Ohio Yearly Meeting's Podcast
So, if thee is interested in learning the differences between Conservative Quakers and other Quakers, or would like to understand differences between Quakers and other Christians, thee may well be at the right place. On the other hand, the Conservative Quaker perspective is so strikingly unique in contemporary society, that it will be a balm to many seeking spiritual fulfillment. To assist these seekers is the true intent of publishing our podcast.
A good many of the podcast installments will be presented by Henry Jason. Henry is knowledgeable in the Greek of the New Testament and has a fascinating way of tying the meaning of the original words with the writings of early Friends. Listening to him provides a refreshing view of scripture and is an excellent way to learn about original Quaker theology. Henry's podcasts are usually bible classes and so they are often interspersed with discussions, questions and insightful comments by his students.
The music in our podcasts is from Paulette Meier's CDs: Timeless Quaker Wisdom in Plainsong and Wellsprings of Life available at paulettemeier.com.
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Ohio Yearly Meeting's Podcast
Conservative Friends Bible Study of The Gospel of John #13
John 7:19 - 7:39
We explore the concept of righteous judgment from John 7:24 and examine what it means to judge with Christ's guidance rather than by appearances.
• Judging righteously requires consulting Christ within rather than relying on our own understanding
• The distinction between worldly judgment that condemns and righteous discernment guided by the Spirit
• When human laws contradict divine justice, Christians may need to stand against popular opinion
• The challenge of loving enemies while preventing ongoing harm
• Understanding the metaphor of "rivers of living water" as the Holy Spirit flowing through believers
• The hunger and thirst for righteousness that only God can truly satisfy
• The limitations of attempting to establish holiness through external laws alone
• How Nicodemus represents someone quietly following Jesus while remaining in established religious structures
A complete list of our podcasts, organized into topics, is available on our website.
To learn more about Ohio Yearly Meeting (Conservative) of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), please visit ohioyearlymeeting.org.
Those interested in exploring the distinctives of Conservative Friends waiting worship should consider checking out our many Zoom Online Worship opportunities during the week here. All are welcome!
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Advices read in these podcasts can be found on page 29 in our Book Of Dicipline.
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Advice number two Be faithful in maintaining your testimony against all war as inconsistent with the spirit and teaching of Christ. Live in the life and power that takes away the occasions of all wars and strife. Seek to take your part in the ministry of reconciliation between individuals, groups and nations. Ministry of reconciliation between individuals, groups and nations. Let the law of kindness know no limits. Show a loving consideration for all people From Ohio. Yearly Meeting's. Book of Discipline.
Speaker 2:This is the Greek Bible study session number 13 of the gospel according to john. We left off last time at chapter 7, verse 19. Here it is jesus speaking with. In verse 19 did not moses give you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why are you looking for an opportunity to kill me? The crowd answered you have a demon who is trying to kill you. Jesus answered them. I performed one work and all of you are astonished.
Speaker 2:Moses gave you circumcision. It is, of course, not from Moses, but from the patriarchs, and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath in order that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because I healed a man's whole body on the Sabbath? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment. I think the most important verse in what I just read for me is verse 24. Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment. We have this expression in English never judge a book by its cover. What's there outwardly? I think that's just very critical. I don't know if anyone's familiar with this book, the Jewish New Testament. It's a translation into English of the New Testament, but from a Jewish perspective, so that various words translated into English that are still commonly used by Jews are kept in their original Hebrew or Aramaic, so that if I were reading the same passage again, which I'm going to do I'm going to let you hear the difference with some of these words.
Speaker 2:Didn't Moshe give you the Torah? Yet not one of you obeys the Torah. Why are you out to kill me? You have a demon. The crowd answered who's out to kill you? Yeshua answered them.
Speaker 2:I did one thing, and because of this, all of you are amazed. Moshe gave you Berit Milach not that it came from Moshe, but from the patriarchs. And you do a boy's Berit Milach on Shabbat. If a boy is circumcised on Shabbat, so that the Torah of Moshe will not be broken, why are you angry with me because I made a man's whole body? Well, on Shabbat, stop judging by surface appearances and judge the right way. Sounds a little different, but you can clearly feel the Jewishness here when you use some of those words. Instead of Moses, you know Moshe and other words. There too, the Torah instead of the law and other words. There too, the Torah instead of the law, which is the first five books of the Old Testament, the Pentateuch teaching and Jesus is Yeshua. I just thought I'd read that. Maybe we'll do more of that in the future too. To give you a feel for what this might have sounded like originally to a Greek-speaking Jew.
Speaker 3:Was that translated from the Greek or was an English version used as the basis for the translation?
Speaker 2:I'm forgetting. Let me see here Jewish New Testament publications. You know, I think I looked for this before and I couldn't find any clear answer to the question, and I don't see anything in the immediate beginning of this. I think it's their own translation, nearly all other English translations of the New Testament. It says here this book has come to restore the Jewishness of the New Testament and it clearly does, if you read it anyway, as I was saying, this last verse, do not judge by appearances but judge with right judgment. I think is a very important verse because today so many people say don't be judgmental. But here and elsewhere in the new testament we are commanded to make righteous judgments, to look at things and consider them, and assess them, to weigh them as to whether there's something is good or bad, right or wrong. I think we need to keep that in mind. As Quaker Christians, I've been told so often don't be judgmental. Well, if they mean just condemnatory, you know, condemning that's one thing, but it's clear that we need to really make good judgments. Any comments, questions?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the quicker understanding is that we need to consult Christ in our judgment rather than just make our own good judgments because we are not capable of making yes, I probably should always append that to everything I say.
Speaker 2:He's right, pat um, but of course that's the only way of really making a clear judgment on something, and sometimes it's hard to even then get to know what Christ wants.
Speaker 4:Henry, I'm interested in how JB Phillips translated that last verse. You must not judge by the appearance of things, but by the reality.
Speaker 2:Okay, let me just look at the Greek here. Do not judge, do not make an assessment according to appearance, but rather judge, assess or judge a righteous judgment. Actually, that word I think I've used before and this is the word krisis. It's related to the verb krino. This is the noun and I'm just going to confirm because it gives several meanings here in the greek, about three or four. Okay, one is a legal process of judgment, a judgment of judging, and it goes into various subdivisions, and then it also means a court, a board of judges and finally an administration of what is right and fair, right in the sense of justice, righteousness. So that third and the first meanings are basically what we are talking about here god's righteous judgment. Okay, verse 25.
Speaker 2:Now some of the people of jer were saying is not this the man whom they are trying to kill? And here he is, speaking openly but they say nothing to him. Can it be that the authorities really know that this is the Messiah? Yet we know where this man is from, but when the Messiah comes, no one will know where he is from. Then Jesus cried out as he was teaching in the temple you know me and you know where I am from. I have not come on my own, but the one who sent me is true and you do not know him. I know him because I am from him and he sent me. Then they tried to arrest him, but no one laid hands on him because his hour had not yet come.
Speaker 2:Yet many in the crowd believed in him and were saying when the messiah comes, will he do more signs than this man has done? In the use of the word messiah here, perhaps some of your translations has the word christ, which is of course, of course the same meaning Christ, meaning the anointed one or the Messiah, messiahs. So when the Messiah comes, when the Christ comes, the anointed one, he who is anointed with the Spirit of God, fully anointed, will he do more signs than this man has done? Any comments, questions?
Speaker 5:I have a question about the last verse. I think it's a really important verse and what I'm wondering is what should be used to make a judgment or an assessment. What tool Is it, like the Ten Commandments or the Beatitudes, or what is that?
Speaker 2:Okay, what Pat is referring to is, I think, the true kind of judgment that we should be attempting to make and that is to have Christ within us, helping us and guiding us in making that judgment and making that consideration. There are judgments and there are considerations out there in legal courts and whatever, and of course they're not always right. I know that myself from some experience, unfortunately, if we ourselves are making a judgment, then we really need to have that righteous one, ie Christ Jesus be our guide and somehow hopefully follow his lead in us. Now, I know that's not always easy. I know myself that's not always easy. We're trying to get an answer and we don't seem to get an answer, other than maybe the answer is we're not getting an answer. But there's a difference, I think, in what I understand, between that righteousness and the right kind of judgment, the right kind of assessment that Christ can give us. That may be at odds with what the world is giving us and we have to just sometimes accept that the world is not. The world is wrong.
Speaker 5:I don't know if I'm making myself explaining myself well enough here I think I understand, henry, and my question wants you to go on about that in the sense um, it's jesus and the Holy Spirit and God that leads us. They can have a different judgment. In the sense it can not be harmful to anyone, but it can be really quite unconforming, just the idea that somebody should love their enemies. I mean, if you do that kind of thing, people would notice. In other words, I'm saying to do the right thing can break expectations, okay, and that interrupts people's you know pattern and they're not going to like you very much and will be embarrassing.
Speaker 2:I think I understand. I mean especially, you know, if let's say we're talking about loving our enemies, there will be people who will be quite angry with that kind of stance, that we are taking a truly Christian stance, and I mean we could be persecuted for that. I'm thinking again of Quakers who had a very rough time during the American Revolution because they would not take a stand.
Speaker 6:Yes, nancy, matthew 7.1.
Speaker 2:I was trying to think of this Judge not, or you will be judged. I want to see what that is in Greek.
Speaker 6:It goes on to say you will be judged in the same way that you judge others. I think that means if we judge with what God gives us, the understanding God gives us, it is right judgment. But if we judge in our own thinking, in our own ideas, in a human way, we'll be judged in that same way. So if we want God's judgment in us and treasure that, we will judge, but not in a harsh way but in the truth.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think even if we are doing that and we are judging righteously with Christ's help, we are doing that and we are judging righteously with Christ's help we could be persecuted for our righteous judgment. You know we have to understand that that happens, that worldly people don't understand sometimes the righteous judgment or the righteous understanding that we have, say, of loving enemies or many other things as well.
Speaker 6:That to them is just out of line with their worldly thinking and they can become quite angry at that and do yeah, because we, we want to do what we want to do and we don't want anybody else to criticize us, but there are things that we need to humble ourselves in. All of us do, so the judgment that we judge with we'll be judged ourselves in that same way.
Speaker 5:I was thinking like people make laws and people make mistakes. In the US we've had some bad laws, like, for example, women weren't allowed to vote and they were a subclass, and it wasn't until. I think her name is Paul, she's a Quaker and she went to get the vote for women and she got jailed. Are you familiar? I think her last name is Paul, alice Paul. I think. Yeah, is it? What is it Alice? Yes, that's it. That's it Alice Paul, and that woman had guts. Anyway, I'm just saying that it takes something to stand up when the law is wrong. Slavery has been, it was legal, and also when there was no employment laws and children work it in the mines. Anyway, I'm just saying, if we don't oppose those things, they stay on the books.
Speaker 2:I think it's important for us to take our own stand against them. If we are given that understanding, that it's important to voice a stand, like I'm thinking of all the jim crow laws that were in, you know well, we're there for decades and decades, even after the civil war. There's a lot more we could say about this, unfortunately, but the worldly laws are not the same as the law of the Spirit, and the law of the Spirit is a term that was often used in early Christianity and it was in contrast to the law of Moses that there is something greater than worldly laws. God's justice is very different than human justice, which can often, unfortunately, be wrong, completely wrong and, you know, hurtful to so many people, like slaves and whatever, for so many decades, centuries. We need to be those shining lights on the hill when we are called to be such lights.
Speaker 5:And also I was just thinking. Sorry to say another one, but in Nazi Germany it was legal to kill Jews it was legal, that's how it was and take their property. So if you kill them, you are within the law.
Speaker 2:I know here in California in the early 19th century it was legal to kill Indians. Wow, you know, I mean it just goes on and on. I mean you could actually get a bounty if you brought in the scalp of an Indian at one time.
Speaker 6:The government would pay you. Oh no.
Speaker 2:It just goes on and on. I mean, it's just we have to. It's really sad, but we need to be righteous in our understanding and have the Lord help us understand things like that.
Speaker 5:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's go on. George had a question.
Speaker 7:I just wanted to say something. It's just a thought I've had through the years and actually it's what I've been associated with other faith traditions within the Christian, you know larger Christian body. But when I read the scriptures on you know, talking about your enemies, how to treat them, to love them, to bless them, to do good to them. And then you also read the things on judgment. When someone says, well, I know he's my enemy, but I'm going to love him anyway. But I feel like sometimes they've missed the point.
Speaker 7:To me I almost feel like as Christians, we don't have any enemies. Sometimes they've missed the point. To me I almost feel like as Christians, we don't have any enemies, because to me, if you see someone as an enemy, in a way I feel like you've already altered that relationship. So to me I feel like, as a person of faith and all, really you have to use language to convey a point, but I think the point there is not to love your enemies but not to have enemies. There's not to love your enemies but not to have enemies, because if we carry out the scriptures, then we don't see or treat anyone is that just just a thought I have.
Speaker 2:You know, I think I what they're saying. Georgia reminds me of what jesus said about uh, you know you may get angry, but don't let the sun set on your anger.
Speaker 7:That's still true, I mean, for a true christian I guess in the workplace people say well, don't you know that person doesn't mean good for the way they're working with you, what their intentions are, of course. Yes, I recognize that. But to me I'm called to treat all people the same. Anyway, just a thought. So you know, because I've always wrestled with people, say, well, I know they're my enemy, but I'm going to love them anyway. I thought, but you're really not showing love because you're not really. You know, you have to not see them as an enemy to truly love them, or you have to look at it a little differently.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the time. Okay, thank you, george. I'm thinking also that so often, when people have enemies, they want to retaliate against them. You know, or there's revenge, or so often you get in a war, or whatever. You start acting the way your enemy acts towards you. Why act like them? You should be acting the way God tells you to.
Speaker 5:Those are really important and I don't mean to get off, but I've had this question about how to do this. I'll use Hitler because it's more clear cut. Say, we forgive our enemies and they're continuing to kill and do damage. You know, it's not retaliation, it's stopping killing or stopping damage. Or in other words, the person continues. It's what's happening in the future, not what's happened in the past. So how does a Quaker handle Hitler? I know we've got to get back to the Greek, but how does a Quaker do that?
Speaker 2:We have to have our model, christ Jesus, in us, that spirit of Christ guiding us not to be like our enemies and do what our enemies do to everyone. I mean it may take a strong faith to go all the way, which is, I think, what's asked of us If we are asked to undergo persecution or even death. God didn't spare his son, jesus from a painful death and that is a strong faith. And I'm just recalling that in the New Testament I don't know how the translations are now in English, but Jesus a couple of times talks to his disciples and calls. He uses an adjective there saying oh, you have little faith, you have little trust in me.
Speaker 2:Of course that changed after the resurrection, but these are important questions. If we love just our family and friends, what more are we doing than tax collectors or Pharisees, I think, as Jesus pointed out? I mean they do the same, so we're no different than anyone else and if we really truly want to be actually quaking in the fear of the Lord, that is really understanding the power of God. And the power of God ultimately will be just and honest and will make everything very clear as to his will will be done, he will succeed. People think of the book of Revelation as a very negative book, but in the end there it's a very positive book. All the saints, all those who are followers of Jesus and try hard to obey and do his will, they win out in the end.
Speaker 6:And God said vengeance belongs to him right vengeance belongs to me.
Speaker 2:And then there's an emphasis on the word I. I am the one who will repay. That you'll see in the greek. You won't know that. Notice that in english. But the word I is there, which is ordinarily not there. It's just understood in the verb I am the one that will repay says the Lord Revenge is mine, not yours. And yet there's this tendency for so many of us to want to get back to retaliate after we've been hurt, injured, harmed in one way or the other. Righteous anger can be a bad kind of anger. That's where you have to deal with these things within yourself.
Speaker 5:I was thinking more that you're trying to protect a child from you know.
Speaker 2:I understand. I mean you just think of when, you know, in World War II, when both sides were bombing each other's cities, I mean, children and women and innocents were being bombed. That had nothing to do with the war, both sides were doing it. Americans were bombing Berlin and the Germans were bombing London. What can I say? Love your enemies.
Speaker 5:Thank you, it's hard.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's not easy, I agree, I agree, thank you. It's hard. Oh, it's not easy, I agree, I agree. But if we're yoked to the lord, half that burden is taken on by the lord and that becomes easier for us. Not that it's easy, but easier I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I've had a problem with it uh-huh, okay, let's go on, all right yes okay, fine, verse 32, chapter 7 the pharisees heard the crowd muttering such things about him, and the chief priests and the pharisees sent temple police to arrest him. Jesus then said I will be with you a little while longer and then I am going to him. Who sent me? You will search for me, but you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come. The Jews said to one another where does this man intend to go that we will not find him? Does he intend to go to the dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? What does he mean by saying you will search for me and you will not find me, and where I am, you cannot come? Just one verse here. I'd like to just see if you can hear this verse 32 in the original with the Hebrew words. That's where it says the Pharisees heard the crowd. And it says here with the Hebrew words the Puroshim heard the crowd whispering these things about Yeshua. So the head, kohanim, and the Puroshim sent some of the temple guards to arrest him. Just get a different flavor when you hear that. Definitely, okay, let's go on to verse 37.
Speaker 2:On the last day of the festival, the great day, while Jesus was standing there, he cried out let anyone who is thirsty come to me and let the one who believes in me drink. As the scripture has said, out of the believer's heart shall flow rivers of living water. Now he said this about the spirit which believers in him were to receive, for as yet there was no spirit, because jesus was not yet glorified. Or, in a different translation, for as yet the spirit had not been given. Now one thing I want to say here. I've said a couple of times in the past. I believe in this series with John.
Speaker 2:There are three words in the Greek that are used for the spirit Outwardly. One word is the word for wind or breath, another word is the word for oil, olive oil, and the third word is water. The word that outwardly means wind or breath is the one that most often is translated as spirit. But in cases as we see here, we're talking about water, rivers of living water, and then it gets explained. Now he said this about the spirit. So that's the spirit that is coming out of the bowels of jesus um, out of his belly, and he's that source of the spirit here in the sense of water. Again, with wind, breath, water, oil, they all flow.
Speaker 2:The spirit is something that is in movement. It's a divine motion, a divine movement, an invisible divine motion, and Quakers have historically used those words movement, motion. They also say the inflowing, flowing in the inflowing of the spirit, the holy spirit. And here is one instance where you can understand this in terms of rivers, flowing rivers of divine spirit. And in verse 39, what I understand. Here again, there are two different greek versions of this. Uh, probably the one I would accept is for, as yet, the spirit, the holy spirit, had not been given. Uh, I think that's probably in the sense of fully given to these people these eventually would be christians that of course the spirit was there, of course the holy spirit was in isaiah and all the prophets and others to in various degrees. But here we're talking about what would be a future event for some of these listeners who would then be filled with this spirit, these, this living water. It's not that there was no spirit before. No, that's not the understanding.
Speaker 4:In 39, henry, the last word glorified. What's that Greek?
Speaker 2:Let me look 39, uh, 39 edoxaste. Okay, for let me see what. Let me look at the translation they have here. Yet there was spirit, because jesus, not yet, was glorified again, glorified in terms of the spirit of god being manifested in him to others. That's how I understand that, because glory, the noun can refer to the Shekinah, the manifested presence of God, the apparent, awkwardly apparent, manifestation of the spirit of God, the divine spirit in Jesus. So I think that's what's being referred to here, that he was not yet glorified. He was that to those who don't have the spirit fully in them yet, that they will have eventually, that it will become manifest.
Speaker 4:What does the Hebrew New Testament that he has? How do they handle that?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. Let me see 39. Oh, that's a good question, let me see 39. They just use the word glorified.
Speaker 3:They don't give it a different translation. The Greek referred to some light in the word that is used for glorified the root of the word is the same root in the noun.
Speaker 2:Let's just put it down here Doxa is the noun. Let's just put it down here Doxa is the noun glory, which means splendor, brilliance. And then it refers to the Shekinah, and that means the manifested, and that means the manifested presence of God.
Speaker 3:Does the word doxology come from doxa?
Speaker 2:Yes, and the what's the verb here? I just lost. I'm trying to think it was in a passive form there. Ego doxaste, doxazo would be the verb, and so that's to. To glorify the meanings of the similar to the noun glory, splendor, brilliance. Shekinah has other meanings as well. It means that an opinion, when you give an opinion of something. But that's not the meaning we have here.
Speaker 4:I wonder if there's an element that Jesus hadn't ascended into heaven yet that's connected to that.
Speaker 2:I kind of think not. I'm thinking the sense here is the fact that these people just aren't seeing who Jesus really is at this point and that it will change in the future. The living waters will pour into them from Jesus. They will have the Spirit, they will see the manifested presence of God in him, they will see the divinity in him, and that's not clear yet at this point. And my impression of this passage right here is that that's what kind of context I think, jack, that I'm feeling.
Speaker 2:When they heard these words, some in the crowd said this is really the prophet. Others said this is the Messiah. But some asked surely the Messiah does not come from Galilee, does he has not? The scripture said that the Messiah is descended from David and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David lived. So there was a division in the crowd because of him. Some of them wanted to arrest him, but no one laid hands on him. Again, I think what we're just seeing is that they're not aware of the genealogy of Jesus, and just a comment here about the division between these people, some thinking that he is the Messiah, that is the Christ. Let me just see what the Greek, what the Hebrew, says On hearing his words, some people in the crowd said surely this man is the prophet. Others said this is the Messiah, but others said how the messiah come from the galil? Doesn't the tanakh say that the messiah is from the seed of david and comes from the village where david lived? So the people were divided because of him.
Speaker 3:Some wanted to arrest him, but no one laid a hand on him was um the prophet referred to in verse 40, that verse that's in Deuteronomy like unto me the Lord, your God, will raise up a prophet. Him ye shall hear in all things.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. I didn't think of that. On the other hand, I'm thinking it might be not Jeremiah, but what these saying Pat, that's a possibility.
Speaker 3:Were the people waiting for that prophet to be raised up? I mean, was that an expectation that they were?
Speaker 2:looking for At a Jewish Passover ceremony or when they're celebrating. Who is the absent member at the table?
Speaker 4:Elijah.
Speaker 2:Elijah, thank you. Yes, I'm wondering if that's the prophet that might be referred to here, or it could be the prophet that Moses spoke of, which would still be also the Messiah, the Christ. Whether you translate it as Messiah or Christ, I guess it depends on your translation. Okay, let's go on to finish this chapter. Then the temple police went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, who asked them why did you not arrest him? The police answered never has anyone spoken like this. Then the Pharisees replied surely you have not been deceived too, have you? Has any one of the authorities or the Pharisees believed in him? But this crowd which does not know the law, they are accursed. Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus before and who was one of them, asked Our law does not judge people without first giving them a hearing to find out what they are doing does it.
Speaker 2:They replied surely you are not also from Galilee, are you? Search and you will see that no prophet is to arise from Galilee. Nicodemus gets mentioned several times on this gospel, if you remember, back in chapter 3, when he sees that he's a disciple of Jesus who only comes at night. Now he's a member of the council and he is just quietly seeing Jesus in the evening. When he's there, I gather in Jerusalem. The Hebrew word for Jerusalem is Yerushalayim and he's also mentioned here. And he's also mentioned at the end of this gospel when Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus go to Pilate and say can we have his body to bury it? So it's just interesting, the word Nicodemus.
Speaker 2:I know what the Greek means. It means victory to the people. We have the English word Nike, and that's Nike here. The beginning of it is the word for victory and Dame is like in democracy, people. So victory to the people. That's his name. His name in Aramaic is Naktimon, naktimon name. His name in Aramaic is Nakdimon.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think we'll stop here because I don't want to go on to the next story about the woman who was caught in adultery. I think we need to talk about that a bit. So are there any comments, further comments on what we've read today or questions. I do want to say one thing again to remind you that the Pharisees at the time of Jesus were considered to be good guys. They were trying to get the people to pay attention to and obey all the laws in the Torah. And what Paul later says in his epistles is that you know he tried to do that too, but it didn't get them far enough, or him far enough that there was something greater, that was needed some extra help.
Speaker 2:I mean you can't make laws expecting people to become holy just by having the laws you make be followed. It's sort of an impossibility. You need the law of the spirit within you that can cover everything an impossibility. You need the law of the spirit within you that can cover everything. You just couldn't create the thousands of laws. I mean there was 613 laws there that the Jews had. You have to remember, the Torah was both a religious set of laws as well as a civil set of laws. There was no distinction between the two. Israel was a theocracy. The two were combined, the two were mixed together.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think he says in 37, or it says in 37, what's necessary, rather than adhering to rules and laws. He identifies it by saying if any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink. It's an inward awareness of need that is what's necessary to move us toward Christ. It's not kind of social rules, it's an inward, personal sense of something missing. That's necessary.
Speaker 2:That's a very important point. Actually, it's something I often think of in the blessed of those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, where they will be filled. There's that hunger and thirst for true justice, true righteousness, true upright dealings among human beings, dealings between God and ourselves, dealings with others. We're not going to find it fulfilled completely in this world, because it's obvious, but we want it badly. And that's that hunger and thirst for true righteousness, for true fairness, for true justice, and that's only going to be given to us in a complete form by god himself.
Speaker 3:so it's not something we can always expect to have fulfilled in this world as much as we want it it's not just a need in the social arena, it's a need within oneself, a sense of incompletion within oneself. A sense of incompletion. It should be there for everyone. I think it is there for everyone, but it's really a hard thing to feel, so we kind of tamp it down and refuse to feel it. That it's like thirst. You know it needs to be met.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I said that particular verse and the beatitudes is one of my favorite and I really feel it often have for most of my life, actually all my life. That hunger and thirst for true righteousness, true fairness, true justice, the way things should be, the way they are in heaven, in the kingdom of god, eternal life, and to feel that while still alive is one of the basic aims, goals of being a true Christian, as true Christian Quakers have understood traditionally. Anything else, okay, so good. Well, we will continue with chapter eight next week, all right? Well, thanks everybody and have a good week.
Speaker 5:Thanks Henry. Thank you Henry.
Speaker 4:Okay, thanks, henry.
Speaker 1:This podcast has been a production of Ohio Yearly Meeting. It was hosted by Henry Jason and edited by Kim Palmer. The introduction and credits were read by Chip Thomas. The quote in our introduction is from the Queries and Advices section of Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline. A link to that book can be found in the show notes to this episode. We welcome feedback on this or any of our podcast episodes. We can be contacted through our website, ohioyourneymeetingorg.