Conservative Friends Bible Study of The Gospel of John #6

#6 Gospel of John 2:12-3:19

Henry begins this session by a discussion of the Greek word, “semeion” in the Gospel of John which in the King James Version of the Gospel of John is translated as “miracle”. However, the word, “semeion” means in Greek means a “sign, or an indication by which something is known”.  Our word, semiotics comes from this Greek word.
 
John 2:12-25
  There are frequent usages in John’s Gospel of personal details, such as John’s mention that Jesus’ mother, brothers and disciples travelled with Him to Capernahum.
In John’s Gospel, there is mention of the cleansing of the Temple at the beginning of His ministry, indicating that the Temple, (and our bodies) must be pure. Other gospels put this event at the end of His ministry. Henry believes that the placement of incidents in Jesus’ ministry at different times in each of the Gospels occur because the writer of that Gospel wanted to make a particular point at that point of that event in Jesus’ ministry. A discussion also ensues about destroying ”this temple”, and that He would raise it again in three days.   

John 3:1-8
It is notable that Nicodemus, as a leader of the Jews, came to Jesus by night, perhaps because as a member of the Sanhedrin he wanted not to be seen by anyone as going to Jesus.
Nicodemus, by taking an outward, literal meaning to being “born again” misunderstands Jesus’ inward, spiritual meaning. This misunderstanding frequently happens in Jesus’ conversations with others that the inward (spiritual) is much more important than the outward (literal, physical).
Quakers frequently use the word, “regeneration” for the experience of being born again. Henry emphasizes that being spiritually born again is essential for us.

John 3:9-
Belief (Greek: pisteo) in John 3:16 is not just a token acceptance of Jesus, but a deep, inward, trusting, transformative, spiritual understanding of who Jesus is and can be in one’s life.
 
The advice in our introduction is from page 32 of the Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline.

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Transcript

Host 0:01

Advice number eighteen. Seek for your children that full development of God's gifts, which a true education can bring about. Remember that the service to which we are called needs healthy bodies, trained minds, high ideals, and an understanding of the laws and purposes of God. Give your best to the study of the Bible and the understanding of the Christian faith. Be open-minded, ready constantly to receive new light. From Ohio Yearly Meetings Book of Discipline.

Henry Jason 0:42

This is the OIM Greek Bible study. We are reading the gospel according to John. This is session number six. And we left off at chapter two, verse 12. I don't recall if I mentioned that it says in um verse 11, Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory. In the gospel, according to John, you never find the word miracle. The only word used is the word sign. It's a sign of something extraordinary, I think, is what's being said here. But I find it interesting that the word miracle is not used in this gospel.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

In the King James, it is.

Henry Jason 1:33

Ah, well, let me just take a quick look at the Greek, see if there are variations there.

SPEAKER_07 1:40

I'm seeing semion. I think we get semiotics from that.

Henry Jason 1:44

Semion. Yeah, semion. That's sign. I don't see any variations in words with different manuscripts.

SPEAKER_06 1:53

Is a sign like a word, like the word of God?

Henry Jason 1:57

Um no. Even though semiotics. Well, that's the English word. Let me just see what the dictionary has to say here.

SPEAKER_06 2:07

I was just wondering if these miracles were a word of God.

Henry Jason 2:11

No, no, that's not understood that way. My understanding of this word is more like a sign on a street. Semaeon, a sign or distinguishing mark whereby something is known. A sign, a token, an indication. It also means an event that is an indication or confirmation of intervention by transcendent powers. Ah, okay. So that's where the miracle comes in. Sign could also be something worked by Satan or his agents to mislead God's people. And it also has the meaning of portent, P-O-R-T-E-N-T, terrifying appearances in the heavens never before seen. And they give the example of portents of the last days.

SPEAKER_07 3:02

Somewhere I've heard the phrase signs and wonders. I don't know if that's contemporary or goes back always.

Henry Jason 3:11

I don't know. I can't say. You'd have to look it up.

SPEAKER_09 3:15

Or sign in this sense could be a portent of what is to come as far as the miracles that he does.

Henry Jason 3:24

Okay. And again, it says there, and he revealed his glory in verse 11. Glory basically has the meaning of splendor, brilliance. It also refers to the Shekinah, the manifested presence of God, which would seem to be what's meant here. The manifested presence of God in him. And that was revealed by this sign. And his disciples believed in him. Again, that word believe is pisteo, and it means to have trust, to put confidence in. So they had real confidence in what they were seeing and believing. So okay, with verse 12. After this, he went down to Capernaum with his mother, his brothers, and his disciples, and they remained there a few days. As I've said, Capernaum is a town on the west shore of the Sea of Galilee. And that appeared to be Jesus' headquarters, basically, where he stayed. But here his mother came, his brothers and his disciples, and they remained there a few days. Again, these very little notes about staying somewhere for a few days or something happening at four o'clock, all of these seem to show that the notes here that this gospel were composed from, someone who was maybe an eyewitness actually there and saw and remembered certain things like these little odds and ends that don't really mean much in themselves, but it really says something about the source that was used to write this gospel. Okay, let's go on. The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple he found people selling cattle, sheep, and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. Making a whip of cords, he drove all of them out of the temple, both the sheep and the cattle. He also poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. He told those who were selling the doves, Take these things out of here. Stop making my father's house a marketplace. His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for your house will consume me. The Jews then said to him, What sign can you show us for doing this? Jesus answered them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. The Jews then said, This temple has been under construction for forty six years, and will you raise it up in three days? But he was speaking of the temple of his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken. When he was in Jerusalem during the Passover festival, many believed in his name because they saw the signs that he was doing. But Jesus, on his part, would not entrust himself to them because he knew all people and needed no one to testify about anyone, for he himself knew what was in everyone. One very interesting thing about this passage about the cleansing of the temple is here in John, it's mentioned as happening basically at the very beginning of Jesus' public ministry. If we look at the other Gospels, and in one of the other three Gospels, it occurs at the very end of his ministry before he got arrested. Here it occurs at the beginning. Which really happened, we don't know, but probably it was happening at the very end, because that would have stirred up the temple police and the chief priests, because they themselves were involved in terms of being connected with the money sellers, and this would have been upsetting to them. But there are certain reasons why, maybe theological reasons, that John puts it here at the beginning of his gospel to indicate that the temple needs to be pure. And then also thinking of ourselves as temples of the Holy Spirit, we need to be pure, and Christ is the one, that spirit of Christ in us is the one to help clean out that temple. It's interesting because this is kind of what happens with a number of other episodes and incidents throughout the Gospels where they're not in the same order necessarily, but the writer wanted to make a point and so would put it in one way or word it in a certain way to make a point that he wanted to do in that particular gospel.

SPEAKER_11 8:13

I wonder if the officials of the temple got a cut of the business. And so his doing that sort of cut this money that was something that they wanted to protect.

Henry Jason 8:27

I think that's right. I'm trying to remember something either I read or I was told that somehow the priests were involved. You couldn't use uh, well, you needed money changes because you couldn't use Roman money in the uh temple. That was totally not kosher. You had to use money that was approved, Jewish coins that were approved and could be used in the temple. And I gather it was probably a fairly big business in terms of numbers.

SPEAKER_06 8:56

Would they have been even more upset about mentioning destroying the temple? That would seem even more upsetting to the authorities.

Henry Jason 9:05

How is that used? What's the verse that you're 19?

SPEAKER_06 9:09

I mean, he knew he knew he was talking about his body, but if the authorities heard him talking about destroying the temple, that would be a political.

Henry Jason 9:17

Okay, well, uh actually, uh that destroy is an imperative in the plural. You people, if you destroy this temple.

SPEAKER_06 9:27

Okay. Wasn't he accused though of um saying that he was going to destroy the temple elsewhere?

Henry Jason 9:37

He was accused of blasphemy. I'm trying to remember. Anyone have a thought on that?

SPEAKER_05 9:44

I think in Mark 13, uh there's something about the disciples saying, See these buildings.

SPEAKER_09 9:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 9:55

Okay, he says, Seest thou these great buildings, there shall not be left one stone upon another that shall not be thrown down.

Henry Jason 10:04

Yeah, but uh, he's not saying he's going to do that. He's making a prediction about what would be happening in the year 70 when the Romans came and took over the city of Jerusalem and destroyed the temple.

SPEAKER_08 10:19

Also in Matthew 26, verse 60, it reads, Many false witnesses came forward, they found none, but at last two false witnesses came forward and said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God and to build it in three days. And the high priest arose and said to him, Do you answer nothing? What is it these men testify against you?

Henry Jason 10:50

I mean, he's not saying, you know, I'm destroyed, I will destroy this temple, period.

SPEAKER_06 10:56

I'm able to he was accused of it.

SPEAKER_10 11:00

So in Mark chapter 14 and Matthew 27, Mark 15, those passing by were hurling abuse at him, wagging their heads and saying, Ha, you were going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. Yeah.

Henry Jason 11:18

I mean, it's kind of odd, you know, and build it in three days. Well, what's really being said there then? Why destroy it if you're going to put it up again and do it in three days rather than 46 years that it was already under construction? You know, there's a non-sacretor there somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

I have a question.

Henry Jason 11:37

Yeah, Johannes?

SPEAKER_03 11:39

I'm trying to picture Jesus, a loving Jesus, doing that action, throwing the money changes out of the temple.

Henry Jason 11:48

I've had some thoughts about that too, actually. And one thought to me has been that perhaps this never happened, that it is really an understanding more of the inward temple, of what the real temple should be like, and that it should really be cleaned for God. And likewise the temple of our bodies. So I think that's the focus. Whether it happened or not, I mean it sounds very much so like it happened, but there are other things that we'll probably get to where it's more questionable whether they occurred as they're written. I can understand that kind of question because I've had it in my own head, Bernice. Maybe David wanted to say something.

SPEAKER_07 12:36

Thank you. I was gonna make two comments. Now I have three. The third one comes from the question that just came up about uh how is this consistent with the loving Jesus that we've known? Uh when I was doing draft counseling, we came across a lot of anticipated challenges that people's draft boards might throw at them if they were basing their claim on Christian pacifism. And it was likely that somebody on a draft board might say, Well, didn't Jesus drive out the money changers violently? And if you look at who it was he was making a whip of cords, it's the animals. It doesn't say he was whipping the people. The other thing that I want to say about the money changers business, I think that the prohibition against paying with anything other than Jewish currency was idolatry. The fact that all the Roman coinage had the picture of the emperor who claimed to be a deity. So that would be part of the background. The other, which I think points to social justice dimensions, is that I believe that Jesus was really incensed that foreigners were being taken advantage of here. Local people might have had the right currency, but those who came to the temple from other countries and other cultures, they were at the mercy of the money changers. And we know if any of us have exchanged currency in an airport rather than the bank, you know, you're over a barrel in some situations. So I think that he was really offended by the exploitation here of people who wanted to worship and were having obstacles thrown in their way.

Henry Jason 14:16

I think that's very true. Yes. I I found the passage in Matthew that is at the end of his ministry, and that's in chapter 21, starting with verse 12. And it's interesting here. He said to them in verse 13, it is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers. Now that I look at that, I remember there's a church in St. Petersburg in Russia, which was a museum when I visited it way back in 1967 when I was studying Russian. Right at the very top of the entrance, there's a beautiful church actually inside. I mean, with all this, just an unbelievable church in architecture. It had the words in Russian, My house shall be called a house of prayer. This very verse here. I think it was called St. Paul's Church, I believe, on Nevsky Prospect in Leningrad. But it doesn't say much here in terms of the in Matthew. We just have about three or so lines there regarding the cleansing of the temple. So then Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who were selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. He said to them, It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers.

SPEAKER_08 15:39

Henry, were the animals being sold as you know, sin sacrifices? I know doves are used for very small sins.

Henry Jason 15:49

Sacrifice, yes. I mean, you know, if you were wealthy, you you bought a more expensive animal. Or if you really were poor, you know, maybe some grain or something. But uh, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

And another couple of points, I guess, is uh is though I've heard though, you know, a lot of the people, you know, we think to travel very differently today than in those times. And when people traveled in that period of history, quite often it was a long or difficult journey for them. So they said the salmon of the sacrifices was meant a genuine need for the people that had traveled. So, you know, I've heard some scholars say that, you know, that first animal sacrifice was very important. And then I've also heard someone raise the thumb up, and I don't know how correct that is from scholarship, but that Jesus was also offended by the sacrifice of animals because we see a transition as we go from the old to the new testament, you know, that eliminated the need for the shedding of uh the innocent blood of animals. So that was another thumb that was in Jewish custom, it meant a genuine genuine knee, and then others felt that he was also offended by the the uh sacrifice of the animals. But that's just that may be someone extrapolating a projection.

Henry Jason 17:07

Yeah, let me uh share a screen here. There is this Greek word, elos mos, which is uh a means, it basically means a sacrifice, but a certain kind of sacrifice, and I think it gets uh translated as what's the translation? Propitiation. Propitiation. But really what it means, if you want to really understand it, it's a means for having one's sins exculpated or or removed, and that's kind of important. If you see this word propitiation, think of it as a means, but we'll get to that at some point in the future. Okay, I don't know if there's anything else to say about this passage, but it is kind of it's been moved around depending on the gospel and and the meaning is that inwardly we should always look at the inward meaning rather than the outward. But did the outward actually happen? It would appear it did, but in what form? Well, we're not sure. And finally, in verse 23 and through 25, it says here, many believed in his name because they saw the signs that he was doing. Again, many put their trust, had confidence in his basic nature because they saw the signs, the miracles that he was doing, believing in the name.

SPEAKER_13 18:33

Um, my version, which I'm using just internet uh gateway NIV, says it could also be and believed or in him instead of name. And I'm I'm I don't know if this is a very tiny, tiny point, but in the Greek, is it say name or does it say him?

Henry Jason 18:53

It says a stooloma, which is into the name. Put your trust in the name of him. Okay, your trust in your the name of him, literally, in his name, in his essence, and his and who he was, who his basic nature. Yeah, that's what it says.

SPEAKER_13 19:12

Thank you.

Henry Jason 19:13

Okay, let's let's go on. We finish with two, perhaps. Go on to chapter three. This is an interesting section here. All right, let's just do the first part. Now there was a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. He came to Jesus by night and said to him, Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God. Jesus answered him, Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. Nicodemus said to him, How can anyone be born after having grown old? Can one enter a second time into the mother's womb and be born? Jesus answered, Very truly I tell you. No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the spirit is spirit. Okay, I will stop there for a moment. Getting back to the first verse, Nicodemus is a leader of the Jews. Again, ethnically, the ethnic people we call Jews. That word Eudios in Greek can also refer in John to specifically those Jews who were opposed to Jesus and Jesus' followers. But here it's ethnically. And he he came to Jesus by night, which is interesting that he perhaps didn't want others to know that he was doing that. You know, he was very high up in the Sanhedrin in the council, and he was just doing it on the side quietly. He calls him rabbi, and then we say, We know that you are a teacher who has come from God. Well, rabbi means teacher. So, teacher, we know that you are a teacher, but no one can do these signs that you do apart from the presence of God. God must be with you. Jesus answered him, Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. Okay, no one can see the kingdom of God. I've talked about the kingdom of God a lot, and that is that state of God, that domain of God, and it's the equivalent that you find throughout the rest of this gospel is life or eternal life, the life of the ages. And this is the only place that this particular verse, kingdom of God, occurs in this gospel. And it's someone, it's not Jesus using it, it's Nicodemus. And seeing the kingdom of God without being born from above, he says, and again, this word above, another, means has two meanings. It means from above and again. And I understand the Hebrew word has the same kind of double meaning. So both in the Greek and in the Hebrew, the original, or probably also Aramaic here, they have the same sense. We have something similar in English, you know, we could say do it again, or you could say something like start from the top from above, in that sense. So being born again, it has a double meaning. Being born again, which is how Nicodemus is taking it literally in its outward sense, second being born like a baby a second time, and Jesus is using it in a more inward sense from above, and that kind of double meaning and the misunderstanding by people take something Jesus, where Jesus is speaking inwardly, they will often take it outwardly, as Nicodemus is doing here, and then Jesus goes on further to explain very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. Now I've mentioned the word water and spirit, the three Greek words spirit, Nauma, water, come on, and there's also the third one, Elion, which means oil or olive oil. These are all words that refer to, can refer to the spirit, and the thing they all have in common is they flow, they move. So being born of water in the spirit. Now, also the water could refer to physical water in terms of a physical birth, but here we're talking about the spirit. So without being born of water and wind, or water and breath, because pneumatic in an outward sense means wind or breath. And hudo basically in an outward sense means water, and alion is oil or olive oil. All three have the sense of something that moves, that that flows, that isn't something that sits still. And I'm saying this right now because we'll just see in a couple of verses a play on words here. Okay, what is born of flesh is flesh, and what is born of spirit, of the spirit is spirit. Do not be astonished that I said to you, you must be born from above or born again. The wind blows where it chooses, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. Okay, here's that same word wind, pnoma. And in this particular verse here, we're getting a sense of both the outward and the inward. The wind goes where it wants to. You hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. The same time you have the inward sense, the spirit goes where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So you're getting both meanings at the same time in verse eight. And if we continue with the rest of eight, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit. Whoever has that second birth in them are born again, or to use the Quaker word regenerated, regeneration, the spirit in them comes and goes, they don't have any control over it. And this is kind of important when you think about ministry. Even someone who's an acknowledged minister, a recorded minister, doesn't mean he's going to have the spirit in him at all times. And if he's clear, he knows when he doesn't have it. He may be silent. That's very important to understand here. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit. You know, such is such a person. The spirit comes and goes when it wants to. Then Nicodemus said to him, How can these things be? How can these how can these things happen? Then Jesus is asking him, you know, are you a teacher and yet you do not understand these things? So what I'm saying is that verse 8 here is especially important, as well as what just preceded it, about the need to be regenerated, to be born again, go through a second birth, not just the physical birth. We have the first Adam, and then the second Adam is Jesus, the Son of Man, or we could translate that as the Son of Adam, which is what it means in Hebrew, because Adam means both man and mankind.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

This whole section is pointing to Christ's message not to take the letter of the law literally, that He has come to fulfill the law, and that the money changers don't cleanse, and sacrifices aren't external, they're internal, and that baptism by the Spirit is a regenerative process, not a literal process. And this is all of Christ's ministry from then on out.

Henry Jason 27:19

Welcome to the essence of the gospel according to John.

SPEAKER_06 27:25

It it also seems like it's grounded in Genesis with the water of the deep and God's the wind blowing over it and God's sweeping across the face of the waters and creation.

Henry Jason 27:37

Yeah, the breath of the Lord, the uh spirit of the Lord, the Hebrew. Let me just give you the Hebrew. I don't know that much Hebrew, but I should probably give me give you some of the Hebrew that I know. Let's see, here we go. Ruchodesh. Ruachodesh is the Holy Spirit, Ruach is spirit, and Hakodesh the Holy Spirit, and of course, that is the spirit hovering over the waters in chapter one of Genesis.

SPEAKER_11 28:14

Also, in the creation of Adam in the Genesis, there are two parts of this. The first part is God formed up Adam from the very dust or material of the earth. So that's the outward birth or the first birth. But then a little bit later it says that God breathes his life into Adam. And that's the spiritual breath. We have in the creation story of Adam the two phases, the outward first phase and the inward second phase, the spiritual.

Henry Jason 28:48

I don't remember the order of these, but also when God, you know, it said God created light, let there be light. But then also there's another passage there where God creates the lights in the heavens, the sun, the moon, the stars. Those are more physical, outward lights. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 29:10

I've also noticed in the three chapters that we've read, there's the first and second idea that runs through all three of them. In the first chapter, it's John is introduced first and told that he was not the light. And then it goes on to speak about that light of everyone that comes into the world. And then in the second, we have the water being made into wine and being told that the first wine wasn't as good as the second batch of wine.

SPEAKER_12 29:44

Right, right.

SPEAKER_05 29:45

And then in this chapter, we have a distinction made between being born of the flesh and born of the spirit. So there are this kind of duality set up in all three chapters, the second being preferred.

Henry Jason 30:03

Thank you for the uh thoughts on the wine, you know, the water changing into something more than wine. I didn't really think of that comparison there, but it definitely is there with regard to the other two as well, and the first and uh with John the Baptist in here. So interesting. Yeah, as I said, there's always this contrast between inward and outward in this gospel, and we'll come to other parts where people are just too outward, too literal, that is, the outward literalness in interpreting things. And Jesus is always trying to get them to understand something beyond the superficial, the physical, the outward, the exterior, and get to something much more interior, internal, spiritual, non-material. That's where the living God is. Although He, of course, created the outward world as well.

SPEAKER_06 31:02

Would we want to take the beginning of Genesis inwardly?

Henry Jason 31:06

Why?

SPEAKER_06 31:07

Because it's God's creation of the universe, almost seems like our experience of him. A formless void, a deep with wind of God, God sweeping over us, and then there being light.

Henry Jason 31:20

I'd be a bit hesitant because I think Jesus was someone who really made it much clearer about the focus should be on the inward rather than the outward, especially in a gospel like John, where you see this, that he's clarifying something that is there throughout the Old Testament, perhaps more in some writers, some prophets, and in Genesis than elsewhere, but it becomes much clearer. Jesus really is clarifying that focus. And then, of course, people like Paul go on in that same strain that he is following how Jesus thought, you know, we should think like Jesus thought. All right, let's finish this here. Um very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know and testify to what we have seen, yet you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? Again, you see the outward and the inward there. No one has ascended into heaven except the one who has descended from heaven, the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. I have a question to myself here in reading some of this passage. I don't know what maybe Jesus is quoted as saying, as well as what is a comment by the writer of the gospel. Sometimes I don't know where the quotation marks should be in some of these passages that we're reading right at the moment. It depends also on your Bible scholar. Again, in verse 15, whoever believes in him may have eternal life. Whoever puts their trust in him, have put their confidence in him, may have eternal life, may have right to enter into the kingdom of God, into that domain of God, that state, that divine state that we call the kingdom of God. And then again, the next verse is very important, verse 16 for God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish, but may have eternal life. Everyone who believes in him, everyone who puts their trust, have their ultimate confidence in him, may not perish, but may have eternal life. And this again may enter into the kingdom of God. And 17. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. Again, believe as put their total confidence in him, what they understand of Jesus, the divine.

SPEAKER_12 34:31

Yes, Henry. What's the Greek word for condemn or can um resonances or anything in terms of understanding?

Henry Jason 34:41

Yeah, that that word gets mistranslated at times. Hold on, I don't remember in this verse. Okay, for God did not send the Son, but God did not send the Son into the world in order that okay, that's just the basic form that he might judge, evaluate, assess the world, but rather that the world might be saved, rescued, saved, healed through him. The word is crine, the subjunctive form here, and that's crino, which is the basic form. It can mean condemn, but it can also have a neutral meaning of judge, evaluate, assess, consider. In the translation, I have they use the word condemn, but I don't know. I would kind of keep it neutral, maybe in this particular verse. I don't think I translated as condemn here, but rather, on the other hand, that he might that the world might be saved, might be healed through him. The one believing in him is not judged, is not the one put who puts their trust in him is not judged, is not again, it could mean condemned, but it's not the actual the word with condemn would be the same verb with a prefix kata kata krinata, but the one not having confidence already is already judged because he has not put his confidence in the nature of the unique son of God, the uh only begotten, I think, is the older translation you see sometimes, the only begotten, the the unique, the uh only unique, I think is I like the word unique, the unique son of God. And this is the judgment, Cresis, K-R-I-S-I-S, K-R-I-S-I-S. The judgment that the light has come into the world, and men rather loved darkness than the light, or their works, their actions were evil.

SPEAKER_08 37:19

Henry, in the English dictionary, it says for condemned to sentence someone to a particular punishment, especially death, and also express disapproval of.

Henry Jason 37:34

Yeah. Okay, let me let me look up this word. See, the word I'm the verb here, crino, which I I gave a number of the meanings of that verb. The thing is, it has a number of meanings. Okay, so this word means, among its meanings, to make a selection, to select, to prefer, to pass judgment upon, and therefore seek to influence the lives and actions of other people, to judge, pass judgment upon, express an opinion above, about, also means pass an unfavorable judgment upon, to criticize, find fault with, condemn, and going on, to make a judgment based on taking various factors into account, to judge, think, consider, look upon, also to come to a conclusion after a cognitive process, to reach a decision, decide, propose, intend. Also, to engage in a judicial process, to judge, decide, hail before a court, condemn. Also, hand over for judicial punishment, to ensure justice for someone, see to it that justice is done. So this word really has a whole range of meanings here, and I think it's just important to know that and to how you which one you choose, you hope you're choosing the right meaning in terms of one's understanding of Jesus and his purpose.

SPEAKER_04 39:07

I was wondering, isn't the statement self-explanatory? If you consider that when we're judged, when we when we're not trusting him and do whatever we want to do, we're already judged because that spirit in us has told us and we're disobedient. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty because they have not believed in God's one and only Son. But if that spirit within us has told us what to do and we're disobedient, so we feel that judgment, we're aware of it, but when we do trust Him and obey, we're not uh judged as guilty. That whole thing, if we read it as believers, we understand that's what it means.

Henry Jason 40:00

Yeah. The point I just wanted to make then was that the verb that's used here or in the noun, it can have these neutral meanings that you know you're evaluated, but because you're not as well, what these are saying, Nancy, if he's not paying attention to what God is saying, then you've already condemned yourself.

SPEAKER_13 40:23

Can I chime in here for a minute? I'm sorry. I'm sorry, David. Go ahead. I didn't go ahead.

SPEAKER_07 40:28

Well, I'm I'm looking at um the same section at verse 19, and there's two translations I have that say, and this is the basis for judging this, and another one says this is how the judgment works. So it's describing a process, I think, more than a conclusion. And as I see it, the working of the light is sort of self-actuating. People are judged by the light because they are behaving in darkness. It isn't that you have to be hauled up before the divine court, it's that you are living in a way that keeps you from the light. So I like this kind of as a gerundive anyway, an ongoing process. This is how it works rather than this is the judgment.

Henry Jason 41:23

What that word is, you know, this is the judgment, it's the word cresis, which gives us our English word crisis, but it's the word that means you know, this is the evaluation, this is the uh judgment in that sense. Again, I think I tend more to think of it as being somewhat more on the neutral side here, but then because you're not paying attention to being evaluated in a particular way, and you're ignoring God's evaluation, then you are condemned.

SPEAKER_13 41:55

My interest in the the the what the meaning of condemned is, and I appreciate the discussion so far, and then sort of neutral aspect is because I mean I think a lot of Christians take this as setting up, first of all, like eternal life read with respect to time and heaven equaling heaven, and then condemning being the opposite of that, being hell. And my understanding, I mean, maybe I missed this number of weeks, but later Jesus actually defines eternal life having nothing to do with time, it's just with being proximal to God and to, and so that actually that that sort of in some respects really leaves it wide open to me to what are we being judged or condemned, not opposed to judge or condemnment. Is it just separation itself? What it you know from the divine, being outside the kingdom, and it just sort of makes what I think is a straightforward passage, you know, usually referred to in football stadiums and stuff, sort of like dripping with like possible meaning rather than like certain meaning for me. It's kind of interesting.

Henry Jason 43:02

Yeah. It was the word kata crino, that verb, then it's clearly condemned. But krino can mean condemn, but it has all these other meanings that have more to do with a more neutral kind of thing. This is your evaluation, pay attention to it. This is the crisis, the cresis. This is the assessment. This is um God has assessed what you're doing, and uh He doesn't like it, so to speak. Anyway, we're we're running over, so I I think if I I think there was if one other person wanted to say something, and then we need to stop.

SPEAKER_05 43:35

Well, I was just going to say 17 indicates to me that condemn has a negative meaning, because what it's saying, for God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world. So it's it's uh sounding to me like the narrator is saying that that wasn't God's intention to condemn the world, which would make condemn a negative there rather than a neutral.

Henry Jason 44:00

Right, rather than that uh the new world might be saved, the world might be healed.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Yeah, so it's like it's setting up two possibilities: one condemnation and the other say salvation. So it seems to be have a negative meaning there.

Henry Jason 44:18

Okay, yeah, that's a good point. All right, I think we're we're running late. So uh I think we'll end there for today and we'll just pick this up next week, okay? And uh I hope everyone has a good week. I should just remind folks that if there are other people that you know of who might be interested in this kind of Bible study, please tell them about it. It's okay, we're open to about everybody at this point. Yesterday I was again reminded, as I've been told by other people, that the way we're doing this Bible study is different than I guess a lot of other Bible studies that are out there. So um they might be interested in in this kind of way of looking at things, which is a bit different than I don't know, whatever you have out there. So all right, well, thanks everyone, and uh see everyone next week, hopefully.

SPEAKER_03 45:09

Okay, thank you, Henry.

Henry Jason 45:11

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Thanks very much.

Host 45:14

This podcast has been a production of Ohio Yearly Meeting. It was hosted by Henry Jason and edited by Kim Palmer. The introduction and credits were read by Chip Thomas. The quote in our introduction is from the Queries and Advices section of Ohio Yearly Meetings Book of Discipline. A link to that book can be found in the show notes to this episode. We welcome feedback on this or any of our podcast episodes. We can be contacted through our website at Ohio Yearly Meeting.org.