The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 59 - 'Research Into Music Education with BMERG' Dr Anthony Anderson and Dr Adam Whittaker
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In this episode Chris chat with Dr Anthony Anderson and Dr Adam Whittaker of BMERG and their research into Music Education. Thank you to our Sponsor Faber Music. Visit https://www.fabermusic.com/education and use Podcast1 at the check out for money off. This podcast is brought to you by Soundstorm.
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsor FabreMusic. As a listener of our podcast, you're entitled to 20% of Faber Music titles. Simply head to Fabermusic.com forward slash education and use podcast one at the checkout. In this episode, I chat to Dr Anthony Anderson and Dr. Adam Whittaker from the Birmingham Music Education Research Group. Now the Birmingham Music Education Research Group in true ronteal fashion do exactly what their name suggests. They research music education. And in this podcast, Anthony and Adam reveal some of their findings from the music education landscape, looking at, for example, uptake in GTSD music or A-level music, for example. It's of course an interesting chat and it's revealing of what's happening in music education at the moment. Now one of the headlines I suppose is the uptake in GTSD music, A-level music, is suffering in lower-income areas or situations, for want of a better term. And I suppose in some ways that doesn't really surprise me, because maybe it's something I've heard before, but it really got me thinking that I I wonder if quite often in our music education conversations that we think about MusicEd in a bit of a vacuum, really. You see, it's my experience as a musician that to make really fulfilling creative choices, it's always depended on some kind of financial backing or some degree of financial security. Because to take musical or creative risks, to do things that aren't just done to be popular, you can't depend on it to offer you financial reward, or you know, in other words, depend on it as work, I suppose. And I think the reality is that we all know that and understand that. Young people, older people, people who are working as musicians, and people who aren't working as musicians. So if you're in an economically turbulent situation, or if you're a young person and the people that surround you and your family are in a financially turbulent world where actually it's a case of sort of financial survival, then I think we really have to understand that that might be a contributing factor to people not taking GTSE music or A-level music. Whilst I understand what I'm saying here isn't revolutionary by any means, I think it's something that isn't really being said very often in music education conversations because it's wildly unpopular to say yes, being a musician is an amazing and wonderful career, and I would suggest and support and recommend it to anyone of any background. But I acknowledge that this is a career that actually doesn't have the equality of opportunity that other careers might do. Because if you have come from a background of financial security, I think it's so much easier. And importantly, to make it particularly relevant to music education. Coming from that background of financial security, I have a feeling it makes it so much easier to make the choice of taking music as an option for GTSE or A level or what have you. I think when we acknowledge this, it changes how we approach the problem. It makes me think perhaps this isn't a school thing or a curriculum thing. Perhaps this is a societal problem, and it's about how we need to support people from poorer backgrounds more. I'd be really, really keen to hear your experience as a musician or as a music educator and to hear what you think about this. So please do get in touch by emailing contact at chriswoodsgroove.co.uk. It'd be really great to hear from you. I hope you enjoy this episode. Adam and Anthony, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Can we start off with uh who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_02Um so my name's Adam Whittaker. I'm the head of pedagogy at Royal Birmingham Conservatoire. Um, I undertake lots of research around a range of topics in music education, but I also support our undergraduate and postgraduate students through training to become music educators. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01I'm Anthony Anderson. I'm a research fellow in music education, also, strangely enough, at Birmingham City University, because Adam is my colleague, of course. And uh I'm uh researching all different aspects of music, uh music education, specifically thinking about curriculum. And I was a classroom music teacher for many years. I was a secondary music teacher in schools for about 16 years. So, so yeah, that's me.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful. Okay, gentlemen. So the the stimulus for the conversation was uh the education music education research group. Correct. So I guess it might be nice just to start with a summary of what that is doing and why it's doing it as well, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, yeah, Birmingham Music Education Research Group, um, we are looking at lots of different issues with really to do with um wherever there are issues of uh equity in music education, where uh very largely young people are not getting access to the music education uh that you might expect, looking at uh what's going on there, thinking about removing barriers uh and so on. So all different uh ranges of work really that that cover any of those themes, that's where you'll find us. Uh and if you look for research in any of those areas, uh then then we're going to pop up there areas to do with um curriculum disability in uh in music education, access across geographical areas. Those are the kind of things that we're interested in and where our expertise lies.
SPEAKER_02And lots of the research that we're doing as well is connected directly with key organizations and key charities who are working in this area. So we are researchers who are working with the sector, trying to help them address and to understand, help them address issues and help them to understand some of the things that are going on.
SPEAKER_03Okay. So ultimately, look at what's happening and then tell what's this music hubs, for example, uh Academy trusts, like this is going wrong, this is good, this is what you can do to address it.
SPEAKER_02Is that well, giving giving organizations and stakeholders of the sector really robust and you know, really rigorously analyzed and understood data so that they can help make really informed decisions about what some good practice looks like, um, where some of the issues might be, um, and to you know to give a clearer sense of how the ecosystem, where there are so many different stakeholders and people who are active in the ecosystem, it's really complicated. And we find it super interesting for that reason, but how that ecosystem is working and where some of the disjunctions may be, but also where some of the opportunities may be too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. I think uh Adam says it well there. It's super interesting and it absolutely is super interesting for us. And um, you know, the research projects we're engaged with come up from a variety of different things. Sometimes we're approached to say, we're doing this, we think it's really interesting. Would you like to look at it? Sometimes we're applying for research funding and grants, and then uh using that to develop the knowledge of what we know in music education, because believe it or not, there still is a huge amount that we don't really know. Um, so looking at all of that, so it can take a huge range of different forms, and it's just uh it's just really great to be able to be involved in that and doing what we hope will make a difference.
SPEAKER_02And working within a university context as well. Obviously, we're both involved in working closely with the next generation of music educators, too. And so we really enjoy taking our research findings and feeding that back into our teaching, making sure that what we're delivering is really relevant and vibrant and hopefully supporting a thriving music education sector.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful. I can I can see how that's very exciting. So, in the information that you're gathering, um I understand there's probably lots of that information, and I can't now tell ask you. Tell me all the information, give all the knowledge at once, if you could. But I suppose I'm particularly fascinated by what you're what you're measuring, because that's something that comes up in conversation in this podcast and in many just staff room conversations, I suppose. But the idea of what it is we're measuring, particularly in music, um, the idea of musical progression, for example, seems a bit of a a complex one or a confusing one. Well, I mean, one of the sorry, Ashley, you go ahead. Neither of you want to answer. We were both thinking about that.
SPEAKER_01I'll just I'll just say one quick comment, which is that I think um what we're interested at is getting at those little nuggets. You know, those things that that are really interesting that uh we sort of know, but how much do we know about why something's happening or how it plays out, or more perhaps more interestingly, how different people perceive or experience things, whether that is music teachers themselves or leaders in schools or the pupils, you know, who are experiencing music education, who of course is what music education is for. So um all of those things are are areas which kind of stimulate us in our research and guide us in what we're seeking to seeking to do. Uh, I'll let Adam say something now that I hope.
SPEAKER_03No, no, no, no, no. But before we get what what do you actually what do you mean there? What what like what specifically?
SPEAKER_01One example would be thinking about music curriculum and how that operates and finds a form in schools. Uh, that's a very kind of um challenging area to understand. And it's one of these things that uh music teachers uh carry with them, uh that kind of uh knowledge and using that in a way that we don't really think about, but what is taking place all the time. So we know that music teachers think in a about curriculum that they are designing in a very sort of multi-dimensional way, for instance. So they don't only think about, you know, I've got year nine on a Friday, what am I going to do with them this week? But it's much more going on than that. There's that kind of uh responsive, reactive uh thing that's going on in the classroom as uh teachers are working with young people, young people are responding to the teacher, the teacher's responding back to them. And so curriculum kind of develops in this uh organic way, which is uh which is all part of musical dialogue, of course, and what what is going on in that fascinating learning space. And if you've ever had that experience where you come into the music room and there's nobody there, it's one of these spaces where it's it's just kind of vacuous, isn't it? It's just what what is it? You can't capture it in a wall display. But when you're there and there's music being made, and that music is going to vary and change throughout even one school day, uh, that's one of the amazing areas really in which music teachers are working and which young people are responding to them all at the same time. So all of those things mesh together and trying to think about how to make sure every young person uh gets that experience in the way that they should.
SPEAKER_03Okay, cool. So what when it if we if we double down on curriculum, if you like, what what is it other than seeing that it's an organic process, uh a sort of a symbiotic development with teacher and student? What what else are you looking at within curriculum? Say, for example, the most recent um podcast that I was recording here was with home educators. So the idea of curriculum maybe is it's kind of null and void almost, you know. Is there any need for any curriculum in music anyway? You know, can it not just be um a self-guided journey of discovery for the student? Do you sort of look at those aspects as well?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. Well, I mean, I would absolutely see that as curriculum as well, because such a rich kind of field, that kind of experiential aspect. But just to just to kind of answer your question, one of the things that we've been thinking about uh recently is the length, uh, for instance, of the key stage three curriculum. So for 11 to 14 year olds, and what happens when that's a two-year experience instead of a three-year experience and the kind of impact that that has in schools. And we know that that's kind of uh very prevalent, and and that's uh that's going on uh a lot. We did some research um uh in 2021, which was looking at that um and uh looking at the how how frequent it was that uh um young people were experiencing two years instead of three. And and that sample, that was that was a band, about 60 teachers we did a we did a survey of, and then there were 12 follow-up interviews. So it's a reasonable chunk of people from all over the country, and 32% of them uh were saying, yes. So in in my school, it's now a two-year key stage three curriculum instead of a three-year. So that's another good example of where we're looking at that equity, that access, and young people being able to um get access to music education throughout their key stage three experience.
SPEAKER_03Uh so as a headline sort of changes then you that you're seeing within, to use that word equity, equity of access, right? So what do we see generally speaking um happening in in schools across the board that's that's changing, be it negative or positive?
SPEAKER_01Well, there's a huge arrange of changes, and there's probably as many answers to that as there are schools, of course. And we can only talk about those uh teachers that you know we worked with as part of that project. Um, but you know, there there are definitely uh some changes. One of the questions that I asked the teachers was, what would your curriculum look like, you know, in 2016, for instance, and what does it look like now? Um one of the big things that we see is a much wider spread. So we see that, especially in year nine, um, typically it's around about 38, 39 hours of music uh that uh that a young person uh would get across the year. Um, but um, you know, it can be much wider than that in year nine, where some it's as low as 12 hours, some would get slightly more, but it's much more widely distributed. And um one of the things which might be playing into that is um uh schools asking young people to make a choice before they go into year nine about what they're going to follow during that year. Um, and so that can be um like a sort of carousel system, or it can be you're just going to do a particular set of art subjects over that year. And so that impacts on things.
SPEAKER_03And uh communities choosing to do music or to do art, for example.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, or any other possible permutations you might think of. We know there are a huge number of school curriculum models. Um, and uh like I said, you know, almost every school has a different way of thinking about, you know, and packaging up their curriculum. So so these are the but these are big areas, you know, that impact on things.
SPEAKER_02And just following on from Anthony's point there, another factor that's in play as well is that um when we're talking about music qualifications that are offered at key stage four and key stage five, these have an impact on what is taught earlier in the school. Um we're seeing that overall across all music qualifications at level three, so that's key stage five, A-level vocational qualifications at that stage, they're about 35% lower than they were a decade ago in terms of the number of people pursuing those. And, you know, in some cases, that is because there are fewer musicians coming through the system, but also there are fewer schools offering these qualifications. And as we've said in lots of uh reports and things that we've we've produced, the child can't choose something that they're not offered. And if we're seeing this at key stage five level, we're increasingly seeing it in key stage four too, that this has a kind of impact uh earlier on in schooling as well. So if a child can't see that there's a pathway through their school to continue to pursue music, then making those choices becomes becomes really difficult.
SPEAKER_03Okay, but you're definitely distinctly seeing that across the board, but it's just like you said, 30%.
SPEAKER_02It's around 35%. And one of the things that we've that we think is really interesting, though really concerning about this is that the declines are not being seen equally everywhere. So there are some parts of the country where you're much more likely, for example, to be offered A-level music. Um, A-level music is, of course, just one qualification, and we've been looking at some vocational qualifications data too. But you know, if you live in some parts of the southeast of England, you're much more likely to be able to study A-level music in a local state school than you can if you live in the northeast of England. There are many different reasons as to why that might be the case. But what we're seeing is that some children, young people, young musicians are having to make choices where they say, Well, I'm going to have to move schools to continue to pursue music within my uh school qualification set, or I'm gonna have to stop. And that has real, real profound implications. And what we're seeing is that in the in the independent sector, for example, there are larger class sizes taking music qualifications at key stage five than there are in many state sectors. Of course, this is, you know, I'm talking in in broad terms here. There are, of course, exceptions where there's some really, really fantastic work going on, but also there are lots of teachers who we know from talking to them who say, Well, my school can't run this qualification if I don't have five, six, seven, eight students. And we know that the national average is around three students. So, in a in an area, a school that's offering a music qualification for four young people, that's providing an immensely valuable service and is ahead of the national average. But in many cases, a school leadership team will say, sorry, it's not viable, so we can't offer that qualification. And we see this as a real, a really concerning issue around access. Um, because you know, we will see increasingly that there will be concentrated numbers of entries in quite affluent areas or um in schools where music is really celebrated. And in other instances, young people simply by virtue of where they live, won't necessarily be able to access this unless they undertake a large journey or unless they're prepared to move to a you know to a different school altogether. And we see these as, you know, this is a really this isn't a really important part of the landscape that that we've been looking at for a number of years.
SPEAKER_03So uh in my um unresearched, uninformed opinion, of which I have many, I immediately presume, and I think you kind of alluded to it, but maybe not, that it's going to be schools in lower income areas that aren't you know filling up A-level music. It's a huge presumption based on absolutely nothing. Is that kind of what we're looking at though? Or am I just wrong?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think that I found I found really, really concerning um was that we were looking at all music qualifications at level three. So at this A-level stage, so students only take them aged 18. So this is all level three qualifications, not just A-level. About only about 45% of state schools offer a music qualification at that level. In comparison in the independent sector, 60% of schools offer a qualification at that level. So, you know, if you flip that around into a headline finding, the majority of state schools don't offer a music qualification at that level. And to us, that's it that that feels like a really concerning issue, um, given that you know, there are lots and lots of young musicians who who would want to take these qualifications and may be unable to do so simply because their school doesn't offer it. Um, and that that is for us a real concern.
SPEAKER_03Is it a kind of a chicken chicken and the egg thing where it's the kids there's not enough kids wanting it so that they don't offer it then they don't offer it the next year, so there's no kids at all that take it?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, you know, there's a this is difficult to unpack, but there's definitely a case that if we see music, the number of music teachers potentially decreasing, then the visibility of music within a school, all the the normalizing practices of having music as part of everyday life, that has a big impact. And it drives it more and more to the margins. So then you may end up in a situation where you have fewer and fewer students who are wanting to take these qualifications or continue to pursue that. And of course, not every young Musician wants to take a qualification in school. They might just want to continue playing and continue learning in their own time and for leisure. And that's, you know, that is, of course, something that young people have always done. But what we're seeing is that even though the numbers of young people who are engaged in music, particularly at earlier stages, is increasing. We know this from music hub data. Actually, the numbers who are continuing this through to the upper levels, to the more advanced stages, is actually decreasing. So that we're potentially ending up with a wider base of people who are getting some access, but actually the pathways to continue that through schooling or through music, music hub routes or through other kinds of uh progression routes, that the the those who are making making it through as opposed to the logical end of that pipeline are decreasing.
SPEAKER_03And what's what's the end of the pipeline in the sort of higher levels? Are you talking um in educational establishments, you know, be a university or college, or are we talking just someone who would make music in a different perspective, a situation like a band or even an amateur orchestra or what have you?
SPEAKER_02I mean, we're trying to think of this as broadly as possible. You know, different musical journeys, you know, there are lots of different ways that can be realized. For some young musicians, going on to high, you know, to further musical study in a higher education environment or a music college might be absolutely the thing that they want to do. In other cases, a young musician may want to continue making music completely outside of a formal educational space. And we're not privileging one of these over the other one. It's simply that that the kinds of musical opportunities, certainly within a formal space, we're seeing that there are decreasing numbers of young people being able to access these. And as I said in an earlier part of the answer, you know, the the thing that is really concerning for us is that this is not experienced in the same way everywhere. So we know that there are some really, really acute challenges in rural parts of the country, for example, where access to transport limits the range of opportunities that are on offer. We talked about qualifications, you know, and there's also a wider question about some of the viability of a musical career, too, that there are perceptions of what a musical career looks like. Um, and that can be really challenging to communicate, actually, that there's a real diversity of opportunities out there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think one of the things that we really do know, and we can say, um, and this isn't only music, of course, is that there is a real difficulty at the present time in recruiting teachers, and there are real challenges there. And I think uh when the um the deadline had gone uh recently for people handing in the notice, I think there were still around 200 uh music vacancies across the whole country. And I've certainly had uh a large number of people have been in touch with me as a music education researcher. Do you do you know other people who you know who might be interested in a music teaching job? We've got a great school just down the road and they've got a vacancy. And we were talking earlier on about uh the impacts of curriculum, and one of the things that we know teachers have told us is that when curriculum time reduces is it does that does impact and uh results in music teacher redundancies. And then young people aren't getting this uh rich offer, which they deserve. And as Adam says, different routes are right for different people, but the important thing is that they should be available uh to all people. There should be that choice, should be there for young people.
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SPEAKER_03So just uh quiz you a little bit on the what research there is there on the sort of end of the progression, the outcomes again. And sorry if you've said this and I just didn't quite register it, but how are you able even then to measure um outcomes of young people accessing music in the whole spectrum? So for example, could it simply be that we've got loads of new musicians? You know, if I look on Spotify, I see increasingly more and more new music. You know, it's not like we have a music problem in that sense. So are are we able to see that through research? Because could it not just be being slightly defensive and slightly provocative, but could it just be that music education in schools is just completely irrelevant and pointless because students are just learning how to do it through the many, many ways that they can now, anyway?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, I mean it's it's it's a really important question. Um, it really is. And measuring something across the totality of the sector is really difficult. You know, we know that the creative industry sector is a massive part of our economy, often overlooked, but bigger than the Premier League, right? So it's a significant sector. Um, so um clearly there's lots and lots of of real real success. Is it really bigger than the Premier League? That's quite exciting. I I have this, I have this vague recollection of a stat somewhere on the news. Um to that, to that effect to that it's a bit. Good enough.
SPEAKER_03I like those kind of stats.
SPEAKER_02Um it's it's uh it may be a half-remend, half-remembered, um, half-remembered thing. Um but you know, and we know that there's there's lots and lots of different ways that people can get their music out there, can share their musical ideas and and can come together. But, you know, I mean, if we look at some of the figures that we do have around aspects of the music workforce, for example, many of the music workforce are employed on a fractional or self-employed basis, even though they're undertaking work that, you know, many years ago would have been part of a you know an a full employment model, and that there are you know real challenges around the cultural sector more widely. Um, you know, there have been lots of um you know lots of lots of decisions that have been made around the ways in which funding is allocated to particular kinds of cultural activities. Um and so this paints a it's a really complicated picture for an aspiring young musician to navigate. You know, there are real challenges and pressures um for the for the workforce, and you know, some of these ideas come have a feedback into the things that um you know that music teachers are telling us about the ways in which their students are perceiving the likelihood of uh of us you know of being able to sustain a career related to music. And you know, we're seeing even even young musicians who who are really excited and enthusiastic about their music making, they're already deciding actually I want to pursue something else because I can't see it as a viable as a viable option. Um so you know, there are lots and lots of different uh different reports out there with different kinds of um statistics. I know UK music have been doing lots of work uh around this, um, but there are some some real challenges. And as you know, sort of going back to something I said earlier, uh, you know, if if a young musician can't access an opportunity, we don't know whether or not that cuts off a pipeline, a progression opportunity for that young person. You know, if that teacher is reduced from a full-time contract to a 0.8 contract, what does that mean for the life, musical life of the school? Um, and what does that mean for the you know, for the young musicians who we know that music teachers really, really want to support and want to want to empower to share their musical voices?
SPEAKER_01I think one of the interesting things, just uh picking up on that, is that one of the things that is seldom really disputed is that music in schools is really important. So there might be a lot of different opinion about the form that that might take uh and how you how you evaluate it. But everybody says yes, music in schools is important. Um, and you and you see that right across. And and to come back with the with the with your question, Chris. I mean, um uh if we go back to 1968, the rather attractively named Inquiry One, that that talked about uh that was a survey of school leavers at the time. Yes, exactly. But they were saying yes, music is boring and pointless, almost exactly the words that that you use there. But I I would hope that we've come a long way, you know, in that. When we when we look at the curriculum music teachers are using, they are incredibly rich, diverse, and engaging. And certainly, um certainly when I was a teacher and used to talk to talk to parents, parents would say, Wow, this is really, I wish I could come, can I do this now? Um, and and that that kind of opportunity that young people should have, uh, where to get that input and support and mentoring and encouragement, you know, in their musical development, that should be there for all young people. And not just um, you know, a one-off workshop once during the year or something, but in a sustained way that can really help that musical development. And I think uh I think one of you, I can't remember who it was, used the word pipeline, you know, that's all part of that picture as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I suppose it it's a it's not necessarily a case of just talking about music as a career as well, isn't it? Right, we're just talking about bringing some in some enjoyment into school. Shock horror. Um I'm quite interested though by the equity um idea, especially related to finance. Um so my experience of being a musician um has been one um that has been very much based around to do more uh creatively fulfilling things, it's relied on me having some kind of financial security. And I've I've always been quite acutely aware as a musician that it seems to be quite a middle class pursuit because to do anything um daring or challenging, then it yeah, I I've needed some kind of financial backing. Whereas the driving force as a musician to make money, if you like, tends to lead you, tends to to almost make bad choices, kind of this simple idea of if you don't have that security and that financial backing, you're you're not able to make the best choices because you're thinking in the short term. Do you think there's just a reality that that that is happening perhaps in schools in lower income areas as well? Because however we can talk about music as a very viable career and a vibrant career, I think there is still a reality that it's something that is probably not always your best choice if you yeah, if you don't have any financial security at all, so uh in a in a family sense, if your family are working off, you know, just floating above zero, then if you're going to be taking creative risks, you know, that that is risky. Over to you guys, go on. Give me something. Does that make sense? Or did I just I felt I was waffling slightly?
SPEAKER_02So uh no, I I I think I think I think I no, I I I think I I understand I understand the the the point that you're you're trying to make. You know, uh a family a family input, you know, or the support system around a young musician is is really important. And you know, we've I've we've talked about some of the ways in which uh opportunities and provision is joined up. And I think this is a really helpful thing because if we're giving a young musician the opportunity to do something when they are in year four, for example, let's say whole class, that happens in a lot of primary schools. If we're giving them the opportunity to do that, that's fantastic, okay? But what happens when they get to year five and suddenly the offer that was free is no longer free? What does the what does that young musician do? If they really, really want to continue to pursue that, what what can they do? They may not have access to an instrument, they may not be able to access the opportunities, and that immediately presents a barrier to continuing uh progression. So, you know, that's just sort of one example. If we go you know further further on, and uh I mean, you know, there were a few years ago, of course, there was the list of facilitating subjects, which was of course a subject of of a great deal of of controversy. Um, but the idea that continuing to to you know pursue music was not something that was going to enable you to access uh a good, and I'm using scare quotes here, uh a good degree course at university, for example, these are things that could impact and give a sense of the viability. There's always, you know, musicians have always had to work exceptionally hard and in lots of different ways to pursue uh a career, and that will often have many different parts to that. Um, but you know, this is why we say about access to opportunities is incredibly, incredibly important. Um that if if a child, young musician isn't able to access something, this is why this theme runs throughout all of our work, then they're not able to make that proactive choice for themselves. Um it's the the facilitating conditions, as it were, for that for that decision to be made aren't there. Um and and you know, we know, you know, we know that as teachers, we want to support our young people to continue to explore their musical voices, to continue to develop. Um, but if those opportunities aren't there, then that makes that more challenging.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Um I totally agree with what Adam's saying there. And I think um there can also be those those blind spots. Um and and we we've been talking a lot about music, but I think a lot of the time, actually, here we're talking about performing. But there is, of course, uh lots of other uh dynamics and dimensions to musical life, um, including things like composing. And certainly some of our work has looked at that. Uh, we did a we did a research project called Go Compose, funded by Sound and Music, and um, and that was uh that was thinking about just that really. How do we make composing available for young people who are in challenging circumstances and uh a variety of different different projects there? But one of them was uh for young people who were in alternative educational provision, and how do we enable them and what are the pathways for them to developing musical responsiveness in composing and creating music and not only in performing? So these are very real, very real challenges, aren't they? And and as we've been saying all along in our in our conversation together today, uh it's very much about enabling those opportunities to be there for everyone, no matter what your background is or what tech you have aspect uh access to, or you know, what doors are open for you in your school, how how are you going to be able to access music in the way that you should be able to?
SPEAKER_03Is is there a reality though that where all this effort goes into creating a quality of opportunity within school settings? But we the product of being a musician in any guise at the end is is essentially the bright the blind spot because the ability, whilst it might uh be possible to have a very successful and um financially beneficial career, it is without doubt still more challenging in the short-term income scenario than working a more mainstream job.
SPEAKER_01Somebody once uh said, I think if you find something you love, you'll never do a day of work again. And and yeah, I think that's an impossibly difficult question to answer. And perhaps we can't answer it and never will be able to. But the point is that there should be opportunities. There needs to be, yes, funding, so there are pathways which go beyond school. You know, there's there should be those opportunities, and they do exist, but there need to be more of them so that young people get those opportunities to develop musically and to pursue those careers in all areas. Uh, and of course, we're we're obviously particularly passionate about music, but there are lots of other pathways too that are also very important that young people should have have access to in the arts, for instance.
SPEAKER_03And what what do you think specifically musically, those additional pathways that are missing that that could be brought in in a in a in a modern music education setting as well? Maybe some things that we haven't traditionally seen that we should be bringing in.
SPEAKER_01Well, we're straying into areas of which I know very little, Chris. And uh, you know, perhaps that's uh that's something for you to explore it with another guest at another show. But I think what we can say is uh where the gaps are. And uh, you know, this uh this whole ability to access uh composing is certainly one of them. Like there aren't uh traditional progression routes uh like there are, say, in performing and you know, things like graded exams, which are one possible pathway, of course, nowhere near the be it be all and end all, but there's no real uh equivalent for those in composing that I'm aware of. Um so so things like that are very, very important. And for young people to have those opportunities to engage with uh you know composing and creating and improvising, uh they're all they're all very, very important and should be a part of the tapestry of school experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and we know from some of the some of the other work that we've done that you know some some teachers and some music educators have real anxieties about how to approach um composing because so much of their own training, our own training is often performance focused. And you know, this this identifies a you know a training need, but it's a you know it's also about empowering teachers to you know feel confident in the ways in which they could support, for example, composing is uh you know, is is one area that that Anthony's talked about. And some of the ongoing work that we've been doing here at BMERG around Listen, Imagine, Compose, which is a uh a scheme that initially had a secondary phase and is in the moment at the moment going exploring work in some primary settings to looking at how classroom teachers, in the case of secondary, uh secondary projects, classroom music teachers, but in the case of primary, primary generalists, how those teachers can be empowered and supported to build their confidence in in engaging young people in composing and creative activities in this way. And um, you know, it it is now a fully fledged master's accredited accredited accredited course. Um, and you know, that this is something that well, we're seeing you know, part of the research findings actually feeding back into supporting teachers in their own development too.
SPEAKER_03Composing is a bit of a scary word, isn't it? It's kind of on a par with writing music, isn't it? That's the divisive bit amongst teachers.
SPEAKER_02It has it has all sorts of baggage attached to it as well. Um, so uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Fantastic. Wonderful gentlemen. Is there anything that has really significantly jumped out to you guys in your in your research that you didn't expect to see? Because you must have sort of gone into the the research world of music education, having your own sort of ideas and experiences because you're working within music education. And I imagine quite a lot of it comes back and you go, Yeah, well, of course, of course that's happening, of course. But has there been any real surprises? Then you've gone, oh wow, okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think for me, um it's discovering the depth. Like you've alluded to there, Chris. Sometimes you you you have your own experiences which kind of guide you a bit, and you think, oh, you know, is it like this? But when you actually uh look at it in more detail, you discover things you didn't know were there and you didn't know were going on. And um, so I can definitely say from a research point of view, I've discovered that music teachers are amazing. And they're amazing in the work they do.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. And I win a lot of friends on this podcast.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's so true though, the work they do with young people, and then you see the young people responding, but you understand the what the different things that are going on in a music teacher's interactions that perhaps you didn't know were happening. You know, and and when you think about what everybody draws on, their own experiences, their own identity, where they position themselves as a musician, all of those things play into the opportunities that they give young people every day. And every day there are thousands of music teachers all across the country, in schools and outside, which do an absolutely amazing job. And it's our privilege really to work with them and to have the chance to talk with them about what they think about music education.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I absolutely agree with with Anthony. It's it's it is such a privilege to be able to talk with so many inspiring music educators who are dealing with all sorts of issues, challenges, opportunities, and to talk with them about the ways in which they have aspirations for the young people they work with, and how they're thinking really creatively about how to make the best of the things that they have. Um, and it's it's so wonderful to go and see such a range of activities and to to talk to so many enthusiastic, inspiring young musicians too, um, you know, to hear about their musical aspirations, how their musical horizons have have broadened, what their interests are. And so it is it is a real joy to to explore many of these issues, even though many of the bits of research that we do often point to challenges and things that are not not working so well. It is fantastic to be able to explore and and to to better understand the fantastic work that we know is going on every day in lots of schools.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful. Thank you, gentlemen, for all your your insight. Where can people find out more about the research and the the projects as a as a whole?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh the easiest way is just to go to the the Birmingham City University website. If you just go to there and you and you search on on the website for um Birmingham Music Education Research Group, then you'll find our pages, you'll see who the researchers are and you'll see all the projects we're working on. I think we've got about 10 live projects at the moment and many more that we've that we've done over the years. So that's the best way, really, to to find out information. Um, and of course, you can contact us directly if you'd like to do that as well. We're always uh open to interesting uh emails when people get in touch and tell us about the work they're doing.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much. Thank you so much to you for listening to this episode, and thank you to Faber Music and Soundstorm for making it possible.