Conservative Friends Bible Study of The Gospel of John #25

John 14:18 - 15:11

We slow down over John 14 and the opening of John 15, letting the Greek text sharpen what Jesus means by trust, love, and peace. We also face how translation choices around pronouns and gender can either widen the invitation or allow some people to incorrectly interpret them as being not included.
• The plural “you” in Greek and what it implies for communal and individual life in Christ
• Pisteuo as trust rather than mere belief and why that matters spiritually
• John 14:18-24 on keeping Christ’s word and the indwelling presence of God
• The intrinsic male/female inclusivity of masculine pronouns in biblical Greek regarding gender
• Parakletos as Advocate and Helper, and peace not given like the world gives
• Agape compared with other Greek words for love and what kind of love to which the Gospel points us
• John 15’s vine and branches image, abiding as remaining within, and pruning as purification
• Prayer as alignment with God’s will rather than “asking for favors”

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Transcript

Opening Advice And Worship

Host 0:01

Advice number sixteen be diligent in the reading of the Bible and other spiritually helpful writings. Gather daily in your families for worship. Such times have a special value in bringing little children, especially into the experience of united worship, and so preparing them for a larger meeting for worship as they learn in the silence to bow to the power of God.

John 14 Reading Begins

Henry Jason 0:29

This is the Ohio Yearly Meeting, Greek Bible Study, session number twenty-five, and we are reading the Gospel according to John. We left off in chapter 14 at verse 17. We had begun a little bit after that, but we will begin there at verse 18. Are there any questions or comments from last week?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

This is David. I don't know if we had talked about it before, but I believe that everything he's saying is addressed to the plural, the U plural. Which reminds me that our life in Christ is experienced communally in the congregation, and the promises come to us as we are gathered in his name and power. Doesn't mean we don't have our individual relationship with the divine, but unless there are exceptions that I'm not seeing, it appears that it's all you plural.

Henry Jason 1:29

As far as I can recall, everything is in the plural form here in the Greek when it refers to you. I don't remember the singular. There may be, but I think uh you're right about

Why “Believe” Means Trust

Henry Jason 1:41

that. I do want to get back to one thing I mentioned last week. If you recall this Greek verb pistuo, it most often gets translated as believe, but it basically means to trust, have confidence in, put one's trust in, put one's confidence in. And the noun is similar. Pistis means belief, faith, trust. Well, I said I was wondering about the English word believe and what was its meaning in older English. And I looked that word up. And in old English, the verb believe was belefon, belevan, as it would be pronounced, which meant to believe, but it also meant to trust, which is interesting because that's the word you see, of course, in the early modern English King James Version, uh believe, but the word believe used to mean trust in older English, in old English, especially, the Belavan. So that was an interesting discovery for me.

Not Left Orphaned By Christ

Henry Jason 2:40

Okay, I'm going to begin reading chapter 14, verse 18. As I said, we had already begun some of this. I will not leave you orphaned, I am coming to you. These are the plural use. In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live, you also will live. On that day you will know that I am in my Father, in you in me, and I in you. For they who have my commandments and keep them are those who love me. And those who love me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them. Judas, not Iscariot, said to him, Lord, how is it that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus answered him, Those who love me will keep my word, and my father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words, and the word that you hear is not mine, but is from the Father who sent me.

SPEAKER_09 3:44

In the King James, it's all in the singular. He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of my father, and I will love him.

Henry Jason 3:56

Oh no, no, I'm I was talking about the word you.

SPEAKER_09 3:59

Okay.

Henry Jason 4:00

When David was asking, it's the word you, it's actually the plural.

SPEAKER_09 4:05

The version you were reading had it in the plural, also.

Henry Jason 4:08

Yes, it is okay. Where the word you occurs, it is in the plural. That's all I'm saying. All right.

SPEAKER_09 4:15

Um not only you, but they and those, and uh, you know, they're all the pronouns are in singular in the King James.

Henry Jason 4:27

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. It's the word you rather than the that I think David was talking about.

SPEAKER_09 4:36

Okay, I'm just saying that when you were reading just now, you were using plural pronouns rather than singular.

Henry Jason 4:43

Okay. I will not leave you orphans. I am coming to you. Again, this is these are plural you's, okay, in in the Greek. Yet a little time, and the world no longer, again, this is a word I've talked about before. It's not the usual word for see, it's the word will notice or perceive. The world no longer perceives me, but you see me or you perceive me, you notice me because I am alive, and you, plural, will be living, will be alive. In or on that day, you will know, and that's again the verb that has a sense of experience. You will experience that I am in the father, in my father, and you, plural, are in me, and I in you, plural.

SPEAKER_09 5:37

I don't think it necessarily implies a communal. I think that you can use the plural you and still have it mean each.

Henry Jason 5:47

I think I also would agree with that in what we've just read today, that it's Christ being in us individually or being in you, the people that were being addressed by Jesus in this passage.

SPEAKER_07 6:02

But individually.

Henry Jason 6:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 6:05

That would make sense as a practical matter because people often in the world might not be able to be in a physical community with other people who could worship in a way that was like Christ is describing.

Henry Jason 6:16

Because here we get the singular, this is a participle, the one having, the one having my commands and keeping them. That one is the one loving me, and the one loving me, again, singular will be loved. Agape will be loved by my father, and I will love him, and I will become a parent, I will make myself manifest to him. And Judas says, not the Iscariot, Judas, Lord, what has happened that you are about to make yourself apparent and not to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If someone, if anyone loves me, he will keep my word or my words, and my father will love him, and we will come to him. And we will make a dwelling place, we will make ourselves a dwelling place with him or alongside him. The one not loving me does not keep my words, and the word which you hear is not mine, but rather that of the one who sent

Gendered Language And Greek Grammar

Henry Jason 7:41

me. Lots of participles here. It's really talking about the spirit of Christ within us individually, the light of Christ within.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Is there any significance to the fact that we have a masculine gender here? Uh English repeatedly saying him. Is that strongly indicated in the Greek, or can that be anyone?

Henry Jason 8:06

Okay, let's go back to Greek and Old English, older English. The pronouns in modern English ordinarily reflect gender. However, in older English, Shakespearean English, King James English, English before December 25th, 1968, the masculine included both the male and female. He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone, meant anyone, he or she. Whereas she could only mean the feminine in older English. She was marked for femininity, whereas he was an unmarked linguistic category. And it's just a shorthand way of doing things, so that whenever the masculine was used in older English, it meant both. An actor could and was both a male or a female, whereas actress could only be a female. Man does not live by bread alone, that could be either a male or female, whereas woman was marked for femininity, femaleness or whatever, and it only meant female. That's pervasive throughout the English language. It likewise was pervasive throughout Latin, Greek, Russian, Polish, Lithuanian, and many other European languages. Things have just changed in our generation in English with the insistence that the masculine form only referred to a male. But that was not the case throughout the history of English.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

In the Greek, this this word autos is it gender nonspecific? Is it exclusive?

Henry Jason 9:39

It's grammatically masculine, but it doesn't necessarily mean a male figure only. And that's consistent. Is it the word autos here? Uh yes, it is. Okay. That's consistent throughout all of Greek, and I think it's still true in modern Greek.

SPEAKER_04 9:58

So is the saying, Henry, there was no Greek word that was solely for a male? That there were Greek words for females, but not for males only?

Henry Jason 10:09

We've got two issues going on here. You have grammatical gender and you have natural gender. A male is a male, a female is a female. Grammatical gender is that any given noun in Greek can belong to three noun classes that are traditionally historically called masculine, feminine, and neuter, but it had nothing to do with their actual natural gender. That's the way it has always been. The word for world is grammatically masculine. Let me just look at some words here. The word for word is grammatically masculine. So there's a word for child that is grammatically neuter, and you just go on and on. All the objects are in my room right now, they're all going to be either masculine or feminine or neuter, most likely masculine or feminine, less so neuter. In linguistics, they don't use that word gender because it's too confusing. They talk about noun classes. There are three noun classes. And if it's an actual physical female, it's going to perhaps be associated with one of those noun classes, but that doesn't mean that noun class is female. We're talking here about the problem we have with our native language being such that it breaks up things into those three categories. In other languages, you can have four, or Swahili has what, six or eight different genders. It gets very complex. I think there's some African language, Fulu has 16 grammatical genders. Just the nouns belong to these different categories. And if it's a male or female, it may belong to one or two of those, but it's totally arbitrary. The more common kind of thing you find in languages is a distinction between animate and inanimate. Those are the two very common noun classes. Everything falls into either it's an animate noun or inanimate noun. But then it gets complex because an animate noun might include things like the moon or the sun or the stars because they move and they're considered animate. Water might be considered animate. So it gets complex.

SPEAKER_09 12:12

Weren't there two words for man? Andros was one, and then there was another one, too.

Henry Jason 12:18

Yes. Uh that one I will go to right now and share because this is very clear in ancient Greek. It's changed in modern Greek, but anthropos that is a grammatically masculine noun, and it means a human being, person, a man in its more generic sense. We get the English word anthropology, the study of mankind. And then there is the word that we just mentioned, Pat, aner. The plural is Andres, and that's the word for a man, but specifically only male. And you find both words frequently in the New Testament. Of course, in the King James Version, man would be the translation for both of these. Man in the oldest form of English of a thousand years ago meant anthropos, any human being. Like I said, man does not live by bread alone. These two Greek words are very clear and very distinct as to their meaning.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Let me expand on why I raised the question. I feel that there's a pastoral as well as a theological question at stake here. It concerns me if there are women who read this, and it seems to be addressed just to men, that they can feel excluded or at least questioning whether they are equally included.

Henry Jason 13:44

That's a modern problem in English.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

And I think that one of the things that changed between the revised standard and the new revised standard was taking out implications that things were masculine for that half of the human race that's called male. If you can say they or them instead of him, to go ahead and do that. For some people, this may be a political question, but I see it as a pastoral one.

Henry Jason 14:12

This is a modern problem in modern English of our generation. It wasn't a problem earlier at all. Because I mean, you you read earlier Quaker writings and they use the word man meaning either or, whether it meant a male or it meant everyone, and there wasn't a problem. It was a problem when certain people decided that it can only mean male. And that's where our problems began. Because before that, I know when I'm thinking of reading 19th century Quaker writings and by women, and they're using man all the time, meaning person or human being, as well as all the other earlier forms. And of course, in some other languages, you have you just don't have these distinctions between he and she. Those are just leftovers from an earlier time when it wasn't a natural gender thing. It was grammatical gender. And that's a completely different thing. So that's why, as I said, linguists do not use that term gender. They'll talk about nouns belonging to different noun classes, as otherwise you get this confusion that gets to be oh very frustrating in modern English. So let's continue.

The Advocate And Christ’s Peace

Henry Jason 16:11

Verse 25. I have said these things to you while I am still with you. But the advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, I am going away, and I am coming to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you this before it occurs, so that when it does occur you may believe. Rise, let us be on our way.

“The Father Is Greater”

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yes. What does it mean, greater in the Greek? What verse? 28. For my father is greater than I.

Henry Jason 17:25

I want to see if that has other meanings besides. Hold on a second. It is the word big. It's the normal word for big, bigger, biggest. Megas. If you know the word megas or mega, like omega is the big O. Megus, large, great, big. It also means surprising. Sublime, important, more important than I. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

The statement that the Father is greater than Jesus is not really expanded much upon in Christendom.

Henry Jason 18:05

I know in Philippians chapter 2, where it talks about the humility of Jesus, that he humbled himself, even to the extent to the point of being crucified on a cross in obedience to God. There I think there's a distinction made between the greatness of God the Father and the greatness of Jesus is of a different sort, a different type, because of course Jesus is the Son of Man, the Son of Adam, a son of Adam, a human being.

SPEAKER_09 18:37

I think 12 also has some link to 28. The same phrase is used in both. I go unto my father is said in each one. And also in each one, he uses the word greater. Only in 12 it's he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go unto my father.

Henry Jason 19:07

Yes, that's the same, that's the same comparative form of the adjective meaning big or greater, great.

SPEAKER_09 19:14

And he also says in each one, I go unto my father.

Henry Jason 19:19

Right.

SPEAKER_09 19:20

Or the father.

Henry Jason 19:25

The father is greater than me. As I was saying, one of the translations they gave for this word is important, more important than me. But I think it's it's not a major thing that's being said there, but it is being said. Let me just check one other thing here. 25. We've talked about the paraclete in verse 26. That parakletos that means a helper, an aid, it's a legal term, also translated, just transliterated into English as a paraclete, someone who stands alongside someone in a uh before a magistrate, helping them out with a case. That sort of understanding will remind you of all things, which I see. And then the peace that he gives is not the same as a worldly kind of peace in 27. Don't be bothered, don't be troubled, don't let your heart be troubled, or let it be cowardly. I'm just looking for something. Oh, yes, in verse 30, the ruler of this world, that of course would be Satan, the devil, as understood that evil spirit is the ruler of this world. But he doesn't have anything in me, literally, here. And in verse 31, I do as the father has commanded me, so that the world may know, and this is the world word experience, may experience, the world may experience that I love the father. And as Father commanded me, so I do what he commands me. And then the last thing is arise, rise up, let us go from here.

Notes On John’s Transitions

Henry Jason 21:07

This is an interesting transition here. As I mentioned in the past, it looks at some point when the final edition of the Gospel according to John was being put together, that it was just a mixture of various notes from various times, and in putting them together, they didn't quite put things in sequence or whatever, or there was no easy transition from putting some notes together with the following notes. Because if we go to verse 15, verse 1, in 1431, Jesus is saying, get up, arise. This is the verb that also means resurrect, of course. Rise up, get up, stand up. Let's go from here. And then the next verse, they haven't left, they're still continuing. Anything else in chapter 14?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

I was just gonna say that I um I like this part where. Where Jesus says, I do not give to you as the world gives, which is a separate sentence in my translation. Makes me wonder what kind of peace that the world gives people, and thinking about how much greater the peace that we receive from Christ is. I think about the love that we're offered is so much greater than the love that the world offers us. Sometimes I think about the love the world offers us is kind of like based on merit. We're love because somebody here thinks we're worthy because we have the right job or the right position in society, or for some other kind of reasons like that. But Jesus offers us a love that's in spite of all these things. I guess it just makes me wonder what the peace that Jesus offers us.

Henry Jason 22:47

Right. Elsewhere it's mentioned, uh, I can't recall the citation, the uh that he gives us the peace that surpasses understanding, that certain type of peace of mind that is really the Sabbath, that rest. Sabbath is the Hebrew word for rest, and that is the rest that we are to enter into. I'm assuming this is the same kind of peace that we're talking about here. Sabbath is a Naposis in Greek, and it's a word that's found fairly frequently in early Christian writings. It's almost the equivalent of the kingdom of God. It's something to be sought, something to enter into, the Sabbath rest. You know, it again it goes back to God creating the universe and then rested. Also, I just in in talking about this

Agape Love Beyond Sentiment

Henry Jason 23:36

word love. Have I talked about the fact that English has a very general word love? We also have a word like, but ancient Greek had several words for love. I think I've talked about that.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Yeah, these mention it like agape.

Henry Jason 23:50

Yes, that's the word that's being used here in the verb form, and then there's the word philia, and also starge, and also eros. Agape is the word being used here, and that's this love that's so often is translated as unconditional love. But it really has that sense of the kind of love you would want to have, the kind of love you should have is the kind of love you would want from others, like in the golden rule kind of love. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That's what I've been told was the basic meaning in the first century. Philia, like in Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love, this is the kind of love you have for friends. Storge is the kind of love you have for family members, wife, and children. And Eros is the word for sexual love. So you have several different words in Greek for love. And these are just the uh noun forms, but in English we just have this general word love, but we also have a watered-down form of it, like, meaning similar, but not as strong as love.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

I would mention that when I was a high schooler, my uh parents took a college group to Chicago to hear Martin Luther King give a sermon, and I went along with them, and it made quite an impression on me that he unpacked three of those four Greek words for love, differentiating what he was calling for in terms of a principle of nonviolent resistance and not retributive against those who were persecuting them. And he wanted to take it beyond the sentimental sense of love toward something that was Christ-like and that was forgiving and that took pain and suffering upon oneself rather than inflicting it. The things that Paul discusses in 13th um 1 Corinthians. It has touched me all these years that it's important to know these underlying richer dimensions of the English word love as it is used here.

SPEAKER_06 25:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 25:58

It seems that none of these four versions of love match what we might think God feels for us or hope that God feels for us. And isn't that why we might think that his love is different from any of these loves?

Henry Jason 26:11

Well, I think the word that is used consistently when it's saying God loves us, as it's saying here, is the verb form of agape, which I do not think is ever used in a sentimental sense. I can't think of any case. Whereas you could probably say that of some of the other words there.

SPEAKER_07 26:31

Even if we are using one of these four words, that's just because you have to use some word. So that doesn't necessarily mean that God's love for us maybe most resembles this, but it doesn't mean that that's what God's love is like.

Henry Jason 26:45

Yeah, it resembles. Obviously, the creator loves what he makes.

SPEAKER_07 26:52

And then in what David was saying about peace, I peace for us the peace that the world gives is dependent on what's happening to us in our lives generally. But the peace that God can give us or that Christ can give us is independent of that. Any terrible thing can be happening to us, but we can still have Christ's peace because of God's love.

SPEAKER_06 27:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 27:16

These seem to be only shadows of God's love and peace.

Henry Jason 27:20

I'm just looking up the word erene, which is the word love here, means a state of concord, peace, harmony, a state of well-being, peace. According to the prophets, peace will be an essential characteristic of the messianic kingdom. Sumum bonum in Latin. Oh, Christian thought also frequently regards irene, peace, as nearly synonymous with messianic salvation. Proclaim peace. Proclaim peace, that is messianic salvation, is what you should be preaching or proclaiming.

SPEAKER_09 28:01

I think that when we don't feel peace, we feel somewhat fragmented or something is missing, something we need, and the peace that God provides us with is fullness and wholeness and perfection, so that regardless of what is attacking us in the world or depriving us in the world, or in some way harming us or fragmenting us, that peace of God is so powerful and whole that it supersedes anything that can happen to us in the world. It's more powerful than what the world aims at us.

Henry Jason 28:45

Yes, there's something in one of the gospels Jesus is talking about, just trying to think of how it goes now. He's saying, in terms of someone who could kill you, beware of someone who not only kills the body, but also the soul, can destroy both body and soul.

SPEAKER_09 29:01

And that's the kind of peace someone can have, or our aim is to have that peace that is that peace in both cases, that God is we're feeling it so that we are not so afraid of someone who can destroy our bodies, or our dignity, or our reputation, or any of those things that we feel that we need in the world and need to protect. The love and peace of God is so powerful that we can accept those losses and not be rattled by them serene in that peace.

Henry Jason 29:40

William Dewsbury, I think I mentioned here once before, somewhere wrote that his prison keepers could only keep him in prison as long as it was the will of God and no longer. That God always had the final say. And it gave him a certain peace that his tormentors, his keepers just didn't have that power, that same power that God had, and that he was in peace. He clearly was in deep, deep peace.

SPEAKER_09 30:07

And Jesus said the same thing to Pilate, I think, that he couldn't do anything to him if that power had not been given to him by God.

Henry Jason 30:17

Right. It's a deep, deep faith, and I think out of that deep faith is a deep peace. This peace that surpasses understanding. It's not conditional in terms of what someone can or cannot do to an individual.

SPEAKER_09 30:33

I think of it sort of like the power of the sun. Anything you throw at the sun is immediately going to burn up because it's going to be so overwhelmed by that power.

Henry Jason 30:44

Yeah. Okay, let's go on.

Vine And Branches Abiding

Henry Jason 30:48

I'm going to read through verse 11. We may not finish that section today, but I'll read through it. This is chapter 15, verse 1. I am the true vine, and my father is the vine grower. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me, you can do nothing. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers. Such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my father's commandments and abide in his love. I have said these things to you, so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. Again and again this word abide occurs, and the basic meaning of that Greek word is remain or stay or continue. It's an ordinary word in English in Greek. We don't often use the word abide in English. It's not one of your top 100 words in vocabulary, but it just means remain, continue, stay. You get the general idea there.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

And we have a question about one of the words that appears in different forms, uh catharos and catharos.

Henry Jason 32:58

Catharos means pure and at the adjective. That's pure.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

We have the word cathartic, it's an adjective, clean, also pure.

Henry Jason 33:15

And it also has a sense of kosher, it's a kosher food, okay? Clean or pure. The uh noun is similar, cathar catharizo. In terms of talking about a plant or a tree, it can mean to prune. So you're cleaning off or purifying the plant, the tree, by cutting off those branches you don't think are productive. That's what you have here. But it basically says you need to remain in that spirit of Christ. That spirit of Christ needs to be in you and you need to be obedient to it, you need to be in alignment with it. But also removing that without him you can do nothing. And that's the second time we've seen that. I'm sorry, David. What was that?

SPEAKER_00 34:03

The pruning sense, removing that which is useless or harmful. It's a negative to get to the positive.

Henry Jason 34:12

Yeah, okay. Also, what it says here, I'm just trying to find the verb, the sentence in the um, yes, in in verse six, those uh that are dried up, they gather them, and into the fire they throw them, and they are burned. The fire is often the sense of total extinction, total annihilation. Whenever you see that term, like fire, the fires of hell or whatever, we're talking about that aspect of this word poor fire, but also it can mean to separate what is a good metal from what it isn't. Uh, so it has those two senses, similar kind of thought in separating the goats from the sheep, same idea. And again, in verse 7, we've talked about this in the past. If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask for whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. That will be if it's in accord with God's will, if it's in alignment with what is God's will. Any other comments here or questions?

Prayer Needs Not Wish Magic

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Well, Henry, I was just thinking about it. Kind of strikes me reading it this time because you know, you often hear Quakers talk about how Christ is within us. So now reading this with friends, I'm also really struck by um he remains in us, but we also need to remain in him, perhaps by staying open-hearted to hearing his words that he's speaking to us. And then when I read the part, he remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. I kind of feel like we're all in different situations and different places with different people in our lives. You know, Jesus is speaking to me, but what I need to ask of might be different than what somebody else in a different situation might need to ask. So it seems to be, I guess because just because I'm thinking, you know, it's it's an individual asking for something. If there seems to be like a flexibility there, I suppose, and what Christ can do in the world. I get maybe I'm sounding kind of confused, but I I can see how Christ is is speaking to me here, and but then I have to, I'm looking around me and I'm my heart is going out in some way asking something.

Henry Jason 36:44

I don't know if that makes sense, but um I think I can understand what he's saying because I have those kinds of feelings myself. There are times when there's just a human part of me that is asking for something, and I'm not actually thinking what I'm really asking for. Sometimes you may get your wish fulfilled and you don't want it fulfilled when you find out what the results of that is. And I think there's something deeper being said here about the true wanting of something. I mean, as soon as we say, you know, I want something, there's something of myself in it, but how much of myself and what part of myself is it that wants that? Is that the deeper spiritual side of me? Or is that a more human animal side that wants something? That's a question that needs to be asked.

SPEAKER_08 37:36

I'm thinking of it in terms of God being aware that our needs will be met even though we don't ask for it, sort of like the mana that came after Exodus. People needed to be fed, and they were. And it wasn't because they sat down and asked for a specific thing, but they knew that they needed food, and food was provided. And I think it may be in that same vein, at least that's what's come to me today, that the same kind of confidence that God will provide for us as we need it, not what we want necessarily, but what we need. That's what I took from it.

Henry Jason 38:19

Well, there's that whole passage in the uh Sermon on the Mount saying God knows what we need. He knows what the birds of the field, the lilies, what other creatures need and are taken care of. I think sometimes with our addictive natures, we sometimes want so much more than what we should be wanting. In some ways, I think the parts of us may be bottomless pits or bottomless abysses needing to be filled. We think it's something material, something physical, something worldly, when the only thing that will satisfy us is God and not some material creature.

SPEAKER_07 38:57

If we're hoping to be as much like Christ as possible and have Christ working through us, then we should hope what Christ would want.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

On verse 7, I find it powerful that the first clause is quite conditional if you abide in me and my words in you. And I think that that takes us beyond some of the magical thinking and activity that I've seen that people think they can conjure up special favors. But all of this is saying what will happen when we are dwelling in Christ, not whether we use certain words. I don't know if others are as bothered as I am by those under religious guides who want to do magical things.

Henry Jason 39:52

Whatever you may want, ask for, and it will happen for you or to you. It will happen, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:02

Um I think a lot of people who are maybe to us seeming to be doing magical thinking really know perfectly well that that's what they're doing, but they're desperate. And I don't feel it doesn't bother me that they're doing it. I just feel that it's unfortunate that it I wouldn't judge by that.

Henry Jason 40:19

Well, it's a problem, a more general problem of the nature of prayer. So many people out there think that prayer is basically asking for things from God. I mean, you get that general sense that that's their first understanding of what it means to pray, to beg God for things, to ask God for things, you know, gimme, gimme, gimme. God is this Santa Claus in the sky kind of thing, unfortunately. It's such a narrow understanding of God that I don't know where you go with that.

SPEAKER_07 40:47

But many of them know that, but they're just many don't know that.

Henry Jason 40:50

Many don't are not aware of a greater God than that.

Translating Abide As Dwell Within

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Phillips translated that verse 7 if you live your life in me, and my words live in your heart.

Henry Jason 41:06

I I would keep it remain, if you remain in me, because you're getting a spiritual sense here. If you live, that's I I think you're stretching it a little bit, and I don't think that's what it's actually saying here. Because it is the word remain or abide or stay.

SPEAKER_09 41:23

If you stay in me, in my spirit, if you remain in my spirit, I I think live, I mean it's it's close, but I think that the word inhabit must have some connection to the word abide. Do you know that that it does? I think that because in Italian the word to live meaning to inhabit is abitare. Seems very similar to abide. And inhabit seems like an English version of it. So inhabit means to live, but it it's not as comprehensive as the word to live.

Henry Jason 42:00

It means to it's like the word stay in English. You stay in something, stay in a place, you're inhabiting that place.

SPEAKER_09 42:08

Or residing or residence, residing, yeah. Dwell.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Dwell is the word that is rendered in in new English Bible that friends had a part in translating, use the word dwell.

Henry Jason 42:20

Yeah, the word dwell in dwelling in my father's house. There are many, and then monai, dwelling places, or places where you stay. It's a very general word, and we don't quite have an exact translation because it's a very loose word. It's it's where anyone stays for a while or a day or whatever. It's many dwelling places, many places. Um you get that sense.

Final Comments And Next Month

Henry Jason 42:43

Okay, I'm seeing it's late, so I think we probably need to stop there for today. Any last uh comments or questions?

SPEAKER_00 42:51

One more translation I'm looking at. Today's English version on verse four, remain united to me. I think that has the spiritual dimension to it.

Henry Jason 43:02

Yeah, but it's missing the whole point of in within, remain in me. And I think that's a very Quaker understanding. Remain in me, in my spirit. Stay in my spirit. I mean, you you kind of lose it with that kind of translation. You don't see that inwardness that's so important. Okay, good. All right, so um, we will meet again next month and uh go from there where we are here. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 43:34

Thanks, Henry. Thank you, everyone.

Credits And How To Reach Us

Host 43:39

This podcast has been a production of Ohio Yearly Meeting. It was hosted by Henry Jason and edited by Kim Palmer. The introduction and credits were read by Chip Thomas. The quote in our introduction is from the Queries and Advices section of Ohio Yearly Meeting's Book of Discipline. A link to that book can be found in the show notes to this episode. We welcome feedback on this or any of our podcast episodes. We can be contacted through our website, OhioUningMeeting.org.