002,"body":"to upgrade the transmission network."},{"startTime":2022.0800000000002,"endTime":2025.76,"body":"So for us, again, it's not the purpose."},{"startTime":2025.76,"endTime":2027.3200000000002,"body":"So that needs to change."},{"startTime":2027.3200000000002,"endTime":2028.88,"body":"- You mentioned briefly earlier,"},{"startTime":2028.88,"endTime":2030.6000000000001,"body":"AI, mentioning it in passing."},{"startTime":2030.6000000000001,"endTime":2033.2,"body":"I think it's something we need to dig into seeing as"},{"startTime":2033.2,"endTime":2036.0,"body":"everyone's talking about AI."},{"startTime":2036.0,"endTime":2039.64,"body":"And AI obviously is transforming"},{"startTime":2039.64,"endTime":2041.52,"body":"lots of industries at the moment."},{"startTime":2041.52,"endTime":2043.8400000000001,"body":"What role do you see it playing"},{"startTime":2043.8400000000001,"endTime":2046.72,"body":"in making the energy grid smarter?"},{"startTime":2046.72,"endTime":2050.64,"body":"And obviously with AI's own energy demand"},{"startTime":2050.64,"endTime":2053.44,"body":"increasing massively,"},{"startTime":2053.44,"endTime":2055.52,"body":"will that slow down the transition"},{"startTime":2055.52,"endTime":2057.4,"body":"or will it be part of the solution"},{"startTime":2057.4,"endTime":2058.44,"body":"or a bit of both?"},{"startTime":2060.04,"endTime":2065.04,"body":"- So AI has the ability to lower"},{"startTime":2065.04,"endTime":2066.88,"body":"customer prices."},{"startTime":2066.88,"endTime":2068.84,"body":"That's fundamental."},{"startTime":2068.84,"endTime":2072.12,"body":"As we have many, many more"},{"startTime":2072.12,"endTime":2075.0,"body":"very generation assets on the network,"},{"startTime":2075.0,"endTime":2077.28,"body":"you might have a single wind turbine"},{"startTime":2077.28,"endTime":2080.08,"body":"in the South of England."},{"startTime":2080.08,"endTime":2083.32,"body":"You might have a five megawatt solar project in England."},{"startTime":2083.32,"endTime":2085.92,"body":"And you might have a 60 megawatt battery project"},{"startTime":2085.92,"endTime":2086.8,"body":"in the Northwest."},{"startTime":2088.08,"endTime":2093.08,"body":"You're having multiple different assets"},{"startTime":2093.08,"endTime":2094.64,"body":"at the generation level"},{"startTime":2094.64,"endTime":2096.12,"body":"than we did historically."},{"startTime":2096.12,"endTime":2099.4,"body":"And storage assets."},{"startTime":2099.4,"endTime":2101.0,"body":"Equally on the demand side,"},{"startTime":2101.0,"endTime":2105.28,"body":"now that demand users are"},{"startTime":2105.28,"endTime":2107.64,"body":"connecting smartly to Spring Syncs"},{"startTime":2107.64,"endTime":2110.92,"body":"so you can monitor the demand side."},{"startTime":2110.92,"endTime":2114.04,"body":"To optimize the grid"},{"startTime":2114.04,"endTime":2117.44,"body":"will require some kind of AI"},{"startTime":2117.44,"endTime":2118.4,"body":"in the future."},{"startTime":2118.4,"endTime":2123.84,"body":"Because it's only AI that can manage"},{"startTime":2123.84,"endTime":2127.52,"body":"that large, diverse generation"},{"startTime":2127.52,"endTime":2131.0,"body":"and demand on the grid cost-effectively."},{"startTime":2131.0,"endTime":2133.48,"body":"So it definitely has a place."},{"startTime":2133.48,"endTime":2136.68,"body":"Equally, trading, we believe,"},{"startTime":2136.68,"endTime":2139.44,"body":"is gonna move away from half-hour trades."},{"startTime":2139.44,"endTime":2141.2000000000003,"body":"So at the moment, the UK stock market"},{"startTime":2141.2000000000003,"endTime":2143.28,"body":"is trading in half-hour blocks."},{"startTime":2143.28,"endTime":2147.32,"body":"Again, that doesn't optimize pricing."},{"startTime":2147.32,"endTime":2150.04,"body":"Moving towards five-minute trading blocks,"},{"startTime":2150.04,"endTime":2151.84,"body":"or even less,"},{"startTime":2151.84,"endTime":2154.92,"body":"where power is traded in very, very short periods"},{"startTime":2154.92,"endTime":2157.36,"body":"to optimize those trades."},{"startTime":2157.36,"endTime":2160.2400000000002,"body":"All of that is going to bring down pricing."},{"startTime":2160.2400000000002,"endTime":2163.2000000000003,"body":"So it has to be the direction of travel."},{"startTime":2163.2000000000003,"endTime":2165.36,"body":"For us, it's simply how quickly"},{"startTime":2165.36,"endTime":2167.32,"body":"is it going to be implemented."},{"startTime":2167.32,"endTime":2171.32,"body":"And it's only AI that can manage that complexity,"},{"startTime":2171.32,"endTime":2173.32,"body":"where you then go from half-hour trades"},{"startTime":2173.32,"endTime":2174.8,"body":"to five-minute trades."},{"startTime":2174.8,"endTime":2177.36,"body":"And you're then optimally looking at your network."},{"startTime":2177.36,"endTime":2179.8,"body":"Which assets do you turn on,"},{"startTime":2179.8,"endTime":2180.96,"body":"which do you turn off?"},{"startTime":2180.96,"endTime":2185.32,"body":"How do you price solar in a particular five minutes"},{"startTime":2185.32,"endTime":2187.08,"body":"in a particular part of the country"},{"startTime":2187.08,"endTime":2190.0,"body":"to optimize prices for the consumer, et cetera?"},{"startTime":2190.0,"endTime":2191.84,"body":"And on top of that,"},{"startTime":2191.84,"endTime":2192.68,"body":"laid on top of that,"},{"startTime":2192.68,"endTime":2197.68,"body":"which is an increasingly complex modeling requirement,"},{"startTime":2197.68,"endTime":2200.84,"body":"is looking at weather patterns."},{"startTime":2200.84,"endTime":2204.12,"body":"In granular detail across the country."},{"startTime":2204.12,"endTime":2206.48,"body":"So you can forecast, for instance,"},{"startTime":2206.48,"endTime":2208.6,"body":"on a very, very short timeframe,"},{"startTime":2208.6,"endTime":2210.52,"body":"what is the wind generation going to be"},{"startTime":2210.52,"endTime":2214.0,"body":"for a particular wind farm in a particular location,"},{"startTime":2214.0,"endTime":2217.56,"body":"and solar in a particular part of the country"},{"startTime":2217.56,"endTime":2218.96,"body":"on a particular day."},{"startTime":2218.96,"endTime":2221.4,"body":"When we look at weather forecasting,"},{"startTime":2221.4,"endTime":2224.04,"body":"the Met Office does for the UK,"},{"startTime":2224.04,"endTime":2226.2000000000003,"body":"they have supercomputers"},{"startTime":2226.2000000000003,"endTime":2228.6,"body":"running incredibly sophisticated models"},{"startTime":2228.6,"endTime":2231.16,"body":"already to forecast the weather."},{"startTime":2231.16,"endTime":2235.16,"body":"So putting that into the grid network"},{"startTime":2235.16,"endTime":2237.52,"body":"with all the complexity that's going to come,"},{"startTime":2237.52,"endTime":2240.08,"body":"absolutely is going to need AI."},{"startTime":2240.08,"endTime":2241.32,"body":"But it's going to result"},{"startTime":2241.32,"endTime":2243.88,"body":"in much lower prices for consumers."},{"startTime":2243.88,"endTime":2246.28,"body":"- You mentioned at the very start as well"},{"startTime":2246.28,"endTime":2249.52,"body":"that NatPower is now getting into"},{"startTime":2249.52,"endTime":2251.4,"body":"the maritime space as well."},{"startTime":2251.4,"endTime":2254.4,"body":"Talk to me a little bit about that."},{"startTime":2254.4,"endTime":2255.28,"body":"- This is being missed."},{"startTime":2255.28,"endTime":2257.2400000000002,"body":"This space is being missed by,"},{"startTime":2257.2400000000002,"endTime":2258.64,"body":"certainly by the UK government,"},{"startTime":2258.64,"endTime":2261.56,"body":"I think by most governments internationally."},{"startTime":2261.56,"endTime":2265.32,"body":"It's decarbonization of transport"},{"startTime":2265.32,"endTime":2267.8,"body":"in terms of onshore, so cars and trucks."},{"startTime":2267.8,"endTime":2268.88,"body":"Everybody's aware of that."},{"startTime":2268.88,"endTime":2270.96,"body":"Everybody's taking it into their modeling"},{"startTime":2270.96,"endTime":2273.8,"body":"in terms of the uptake of electrification"},{"startTime":2273.8,"endTime":2275.32,"body":"of that sector."},{"startTime":2275.32,"endTime":2277.88,"body":"The electrification of the shipping industry"},{"startTime":2277.88,"endTime":2279.28,"body":"seems to be missing."},{"startTime":2279.28,"endTime":2282.12,"body":"The shipping industry have been sitting on the fence"},{"startTime":2282.12,"endTime":2284.12,"body":"in terms of the direction of travel"},{"startTime":2284.12,"endTime":2286.4,"body":"for decarbonization of vessels."},{"startTime":2287.16,"endTime":2289.64,"body":"Whether they went down the hydrogen route,"},{"startTime":2289.64,"endTime":2293.12,"body":"whether they go for biofuels or electrification."},{"startTime":2293.12,"endTime":2296.52,"body":"What we're now seeing emerging is,"},{"startTime":2296.52,"endTime":2298.64,"body":"as we did in the car industry,"},{"startTime":2298.64,"endTime":2299.84,"body":"they moved away from hydrogen"},{"startTime":2299.84,"endTime":2302.32,"body":"and they focused on electrification batteries."},{"startTime":2302.32,"endTime":2304.96,"body":"That's happened in shipping industry."},{"startTime":2304.96,"endTime":2307.64,"body":"Because the price of batteries has come down dramatically,"},{"startTime":2307.64,"endTime":2310.2400000000002,"body":"the energy density has gone up so high."},{"startTime":2310.2400000000002,"endTime":2313.2000000000003,"body":"We have a requirement already in terms of legislation"},{"startTime":2313.2000000000003,"endTime":2316.48,"body":"in Europe where when vessels come alongside,"},{"startTime":2316.48,"endTime":2319.68,"body":"they have to turn their engines off"},{"startTime":2319.68,"endTime":2323.16,"body":"and they have to plug into the power supply port."},{"startTime":2323.16,"endTime":2326.32,"body":"That was actually mostly driven by the air polishing issue"},{"startTime":2326.32,"endTime":2329.4,"body":"with vessels at ports running their engines"},{"startTime":2329.4,"endTime":2331.4,"body":"to maintain the power supply that they needed"},{"startTime":2331.4,"endTime":2333.56,"body":"in the vessel while they were onside."},{"startTime":2333.56,"endTime":2335.76,"body":"And it's one of the dirtiest fuels in the world,"},{"startTime":2335.76,"endTime":2338.16,"body":"onshore, very, very thick, heavy oil."},{"startTime":2338.16,"endTime":2341.76,"body":"So vessels now come onside"},{"startTime":2341.76,"endTime":2345.2000000000003,"body":"and they have to plug into the power supply at the ports."},{"startTime":2345.2000000000003,"endTime":2349.12,"body":"That requirement is now spreading internationally."},{"startTime":2349.12,"endTime":2351.8,"body":"So that's the first thing that needs to be taken into account"},{"startTime":2351.8,"endTime":2355.44,"body":"is all the vessels in your country"},{"startTime":2355.44,"endTime":2359.68,"body":"suddenly now plugging into shore power and requiring power."},{"startTime":2359.68,"endTime":2363.28,"body":"And the additional power demand that that requires"},{"startTime":2363.28,"endTime":2365.96,"body":"from the network is much, much higher"},{"startTime":2365.96,"endTime":2368.4,"body":"than anybody has considered in the past."},{"startTime":2368.4,"endTime":2371.4,"body":"So decarbonizing the shipping industry"},{"startTime":2371.4,"endTime":2375.6,"body":"is gonna put an increasing volume"},{"startTime":2375.6,"endTime":2378.68,"body":"on the demand side at your network."},{"startTime":2378.68,"endTime":2381.96,"body":"And it's intermittent."},{"startTime":2381.96,"endTime":2385.04,"body":"It's dependent on when the vessels come alongside."},{"startTime":2385.04,"endTime":2387.2400000000002,"body":"What we're also now seeing emerge"},{"startTime":2387.2400000000002,"endTime":2390.56,"body":"is the electrification of the proportional vessel."},{"startTime":2390.56,"endTime":2394.52,"body":"So we're already seeing orders being placed,"},{"startTime":2394.52,"endTime":2397.08,"body":"for instance, a fully electric cross-channel service"},{"startTime":2397.08,"endTime":2398.04,"body":"from day to time."},{"startTime":2399.36,"endTime":2401.92,"body":"So not only are you having to supply the power"},{"startTime":2401.92,"endTime":2403.44,"body":"of the vessels when they're onside,"},{"startTime":2403.44,"endTime":2405.92,"body":"you now also have to charge the batteries up"},{"startTime":2405.92,"endTime":2407.52,"body":"when they're alongside."},{"startTime":2407.52,"endTime":2410.96,"body":"So we've got fully electric orders being placed"},{"startTime":2410.96,"endTime":2415.16,"body":"for short trips now, vessels that do short trips."},{"startTime":2415.16,"endTime":2420.88,"body":"The next stage will be, what we think is gonna happen"},{"startTime":2420.88,"endTime":2425.12,"body":"is the hybridization of the international vessels"},{"startTime":2425.12,"endTime":2426.56,"body":"that do long distance."},{"startTime":2426.56,"endTime":2428.32,"body":"Because obviously at the moment,"},{"startTime":2428.32,"endTime":2431.52,"body":"it's not possible to supply those vessels"},{"startTime":2431.52,"endTime":2433.6,"body":"with propulsion that's purely electric"},{"startTime":2433.6,"endTime":2438.6,"body":"the entire duration of say a 10,000 kilometer journey."},{"startTime":2438.6,"endTime":2439.8,"body":"- Yeah."},{"startTime":2439.8,"endTime":2442.84,"body":"- So the next step is going to be hybridization."},{"startTime":2442.84,"endTime":2444.56,"body":"We think that that's gonna take the form"},{"startTime":2444.56,"endTime":2448.12,"body":"of batteries being placed on those vessels"},{"startTime":2448.12,"endTime":2450.0,"body":"that when they are, for instance,"},{"startTime":2450.0,"endTime":2453.28,"body":"within 200 nautical miles of their port,"},{"startTime":2453.28,"endTime":2456.6,"body":"they have to turn off their engines and go from electric."},{"startTime":2456.6,"endTime":2458.4,"body":"So that's gonna be the next stage"},{"startTime":2458.4,"endTime":2460.84,"body":"that we see in the shipping industry"},{"startTime":2460.84,"endTime":2462.2400000000002,"body":"for those type of vessels."},{"startTime":2462.2400000000002,"endTime":2466.52,"body":"Now, what is the long term propulsion solution?"},{"startTime":2466.52,"endTime":2467.92,"body":"It's still up in the air."},{"startTime":2467.92,"endTime":2470.8,"body":"We believe that it's probably gonna be biofuels"},{"startTime":2470.8,"endTime":2473.7200000000003,"body":"with a mixture of batteries."},{"startTime":2473.7200000000003,"endTime":2477.7200000000003,"body":"So it's a hybrid battery biofuel propulsion"},{"startTime":2477.7200000000003,"endTime":2479.0,"body":"in those type of vessels."},{"startTime":2479.0,"endTime":2483.52,"body":"So when you model out the power requirements"},{"startTime":2483.52,"endTime":2486.84,"body":"for the international shipping industry at various ports,"},{"startTime":2486.84,"endTime":2491.48,"body":"what we're finding is that the majority of ports"},{"startTime":2491.48,"endTime":2493.6,"body":"that we looked at around the world"},{"startTime":2493.6,"endTime":2497.36,"body":"don't have a sufficient power supply today"},{"startTime":2497.36,"endTime":2500.0,"body":"to be able to satisfy what the vessels"},{"startTime":2500.0,"endTime":2502.16,"body":"are going to need to decarbonize."},{"startTime":2502.16,"endTime":2504.44,"body":"And so part of what we're doing as our business"},{"startTime":2504.44,"endTime":2506.56,"body":"is looking to resolve that."},{"startTime":2506.56,"endTime":2511.56,"body":"So we are developing now solutions whereby"},{"startTime":2511.88,"endTime":2515.52,"body":"we will deliver additional power supply to the ports."},{"startTime":2515.52,"endTime":2519.04,"body":"We'll put battery storage at the ports"},{"startTime":2519.04,"endTime":2521.16,"body":"to help with the intermixing issue."},{"startTime":2521.16,"endTime":2524.64,"body":"And we're also going to start installing plugs"},{"startTime":2524.64,"endTime":2527.96,"body":"and common plugs that the vessels can plug into"},{"startTime":2527.96,"endTime":2529.4,"body":"when they're at the berth."},{"startTime":2529.4,"endTime":2533.44,"body":"And a typical plug will be five to 10 megawatts each."},{"startTime":2533.44,"endTime":2534.68,"body":"So they are not slow."},{"startTime":2534.68,"endTime":2538.52,"body":"Are you talking about two or 3 million capex for each plug?"},{"startTime":2538.52,"endTime":2541.44,"body":"So that's what we're getting involved in internationally."},{"startTime":2541.44,"endTime":2544.48,"body":"What we're trying to do as well is strategically target"},{"startTime":2544.48,"endTime":2547.08,"body":"where we deliver those assets"},{"startTime":2547.08,"endTime":2549.92,"body":"so that a particular shipping company"},{"startTime":2549.92,"endTime":2553.28,"body":"can have a solution with that power marine"},{"startTime":2553.28,"endTime":2557.76,"body":"so we can supply them with power at each one of the ports"},{"startTime":2557.76,"endTime":2561.48,"body":"that their ships stop at on their typical route."},{"startTime":2561.48,"endTime":2566.28,"body":"- If you could wave a magic wand"},{"startTime":2566.28,"endTime":2570.12,"body":"and instantly fix one thing about the UK's energy transition,"},{"startTime":2570.12,"endTime":2570.96,"body":"what would it be?"},{"startTime":2571.96,"endTime":2573.96,"body":"- Can I have a few wands?"},{"startTime":2573.96,"endTime":2576.2000000000003,"body":"(laughing)"},{"startTime":2576.2000000000003,"endTime":2581.16,"body":"For me at the moment, it would be enabling"},{"startTime":2581.16,"endTime":2586.36,"body":"an independent party to deliver their own grid connections"},{"startTime":2586.36,"endTime":2590.8,"body":"because grid is the biggest issue, I think,"},{"startTime":2590.8,"endTime":2592.88,"body":"for the whole of the industry in the UK"},{"startTime":2592.88,"endTime":2594.48,"body":"is getting connection."},{"startTime":2594.48,"endTime":2599.48,"body":"And National Grid have under-invested in the grid"},{"startTime":2600.48,"endTime":2602.76,"body":"under-invested, they're gonna struggle"},{"startTime":2602.76,"endTime":2605.36,"body":"to meet requirements of CP30."},{"startTime":2605.36,"endTime":2609.08,"body":"We believe that if we can deliver our own"},{"startTime":2609.08,"endTime":2611.12,"body":"under the people's connections,"},{"startTime":2611.12,"endTime":2616.12,"body":"we will not only unlock the lock jam in connection,"},{"startTime":2616.12,"endTime":2620.56,"body":"but we will also enable a greater amount of renewables"},{"startTime":2620.56,"endTime":2623.7200000000003,"body":"onto the network sooner for everybody"},{"startTime":2623.7200000000003,"endTime":2625.7200000000003,"body":"by creating new parts."},{"startTime":2625.7200000000003,"endTime":2629.12,"body":"- Okay, left field question for you, John."},{"startTime":2629.12,"endTime":2634.12,"body":"If you could have any person or character,"},{"startTime":2634.12,"endTime":2638.12,"body":"alive or dead, real or fictional,"},{"startTime":2638.12,"endTime":2641.7200000000003,"body":"as a spokesperson or an evangelist"},{"startTime":2641.7200000000003,"endTime":2645.76,"body":"for grid decarbonization, who would it be and why?"},{"startTime":2645.76,"endTime":2650.64,"body":"- Ooh, what a question."},{"startTime":2650.64,"endTime":2654.88,"body":"Probably one of my heroes of Einstein,"},{"startTime":2654.88,"endTime":2658.04,"body":"I think if he were alive today,"},{"startTime":2658.04,"endTime":2659.8,"body":"given the respect that he has"},{"startTime":2659.8,"endTime":2662.32,"body":"and everybody knows him internationally,"},{"startTime":2662.32,"endTime":2664.68,"body":"if he were to be our spokesperson"},{"startTime":2664.68,"endTime":2666.12,"body":"for grid decarbonization,"},{"startTime":2666.12,"endTime":2670.08,"body":"I'd say that would be an incredible thing to see."},{"startTime":2670.08,"endTime":2671.6,"body":"Everybody would pay attention."},{"startTime":2671.6,"endTime":2675.68,"body":"- Nice, nice, I like it, great."},{"startTime":2675.68,"endTime":2677.92,"body":"John, we're coming towards the end of the podcast."},{"startTime":2677.92,"endTime":2681.76,"body":"Is there any question I did not ask that you wish I did"},{"startTime":2681.76,"endTime":2684.36,"body":"or any aspect of this we haven't touched on"},{"startTime":2684.36,"endTime":2687.2000000000003,"body":"that you think it's important for people to be aware of?"},{"startTime":2687.2000000000003,"endTime":2692.2000000000003,"body":"- I think just the point on community engagement"},{"startTime":2692.2000000000003,"endTime":2695.8,"body":"to me is important."},{"startTime":2695.8,"endTime":2701.08,"body":"When you look at what you're trying to deliver"},{"startTime":2701.08,"endTime":2705.12,"body":"on the ground as a passionate energy transition company,"},{"startTime":2705.12,"endTime":2708.2000000000003,"body":"there is a lot of opposition generally locally."},{"startTime":2708.2000000000003,"endTime":2711.52,"body":"There's a lot of misinformation on the assets"},{"startTime":2711.52,"endTime":2713.44,"body":"that we like delivering in the market."},{"startTime":2713.44,"endTime":2718.44,"body":"I think that came from propositioning that industry"},{"startTime":2718.44,"endTime":2723.12,"body":"when renewables really started to take off,"},{"startTime":2723.12,"endTime":2725.16,"body":"wasn't addressed correctly."},{"startTime":2725.16,"endTime":2728.76,"body":"I think if we can bring local communities"},{"startTime":2728.76,"endTime":2731.56,"body":"more along the journey with us"},{"startTime":2731.56,"endTime":2736.56,"body":"and give them real tangible benefits for hosting projects,"},{"startTime":2736.56,"endTime":2742.76,"body":"to make that a much smoother ride,"},{"startTime":2742.76,"endTime":2744.92,"body":"to actually deliver those assets,"},{"startTime":2744.92,"endTime":2748.48,"body":"that for me needs a lot more attention, a lot more focus."},{"startTime":2748.48,"endTime":2752.48,"body":"When you look at general surveys for a population,"},{"startTime":2752.48,"endTime":2755.6,"body":"say in the UK, the vast majority of people"},{"startTime":2755.6,"endTime":2758.6,"body":"are premiums, the vast majority."},{"startTime":2758.6,"endTime":2761.2400000000002,"body":"But a lot of assets get turned down"},{"startTime":2761.2400000000002,"endTime":2764.16,"body":"because the local communities where those assets are going"},{"startTime":2764.16,"endTime":2766.44,"body":"are not brought on site."},{"startTime":2766.44,"endTime":2771.16,"body":"Particularly, for instance, when it comes to things"},{"startTime":2771.16,"endTime":2773.2000000000003,"body":"like visual impact of wind turbines,"},{"startTime":2773.2000000000003,"endTime":2776.28,"body":"I mean, it's a very subjective view"},{"startTime":2776.28,"endTime":2779.0,"body":"as to whether a wind turbine looks graceful"},{"startTime":2779.0,"endTime":2781.6,"body":"or is a blight on the landscape."},{"startTime":2781.6,"endTime":2783.88,"body":"I'm not talking about putting them in national parks,"},{"startTime":2783.88,"endTime":2786.28,"body":"I'm just talking about putting them in the general landscape."},{"startTime":2786.28,"endTime":2790.84,"body":"So the best solution is to get local community on site."},{"startTime":2790.84,"endTime":2793.88,"body":"The alternate solution, which is not optimal,"},{"startTime":2793.88,"endTime":2795.84,"body":"is to have decisions made centrally,"},{"startTime":2795.84,"endTime":2799.56,"body":"as I mentioned earlier, to enable them to be delivered."},{"startTime":2799.56,"endTime":2803.6,"body":"But the population does need to be brought"},{"startTime":2803.6,"endTime":2807.36,"body":"further into the argument and seeing justification"},{"startTime":2807.36,"endTime":2809.28,"body":"for why we're doing what we're doing."},{"startTime":2809.28,"endTime":2811.88,"body":"That it is going to better the economy."},{"startTime":2811.88,"endTime":2814.12,"body":"It's, for instance, for the UK, decarbonised green,"},{"startTime":2814.12,"endTime":2815.92,"body":"it's going to take us off gas."},{"startTime":2815.92,"endTime":2818.36,"body":"Imagine the impact that's going to have on the economy"},{"startTime":2818.36,"endTime":2820.88,"body":"where you no longer have the huge fluctuations"},{"startTime":2820.88,"endTime":2824.4,"body":"in gas prices, going from super high prices"},{"startTime":2824.4,"endTime":2826.04,"body":"to very low gas prices."},{"startTime":2826.04,"endTime":2828.2000000000003,"body":"Nobody knows what gas prices are going to be next year,"},{"startTime":2828.2000000000003,"endTime":2829.16,"body":"for instance."},{"startTime":2829.16,"endTime":2832.08,"body":"How can a business plan?"},{"startTime":2832.08,"endTime":2834.56,"body":"If you take gas completely off the network,"},{"startTime":2834.56,"endTime":2838.2000000000003,"body":"the huge economic benefits for everybody,"},{"startTime":2838.2000000000003,"endTime":2841.2000000000003,"body":"that story hasn't been told yet."},{"startTime":2841.2000000000003,"endTime":2845.68,"body":"So I think we have a public relations issue"},{"startTime":2845.68,"endTime":2847.08,"body":"that we need to address."},{"startTime":2847.08,"endTime":2850.4,"body":"That, to me, would need a lot more investigation,"},{"startTime":2850.4,"endTime":2851.56,"body":"a lot more questions."},{"startTime":2851.56,"endTime":2852.92,"body":"How do we do that?"},{"startTime":2852.92,"endTime":2854.92,"body":"How is it best to deliver that?"},{"startTime":2854.92,"endTime":2857.7200000000003,"body":"How do you get local people more involved?"},{"startTime":2857.7200000000003,"endTime":2861.28,"body":"And how do you get the national story across to people?"},{"startTime":2861.28,"endTime":2863.2400000000002,"body":"Where you do have the likes of Donald Trump"},{"startTime":2863.2400000000002,"endTime":2866.12,"body":"that's saying, \"Drill, baby, drill.\""},{"startTime":2866.12,"endTime":2869.92,"body":"It doesn't make sense economically."},{"startTime":2869.92,"endTime":2874.4,"body":"So that, for me, I think, would be an energy investigation."},{"startTime":2874.4,"endTime":2877.52,"body":"- John, if people would like to know more about yourself"},{"startTime":2877.52,"endTime":2880.44,"body":"or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"startTime":2880.44,"endTime":2882.68,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"startTime":2882.68,"endTime":2884.2000000000003,"body":"- The NetPow website."},{"startTime":2884.2000000000003,"endTime":2887.36,"body":"We've got a very good NetPow website."},{"startTime":2887.36,"endTime":2889.28,"body":"People can go look at the website,"},{"startTime":2889.28,"endTime":2891.08,"body":"see the projects that you're doing."},{"startTime":2891.08,"endTime":2895.28,"body":"I've got my programs on Intents,"},{"startTime":2895.28,"endTime":2898.04,"body":"where people can go there and look at my background."},{"startTime":2898.04,"endTime":2900.52,"body":"I'm more than happy for them to message me as well"},{"startTime":2900.52,"endTime":2901.44,"body":"if they want to do that."},{"startTime":2901.44,"endTime":2902.88,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2902.88,"endTime":2904.28,"body":"- Great, fantastic."},{"startTime":2904.28,"endTime":2905.52,"body":"John, that's been fascinating."},{"startTime":2905.52,"endTime":2907.88,"body":"Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today."},{"startTime":2907.88,"endTime":2908.7200000000003,"body":"- You're welcome, Tom."},{"startTime":2908.7200000000003,"endTime":2910.48,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"startTime":2910.48,"endTime":2913.0,"body":"- Okay, we've come to the end of the show."},{"startTime":2913.0,"endTime":2915.0,"body":"Thanks, everyone, for listening."},{"startTime":2915.0,"endTime":2916.08,"body":"If you'd like to know more"},{"startTime":2916.08,"endTime":2918.12,"body":"about the Climate Confident podcast,"},{"startTime":2918.12,"endTime":2923.12,"body":"feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery@outlook.com"},{"startTime":2923.12,"endTime":2927.4,"body":"or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"startTime":2927.4,"endTime":2928.52,"body":"If you liked the show,"},{"startTime":2928.52,"endTime":2930.84,"body":"please don't forget to click follow on it"},{"startTime":2930.84,"endTime":2932.84,"body":"in your podcast application of choice"},{"startTime":2932.84,"endTime":2936.2400000000002,"body":"to get new episodes as soon as they're published."},{"startTime":2936.2400000000002,"endTime":2939.44,"body":"Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast."},{"startTime":2939.44,"endTime":2943.0,"body":"It really does help new people to find the show."},{"startTime":2943.0,"endTime":2944.12,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":2944.12,"endTime":2945.32,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}