Leadership & Quiet Quitting

Is quiet quitting happening with mission-driven organizations?  YES!  What is it?  Is it the same thing as employee disengagement?  What do we do when we see it happening?  And, how do we prevent it in the future?  Join us on Practice GOOD podcast as we dive deep into this concept of quiet quitting and its relation to social impact organizations.  Let's be take social impact inward.  It is no longer good enough to just have a compelling mission and vision of social impact.  Employees want to see that impact lived internally in the organizational culture.  So let's talk about it! 

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PG S3 E8 Quiet Quitting Practice GOOD podcast

Intro/Outro: [00:00:00] Welcome to Practice Good. The podcast that empowers change makers to give good and live good. Here is your host, Shiloh Karshima. Social entrepreneur, corporate trainer, and former pastor, join us as we explore the intersection of social impact and soul care.

Shiloh: Hey everybody. We are talking through some concepts in season three that really affect not only nonprofits, but also for profits. And the reason that we're adding these in here is because social impact is not only about what we do. Outside of the four walls of our company, it is not only about the clients and the partners and the intentional sourcing of materials and the fair trade [00:01:00] and the social impact externally, but it is also about how we treat those internally.

And I have found at many nonprofits, 501c3s we have a great vision. We attract people with a great mission, who desire to be a part of the good work we're doing, but ultimately we have a breakdown in our organizational culture, and I would love for us to get better at that so that the people that we attract, we can also retain.

So today we're gonna talk about a concept that I've heard. Floating around a little bit here and there, and I really wanna dig into a little bit and see if we agree on some of these terms or not. So let's get into it. We are talking today about quiet, quitting. Have you heard this term?

Quiet quitting. It's a new kind of term that's been floating around the past couple years, and the overall kind of intention behind it is that it's the problem of the employee. It's the employee slacking off only [00:02:00] doing minimally what they could being psychologically disconnected and really not engaging in some customary kind of.

What they call citizenship behaviors. Some things about just going above and beyond, having a passion for the company, doing more than the bare minimum, engaging with your coworkers and putting in more time if needed than is asked sometimes, and so I just wanted to talk about this phrase because as I'm processing it, I have a few questions.

I have a few concerns. The language here of quiet Quitting really focuses on the employee as. The point of wrongdoing. And would you agree with this? That's, I guess my question. When we are looking at creating a better world and we're seeing that really no one comes into a company or an organization or a nonprofit or a social enterprise or a for-profit or whatever it may be, government entity [00:03:00] wanting to quiet quit in the beginning.

It never is something people choose. It's something that happens over time. And if it happens over time, our question should be why is it happening? When is it happening, and what is the causation of this? Or is there any positive correlation between something else? So I just really wanna dig into this.

I was reading one definition of this from investopia.com and they said, Quiet. Quitting is doing the minimum requirements of one's job and putting in no more effort, time, or enthusiasm than absolutely necessary. And when you think about it, when you start a new job or you get hired somewhere, you always are.

Extra excited. Let's just talk about the enthusiasm piece right there, right? There's a psychological connection. You're coming in hopeful. You're wanting to either do the task well or be a part of a bigger purpose and vision. And it comes with [00:04:00] coming into a company with hope, right? And it ends up over time or not at all, coming to the point of quiet, quitting.

Not everyone quiet quits. So why do some and why not others? What does it come down to? And I think it comes down to a few things. Number one, our work environment becomes toxic. Maybe there's some psychological manipulation, maybe there's. Some oppression. Maybe there is a lack of equity or diversity and inclusion.

Maybe you feel like your voice isn't being heard. Maybe there's comments that are said under the table that you feel like you can't really address or say anything because you're at risk of losing your job when the work environment becomes toxic or there becomes gossip, or chattiness behind people's backs or work meetings become.

Endless or disrespectful. I think people start to disengage, right? Another way that we get here is when the [00:05:00] managers become micromanagers. When you come in really loving the vision and mission and the purpose behind the organization, and all of a sudden the people around you. Are not trusting you.

They're stepping on your toes. There's no autonomy. They don't trust you. Every time you get up from your computer, they're questioning your motives. There's no level of balance between remote or work life, in office, and it doesn't have to be a remote option, but the point here is that the moment you.

Are not sitting there staring, glued to your computer. They distrust you. And when that happens, no matter how much you are passionate about the work that you do, you slowly disengage because you realize that this mission will never be your own. You came in wanting to own it. You came in wanting to. Be a part of it.

You came in saying, this is what, this is the mission and vision I'm gonna take to my grave. I believe in this cause. Especially with nonprofit and social enterprise and [00:06:00] corporate social responsibility. But then slowly over time, as I've heard someone put it, it was a really, really good phrase.

She said, when you know how to make sausage, you're really not interested in sausage anymore. So outwardly it's yeah, we're making sausage, right? But inwardly, you're like, Ooh, I know what this looks like and I'm just trying to buy my time until I get out. Another way that we get to this point is when the company over promises and under delivers, right?

How many times have we been promised something or a new employee's been promised something? And through time that person waits and waits, and that opportunity doesn't come, that promotion doesn't come, that extra responsibility doesn't come. That raise doesn't come. That new department opening doesn't come, whatever it is.

And that person begins to realize, oh my goodness, this may not actually be where I will be long term. And I think that is the hinge when the door closes versus opens, right? When you're still engaged as an engaged employee, [00:07:00] the door is open, the light's big, the tunnel's full of light, but slowly the light gets smaller and you're starting to realize the hope is leaving and the moment the hope leaves, there's that disengagement, there's that quiet quitting, and this is a problem more, I would say, for the employer.

Now I know that's open for discussion and a lot of people would argue with me no. This is a problem. The employee's problem, they need to get their act together, all those things. But I really truly believe that all of these things don't happen. Quiet, quitting doesn't happen when you have great management.

Quiet, quitting doesn't happen when you have a great organizational culture. Quiet, quitting doesn't happen the day that you begin a new job. So it comes with something, right? Another way that it comes is when an employer begins to realize that either this is no longer a long [00:08:00] term position for me, or maybe they're stuck.

In the pay, right? Maybe you're overpaid or you're paid high, so you can't find another position to go to, and so you're let me just buy my time because I need this for my family. But you disengage because you really feel like first and foremost, the company and the leadership ahead of you has disengaged in your wellbeing.

And I think that's where the book stopped, right? That's where we stop and go, where does this start? Where does this start? When we no longer see the vision, because whatever inner workings that we've been a part of, we no longer can sign up for, whether it's ethical, whether it's moral, whether it's organizational culture, all of those things.

But I would argue that quiet quitting is not the responsibility of the employee. It is first caused by management and leadership, and I think we should rephrase, maybe rebrand, right? Instead of, call it quiet quitting, which kind of implies the focus and the [00:09:00] blame on the employee, let's call it leading.

By using, right? Using someone as a means to an end, or abandoning responsibility, right? As a leader, or positional leadership without care, influence. All of these things. Focus on the actual problem, and what I have found is that, The term quiet. Quitting doesn't offend me as a leader and doesn't anger me as a leader because I don't feel like I have that.

I don't feel like my employees quiet quit. And if I see someone disengaging or pulling out, I feel like it's my job to humble myself and go learn a little bit, ask what's going on, show a safe space, exemplify a safe enough space to where they can provide information and feedback to me so I can learn and I can grow, and I can create an environment that's engaging to them.

So this is not offensive to me, but what I'm wondering Is this [00:10:00] term quiet quitting, offensive only to leaders who are actually seeing it happen in their workforce and to leaders who are choosing to not engage in what is actually causing the problem. And when we choose, not to engage in that, we just engage in blame, right?

Gallup Poll says that 50% of the workforce in America is currently quiet, quitting. I think that was in 2022. That is huge. That is huge. What are we gonna do when half of the workforce is quiet quitting? What does that even mean? And I think we need to look at the correlation between these, this term quiet quitting, which is newer with an old term, which is disengaged employees or actively disengaged or still engaged, but or slightly unengaged.

There's so much on that spectrum, right? And when we look up statistics by Gallup as well, in 2022, they said 32% of the workforce is still [00:11:00] engaged, which, public service announcement like that is not great. Only 32% of the workforce is still engaged. That is like 68% is not engaged.

That is huge. And then we have 18% that's actively disengaged. This means that most of their work needs are unmet. And not only are they disengaged, but they're actively spreading their dissatisfaction around the workplace. Now that is. Pretty rough. And I actually have had some employees like that and I've had to communicate with them because there's some things I couldn't change in the organization, and I knew they weren't great, and I knew they were unhealthy, but I had to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is the way it can be.

I wish I could change this for you, but as of right now, this obstacle, this challenge, this people, this group of people, this whatever is going on that you're frustrated with is not changing. And I need you to make a choice for your happiness. Can you accept this workplace [00:12:00] and find joy here in the midst of that challenge still being here?

Or can I help you find a place that's gonna make you happy? If we think about the act of disengagement, that is actually a blessing because you can immediately know who to go to talk to. But when you have people sitting in positions that aren't really fully living out their potential, that's harder to kind of define and really to navigate.

Hey, you're, you don't seem engaged, you don't seem happy. You seem to be clocking out quite quickly. You're. Not really connecting with others on the team. Let's talk about this. That's a little bit harder to prescribe. But Gallup Poll says that there's several things related to this decline in engagement.

And number one is clarity of expectations. People are not, Really on the same page with their employers about the expectations of their position or their role. A lot of companies shift and move roles and overwork some people while underworking others, and the workload isn't balanced. [00:13:00] Some people have extra KPIs on their workload, and they're wait, why am I responsible for the majority of this?

But getting paid the same amount as everybody else. Another relation to the decline is there. There's a decline in opportunities and the ability to learn and grow. Anytime someone feels like, wow, I've kind of hit my peak here. I don't really know what's next for me. They begin to start to look for promotions elsewhere, and they hold their spot because they're wise people don't quit without another job.

Right? That's just smart. That's just microeconomics, and they hold their spot until they can find other opportunities and grow. Another reason for this decline is not feeling cared about. Right When the work environment becomes one where you realize that you I think I mentioned it before, you're just a means to an end.

People begin to know, they realize that and they disconnect. Another reason number four, a relation to [00:14:00] this decline is also a connection to the organization's mission and purpose. Now, I know we talk about social impact, so a lot of our mission and purpose is exactly what brings people to us, right?

But it's not what keeps people, but for some people it keeps them for a very long time, even in the midst of disorganization and chaos and a toxic work culture. But if we truly want to make a social impact, we have to do it more than just outside the walls of our building. Harvard Business Review pose this question, is quiet, quitting, worse than the real thing?

And I have a few thoughts on that. I wanna say no, and yes. I wanna say no and yes no, because the job gets done even though it's half-hearted. So at least you're. You have somebody who's relatively skilled, who understands the position and the role and the expectations, and does that the core tasks are getting done.

I would also say no because you have opportunities as leaders while they're there to recognize the disengagement and to be responsible. Take [00:15:00] organizational culture surveys and learn through creating safe spaces, asking how you can improve, trying to reengage by your own humility, right? And those are things you can do when people are still in those roles.

So I would prefer someone to quiet, quit, and I can jump in. And as an employer who is empathetic and caring and says, I wanna learn and grow, I can make some shifts to make sure that they feel loved, cared for, and appreciated that they reengage. And that's what I love to see. But if I were to say the opposite side and say, yes, quiet, quitting is worse than the real thing.

I would say that it's because, if you're not humble or if you don't create a safe space in that environment and there's so much risk, then you're also risking a mediocre business. If people feel like the risk to actually tell you the truth is too high for them, and they will be quiet instead.

Then absolutely [00:16:00] this is worse than really quitting because you are gonna continue to have people who are disengaged, who never tell you the truth and who are, whether they're actively disengaging or quietly disengaging, you're not gonna know which spreads. It spreads through toxic conversations, body language, and ultimately they'll leave.

And you'll never end up truly knowing why. And that's a disservice to you. So yes and no is my answer to that. I do think that if they end up leaving, if they end up quitting and you do have a process in place for exit interviews, there could be some beautiful information you receive from there.

But I'm a firm believer that all feedback is good feedback and so I wanna know that information. I'd love to know that before they leave, especially if they're good at what they do. And also onboarding people and hiring and reinvesting in that process is quite extensive. So I'd rather do it ahead of time before losing people.

But if I can't, any kind of feedback is good at any point. So [00:17:00] overall, I think the best way is whatever way gets you the most honest feedback as quick as possible. Harvard Business Review also says that being willing to go beyond the call of duty is a critical competitive advantage, and I think this kind of supports the idea that like quiet, quitting.

Takes away the competitive advantage of your company and you don't want that. And I get it. That's why we start companies with friends and people and volunteers that are passionate about the work we do. And the moment we get to a place to where people don't really own that and they're not really seeing it for themselves, we lose something.

We lose speed, we lose momentum, we lose funding, we lose all these things. So it is very important. But I guess my argument is that. As long as I'm a leader that takes responsibility, that says, I wanna know, I wanna hear, I want your feedback. I wanna learn quiet. Quitting isn't all that bad because you actually can rebrand it and say, you know what?

I don't have people [00:18:00] quiet quitting, but maybe I have. Taken a sidestep and I've abandoned responsibility for a season and I get to get right back on the horse and I get to own what is mine, and I get to shift some things in order to shift the environment for them and better care for them and their families.

 It's funny, there is like some word out on the street. Word on the street guys. Word on the street. I'm just kidding. That talks about another term called quiet firing. Have you guys heard of this? I think it's quite funny because initially when I heard of this I was like, Okay. This must be like when employees who quietly quit and then they all really quit.

At some point when they find other positions, never really fully tell why they left. So even in exit interviews, even when they leave, they all find other reasons to say, oh, I moved, I got a promotion. Oh, I need to work from home because of this. Oh, I have a family emergency. Whatever these may be, [00:19:00] I would've considered quiet firing, right?

Like you're quiet, firing your boss, I'm gonna quiet quit and I'm gonna quiet fire my boss. And that makes sense to me. Like you're doing this because you're protecting your recommendations, you're protecting your season, and you know that giving honest feedback is not. Safe is too risky, but that is actually not what quiet firing is.

And I think it's interesting because I think quiet firing can also be considered constructive discharge, which. People have done intentionally. Bosses have done intentionally, but I would also argue and say they've done it. Intent like, sorry, intentionally and unintentionally. There we go. Those are the words I'm looking for.

But when they refer to these terms, they refer to them as intentionally coming from an employer or manager who basically neglects. Intentionally caring for their employees. So they divest time, resources, opportunities. They [00:20:00] neglect feedback, they deny raises, and they do certain things to encourage those employees that have quietly quit to now leave right to be fired.

This is a article actually from bloomberg.com and they talk about how it's very intentional and. I have seen that. I've seen it happen intentionally, but I have also seen that quiet quitting first starts when employers are already doing these things. Unintentionally when they're not thinking about it.

In fact, I was just watching CNN today and there was a woman on there, man, I wish I would've got her name, but she was recorded by an employee on a Zoom call and basically someone said, how are we supposed to be engaged in our work if you're taking away our bonuses? And she basically went on and on very politely about how they need to respect one another and be kind and be hopeful and we'll get back on track.

And then she begins to yell at them and saying, we are behind and we need 26 million. Go out and get the [00:21:00] 26 million and stop living in your pity party. And it went viral, man. And I began to think You have already divested in your resources, your opportunity to raises for your people. And you're wondering why people are literally telling you on a meeting, we are about to quiet quit you.

Like we, this is unengaging to us. And it's funny cause CNN watched it and then they pulled it aside and they go, "We actually looked up her salaries. She makes $5 million." 5 million, 5 million. And she's taking away their raises and telling them to not have a pity party. And I just thought that's interesting.

That employees are now knowing that it's going viral and it's I think we set ourselves up for this as leaders. We wonder why people are quiet, quitting. We get mad at them, but it's like it's always something that we get to own as leaders. I'm a firm believer that everything, the buck stops at the leader.

Everything comes back to the leader, right? People are gonna get their own promotions, get their own pay increases, get a healthier work organizational [00:22:00] culture if you're not gonna do it for them there. In fact, I know people who've literally gone to their teams and said, this year I'm getting my own promotion and I'm getting my own raise, whether it's here or somewhere else, and that lasted a whole year and that team did nothing.

And the person went out and find their own raise and found their own promotion. And it's like that was the kindest thing that person could have done to say that out loud. And even though we're talking about quiet, quitting, and most people aren't doing that, I think this whole concept has been shifted and skewed to.

To look at the employee as the negative one, when in reality it's all on leadership, leadership, leadership. Does that make sense? The LA Times put out an article that was talking about Ariana Huffington, a Chief Executor executive of Thrive Global, saying in a LinkedIn essay that quiet quitting isn't just about quitting on a job.

It's a step towards quitting at life. And I just can't help to laugh about this because I [00:23:00]completely disagree. I feel like. This is a comment made by an executive who's in a place where they've experienced quiet quitting in their company, and they refuse to look themselves in the mirror. The reality is that a lot of people I've seen quiet, quitting are quiet, quitting because they're buying time before they can find a place that they really believe in.

For their next step. There's a funny TikTok video, I can't even remember the name of it, I wish I had remembered, but there's a girl that basically does this kind of little sketch on what it looks like for millennials or Gen Z to Quiet Quit and someone gives her like a stack of papers and she goes, oh, don't you know it's 2022.

Like we, where we act our wage. And I just can't help to laugh because I'm like, where we act, our wage, like what a funny play on words. But also the reality is, even in this message, we really need to understand that like where we act, our wage is pointing to the problem. Are people underpaid and being asked to perform more than the work that they're given.

So I [00:24:00] really think it's about refocusing our attention. And being less complaining about the workers and more responsible about our leadership. I was reading an article in the South Morning China Post that talked about this phrase that is similar, and they're paralleling this to the idea of quiet quitting called lying flat.

And lying flat is basically where employees are basically saying, there are many things that are just not worth my attention or my energy. And it reminds me of years ago, I was just starting out in my career and I was overworking at a nonprofit. I was working more hours than I was getting paid. And I went into my therapy session and my therapists were like, why are you working till eight o'clock?

And I'm like I have to get the work done. And she's like, does your employer pay you overtime? And I'm like, oh no. They let me know at the beginning of working there that they do not pay overtime. And she said, but. If they don't pay you overtime, that means they don't care about the activities you're doing over the [00:25:00] time.

And all of a sudden it was like a light clicked for me. I was like, why do I care more than my boss cares about this getting done? If they really care, they would pay me to get it done. The extra hours. I'm working all the day through like a crazy mad woman and I'm staying in extra three hours with no pay every single day.

That is like silly. That's craziness. Why am I. Why am I paying for the work that they don't care about? If they care about it, they'll pay for it. And it was like this light bulb went off, and I think that's what's happening in our world. I do think we're becoming more psychologically like aware and we're also realizing manipulation and coercion, and we're also realizing where we're being used.

I am not advocating for employees just to chill out. But what I am saying is when we create a work environment that puts our employees first, where they're not a means to an end, where they know they're cared about, cared for, where they're getting raises in timely manner, and they're getting feedback that is helpful [00:26:00] and worthy of their time, where they're feeling called and passionate about the purpose and the mission of the work that they're doing.

I think quiet, quitting wouldn't be a thing. Granted, we're gonna have some kids coming up that are entitled, I get it right? But the reality is we have a lot of responsibility we can take in this. And overall, the trend can shift if we as leaders first choose to shift ourselves. And I think overall, my message behind this is simply this.

If we are wanting to create social impact, If we're wanting to make a difference in the world, we cannot start externally. We have to start internally, and the only way that this term quiet quitting will be offensive is if we're choosing to not look ourselves in the mirror as leaders. 

Intro/Outro: Thank you for tuning in.

We hope this episode has given you some valuable insights and inspiration for your social impact journey. If you enjoyed the show, let us know, follow and leave a review, [00:27:00] and don't forget to share the fun with your friends and followers. Now go out there and create some positive change!