Conservative Friends Bible Study of The Gospel of John #21

John 12:20–36 

We read John 12:20–36 as Greeks ask to see Jesus, and we follow the thread through language, glory, obedience, and the summons to walk in the light. A humble king, a troubled prayer, and a heavenly voice reframe power, time, and true life.

• Greeks approach through Philip and Andrew
• Donkey imagery and humility of the king
• Hora, kairos, and the meaning of “hour”
• Kurios, phoné, and translation choices
• Seed dying, psuché versus zōē aiōnios
• Strong call to follow and obey
• Heavenly voice, thunder, and discernment
• Light versus darkness and urgent belief
• Messiah expectations and suffering redeemer
• Quaker practice of convincement and repentance

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Transcript

Opening Advice And Context

Host 0:01

Advice number nine In consideration of marriage, remember that happiness depends on a deep and understanding love. Seek to be joined in a common discipleship of Jesus Christ. Ask guidance of God, desiring above all temporal considerations that your union may be owned and blessed of Him. Consider the precious responsibilities of parenthood and do not forget that the help that you may draw from the loving counsel of your own parents. From Ohio Yearly Meetings Book of Discipline.

Henry Jason 0:41

This is the Ohio Yearly Meeting Greek Bible Study. We are reading the Gospel according to John. This is session number 21, and we left off at chapter 12, verse 20. Uh, are there any comments or questions regarding what we did last week or weeks before?

SPEAKER_04 1:07

I had one little comment. I thought it was interesting that the crowd, I think Jesus acknowledged that they were there because there were signs from God. Whereas earlier, when he'd fed the people with the loaves and fishes, they were only there for the bread. So even though they're not really getting it yet, it's as though evolving a tiny bit.

Henry Jason 1:44

Oh, where is that?

SPEAKER_04 1:46

This was John 12, 12 through 19, Palm Sunday.

Henry Jason 1:50

Yeah. Maybe this was the verse. I not I wasn't thinking of this one. Number nine, verse nine, when the great crowd of the Jews learned that he was there, they came not only because of Jesus, but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. I mean, I could understand why they would want to see Lazarus if he was dead and now he's alive. But I was thinking of a different verse, and I don't know if that was also what he was referring to. A similar verse is coming up somewhere, I think, in the what we may read today or next time. No, I don't see it. Remind me if he finds it or if it's is something about to be read. Okay, let's begin then with verse 20. Any other comments, questions?

Donkey Symbolism And Zechariah

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Henry, I'm here's David Fink. Um, I'm not sure if we had commented here or if it was in another group that was looking at a similar passage about uh the symbolism of the donkey versus how a messiah or a conquering hero might be expected to come in. Had had we talked about that? Yes, yes, okay, good.

Henry Jason 2:54

Yeah, military folks and royalty and whatnot would be on horses. Ordinary people did not ride horses, they would be using donkeys and asses, and that was the poor man and middle class man's uh beast of burden, so to speak. Anything else?

SPEAKER_00 3:13

It's a reference, uh I mean it's a fairly uh direct quote from Zechariah. And yes, I guess the the question is why why did Zechariah say it? We we don't have to dig back there, I guess.

Greeks Seek Jesus And Names

What Language Did Jesus Speak

The Hour And Glory Explained

Henry Jason 3:25

We would miss it as modern people to understand the difference. You know, what's the big deal between riding on a horse or a donkey? But they would have known immediately when this was written that there's something strange here about a king on a donkey. It's humility we're talking about here, a very different kind of king. Okay, let's get to verse 20. Now, among those who went up to worship at the festival were some Greeks. They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida or Bethsaida in Galilee, and said to him, Sir, we wish to see Jesus. Philip went and told Andrew, then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. Jesus answered them, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Very truly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. Those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there will my servant be also. Whoever serves me, the Father will honor. Now, in verse 20, when it's talking about Greeks going up to Jerusalem to worship, my understanding is these Greeks would probably be Jews. Jews who lived outside of Palestine at this time and whose language was Greek. There was a high large percentage, a large number of Greeks in Jews, as I think I've mentioned in this group before, in the two major cities of the empire, in Rome and in Alexandria. Those were the two most populous cities of the Roman Empire. And of course, Greek was the international language of the Mediterranean at this time, especially the eastern part of the Mediterranean. Two, three hundred years later, Latin would become much more prominent. At this point, Latin is more or less a uh a legal language, but of course it's the language of the Roman oppressors. So these Greeks had come there because they were going to worship up at the festival at Jerusalem. And in the next verse, it says they came to Philip, who was from Bethesda in Galilee, and said to him, Sir, we wish to see Jesus. Now this is interesting that these Greek, these Greek-speaking Jews, most likely, went to Philip. Why? If you look at the 12 apostles and their names, Philip and then Andrew appeared to be the only two with Greek names. Philippos is the Greek name that gives us Philip. Philip basically means lover of horses. It's an interesting name. If I broke it up, it'd be Phil, you know, in Philadelphia. And hippos is the Greek word for horse. So these Greeks have gone to someone who speaks Greek, they assume, because he's got a Greek name. Now I've mentioned this a number of times, but it's always good to remember this word kurios means sir. And it also means the word we translate as Lord, but basically means owner or master, owner of some type of property or a master like a slave master. Here, this word is being translated as sir because they're just being polite, because it's a polite form of how you address someone and they don't to a stranger saying, Sir, we wish to see Jesus. So in verse 22, Philip went and told Andrew, which is another possibly Greek name, and then Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. So I think this question came up. Actually, it was David who asked this of me recently in an email, how much Greek did Jesus speak? And uh it's a debatable question. Different people have different thoughts and different theories. The standard language, basically, in all of Palestine at this time, was Aramaic. Hebrew was still spoken by a certain percentage of people, but for other Jews it was the religious language. They no longer spoke it as a native language. Aramaic was the language that they spoke. Aramaic and Hebrew are two similar languages. They both belong to the same language family. Actually, it's interesting in Greek, there is only one word, Semitiki, Semitiki, you know, like Semitic, uh, Semites, it which means both Aramaic and Hebrew. The Greek doesn't make a distinction between those two languages, which is very interesting. So when you see it, you have to decide in English whether you translate it as Hebrew or you if you translate it as Aramaic. They're very similar, just like in the Romance languages, Spanish and Portuguese are very similar, also Italian. They're close. So they're going up and they want to see Jesus. Now, what language did Jesus speak? Of course, the international language of the time for the whole area is Greek, Biblical Greek, Koine Greek is what we call it, which just means common Greek, common to not any dialect in particular, but just common Greek. And that was basically true of all this area after Philip of Macedon conquered a lot of that part of the world and spread Greek culture throughout the Mideast, all the way towards India. This was the language that you would find in international, so to speak, and uh kinds of relations between peoples. The northern part of Israel, of Palestine, what we call Galilee, was heavily influenced by Greek. There were cities, there was one city in particular, Sepphoris, which was just a few miles away from Nazareth. So the question is, how much Greek did Jesus know? How much did he speak? We really don't know directly. He may have spoken it or may have only partially spoken it, know some Greek, or he may not have spoken it at all. It's kind of interesting here that these two Greek speakers uh first go to someone who has a Greek name so that they can get to Jesus because they're speaking Greek, they probably don't speak Aramaic. And then Philip sees Andrew and they both go to Jesus and say, We got these two Greek-speaking guys here, and they want to see you. So, how much Greek did Jesus speak? Different scholars have different opinions upon this, and that's basically what I can just say at the moment. We know that Jesus had to probably speak Aramaic and he also knew Hebrew. If you recall, he read from Hebrew scripture in the synagogue in Nazareth. But there's no place that says he spoke Greek. Although, when you get to the passion of Jesus when he's in front of Pilate and others, Pilate would not have spoken Aramaic, very unlikely. He most likely would have spoken Greek and Latin. Verse 23 Jesus answered them, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Now I've mentioned this. Do you recall what this word man is in Hebrew? Adam, the son of Adam. Adam in Hebrew means both man and mankind. So Jesus is a son of humanity, a son of mankind, uh, or a the son of man, a son of Adam, both ways. And even in modern Hebrew, it's the same word that means man or mankind. The hour has come. Hour also is a word that means hour or a specific time, not necessarily just one hour, as we speak of one hour. The hour has come for the son of man, the son of Adam, the son of mankind to be glorified. And I've spoken spoken about glorified and glory many times. Glory is the word doxa, which can refer to the splendor of something, the brilliance of something, but it also can refer and does refer to the shekinah. The shekinah is the Hebrew word that refers to the manifested presence of God, God somehow expressing himself in an apparent way. And that's an important word and an important understanding here. Whenever you see the word and glorify, the hour has come for the son of Adam, the son of mankind, to be glorified, to have God expressing himself in Jesus. Yes, David, did you have that hand up?

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yes, I'm I'm having trouble getting to my own copy of the Greek. And a crucial difference, I think, in two different words that are translated as uh time in English. Um chronos, which is more mechanical, you know, tick-tock, tick-tock. And the fullness of time, the cut kairos. And I just wonder which word is used here. I I can't find it.

Henry Jason 13:12

Well, this is a third word.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

About the time being.

Henry Jason 13:15

Yeah, there's kronos.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Oh, okay.

Henry Jason 13:18

And then there's um what was the other one? You just gave me kairos. Kronos, kairos, and hora.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Oh, yeah.

Henry Jason 13:28

We have hora with a long O.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Oh, okay. So you got these three words because if it were Kairos, I would it would have a lot more theological depth to it.

Henry Jason 13:41

Yeah, it's like the perfect time, the appropriate time, the right time. Kronos is just your basic time, you know, chronology of something. We have our English word chronology. Right. And Hora actually gives us our English word hour, H-O-U-R. And that's uh a little bit of time, an hour, a while, a little while. It's kind of just a very vague amount of time, but the time is coming, is what Jesus is saying, or it's it has come.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

I think that it's a little disjointed, this passage. It doesn't really make sense. Philip and Andrew tell him that there are Greeks that are wanting to see him, and his response is the hour is come that the Son of Man should be glorified.

Henry Jason 14:30

Yes, I have the same, I've had the same thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

I mean, what isn't being said there? And it must be that Jesus is recalling his what his mission is, is to Israel. And when another nation or people from other areas appear, that indicates that his mission is nearly completed. It's time.

Seed Dying And True Life

Henry Jason 14:55

I need to make an important point here, though, that also occurs several times in this gospel, and some to come in future sessions, is that there are a lot of disjointed areas in this gospel. It's as if when this was put together, as we will know from the very end by more than one editor, they probably had several bits and pieces, fragments of documents that were written by the beloved disciple who was the source of everything we read here, that they didn't know quite how to put things together. And sometimes, like here, you have this sharp break, and then suddenly it doesn't seem to follow. We'll see this again, is coming up, I think I forget around chapter 14 or so, uh, in a very sharp break there, where it sounds like they're finishing a discussion, and then suddenly in the next verse, they didn't finish it, they go on. It just is a very sharp break, and that occurs more than once. And scholars have noticed that with regard to this gospel. It may be too that more was said here that wasn't of an important nature, so it didn't get recorded as to what Jesus was saying to those Greeks. I mean, they wanted to see him, but what did they ask? How did he answer them? And all we have is this little bit of him suddenly, we don't even have the question, right? So it's just a unique feature of how this gospel was came together in its final edition that we have.

SPEAKER_05 16:21

I'm thinking of another story. I'm not sure where it is, uh, the story of the Syrophoenician woman who comes and says that her daughter is dying, and uh Jesus says to her that it's not fit to give the children's meat to the dogs, referring that she's not one of the people that he's supposed to be ministering to. Yes, and she says, even the dogs under the table eat the crumbs that fall, and so he then affirms her faith, but again, he's limiting himself to the children of Israel, right? Because mission, and that seems to be what he's doing here, too, possibly.

Henry Jason 17:13

The word dog was a slur for the Goyim, the Gentiles, the non-Jews. They would be called dogs. I mean, it wasn't a pleasant nice word to say, but the Jews would have some of them would have used that word to refer to those non-Jews, the pagans, the heathens, the Goim, whatever you want to call them.

SPEAKER_07 17:34

Could it have been that he was simply testing her?

Following Jesus And Obedience

Troubled Soul And Heavenly Voice

Henry Jason 17:38

Yes. Actually, I have had that thought in the past, Karen, because I think he knew what he was going to do. I do need to say something. In the Muslim faith, in Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet, but the high, the greatest prophet of of course is Muhammad, and Jesus is considered a secondary kind of prophet, but he's considered to be a prophet to the specifically to the Jews. And if you think of the earliest form of Christianity, there were a lot of there's a lot of discussion and actually kind of verbal battles going on among the earliest Christians whether non-Jewish followers of Jesus should be accepted as followers, and would they need to obey dietary kosher laws, et cetera, et cetera. And it was discussed and it was finally decided, most likely Peter was the primary person at the Council of Jerusalem in the year 50 AD, that yes, it would be okay, and they don't have to follow all the Jewish regulations and whatnot of Judaism to become Christians as a body. Of course, I'm saying as a body, these are little house churches that we're talking about, very uh without a really strong structure at that time. I hope I'm making myself clear with that. There were people who were followers of Jesus after his resurrection who did not see Jesus as divine. There are others who felt that we must, as Christians, follow all the Jewish rules and regulations. And then, of course, there were those who felt they no longer were the path ordained for followers of Christ Jesus to be on the path of truth, the path of righteousness to eternal life and the kingdom of God. All right. Okay, in verse 24, Jesus is clearly talking about his impending death and resurrection, and making a comparison here with a grain of wheat that must be buried in order to become whatever it would become in terms of a tree that would bear much fruit. In verse 25, those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Okay, we've got a couple of things going on here. The word for hate in Greek is the verb missel, and that means hate, but it also has another meaning. It means to be indifferent to. Well, I think he's not really saying you must hate them. At least in this Greek, if you translate that he must be you must be indifferent to their traditions that have been handed on, that there's something more important than what they have taught you as parents in terms of spiritual understandings and spiritual ways of doing things. And here it says those who love their life lose it, and those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. I don't think it necessarily means you hate your life. Now I want to make another point here. This word for life is sukiya, which refers to our physical life as an animal. A tiger has life as a tiger, a lion as a lion, a human as a human, a dog as a dog. It gives us our English word psyche. I'm sorry, it's it's suchei here. So that is referring to one's life as an animal. I'm just put the Latin word, I think, is anima, that sense of life. But then in that same sentence, you have eternal life, and that's the word zoe. And that is life, just sort of life and being aware, being conscious. Having life in that sense without regard to a particular form. In in Sukei, it's like a life, life in terms of life with regard to a specific form. But this life is like life, and then of course it gets with translated with eternal life. Zoe He Ionios, the life, the Ionios, eternal, or just means it's an adjective meaning of the ages. So the life of the ages. But this life, eternal life, is just the sense of being conscious as a life form, but not the life form itself. So we're not talking about an individual body, but this other sense of life. So you have both words life in the sentence, but they're two different Greek words with two different meanings. Those who love their life as an animal, I guess, as a human being animal, and those who hate and lose it, but those who hate their life who are indifferent in a sense to that life in this world will keep it for eternal life. What's what one's perspective is where one is focused on this eternal life.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

But I was comparing three or four different English translations, and all but one followed the King James in this word hate. But the one called the Contemporary English Version, which I think was commissioned by American Bible Society for public reading, softens it a little bit and it makes it, if not more reasonable, at least more understandable to me. So for verse 25, if you love your life, you will lose it. If you give it up in this world, you will be given eternal life, which points more toward self-sacrifice or at least not putting yourself at the center of things. Giving it up. Of course, that's a little different than indifference, but it it feels qualitatively different from hate. And I'm glad that we've had this expansion of Maceo.

Light Versus Darkness

God’s Essence: Power, Love, Presence

Henry Jason 24:14

I think for so many people, it's you know that pagan sense of eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die. So you're just concerned about this life, this body, and uh hedonistic kind of pleasure-seeking way of thinking about satisfying all the cravings and addictions and uh impulses of one's physical life, physical body. Okay, all right, verse 26 whoever serves me must follow me, and where I am, there will my servant be also. Whoever serves me, the father will honor. I'm not mistaken. If I'm my memory ain't what it used to be, I think this word follow here is the word that means follow like a soldier follows a general. That kind of uh very, you know, obeying God, obeying Christ Jesus. Let me just confirm that. Okay, Kalutheo, to move behind someone in the same direction, to follow or accompany someone who takes the lead. Accompany, go along with, to follow someone as a disciple, be a disciple, follow. Come generally to comply with, to follow, to obey. So it's a strong kind of follow and a sense of obey as well. And this is obeying, doing the will of God, obeying the Spirit of Christ as He directs us. This is let's see, uh Saresmu, follow me. Again, it's not just follow, but in a much stronger sense of follow. Doing, obeying, doing, following in the same footsteps, like a brigade of soldiers or something. Okay, let's go on to the next section. Verse 27. Now my soul is troubled, and what should I say? Father, save me from this hour. No, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name. Then a voice came from heaven. I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again. The crowd standing there heard it and said that it was thunder. Others said, An angel has spoken to him. Jesus answered, This voice has come for your sake, not for mine. Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be driven out, and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. He said this to indicate the kind of death he was to die. The crowd answered him, We have heard from the law that the Messiah remains forever. How can you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man? Jesus said to them, The light is with you for a little longer. Walk while you have the light, so that the darkness may not overtake you. If you walk in the darkness, you do not know where you are going. While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become children of light. The interesting thing, first, I think that one should say about this, these verses are reminiscent of something else in the three synoptic gospels. Can anyone see what this is similar to?

SPEAKER_07 28:04

The agony in the garden?

Henry Jason 28:06

Yes, the agony in the garden, the garden of Gethsemane after the Last Supper. You have that discourse of Jesus really aware of what's going to happen to him and allowing it to happen. And we don't have that passage like this in this gospel, but this is this sounds like the same thing. Where does this come from? It doesn't quite follow as to he wasn't saying this to the Greeks, the Greek-speaking Jews, but again, it seems to be something very reminiscent of the same kind of words that were used there in the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus is asking, Do I have to do this? But then realizing, no, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name. Again, this word glorify and glory. Glorify, make manifest your presence, the presence of God the Father. So glorify your name. And what is the name of God? Name is his basic essence, his basic nature. And what is that basic essence nature? God is power, overwhelming power, power to create universes. May always make evident your presence, your divine power in what is about to happen. Yes, David.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

And even though most of these English translations say to believe in the light, to trust in the light, to have confidence that our being can be uh with the source of light is just um much stronger, I think, for me, probably all of us, than to say, well, this is something you have to affirm the principle.

Henry Jason 30:14

Yeah, I'm actually speaking about an earlier verse in 28, though.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Henry Jason 30:20

Uh and there again, the word voice, a voice came from heaven. The word for voice, phoné, that Greek word means voice, and it also just means sound. You know, the English word phonetics comes from this word, so you can translate it either way, it has both meanings. A sound came from the sky. The word for heaven and sky is the same word in Greek, so that's why they were thinking, oh, it was thunder. Then a voice came from heaven, or a sound came from the sky above. I have glorified it and I will glorify it again. I have made known my name, my power has been made evident or manifest, and I will glorify it again. This is God the Father, and I will make manifest my power, my name again. The crowd standing there heard it and said it was thunder. Others said an angel has spoken to him, a messenger from God. Yes, who's speaking?

SPEAKER_07 31:27

Um, is God's essence really overwhelming power? I mean, I thought that I mean we can imagine a God with overwhelming power, but that really isn't enough. And we can imagine a human with love but no power. But it seems that isn't God's essence overwhelming love.

Henry Jason 31:44

Um yes. I mean, the thing is, you know, we can use all these adjectives just to describe God. Well, all power. There's an English word that you've probably heard, almighty, all might. That's what we're talking about here, all power, almighty, all loving. There are a few more there. I can't, I can't try to think of the other all almighty, all loving, all all powerful, all um oh, what's what's the other one I'm missing out? That God is omnipotent, there, omnipotent is all power, omnipotent, omniscient, omniscient, and there's one about where he is everywhere. Umnipresent. So these are all descriptions of God, but they're human descriptions that God is obviously more than what we can just try to define. It might be easier to say what God is not rather than what he is. We can't just confine God to one adjective as such, but it gives us, it leads us in a direction as to how to think of God when we are saying he's almighty, all powerful, etc., etc., etc.

Creation, Knowing God, And Repentance

SPEAKER_06 32:51

I have a similar question to Karen's. Um, I'm still interested in exactly what glorified, but basically, what does that power and presence mean? You said it like creator of the universe, but I was wondering if there's more Greek terms or something else to give a better handle on the presence or the power of God.

Henry Jason 33:15

In Romans chapter one, the apostle Paul talks about how just looking at all of creation, looking at nature and all the works, the acts of that we see in creation as it is creation, the universe or whatever, that we can get a sense of God of this overwhelming spiritual source as creator in looking at it, but that so many human beings, he says there, don't worship him. They sort of uh devolve into worshiping animals and statues and imitations of things because they lost that true sense of what is behind everything they see and feel and touch and hear that our all our senses tell us are out there as physical things. God is a creator of all these physical things, and he's there as a spirit, and he's there as a spirit of love and justice and so many other compassion within this universe of his creation. There is an important non-Christian saying that kind of hits on the same thing. The universe exists for the experiencer to experience it and thus, in that way, become liberated from it. And in a sense, there's a there's a lot of Christian understanding in that, even though it's not a Christian expression, but that we need to get behind and beyond that physical world that we are so much of, that creation, the universe is God's creation, and he created this out of love because he wants creatures like ourselves who have evolved into what we are, to come back to him, to see him through his creation, and to experience him as love, as compassion, as all the other wonderful emotions that we are so fond of and want more of.

SPEAKER_05 35:18

The third one is all knowing.

Henry Jason 35:21

All knowing, yes. Oh, another way, maybe I've thought of this too in the past. Instead of using those adjectives, turn them into nouns. Instead of all knowing, think of all knowledge. Instead of you know, all uh omnipresent, think of all presence and presence in all, in everything. Yeah, you might get a better sense actually if you turn those adjectives into nouns. I should list them all. Maybe I'll do that when on the uh notes when I send them out.

SPEAKER_06 35:50

That was helpful. That was helpful because you know you're trying to figure out you want to be in the presence of God, and you want to be able to get a better handle on it.

Henry Jason 36:02

Yes. You know what uh you'll find in Acts, I think uh, where is that? Acts uh chapter 16, maybe, where Paul is in Athens at the Areopagus, and he says that in him we live and move and have our being. In God, in God the Father, in this divine, eternal, all-powerful, all everything, as we were saying, spirit that we call God, we live, we have our existence, we move, we function, and we have our being, we exist. So we just don't, uh, as those pagans, as Paul was mentioning in first Romans and Romans chapter one, that it's there and it's getting in contact with that. And of course, to be in contact with that, we need to go through a whole process of not being conformed to the world, but being by transforming ourselves and renewing our minds, and that's what true repentance is this transformation in our ways of thinking and then acting and speaking, etc.

Messiah Expectations And Eternal Life

SPEAKER_00 37:08

I'm always interested in seeing the Hebraic scriptural references, um, setting the expectations as to what Messiah would be. So I'm looking at verse 34 when the crowd answers, our law tells us that the messiah will live forever. But when I look at the Bible that has chain cross references, there's nothing there that shows up. So I just maybe it doesn't matter that much, but off the top of your head, perhaps, do you have a recollection of where in the uh Hebrew scriptures they say that Messiah would live forever?

Henry Jason 37:46

No. That's a that's a simple question and answer. Uh, but I mean you you have, I think, two senses of a messiah. One is a more worldly kind of messiah, as so many of the Jews in in Jesus' time were thinking of that would kick out the Romans, the oppressing Romans, and and bring back a worldly kind of state that is God's state, is his kingdom. But there is also this other sense of this messiah and the suffering servant of Isaiah and elsewhere, that is a different kind of messiah, but maybe even more powerful. And that's the the spiritual messiah, God, uh Christ as a redeemer, as a savior. Well, a redeemer is someone who liberates us, liberates us from sin, our sinning, as a savior, someone who saves us. And also that can mean heal, heals the rift between us and God so that we can approach the throne of God. We can approach God in a more deeper way. God is always trying to reveal Himself to us, but we need to really change ourselves. You know, that's a process for some of us, maybe much harder, some than others. I just can speak for myself, but um, there's a real sense there of needing to be a participant in the divine nature, as it says in 2 Peter. That is the goal, to participate in that all-powerful divine nature of God. To become a participant in God's divine nature, that is what's what is beyond that? That verse itself is the goal, is the aim of life. We don't want to just die like dogs, we want to live forever. We want to have eternal life with God. We want to inherit. Inherit means to obtain. We want to obtain eternal life, and this eternal life is union with God, as Jesus says in have we come to it already in chapter, yeah, chapter 10. I and the Father am one, that Jesus had reached that goal in his life, so that the Son and the Father have this complete union, and this is the union we need to work towards ourselves. We we are so different, so many of us from from Jesus, but uh, you know, um he is the model, he is the one that we are to imitate as Christians.

SPEAKER_07 40:25

Well, the early friends have said that you you won't know that by looking at the world. I mean, it might help, and you won't know it by engaging in any of this reasoning. But as we sit in waiting worship and let Christ knock at the door, then if we let him in, then we know through experience his nature and his power.

Quaker Practice And Convincement

Henry Jason 40:42

Yes, but you know, if you go to again verse 19 and chapter three of Revelation, and I'm referring to 19 because people often want to speak about verse 20, but they should also look at verse 19 right before it. I reprove and discipline those whom I love. Christ Jesus' teaching. Be earnest, therefore, and repent. Again, that transformation that is so so important. And early friends were very emphatic about repentance. They use the word convincement and conversion, and convincement being that first appearance of Christ is as maybe not a pleasant experience of Christ the light, enlightening you as to what's wrong with you. If you don't know what's wrong with you, you can't change it, and you need to change and become more Christ-like. And then, of course, in 12, it says here about opening the door to Christ, but you need to repent first and you need to become righteous, upright in God's eyes. I think I could go on with this for another several minutes, but we're already over time. Anyway, am I answering some of that question, Karen?

SPEAKER_03 41:58

Yes, thank you. Henry, could I just mention one thing before we leave? Yes, going back to Jesus riding on the donkey. I read that in Egypt the donkey was a symbol for the god of evil, harm on non-covenant people. And I'm also connecting that back to the talking donkey, you know, um when Balaam kept beating the donkey because it wouldn't move, and the donkey could see the angel of God in front of him, but he was trying to avoid him. And I'm thinking maybe there's something in that that Christ is sitting on all the evil and bad stuff. If Mary, when she rode into uh Jerusalem, when he was first born, rode on a donkey, and if she did, I thought it'd be interesting that he started life and finished his life on a ride with a donkey.

Henry Jason 42:51

Yeah, I I don't know anything about the the Egyptian uh symbolism of donkeys.

SPEAKER_03 42:56

Yeah, but that was interesting.

Henry Jason 42:58

Yeah, but I mean, you know, it was that was that was the base. I mean, we think of horses today as being a beast of burden or whatever, but donkeys' asses were what it was then. So okay, I don't think we're finished with this passage that finished the section I just read. So we will continue with it next time.

SPEAKER_07 43:15

Henry, do we want to stop the recording?

Henry Jason 43:18

Okay, I can f I can stop that. That might be fine. Let's stop that.

Host 43:23

This podcast has been a production of Ohio Yearly Meeting. It was hosted by Henry Jason and edited by Kim Palmer. The introduction and credits were read by Chip Thomas. The quote in our introduction is from the Queries and Advices section of Ohio Yearly Meetings Book of Discipline. A link to that book can be found in the show notes to this episode. We welcome feedback on this or any of our podcast episodes. We can be contacted through our website, Ohio Yearly Meeting.org. org and