{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":3.618,"endTime":7.588,"body":"I like to refer to trees as the original"},{"startTime":3.618,"endTime":7.588,"body":"direct air capture machine, right."},{"startTime":7.768,"endTime":14.368,"body":"Refined through, I think it's about 370"},{"startTime":7.768,"endTime":14.368,"body":"million years of natural engineering,"},{"startTime":14.428,"endTime":15.688,"body":"making them super effective."},{"startTime":15.688,"endTime":18.728,"body":"It's quite hard to replicate this"},{"startTime":15.688,"endTime":18.728,"body":"in a lab, on a short timeline."},{"startTime":19.157,"endTime":22.757,"body":"Good morning, good afternoon, or good"},{"startTime":19.157,"endTime":22.757,"body":"evening, wherever you are in the world."},{"startTime":23.297,"endTime":27.437,"body":"Welcome to episode 220 of the"},{"startTime":23.297,"endTime":27.437,"body":"Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to"},{"startTime":27.437,"endTime":31.547,"body":"show for best practices in climate"},{"startTime":27.437,"endTime":31.547,"body":"emission reductions and removals."},{"startTime":32.327,"endTime":35.747,"body":"I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and if"},{"startTime":32.327,"endTime":35.747,"body":"you haven't already, be sure to follow"},{"startTime":35.747,"endTime":40.037,"body":"the podcast in your podcast app at"},{"startTime":35.747,"endTime":40.037,"body":"choice so you never miss an episode."},{"startTime":40.599,"endTime":44.649,"body":"Before we get going, a huge thank you to"},{"startTime":40.599,"endTime":44.649,"body":"this podcast's, incredible supporters."},{"startTime":44.799,"endTime":48.189,"body":"Your backing keeps this podcast"},{"startTime":44.799,"endTime":48.189,"body":"going and I truly appreciate"},{"startTime":48.429,"endTime":49.689,"body":"each and every one of you."},{"startTime":50.649,"endTime":53.469,"body":"If you'd like to join our community,"},{"startTime":50.649,"endTime":53.469,"body":"you can support the show for as little"},{"startTime":53.469,"endTime":56.469,"body":"as three euros or dollars, which is"},{"startTime":53.469,"endTime":56.469,"body":"less than the cost of a cup of coffee."},{"startTime":56.739,"endTime":59.619,"body":"You just click the support"},{"startTime":56.739,"endTime":59.619,"body":"link in the show notes or"},{"startTime":59.619,"endTime":63.669,"body":"visit tinyurl.com/climate pod."},{"startTime":64.629,"endTime":69.059,"body":"Now you know how people say we need"},{"startTime":64.629,"endTime":69.059,"body":"more trees to fight climate change."},{"startTime":69.769,"endTime":72.594,"body":"Well, today's guest is actually"},{"startTime":69.769,"endTime":72.594,"body":"doing something about it and not in"},{"startTime":72.594,"endTime":75.204,"body":"some vague plant a tree kind of way."},{"startTime":76.064,"endTime":81.444,"body":"Lisett Luik is building what she"},{"startTime":76.064,"endTime":81.444,"body":"calls the new forest economy, helping"},{"startTime":81.444,"endTime":86.124,"body":"landowners across Europe turn empty"},{"startTime":81.444,"endTime":86.124,"body":"or underused land into thriving"},{"startTime":86.124,"endTime":91.314,"body":"forests that pull carbon out of the"},{"startTime":86.124,"endTime":91.314,"body":"air and pay the landowners to do it."},{"startTime":92.244,"endTime":97.081,"body":"More importantly, she's not doing it with"},{"startTime":92.244,"endTime":97.081,"body":"clipboards and gut feeling, she's using"},{"startTime":97.081,"endTime":102.271,"body":"data, satellite imagery, and digital"},{"startTime":97.081,"endTime":102.271,"body":"twins to make forest carbon projects more"},{"startTime":102.271,"endTime":105.571,"body":"transparent, measurable, and trustworthy."},{"startTime":106.031,"endTime":109.271,"body":"If you've ever wondered whether"},{"startTime":106.031,"endTime":109.271,"body":"nature-based carbon removal is really"},{"startTime":109.481,"endTime":113.171,"body":"a serious solution, or just another"},{"startTime":109.481,"endTime":113.171,"body":"feel good headline, stick around."},{"startTime":113.741,"endTime":117.701,"body":"This conversation might change how"},{"startTime":113.741,"endTime":117.701,"body":"you think about forests, carbon"},{"startTime":117.701,"endTime":122.111,"body":"markets, and the real potential of"},{"startTime":117.701,"endTime":122.111,"body":"nature and tech working together."},{"startTime":122.926,"endTime":125.656,"body":"Before we get into that, in the"},{"startTime":122.926,"endTime":125.656,"body":"coming weeks, I'll be speaking"},{"startTime":125.656,"endTime":129.316,"body":"to Brian Parks, who's head of"},{"startTime":125.656,"endTime":129.316,"body":"Innovation Acceleration for Zespri."},{"startTime":129.316,"endTime":131.457,"body":"We'll be talking about their Zag Fund."},{"startTime":131.857,"endTime":135.672,"body":"Angel Hsu, Professor at the"},{"startTime":131.857,"endTime":135.672,"body":"University of North Carolina Chapel"},{"startTime":135.672,"endTime":140.202,"body":"Hill, and we'll be talking about"},{"startTime":135.672,"endTime":140.202,"body":"generative AI net zero tools."},{"startTime":141.722,"endTime":148.032,"body":"Sangeeta Waldron, author of What"},{"startTime":141.722,"endTime":148.032,"body":"Will Your Legacy Be and Ciaran"},{"startTime":148.032,"endTime":152.451,"body":"Flanagan,   who is the global head"},{"startTime":148.032,"endTime":152.451,"body":"of Siemens Data Center Solutions, so"},{"startTime":152.751,"endTime":154.641,"body":"some excellent episodes coming up."},{"startTime":154.641,"endTime":157.521,"body":"But as I mentioned, my"},{"startTime":154.641,"endTime":157.521,"body":"guest today is Lisett."},{"startTime":157.791,"endTime":158.281,"body":"Lisett,."},{"startTime":159.021,"endTime":160.221,"body":"Welcome to the podcast."},{"startTime":160.221,"endTime":162.051,"body":"Would you like to introduce yourself?"},{"startTime":162.639,"endTime":163.009,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":163.019,"endTime":164.399,"body":"Thank you for having me, Tom."},{"startTime":164.779,"endTime":166.169,"body":"So my name is Lisett."},{"startTime":166.189,"endTime":169.779,"body":"I'm the co founder of Arbonics."},{"startTime":169.779,"endTime":175.289,"body":"Arbonics is using data and technology"},{"startTime":169.779,"endTime":175.289,"body":"to help bridge the gap between"},{"startTime":175.409,"endTime":179.369,"body":"landowners who want to do more to"},{"startTime":175.409,"endTime":179.369,"body":"store carbon in their forests and"},{"startTime":179.369,"endTime":185.069,"body":"companies who want to support forests"},{"startTime":179.369,"endTime":185.069,"body":"to compensate for their CO2 footprint."},{"startTime":185.399,"endTime":187.699,"body":"We can talk more about how"},{"startTime":185.399,"endTime":187.699,"body":"exactly that works later."},{"startTime":188.844,"endTime":189.124,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":189.134,"endTime":189.574,"body":"Superb."},{"startTime":189.994,"endTime":191.224,"body":"And why?"},{"startTime":191.764,"endTime":196.254,"body":"As in, give me a little bit"},{"startTime":191.764,"endTime":196.254,"body":"of the backstory to Arbonics."},{"startTime":196.274,"endTime":197.434,"body":"You're one of the co founders."},{"startTime":197.844,"endTime":203.164,"body":"So, what made you decide to"},{"startTime":197.844,"endTime":203.164,"body":"set up a forestry data company?"},{"startTime":204.284,"endTime":205.114,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":205.184,"endTime":208.074,"body":"I think the first thing that put"},{"startTime":205.184,"endTime":208.074,"body":"me on this path, which I didn't get"},{"startTime":208.084,"endTime":210.234,"body":"to choose is being born in Estonia."},{"startTime":210.484,"endTime":211.624,"body":"So I am Estonian."},{"startTime":211.984,"endTime":215.854,"body":"Estonians, I have heard us"},{"startTime":211.984,"endTime":215.854,"body":"described as forest loving pagans."},{"startTime":216.394,"endTime":218.374,"body":"Half of our country is covered in forest."},{"startTime":218.874,"endTime":222.549,"body":"And, you know, in central"},{"startTime":218.874,"endTime":222.549,"body":"Europe, when fairy tales, bad"},{"startTime":222.549,"endTime":223.639,"body":"things happen in the forest."},{"startTime":223.639,"endTime":226.039,"body":"Hansel and Gretel go to the"},{"startTime":223.639,"endTime":226.039,"body":"forest and the witch eats them."},{"startTime":226.319,"endTime":229.649,"body":"In Estonia, forests are where"},{"startTime":226.319,"endTime":229.649,"body":"you go for safety and for peace."},{"startTime":229.999,"endTime":233.729,"body":"So that's the first thing is, you know, a"},{"startTime":229.999,"endTime":233.729,"body":"love of forest kind of runs in my blood."},{"startTime":234.159,"endTime":239.329,"body":"But then more practically, I was"},{"startTime":234.159,"endTime":239.329,"body":"working in investments and investing"},{"startTime":239.419,"endTime":242.369,"body":"in forest land, which is also"},{"startTime":239.419,"endTime":242.369,"body":"where I met my now co founder."},{"startTime":242.799,"endTime":248.699,"body":"And in the process, we discovered that"},{"startTime":242.799,"endTime":248.699,"body":"if you are a forest owner with a strong"},{"startTime":248.699,"endTime":253.139,"body":"climate focus, You don't, didn't really"},{"startTime":248.699,"endTime":253.139,"body":"have a lot of options on the table"},{"startTime":253.199,"endTime":256.899,"body":"because the primary way to get money"},{"startTime":253.199,"endTime":256.899,"body":"out of your forest is through cutting"},{"startTime":256.899,"endTime":260.529,"body":"it down and selling the timber which"},{"startTime":256.899,"endTime":260.529,"body":"might not be what you want to do if you"},{"startTime":260.529,"endTime":262.669,"body":"want to protect the natural environment."},{"startTime":263.009,"endTime":267.309,"body":"And so we built Arbonics to solve"},{"startTime":263.009,"endTime":267.309,"body":"this problem that we initially had"},{"startTime":267.319,"endTime":271.789,"body":"ourselves as investors and landowners"},{"startTime":267.319,"endTime":271.789,"body":"in the investment firm we were working"},{"startTime":271.789,"endTime":276.579,"body":"in, which was how do I bring more"},{"startTime":271.789,"endTime":276.579,"body":"of the other value forests provide?"},{"startTime":276.579,"endTime":280.849,"body":"So timber is one layer, then you"},{"startTime":276.579,"endTime":280.849,"body":"have carbon, you have biodiversity."},{"startTime":281.229,"endTime":285.709,"body":"How do I bring those other layers of"},{"startTime":281.229,"endTime":285.709,"body":"value into the investment equation to"},{"startTime":285.709,"endTime":290.449,"body":"drive more what I would call positive"},{"startTime":285.709,"endTime":290.449,"body":"behavior or more sort of nature positive"},{"startTime":290.449,"endTime":293.489,"body":"behavior, where the answer isn't"},{"startTime":290.449,"endTime":293.489,"body":"always just cut the whole thing down."},{"startTime":294.187,"endTime":294.427,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":294.467,"endTime":297.617,"body":"And what would you say has"},{"startTime":294.467,"endTime":297.617,"body":"surprised you most in your"},{"startTime":297.627,"endTime":299.207,"body":"journey to where you are today?"},{"startTime":300.952,"endTime":305.852,"body":"So my own background is, I guess,"},{"startTime":300.952,"endTime":305.852,"body":"quite common for a startup founder,"},{"startTime":305.852,"endTime":307.422,"body":"not so common for a forester."},{"startTime":307.432,"endTime":310.252,"body":"You know, I used to work in financial"},{"startTime":307.432,"endTime":310.252,"body":"services and then other startups."},{"startTime":310.862,"endTime":314.032,"body":"And so I didn't probably know"},{"startTime":310.862,"endTime":314.032,"body":"that much about the actual"},{"startTime":314.162,"endTime":315.862,"body":"business of forestry management."},{"startTime":316.462,"endTime":320.562,"body":"And I had perhaps bought a little bit"},{"startTime":316.462,"endTime":320.562,"body":"too much into I don't know propaganda"},{"startTime":320.572,"endTime":325.662,"body":"is the right word but you often get"},{"startTime":320.572,"endTime":325.662,"body":"a lot of press that makes it seem as"},{"startTime":325.662,"endTime":330.172,"body":"if forest owners and people who are"},{"startTime":325.662,"endTime":330.172,"body":"into environmental protection are"},{"startTime":330.172,"endTime":332.082,"body":"necessarily on the opposing sides."},{"startTime":332.332,"endTime":335.442,"body":"That they have opposing interests"},{"startTime":332.332,"endTime":335.442,"body":"and they, you know, are due to fight."},{"startTime":336.182,"endTime":339.282,"body":"And one of the biggest surprises I had"},{"startTime":336.182,"endTime":339.282,"body":"once we started working with landowners"},{"startTime":339.312,"endTime":342.057,"body":"is they care about nature immensely."},{"startTime":342.077,"endTime":345.767,"body":"They're there day in day out,"},{"startTime":342.077,"endTime":345.767,"body":"you know, planting trees by hand,"},{"startTime":346.047,"endTime":351.147,"body":"measuring trees by hand, assessing the"},{"startTime":346.047,"endTime":351.147,"body":"aftermath of wildfires or pest attacks."},{"startTime":351.357,"endTime":355.377,"body":"They truly care about nature and they kind"},{"startTime":351.357,"endTime":355.377,"body":"of get a bad rep of like, you know, these"},{"startTime":355.377,"endTime":358.267,"body":"are the people with the, with the source"},{"startTime":355.377,"endTime":358.267,"body":"that just want to cut everything down."},{"startTime":358.477,"endTime":361.187,"body":"So that was the biggest surprise"},{"startTime":358.477,"endTime":361.187,"body":"is actually, I think landowners and"},{"startTime":361.187,"endTime":365.697,"body":"forest owners can be big allies in the"},{"startTime":361.187,"endTime":365.697,"body":"climate fight rather than someone we"},{"startTime":365.697,"endTime":367.377,"body":"need to set ourselves in opposition to."},{"startTime":368.567,"endTime":368.967,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":369.267,"endTime":372.537,"body":"And you said half of Estonia is forested."},{"startTime":372.537,"endTime":377.992,"body":"So, Is there room for"},{"startTime":372.537,"endTime":377.992,"body":"more forestry in Estonia?"},{"startTime":378.022,"endTime":380.432,"body":"Are you going beyond"},{"startTime":378.022,"endTime":380.432,"body":"the borders of Estonia?"},{"startTime":380.442,"endTime":383.802,"body":"You know, talk to me a little bit"},{"startTime":380.442,"endTime":383.802,"body":"about what your ultimate aims are and"},{"startTime":384.722,"endTime":386.732,"body":"why, if it's already half forested?"},{"startTime":387.612,"endTime":388.042,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":388.312,"endTime":393.179,"body":"So more broadly for Arbonics, our entire"},{"startTime":388.312,"endTime":393.179,"body":"target ultimate target is all of Europe."},{"startTime":393.489,"endTime":397.279,"body":"And we think actually across Europe,"},{"startTime":393.489,"endTime":397.279,"body":"there's about 14 million hectares of"},{"startTime":397.279,"endTime":399.699,"body":"land that's currently underutilised."},{"startTime":399.719,"endTime":402.899,"body":"So maybe low quality or abandoned"},{"startTime":399.719,"endTime":402.899,"body":"farmland or pasture land."},{"startTime":403.449,"endTime":406.359,"body":"And the reason why is historically,"},{"startTime":403.449,"endTime":406.359,"body":"if you think, you know, Europe went"},{"startTime":406.359,"endTime":410.669,"body":"through a massive population growth in"},{"startTime":406.359,"endTime":410.669,"body":"the sort of 17th, 18th centuries, and a"},{"startTime":410.669,"endTime":414.679,"body":"lot of land was deforested and converted"},{"startTime":410.669,"endTime":414.679,"body":"into farmland to feed the population."},{"startTime":415.209,"endTime":419.659,"body":"Since then, we've learned a lot about"},{"startTime":415.209,"endTime":419.659,"body":"how to make farming a lot more efficient."},{"startTime":420.004,"endTime":423.674,"body":"So per hectare yields are"},{"startTime":420.004,"endTime":423.674,"body":"significantly up and a lot of the"},{"startTime":423.674,"endTime":426.624,"body":"marginal land just doesn't make"},{"startTime":423.674,"endTime":426.624,"body":"sense to farm anymore and actually"},{"startTime":426.624,"endTime":429.014,"body":"would be serving better as forest."},{"startTime":429.544,"endTime":433.864,"body":"And the same story, but on a smaller"},{"startTime":429.544,"endTime":433.864,"body":"scale is very much true in Estonia, not to"},{"startTime":434.334,"endTime":437.954,"body":"mention that Estonia and some of the other"},{"startTime":434.334,"endTime":437.954,"body":"countries in our initial target, which is"},{"startTime":438.014,"endTime":442.367,"body":"all of the Baltics and Scandinavia have"},{"startTime":438.014,"endTime":442.367,"body":"some of the lowest population densities."},{"startTime":442.377,"endTime":446.037,"body":"So we have, here in Estonia,"},{"startTime":442.377,"endTime":446.037,"body":"we have about the same amount"},{"startTime":446.037,"endTime":451.237,"body":"of land as the Netherlands, but"},{"startTime":446.037,"endTime":451.237,"body":"less than 10 times fewer people."},{"startTime":451.797,"endTime":455.447,"body":"So we have a ton of empty land"},{"startTime":451.797,"endTime":455.447,"body":"per person, and some of that could"},{"startTime":455.447,"endTime":456.727,"body":"really be turned into forests."},{"startTime":457.712,"endTime":463.675,"body":"And you're working with landowners"},{"startTime":457.712,"endTime":463.675,"body":"who already have forests or"},{"startTime":463.675,"endTime":468.285,"body":"who have land, which could be"},{"startTime":463.675,"endTime":468.285,"body":"turned into forestry or both?"},{"startTime":469.551,"endTime":470.051,"body":"Both."},{"startTime":470.231,"endTime":474.821,"body":"So we started out with empty land"},{"startTime":470.231,"endTime":474.821,"body":"and converting that into new forests,"},{"startTime":474.821,"endTime":476.151,"body":"which is called afforestation."},{"startTime":476.671,"endTime":479.631,"body":"And I specifically say converting"},{"startTime":476.671,"endTime":479.631,"body":"into new forest, planting forest"},{"startTime":479.631,"endTime":481.121,"body":"rather than just planting trees."},{"startTime":481.221,"endTime":482.171,"body":"I think there's a difference."},{"startTime":482.181,"endTime":484.901,"body":"The forest is a full ecosystem,"},{"startTime":482.181,"endTime":484.901,"body":"and it's more than just sticking"},{"startTime":484.901,"endTime":486.121,"body":"a bunch of saplings in the ground."},{"startTime":486.491,"endTime":487.701,"body":"That was our first solution."},{"startTime":488.081,"endTime":490.964,"body":"And then, we have now existed"},{"startTime":488.081,"endTime":490.964,"body":"as a company for three years."},{"startTime":491.844,"endTime":494.864,"body":"And as we spoke to more and more"},{"startTime":491.844,"endTime":494.864,"body":"landowners, we were realising there is"},{"startTime":494.874,"endTime":497.754,"body":"also a need for existing forest land."},{"startTime":497.754,"endTime":502.584,"body":"So often the main solution there"},{"startTime":497.754,"endTime":502.584,"body":"is complete clear cut when trees"},{"startTime":502.584,"endTime":504.404,"body":"reach harvestable maturity."},{"startTime":505.204,"endTime":508.814,"body":"But actually there are forest"},{"startTime":505.204,"endTime":508.814,"body":"management styles such as continuous"},{"startTime":508.834,"endTime":511.884,"body":"cover forestry, which basically just"},{"startTime":508.834,"endTime":511.884,"body":"means you, you cut some of the trees"},{"startTime":511.884,"endTime":515.304,"body":"and leave the others going, which"},{"startTime":511.884,"endTime":515.304,"body":"will then naturally regenerate."},{"startTime":515.897,"endTime":518.637,"body":"And those have a lot of benefits"},{"startTime":515.897,"endTime":518.637,"body":"in terms of carbon storage and"},{"startTime":518.637,"endTime":522.157,"body":"protecting biodiversity and still"},{"startTime":518.637,"endTime":522.157,"body":"enable you to bring out timber."},{"startTime":522.347,"endTime":526.377,"body":"And so now we have a second"},{"startTime":522.347,"endTime":526.377,"body":"solution aimed at existing forests"},{"startTime":526.882,"endTime":528.412,"body":"which we call impact forestry."},{"startTime":528.652,"endTime":533.212,"body":"And impact forestry is all about where"},{"startTime":528.652,"endTime":533.212,"body":"suitable, moving forest away from clear"},{"startTime":533.212,"endTime":538.412,"body":"cutting towards the selective harvesting"},{"startTime":533.212,"endTime":538.412,"body":"with a goal of increasing carbon storage"},{"startTime":538.612,"endTime":541.072,"body":"while still maintaining some timber."},{"startTime":541.362,"endTime":544.382,"body":"Because obviously you could also go the"},{"startTime":541.362,"endTime":544.382,"body":"path of just say we never cut anything"},{"startTime":544.382,"endTime":546.612,"body":"again, just conserve everything."},{"startTime":547.292,"endTime":551.412,"body":"And we don't think that's necessarily"},{"startTime":547.292,"endTime":551.412,"body":"good path either because timber is"},{"startTime":551.412,"endTime":555.252,"body":"actually a very, you know, carbon positive"},{"startTime":551.412,"endTime":555.252,"body":"material continues to store carbon."},{"startTime":555.872,"endTime":560.122,"body":"So you want to have timber because"},{"startTime":555.872,"endTime":560.122,"body":"if you don't you're replacing it"},{"startTime":560.152,"endTime":564.079,"body":"with materials with a much bigger"},{"startTime":560.152,"endTime":564.079,"body":"footprint like steel, concrete."},{"startTime":564.689,"endTime":567.049,"body":"So we do want to maintain"},{"startTime":564.689,"endTime":567.049,"body":"timber production."},{"startTime":567.049,"endTime":572.969,"body":"We just want to do it in a sort of way"},{"startTime":567.049,"endTime":572.969,"body":"that continues carbon storage and protects"},{"startTime":573.459,"endTime":577.109,"body":"biodiversity if possible to do at the"},{"startTime":573.459,"endTime":577.109,"body":"same time and impact forestry is about"},{"startTime":577.109,"endTime":578.519,"body":"doing those two things at the same time."},{"startTime":579.439,"endTime":579.779,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":579.859,"endTime":585.969,"body":"And for the land owners,"},{"startTime":579.859,"endTime":585.969,"body":"how do they get paid?"},{"startTime":586.089,"endTime":588.229,"body":"If you want to, to put it crudely."},{"startTime":589.819,"endTime":591.139,"body":"I think that's a very good question."},{"startTime":591.149,"endTime":593.569,"body":"That's the sort of starting point"},{"startTime":591.149,"endTime":593.569,"body":"that I was describing, right?"},{"startTime":593.569,"endTime":594.379,"body":"That they had a problem."},{"startTime":594.429,"endTime":596.499,"body":"Their only way of getting"},{"startTime":594.429,"endTime":596.499,"body":"paid was harvesting."},{"startTime":597.019,"endTime":601.169,"body":"So we use carbon credits in the"},{"startTime":597.019,"endTime":601.169,"body":"voluntary carbon markets which"},{"startTime":601.499,"endTime":603.329,"body":"kind of help the landowners out."},{"startTime":603.329,"endTime":606.539,"body":"So if you're traditional kind of"},{"startTime":603.329,"endTime":606.539,"body":"cashflow, if you think as a forest"},{"startTime":606.539,"endTime":609.759,"body":"owner for a, if you plant a new"},{"startTime":606.539,"endTime":609.759,"body":"forest, your cashflow looks like this."},{"startTime":609.999,"endTime":613.659,"body":"You're one and two and three, you"},{"startTime":609.999,"endTime":613.659,"body":"have an initial negative cashflow"},{"startTime":613.849,"endTime":617.279,"body":"planting, maintenance, making"},{"startTime":613.849,"endTime":617.279,"body":"sure that young forest survives."},{"startTime":617.659,"endTime":621.019,"body":"Then you have decades where nothing,"},{"startTime":617.659,"endTime":621.019,"body":"maybe you have an occasional"},{"startTime":621.049,"endTime":622.629,"body":"thinning, but not really any income."},{"startTime":622.689,"endTime":624.579,"body":"And then at the end, you"},{"startTime":622.689,"endTime":624.579,"body":"have a massive payday."},{"startTime":625.129,"endTime":628.389,"body":"But with carbon credits, you can"},{"startTime":625.129,"endTime":628.389,"body":"bring some of the income earlier."},{"startTime":628.409,"endTime":630.669,"body":"It's much smaller"},{"startTime":628.409,"endTime":630.669,"body":"amounts, but it's annual."},{"startTime":631.169,"endTime":634.269,"body":"And then therefore makes that"},{"startTime":631.169,"endTime":634.269,"body":"final payday much less relevant."},{"startTime":634.519,"endTime":637.189,"body":"And the same for this impact"},{"startTime":634.519,"endTime":637.189,"body":"forestry, where you used to"},{"startTime":637.199,"endTime":638.919,"body":"have just one giant harvest."},{"startTime":639.689,"endTime":641.629,"body":"And then you'd have the replanting costs."},{"startTime":641.639,"endTime":645.539,"body":"Now you have a bunch of small harvests"},{"startTime":641.639,"endTime":645.539,"body":"supplemented by carbon credits for"},{"startTime":645.539,"endTime":646.989,"body":"that extra storage you're doing."},{"startTime":647.279,"endTime":651.609,"body":"So that's how our landowners earn money is"},{"startTime":647.279,"endTime":651.609,"body":"they, we generate carbon credits for them."},{"startTime":651.619,"endTime":653.459,"body":"The majority of which"},{"startTime":651.619,"endTime":653.459,"body":"goes to the landowners."},{"startTime":654.419,"endTime":654.819,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":655.209,"endTime":657.469,"body":"You also mentioned biodiversity."},{"startTime":657.479,"endTime":663.539,"body":"So are farmers able to be paid"},{"startTime":657.479,"endTime":663.539,"body":"for increasing biodiversity?"},{"startTime":663.589,"endTime":666.079,"body":"And if so, how?"},{"startTime":666.129,"endTime":668.069,"body":"How is that measured and"},{"startTime":666.129,"endTime":668.069,"body":"how are they paid for it?"},{"startTime":669.119,"endTime":669.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":669.919,"endTime":674.229,"body":"So this is the big challenge in the"},{"startTime":669.919,"endTime":674.229,"body":"market is that there are a variety of"},{"startTime":674.229,"endTime":677.949,"body":"frameworks out there, but there isn't"},{"startTime":674.229,"endTime":677.949,"body":"really agreement on precisely how"},{"startTime":677.989,"endTime":681.959,"body":"should we be measuring biodiversity"},{"startTime":677.989,"endTime":681.959,"body":"and how do you value, you know, one"},{"startTime":681.959,"endTime":687.849,"body":"species here in, boreal Finland versus"},{"startTime":681.959,"endTime":687.849,"body":"another species in temperate Germany."},{"startTime":687.879,"endTime":688.769,"body":"Are they equally valued?"},{"startTime":688.789,"endTime":689.449,"body":"Are they different?"},{"startTime":689.739,"endTime":691.349,"body":"So there isn't really"},{"startTime":689.739,"endTime":691.349,"body":"a good answer for that."},{"startTime":691.784,"endTime":695.334,"body":"Today, our focus is on making"},{"startTime":691.784,"endTime":695.334,"body":"sure that everything we do is"},{"startTime":695.434,"endTime":697.734,"body":"biodiversity neutral or positive."},{"startTime":697.734,"endTime":699.714,"body":"So we, we know what things are damaging."},{"startTime":700.114,"endTime":704.994,"body":"For example, having really like"},{"startTime":700.114,"endTime":704.994,"body":"single species, large plantations of"},{"startTime":705.294,"endTime":707.054,"body":"single species, that's quite damaging."},{"startTime":707.054,"endTime":708.094,"body":"So you don't want to do that."},{"startTime":708.094,"endTime":713.884,"body":"You want to encourage mixed"},{"startTime":708.094,"endTime":713.884,"body":"species, natural regeneration,"},{"startTime":713.884,"endTime":716.444,"body":"understory plants like bushes"},{"startTime":713.884,"endTime":716.444,"body":"and berries and things coming in."},{"startTime":716.764,"endTime":720.434,"body":"So we do that, but we don't yet"},{"startTime":716.764,"endTime":720.434,"body":"have a good way of quantifying that."},{"startTime":720.759,"endTime":721.739,"body":"We're working on that."},{"startTime":721.739,"endTime":725.039,"body":"We have an internal team working on,"},{"startTime":721.739,"endTime":725.039,"body":"you know, all the available frameworks"},{"startTime":725.039,"endTime":726.509,"body":"and figuring out what makes sense."},{"startTime":726.989,"endTime":728.939,"body":"But I think we're really looking for some."},{"startTime":729.484,"endTime":734.284,"body":"This is maybe where regulation or a kind"},{"startTime":729.484,"endTime":734.284,"body":"of standard, a global standard, would be"},{"startTime":734.294,"endTime":736.424,"body":"really handy so everyone can get behind."},{"startTime":736.464,"endTime":738.204,"body":"Hey, this is the way we all measure it."},{"startTime":738.754,"endTime":740.574,"body":"And then we can start to quantify it."},{"startTime":740.834,"endTime":743.924,"body":"I'm a big believer in, you know,"},{"startTime":740.834,"endTime":743.924,"body":"what gets measured gets done."},{"startTime":744.184,"endTime":747.094,"body":"So if we measure it adequately,"},{"startTime":744.184,"endTime":747.094,"body":"we can make sure that"},{"startTime":747.094,"endTime":748.694,"body":"biodiversity is prioritised."},{"startTime":748.714,"endTime":752.484,"body":"But we're not quite there yet on a"},{"startTime":748.714,"endTime":752.484,"body":"global level of everyone saying, like,"},{"startTime":752.484,"endTime":754.114,"body":"this is the one right way to do it."},{"startTime":755.939,"endTime":760.759,"body":"And carbon credits have a"},{"startTime":755.939,"endTime":760.759,"body":"bit of a reputational issue."},{"startTime":761.299,"endTime":769.475,"body":"So, how do you assure people that"},{"startTime":761.299,"endTime":769.475,"body":"the carbon that your landowners"},{"startTime":769.485,"endTime":774.035,"body":"are sucking out of the air, is"},{"startTime":769.485,"endTime":774.035,"body":"actually being sucked out of the air?"},{"startTime":775.751,"endTime":779.331,"body":"Yeah, I mean, that's another huge"},{"startTime":775.751,"endTime":779.331,"body":"reason for why we wanted to do this,"},{"startTime":807.201,"endTime":810.941,"body":"coming with a tech background and"},{"startTime":807.201,"endTime":810.941,"body":"a sort of data forward view and the"},{"startTime":810.941,"endTime":812.441,"body":"way we wanted to do it in Europe."},{"startTime":812.441,"endTime":813.8040000000001,"body":"So there's two ways that we do it."},{"startTime":813.8240000000001,"endTime":818.9540000000001,"body":"One is we, so historically carbon"},{"startTime":813.8240000000001,"endTime":818.9540000000001,"body":"credits issued have really suffered from"},{"startTime":818.9540000000001,"endTime":822.7040000000001,"body":"problems where the baseline is just sort"},{"startTime":818.9540000000001,"endTime":822.7040000000001,"body":"of calculated in an Excel somewhere."},{"startTime":822.7040000000001,"endTime":826.2040000000001,"body":"And it's based on a lot of assumptions"},{"startTime":822.7040000000001,"endTime":826.2040000000001,"body":"and you can query the assumptions and"},{"startTime":826.2040000000001,"endTime":828.464,"body":"maybe the baselines are too negative."},{"startTime":828.464,"endTime":832.3140000000001,"body":"This is something that the Guardian"},{"startTime":828.464,"endTime":832.3140000000001,"body":"had identified around tropical avoided"},{"startTime":832.3140000000001,"endTime":834.984,"body":"deforestation projects particularly."},{"startTime":835.4110000000001,"endTime":837.851,"body":"But that is in many ways"},{"startTime":835.4110000000001,"endTime":837.851,"body":"a data issue, right?"},{"startTime":837.851,"endTime":841.446,"body":"Because it was all based on"},{"startTime":837.851,"endTime":841.446,"body":"models and assumptions, but now"},{"startTime":841.446,"endTime":844.566,"body":"we actually have the technology"},{"startTime":841.446,"endTime":844.566,"body":"to just do it based on real world."},{"startTime":844.596,"endTime":848.346,"body":"And so in our projects, we're using"},{"startTime":844.596,"endTime":848.346,"body":"the newest standard, which uses"},{"startTime":848.346,"endTime":850.096,"body":"something called the dynamic baseline."},{"startTime":850.4960000000001,"endTime":853.326,"body":"And basically what that means is"},{"startTime":850.4960000000001,"endTime":853.326,"body":"rather than trying to guess what would"},{"startTime":853.326,"endTime":858.666,"body":"have happened in another scenario, we"},{"startTime":853.326,"endTime":858.666,"body":"actually use a control set of land plots."},{"startTime":859.1360000000001,"endTime":861.836,"body":"And we measure the difference"},{"startTime":859.1360000000001,"endTime":861.836,"body":"between them in the real world."},{"startTime":862.1560000000001,"endTime":866.446,"body":"So that's one way, and we use that"},{"startTime":862.1560000000001,"endTime":866.446,"body":"throughout our sort of project generation."},{"startTime":866.466,"endTime":870.216,"body":"So everything from assessing whether"},{"startTime":866.466,"endTime":870.216,"body":"land is eligible, we do it in a very data"},{"startTime":870.216,"endTime":875.2860000000001,"body":"driven way, making sure that we filtering"},{"startTime":870.216,"endTime":875.2860000000001,"body":"out land where it's not suitable to plant,"},{"startTime":875.326,"endTime":879.196,"body":"whether, for example, if it's really high"},{"startTime":875.326,"endTime":879.196,"body":"quality soil, that's better for farming,"},{"startTime":879.316,"endTime":883.826,"body":"not suitable, or if it's anything with"},{"startTime":879.316,"endTime":883.826,"body":"like wetland conditions, you shouldn't"},{"startTime":883.826,"endTime":887.296,"body":"be planting trees, which will dry that up"},{"startTime":883.826,"endTime":887.296,"body":"and actually release carbon from the soil."},{"startTime":887.5260000000001,"endTime":891.826,"body":"So we do a lot of like database land"},{"startTime":887.5260000000001,"endTime":891.826,"body":"analysis, and we've taken what used"},{"startTime":891.8560000000001,"endTime":896.426,"body":"to be, I don't know, weeks of emailing"},{"startTime":891.8560000000001,"endTime":896.426,"body":"Excel back and forth and somebody going"},{"startTime":896.426,"endTime":899.666,"body":"on site and kind of doing a guestimate"},{"startTime":896.426,"endTime":899.666,"body":"by holding their finger to the wind."},{"startTime":900.086,"endTime":903.831,"body":"Now we're just doing this by"},{"startTime":900.086,"endTime":903.831,"body":"aggregate all this data, running it"},{"startTime":903.831,"endTime":907.7810000000001,"body":"through our internal digital twin"},{"startTime":903.831,"endTime":907.7810000000001,"body":"and being able to spit out a report."},{"startTime":908.051,"endTime":910.4910000000001,"body":"So I think that's one way where"},{"startTime":908.051,"endTime":910.4910000000001,"body":"we're getting rid of some of those"},{"startTime":911.1310000000001,"endTime":914.331,"body":"historical issues where you were"},{"startTime":911.1310000000001,"endTime":914.331,"body":"never able to have transparency"},{"startTime":914.331,"endTime":915.591,"body":"into what actually was measured."},{"startTime":916.3610000000001,"endTime":918.331,"body":"And then I mentioned that"},{"startTime":916.3610000000001,"endTime":918.331,"body":"we're in Europe for a reason."},{"startTime":918.331,"endTime":921.061,"body":"So I think the second"},{"startTime":918.331,"endTime":921.061,"body":"challenge is regulatory."},{"startTime":921.4440000000001,"endTime":923.984,"body":"For a lot of voluntary carbon"},{"startTime":921.4440000000001,"endTime":923.984,"body":"market, it's in the name, right?"},{"startTime":923.984,"endTime":924.8040000000001,"body":"It's voluntary."},{"startTime":924.8340000000001,"endTime":929.4490000000001,"body":"And so there wasn't necessarily any"},{"startTime":924.8340000000001,"endTime":929.4490000000001,"body":"enforcement happening but by choosing"},{"startTime":929.4590000000001,"endTime":933.6590000000001,"body":"to do forest projects in Europe, where"},{"startTime":929.4590000000001,"endTime":933.6590000000001,"body":"there's very strong forestry regulation,"},{"startTime":933.7090000000001,"endTime":938.452,"body":"and it's pretty strongly enforced as well,"},{"startTime":933.7090000000001,"endTime":938.452,"body":"we have this extra layer of protection."},{"startTime":939.0120000000001,"endTime":943.1460000000001,"body":"So for example, if you convert land"},{"startTime":939.0120000000001,"endTime":943.1460000000001,"body":"in Brazil into a forest land, the next"},{"startTime":943.1460000000001,"endTime":946.476,"body":"president comes in, you have no guarantee"},{"startTime":943.1460000000001,"endTime":946.476,"body":"that it won't get turned into a giant"},{"startTime":946.476,"endTime":949.306,"body":"parking lot or a palm oil plantation."},{"startTime":949.6360000000001,"endTime":953.956,"body":"In Europe, once you've converted"},{"startTime":949.6360000000001,"endTime":953.956,"body":"land, empty land into forest."},{"startTime":954.0260000000001,"endTime":955.4960000000001,"body":"It's quite hard to deforest it."},{"startTime":955.666,"endTime":957.6360000000001,"body":"And the law is pretty strict on this."},{"startTime":957.7860000000001,"endTime":960.966,"body":"Again, varies country by country,"},{"startTime":957.7860000000001,"endTime":960.966,"body":"but we do like legal analysis"},{"startTime":960.9860000000001,"endTime":962.0360000000001,"body":"on a country based level."},{"startTime":962.446,"endTime":963.226,"body":"So those are the two ways."},{"startTime":963.2460000000001,"endTime":966.1360000000001,"body":"Like we use really data to"},{"startTime":963.2460000000001,"endTime":966.1360000000001,"body":"create more of that transparency,"},{"startTime":966.176,"endTime":967.4860000000001,"body":"which I think will drive trust."},{"startTime":967.7460000000001,"endTime":970.916,"body":"And then we use regulation to"},{"startTime":967.7460000000001,"endTime":970.916,"body":"further support what we're doing."},{"startTime":971.546,"endTime":976.7120000000001,"body":"Which I think both should give the buyer"},{"startTime":971.546,"endTime":976.7120000000001,"body":"more abilities to trust the credits"},{"startTime":976.7120000000001,"endTime":978.072,"body":"because it's not just what we say."},{"startTime":978.072,"endTime":979.672,"body":"It's what's actually out there happening."},{"startTime":980.4720000000001,"endTime":980.922,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":981.6320000000001,"endTime":987.572,"body":"I grew up in Ireland and, I"},{"startTime":981.6320000000001,"endTime":987.572,"body":"distinctly remember the Irish"},{"startTime":987.8420000000001,"endTime":991.402,"body":"forestry, Irish national forestry"},{"startTime":987.8420000000001,"endTime":991.402,"body":"organization called Coillte."},{"startTime":991.8620000000001,"endTime":996.572,"body":"And they were encouraging"},{"startTime":991.8620000000001,"endTime":996.572,"body":"farmers to plant forests."},{"startTime":997.062,"endTime":1002.1320000000001,"body":"But what tended to happen was they"},{"startTime":997.062,"endTime":1002.1320000000001,"body":"were planting things like Sitka spruce,"},{"startTime":1004.152,"endTime":1007.9920000000001,"body":"grows very quickly but is non"},{"startTime":1004.152,"endTime":1007.9920000000001,"body":"native and it's monoculture."},{"startTime":1008.6370000000001,"endTime":1013.827,"body":"You mentioned that you're encouraging"},{"startTime":1008.6370000000001,"endTime":1013.827,"body":"your landowners to plant forests as"},{"startTime":1013.827,"endTime":1017.647,"body":"opposed to trees and you made that"},{"startTime":1013.827,"endTime":1017.647,"body":"distinct, you made that distinction"},{"startTime":1017.7570000000001,"endTime":1019.297,"body":"of between forests and trees."},{"startTime":1019.307,"endTime":1023.647,"body":"So talk to me a little bit"},{"startTime":1019.307,"endTime":1023.647,"body":"more about that, about are they"},{"startTime":1023.677,"endTime":1025.457,"body":"planting a variety of trees?"},{"startTime":1025.827,"endTime":1027.097,"body":"What kind of trees are they?"},{"startTime":1027.097,"endTime":1028.197,"body":"Are they old growth trees?"},{"startTime":1028.227,"endTime":1029.167,"body":"Are they, you know, what are they?"},{"startTime":1029.207,"endTime":1029.517,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1030.427,"endTime":1031.257,"body":"Walk me through that."},{"startTime":1031.902,"endTime":1036.322,"body":"Mm hmm so yeah, it differs based"},{"startTime":1031.902,"endTime":1036.322,"body":"on the afforestation and and impact"},{"startTime":1036.382,"endTime":1039.132,"body":"forestry, right old growth for example,"},{"startTime":1036.382,"endTime":1039.132,"body":"it's on the impact forestry side."},{"startTime":1039.422,"endTime":1042.702,"body":"On the afforestation side it's"},{"startTime":1039.422,"endTime":1042.702,"body":"always only native species."},{"startTime":1042.762,"endTime":1043.702,"body":"No non natives."},{"startTime":1044.139,"endTime":1046.269,"body":"It's strongly encouraging a mix."},{"startTime":1046.409,"endTime":1048.079,"body":"There are multiple ways to achieve a mix."},{"startTime":1048.089,"endTime":1050.099,"body":"It doesn't always mean planting a mixture."},{"startTime":1050.419,"endTime":1056.164,"body":"For example, if you plant spruce under"},{"startTime":1050.419,"endTime":1056.164,"body":"suitable conditions, you will have birch"},{"startTime":1056.174,"endTime":1059.434,"body":"naturally come and regenerate in between"},{"startTime":1056.174,"endTime":1059.434,"body":"because the two of them work really"},{"startTime":1059.434,"endTime":1061.3210000000001,"body":"well in combination with each other."},{"startTime":1061.771,"endTime":1065.711,"body":"One way in which we really drive"},{"startTime":1061.771,"endTime":1065.711,"body":"landowners towards trying to like plant"},{"startTime":1065.711,"endTime":1069.511,"body":"the right thing in the right place, which"},{"startTime":1065.711,"endTime":1069.511,"body":"is the key to having a successful forest,"},{"startTime":1069.851,"endTime":1072.261,"body":"is we use quite detailed soil analysis."},{"startTime":1072.271,"endTime":1076.2910000000002,"body":"So we break the plots when we're doing"},{"startTime":1072.271,"endTime":1076.2910000000002,"body":"this pre planting analysis, we break"},{"startTime":1076.2910000000002,"endTime":1081.741,"body":"the plots down to this little five by"},{"startTime":1076.2910000000002,"endTime":1081.741,"body":"meters hexagons and for each of those"},{"startTime":1081.741,"endTime":1085.0810000000001,"body":"we know what the soil type is and then"},{"startTime":1081.741,"endTime":1085.0810000000001,"body":"we run through different scenarios to"},{"startTime":1085.0810000000001,"endTime":1087.0910000000001,"body":"see what tree would do best on that one."},{"startTime":1087.471,"endTime":1090.851,"body":"And so often we give them a recommendation"},{"startTime":1087.471,"endTime":1090.851,"body":"where on their parcel we'll say"},{"startTime":1091.0610000000001,"endTime":1093.491,"body":"in this corner we recommend pine."},{"startTime":1093.861,"endTime":1096.481,"body":"Here you should do birch,"},{"startTime":1093.861,"endTime":1096.481,"body":"here you should do spruce."},{"startTime":1096.8110000000001,"endTime":1099.111,"body":"And all of those are native species."},{"startTime":1099.531,"endTime":1102.654,"body":"There is a limitation, like we"},{"startTime":1099.531,"endTime":1102.654,"body":"would love to do more species."},{"startTime":1102.7540000000001,"endTime":1106.424,"body":"The bottleneck here is the"},{"startTime":1102.7540000000001,"endTime":1106.424,"body":"availability of saplings for"},{"startTime":1106.424,"endTime":1107.7640000000001,"body":"things that are non commercial."},{"startTime":1107.7640000000001,"endTime":1111.314,"body":"So, you know, we'd love to do more"},{"startTime":1107.7640000000001,"endTime":1111.314,"body":"oak and broadleaf in general, but"},{"startTime":1111.314,"endTime":1113.124,"body":"it's very hard to access saplings."},{"startTime":1113.564,"endTime":1117.824,"body":"And so the best way to go about that,"},{"startTime":1113.564,"endTime":1117.824,"body":"in the absence of sort of that sapling"},{"startTime":1118.419,"endTime":1123.469,"body":"supply chain catching up is to combine"},{"startTime":1118.419,"endTime":1123.469,"body":"planting and natural regeneration."},{"startTime":1123.469,"endTime":1127.839,"body":"And that basically means that you do your"},{"startTime":1123.469,"endTime":1127.839,"body":"planting and then as you maintain it, you"},{"startTime":1127.839,"endTime":1132.3690000000001,"body":"don't go and try and kill the other trees"},{"startTime":1127.839,"endTime":1132.3690000000001,"body":"and cut them down, but you let them come"},{"startTime":1132.3690000000001,"endTime":1136.6290000000001,"body":"even if it's lower quality, like maybe"},{"startTime":1132.3690000000001,"endTime":1136.6290000000001,"body":"alder because it will make the forest"},{"startTime":1136.6390000000001,"endTime":1138.3790000000001,"body":"more diverse and therefore more resilient."},{"startTime":1138.919,"endTime":1142.169,"body":"And then on the impact forestry side, you"},{"startTime":1138.919,"endTime":1142.169,"body":"know, you mentioned old growth forests."},{"startTime":1142.219,"endTime":1146.059,"body":"And that, that is a key thing for us,"},{"startTime":1142.219,"endTime":1146.059,"body":"which is there are old growth forests out"},{"startTime":1146.059,"endTime":1148.569,"body":"there that are in line to be clear cut."},{"startTime":1149.039,"endTime":1150.559,"body":"And we really believe shouldn't be."},{"startTime":1150.939,"endTime":1152.509,"body":"Some of them should just be conserved."},{"startTime":1152.529,"endTime":1154.919,"body":"You know, that's a, that's"},{"startTime":1152.529,"endTime":1154.919,"body":"a whole different storyline."},{"startTime":1155.654,"endTime":1157.704,"body":"Some of that should be done on a"},{"startTime":1155.654,"endTime":1157.704,"body":"governmental level, but there's a"},{"startTime":1157.704,"endTime":1159.844,"body":"bunch that are commercial for us today."},{"startTime":1160.2440000000001,"endTime":1164.2540000000001,"body":"If we can take some of them, the ones"},{"startTime":1160.2440000000001,"endTime":1164.2540000000001,"body":"that are best suited for switching from"},{"startTime":1164.2540000000001,"endTime":1168.304,"body":"clear cutting to selective harvesting,"},{"startTime":1164.2540000000001,"endTime":1168.304,"body":"that is what you're trying to achieve."},{"startTime":1168.304,"endTime":1172.0040000000001,"body":"You're trying to keep some of these"},{"startTime":1168.304,"endTime":1172.0040000000001,"body":"really old trees growing so that"},{"startTime":1172.0040000000001,"endTime":1173.554,"body":"they can naturally regenerate."},{"startTime":1173.564,"endTime":1176.864,"body":"If they've made it to that age,"},{"startTime":1173.564,"endTime":1176.864,"body":"they're probably quite resilient."},{"startTime":1176.884,"endTime":1179.104,"body":"So you want their DNA to spread further."},{"startTime":1179.104,"endTime":1181.4940000000001,"body":"You know, you want lots of little"},{"startTime":1179.104,"endTime":1181.4940000000001,"body":"saplings growing up around them"},{"startTime":1181.4940000000001,"endTime":1182.959,"body":"with the same sort of strength."},{"startTime":1183.6090000000002,"endTime":1185.259,"body":"So, so there are things that you can do."},{"startTime":1185.259,"endTime":1188.289,"body":"But yeah, I'd say, you know, some"},{"startTime":1185.259,"endTime":1188.289,"body":"good things to highlight here is"},{"startTime":1188.289,"endTime":1191.059,"body":"there are challenges around the"},{"startTime":1188.289,"endTime":1191.059,"body":"types of saplings that are available."},{"startTime":1191.089,"endTime":1194.0990000000002,"body":"And I really hope we're going to come"},{"startTime":1191.089,"endTime":1194.0990000000002,"body":"along in the next couple of years."},{"startTime":1194.0990000000002,"endTime":1197.179,"body":"And that will probably one of the"},{"startTime":1194.0990000000002,"endTime":1197.179,"body":"things where, I don't know if it's"},{"startTime":1197.199,"endTime":1201.219,"body":"outside Arbonics or, but more broadly,"},{"startTime":1197.199,"endTime":1201.219,"body":"the industry will start growing"},{"startTime":1201.229,"endTime":1205.249,"body":"more different types of saplings and"},{"startTime":1201.229,"endTime":1205.249,"body":"maybe even we can talk about ones"},{"startTime":1205.249,"endTime":1209.059,"body":"that are more resilient to pests or"},{"startTime":1205.249,"endTime":1209.059,"body":"drought, and challenges like that."},{"startTime":1210.006,"endTime":1215.01,"body":"And, forests have been quietly"},{"startTime":1210.006,"endTime":1215.01,"body":"doing carbon removal for millions"},{"startTime":1215.01,"endTime":1219.15,"body":"of years long before humans"},{"startTime":1215.01,"endTime":1219.15,"body":"figured out how to profit from it."},{"startTime":1220.0900000000001,"endTime":1224.68,"body":"Why are we only now really turning to"},{"startTime":1220.0900000000001,"endTime":1224.68,"body":"them as a kind of a core climate solution?"},{"startTime":1225.6860000000001,"endTime":1226.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1226.506,"endTime":1227.366,"body":"Good question."},{"startTime":1227.646,"endTime":1228.626,"body":"I mean, absolutely true."},{"startTime":1228.626,"endTime":1232.596,"body":"I like to refer to trees as the original"},{"startTime":1228.626,"endTime":1232.596,"body":"direct air capture machine, right."},{"startTime":1232.776,"endTime":1239.376,"body":"Refined through, I think it's about 370"},{"startTime":1232.776,"endTime":1239.376,"body":"million years of natural engineering,"},{"startTime":1239.4360000000001,"endTime":1240.6960000000001,"body":"making them super effective."},{"startTime":1240.6960000000001,"endTime":1243.736,"body":"It's quite hard to replicate this"},{"startTime":1240.6960000000001,"endTime":1243.736,"body":"in a lab, on a short timeline."},{"startTime":1244.199,"endTime":1244.659,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1244.659,"endTime":1248.829,"body":"Nature is a huge part of the"},{"startTime":1244.659,"endTime":1248.829,"body":"carbon cycle more broadly."},{"startTime":1249.1390000000001,"endTime":1251.999,"body":"And I always like to quote these"},{"startTime":1249.1390000000001,"endTime":1251.999,"body":"numbers out of an Oxford study,"},{"startTime":1252.009,"endTime":1256.1290000000001,"body":"which was looking at carbon removal,"},{"startTime":1252.009,"endTime":1256.1290000000001,"body":"which is that currently annually,"},{"startTime":1256.169,"endTime":1259.959,"body":"there's roughly 2 gigatons of carbon"},{"startTime":1256.169,"endTime":1259.959,"body":"removal happening around the planet."},{"startTime":1260.319,"endTime":1261.669,"body":"So that's 2 billion tons."},{"startTime":1262.169,"endTime":1265.759,"body":"Of that 99.98 % is done by nature."},{"startTime":1266.289,"endTime":1271.489,"body":"That's forests, oceans, soils,"},{"startTime":1266.289,"endTime":1271.489,"body":"wetlands, and then the remaining"},{"startTime":1271.489,"endTime":1276.939,"body":"0.02% is other human ways, you know,"},{"startTime":1271.489,"endTime":1276.939,"body":"whether that's direct air capture"},{"startTime":1276.939,"endTime":1279.039,"body":"or biochar or enhanced weathering."},{"startTime":1279.319,"endTime":1280.6490000000001,"body":"So tiny, tiny proportion."},{"startTime":1280.659,"endTime":1282.339,"body":"The majority is still done by nature."},{"startTime":1283.039,"endTime":1285.519,"body":"And I don't know why it's"},{"startTime":1283.039,"endTime":1285.519,"body":"taking them so long to realise."},{"startTime":1285.709,"endTime":1287.549,"body":"I think maybe we've been"},{"startTime":1285.709,"endTime":1287.549,"body":"taking it for granted."},{"startTime":1287.549,"endTime":1289.1190000000001,"body":"We just assumed it would always be there."},{"startTime":1289.579,"endTime":1294.549,"body":"But, obviously humans have this"},{"startTime":1289.579,"endTime":1294.549,"body":"tendency of, we need more stuff."},{"startTime":1294.549,"endTime":1295.739,"body":"We need more space."},{"startTime":1295.739,"endTime":1296.549,"body":"We need more food."},{"startTime":1296.549,"endTime":1301.219,"body":"We need more material which we often then"},{"startTime":1296.549,"endTime":1301.219,"body":"turn to nature to take it from there."},{"startTime":1301.569,"endTime":1304.799,"body":"And we kind of forget that it was"},{"startTime":1301.569,"endTime":1304.799,"body":"maybe already serving a purpose."},{"startTime":1305.809,"endTime":1308.989,"body":"And in a way, I think that's quite"},{"startTime":1305.809,"endTime":1308.989,"body":"natural and it's very hard to stop."},{"startTime":1308.989,"endTime":1310.779,"body":"And it's very hard to argue"},{"startTime":1308.989,"endTime":1310.779,"body":"with someone who says, you"},{"startTime":1310.779,"endTime":1311.959,"body":"know, I have to feed my kids."},{"startTime":1311.969,"endTime":1312.489,"body":"Like, what do you mean?"},{"startTime":1312.489,"endTime":1314.909,"body":"I can't cut down this"},{"startTime":1312.489,"endTime":1314.909,"body":"forest to make farmland."},{"startTime":1315.419,"endTime":1317.259,"body":"But if you give them the right incentives."},{"startTime":1317.919,"endTime":1322.171,"body":"When that is not the only choice"},{"startTime":1317.919,"endTime":1322.171,"body":"they face, then I think we can ensure"},{"startTime":1322.171,"endTime":1325.481,"body":"that every plot of land is being"},{"startTime":1322.171,"endTime":1325.481,"body":"used in the most efficient way."},{"startTime":1325.481,"endTime":1328.5610000000001,"body":"And some land should be forest land,"},{"startTime":1325.481,"endTime":1328.5610000000001,"body":"some land should be farm land, some"},{"startTime":1328.5610000000001,"endTime":1331.671,"body":"land should be empty so that we can"},{"startTime":1328.5610000000001,"endTime":1331.671,"body":"build housing for humans, right?"},{"startTime":1331.671,"endTime":1332.521,"body":"We need to live somewhere."},{"startTime":1332.931,"endTime":1334.151,"body":"There is no one right answer."},{"startTime":1334.151,"endTime":1338.681,"body":"It's more about how do we get really"},{"startTime":1334.151,"endTime":1338.681,"body":"granular and figure out the right path for"},{"startTime":1338.681,"endTime":1342.671,"body":"each particular plot of land based on what"},{"startTime":1338.681,"endTime":1342.671,"body":"we know about the conditions and the soil"},{"startTime":1342.671,"endTime":1344.5710000000001,"body":"and everything, the location, et cetera."},{"startTime":1345.731,"endTime":1346.131,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1346.671,"endTime":1348.63,"body":"And, I mean, you mentioned incentives."},{"startTime":1348.63,"endTime":1353.75,"body":"Are there financial instruments"},{"startTime":1348.63,"endTime":1353.75,"body":"or incentives for farmers who"},{"startTime":1353.75,"endTime":1360.4950000000001,"body":"are planting forests so that they"},{"startTime":1353.75,"endTime":1360.4950000000001,"body":"don't have to wait until year 20"},{"startTime":1360.4950000000001,"endTime":1362.605,"body":"or year 30 to get that big payday?"},{"startTime":1362.935,"endTime":1366.875,"body":"I know in some places you can"},{"startTime":1362.935,"endTime":1366.875,"body":"borrow against future earnings."},{"startTime":1366.875,"endTime":1367.7450000000001,"body":"That kind of thing."},{"startTime":1367.785,"endTime":1370.345,"body":"Is there anything like"},{"startTime":1367.785,"endTime":1370.345,"body":"that there for landowners?"},{"startTime":1370.912,"endTime":1372.5620000000001,"body":"So this varies hugely by country."},{"startTime":1372.5620000000001,"endTime":1373.582,"body":"You mentioned Ireland."},{"startTime":1373.672,"endTime":1375.682,"body":"Ireland is actually an"},{"startTime":1373.672,"endTime":1375.682,"body":"interesting case study."},{"startTime":1375.682,"endTime":1378.832,"body":"Ireland had one of the, I think it"},{"startTime":1375.682,"endTime":1378.832,"body":"dropped to like one of the lowest"},{"startTime":1378.832,"endTime":1381.3120000000001,"body":"levels of forestation in all of Europe."},{"startTime":1381.3120000000001,"endTime":1383.612,"body":"I think it, at its lowest was it 9%."},{"startTime":1384.212,"endTime":1390.086,"body":"Less, I think but it's a historical thing"},{"startTime":1384.212,"endTime":1390.086,"body":"where the country was pillaged essentially"},{"startTime":1390.086,"endTime":1395.4560000000001,"body":"by the colonisers and the people there had"},{"startTime":1390.086,"endTime":1395.4560000000001,"body":"to cut down any kind of forestry at all"},{"startTime":1395.4660000000001,"endTime":1397.386,"body":"to make any kind of living on the land."},{"startTime":1397.4160000000002,"endTime":1399.246,"body":"But that's, that's a"},{"startTime":1397.4160000000002,"endTime":1399.246,"body":"whole other conversation."},{"startTime":1400.332,"endTime":1400.872,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1400.872,"endTime":1403.692,"body":"But you know, that kind of perfectly"},{"startTime":1400.872,"endTime":1403.692,"body":"illustrates that this isn't a"},{"startTime":1403.692,"endTime":1405.372,"body":"binary black and white story, right?"},{"startTime":1405.372,"endTime":1406.992,"body":"This isn't like forest cutting bad."},{"startTime":1407.462,"endTime":1410.654,"body":"There were very good and very"},{"startTime":1407.462,"endTime":1410.654,"body":"valid reasons why the Irish"},{"startTime":1410.654,"endTime":1414.304,"body":"needed to feed themselves and they"},{"startTime":1410.654,"endTime":1414.304,"body":"needed fields for to grow food."},{"startTime":1414.694,"endTime":1420.284,"body":"But that meant that the Irish government"},{"startTime":1414.694,"endTime":1420.284,"body":"has had a massive push for reforestation."},{"startTime":1420.294,"endTime":1424.704,"body":"So for example, they actually do have"},{"startTime":1420.294,"endTime":1424.704,"body":"subsidies for planting and there is"},{"startTime":1424.704,"endTime":1428.034,"body":"obviously a level at which if you"},{"startTime":1424.704,"endTime":1428.034,"body":"have a subsidy, then the voluntary"},{"startTime":1428.034,"endTime":1431.124,"body":"credits are no longer additional"},{"startTime":1428.034,"endTime":1431.124,"body":"because if the subsidy is high enough,"},{"startTime":1431.144,"endTime":1432.894,"body":"you would just do it for the subsidy."},{"startTime":1433.124,"endTime":1436.2340000000002,"body":"You don't really need the credits on"},{"startTime":1433.124,"endTime":1436.2340000000002,"body":"top of it to make you decide to plant."},{"startTime":1436.634,"endTime":1440.424,"body":"And that is one of the things that goes"},{"startTime":1436.634,"endTime":1440.424,"body":"into the calculations that we do as well."},{"startTime":1440.4740000000002,"endTime":1443.044,"body":"It's called financial additionality,"},{"startTime":1440.4740000000002,"endTime":1443.044,"body":"and it's really taking into"},{"startTime":1443.064,"endTime":1444.284,"body":"account these criteria."},{"startTime":1444.834,"endTime":1448.684,"body":"And it also partially comes"},{"startTime":1444.834,"endTime":1448.684,"body":"out in, I talked earlier about"},{"startTime":1448.804,"endTime":1450.5140000000001,"body":"using a baseline to compare."},{"startTime":1450.564,"endTime":1454.9840000000002,"body":"So we're really seeing our effect by"},{"startTime":1450.564,"endTime":1454.9840000000002,"body":"comparing to other similar plots that"},{"startTime":1454.9840000000002,"endTime":1459.294,"body":"are not in a carbon project and in"},{"startTime":1454.9840000000002,"endTime":1459.294,"body":"places where you have a bunch of other"},{"startTime":1459.304,"endTime":1463.319,"body":"financing methods, whether it's subsidies"},{"startTime":1459.304,"endTime":1463.319,"body":"or something else, the difference"},{"startTime":1463.319,"endTime":1466.269,"body":"between those two would be very low"},{"startTime":1463.319,"endTime":1466.269,"body":"and so no credits would be issued."},{"startTime":1466.419,"endTime":1469.449,"body":"So that's one way in which"},{"startTime":1466.419,"endTime":1469.449,"body":"additionality is enforced in"},{"startTime":1469.459,"endTime":1470.749,"body":"the voluntary carbon markets."},{"startTime":1471.382,"endTime":1473.502,"body":"In terms of other access to funding."},{"startTime":1473.5320000000002,"endTime":1474.362,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1474.362,"endTime":1475.162,"body":"There are loans."},{"startTime":1475.512,"endTime":1480.952,"body":"For example, we even partner here in"},{"startTime":1475.512,"endTime":1480.952,"body":"the Baltics with Swedbank on providing"},{"startTime":1481.082,"endTime":1486.112,"body":"forest landowners with the money to"},{"startTime":1481.082,"endTime":1486.112,"body":"help them pay for that initial planting"},{"startTime":1486.549,"endTime":1489.939,"body":"because sometimes that's a barrier that"},{"startTime":1486.549,"endTime":1489.939,"body":"they just don't have even that liquidity"},{"startTime":1489.959,"endTime":1493.329,"body":"for that initial planting, even if they"},{"startTime":1489.959,"endTime":1493.329,"body":"will get carbon credits in a few years."},{"startTime":1493.8990000000001,"endTime":1497.6190000000001,"body":"So definitely important that they have"},{"startTime":1493.8990000000001,"endTime":1497.6190000000001,"body":"those tools available to them as well."},{"startTime":1498.468,"endTime":1503.098,"body":"And things like nature based carbon"},{"startTime":1498.468,"endTime":1503.098,"body":"removal, sometimes seen as a soft"},{"startTime":1503.1180000000002,"endTime":1507.9080000000001,"body":"option compared to big, sexy industrial"},{"startTime":1503.1180000000002,"endTime":1507.9080000000001,"body":"projects like direct air capture."},{"startTime":1508.3780000000002,"endTime":1509.338,"body":"What's the reality?"},{"startTime":1509.338,"endTime":1514.3980000000001,"body":"Where where do nature based removal"},{"startTime":1509.338,"endTime":1514.3980000000001,"body":"projects excel and where do they struggle?"},{"startTime":1515.309,"endTime":1517.229,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a great question."},{"startTime":1517.669,"endTime":1521.679,"body":"I personally, I often see this"},{"startTime":1517.669,"endTime":1521.679,"body":"dichotomy, you know, people putting"},{"startTime":1521.679,"endTime":1523.249,"body":"those two in opposition to one another."},{"startTime":1523.249,"endTime":1524.759,"body":"I don't really get why at all."},{"startTime":1524.759,"endTime":1526.729,"body":"I think they're actually"},{"startTime":1524.759,"endTime":1526.729,"body":"perfectly complimentary."},{"startTime":1527.2440000000001,"endTime":1531.784,"body":"So a lot of technology based carbon"},{"startTime":1527.2440000000001,"endTime":1531.784,"body":"removal is still fairly in the early days"},{"startTime":1531.784,"endTime":1533.624,"body":"in terms of technological advancement."},{"startTime":1533.624,"endTime":1536.424,"body":"The total volumes are"},{"startTime":1533.624,"endTime":1536.424,"body":"still relatively low."},{"startTime":1536.874,"endTime":1539.604,"body":"You know, something like direct air"},{"startTime":1536.874,"endTime":1539.604,"body":"capture, I think we're talking in the"},{"startTime":1539.604,"endTime":1543.634,"body":"tens of thousands of tons being done in"},{"startTime":1539.604,"endTime":1543.634,"body":"a year, versus we need billions of tons."},{"startTime":1544.314,"endTime":1549.733,"body":"And even in the best case scenario, if"},{"startTime":1544.314,"endTime":1549.733,"body":"we can scale that sector to one gigaton,"},{"startTime":1550.034,"endTime":1553.454,"body":"Which would be about an 86,000 x growth."},{"startTime":1553.454,"endTime":1555.584,"body":"I think from 2023 numbers."},{"startTime":1555.674,"endTime":1557.0240000000001,"body":"I haven't compared to 2024."},{"startTime":1557.0240000000001,"endTime":1559.184,"body":"So maybe it's a slightly,"},{"startTime":1557.0240000000001,"endTime":1559.184,"body":"but it's still a huge lift."},{"startTime":1559.7340000000002,"endTime":1563.73,"body":"That's still, that's one gigaton and"},{"startTime":1559.7340000000002,"endTime":1563.73,"body":"we need our total carbon removals to go"},{"startTime":1563.73,"endTime":1569.23,"body":"from this two gigatons to like 10 plus"},{"startTime":1563.73,"endTime":1569.23,"body":"to get to net zero on a planetary level."},{"startTime":1569.7,"endTime":1573.03,"body":"And I just don't see where the rest of"},{"startTime":1569.7,"endTime":1573.03,"body":"that will come if it's, if it doesn't"},{"startTime":1573.03,"endTime":1578.3400000000001,"body":"come from nature, because, yeah,"},{"startTime":1573.03,"endTime":1578.3400000000001,"body":"there are limits to scaling up DAC."},{"startTime":1578.46,"endTime":1582.52,"body":"The limits are the availability of"},{"startTime":1578.46,"endTime":1582.52,"body":"suitable green energy in a way that"},{"startTime":1582.52,"endTime":1586.68,"body":"you're not taking energy away from other"},{"startTime":1582.52,"endTime":1586.68,"body":"uses that are decarbonising the economy."},{"startTime":1587.03,"endTime":1589.98,"body":"The space to build plants, like"},{"startTime":1587.03,"endTime":1589.98,"body":"a lot of this is quite capital"},{"startTime":1589.98,"endTime":1591.63,"body":"intensive, the money needed for that."},{"startTime":1591.95,"endTime":1596.48,"body":"So it's just really hard to see how we"},{"startTime":1591.95,"endTime":1596.48,"body":"can scale that even faster and even more."},{"startTime":1596.54,"endTime":1600.19,"body":"Already this one gigaton by"},{"startTime":1596.54,"endTime":1600.19,"body":"2050 feels like a strong goal."},{"startTime":1601.3500000000001,"endTime":1602.8500000000001,"body":"And the rest has to come from somewhere."},{"startTime":1602.8600000000001,"endTime":1605.24,"body":"And I think that's where"},{"startTime":1602.8600000000001,"endTime":1605.24,"body":"nature based steps in."},{"startTime":1605.31,"endTime":1607.93,"body":"And one argument that's often used"},{"startTime":1605.31,"endTime":1607.93,"body":"against nature based is, look,"},{"startTime":1607.93,"endTime":1609.28,"body":"it doesn't last as long, right?"},{"startTime":1609.91,"endTime":1611.41,"body":"How long is your average tree growing?"},{"startTime":1611.44,"endTime":1611.93,"body":"50 years?"},{"startTime":1611.99,"endTime":1614.21,"body":"100 years, if we're lucky,"},{"startTime":1611.99,"endTime":1614.21,"body":"if there's no fires."},{"startTime":1615.05,"endTime":1617.6100000000001,"body":"And to me, the point is"},{"startTime":1615.05,"endTime":1617.6100000000001,"body":"like, yeah, absolutely true."},{"startTime":1617.89,"endTime":1621.67,"body":"In an ideal world, we would do all"},{"startTime":1617.89,"endTime":1621.67,"body":"of this thousand year carbon removal."},{"startTime":1622.5,"endTime":1623.95,"body":"But we're not in an ideal world."},{"startTime":1624.0800000000002,"endTime":1626.3,"body":"We know we can't do all of"},{"startTime":1624.0800000000002,"endTime":1626.3,"body":"it with a thousand years."},{"startTime":1626.5700000000002,"endTime":1631.69,"body":"And our most immediate pressing problems"},{"startTime":1626.5700000000002,"endTime":1631.69,"body":"are in the next 50 to 100 years, right?"},{"startTime":1631.98,"endTime":1636.64,"body":"So in a way, if we can kick the can"},{"startTime":1631.98,"endTime":1636.64,"body":"down the road a little bit more, buy"},{"startTime":1636.64,"endTime":1640.8600000000001,"body":"ourselves a couple more decades, to"},{"startTime":1636.64,"endTime":1640.8600000000001,"body":"come up with new technologies that"},{"startTime":1640.8600000000001,"endTime":1645.924,"body":"either remove existing carbon out"},{"startTime":1640.8600000000001,"endTime":1645.924,"body":"of the air, or remove new emissions"},{"startTime":1646.0,"endTime":1647.69,"body":"much faster than currently projected."},{"startTime":1648.1100000000001,"endTime":1651.3200000000002,"body":"If we can buy ourselves that"},{"startTime":1648.1100000000001,"endTime":1651.3200000000002,"body":"time, that is already a great win."},{"startTime":1651.45,"endTime":1653.14,"body":"And nature is good for that."},{"startTime":1653.39,"endTime":1657.77,"body":"Not to mention provides a bunch of other"},{"startTime":1653.39,"endTime":1657.77,"body":"co benefits, you know, whether it's water"},{"startTime":1657.77,"endTime":1664.14,"body":"purification that forests can serve, air"},{"startTime":1657.77,"endTime":1664.14,"body":"purification, even local climatic impacts."},{"startTime":1664.3200000000002,"endTime":1665.79,"body":"You can see this in cities, right?"},{"startTime":1665.8,"endTime":1669.3300000000002,"body":"Areas with trees are much cooler than"},{"startTime":1665.8,"endTime":1669.3300000000002,"body":"areas without trees because trees"},{"startTime":1669.3300000000002,"endTime":1671.22,"body":"basically operate as a little AC unit."},{"startTime":1671.9,"endTime":1674.8700000000001,"body":"And on a larger scale, the"},{"startTime":1671.9,"endTime":1674.8700000000001,"body":"exact same effect happens."},{"startTime":1674.8700000000001,"endTime":1678.23,"body":"And so it helps reduce droughts"},{"startTime":1674.8700000000001,"endTime":1678.23,"body":"and kind of avoid desertification"},{"startTime":1678.88,"endTime":1679.45,"body":"and things like that."},{"startTime":1679.45,"endTime":1680.99,"body":"So lots and lots of co benefits."},{"startTime":1681.49,"endTime":1685.28,"body":"And the bigger counterargument is the"},{"startTime":1681.49,"endTime":1685.28,"body":"durability, but to me that just says we"},{"startTime":1685.28,"endTime":1687.03,"body":"shouldn't be counting only on nature."},{"startTime":1687.17,"endTime":1691.5800000000002,"body":"We should 100% still be investing on"},{"startTime":1687.17,"endTime":1691.5800000000002,"body":"technology based removal and pushing"},{"startTime":1691.5900000000001,"endTime":1695.77,"body":"the thinking there, pushing the science,"},{"startTime":1691.5900000000001,"endTime":1695.77,"body":"trying to make that cheaper, faster"},{"startTime":1695.77,"endTime":1698.41,"body":"to scale, using less energy, etc."},{"startTime":1698.8300000000002,"endTime":1701.45,"body":"But in the meantime, we have"},{"startTime":1698.8300000000002,"endTime":1701.45,"body":"this amazing tool in nature."},{"startTime":1701.815,"endTime":1704.7150000000001,"body":"Why not take advantage of it"},{"startTime":1701.815,"endTime":1704.7150000000001,"body":"to the maximum that we can?"},{"startTime":1704.825,"endTime":1706.385,"body":"That's, that's how I"},{"startTime":1704.825,"endTime":1706.385,"body":"think about it, at least."},{"startTime":1707.52,"endTime":1708.1000000000001,"body":"No, fair enough."},{"startTime":1708.563,"endTime":1712.5430000000001,"body":"Tech companies obviously like"},{"startTime":1708.563,"endTime":1712.5430000000001,"body":"talking about scaling solutions,"},{"startTime":1713.203,"endTime":1718.183,"body":"however, nature based solutions"},{"startTime":1713.203,"endTime":1718.183,"body":"are limited by land and biology."},{"startTime":1718.7430000000002,"endTime":1723.0430000000001,"body":"What does scale actually look"},{"startTime":1718.7430000000002,"endTime":1723.0430000000001,"body":"like for afforestation and"},{"startTime":1723.073,"endTime":1724.483,"body":"improved forestry management?"},{"startTime":1725.1580000000001,"endTime":1725.558,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1725.6680000000001,"endTime":1729.308,"body":"So absolutely you cannot make"},{"startTime":1725.6680000000001,"endTime":1729.308,"body":"trees grow faster by throwing"},{"startTime":1729.318,"endTime":1730.528,"body":"more servers behind them."},{"startTime":1730.6180000000002,"endTime":1733.728,"body":"Like you can, purely software"},{"startTime":1730.6180000000002,"endTime":1733.728,"body":"based solutions, right?"},{"startTime":1734.1480000000001,"endTime":1739.252,"body":"So I think what scale looks like is"},{"startTime":1734.1480000000001,"endTime":1739.252,"body":"just really catalyzing action faster."},{"startTime":1739.662,"endTime":1742.882,"body":"So for us, it means I mentioned"},{"startTime":1739.662,"endTime":1742.882,"body":"earlier, we think there's 14"},{"startTime":1742.892,"endTime":1744.362,"body":"million hectares across Europe."},{"startTime":1744.372,"endTime":1749.325,"body":"That's quite significant if we can get"},{"startTime":1744.372,"endTime":1749.325,"body":"those covered in the next couple of"},{"startTime":1749.325,"endTime":1753.795,"body":"years, next five years, 10 years, even"},{"startTime":1749.325,"endTime":1753.795,"body":"versus whatever the rate of natural"},{"startTime":1753.805,"endTime":1756.905,"body":"regeneration or natural afforestation"},{"startTime":1753.805,"endTime":1756.905,"body":"would be, which is much slower."},{"startTime":1757.1950000000002,"endTime":1758.7350000000001,"body":"That is already a big jump."},{"startTime":1758.852,"endTime":1764.637,"body":"And the way to do that is to try and"},{"startTime":1758.852,"endTime":1764.637,"body":"use technology to speed up all the parts"},{"startTime":1764.6670000000001,"endTime":1766.607,"body":"that are not the literal tree growing."},{"startTime":1766.607,"endTime":1768.6770000000001,"body":"So it's assessing the"},{"startTime":1766.607,"endTime":1768.6770000000001,"body":"land for eligibility."},{"startTime":1769.227,"endTime":1772.1970000000001,"body":"Once it's planted, doing all"},{"startTime":1769.227,"endTime":1772.1970000000001,"body":"the measurement and monitoring,"},{"startTime":1772.207,"endTime":1775.6570000000002,"body":"which, you know, we use satellite"},{"startTime":1772.207,"endTime":1775.6570000000002,"body":"imagery, LIDAR, et cetera."},{"startTime":1776.457,"endTime":1779.047,"body":"So that's the part where"},{"startTime":1776.457,"endTime":1779.047,"body":"you can apply scale."},{"startTime":1779.117,"endTime":1782.78,"body":"But yeah, the literal saplings themselves,"},{"startTime":1779.117,"endTime":1782.78,"body":"they will, grow at their own speed."},{"startTime":1783.0800000000002,"endTime":1785.3600000000001,"body":"Although I would say there's"},{"startTime":1783.0800000000002,"endTime":1785.3600000000001,"body":"some cool stuff out there."},{"startTime":1785.3700000000001,"endTime":1786.99,"body":"I don't know if you've ever"},{"startTime":1785.3700000000001,"endTime":1786.99,"body":"heard of Living Carbon."},{"startTime":1786.99,"endTime":1790.47,"body":"It's a US company that's"},{"startTime":1786.99,"endTime":1790.47,"body":"genetically modifying trees to"},{"startTime":1790.56,"endTime":1792.1200000000001,"body":"store more carbon and grow faster."},{"startTime":1792.6950000000002,"endTime":1795.6950000000002,"body":"I think a lot of people might get"},{"startTime":1792.6950000000002,"endTime":1795.6950000000002,"body":"scared and kind of imagine Day Of"},{"startTime":1795.6950000000002,"endTime":1799.175,"body":"The Triffids, but they're doing"},{"startTime":1795.6950000000002,"endTime":1799.175,"body":"this in a quite safeguarded way."},{"startTime":1799.185,"endTime":1803.192,"body":"And I know they're planting their trees"},{"startTime":1799.185,"endTime":1803.192,"body":"in, in Georgia and Alabama, I believe."},{"startTime":1803.192,"endTime":1805.142,"body":"So there are people also working on that."},{"startTime":1805.602,"endTime":1806.682,"body":"At Arbonics, we are not."},{"startTime":1806.712,"endTime":1811.738,"body":"We're still going with the plain old"},{"startTime":1806.712,"endTime":1811.738,"body":"school, regular trees, but I do think"},{"startTime":1811.738,"endTime":1815.6580000000001,"body":"scaling means taking away all the other"},{"startTime":1811.738,"endTime":1815.6580000000001,"body":"barriers around it so that those trees"},{"startTime":1815.678,"endTime":1819.748,"body":"get in the ground as early as possible and"},{"startTime":1815.678,"endTime":1819.748,"body":"have the longest possible time to grow."},{"startTime":1820.1180000000002,"endTime":1824.2930000000001,"body":"And it also means trying to do"},{"startTime":1820.1180000000002,"endTime":1824.2930000000001,"body":"things like model and predict what"},{"startTime":1824.303,"endTime":1828.333,"body":"the growing conditions might be"},{"startTime":1824.303,"endTime":1828.333,"body":"in 50 years so that we can plant"},{"startTime":1828.333,"endTime":1829.853,"body":"already thinking of the tomorrow."},{"startTime":1829.873,"endTime":1834.313,"body":"The trees that do well today may not"},{"startTime":1829.873,"endTime":1834.313,"body":"thrive in 50 years in a drier, hotter"},{"startTime":1834.313,"endTime":1839.223,"body":"environment or whatever the local changes,"},{"startTime":1834.313,"endTime":1839.223,"body":"but we can use data and technology to"},{"startTime":1839.223,"endTime":1843.843,"body":"predict that on a more granular level"},{"startTime":1839.223,"endTime":1843.843,"body":"and therefore hopefully avoid losing"},{"startTime":1843.843,"endTime":1847.653,"body":"some of them through you know, if we were"},{"startTime":1843.843,"endTime":1847.653,"body":"to do it in a non forward thinking way."},{"startTime":1848.603,"endTime":1855.593,"body":"And what does Europe look like when"},{"startTime":1848.603,"endTime":1855.593,"body":"that 14 million hectares are afforested?"},{"startTime":1857.528,"endTime":1858.6680000000001,"body":"Greener, hopefully."},{"startTime":1860.1860000000001,"endTime":1862.486,"body":"I guess you're asking what's"},{"startTime":1860.1860000000001,"endTime":1862.486,"body":"the next step after that?"},{"startTime":1863.14,"endTime":1863.64,"body":"Mm hmm."},{"startTime":1864.361,"endTime":1867.711,"body":"I mean, the next step and something"},{"startTime":1864.361,"endTime":1867.711,"body":"we do have to work on in parallel"},{"startTime":1867.711,"endTime":1871.281,"body":"is protecting the existing old"},{"startTime":1867.711,"endTime":1871.281,"body":"growth forests we have, right?"},{"startTime":1871.8010000000002,"endTime":1874.511,"body":"And that's where impact forestry"},{"startTime":1871.8010000000002,"endTime":1874.511,"body":"comes in, but, but more broadly, even"},{"startTime":1874.511,"endTime":1876.0910000000001,"body":"outside of our specific solution."},{"startTime":1876.241,"endTime":1879.381,"body":"The other thing we need to do is"},{"startTime":1876.241,"endTime":1879.381,"body":"make sure that our existing forests."},{"startTime":1880.221,"endTime":1885.017,"body":"We have this very careful equation to"},{"startTime":1880.221,"endTime":1885.017,"body":"balance, which is our need for timber"},{"startTime":1885.987,"endTime":1887.837,"body":"and our need to keep the forests growing."},{"startTime":1889.067,"endTime":1892.9070000000002,"body":"And this is an equation we will keep"},{"startTime":1889.067,"endTime":1892.9070000000002,"body":"balancing over the coming decades, because"},{"startTime":1892.9170000000001,"endTime":1896.317,"body":"again, I don't think there's a scenario"},{"startTime":1892.9170000000001,"endTime":1896.317,"body":"in which we just stop using timber."},{"startTime":1896.4370000000001,"endTime":1898.977,"body":"I mean, we could, but we would"},{"startTime":1896.4370000000001,"endTime":1898.977,"body":"end up with increasing our"},{"startTime":1898.977,"endTime":1900.137,"body":"emissions, not reducing them."},{"startTime":1900.517,"endTime":1901.637,"body":"So that is a challenge."},{"startTime":1902.134,"endTime":1904.964,"body":"And again, we can use data and"},{"startTime":1902.134,"endTime":1904.964,"body":"technology to figure out what"},{"startTime":1904.9740000000002,"endTime":1907.5140000000001,"body":"forests we really need to protect."},{"startTime":1907.7740000000001,"endTime":1910.644,"body":"Maybe there are some places where,"},{"startTime":1907.7740000000001,"endTime":1910.644,"body":"where we essentially say, look,"},{"startTime":1910.694,"endTime":1912.804,"body":"this here is like a tree farm."},{"startTime":1913.164,"endTime":1915.0040000000001,"body":"There's not a particularly"},{"startTime":1913.164,"endTime":1915.0040000000001,"body":"biodiverse area."},{"startTime":1915.214,"endTime":1918.954,"body":"We're just going to focus on getting"},{"startTime":1915.214,"endTime":1918.954,"body":"as much timber cycling through on this"},{"startTime":1918.954,"endTime":1922.7740000000001,"body":"particular plots as we can, because that"},{"startTime":1918.954,"endTime":1922.7740000000001,"body":"timber is going into long term usage."},{"startTime":1923.054,"endTime":1925.7740000000001,"body":"And this land was not a very"},{"startTime":1923.054,"endTime":1925.7740000000001,"body":"valuable forest in the first place."},{"startTime":1926.0140000000001,"endTime":1927.8690000000001,"body":"And we need some timber for the market."},{"startTime":1927.8690000000001,"endTime":1929.929,"body":"Here on this plot we're"},{"startTime":1927.8690000000001,"endTime":1929.929,"body":"going to keep doing that."},{"startTime":1930.229,"endTime":1933.539,"body":"Whereas here where we have an"},{"startTime":1930.229,"endTime":1933.539,"body":"old growth forest with a very"},{"startTime":1933.539,"endTime":1935.502,"body":"biodiverse environment around it."},{"startTime":1935.957,"endTime":1941.517,"body":"This we protect at whatever costs"},{"startTime":1935.957,"endTime":1941.517,"body":"and the cost might be doing some very"},{"startTime":1941.717,"endTime":1944.747,"body":"commercially intensive forestry over here."},{"startTime":1945.127,"endTime":1950.337,"body":"And I think it's, it's the nuance of those"},{"startTime":1945.127,"endTime":1950.337,"body":"different assessments and calculations."},{"startTime":1950.737,"endTime":1953.247,"body":"And that gets hard to boil down,"},{"startTime":1950.737,"endTime":1953.247,"body":"especially to people outside of"},{"startTime":1953.247,"endTime":1956.227,"body":"the forestry sector who like to"},{"startTime":1953.247,"endTime":1956.227,"body":"say, like, how about we just say,"},{"startTime":1956.4370000000001,"endTime":1958.867,"body":"just stop harvesting or, you know."},{"startTime":1959.607,"endTime":1961.597,"body":"But it's not, it's never"},{"startTime":1959.607,"endTime":1961.597,"body":"that simple, right?"},{"startTime":1962.057,"endTime":1964.047,"body":"Unfortunately, that's the thing"},{"startTime":1962.057,"endTime":1964.047,"body":"with everything in climate."},{"startTime":1964.047,"endTime":1968.707,"body":"It's never as simple as the newspaper"},{"startTime":1964.047,"endTime":1968.707,"body":"headline blurb would like to make it seem."},{"startTime":1969.477,"endTime":1969.957,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1970.124,"endTime":1975.614,"body":"And on your company website, you talk"},{"startTime":1970.124,"endTime":1975.614,"body":"about joyfully data backed solutions."},{"startTime":1975.634,"endTime":1979.204,"body":"Can you explain what that means and"},{"startTime":1975.634,"endTime":1979.204,"body":"how technology like digital twins that"},{"startTime":1979.204,"endTime":1983.594,"body":"you mentioned and remote sensing can"},{"startTime":1979.204,"endTime":1983.594,"body":"actually increase trust in carbon removal?"},{"startTime":1984.4940000000001,"endTime":1985.664,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1986.057,"endTime":1990.1670000000001,"body":"So first, the Joyfully Data backed comes"},{"startTime":1986.057,"endTime":1990.1670000000001,"body":"from, I don't know if you are familiar"},{"startTime":1990.1670000000001,"endTime":1992.1470000000002,"body":"with the work of Hans Rosling, the Swedish"},{"startTime":1992.337,"endTime":1993.387,"body":"Yes, yes, yes."},{"startTime":1993.387,"endTime":1994.807,"body":"I met him a couple of times."},{"startTime":1994.817,"endTime":1995.317,"body":"Lovely guy."},{"startTime":1995.817,"endTime":1996.607,"body":"Oh, amazing."},{"startTime":1996.607,"endTime":2000.347,"body":"I never had the honor of meeting him,"},{"startTime":1996.607,"endTime":2000.347,"body":"but I find his work incredibly inspiring."},{"startTime":2000.4070000000002,"endTime":2004.527,"body":"And so he is the, he is the person we have"},{"startTime":2000.4070000000002,"endTime":2004.527,"body":"in mind with that value for, for us as"},{"startTime":2004.527,"endTime":2009.1570000000002,"body":"a team, which is really that we believe"},{"startTime":2004.527,"endTime":2009.1570000000002,"body":"that data can change the world for better."},{"startTime":2009.547,"endTime":2011.217,"body":"And it can be a joy to work with it."},{"startTime":2011.557,"endTime":2013.097,"body":"So that's where it came from."},{"startTime":2013.097,"endTime":2015.587,"body":"But in practice, really,"},{"startTime":2013.097,"endTime":2015.587,"body":"this is the same idea."},{"startTime":2015.727,"endTime":2020.737,"body":"Okay, so historically, forest assessments"},{"startTime":2015.727,"endTime":2020.737,"body":"are done in a very analog way."},{"startTime":2021.097,"endTime":2024.8970000000002,"body":"So if you're trying to measure forest"},{"startTime":2021.097,"endTime":2024.8970000000002,"body":"growth, oftentimes what happens is"},{"startTime":2024.8970000000002,"endTime":2030.277,"body":"your forest assessor identifies some"},{"startTime":2024.8970000000002,"endTime":2030.277,"body":"sample plots, drives there, gets out of"},{"startTime":2030.277,"endTime":2034.482,"body":"his car, you know, goes in the middle,"},{"startTime":2030.277,"endTime":2034.482,"body":"picks a spot, stands, and then counts"},{"startTime":2034.502,"endTime":2038.7920000000001,"body":"the trees in the circle around him in"},{"startTime":2034.502,"endTime":2038.7920000000001,"body":"a certain diameter, and then measures"},{"startTime":2038.7920000000001,"endTime":2043.372,"body":"them at eye height, and then plugs all"},{"startTime":2038.7920000000001,"endTime":2043.372,"body":"those numbers into this equation that"},{"startTime":2043.372,"endTime":2046.622,"body":"basically tells him this is how much"},{"startTime":2043.372,"endTime":2046.622,"body":"biomass is on this square hectare."},{"startTime":2047.107,"endTime":2050.247,"body":"So if that sounds like a pretty"},{"startTime":2047.107,"endTime":2050.247,"body":"19th century way of doing"},{"startTime":2050.247,"endTime":2051.297,"body":"things, that's because it is."},{"startTime":2051.767,"endTime":2055.8469999999998,"body":"It hasn't really changed massively"},{"startTime":2051.767,"endTime":2055.8469999999998,"body":"but at the same time we have had these"},{"startTime":2055.8469999999998,"endTime":2059.8869999999997,"body":"incredible advances in technology, you"},{"startTime":2055.8469999999998,"endTime":2059.8869999999997,"body":"know, things like LIDAR, things that"},{"startTime":2059.897,"endTime":2065.037,"body":"every iPhone now comes equipped with,"},{"startTime":2059.897,"endTime":2065.037,"body":"with tools that you can use to do on"},{"startTime":2065.037,"endTime":2069.057,"body":"the ground measurement in a much more"},{"startTime":2065.037,"endTime":2069.057,"body":"accurate way, or the way that satellite"},{"startTime":2069.0769999999998,"endTime":2074.987,"body":"imagery has gone from a granularity of"},{"startTime":2069.0769999999998,"endTime":2074.987,"body":"like 30 metres, to 30 centimeters where"},{"startTime":2074.987,"endTime":2077.2670000000003,"body":"you can start to count individual trees."},{"startTime":2077.887,"endTime":2082.507,"body":"So those are all like we really want"},{"startTime":2077.887,"endTime":2082.507,"body":"to revolutionise the way we do that"},{"startTime":2082.567,"endTime":2086.457,"body":"forest measurement so that we have"},{"startTime":2082.567,"endTime":2086.457,"body":"a higher confidence in the final"},{"startTime":2086.507,"endTime":2090.907,"body":"numbers, but also so that it isn't"},{"startTime":2086.507,"endTime":2090.907,"body":"so, resource and labor intensive."},{"startTime":2091.967,"endTime":2095.167,"body":"Part of the reason why a lot of forestry"},{"startTime":2091.967,"endTime":2095.167,"body":"is just based on assessments is because"},{"startTime":2095.167,"endTime":2098.717,"body":"it's immensely resource intensive"},{"startTime":2095.167,"endTime":2098.717,"body":"to send someone around doing all"},{"startTime":2098.717,"endTime":2101.597,"body":"these measurements in by hand, right?"},{"startTime":2101.857,"endTime":2105.657,"body":"If you think of the CO2 footprint of"},{"startTime":2101.857,"endTime":2105.657,"body":"that guy driving around alone in his"},{"startTime":2105.657,"endTime":2108.587,"body":"truck in all these remote places,"},{"startTime":2105.657,"endTime":2108.587,"body":"that alone is kind of a disaster."},{"startTime":2109.067,"endTime":2111.837,"body":"But we have this technology,"},{"startTime":2109.067,"endTime":2111.837,"body":"we can do it much better."},{"startTime":2111.837,"endTime":2115.367,"body":"And so a big part of what we're"},{"startTime":2111.837,"endTime":2115.367,"body":"building in our internal tool, which"},{"startTime":2115.367,"endTime":2120.476,"body":"we refer to as trunk, like the trunk"},{"startTime":2115.367,"endTime":2120.476,"body":"of a tree, is along those principles."},{"startTime":2120.476,"endTime":2122.846,"body":"So how do we bring all that data in?"},{"startTime":2122.846,"endTime":2127.676,"body":"How do we take out the measurement"},{"startTime":2122.846,"endTime":2127.676,"body":"uncertainty, some of the analogness of it."},{"startTime":2127.976,"endTime":2129.896,"body":"It's not perfectly solved, solved yet."},{"startTime":2129.896,"endTime":2132.446,"body":"There's still, you know, something"},{"startTime":2129.896,"endTime":2132.446,"body":"like soil, carbon in forests, for"},{"startTime":2132.446,"endTime":2134.0660000000003,"body":"example, is a, is a big challenge."},{"startTime":2134.576,"endTime":2138.476,"body":"And we're exploring to see how, you know,"},{"startTime":2134.576,"endTime":2138.476,"body":"what's the cutting edge of science on"},{"startTime":2138.476,"endTime":2141.746,"body":"this one so that we can figure out if"},{"startTime":2138.476,"endTime":2141.746,"body":"there's anything we can bring on board."},{"startTime":2141.776,"endTime":2145.116,"body":"It is still really hard, but there's"},{"startTime":2141.776,"endTime":2145.116,"body":"already things we can do much better"},{"startTime":2145.116,"endTime":2147.326,"body":"than, than they've been done historically."},{"startTime":2147.856,"endTime":2150.8160000000003,"body":"Yeah, and that's what our digital twin"},{"startTime":2147.856,"endTime":2150.8160000000003,"body":"is all about, like really trying to"},{"startTime":2150.846,"endTime":2154.726,"body":"build up this data based view of the"},{"startTime":2150.846,"endTime":2154.726,"body":"same forest so you can make really"},{"startTime":2154.726,"endTime":2156.456,"body":"good decisions without having to go."},{"startTime":2157.006,"endTime":2158.536,"body":"On site in person necessarily."},{"startTime":2159.667,"endTime":2160.897,"body":"And there's been"},{"startTime":2161.457,"endTime":2161.497,"body":"a"},{"startTime":2161.497,"endTime":2167.887,"body":"significant pushback on"},{"startTime":2161.497,"endTime":2167.887,"body":"climate in the last six months,"},{"startTime":2167.907,"endTime":2170.387,"body":"probably since the US election."},{"startTime":2170.797,"endTime":2176.097,"body":"You're building a climate company in"},{"startTime":2170.797,"endTime":2176.097,"body":"2025, you know, what keeps you optimistic"},{"startTime":2176.137,"endTime":2179.237,"body":"when others are unfortunately retreating?"},{"startTime":2180.626,"endTime":2181.786,"body":"Yeah, great question."},{"startTime":2181.846,"endTime":2186.826,"body":"I think especially the last six weeks have"},{"startTime":2181.846,"endTime":2186.826,"body":"felt quite intense and changed, you know,"},{"startTime":2186.866,"endTime":2188.636,"body":"the macro situation is changing daily."},{"startTime":2189.206,"endTime":2192.866,"body":"I think two things one is i'm a big"},{"startTime":2189.206,"endTime":2192.866,"body":"believer that humankind is advanced enough"},{"startTime":2192.866,"endTime":2196.276,"body":"that we can have more than one focus"},{"startTime":2192.866,"endTime":2196.276,"body":"So, you know, even though everyone's"},{"startTime":2196.276,"endTime":2200.846,"body":"saying for example that defense is the"},{"startTime":2196.276,"endTime":2200.846,"body":"new focus and as an estonian 100% agree"},{"startTime":2201.026,"endTime":2206.5460000000003,"body":"defense is important geopolitics is"},{"startTime":2201.026,"endTime":2206.5460000000003,"body":"important But again, I am, I am a big"},{"startTime":2206.5460000000003,"endTime":2209.996,"body":"believer in humankind is pretty capable"},{"startTime":2206.5460000000003,"endTime":2209.996,"body":"and that we can have more than one"},{"startTime":2209.996,"endTime":2211.436,"body":"thing on our plate at the same time."},{"startTime":2211.526,"endTime":2215.3360000000002,"body":"We can focus on climate, and"},{"startTime":2211.526,"endTime":2215.3360000000002,"body":"on disease eradication, and on"},{"startTime":2215.3360000000002,"endTime":2216.946,"body":"reducing poverty in parallel."},{"startTime":2216.946,"endTime":2218.076,"body":"We don't have to pick and choose."},{"startTime":2218.456,"endTime":2222.016,"body":"So that's one thing is I think we sort of,"},{"startTime":2218.456,"endTime":2222.016,"body":"we have to, someone has to do the work."},{"startTime":2222.339,"endTime":2223.189,"body":"I want to be candid."},{"startTime":2223.189,"endTime":2224.369,"body":"It definitely is harder now."},{"startTime":2224.399,"endTime":2227.609,"body":"Like it is way harder to raise"},{"startTime":2224.399,"endTime":2227.609,"body":"money for companies in this space."},{"startTime":2228.149,"endTime":2229.539,"body":"Investors are worried."},{"startTime":2230.069,"endTime":2234.169,"body":"They tend to focus on whatever is the"},{"startTime":2230.069,"endTime":2234.169,"body":"topic du jour that gets the attention,"},{"startTime":2234.169,"endTime":2235.859,"body":"which tends to be AI recently."},{"startTime":2235.859,"endTime":2237.079,"body":"And now it's AI and defense."},{"startTime":2237.469,"endTime":2239.949,"body":"If we can combine the two, I"},{"startTime":2237.469,"endTime":2239.949,"body":"think we're on to a real winner."},{"startTime":2240.4990000000003,"endTime":2243.939,"body":"But I think the answer is, you know,"},{"startTime":2240.4990000000003,"endTime":2243.939,"body":"what it is for most entrepreneurs, which"},{"startTime":2243.939,"endTime":2245.699,"body":"is you just kind of have to keep going."},{"startTime":2246.099,"endTime":2249.619,"body":"So much of entrepreneurship is"},{"startTime":2246.099,"endTime":2249.619,"body":"sort of being kicked on a daily"},{"startTime":2249.619,"endTime":2250.959,"body":"basis and you still get back up."},{"startTime":2251.849,"endTime":2255.079,"body":"Maybe that's too pessimistic, but"},{"startTime":2251.849,"endTime":2255.079,"body":"that's one way to think about it."},{"startTime":2255.409,"endTime":2258.289,"body":"On the optimistic side, I do"},{"startTime":2255.409,"endTime":2258.289,"body":"still see a lot of interest."},{"startTime":2258.789,"endTime":2261.989,"body":"Like, yes, maybe the US on the"},{"startTime":2258.789,"endTime":2261.989,"body":"governmental level is stepping back from"},{"startTime":2261.989,"endTime":2265.509,"body":"climate and banning the mention of climate"},{"startTime":2261.989,"endTime":2265.509,"body":"change in their internal documents."},{"startTime":2266.029,"endTime":2268.359,"body":"But then you can see the private"},{"startTime":2266.029,"endTime":2268.359,"body":"sector stepping up, right?"},{"startTime":2268.389,"endTime":2274.002,"body":"I think Michael Bloomberg promising to"},{"startTime":2268.389,"endTime":2274.002,"body":"back the US's Paris Agreement commitments"},{"startTime":2274.352,"endTime":2276.922,"body":"personally is, is a good example of that."},{"startTime":2276.922,"endTime":2281.002,"body":"Like, there are cases where people"},{"startTime":2276.922,"endTime":2281.002,"body":"and organisations with money who"},{"startTime":2281.002,"endTime":2283.922,"body":"care and who are willing to put"},{"startTime":2281.002,"endTime":2283.922,"body":"their money where their mouth is."},{"startTime":2284.372,"endTime":2286.082,"body":"I think that hasn't changed overnight."},{"startTime":2286.612,"endTime":2289.072,"body":"So yeah, we, we have to"},{"startTime":2286.612,"endTime":2289.072,"body":"keep going in the meantime,"},{"startTime":2290.782,"endTime":2291.512,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":2291.522,"endTime":2297.472,"body":"For, listeners who maybe own land or"},{"startTime":2291.522,"endTime":2297.472,"body":"work in sustainability, what's the"},{"startTime":2297.472,"endTime":2301.652,"body":"most important step they can take"},{"startTime":2297.472,"endTime":2301.652,"body":"today to ensure forests play a bigger"},{"startTime":2301.652,"endTime":2303.052,"body":"role in fighting climate change?"},{"startTime":2304.079,"endTime":2307.389,"body":"If you own land, I think just go out"},{"startTime":2304.079,"endTime":2307.389,"body":"into your forest every once in a while"},{"startTime":2307.389,"endTime":2311.559,"body":"and appreciate it and be grateful for"},{"startTime":2307.389,"endTime":2311.559,"body":"the role it's it's playing, I think."},{"startTime":2311.929,"endTime":2316.359,"body":"Not to mention has great, great mental"},{"startTime":2311.929,"endTime":2316.359,"body":"and health benefits, spending time in"},{"startTime":2316.359,"endTime":2321.2490000000003,"body":"forests But I think for anyone who works"},{"startTime":2316.359,"endTime":2321.2490000000003,"body":"in sustainability, I think just being able"},{"startTime":2321.2490000000003,"endTime":2325.459,"body":"to, to be open and, you know, not zeroing"},{"startTime":2321.2490000000003,"endTime":2325.459,"body":"in on like, what is the one solution?"},{"startTime":2325.469,"endTime":2328.629,"body":"The one solution is technology based"},{"startTime":2325.469,"endTime":2328.629,"body":"carbon removal, or the one solution"},{"startTime":2328.629,"endTime":2332.849,"body":"is electrifying everything, or the one"},{"startTime":2328.629,"endTime":2332.849,"body":"solution is modular nuclear, whatever"},{"startTime":2332.849,"endTime":2335.619,"body":"else might be your particular pet idea."},{"startTime":2335.859,"endTime":2339.2490000000003,"body":"I think it's just maintaining that"},{"startTime":2335.859,"endTime":2339.2490000000003,"body":"broadness of perspective that actually"},{"startTime":2339.279,"endTime":2340.839,"body":"we need a lot of different solutions."},{"startTime":2340.969,"endTime":2344.009,"body":"Nature is a key one, but it"},{"startTime":2340.969,"endTime":2344.009,"body":"is not the silver bullet."},{"startTime":2344.4790000000003,"endTime":2345.799,"body":"I'm not saying only do this."},{"startTime":2345.799,"endTime":2349.329,"body":"I'm saying absolutely do everything"},{"startTime":2345.799,"endTime":2349.329,"body":"you can and just keep it in mind"},{"startTime":2349.339,"endTime":2350.789,"body":"that I think it's a very valid."},{"startTime":2351.3940000000002,"endTime":2352.554,"body":"Part of the puzzle."},{"startTime":2353.114,"endTime":2355.004,"body":"It deserves respect in that role."},{"startTime":2355.504,"endTime":2357.304,"body":"Yeah, I think that's the main idea."},{"startTime":2358.329,"endTime":2358.679,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2359.089,"endTime":2360.159,"body":"Left field question."},{"startTime":2361.039,"endTime":2366.449,"body":"If you could have any person or"},{"startTime":2361.039,"endTime":2366.449,"body":"character, alive or dead,  real or"},{"startTime":2366.449,"endTime":2371.719,"body":"fictional, as a spokesperson for"},{"startTime":2366.449,"endTime":2371.719,"body":"afforestation, who would it be and why?"},{"startTime":2372.969,"endTime":2373.329,"body":"Oh,"},{"startTime":2374.799,"endTime":2375.564,"body":"Winnie the Pooh."},{"startTime":2375.884,"endTime":2379.434,"body":"I feel like Winnie the Pooh had a real"},{"startTime":2375.884,"endTime":2379.434,"body":"appreciation for the hundred acre wood."},{"startTime":2379.924,"endTime":2384.344,"body":"So I feel like he can, he can"},{"startTime":2379.924,"endTime":2384.344,"body":"really, you know, sell the benefits"},{"startTime":2385.234,"endTime":2389.694,"body":"to all ages, all, I feel like in"},{"startTime":2385.234,"endTime":2389.694,"body":"language that speaks to everyone."},{"startTime":2390.274,"endTime":2390.534,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2392.494,"endTime":2397.098,"body":"Him or Groot, but the problem with Groot"},{"startTime":2392.494,"endTime":2397.098,"body":"is, his vocabulary is quite limited, no?"},{"startTime":2398.824,"endTime":2399.344,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2399.844,"endTime":2403.414,"body":"Yeah, I'm sorry if you needed a"},{"startTime":2399.844,"endTime":2403.414,"body":"more serious answer, but I can"},{"startTime":2403.414,"endTime":2404.844,"body":"think of a more serious one as well."},{"startTime":2405.459,"endTime":2405.7690000000002,"body":"no, no."},{"startTime":2405.789,"endTime":2406.079,"body":"It's fine."},{"startTime":2406.129,"endTime":2406.429,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2406.429,"endTime":2406.789,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2407.779,"endTime":2410.829,"body":"We're coming towards the end of"},{"startTime":2407.779,"endTime":2410.829,"body":"the podcast now, Lisett, is there"},{"startTime":2410.829,"endTime":2415.039,"body":"any question I didn't ask that you"},{"startTime":2410.829,"endTime":2415.039,"body":"wish I did or any aspect of this we"},{"startTime":2415.039,"endTime":2417.819,"body":"haven't touched on that you think it's"},{"startTime":2415.039,"endTime":2417.819,"body":"important for people to think about?"},{"startTime":2418.577,"endTime":2420.567,"body":"No, I think we've covered it quite well."},{"startTime":2420.577,"endTime":2422.677,"body":"I mean, obviously this is"},{"startTime":2420.577,"endTime":2422.677,"body":"one of my favorite topics."},{"startTime":2422.677,"endTime":2425.707,"body":"I could keep going on for"},{"startTime":2422.677,"endTime":2425.707,"body":"hours, but I think I want to"},{"startTime":2425.707,"endTime":2426.937,"body":"spare everyone else from that."},{"startTime":2428.081,"endTime":2431.091,"body":"I think the one interesting area"},{"startTime":2428.081,"endTime":2431.091,"body":"we didn't get into is, you know,"},{"startTime":2431.121,"endTime":2434.261,"body":"what's happening with the voluntary"},{"startTime":2431.121,"endTime":2434.261,"body":"market and regulation in the future."},{"startTime":2434.261,"endTime":2438.331,"body":"And there's a lot there and there's"},{"startTime":2434.261,"endTime":2438.331,"body":"a lot of mixed signals, but I do"},{"startTime":2438.331,"endTime":2442.386,"body":"believe we're eventually going to"},{"startTime":2438.331,"endTime":2442.386,"body":"get to a point where what solves the"},{"startTime":2442.386,"endTime":2445.2960000000003,"body":"trust issue in the voluntary carbon"},{"startTime":2442.386,"endTime":2445.2960000000003,"body":"markets is more standardisation and"},{"startTime":2445.2960000000003,"endTime":2448.706,"body":"regulation, and it's kind of already"},{"startTime":2445.2960000000003,"endTime":2448.706,"body":"happening in Europe or going to happen."},{"startTime":2449.036,"endTime":2450.846,"body":"So I think that is a"},{"startTime":2449.036,"endTime":2450.846,"body":"big piece of the puzzle."},{"startTime":2451.666,"endTime":2453.246,"body":"Sort of to one of your earlier questions."},{"startTime":2453.266,"endTime":2458.456,"body":"But yeah, I think we, we can't, we don't"},{"startTime":2453.266,"endTime":2458.456,"body":"have time to go into in depth there."},{"startTime":2458.456,"endTime":2461.376,"body":"But for anyone that's interested,"},{"startTime":2458.456,"endTime":2461.376,"body":"I would look up the European Carbon"},{"startTime":2461.406,"endTime":2466.996,"body":"Removal Certification Framework,"},{"startTime":2461.406,"endTime":2466.996,"body":"and how that might impact the space."},{"startTime":2467.942,"endTime":2471.317,"body":"Lisett if people would like to know"},{"startTime":2467.942,"endTime":2471.317,"body":"more about yourself or any of the things"},{"startTime":2471.317,"endTime":2474.0370000000003,"body":"we discussed in the podcast today,"},{"startTime":2471.317,"endTime":2474.0370000000003,"body":"where would you have me direct them?"},{"startTime":2475.402,"endTime":2478.6620000000003,"body":"So you can find out more"},{"startTime":2475.402,"endTime":2478.6620000000003,"body":"about Arbonics on our website."},{"startTime":2478.9120000000003,"endTime":2480.172,"body":"Just arbonics."},{"startTime":2480.202,"endTime":2480.562,"body":"com."},{"startTime":2480.752,"endTime":2483.312,"body":"That's like Arbo, like Latin for tree."},{"startTime":2483.812,"endTime":2486.582,"body":"Or you can reach out to me via email."},{"startTime":2486.6420000000003,"endTime":2487.742,"body":"Lizette at arbonics."},{"startTime":2487.782,"endTime":2489.982,"body":"com or on BlueSky."},{"startTime":2490.3920000000003,"endTime":2493.522,"body":"Where I like to have good debates"},{"startTime":2490.3920000000003,"endTime":2493.522,"body":"about nature based solutions."},{"startTime":2494.967,"endTime":2495.547,"body":"Fantastic."},{"startTime":2495.817,"endTime":2497.937,"body":"I'll put those links in the"},{"startTime":2495.817,"endTime":2497.937,"body":"show notes as well, Lisett, so"},{"startTime":2497.967,"endTime":2499.097,"body":"everyone has access to them."},{"startTime":2499.687,"endTime":2500.097,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2500.407,"endTime":2502.407,"body":"Lisett thanks a million for"},{"startTime":2500.407,"endTime":2502.407,"body":"coming on the podcast today."},{"startTime":2503.342,"endTime":2504.452,"body":"Thank you for having me, Tom."},{"startTime":2505.026,"endTime":2506.896,"body":"Okay, we've come to the end of the show."},{"startTime":2507.616,"endTime":2508.726,"body":"Thanks everyone for listening."},{"startTime":2509.5860000000002,"endTime":2513.736,"body":"If you'd like to know more about the"},{"startTime":2509.5860000000002,"endTime":2513.736,"body":"Climate Confident podcast, feel free to"},{"startTime":2513.746,"endTime":2517.656,"body":"drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook."},{"startTime":2517.906,"endTime":2521.386,"body":"com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter."},{"startTime":2521.956,"endTime":2525.696,"body":"If you like the show, please don't"},{"startTime":2521.956,"endTime":2525.696,"body":"forget to click follow on it in your"},{"startTime":2525.716,"endTime":2530.196,"body":"podcast application of choice to get new"},{"startTime":2525.716,"endTime":2530.196,"body":"episodes as soon as they're published."},{"startTime":2530.826,"endTime":2533.786,"body":"Also, please don't forget to"},{"startTime":2530.826,"endTime":2533.786,"body":"rate and review the podcast."},{"startTime":2533.986,"endTime":2536.516,"body":"It really does help new"},{"startTime":2533.986,"endTime":2536.516,"body":"people to find the show."},{"startTime":2537.606,"endTime":2538.056,"body":"Thanks."},{"startTime":2538.726,"endTime":2539.646,"body":"Catch you all next time."}]}