How Lignin Could Replace 40% of the World’s Plastics, and Cut Emissions Fast

In this week’s episode of Climate Confident, I sat down with Christopher Carrick, founder and CTO of Lignin Industries, to explore a game-changing innovation in the fight against plastic pollution, turning waste from the paper industry into carbon-negative bioplastics.

Christopher’s story starts in his kitchen, where curiosity (and a Star Wars ice-cube tray) led to a breakthrough: modifying lignin, the brown polymer in wood, so it can be melted, shaped, and blended into everyday plastics like polypropylene, polyethylene, and ABS. The result? Materials that can replace up to 40 percent of fossil plastics, perform just as well, and even smell faintly of forest.

We unpacked how this process works, why recyclability and stability are critical, and how Lignin’s bioplastics outperform many “green” alternatives by avoiding thermal degradation during recycling. Christopher also explains why regulation — not technology — is now the biggest bottleneck in decarbonising the plastics sector.

What struck me most is the scale of impact possible here. Plastics are one of the hardest sectors to clean up, yet Lignin’s approach shows that circularity, chemistry, and creativity can combine to make fossil-free materials commercially viable.

We also touched on scalability, partnerships, and the hope Christopher finds in consumers — the moment someone holds one of their wood-scented bags and realises that sustainability can feel good too.

🎧 Listen in to hear how lignin could transform the global plastics market — and why the future might just smell like trees.

👉 Available now on climateconfidentpodcast.com and all major podcast platforms.

Keywords: bioplastics, lignin, sustainable materials, circular economy, plastic recycling, decarbonisation, climate innovation, fossil-free plastics

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Music credits - Intro by Joseph McDade, and Outro music for this podcast was composed, played, and produced by my daughter Luna Juniper

Transcript

0:03

If you consider that we are now digging up 400 million year old oil, turning it into a plastic bag, and then we use it for a minute or two, and then we discard it. Dinosaurs died out about 70 million years ago. So, that is younger than most of the fossil fuels. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 242 of the Climate Confident Podcast, the go-to show for best practices in climate emissions reductions. I'm your host, Tom Raftery, and before we get started, a quick reminder. This podcast now has a subscription option for just five euros or dollars a month. You can unlock the full back catalog of hundreds of conversations with climate leaders who are actually moving the needle. Subscribers also, get a personal shout out here in the show plus direct access to me so you can pitch new directions, guests and ideas for climate confident. Everyone else still gets the most recent 30 days of episodes for free. But if you want the archive and a hand on the steering wheel, hit the subscribe link in the show notes, and you are in. No new subscribers this week. But if you've been on the fence, now's the time to join. Now onto today's conversation. We talk a lot in this show about decarbonizing, energy, transport, and industry, but what about other materials? The stuff we touch every day, packaging products and plastics. My guest this week is Christopher Carrick, founder and CTO of Lignin Industries, a Swedish startup, turning waste from the paper industry into high performance bioplastics. Christopher explains how they're replacing up to 40% of fossil based plastics with lignin a renewable carbon negative ingredient that's recyclable, scalable, and yes, smells faintly of forest. We discussed the chemistry, the challenges, and why regulation, not technology is the missing link in the plastics transition. Christopher, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Sure. Christopher Carrick, founder of Lignin Industries. Spent way too many hours in the lab and then, out of a coincidence, I happened to run into this innovation. And here I am, a CTO today still part of the company. An entrepreneur, I would say, I could intro introduce myself as. Super. And you said Lignin Industries, right? That's a company that was founded by yourself. You're now CTO to create bioplastics. Is that right? Correct, correct. What was, your journey into that? I've been, as I said, spent a lot of hours in the lab and then at some point I started to focus on biomass and I love the fact that biomass, it grows and it's a natural resource. And then back in my home, in my kitchen, I was basically exploring stuff that I was typically not doing at, at the lab when doing a PhD. So I happened to found a large interest in lignin, which is the, the brown part in wood that is basically discarded when making white paper from brown wood or turning it into ethanol or wood or biomass into ethanol, and then you have these leftovers, which is the lignin. So it's always been very tricky to work with because quite undefined and, hard. So, so I spent some hours back in the kitchen where I lived. I played around with it and I realised that I could change the lignin structure in a way that it became thermoplastic. So you could melt it and form it and, and do cool stuff with it. And then I was a dad at that point. So, so me and my son was, we were very into Star Wars, so I bought this Star Wars ice cube makers so in the form of Chewbacca, and you could make ice out of those, but instead of making ice, I was doing so, so, this modified lignin that was thermoplastic. So I put them in the oven, I increased the temperature, and then I was starting to do ice cube trays, but not ice, but out of lignin or this modified lignin. And it became, and out came this perfect Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Chewbacca, which was my obvious favourite because he's brown and lignin is brown. And I showed this to a friend of mine that was also into materials and so forth, and he said that this is truly an innovation to, to do this and you should start a company on this. And I said, no, I'm not so into that. I have, you know, I have plenty of, other stuff to do but then, that little question said to me. And, and about half a year, year later the company was founded and we realised that we could work with this modified lignin and, and blend it into normal plastics and to make that plastic partially better or taking several steps ahead of, of cutting the dependence on fossil fuel. So on, on that journey, it started that's the history of, of, of my history and of Lignin, but the force of doing this, I've always been very into industries and different industries, and there are very big differences between the, the fossil heavy or the refinery oil type of industry. And then we have the forest industry, which is water based and a complete different mentality of, of running those. And I've been very curious about the differences between these two industries. And what I do love about the fossil industry or the refinery industry, is that they truly respect the raw materials. So every molecule. Almost every molecule that goes into that refinery turns out to be a product in, in one way or the other. It could be gasoline for, for fuels or purposes, or it could be asphalt for road. It could be plastics for for plastics. The main problem with that industry is obviously they, they take fossil oil however, the biomass industry and the pulp and paper industry where I come from, they are extremely good in utilising biomass and turning that into paper or, other viscoes or textiles or, or whatever. But the main challenge with that industry is that it's only utilising maybe half of the tree while burning the rest of it. So they're not really paying the respect to, to the raw material in the same fashion as the oil and refinery business. And the most things that we, we burn in the biomass industry is the lignin. So taking what is good from the oil and gas type of industry and trying to have the same idea and thinking about the biomass and forest industry is what I'm trying to do. So basically utilising that tree. Stop it from being burnt to turn it into product that can be sold. So that's one of the main driving forces why I picked to, zoom in on, lignin. Okay, great. And talk to me about the process. You get this lignin. And how do you turn it into bioplastic? So we get this lignin as it is a fine powder, brown powder, it looks like chocolate powder that you make hot chocolate from. We take this we heat it up together with a biooil. So we modify it by attaching a biooil onto the polymeric structure of lignin. And what happens is a couple of things. First thing is that this polymer becomes more hydrophobic, which means more oily as a chemical character. Second thing that happens is that the lignin goes from being a powder that almost cannot be melted into a material that can be melted and shaped and formed the way you want. So basically acting or as a thermoplastic. The third thing that happens, which we've realised lately it's quite important, and that is it stabilises the polymer in terms of thermal degradation. So biomass typically burn by itself at 180, 190, 200 degrees Celsius. And we prevent that we, we prolong that, we push that to maybe 240, 250 degrees Celsius before it burns. Super important when working with other plastics because they are typically processed at 200 degrees Celsius. So enable our material to, to work in an infrastructure, a plastic infrastructure. So this is what we do. The technology, what it enables our technology is to to take this lignin that is more oily. And it actually mixes quite well with some of the plastics that we use. We as consumer use every day. So we can mix in up to 40% of this modified lignin in polyethylene polypropylene, or in ABS which are the some standard plastics. Polyethylenes is, is used for bags and packaging materials. Pp is, I believe, the most common plastic you have in your home. So a lot of home devices, home kitchen stuff and, and and a lot of packaging as well. And then we have ABS which is in the Lego is ABS a lot of things in automotive is ABS, most of your electronic parts is made out of ABS, so we make these plastics partly better is is what we're trying to do. Okay, so this isn't a complete plastic substitute. What it is, is it's an ingredient that can go into plastics that reduces their reliance on fossil fuels, correct? Correct. And it's not a small part. One can consider 40% that, ah, it's not that good. I would say 40% is very, very high. We started out with maybe 10, 15%. And as we develop and, and continue our work, we are now up to 40% in PP. We still at maybe 20, 25 in ABS. Still preserving the mechanical properties, obviously. And we aim to, to gradually increase this incrementally over time, but replacing 40% of what you typically, or 30 or 20 of what you typically use, it's huge. It's so big. So today, if we look at the market of plastics as such, it's less than, or about 1% of the entire flow of plastics are bioplastics. Only 9% of the plastics are recycled plastics on a global level. So being able to replace 20, 30, perhaps 40% of some of the items is huge. And it's also, there are several benefits. We can, I don't know if you want to me to, to continue. That was actually gonna be my next question, you know, what are the advantages of using bioplastic versus fossil fuels then? So first of all we compare the two different feedstock materials, so fossil fuels and I sometimes I go to the philosophical way when thinking about stuff. But fossil fuel, if you, if you double click on fossil, what is fossil? Fossil for me is something very old. And if you consider that we are now digging up 400 million year old oil, turning it into a plastic bag, and then we use it for a minute or two, and then we discard it. Dinosaurs died out about 70 million years ago. So, that is younger than most of the fossil fuels. Just to put context on it. And, and that's the main drawback of fossil it's, not really growing. It's not really, it will be depleted since every gram or kilo of of fossil stuff we use, we need to wait another 400 years until 400 million years until it's reproduced. While biomass, it's, one year to 30 years. But the, the benefits going back to the original question, which was why do we mix in 40%? I think it's also when we're working with the plastic industry and brand owners, it is also a safety point. We have realised that if we, we can go to our customer and say, okay, you can mix in up to 40%. You still have the 60% that you know, you know, how it behaves, you know exactly how to process it, how to operate it, how to shape it, form it, and how it feels, et cetera. And then everyone is afraid when changing from something to something new. And then we can always say, well, if you're super afraid, well the risks you wanna take, it's up to you. You can, we can mix in 5%, but it's still, you know, much better than zero. But we can go to, we can take incremental steps, making it more easy and appealing for, for a customer to, to take the steps and perhaps link them to the KPIs that you have in your company. Why do they want to do this? Main thing is CO2 reduction. So carbon dioxide if that is important to you our material is one of the, you know, least CO2 consum, we are taking waste that is made from biomass that grows, we are putting it into something that is a plastic. So we decrease the CO2 dependence on these materials. Scope three type of challenges. Quite heavily, a much more heavy or higher impact if, if you replace it without material compared to recycled plastics, for instance. Walk me through that. Why, why that difference? So recycled plastics is still fossil, so the material is still, you know, coming from it's a good thing to do. I love recycle plastics. Since it's still made from, from fossil, you, you, it, it cannot be renewed. And the recycled plastics, if we're going into the data of it has about 0.7 kilograms of CO2 per per kilograms of material. So that is the, the, the number to beat for us. So since biomass is growing at the expense of atmospheric carbon dioxide, since, you know, photosynthesis, they, the trees grow by absorbing CO2 from the air and together with water and some sunlight, it converts, it absorbs. It sucks out this CO2 when, when biomass is grown. So that means that for every kilo that we use, that is not burnt and released back to the atmosphere. We bind this carbon dioxide creating a, a net zero or negative carbon footprint material as the base material for us. So ours is about when we do formulations that we then sell to the plastic industry. They are negative carbon. One kilo hour material is minus 0.5 kilograms or less depending on the formulation per kilo that we put in so much more potent than a recycled plastic. Okay. Okay. And for the plastic manufacturers, can they take, example, 20, 30, 40% of your lignin and combine it with then recycled plastic to be even more carbon negative? Or would that work? Yes. So today we have a couple of customers that have 0% virgin plastics. So what they do is they take 20, 30%, as you say, of our material. And mix that with the rest is recycled materials. If you do this carefully and you pick the right recycling grade, you end up with a material that is net zero. So zero kilograms per kilo until it's burned. If you burn it, then you release some of the CO2 again, of course. But those materials are really, really interesting. From a scientific, perhaps from a marketing story, some of the brands we work with want that material because it's what we aim and strive for, for 2050 type of targets. Most of the companies does not want this because it's slightly more expensive and, they don't really know whether the market's gonna appreciate that or not. Some of the brands doesn't care about the market. It's just this is our DNA and and, and what we have to do. So, that's why we do it. And, doesn't matter if the market wants it or not. And those brands we love, obviously most of the, the, the, the customers that we work with just want to do, a stepwise approach. And then we use less of our material, perhaps a little bit more of the, the virgin type of materials and yes or no to the recycling grades. have a lot of different formulations and it's different in almost every case. But yeah, so, so it depends, But we do love what we always go to, to a customer is our preferred choice, which is no virgin material and, and only recycled plastics together with our plastics. And to, to us it's quite interesting as well. Our material, it behaves better when we're working with recycling grades rather than virgin grades. I don't know really why. So we, we are doubling down on that. So material property wise. It could be actually better with recycling grades rather than, than virgin grades. And maybe we're lucky when, when picking the recycling grade or perhaps there are something else, And, better in what aspect? Mechanical properties. So we always want to give a formulation, a material to, a company. They have certain specs on these materials. They need to withstand UV, or a speaker has to be dropped from a certain height, still being functional and not destroyed. So we always try to make the choice as easy as possible for a customer. So preserving mechanical properties, I think is key. It doesn't matter what the price is unless you, deliver on the properties and the functions you, you want to have. And then so, so those things is what I typically mean. So Christopher, the bioplastic you have, I mean, you can take in recycled plastic to help make it, but what happens at end of useful life of this bioplastic is it then itself recyclable? Yeah. So this is something we have really looked into. One of the first hurdles or, or challenges were, that is important today, within the plastic industry is being recycled. So it's a lot of regulations that are also coming in, and this is important. We have double clicked and, and zoomed in, in the recycling story of our material. So, what we have done is that we have looked at the existing recycling infrastructure and how it's done with these three different materials that I've mentioned. And it's different in Sweden, it's different in Germany, it's different in US. There's differences everywhere. Sure. But the general things that, that the material goes through is first a sorting. You need to identify it as polyethylene polypropylene or ABS. That is done through a near infrared type of scanner. And what happens with our material when it's mixed in with the, the plastics is that up to 60% of our material, so beyond the formulations we do, then the material is still identified as the the carrier polymer. So we're good to go in that. step. And the next step in sorting is sink and float. So you measure density, so if you have polyethylene or polypropylene, you would like it to, to float and have a density less than one. This is also achieved in the formulation if we have less than 30% of our material. So now I'm talking about the open recycling when we're throwing things in the municipality type of sorting plastics. So those two are both ticked off from a sorting point of view. And here comes the challenge, which is the re compounding step. So you melt the plastic down into a shape and form of a pellet, and then you incorporate that into the plastic industry. So that is done today at 210, 220 degrees Celsius. Coming back to why the three things that, that was important that we realised lately, and that is the increased thermal stability of, of our material. As long as you are below 240 degree Celsius with, with arm, and you are in that, you're 200, 210, perhaps 220 degrees Celsius in a recycling infrastructure. So we're still preserving, we're still not, burning this raw material so it still melts and can be pelletised. So, we are playing with the recycling story. We want to have this material as long lasting and as circulating as many times as possible. The good thing, so we're actually adding a little feature to the recycling infrastructure as well. So lignin is, is filled with, is called aromatics or phenolics. Phenolics are typically added the recycling streams. Why? Because it's an antioxidant. The function of an antioxidant is to protect the virgin fossil plastics to not thermally degrade. So when we are putting in 15, 20% of our material, we're loading a lot of antioxidants in this material. So we're preserving the, the material. So every time you recycle a fossil plastic, it degrades every time. So what happens is that when we are tub boosted the material with antioxidants, we can recycle. We've done 12 loops without losing properties. And that's much, much better. So four loops for a neat PE and then it will be destroyed. Theoretically these materials can be recycled many, many more times before you need to incinerate the plastics out of lack of performance. So, so those things are key. And then of course, the fourth thing is that the material needs to be mechanically, acting on a good level. And, and here again, we are putting materials that behave exactly as polyethylene would do, or how, how brand owner would like a bag to function. So we are playing, we are fulfilling all these, boxes. But then obviously in, in the plastic industry, you need, you don't really want the recycling grades needs to be a color and a lot of specifications today when buying recycled plastics is, it needs to be 99% polyethylene and it's such a large stream, so it will be diluted. But again, we are recyclable. And we have really looked into this, and I think this is a, different story. This is the challenge for many other bioplastics. So they degrade at 200 degrees Celsius and once you re compound it, you completely destroy these materials because you burn it. That's where we are in recycling. And what kind of additional price are you adding onto, I don't know, a kilo of plastic or however you measure the, the cost of plastic? Yeah, it depends on, on the formulation obviously, but what we have, we are slightly more expensive. So in the three different fields that we, we are targeting at the moment, which is polyethylene, polypropylene, and ABS. Polyethylene and polypropylene are the cheapest plastics materials there are. We're obviously more expensive than, than the cheapest bulk polymers. Here we are about maybe 60, 70% more expensive, but then again, you dilute it. So if you compare kilo to kilo, if you use 10% or 20 or 30%, price is diluted obviously as well. If you compare the polymer to polymer. So ABS on the other hand, we are almost on price parity with virgin ABS. So Virgin, ABS. It also is different from grade to grade and country to country, but the, it's about 2.4, 2.5 euros, a kilo, and we are almost on the same level. So again, making it easy for the customer. Giving it for almost the same price, same performance. What we actually add is the color. So the neat thing about what we do is that the plastics, we all have a sense and a feeling about plastics. What we actually provide is a touch of trees in, in smell wise. So you get a perception. You get a feeling, an instant feeling when, when getting a bag or a, or a speaker with, with our material you instantly get a woody touch and a woody smell from that speaker. However, it's plastic. So it's a little bit of a mind f**k But I love the touch and, and this is a design feature that goes beyond shape and form and color. It goes to the scent as well. And suddenly these plastic materials tells you a story that this is a biomass and it's a plastic and it's, it's a really eco feeling to it. This has been the key, attribute for when, when we're doing e-commerce bags. So the type of bags you, you get when buying something online and it comes wrapped up in a, in a plastic bag. And that bag has a small sense of scent, of, of forest or, or sauna or a woody or forest type of smell. And it's, we we're getting this several times now that, you know, your biggest add-on your most important USP is your smell and your touch, and you, you can instantly like the material since it tells a different story. And I think this is also just, I want to double down on this. Stop me if I'm talking too much about this. But, but when we are, so, when I'm sad, it's that this, the, the plastic industry is slow and is very risk avert. I had KT at university in, in Sweden, visiting me two weeks ago. And all these individuals as consumers they instantly love the type of bags and the smell and the and the story tells. This is going back to a wood shop or getting a feeling to a bag. And that really, that is one of the key things that gets me going the. The feedback I get from you, like us as people and getting a bag in our hand rather than, and, and, and then I realise that we are onto something. This needs to be a successful story. Will be more and more people will. Well, if, if the customer truly likes it, perhaps the industry needs to adopt. And, and give this to, perhaps there is a market for it and I'm quite sure it's, but that is what gives me energy. Talk to me about the scalability. I mean, part of the issue you mentioned about the price, particularly with the PP the cheaper versions, you had said there's about a 60% price differential. I'm assuming, if you scale more, that price differential will decrease. You'll become more on par. Maybe I'm wrong, but usually as you scale things up, you get economies of scale and you get a learning curve, meaning your costs and your learnings reduce the price. So how scalable is it and do you see yourself getting to price parity in time? Good question. I always typically go to the, where we are right now our strategy and what we will do in the future. So yes, we will beat fossil prices as well. So, already next year, we believe we will be cheaper than virgin ABS. Okay. Already next year in these higher grades for PP and, PE. So polyethylene and polypropylene, we believe we will be cheaper than those raw materials within five to 10 years. And that comes from economy of scale. So how do we scale? How do we solve this? So today, it is two thing that drives costs for us, the lignin price. So today is almost no one buying lignin. So there is basically no one supplying lignin. So economy and scale in that regard will decrease the price quite heavily. Today you are burning lignin. So the energy value of lignin is about 0.1 or less than 0.1 euro a kilo. Polypropylene was 1.4. So it's a 10 fold increase. So the raw material we are competing against energy burning this stuff. So raw material prices should go down. There is just, you know, if we are on equal terms or slightly higher than, than energy value, we have decreased the price of raw material quite substantially. Second thing is the model how we scale. So today we can produce about 2000 tons in the facility we have close to Arlanda Stockholm Airport. And that's very small in a, 400 million tons plastic market. So how we, we do this modification on lignin in a typical plastic infrastructure called extruders. Two warm screws that are heating up materials and processing them, basically mixing the different compo components together. We use the same equipment when producing our stuff. So the, what this means is that we can go to the plastic industry and instead of, building up our own infrastructure for our production, we can rather go and rent or, or buy spec over there is an over capacity today in the plastic market. And we can go to these people and say, you know what? We can, instead of, we can produce more with the already existing infrastructure, but instead of using this fossil feedstock when you have time over we buy this time and we produce our material. And when we are looking into this we have about, you know, there's a massive amount of volumes that can be produced almost overnight. And today we have a partner in, in Sweden and in France a tall compounder it's called. So Lego producer for us, that can go from the 2000 tons we have today up to 20, 30,000 tons with the already existing infrastructure. Which means that we don't buy capital, we don't take risk in, purchasing all this expensive stuff. We'd rather go and say, can we buy half of your time and produce what we need to produce? And you can continue producing the other stuff as you go. And that will also obviously optimise life for, for not just us, for, for the plastic industry as well filling up their, their factories and, and process lines. Okay. So you're looking at scaling, not solely by producing this yourself, but also maybe by licensing, or as you said, partnering with already existing companies. Yes. So partnering is our key. I think we still need to be the storyteller of our solution. We're not at the point where someone else can tell the story that we can, and the formulations. I think we, it's a buy sell type of, so we buy time at an already existing infrastructure, we get the material back and we sell that to, to the market, and we develop that market. Today it's just a service for us, more or less, I believe over time when this has been, when this is more mature a licensing model is or maybe expanding to a different market, let's say Asia or US, or Africa. We're focused today on, on Europe. But a copy, you know, we use plastic bags in, in all corners of the world. So I guess, but we're not really at the point where we can license it because we need to tell the story. But soon, or maybe in two, three years from now, we might be at the point where, where we could. And, do you think we're moving fast enough on the material transition front, or is this just another slow motion climate delay? I think on the tech side I'm very optimistic. There are so many tech solutions and not just us that can provide this material that is as functional as the ones you've already, or always used. Main problem is why change? So when we are working with the plastic industry they know how to sell the plastics that they've sold for 20 years. They have not really considered that CO2 is a new property they should include in, in the offering and they don't know how to sell CO2 reduction is the general feeling I have. But the brand owners on the other side, they are a lot of brand owners and consumers such as us, we, we appreciate the smaller the large steps we take. So that is from a marketing point of view, driving a little bit of of change. And why do they do this? I think do this out of a, a belief, a heart story rather than a a regulated story. And that's the frustration. The frustration for me is that there is no reasons to change from fossil to anything better from a plastic point of view. There is no regulations in place, there are no drives, there are no bans. There are, you know, very few. And that's the plastic industry. And why would we sell a slightly more expensive, or why would a plastic industry buy something slightly more expensive, when they're not they don't need to. They don't know how to sell it and they don't need to do it, and it's more expensive. So it is all the bad things. However, some of the brands would like to do this, but they do it out of a heart or a, you know, this is good to do. And that's one observation. The other observation is that the second we force this transition, because again, there are solutions to the problem. Oil transition takes a lot of fight and a lot of energy to, to go through. Once we are there, we know that we can be as cost efficient as fossil plastics. We know that we can provide as functional material as is on the market. It's just a transition period that needs to have help and guidance perhaps from regulatories or quotas as in the aviation, sustainable aviation fuel is happening a lot because of regulations fuels well but not in plastics. Interesting. And, seeing as you're mentioning brands, we've seen Barbies made from recycled plastic and IKEA embracing bioplastics. Which brand would be your dream partnership for scaling real impact? I have always a dream, and that is, you know, I love the brand, Patagonia. We don't work with them. Just to, to to to mention that, so Patagonia is, driven by a highly passionate and non compromising type of idea about how the world should be. And so my dream brand to work with would be Patagonia out of, you know, the true belief in, in, in what the brand is all about. And for me, Patagonia is all about nature and, and sustainability, and taking responsibility of, of what we do. And so that would be a brand dream I would say. Okay. And what, Christopher, what gives you the most hope right now in the materials and climate space? Most hope I think when looking at the people, I touched upon this earlier, so when we, when I go to a, let's, let's assume if I go to a brand owner and I show this back and they can feel and touch it, the glow in the eyes of consumers and consumers are also brand owners, like they're people. What gives me hope is people, when they see our material, they love the material and they love the story. Right left field question, Christopher, if you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional as a champion for bioplastic, who would it be and why? Ooh. Good question. A champion. I'm the chairman of the board. So we as a company, as a young and innovative and, and rebellious company in some some ways, creating a little bit of fun. And so we are thinking of including a board member that is perhaps an artist in the that is also good in telling stories and inspire other people. So who would the artist be if I'm looking at the world, that's a good story. So we were thinking about Swedish artists, but now I can think a little Taylor Swift, let's say Taylor Swift. If she, I think she would be good storyteller and and a spokesperson for us. Nice. Yes. Yes. We're coming towards the end of the podcast now, Christopher, is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't touched on that you think it's important for people to think about? No, I think you touched upon the right stuff. The hope and what's, you know, what should we do and, what should we not do. I think the stories, the, the important stuff in, in our stories is there. Yes. I, I think we're done. Yeah, I think I think you, you did a very good job, Tom. Thank you. And you too. Great. Super. Christopher, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Yes. So we have most of our activities and please follow us. And the, the steps we're taking that would be in LinkedIn. So we have Lignin Industries. We have a LinkedIn page for all the, we have a webpage also lignin se, so Swedish web webpage. No, it's, it's in English, but, webpage, LinkedIn. I would say the, the main things, please follow me or the company. We try to post interesting stuff most of the time. So that, that would be my recommendation. Christopher, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thank you, Tom. Thanks for having me. Okay, we've come to the end of the show. Thanks everyone for listening. If you'd like to know more about the Climate Confident podcast, feel free to drop me an email to tomraftery at outlook. com or message me on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you like the show, please don't forget to click follow on it in your podcast application of choice to get new episodes as soon as they're published. Also, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. It really does help new people to find the show. Thanks. Catch you all next time.