Ohio Yearly Meeting's Podcast

Conservative Friends Bible Study of The Gospel of John #5

• Henry Jason

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John 1:35-42

What if understanding ancient texts could transform your perspective on modern life? Join us in our enlightening exploration of John 1:35-42, as we unpack the layers behind the initial calling of Jesus' disciples. This episode promises to enrich your understanding of biblical narratives by highlighting the cultural and historical significance of phrases like "Here is the Lamb of God." We'll also dissect the meaning behind seemingly trivial details, such as the mention of "four o'clock in the afternoon," which reveals the Gospel's extraordinary attention to detail. Through this thoughtful examination, we contemplate how translations like "Rabbi" to "teacher" and "master" in the King James Version reflect the evolving linguistic and cultural landscapes over centuries.

Journey with us through the fascinating evolution of language, as we draw parallels between biblical translations and Shakespearean English. By clarifying the nuances of terms like "Christos" and "Messiah," we debunk common misconceptions about titles and surnames, shedding light on their historical resonance. Delve into the geographical and titular identities of Jesus, where His designation as "Son of God" and "Son of Man" offers profound insights into His unique identity. Our conversation extends to reflect upon how early faith communities viewed Jesus, and how such interpretations were shaped by the times in which they lived. This episode will encourage you to reconsider how language and history influence our grasp of biblical texts and Jesus's unparalleled journey.

The advice in our introduction is from page 32 of the Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline.

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Chip Thomas:

Advice number 16. Be diligent in the reading of the Bible and other spiritually helpful writings. Gather daily in your families for worship. Such times have a special value in bringing little children, especially into the experience of United Worship and so preparing them for the larger meeting for worship, as they learn in the silence to bow to the power of God. From Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline .

Henry Jason:

Okay, this is the OYM greek bible study. We are reading the gospel according to john John, and this is session number five, and we left off at verse 34 in chapter one. My first question is there any questions about what we've done? I will say that that prologue the first 18 verses. Many of the concepts that are expressed there will come up throughout the whole work, so that should be something that we'll learn much more about. But are there any comments or questions as to what we've already read? Okay, begin and read section 35 through 42,. I'm reading the new, revised standard version.

Henry Jason:

The next day, john again was standing with two of his disciples that's john the baptist and as he watched jesus walk by, he exclaimed look, here is the Lamb of God. The two disciples heard him say this and they followed Jesus. When Jesus turned and saw them following, he said to them what are you looking for? They said to him Rabbi, which translated means teacher, where are you staying? He said to them Come and see. They came and saw where he was staying and they remained with him. That day it was about four o'clock in the afternoon. One of the two who heard john speak and followed him was andrew, simon peter's brother. He first found his brother, simon, and said to him we have found the Messiah, which is translated anointed. He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said you are Simon, son of John, you are to be called Cephas, which is translated Peter.

Henry Jason:

There's a lot said here that assumes much more having been said or done at that time. We only have little short snippets of what must have happened, and this is the beginning of the first calling of the disciples of Jesus to come follow him. I'm just thinking when Joanna is saying look, here is the Lamb of God, this must be in some context that is not given us here. Perhaps the people who first heard this gospel being read to them understood or knew what the context was so they could say oh yeah, we know about that, but but for us it's kind of a murky understanding of what went on.

Henry Jason:

It's very interesting if you look at verse 38, where the two disciples are calling jesus rabbi and then it says, which is translated to mean teacher, a.

Henry Jason:

A rabbi is the Hebrew and the Greek and the Aramaic word for teacher, and this gospel, as it's written, was written in Greek and what is being said here implies that some of the people for whom this gospel was written, who would be hearing it or reading it, did not know Aramaic or Hebrew, so they're translating this word rabbi rabbi and saying it means teacher in Greek, which it does, and then in verse 39, it says they came and saw where he was staying and they remained with him that day.

Henry Jason:

It was about four o'clock in the afternoon. Comments like this are very interesting because when we're getting down to such precise times like four o'clock in the afternoon, what we have here is an understanding that the source of material for this gospel involved people or someone who actually knew what was happening at that time at a very given hour. It wasn't just hearsay that there was someone actually there, and you'll find that throughout this gospel, these very specific times or places. I'll try to point out some more of them as we go along, but just to add that it's four o'clock wow. That just really gives it a much more specific memory of when this happened.

Partipicant 1:

I wanted to ask you, henry, you mentioned, you know that, rabbi, which is interpreted as teacher, which I totally agree, but in the 1611 King James Version they use the word master and in the context of Old English or that time frame, was master still looked at equivalent to teacher in the context of Old English?

Henry Jason:

Well, if you speak British English, english, you know that master is also teacher. We still use this term headmaster. The head of a school is a headmaster, the head teacher. So yes, that's the sense that's meant there in the king james version, I think. In american english we don't ordinarily ever think of a teacher as master. No, no, but uh, yeah, this is an older usage. Actually, master, this particular master goes back to a Latin word. The English word master comes from a Latin word, magister, which means teacher but that sort of raises another point, henry.

Partipicant 1:

I think I'm glad you touched on, because not only when we start reading older editions or translations, we have to consider the culture as well as the time period that it was written in, what the words meant.

Henry Jason:

Absolutely. What is so important is to remember that all languages change over time. Meanings change, sometimes the words, meanings will change, sometimes certain meanings will get lost and at other times new meanings will be added. And you just have to keep that in the back of your head and sort of let your inner linguist remind you of that, sort of let your inner linguist remind you of that, because so many misinterpretations can occur because you're not aware of that kind of situation, as always happening. We can still read Shakespeare English. It's somewhat difficult, but we cannot read Old English Anglo-Saxon because it's changed so much you can't read Beowulf in the original old English language. You'll see a few words that look familiar, but most of the words will look very strange and unfamiliar. So that's important to remember. Thanks, george.

Particpcant 2:

Henry.

Henry Jason:

Yes.

Particpcant 2:

I want to like to go back to the fourth hour in the afternoon. The Greek doesn't say fourth, it says dekate. What verse is that?

Particpcant 2:

39.

Henry Jason:

39, the 10th hour. Yeah, if you think of 6 am as halfway through the day, you remember a Jewish day begins in the evening, like six previous evening, and it will end the following evening at six. So if you think of six in the morning plus six plus four, that gives you the 10th hour. Do you follow me, thomas?

Particpcant 2:

Yes, I do, but it doesn't get into the afternoon. Six plus four would be 10 o'clock in the morning.

Henry Jason:

No, six plus six would be 12, plus four would equal 10 hours later.

Particpcant 2:

Okay.

Henry Jason:

Think of 6 am as zero and if you add 10 hours after 6 am.

Particpcant 2:

That's four o'clock. Okay, yeah, you're right.

Participant 3:

Henry, I have an odd footnote In my Bible. It says under verse 39, in accordance with oriental hospitality, the guests would be invited to remain that night also. Hmm, this is the Amplified Bible.

Henry Jason:

Yeah, as he says that I'm remembering that's true. They would be invited to. The thing was, capernaum is where Jesus' headquarters were. Basically that's where he was living, on the western shore of the Sea of Galilee, lake Tiberias, and it doesn't say anything about the quarters there where he was living or what sort of situation it was. We just don't know. I don't think it says anywhere in any of the gospel accounts or any other Christian accounts. That may be correct, but we just don't know here what's happening. But in terms of what gets said later on, and even here, where John calls Jesus the Lamb of God, what's being said before and after, we don't know. But I believe that the people who were hearing this gospel read to them probably knew the story, or many of them would have known what was being implied. You know why this was said and what was happening.

Participant 3:

They would probably know that just from you know, orally, being told it, but for of God was included in the idea of the Messiah.

Henry Jason:

What I can say is no, I'm thinking son of God is the term. Well, you find that in the book of Daniel and that's kind of a mysterious figure there, and that there are times when you know, even Adam was called a son of God. I can't say that I know of any connection.

Participant 3:

It may be, they're just not well, in 41, the term messiah, messiahs, appears for the first time in this section, and the only other words used to describe jesus are the lamb of god and the son of god. So I thought, well, one of those must have led these disciples to use that term, so that these terms might have been included in that understanding of who the Messiah was point that will come up later on.

Henry Jason:

This document is like a teaching document at times and it's even somewhat anachronistic if you assume that this gospel was written some 60 years after the death and resurrection of jesus. It's a teaching document and so they're putting in these terms that they later understood of jesus and it may seem somewhat anachronistic or whatever at the point. So I'm just bringing that up as a possibility, but I don't know here. I mean, we don't have enough information. That's what I'm saying. We can make maybe very good hypothetical guesses or whatever, but I don't know where else you can go with that. And again, even with that verse he just brought up in 41, we have found the Messiah, which is translated anointed. I think last week I brought this up. What we have here is a Hebrew word. It gets transliterated into English as Messiah or Messiahs, and the translation of this into Greek is Christos, which in Greek means anointed. So we got the Hebrew Messiah, which transliterated into English is either Messiah or Messiahs, but it's translated. The meaning of the Hebrew is translated into Greek as Christos, which in English just means anointed one, and anointed is the one anointed, understood with the Holy Spirit of God. So it's clear that part of the congregation for whom this was written were not Hebrew or Aramaic speaking Jews. They only knew Greek, so that the author is translating some of these words into Greek so they can understand what the meaning of mashiach or messiah is. Again, that's why we have christos, and christos is where we get our english word, christ.

Henry Jason:

Now I want to bring up a point. So often you get this expression jesus, christ. Christ is not a surname, it's not a family name, it's a title and, as I've mentioned before, in Greek, in ancient Greek, there was no punctuation. In modern English, we would put a comma after Jesus. We would be writing a Jesus comma, christ, like Jesus, prince of Wales, or something like that. It's unfortunate that so many people think that it's just a name. But it's not a name, it's a title that's being given to Jesus, lord, jesus Christ, and of course you also see it Christ Jesus, which just means the anointed Jesus.

Henry Jason:

I'm bringing up this other famous early Christian, justin Martyr. He's called Justin Martyr. His last name was not Martyr, he just had the name Justin, but you'll often see him referred to as Justin Martyr. Again, there should be a comma there. He was one of the first known martyrs, important martyrs in Christianity, in early Christianity. And again, there should be a comma there, but there isn't. In ancient Greek there's no punctuation whatsoever. It's just a point to remember. Unfortunately, in a language like Spanish, you'll see the two words put together like that. That should never have happened, because it's missing the understanding that the word christ or christos is a title. Okay, okay, he brought simon.

Participant 3:

Oh sorry, go ahead forgive me to seem ignorant, but what exactly does it mean to be anointed?

Henry Jason:

oh okay, anointed meant to really to rub or pour something onto someone, like olive oil oil, and among the ancient Hebrews there was this right of anointing kings and prophets with oil. This is when they actually became king or whatever. I think I may have mentioned last week here or somewhere that when the queen of england right now queen elizabeth became queen in 1952, they televised the whole ceremony, but they did not televise the most important or the most sacred part, and that's when she got actually anointed by having oil poured on her, because that was at the point when she became queen. They did not televise that particular portion of the whole ceremony. It's, it's a right, and usually when they say oil, they mean olive oil, which was used for a variety of purposes in Israel 2,000 years ago. Is that helpful?

Participant 3:

Yeah, thank you.

Henry Jason:

Okay, anyone else? Okay, one more thing here. In verse 42, it says Jesus said you are Simon, son of John. You are to be called Cephas, which is translated Peter. Okay, so Jesus is giving him a nickname.

Henry Jason:

Cephas goes back to the Hebrew or Aramaic Gepha, I'm not sure how it's spelled, let's save that for now. And the meaning of that word is rock, but this is not the sense of a rock, like just a stone. This is like the size of a cliff, like the rock of gibraltar. We're talking a solid cliff or something. Okay, he's calling him rocky, he's a tough guy.

Henry Jason:

Because there are people here who don't know Aramaic or Hebrew, it gets translated into Greek and the Greek word for this rock is petra, and to put it into a masculine form, the ending is slightly changed to petros. So Cephas is the transliteration of the Hebrew and Aramaic Kepha, which means a rock, a big rock, solid, cliff kind of thing, which is the Greek translation of that word, for rock is Petra. But because this guy, peter, is a male, a man, the ending gets changed slightly to an OS instead of the A, which would be a feminine form, like if it would be for a woman. Okay, is that clear? So, several times on the section we've just read. It's obvious that some of the audience here are not native-speaking Aramaic or Hebrew speakers, and so their native language is Greek. They may or may not have been Jews, but they didn't speak Hebrew or Aramaic. Okay, let's continue with 43, to the end of the chapter sure, back in 38 they where are you staying?

Particpcant 2:

And he says to them come and see. Is there any particular depth to that?

Henry Jason:

Okay, let me just see. Okay, he said to them come and you will see. They went, therefore, and saw where he is dwelling, remaining, staying, and they remained with him that day. Oh, again, getting back to something said earlier, that day, you know can include the night, because for Jews the day began in the evening. I don't see anything extraordinary there.

Participant 3:

Doesn't that appear in Revelation 2, that sentence come and seek.

Henry Jason:

In Revelation 2?.

Participant 3:

Yeah, no, not in the second chapter, but somewhere in Revelation. I read into it a spiritual meaning that he's asked where he dwells. It suggests an outward dwelling, but it could also mean what is within him, what is within him.

Henry Jason:

That's an interesting point that he brings up, because the word is mino, which means remain, stay, dwell. It occurs over and over again throughout the epistles I don't remember how many times, but it's one of the very frequent verbs, and there it often talks about the spirit dwelling within us.

Participant 3:

So might be an illusion there. Yes, it's possible, I mean it's. It's kind of it doesn't seem like there's much reason for having him say those words if they didn't have more weight than just, you know, sort of a normal understanding of them yeah, I mean, that verb obviously is a very important verb to express the indwelling of the holy spirit in a true believer.

Henry Jason:

So yeah, I think there are other words like that too, if I can, as as we read on I might remember some of them. So okay, the next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him follow me Now. Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him we have found him. About whom? Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote Jesus, son of Joseph, from Nazareth. Nathanael said to him Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Philip said to him Come and see. When Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him, he said of him here is truly an Israelite in whom there is no deceit. Nathanael asked him where did you get to know me? Jesus answered I saw you under the fig tree before Philip called you. Nathanael replied Rabbi, okay, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Henry Jason:

Okay, first thing I'd like to say about the name Philip. Philip in verse 43. You have 12 apostles. Philip is the only apostle whose name given is in Greek and me. All the others have aramaic, hebrew names, philipos, and that really means lover of horses. Literally, phil is love and hippos is a horse. This will come up much later in the gospel when we get to a passage where you have these two Greeks who want to see Jesus, and of all the people they go to, first it's Philip. Again, philip perhaps was the only one who could speak Greek among the apostles, so I'm just commenting on that now. Again, that comes from two words in greek philosophy and hippos. Philos means love, beloved, and hippos is a horse. We have hippopotamus. You know the word hippopotamus, hippopotamus Hippo is the horse and potamus is river. A hippopotamus is a horse of the river. Okay, verse 45.

Henry Jason:

Jesus, son of Joseph, from Nazareth, inareth, in 46, nathaniel said to him can anything good come out of nazareth? Now, that might seem strange to us today, but nazareth was just a tiny town, probably just a few houses there, a small village. And to say that something important can come out of a little, out-of-the-way village, you know, might have seemed strange to people and that's why you have this comment here can anything good come out of Nazareth? At this time, people did not have surnames, they did not have family names.

Henry Jason:

You were often addressed if there were several people, like we have several people here today whose name is Thomas and you might be addressed as Thomas, son of John, thomas, son of Paul, thomas, son of William, that sort of thing, and this is how they would distinguish people with the same name. The other way of distinguishing someone with a specific name that might be more in the group would be that it's thomas from baltimore compared to thomas from new york, compared to thomas from washington, and so that's why we have these kind of distinctive features mentioned like that, and even many of our names in English, the family names you have now, like Johnson there's, you know, son of John Paulson, son of Paul Newton, n-e-w-t-o-n. That T-O-N was originally town, so someone from New Town, the town called New, new town, newton. That's how we got many of our surnames, our family names henry, uh-huh.

Particpcant 2:

it seems that it suggests that where you're from mattered much more back then than now. I mean, now it's no big deal, henry from Boston say yeah, but back then Henry from Boston had more meaning and more significance in people's understanding of who you were.

Henry Jason:

I think he's got a point there Because people weren't traveling and they weren't moving very much that if you were from a specific town or area, perhaps a lot was known about the people from that town and you'd be understood to be just an exemplar or an example of someone from that town and there would already be a lot of presuppositions as to what kind of person you are. And to say you're from Nazareth, well, it just meant you know, you weren't someone who's going to be very famous or anything like that. But that's why they are making that point here. I think we move around so much today in America that where you're from originally doesn't really matter much.

Particpcant 2:

And also it doesn't impact who you are and your sense of who you are and your experiences that determine who you are, the way it used to.

Henry Jason:

Yeah, if you belong to a specific tribe, the 12 tribes of Israel, that had a lot of meaning as to which tribe you belong to. You know if you're a Levite, if you're a priest, you're going to come from a certain tribe, and things like that. So it did have much more meaning at that time. Okay, and then we get to Nathaniel. Nathaniel seems very surprised that Jesus seems to know something about him already, although they've never met. That's the impression you get immediately. And you know that Jesus knew that he was under this fig tree before Philip called him. It's kind of like ESP sort of thing. He knew already where he was. In verse 49, nathaniel replied. He said Rabbi, you are the son of God, you are the king of Israel, what I said earlier about calling Jesus lamb of God, and what was the other verse I forget what the other one was, but this is maybe a little bit of hindsight or putting into the past something that was obvious to everyone later, because it would be very unusual for anyone to call someone a king of Israel.

Henry Jason:

I go into verse 50. Do you believe? Because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree? Nathaniel doesn't even know Jesus yet. This is his first meeting with him, but how this is worded. It sounds like he already has faith in Jesus. This is coming from the future, looking back into the past. And do you believe? Of course, do you have trust, do you put your confidence in me? Because I told you that I saw you under the fig tree.

Henry Jason:

And then Jesus says you will see greater things than these, greater than this remote viewing, esp kind of thing, extrasensory perception. And he said to him very truly I tell you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the son of man. You see heaven opened. Of course, whenever the heavens open, you're having a revelation. God is revealing something. That's what that religious terminology means heaven's opening, sky's opening. You're getting a revelation and in that revelation you will see heaven open and the angels of god ascending and descending upon the son of man, ascending and descending. If you remember what I said last week about the word angelos, the basic meaning of that word is messenger, because angelia is a message, news. So you will see heaven open, you will be seeing revelations and you will be seeing angels of god ascending and descending, coming down into jesus. These messages from god, these angels, these messengers, these messages from god, these revelations from god will be coming down to him, upon the son of man. And of course jesus quite frequently called himself son of man.

Partipicant 1:

And of course Jesus quite frequently called himself son of man Henry. This might be a time to sort of bring up a question. When I read the scriptures, realizing they were written decades after the events took place, then at times, I think as we read the scriptures, we're also reading the author's present understanding and interpretation and how the church or the early faith community saw Jesus and as it developed following the years of his ministry. And I wonder you'll see places where others are referring to Jesus as the son of God, but often he refers to himself, as I recall, as the son of man. So I wonder if there's something we're seeing, sort of a situation, where we're seeing both maybe present words that are historically correct of what took place and also projected interpretation within the scriptures that we're reading.

Henry Jason:

Now you've got to remember that this word is the name given to the first man, adam, or in Hebrew, adam. Adam means in Hebrew man or mankind. That first man was called man. That first man was called man. We just transliterate the Hebrew and give the exact letters A-D-A-M, or apostrophe A-D-M, adam, but that's all that's being said here. Son of Adam. Jesus is a son of Adam, he's a descendant of Adam. Okay, and Jesus often uses this as a euphemism. It's another way of saying I or me or Jesus, but he's just saying I am a son of Adam, I am a son of man, a son of mankind. I know in Russian, when you translate this son of man, it comes out Sin is son and is an adjective which means human.

Partipicant 1:

Chilewieczki, syn is son and Chilewieczki is an adjective which means human, the human son or the son of man of mankind, then I guess what I'm thinking is Jesus really claiming just to be human here rather than the others? When you say son of God, maybe given divine attributes to him, I mean, is he given himself a human attribute here where the others are referring to a divine attribute in the way the words are?

Henry Jason:

used. I think just the way he often uses it, because no other writer will talk about Jesus as son of man. It's sort of just the term he himself used for himself. Most frequently, of course, it just refers to his humanity.

Participant 3:

Could it refer to some condition that comes after man? I was also thinking he's called the second Adam.

Henry Jason:

Yes, yes, oh see, paul constantly talks about that and sometimes it's important in some translations to trying to think of one right now where it might still translate man in the English, but it might be a little clearer to translate it as Adam. I'm sorry I can't think of one now, but in the letters of Paul the two are equivalent and writing in modern Hebrew still means man and kind in modern Hebrew. And I think someone said maybe Jack was saying it's also the same word in Arabic too. So we miss that when we actually use it as a different word. We say man rather than Adam. We kind of think of Adam as having this name, this personal name of Adam, when actually he was just called man or mankind. It means both.

Particpcant 2:

George Fox used to like to contrast the first Adam and the second Adam, and Fox would come out with the first Adam that fell but the second Adam that never fell.

Henry Jason:

Right, right, yeah, and that's an important point. Actually, that's a very important point. But it's this Adam, this man again. Maybe it's referring to the fact that he is the human part of Jesus that's being referred to like we are human Because he was human and we are human, we can imitate him, become more and more like him, grow up into the stature and fullness of him, because he was human. This is a second Adam.

Henry Jason:

We'll get to this passage in chapter 3 about Nicodemus and the need to be born again or born from above. This is saying something very similar there when we get to chapter 3. Okay, when you're reading the New Testament and you see this word man, mankind keep in the back of your head the word Adam. Or when you get Adam, keep in the back of your head the word man or mankind. It will help give you a better understanding of the passage, perhaps. Okay, any questions? Okay, let's go on to the next session. We don't have much time, but I think I'll just read it and we're going on to the wedding at cana through verse 11 on the third day, there was a wedding in cana of galilee, and the mother of jesus was there. Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine gave out, the mother of j Jesus said to him they have no wine. And Jesus said to her Woman what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come. His mother said to the servants Do whatever he tells you. Now standing, there were six stone water jars for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding 20 or 30 gallons. Jesus said to them fill the jars with water. And they filled them up to the brim. He said to them now draw some out and take it to the chief steward. So they took it. When the steward tasted the water that had become wine and did not know where it came from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew, the steward called the bridegroom and said to him everyone serves the good wine first and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk, but you have kept the good wine until now. Jesus did this, the first of his signs in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory of his signs in Cana of Galilee. And revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him. There are three places in Israel and in Lebanon that say they are the original Cana. There are two places named Cana. One of them is across the border now in what's Lebanon, so someplace in that area, and the mother of Jesus was there. That's significant. Already, that might be saying something that she's left Nazareth and gone to this wedding. This is probably the wedding of some relative of Jesus, maybe a cousin or someone, and Jesus got invited along with his disciples, and we're doing a new section here.

Henry Jason:

So let's talk about the word disciple. I've already mentioned that rabbi is the Hebrew and the Aramaic and it basically means teacher. The Greek word is didaskalos, which means teacher. The word disciple here is the Greek word, which means student or pupil, and it gets translated as disciple. But it's much clearer to understand that this word disciple really means student, because Jesus is the teacher, he's the rabbi and his followers are mathetes. This is the singular form. They are his students. We should see them as students of Jesus, just as we ourselves should be students of Jesus. He is the great teacher.

Henry Jason:

Okay, this is the same root found in the word manthano in Greek, which means learn. So you see a relationship here. Jesus is rabbi, he's teacher, his followers, his disciples, are students. This word mathetes here meaning student, pupil, it still has that meaning in modern Greek pronounced differently mafitis, but it is the same word and it has the same meaning. And I know when they translate it into a language like Russian, they use the word ученик, and ученик means a student or a pupil, a young student. So we get our word discipulus from a Latin word, and I'm just showing the relationships here so you can get a different understanding of what's being said here. In the original, discipolis is a Latin word which means student, pupil, and that's where we get our English word disciple. We get our English word disciple as Jesus has come to teach us himself. If you think of this good Quaker phrase, if we are students, he is teacher. Okay, I think that's about all I want to say. Any comments on that?

Partipicant 1:

I've had a question I wanted to ask you. This is a science and engineer in me, but in verse six, what was the volume of the pot, the water pots, the stone? That was mentioned in your translation, henry I?

Partipicant 1:

think it said 20 to 30 gallons okay well, yeah, because I know in the king james version it said two or three firkins, if I pronounce that correctly. But a firkin today, think, is 40.9 liters and in biblical times it would be around 9 to 10 gallons. So the King James, you know, which uses firkins, that is still. It's just exactly consistent with your translation. But anyway, I just like to get to grasp some of the units, units and things.

Henry Jason:

But thank you, henry I've never learned all those terms for measurements and hebrew whatever. I can't remember them. I'm sure I'd never remember them even if I tried hard, but I have seen pictures of what these ancient clay water jars look like pretty humble, looking urn, like things well, fairly big. So so, anyway, that this is the point I just wanted to make here, though, regarding the seeing jesus as teacher and followers as students, when you're saying disciple and master or teacher. That was a very important point, and it can be kind of lost in english by using fancy words like disciple, because we don't use the word disciple in everyday English, but we do use the word pupil and student in everyday English, and that's closer to what's being said here. Okay, anything else, anything else.

Particpcant 2:

That shows where the Quakers early on had it closer than other Christians in that when they said the Lord Jesus has come to teach his people himself, they were seeing him as rabbi. Yes, and now and I mean for Christians of Fox's time, all of Christian leadership were the teachers, not Christ himself.

Henry Jason:

Yeah, unless you're a Jew. Today, even the word rabbi, you might think of that more. What word are they? Revi? Yeah, revi, we lost it in English. Again, if you were speaking Russian, you wouldn't. You'd still see that teacher and student relationship, and it's the young student, not like university student. That's the meaning of that word. We can say the quakers rediscovered a lot, a great amount, so, okay, anything else, all right. We'll finish for today, then, and we'll continue with the wedding next week and go on to chapter three perhaps. So all right, thanks everyone.

Partipicant 1:

Good night thank you, henry.

Chip Thomas:

Thank you henry this podcast has been a production of ohio yearly meeting. Henry jason was our host. Chip thomas did the editing as well as reading the introduction and credits. The quote in our introduction is from the Queries and Advices section of Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline. A link to that book can be found in the show notes to this episode. We welcome feedback on this or any of our podcast episodes. Contact us at our website, ohioyearlymeetingorg.