Conservative Friends Bible Study of The Gospel of John #28

John 17:1-19

We walk slowly through John 17 and let the Greek sharpen what Jesus is praying for as he speaks about glory, authority, eternal life, and unity. We connect word studies like doxa, exousia, parousia, logos, cosmos, and hagiadzo to Quaker concerns about the presence of Christ, the true church, and being sent into the world without being shaped by it.
• Heaven as sky and as spiritual reality in the Greek word ouranos
• Glory and glorify as honor and as God’s manifested presence linked to shekinah
• Eternal life defined as knowing and experiencing the only true God
• Authority exousia as right, power, domain, and sphere of rule
• Parousia as presence and why translating it as coming can mislead
• Christ and the logos in relation to creation and pre-existence
• Cosmos as creation, humanity, and worldliness depending on context
• name as essence and character, not only a label
• unity as Jesus’s repeated prayer and a warning against sectarianism
• Sanctify hagiadzo as set apart, purified, and made holy in a Hebrew sense
• Quaker language of being favored and grace charis as divine favor, not flattery

The quote in our introduction was paraphrased from the Eleventh Proposition of Barclay's Apology. 

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Transcript

Welcome And Session Context

Henry Jason 0:02

This is the OIM Greek Bible study. We are reading the Gospel according to John, and this is session number 28. We left off at the very end of chapter 16.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

In the Gospel of John.

Henry Jason 0:18

Let's begin with verse 1 through 5 of 17. After

Reading John 17:1 To 5

Henry Jason 0:24

Jesus had spoken these words, he looked up to heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all people to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, in Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

Heaven As Sky And Glory

Henry Jason 1:04

Just a comment, I don't know if anyone recalls, but this word uranos in Greek is the Greek word that means sky, and it's also the word that means heaven. So you have an outward physical meaning, uranos means sky, the physical sky, but it also can mean heaven, which is not physical, an inward spiritual state. That word also gives us the English word Uranus, the name of the planet. That's where we borrowed that word from. So when Jesus looked up to heaven here, he's he's looking up towards the sky, all right, at the same time. That's probably the better translation. He says in the next part of verse one, glorify your son. Now I've talked about this word because this occurs several times here, and I want to just put it down here because we get these two words glory and glorify. That's a verb that we're translating as glorify, which basically means to clothe in splendor, that sort of thing, and also to praise, honor, and extol. That's the basic kind of meaning. We often translate it as glorify, to um praise, extol. But you know the noun I've talked about a number of times in the past here, doxa means glory. Importantly, oftentimes is the translation of the Hebrew that is shekinah, which is the manifested presence of God, and of course, it has other meanings too. For instance, brilliance. And I think we also mentioned uh it also means what was it, honor? Yes, and other meanings as well. Honor, esteem. But this second meaning I put down here, Shekinah, the manifested presence of God in something somewhere, in a physical place. That is often the meaning that we need to understand here when we are looking at this word that gets translated as glory. And in the same sense, when we have this verb to glorify, to praise, to extol, it might be very wise and clear to understand that there are times when we're talking about the manifested presence of God, glorify your name, make known, manifest yourself in your power, is perhaps what that can be best translated as manifest your glorify your name, or may your name be glorified, may your basic nature, your divine power be made ever to us in something or in somewhere. Okay, when we get to the next verse here, I'm sorry, the hour has come, glorify your son, manifest your presence in your son, or praise your son, or extol your son. I mean, we can understand that verb here in different ways, perhaps meaning several of them at the same time, that the son may glorify you, that the son may make manifest your presence. And then in verse 2, as you gave him authority over all flesh, and this is where I have difficulty with the grammar here, that all or that everything, but it's not a plural, but everything which you have given him, he may give to others eternal life, understanding that he may give eternal life to others, which is that which he gave to Jesus. That makes sense to me. Okay, and then in verse three, this is a very important verse because it is a definition of eternal life, and this is eternal life, this is the life of the ages, quote, that they may

Eternal Life Defined As Knowing

Henry Jason 5:04

know you, that they may experience you, the only true God, the only real God, and Him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ, Jesus the Anointed One. So, what he is defining here is what eternal life means. Of course, throughout this gospel, he's using the word life and eternal life, which in the other gospels is so often referred to as the kingdom of God, and in Matthew, mostly as the kingdom of heaven, because in Matthew he's still hesitant about using the word God in various constructions or phrases. So he uses the word heaven to mean God. It's important even in modern Judaism, especially among the more conservative and Orthodox, they'll refer to God simply as the name, the name with a capital N instead of just saying God.

Authority Exousia And Presence Parousia

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Henry, can we back up one verse? I'm curious about the word that is translated authority, and I just wonder what more depth we might have on that uh exusia.

Henry Jason 6:17

Exusia, okay. Yeah, this comes up all the time. There was a big discussion in a Bible group last fifth day, uh Thursday evening, uh, ecumenical Bible group, and it had to do with Romans, where Paul is talking about uh obeying the authorities. Let me get to that. It's a very common word here. Exusia, authority. I want to just look up and see what else that uh word, if that word can be translated in some other ways. The root of that word, you see the letters O U, that is a root, a verbal root that just means to be, to exist. Um Exosia, uh freedom of choice, a right, capability, might, power, the right to control or command, authority, absolute power, warrant. So quite a few related meanings here. Official power, ruling power, power exercised by rulers or others in high position by virtue of their office. It can also mean human authorities, officials, government. It means the sphere in which power is exercised, a domain. So you get that whole cluster of meanings with this word. So it's kind of a broad word in Greek to refer to the authority an authority has, it's his domain, and where that authority is exercised. It's just the freedom of choice, the right to do something in terms of that kind of authority. Let me also give you a couple of other related words here. There's this word parousia. David, are you are you familiar with parousia? It means presence. And apusia means absence. So often you get this translation about the coming of the Lord, and the word isn't really coming, the word is presence. Parousia means presence, and in all these three words here, that root is oo, which means to be, to exist. Ap is away from and par is alongside, and x is out of. But we're talking about a certain kind of existence or being here. Parousia, I think scholars talk about the parousia, the coming of the Lord, but it's really the accurate translation would be the presence of the Lord. Uh, and I'm just want to make that point here. Earlier friends would use both words, presence and coming, but in actuality, the word is presence. There are various reasons why coming is used, but I think they are less accurate, especially as friends have understood the coming of the Lord is the presence of the I would note that in the Adventist tradition uh in which I grew up, I mean, I didn't follow it all, but they they were the ones who sponsored the college where my mom taught.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

But they were always invoking this word parousia. It uh was very clearly about an event that they were expecting could happen anytime. So for them it meant the second coming in a physical manifestation. And I'm glad to know that it's not confined to that.

Henry Jason 9:36

So often people talk about this as, you know, like the end of the world kind of thing, whereas friends have traditionally not understood it that way at all. The advent or the coming or the presence of the Lord is something we should be working towards, something we should be purifying ourselves, cleaning ourselves, repenting, and looking towards this coming actually through a holy life, in addition to the waiting worship that we do. I have to say, even if you look at early Christian writings, this seems to be a mixture there of people seeming to understand it as some kind of physical coming at the end of time, or, and again, especially with this Gospel of John, as something that is to be realized now in our lives, not some kind of coming of the Lord at the end of our lives or the end of the world, but that this is the whole focus, uh, this is the revelation of the Lord. Uh, I'm just trying to think of what the Greek word is for coming. I'm I'm blanking out on it at the moment. I think it's elphasis. I'll have to check on this and correct it. But again, when you're reading most of your translations in English, the New Testament, when you see the word coming, it's probably this word parocia, which means presence. Oh, the verb parimi means to be present. To be present, and to be absent is apumi. I just wanted to mention all of these because this really distinguishes Quakers from many of the more mainstream Christian denominations. Apemi, be present, apusia, parami, parusia, exusia. Okay. So again, this definition of eternal life is something now, it's not only something in the future, and that's why we have in verse three here eternal life is this present tense, that they know, they experience you, the only true or real God, and him who you have sent, i.e. Jesus Christ, Jesus the anointed one. Okay, let's go on to verse four. I have glorified you on earth, having finished the work which you had have given me that I should do. So I have extolled you or I have made known your presence by what I have done. Maybe both at the same time in terms of this Greek verb. And then in verse 5, and now you glorify me, glorify me, imperative mood, father, along with yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

Henry, do we have any evidence in the other gospels or maybe in the Pauline writings of this claim which is laid out in the prologue of the Gospel of John and repeated here about being present in creation? Is it unique to the Johannine tradition and looking back 40

Christ Before The World Existed

SPEAKER_01 13:06

or 50 years?

Henry Jason 13:08

What is in Only John?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Well, there's uh let's see if I can find it here about being present in the creation, which um is part of the uh the prologue of the Gospel of John.

Henry Jason 13:23

That was my question. I'm not sure what you're referring to in the prologue.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Oh, I guess the first 18 verses of chapter one that the logos was part of creation, and Christ as the logos was um oh first, I think, is what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 13:46

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Henry Jason 13:52

This was a huge theological battle that was going on for ages among early Christians and later as to the role of the word of God, the utterance of God, the mind of God, wisdom of God, this um not of the world, but in the world. I'm still not clear what it is that you're asking me. That's why I'm a little fuzzy about answering.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

I guess I'm wondering whether this particular equation and claim is referenced anywhere other than in the Johannine writings of the I guess.

Henry Jason 14:29

And you know, what I've read here and there in early Christian writings, you often have mention made of the word of God. Again, not referring at all to the Bible, but to the word of God that is in us. And speaking of the word of God in us, it's clear at times that we are talking about the spirit of Christ, which is in everyone, potentially as a seed. But at the same time, I think there are other times when it's maybe broader than that, but I'm trying to think of any place where I can say more about that. It was an important understanding that the word is in us. Again, word is not the best translation for this Greek word logos, the utterance of God, the statement of God, the reasoning of God, uh, that both mental and more verbal, those are the two aspects of this word. So that there were just so many arguments over this and the various councils that occurred in those few centuries and all the battles that took place in Nicaea, the Council of Nicaea in 325.

SPEAKER_05 15:36

I think David is asking something else. I think he's asking about does verse five refer to the creation and Christ being with God before the creation.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah, yeah.

Henry Jason 15:52

Well, that's what I'm thinking. Uh, you have to understand. I mean, that living spirit of Christ is eternal, has always been there before and during. That's how I've always understood it. And that, you know, that is the the the word and in the prologue. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Uh, and even saying it was with is not the right word in Greek, it doesn't usually mean with, it was in the presence of God or alongside God or something like that. And the word, and that and the word was divine. So God expressing himself is still that divine entity.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

And I'm not questioning the truth of that claim. I'm just wondering if we find it anywhere else in the scriptures other than in this late written gospel.

Henry Jason 16:46

Yeah, I just think it's in the Johannine writings, but then you get these kinds of references in some early Christian writings where it seems to be that, you know, especially in the Johannine communities, uh, which probably existed in Turkey, but eventually they got united with the other communities. But you do have this mention of paying attention to the word of God within us.

SPEAKER_05 17:08

I'm wondering about verse five also in the use of the word world, he says, which I had with thee before the world was, and thinking that world doesn't refer to recreation, but it might be used in the same way it is used in the previous chapter in verse 33. I have overcome the world, meaning fleshly uh carnal existence.

Henry Jason 17:40

I've brought this up sometime in the past that this word with their other words that get translated as world too, you know, thesis, creation or world, but this is cosmos, k-os-mo-s, and it does have that sense of the physical world, the universe. Actually, it's related to the English word cosmetics, the same root. The verb means to adorn things.

SPEAKER_05 18:03

Are you are you talking about verse 33 using the word cosmos for world? It's the same word. What about verse five?

Henry Jason 18:13

Five and three have the same word, cosmos. And flesh, and it does have and it does mean world, it can mean worldliness, it can refer to the people of the world, people in general, and also has that sense of worldly people, uh, worldly minded people. So it depends on the context as to just let me see, world, worldliness, people in general, worldly-minded people. It depends on the context as to what you're referring to.

SPEAKER_05 18:48

When he says, which I had with me before the world was, could it not mean temporally, but in terms of um the legitimacy of heavenly existence on earth as opposed to fallen existence?

Henry Jason 19:07

The Greek here is it's not a past tense in Greek, it's an infinitive to exist. The glory with which or how I had before the double the the the world to be alongside you is what it says literally. Again, exist, it's it's not a tense, there's no tense here, it's the existence of the world, the existing world, the world existing without a sense of time there. That's a common kind of Greek construction here. The before obviously implies time, though, for us.

SPEAKER_05 19:44

It doesn't mean precedence in terms of legitimacy.

Henry Jason 19:49

Precedence in terms of legitimacy. I think it's just referring to the eternity of Christ, not just in time, but outside of time. And that's how I would take it. Uh, don't think I could take it any other way. All right. Let's

Cosmos As World And Worldliness

Henry Jason 20:08

go on. Um, I think I'll read through 19, but I don't know if we'll get through all this. I have made your name known to those whom you have gave me from the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything you have given me is from you. For the words that you gave to me, I have given to them, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from you, and they have believed that you sent me. I am asking on their behalf. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. Already I want to say here, already world, we're getting in different senses. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I have been glorified in them. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one as we are one. Okay, I think I'm gonna stop there because we got a lot to look at here. I manifested your name, I have made manifest your name,

Name Logos And Rhema

Henry Jason 21:28

your power. You know, Anama is the word for name, but it refers to again so much more of the basic character of something, the essence of something. So I have manifested your essence, I have made evident your name, your power to men, to the people whom you gave to me out of the world. Again, the world out of the world, and what if you recall the word for church is ecclesia. Which is the word that gets translated as church, but it means those who are called out of the church. Out of the world. I'm sorry, out of the world. Yes. They belonged to you and to me. You gave them, and they have kept your word. Now, this word again is logos, but if you remind remember what I've said again and again, Lagos can refer to anything said. So all your words, everything you've said, verbal expression, a speech. So they have kept your words, your logos, what you've told them. Now they have known, they have experienced, they've known that everything, plural, everything whatsoever you have given me are from alongside you. And then because the words, now this is actually that's a different word. This is Rhema, that means actually words, a word, a real word, because the words which you gave me, I have given to them, and they received them or they accepted them, and knew truly that I came out of, I came forth from alongside you. And they have believed they have confidence, they've had confidence that you sent me. They have that trust that you sent me. That's the word for belief or faith, either confidence or trust that yes, uh, I, Jesus, have been sent by God. Okay, let me go back and read the verse nine. I am not asking on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those whom you gave me, because they are yours. Again, this is much broader sense of world, people. I concerning them am asking, not concerning the world, I am asking, but rather concerning the ones you have given me, not the world in general, but these specific ones, because they belong to you. And all my things, all my stuff, just general, are yours, and all yours are mine, and I have been glorified in them. Is that clear? This whole chapter is difficult. Verse 11. And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you, and no longer am I in the world, but they are still in the world, and I am going to you. Okay, holy father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one as we are one. Holy Father, keep them, guard them in your name, in your power, in your essence, which you have given me, in order that they may be one like we are.

Protect Them And Pray For Oneness

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Henry, I have a comment on that very last phrase. It's one that's been dear to my heart for eons in the Latin, it's uh ut omnes unum sent that they may be one. It has been used as a motto of um the YMCA for which I once worked, and I think has been used by the World Council of Churches. I've noted that in this chapter, Jesus prays for unity of his followers four different times. It's not only in verse 11, but twice in verse 21. And in verse 23, he prays that we may be completely one. So it really was on his mind that we are prone to factionalism or controversy or sectarianism, and I believe that is not the will that Christ had for us as a community, even though that is our tendency, it's our temptation, it's been manifest in history all the way through. But I come back to this prayer as the guidance for how we should function. And whenever we're tempted to get sectarian or one faction to triumph over another, that is not the divine will.

Quaker Unity And The True Church

Henry Jason 27:02

You know, this has come up in a couple of other meetings recently. I've been in Zoom meetings regarding unity. And we were just reading last night, uh, the new foundation fellowship reading of Epistle 46, I think it was, where Fox is talking about unity being one, as well as talking about the light of Christ, as understanding it there, and also what Robert Barclay and his Apology for the True Christian Divinity in the section on the ministry. I'm forgetting what part was that? Was that uh 10, I think. 10, 2 or 9, 2, section two. There are there are several paragraphs. I read one long paragraph, but there are three or four paragraphs where he talks about the true church, the real church known only to God. And those are the people who are in that spirit of the Lord, the spirit of Christ, regardless of where they are, who they are, whether they've ever even heard of Jesus Christ, because it's not been made known to them, or maybe they lived even before Christ Jesus lived, but they are aware in some way of that spirit, and they are doing their total best in obeying, in listening to that spirit and following it. And that is the true church. Now, when some of those people have found themselves like the early friends, that gathered church then becomes a reality in a physical kind of church, as well as all those who are unknown to each other, maybe at various times, but then realize that they are in that very spirit. And that true unity is only in having in being in union with that same divine spirit of Christ, that light of Christ within, the Holy Spirit, regardless of what people say externally, outwardly about themselves. What matters is this unity of minds, of spirit. So I would strongly recommend, David, you you read that section in uh Robert Barclay. It's it's the proposition, I think it's nine, or maybe I Pat thought it was 10 on the ministry, and I think it was section two. I'll put it down in the notes when I send out the notes today or tomorrow, anyway. It's a very important section to read. And he and Barclay is saying exactly the same thing, but even in more detail than uh Fox is saying in Epistle 46. 46, too. I mean, you're just getting the same thing, the understanding of what the true church is, the gathered church, the Catholic Church, meaning Catholic in its original sense of the universal church, the real church. Not what people say that they are a Christian church, but the church known to God, the real church. It's a very important section that kind of gets overlooked, or I think people might feel uncomfortable about it because they'd rather pay attention to their more external denomination and what they're saying. God is understanding may be a bit different. Okay.

Judas And Scripture Fulfilled

Henry Jason 30:16

Uh, verse 12. Let's see here. While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me. I guarded them, and not one of them was lost, except the one destined destined to be lost, so that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you and I speak these things in the world so that they may have my joy made complete in themselves. So when I was with them, I was keeping them in your name. I was keeping them in your power, your existence. I'm not sure how to call that here, which you had given me. And I watched over them, and nobody of them perished, nobody has perished except the son of perdition, in order that the scripture be fulfilled, completed. I am now coming to you, and these things I am speaking in the world that they may have my joy, which has been fulfilled in themselves, that they may have in themselves my joy, which has been completed, fulfilled.

SPEAKER_05 31:34

Does anyone know what the scripture is that he's referring to in 12?

Henry Jason 31:40

Let me see. Uh, in 12, hold on. Well, that's interesting. I don't have a reference for that here. I can't think of any verse that that would refer it to, unless it was some Jewish writing that didn't make it into the final canonical Hebrew Bible.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

My Bible references Psalms 41. And the sixth chapter of John, verse 70.

Henry Jason 32:07

That's what 41-9 was that, Nancy?

SPEAKER_04 32:09

41-9. Yeah, 41-9 Psalms.

SPEAKER_05 32:12

Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Oh. I thought this was referring to Judas Iscariot. Yes, that's what I thought. And it's and it says in John earlier that Satan entered into him.

SPEAKER_04 32:37

Yeah, that's the other reference was John 6, verse 70. And Jesus answered them, Have I not chosen you 12, and one of you is a devil?

Henry Jason 32:49

I don't ever recall 41.9 in Psalms uh being pointed out as a reference to Judas, though. I can't recall seeing that before.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

I mean, it may apply to it may apply to somewhere else in verse 12. It's just those two references at the end of the verse.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah. I also get a cross-reference in the chain linking to Psalm 41:9. Eve, even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me. And that's pretty clearly Judas.

Henry Jason 33:28

Yes, it's important also to remember, I've said this in the past, that Judas, in terms of holding the money box, would have held a very high position then among the 12 apostles. That would have put him a bit above many of the others, that he would have been trusted with that. 14. I have okay, 14. I want to read 14 now. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. I have given

Not Of The World Yet Sent

Henry Jason 34:04

them your word, your words or your what you've said to me, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just like I am not of the world. 15. I am not asking you to take them out of the world, but I ask you to protect them from the evil one. I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but in order that you preserve them, keep them from the evil one. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:38

14 and 15 use the word world differently. 14 meaning a spiritual condition, and 15 meaning physical condition.

Henry Jason 34:50

Yes. Exactly. I mean, this word world is used in several senses throughout. I think we need to be just aware of that. And I said, cosmos is related to cosmel. The verb cosme means to adorn something, to put something on something. And the universe is something that's been out there and it's uh it's looked at as sort of our the adornments that we are living in. Kind of an interesting Greek understanding, but uh yeah, cosmetics, uh cosmetic is uh that same root. All right, let me go into 16.

Sanctify And The Meaning Of Holy

Henry Jason 35:26

Let's see if we can maybe finish through 19 here. They do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world. Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. Okay, make them holy in the truth. Uh, your word, your logos, your uh what you verbalize, what you say, what you express is truth. Okay, again, that word logos means anything that's that's verbalized or spoken or expressed or uttered, what you express is truth, and then in 18, as you have sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world, as you have sent me into the world, so uh I also have sent them into the world, and then finally in 19, and for their sakes I sanctify myself so that they also may be sanctified in truth, and on their behalf I make myself holy, I sanctify myself in order that they also may be made holy in truth, maybe I see several other renderings for this verb um hagiatso, consecrated in one version and dedicated in another. Yeah, I want to look that up. I know it has all these meanings, and of course, if you remember what hagias means in Greek and what it meant in the original Hebrew, holy is separate from the world, it's not profane, it's not part of the world. When you sanctify something, when you sanctify an offering, make it holy, your understanding is no longer part of the world, the physical world. And I think you've got to keep that Hebrew understanding here. I think it it really is appropriate here. Let me just see if there's anything else I can see in looking up the word right now, hagiadzo, to set something or make it suitable for ritual purposes, consecrate, to include a person in the inner circle of what is holy in both cultic and moral associations of the word, to dedicate, consecrate, to treat as holy, to reverence, to uh purify, that is to eliminate that which is incompatible with holiness, not kosher. I mean, it's not it's kosher, it's not non-kosher, to purify. So I I think we're talking about that sense, that Hebrew sense of purity and holiness and being something separating it from the world, not in the sense we think of and consecrate something like in a church ritual or something, you know. Not the consecration of the host in uh I think a Catholic Mass. That the it's no longer the bread, but it becomes the body of Jesus, is that's what's called a consecration. It's no longer physical matter, it just looks like it in a Catholic understanding.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah, well, this sanctified it makes me think of religions other than the Quakers. And I was wondering how this passage was interpreted or related, shall we say, to the Quakers.

Favor Grace And Quaker Ministry

Henry Jason 39:08

Well, I'm understanding here the Hebrew sense that I think is being expressed in these words that John is using in talking about the disciples, the the 12 apostles, needing or becoming consecrated or separate from the world. They are no longer the same people they were before, that they their minds are now and their actions are now consecrated to God, so that they really are different than your run-of-the-mill man on the street kind of person. And that's the understanding of consecration I have. And I think that's what Quakers would understand, what is needed for human beings in terms of needing to have a true repentance, a true metanoia, a true transformation of their whole way of thinking and acting.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Well, I find um what I would call a basically Protestant principle here, in distinction to the Catholic sense of uh what it is to be religious. Uh, and in Catholic speaking, if you call someone a religious, it means they are in holy orders and they are separated out from uh the rest of humanity, really metaphysically different. And I've I've been in uh ordination services, um, well, episcopal, but with the same theology. That once you understand that ordination, you're really different. But what I find here is that Jesus is sending us into the world, but with the consecration of the unity with our creator, our savior, the holy presence that will enable us to not be overcome by the world, but to overcome the world.

Henry Jason 40:51

So it is, I find that this helps eliminate a uh clerical laical distinction, and Quakers were very I think it's very important to get back to the fact that he's talking about these apostles, these disciples, these Jewish men, uh, and and they're understanding this in a clearly a Jewish sense because that's how he's talking to them. Uh, they're not going to know what Orthodox or Catholics or Anglicans or whoever later on might be understanding about this. They're going to understand what it meant to uh consecrate or sanctify an offering of an animal or wheat or something in the temple. That's what they're going to understand.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

There's a Quaker word, a conservative Quaker word, that has occurred to me. We don't use the word sanctified, but we use the word favored. A person is favored when at that time they're filled with a sense of the presence of the Lord and they're acting on his behalf.

Henry Jason 41:53

Yes, that's the word grace. They've become grace-filled, they've been favored. Yes, I forgot about that Quaker word. I don't hear it often, but uh I know they use.

SPEAKER_02 42:05

Maybe Nancy can say something about it.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

I know they do. And when a person is led to speak in the ministry in particular, I think, and afterwards, someone might speak to another and say that that minister was favored.

Henry Jason 42:23

Yes, that's an important thing because actually I just sent out a little blurb to some of the new foundation people on the meaning of the Greek word that most often gets translated as grace. And one of the basic meanings of that Greek word, caris, is favor or a favor. When a minister is favored by the Lord in what he has just given, that's the understanding of they have been filled with the Lord's grace, his graciousness, his favor has been bestowed on them, his kindness in having them be a spokesperson, a prophet uh for the Lord.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

It's not necessarily a praise of a person.

Henry Jason 43:06

No, it's not. But this is what I'm saying is that this is the sense of uh favor in the Greek as it was originally used. It's not like favor, you know, in the ordinary English sense of the word.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Um I wanted to ask Pat, do other Quaker groups, has he ever heard the word favor say in Philadelphia friends?

SPEAKER_05 43:25

I don't really attend Philadelphia yearly meetings any longer, but when I did, I would occasionally hear it from someone who had had uh been an from a family that was Orthodox friends. Usually uh the person would be in his 70s or 80s who used that term.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

So that that just gives evidence that it was a word used in former times among other friends, too, besides Ohio. I think in Ohio it still might have some relevance. People do use it still.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

I've heard it in North Carolina from a from the older folks in North Carolina, too.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Okay.

Henry Jason 44:09

I'm assuming we're just saying that in the sense of being of service to the Lord in a particular way.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

I have invoked that phrase among liberal friends a number of times over the years when somebody would thank me for something that I've said in spoken ministry, and I've said that traditionally the friends would not accept thanks for themselves, but uh that if recognizing something beneficial, they would say thee was favored. So I you know what what little I've had to add to some traditional conservative friends witness, I I have wanted to do because I don't think friends should go around thanking each other. Oh, that was wonderful what you had to say. I may also sometimes add the uh the doxology, praise God from whom all blessings flow. Don't praise the speaker.

Henry Jason 45:06

And I understand that uh if at least in olden times, the person who is prophesying, giving a prophetic ministry, would understand that it was not him, that he was just the conduit, the means, the oracle, the mouthpiece for the Lord. Okay, well, we've spent much longer than expected on this.

Wrap Up And Next Week

Henry Jason 45:32

This is a very difficult chapter, so uh just just in many ways, but uh we'll finish it next week and go on from there. Okay. Any last all right? Well, thanks everybody. Uh see you again next week.