Lead with Curiosity with Ryan Tahmaseb

I had a blast chatting with Ryan Bani Tahmaseb. We celebrate his debut picture book, Rostam’s Picture-Day Pusteen, and talk about collaborating, connecting with family, and leading with curiosity.

Click here by 11:30 AM EST on Sunday, September 22nd, to sign up to join our live chat with Andrew Hacket, Ernesto Cisneros, Lisa Stringfellow, Marcie Atkins and Tina Athaide. If you aren't able to join us, no worries. The recorded episode will release in two weeks.

Transcript

00:01.79

katenarita

Welcome, Ryan. I am so excited to have you here today on Chalk and Ink. Thank you so much for joining us.

00:07.97

Ryan

Thank you so much for having me.

00:10.46

katenarita

Wonderful. I'm hoping that we can get started by having you introduce yourself to the listeners. Tell us who you are as an author, who you are as an educator.

00:19.20

Ryan

Sure, absolutely. So my name is Ryan Bonny-Thomasab. As a teacher, I currently work as an academic coach for K through 12 students in reading, writing, and executive functioning skills. And I also um do or offer enrichment for students who excel academically and benefit from extra learning opportunities. um I also worked as an English teacher for seven years and then as a school librarian for seven years as well.

00:47.99

Ryan

And as a writer, I write mostly for kids. My debut picture book with illustrator, Fatima Mocles, called Rostam's Picture Day Pustine, came out just a few months ago in July. And I have a few more forthcoming as well, including my debut middle grade book, which is titled Persian Mythology. It's a nonfiction book, and that's coming out next year.

01:10.14

Ryan

And then I also write for adults, ah usually about education. And, you know, my professional development book is called The 21st Century School Library. And that one's written for educators who are not librarians, actually. um And it's about how schools can better utilize their school library and or their school librarian.

01:32.62

katenarita

Thanks so much. I'm really enjoying the 21st school library.

01:36.42

Ryan

Okay.

01:36.51

katenarita

I'm taking a lot of notes.

01:38.40

Ryan

i try

01:38.51

katenarita

when There it is. When does the Persian mythology come out? I know you said next year. Is there a firm date or not yet?

01:46.32

Ryan

I believe it's, it's coming up next fall. I think late next fall. I think November.

01:49.36

katenarita

OK. OK.

01:50.72

Ryan

Yeah.

01:52.36

katenarita

All right. Well, i'll be I'll be sure to get that. I've become a huge nonfiction advocate in the past couple of years. So I'm really excited that that one's coming out.

01:58.98

Ryan

Oh, thanks so much. Yeah. I'm excited about that one for sure.

02:03.63

katenarita

Yeah, so talk to us about like how you you developed as a writer. Did your passion for education come first or writing or were did they develop simultaneously?

02:15.69

Ryan

Um, I would say my passion for writing came first and it wasn't just a passion for writing. However, I feel like from a very young age growing up, I was always interested in anything creative writing, drawing, photography, painting.

02:33.08

Ryan

Um, I dabbled playfully as most kids do, um, with, in each of those areas and had a lot of fun, like making my own books and making my own stories. And I took lessons on cartooning when I was a kid. I know it's raw much as an adult, but, um, I do like doing like from time to time as well.

02:54.09

katenarita

Okay. And so then how did you get into, you said you were an English teacher first and then a librarian, now you're a coach. So how did you decide to go to, you know, to meld your passion for writing with teaching for English and then eventually move into the library?

03:09.30

Ryan

Oh, wow. I think because I had an experience. I met my wife doing a year-long program called AmeriCorps, which is like a domestic version of the Peace Corps, usually a one-year commitment instead of two. And one of our projects that year was working at a Boys and Girls Club.

03:32.67

Ryan

in Texas and it was my first time really working with young kids and I loved it and that lets me apply for jobs. kind of like an education adjacent nonprofits after that year of service. And I ended up working for Big Brothers Big Sisters of Massachusetts Bay. I think it's called something different now. But that was my first like adult job. And part of my work with Big Brothers Big Sisters involved going into schools.

04:04.01

Ryan

and working with the big brothers and big sisters who have been matched with students at schools. And so i it was kind of you know in conversations with educators that I decided I wanted to you know become a teacher and went to grad school for it. And just drawing on my own love of reading and writing decided I i wanted to focus specifically on teaching English.

04:30.58

Ryan

And after a while of teaching English, which I loved and continue to love. I mean, I very much still am doing a lot of that same work now as an academic coach for kids and teens. But it was.

04:43.12

Ryan

you know, after a while I wanted to it just try some different things and and I loved the school where I was, and i but I also wanted to spread my wings a bit and try something different and still in the literacy world. And so I i looked into becoming a school librarian and and did the coursework to become certified to do that. And that was ah that was a wonderful job as well. And yeah, so I think that's kind of the big picture trajectory of how I ended up in education and specifically the the areas of education that I ended up in.

05:17.87

katenarita

Yeah, that that makes sense. And how did you come about to writing Rostam's Picture Day Pustine? Because I don't know when you started writing them, but that one's published after the 21st Century School Library. So did you start off writing for adults and then switch to kids? Or had you always been writing for kids and adults? What was that like?

05:37.23

Ryan

Good question. i I actually started writing because I realized that if I was asking my students in the English classroom to write and share their work and revise that I would have to do that too. And a big part of what spurred me to do that was reading a book called In the Middle by Nancy Atwell.

06:01.57

Ryan

And so that's a professional development book for teachers as well. And my big takeaway where there was, you know, you have to, if you're asking your students to do this work, you have to put yourself out there as well. And so it was through that process over time that I started writing for both kids and adults, I was writing for my students and with my students and.

06:23.20

Ryan

I just kind of fell in love with the, like fell in love again with the process and the way that I hadn't actually experienced since I was much younger, kind of before, as happens with so many kids and adults, like school kind of, it can kill creativity in a lot of ways, right? And because you're being asked to do read books and write in genres and formats that you don't innately care about.

06:52.43

katenarita

Yeah.

06:52.70

Ryan

And and so when I started writing with and for my students, I just, again, I fell in love with the process. I fell in love with writing again. And i I think it all started taking off in a sense when I started writing about my experiences with my students.

07:08.53

Ryan

So like writing about teaching. Like I had, I remember I had an article published by Education Week about teaching Juno Diaz, a Juno Diaz short story. And then I started looking into writing for Edutopia, which I do now, like usually like once or twice a year. Yeah, writing about teaching has been something that I've been passionate about, just sharing, you know, kind of powerful learning experiences that I've had in the classroom with my kids.

07:39.87

katenarita

Yeah, your book, The 21st Century School Library, it's it's incredible.

07:44.64

Ryan

oh that

07:44.78

katenarita

i Yeah, I haven't gotten all the way through it. but I wish I had, but I've read through almost through three chapters. And just I feel like it's just jam-packed with incredibly useful and inspirational information.

07:57.02

katenarita

I love how you give readers like specific organizations that they can go to to help them make the changes that you're talking about. I think a lot of times, Books are really they're theoretically based and someone can be like, yes, I agree with that, but I have no idea like where to start or what to do in next.

08:09.51

Ryan

Oh, thank you so much.

08:16.39

katenarita

and i And I don't think that that's helpful, actually.

08:16.72

Ryan

Yeah.

08:19.11

katenarita

It's like you know like you know talking to the choir, so to speak, but you really take it a step above that by giving people examples, resources that they can use to try to make learning a more democratic process.

08:23.04

Ryan

Yeah.

08:32.52

katenarita

And, you know, you talk about in that first chapter, you talk about the passion project, you know, and that speaks directly to what you were just talking about that, you know, that creativity can be killed when we don't give students choice.

08:32.84

Ryan

ah

08:43.47

katenarita

And that passion project that you were using really fights that. And I was hoping you could talk about that.

08:50.78

Ryan

Yeah. im just Well, first of all, I'm so glad you you've but you feel that way because I, as a teacher, of course, and I'm sure you've experienced this as well. I've read so many professional development books that just as you said, like I agreed with the concepts, but also there's not, ah even if I was really excited and and amped up after reading it, I didn't quite know and never, of course, had the time to really figure out how to apply some of that um exciting information into my everyday teaching practice. um But yeah, the Passion Project is is a good example, I think, to talk about with this because it kind of goes back to what I was saying about ah choice and and you know giving students the space and time

09:37.51

Ryan

um to explore topics and write in ways that they want to write about, you know, so explore topics they care about and to write in formats and genres that are exciting to them. And I feel like that's so crucial because you i mean for so many reasons, including the fact that when kids are able to to do those things, they innately care more about what they're doing and it gets rid of a lot of the you know potential disciplinary issues that were behavioral issues that might come up because you know you're not having to like police their behavior because they're actually working hard on what they are doing.

10:21.78

Ryan

And, but yeah, the the Passion Project is basically I read a book, another professional development book called, oh shoot, what is it called? I think the it's by Tom Romano. It's the multi-genre research paper, I think, is the title of the book. like Don't quote me on that, but it's, yeah, the author is Tom Romano and he did I think pioneer this approach of letting so having students do research on a topic and then communicate what they learned in a variety of different genres and formats, um all kind of centered around a thesis that they've created. And this works for really young students. I mean, I did the passion project with fifth graders. it wasn't These weren't high school students who were creating thesis statements. um They were fifth graders and it took time to help them develop those those arguments that they were you know going to make and about

11:11.72

Ryan

the topic that they were researching but you know with scaffolding and support they were able to do it and I think yeah as much as possible giving students that space makes learning more fun for them and it makes your job as a teacher therefore I think more exciting as well.

11:27.78

katenarita

And then if I remember correctly, they have a thesis and then they were supposed to write about the topic in four different genres. So I'd love for you to talk about that because I think, at least in my experience, so many teachers are much more comfortable like working in the narrative genre than in other formats.

11:34.07

Ryan

Yes.

11:45.12

katenarita

And I'd love to talk about why you think it's so important to explore the same topic with multiple different genres. and that And that source you're talking about is cited in your book, The 21st Century School Library.

11:56.70

Ryan

ah okay

11:56.64

katenarita

so

11:57.40

Ryan

thanks

11:57.48

katenarita

It's there too, yeah.

11:58.20

Ryan

Yeah. yeah um Well, I think, let's see, I think the biggest

12:09.00

Ryan

Let me see. Can you ask the question one more time? I just want to make sure you answer it clearly.

12:12.08

katenarita

Yeah. Yeah, so I was saying that I think that these teachers that I've worked with feel more comfortable teaching the narrative format of writing. Because in general, I think that elementary school teachers lean towards being narrative readers.

12:28.05

katenarita

And so, of course, they're most comfortable with the narrative writing format.

12:31.68

Ryan

Okay, right.

12:31.90

katenarita

But in the Passion Project, you ask students to have this idea, this thesis, and then to address it in at least four different types of writing formats. And so my question was, how do you think that doing that helps students learn the topic or understand the topic in a different way than if they were just writing in one format about it, you know whether it's narrative or you know informational or expository or a poem?

12:58.01

Ryan

Okay, I think for me the main thing is it gives students an opportunity to express themselves in a way that is not narrative and for some reason, for some students that really deepens helps deepen their understanding because they're tapping into ways of expressing themselves that are more natural to them.

13:16.18

Ryan

And that could be you know something that is more traditionally narrative, like a short story or a poem, but it could also be something that kind of is multi-media in a way, like a song that includes lyrics and that they have produced and perhaps sung in some cases, like numerous students did it for that project over the years, um or creating a video recording of a skit that they wrote. So you see like each of those are kind of rooted in narrative in a way, but also allow them to kind of expand into spaces that are more interesting to them and in many ways.

13:58.40

katenarita

Okay, that makes sense. And did you did you ever have students, I'm just really curious. I mean, I have found when I was doing expository, like writing with my students, so just one just one format, right?

14:09.01

katenarita

That they would be really surprised about something you know that they learned, even just with writing in that one format.

14:09.43

Ryan

Yeah.

14:15.35

katenarita

And I imagine with producing you know four different formats about the same topic, that i I would think that they're like continuously surprised about what they're learning like each time they're working within a different format. And I'm wondering if you saw that, like different types of learning occurring based on which type of format students were using.

14:39.23

Ryan

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think it gets interesting too when you know, because part of what I require to kind of make it more concrete for students is asking them to, or requiring them to communicate in each genre or part of the project, eight facts from their research in creative ways.

15:00.86

Ryan

And so it kind of like if they were doing a skit, for example, to return to that example, that that like somehow in the conversation that's occurring in that skit, those facts would be communicated. Not in a like fact one, fact two, fact three, fact four kind of way, but like in a more kind of natural and organic way.

15:14.85

katenarita

No, yeah.

15:18.68

Ryan

And so it kind of you know forced them to be more creative in how they communicate the information.

15:30.80

katenarita

That sounds like that must have been a really fascinating process ah you know for you and also for the students to see.

15:34.66

Ryan

Yeah.

15:36.36

katenarita

i bet I bet the amount of creativity that came through there was phenomenal.

15:41.17

Ryan

It really is. And we we would put together a website like for each project the students would put together their own personal Google site about their project. And then we had a Google site of all their different Google sites. And so that would link to each of them with a little kind of a you know preview of each website of the homepage. And it was just you know fascinating and also a really cool kind of artifact to share um with the rest of the school community, including parents and other class classes. And then to kind of be able to show subsequent classes, you know students the next year, what students last year did. That was one of their favorite parts of the process was just like going through

16:27.46

Ryan

Projects that students I create in previous years and being inspired by them um It was I would say

16:32.87

katenarita

I'd love to hear more about that. How much time did you allow for that like within you know within the school setting for students to explore that before they chose their project? So what did the rolling out of the passion project look like for you?

16:53.31

Ryan

ah like a week or two long ordeal. So that would be like one or two, potentially three class sessions of roleing of explaining what it is, drumming up interest.

17:04.62

Ryan

and i mean there But there is also, like after the first year we did it, there was already kind of built up interest because a student had seen and heard about it, um and they were ready for it.

17:10.42

katenarita

Sure.

17:15.15

Ryan

And it certainly over time, and I think I said this in the book to it kind of evolved into a capstone experience for the fifth grade so before the students went in into middle school it's kind of like a capstone elementary experience for them, which is really cool. um But in terms of how much time we gave them to look I think what we did was we shared.

17:35.16

Ryan

So this was like it was me as the school librarian and also a like the tech integration teacher would kind of need this in conjunction with the classroom teachers to some extent as well.

17:40.86

katenarita

Yeah.

17:46.03

Ryan

But we would show them we would show the students a few examples that we wanted to highlight briefly just to kind of wet their appetite a little bit and then we would set them loose and like with their headphones that you know because a lot of this was audio visual.

17:59.71

Ryan

um

17:59.73

katenarita

Sure.

18:00.90

Ryan

And so we would give them, I don't know, like probably like a good 20 or 30 minutes to just kind of explore and maybe and and take notes on what which projects they like the most and why, um asking them to make to notice as well the thesis statements that each student wrote for their project. um Because that was going to be you know that would that would have been one of the next steps was starting to think about brainstorming topic ideas, um which took you several weeks as well.

18:31.12

Ryan

And and remember definitely required having kind of one on one conversations with the teachers involved, including myself about, you know, basically how to identify a topic that would yield.

18:47.69

Ryan

enough age-appropriate enough ageappropriate information and choosing a topic that these students would be willing to like really dig into for most of that academic year. That was the other big thing that we stressed to them was, listen, you're about to start a big project. um you know And of course lots of students thought they are they came in with their idea or the first idea they came up with they were really excited about and and decided that they were definitely gonna do that. But we really encouraged them to come up with three ideas initially that they were they they would be genuinely excited about studying for the whole year. And then of course we'd help them whittle that down to one.

19:26.00

katenarita

So I'm just super fascinated. So how did you help them whittle those three ideas down to one? Was it like, Oh, like, let's just look and see, like just do a general search. Like how many, you know, resources are available for this topic?

19:38.20

katenarita

I know last year I had a student writing about the naked, like blind, like mole rat or something like that. and might It might even be something even more obscure. And I mean, it was almost impossible to find anything age appropriate for him to read about it.

19:46.57

Ryan

Yeah.

19:50.94

katenarita

Like I wanted like two sources and. I mean, we could find sources, but they were sources written like, you know, at a graduate school scientific level that, you know, any, and this was a really advanced student, but still that was just wasn't, there's no way he could have done a whole year project on that. So what did that look like? How did you whittle it down from those three? Because I could see like a student really wanting to do project a, but like, you know, it's a naked blind mole rat or whatever this was. i mean It might not even been that, but it was like that. It was some kind of obscure bull rat.

20:21.06

katenarita

um um you know and like So what did that look like?

20:23.31

Ryan

Yeah.

20:25.47

katenarita

Because I could see someone being really fixated, but this is what I really want to do. and like But there's like not not much out there.

20:29.35

Ryan

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think when we had them, I'm pretty sure what we had them do was a graph basically complete a graphic organizer, essentially, or ah like a worksheet that asked them to identify the topics and then Find a set number of maybe it was between like seven and 10 probably of horses that they found that would be age appropriate, meaning that they could understand what they were reading without much, you know, effort.

20:55.29

katenarita

Okay.

21:05.66

Ryan

And we, of course, like, we would also, as the librarian, I was responsible for kind of introducing them to all the different places they could search, like age appropriate academic data, but you know, school databases that they could use, for example, that was a big one, but also like how to how to google you know search Google effectively and find and what what makes a good source, what makes it not a good source. And of course, that's all a work in progress. That's something that they were really just starting in many ways at that age, and then would continue to practice and hone those skills in middle school and high school and even college. But we were starting to teach those skills and trying to teach them how to find effective and you know effective sources, solid sources. um And yeah, they just had to show that they could find a set number

21:51.65

Ryan

and be And it was was essentially that graphic organized graphic organizer or worksheet I was referring to as basically a proposal that they were giving to us ah that we would kind of review with them after they had shared with us.

21:51.70

katenarita

Okay.

22:00.68

katenarita

Okay. That makes sense. And then on their website at the end, did they have like a, you know, a page for their sources?

22:12.16

Ryan

Oh yeah, that was their least favorite part of the process and probably mine too to teach. Honestly, I was like, listen, this is like, and I told them that I was like, this is going to be the least exciting part of the process, but, um, it's important. And I would explain why citing sources is important. Um, and they, they got it done and we would use MLA format, just as simple, you know, keep it simple. And, uh, but yeah, but they did have source or bibliography pages on their websites.

22:38.05

katenarita

All right, well, I do want to make sure we we switch into um your picture book, but before I move on, I just really want to say that I think that this book, the 21st Century School Library is outstanding and I'm and very excited you know while I'm reading it.

22:50.73

katenarita

You just give so many good ideas. I just want to talk briefly about another one that you mentioned in there was the Read Woke Project. And I think that you know for anyone looking to build a more inclusive, more equitable

22:58.42

Ryan

Yeah.

23:05.04

katenarita

school that this is a must have book because you just have so many different ideas um of how you can begin to do that. And i I'm really super grateful for the opportunity to have read it.

23:16.60

katenarita

So thank you so much for writing it.

23:18.16

Ryan

Thank you so much for the kind words and thank you for reading it.

23:20.93

katenarita

Yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. So, um so for Rust-Am's picture day Pustine, I'm curious about that. Like, when did you start writing that?

23:30.89

Ryan

Yeah.

23:32.80

katenarita

I mean, it comes from a personal place, but what, how long was that process?

23:35.03

Ryan

Oh my goodness.

23:37.01

katenarita

What did that look like?

23:39.74

Ryan

So this book has a long history and it started with a fiction writing course I took at Breadloaf, which is one of the graduate programs I did, the Breadloaf School of English at Millbury College.

23:52.86

Ryan

um And as part of that, it was that writing fiction and writing fiction for adults was the class I was taking. And I read the professor's book before I started that class that he had written about writing fiction because I thought that, oh, that might be a helpful to do before I take the class. And in the back, or at some point in the book, he recommended as inspiration for writing fiction,

24:22.36

Ryan

to interview family members or close friends about their lives. And he provided this list of questions that you can ask like during a conversation or an interview with, again, a family member or friend. And i sat I ended up asking my dad if he would be willing to do that while I was there in North Carolina visiting him.

24:49.42

Ryan

And he agreed of course and we sat down in his living room for probably a couple of hours, and it was such an illuminating discussion such a special moment because you don't necessarily.

25:03.82

Ryan

um you know think to do that necessarily for a variety of reasons, to to interview a parent in the kind of formal way where I was like actually sitting there taking notes on the on the conversation. But it was, again, a special moment just because I was hearing all of these stories from his life that I had never heard. um And one of them was about when he was, ah you know, so hes so he's an Iranian-American immigrant. he He came, his parents, his family moved from Tehran in Iran in the 1960s. And so, you know, before the ah revolution. And anyway, they had lived in the States for a few years and my dad had made friends and was feeling pretty good overall about the transition. And

25:55.95

Ryan

Then his parents insisted that he wear this traditional Persian vest to school for picture day and he was horrified. And he thought it was going to be an absolute disaster. And he was going to be made fun of all day. But when he got there, my dad explained, he said that all of his friends, all of his classmates loved it, loved this pustine, this Persian vest, so much so that they all wanted to wear it and he had to make a list of who would wear it and when throughout the day. And I just thought that was such a delightful story. I had never written a picture book or had

26:32.69

Ryan

thought seriously about writing for kids before. But that I was like, that has to be a picture book. I mean, what I didn't know about picture books, I was like, that just like is begging to be a picture book.

26:43.05

Ryan

But at the time, I had no idea how to write a picture book. So I just kind of set that idea aside. I remember telling my wife, I was like, I have to write this sometime. And, and then yeah, years pass, you know, I'm teaching

26:52.04

katenarita

Yeah.

26:56.94

Ryan

And at some point I was, I just was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it a try. And then I went through the experience to anyone who's written a picture book manuscript for the first time goes through, which is like,

27:11.54

Ryan

you write something that's way too long, has like leave absolutely no space for the illustrator um going into all of this detail. And it just, yeah, so I met, i I found a critique group. I did a paid critique. um I got all, I just was like hungry for feedback. I shared it with a bunch of my teacher, English teacher friends and just,

27:36.89

Ryan

it took like, I don't know, like a year or two for me to finally whittle it down into um what felt like a solid picture book manuscript. And of course, throughout all of this, I was finally like reading very seriously lots of different picture books to just see how it's done. And also,

27:59.39

Ryan

It just, it also coincided with the the birth of our first child. And so there was that element in there as well. And yeah, so that's, that's, I mean, I think between the the publication of the book and the, the initial idea from sitting down with my dad was I think 10 years overall.

28:19.18

katenarita

Yeah. So okay, a couple of things I want to go back to there. So do you remember the name of the book ah that your professor's book that talked about the importance of interviewing families and friends?

28:29.18

Ryan

Um, I do that's actually right here. It's called the writing habit and it's by David huddle.

28:38.07

katenarita

Awesome. The Writing Habit by David Huddle. I will definitely be checking that out.

28:44.02

Ryan

It's really good.

28:43.88

katenarita

so i just yeah I wanted to say a couple of things about that and move on. so you know My dad has dementia and so I could no longer have you know this conversation with him.

28:51.55

Ryan

Yeah.

28:53.56

katenarita

so I think that just interviewing family members, even if you have no intention about ever writing them, is so important because you never know when you're going to lose the opportunity to do so and you can't get it back. right so I think that alone is just really important.

29:07.27

katenarita

I used to do a project, there's another, your book is published by Charles Bridge, and there's a Charles Bridge book called 10 Beautiful Things, which just is so, so beautiful, it takes my breath away.

29:12.14

Ryan

Yeah.

29:16.57

Ryan

ah

29:18.61

katenarita

And so a project I used to do in the spring was we read that book. And if kids wanted, they didn't have to, they could choose a different project. But if they wanted to, they could interview a family member and talk about 10 beautiful things they learned about

29:28.46

Ryan

Yeah.

29:30.42

katenarita

you know their family member. And I just think that's so important for all of us to do. And like you said, and you and you were an adult when you did your interview, but when you actually sit down and take the time to formally interview someone, you find out things about them that you that you've never known. And I found this, you know some of the people I've had on the podcast and the people I've known for 20 years, and I think I know them really well. And then we sit down and do this interview and i I'm finding out things I didn't know. And so I just think that formal interview process is actually just really helpful in terms of developing relationships with people as well.

30:02.22

Ryan

Absolutely. Yeah, I think in having your students interview people too is one thing that I found over the years to yield really interesting and genuine and creative writing as well. Like we did variations and maybe you've done this as well. Like I'm thinking of NPR story core. Are you familiar with that at all?

30:20.76

katenarita

I am, but could you please explain it for people who aren't?

30:24.41

Ryan

Yeah, I mean, it's basically, I think i think this is part of story core, but often it's, Maybe I'm thinking of a different NPR program or like kind of.

30:34.20

katenarita

Yeah, there's so many NPR programs.

30:36.90

Ryan

Yeah, there are but either way like the idea of interviewing somebody if a family member often or a friend and asking them about and then kind of pulling out one tidbit as like an like an audio project.

30:52.57

katenarita

Yeah.

30:52.83

Ryan

ah I think is really, again, kind of or can be really fruitful for so for students and kind of developing

31:05.10

Ryan

you know, a creative project, but also developing their, like figuring out how to, it's a great opportunity for students to kind of interact with adults too. You know, like middle school students do that frequently and sometimes elementary school students do that.

31:15.20

katenarita

It is.

31:20.18

Ryan

And it just, it's just like such a great practice um for them of doing something formal like that. And then again, the the writing that comes with it is often really good.

31:32.07

katenarita

Did you have, was that something that someone could do like for the passion project would be to interview somebody and then like, you know, publish it in a transcript format? Was that an option for people?

31:42.34

Ryan

Yeah, we actually, in some cases students did that, but we would also encourage them as part of that project to reach out to any experts that they might know, like in some cases we would help connect them with an expert on their topic.

31:58.98

Ryan

like so I remember like my wife, actually, my wife is a speech-language pathologist, and i like we would help connect them and identify people who might be helpful for them to talk to, and we we listed ah we We told them that it could use, you know, actual human beings as sources for their project.

32:18.36

katenarita

Mm-hmm

32:19.54

Ryan

And so like a student was doing a speech related um ah topic years ago. And so I connected him with my wife, a speech language pathologist who helped answer some of his questions and provide information for that he used as facts, you know, for facts in his project.

32:36.95

katenarita

That's incredible So you mentioned and I didn't catch the full name that this idea came ah about the same time of the book something birth What did you say about that?

32:47.81

Ryan

the uh the idea sorry the idea for the which project oh no sorry the birth of our son uh so our son

32:51.52

katenarita

For Ross Sims Picture Day Pustine, you said you it was like collating with this in conjunction with the, maybe the release of a different book or maybe the book that you're writing.

33:03.44

katenarita

Oh, the birth of your son.

33:05.61

Ryan

And so we're like, you know, of course, like collecting and buying and borrowing picture books and board books at the time.

33:05.48

katenarita

Okay.

33:12.45

Ryan

And so that was just extra motivation for me to, you know, to be kind of diving into the world of children's literature.

33:20.06

katenarita

Got it. And how old is your son now?

33:22.54

Ryan

Seven.

33:23.36

katenarita

Okay. Okay. So that's great. So you can actually read this book with him.

33:27.57

Ryan

Yes, in fact, this is a really wild story that just happened this past week.

33:28.28

katenarita

yeah

33:33.98

Ryan

he So our kids, um we have two. We have our son, who's seven, and our daughter, who's five. And so they're both in that picture book, you know, reading age, which is wonderful.

33:44.93

Ryan

It has been really special.

33:45.12

katenarita

Yeah.

33:48.00

Ryan

But anyway, our son had picture day on Tuesday.

33:53.42

katenarita

No way.

33:53.86

Ryan

And without our prompting, and I'm kid you not, like this is not something we encouraged or even talked about, he's declared the day before that he was going to go to school and wear the pustine for picture day.

34:05.93

Ryan

Because we haven't.

34:06.12

katenarita

I love it.

34:06.45

Ryan

We haven't been wearing our dad's pustine because I have been using it for book events. um like, you know, talking like school visits and and, you know, readings at bookstores and things like that. And he wore it. He did he really did. He wore it for picture day. um And he was still wearing it it at the end of the day. And he said, just like in the book, after After our teacher read the books, I had sent a copy too good to his teacher so she would understand why he was wearing that. And he he said, everybody wanted to wear it. And so it took turns wearing it. And so I was like, oh my goodness, this is like this wild moment of real life imitating art, imitating real life. So it was really kind of a special and poignant thing that happened just this past week.

35:47.78

katenarita

Okay. Wow, your heart must like still be overflowing from that. I mean, what an amazing experience. I mean, in so many different ways. One, that he wanted to honor this you know this family artifact that you have.

36:01.48

katenarita

Two, that he was you know motivated by your book.

36:02.19

Ryan

Yeah.

36:04.62

katenarita

And three, that he had the same experience that your father had and that Rostam has in the book. That's incredible.

36:12.28

Ryan

I know. it's it's I'm still kind of reeling from that one. it was kind of unreal.

36:18.96

katenarita

Wow, I'm i am so excited for you. that just What a moment. like that That is something you'll remember for like the rest of your life with just complete and utter joy.

36:25.59

Ryan

Yes. and what Absolutely. And now we're like like counting down the days until we see the picture. And so, yeah, I'll so i'll send it to you when we get it.

36:39.55

katenarita

Oh yes, please. Oh my gosh. When do you get the picture?

36:44.98

Ryan

I said three to four weeks, which I was like, what yeah, I know torture.

36:49.05

katenarita

You need to make a chain, like a countdown chain, okay? How many days till the picture comes home and cut one off each day?

36:54.54

Ryan

you can't make that

36:55.36

katenarita

Oh my gosh.

36:59.60

katenarita

Wow, that is so exciting.

37:02.19

Ryan

Yeah. really

37:02.83

katenarita

Well, it took me a long time to have my picture book come out. And when it did, my kids were, let's see, it was 2018. So one was 17 and one was 15, like six foot and six foot three.

37:10.16

Ryan

yeah

37:13.03

katenarita

And i I shared it with them, but it wasn't quite the same experience.

37:16.05

Ryan

and

37:18.53

Ryan

Exactly. he Understood. Yup.

37:21.34

katenarita

But I did make my poor, my poor 15 year old six foot three son sit next to me on the couch while I read it to him. He was like, oh my goodness. I was like, no, no, you you have to sit here because I wanted to do this, you know, for like the past 13, 14, 15 years.

37:29.28

Ryan

said

37:36.87

katenarita

So he humored me.

37:37.33

Ryan

Exactly. That's amazing. know The horror of Havoc Missit as I know.

37:42.82

katenarita

Yeah. Yeah.

37:44.29

Ryan

Yup.

37:44.76

katenarita

And listen to your mother read to you, but he he humored me.

37:48.36

Ryan

I love that.

37:50.63

katenarita

So how do you balance everything? And one more thing I just want to say before I move on to that.

37:56.62

Ryan

Yeah.

37:56.80

katenarita

One thing that we haven't talked about that I think is so important in the 21st century school library is how much you collaborate with people.

38:06.07

Ryan

Yeah.

38:06.45

katenarita

um And you talk about that collaboration for learning.

38:07.25

Ryan

Yeah.

38:09.79

katenarita

And I just i do really want to talk about that before

38:14.13

Ryan

Yeah.

38:13.96

katenarita

before we just dig more into everything else because, and I guess actually kind of does segue with my question because it just seems like you went above and beyond when you were in the library. and i' I've been in education for a long time and i've I've never had a librarian leave a book on my desk saying, hey, I think your class would really enjoy reading this. Or hey, I think this would be um you know a great book for you know student acts to read.

38:38.92

katenarita

So um I guess in my question about how do you balance everything, I'd love to hear about that piece too, like not just the writing and I know you're at a coach now, but like

38:39.40

Ryan

Yeah.

38:50.05

Ryan

yeah

38:50.00

katenarita

how How do you balance everything? you know How are you finding the time to do that extra right of like putting a book you know on a teacher's desk or like for a student? and And for you, you probably don't view it as extra.

39:01.74

katenarita

But I guess for me, I'm using that word extra because I haven't experienced that.

39:04.48

Ryan

Yeah. I see. Yeah, I think for me, at when I was in schools full-time, which I was for, I think, 14 years. I thrived on the connection with other teachers, and with kids of course, but also like that was a big part, and I didn't mention this earlier, but the the opportunities for collaboration was a big part of why I transitioned from teaching English to the library. Because I saw in other schools, and to some extent in my own,

39:38.82

Ryan

that the librarian was able to kind of co-teach and to you know collaborate on various projects and that was very appealing to me and again and and work with different grade levels too like so I liked the idea of being able to kind of broaden my horizons a little bit and and just And again, I was energized by working with other educators in that way. And so that was, yeah, it kind of was a natural extension of like, knowing what was happening in a fourth grade classroom, what unit they were studying in language arts, and, you know, recognizing that this book that I had just ordered would it be a great fit for, um,

40:28.50

Ryan

You know that that particular unit in fourth grade for example, and I think I also had a not so hidden agenda of Trying to help and this is like I think lots of schools are are guilty of this um but you know a lot of times Teachers are using books that have been taught time and time and time again have been around for decades and some of the lots of those books are wonderful and I think You know, again, part of my not so secret agenda was to kind of introduce as many contemporary voices into ah school curriculum.

41:07.59

katenarita

Yeah. And some of those books are wonderful, but as you also said in your book, right, some of those books make children feel unheard, unseen, or at worst unsafe. And so, you know, so it's that too, of not just broadening the books that are being used, but also, you know, creating that more inclusive environment.

41:17.12

Ryan

Right.

41:27.86

katenarita

And so,

41:28.80

Ryan

absolutely Yep, yep, that's exactly right.

41:33.96

katenarita

Okay. So then how, ah how, what does your creative process look like with balance and everything? And you have young kids too. And that's, that's another piece to balance. So how, like, what do your days look like both when you were in the library, but also now as an academic coach?

41:50.10

Ryan

um Well, it's interesting. So I transitioned to this new role, like I started my own LLC when I moved up here, when our family moved up here. We're in Maine currently, we have been in the greater Boston area where I've been teaching at independent schools for a while. And now when I transitioned up here,

42:07.24

Ryan

um you know, i'm I'm supporting students and, you know, offering enrichment for students and students are at school during the day. So my schedule has basically flipped where, you know, when I taught in schools, I would write in the early morning or late afternoons, evenings. And now it's it's I'm writing during the day and working with students in the evenings. um And yeah, it's a lot, of course, like, I mean, young children are a lot.

42:35.07

Ryan

um But I think i I've prioritized the writing because it's been, and ah you know to use the term I used a minute ago, yeah know it's been energizing for me. like i I've always enjoyed it, and now that I'm doing it in a you know more kind of consistent and to some extent professional way,

42:58.48

Ryan

um it's just it's ah It feels like the momentum has been building and I just want to i enjoy keeping it going.

43:07.90

katenarita

So when you were in the library, were you writing every morning before school or did you have a more flexible you know approach to it? Because different I've found that different people really come up at it from different ways. And I think it's helpful for people to hear each person's experience. Because I think sometimes we get in a way of ah way of thinking, you know a fixed mindset, oh, it has to be this way. And so um I just like to hear everyone's process as much as possible.

43:32.16

Ryan

Yeah, i I would say my process has, to your point, been all over the place over the years. I would go through periods where I would write a ton in the mornings or in the evenings. Mornings are usually the time when I i write because my brain feels really fresh and you know and I feel alert whereas like after a day of teaching or a day in a school in any role um I feel like it just kind of can be quite drained emotionally, um physically, <unk> etc.

44:09.20

katenarita

Yeah.

44:10.37

Ryan

But I would go through spurts I would say like where I would when I was really excited about a particular piece I was working on I would you know work on it in every you know waking moment that was ah like an opportunity for me to write. um And I suppose as the years have gone on and again kind of going back to the idea of building momentum as a writer, I feel like I've just kind of naturally found myself building in time and being more consistent in my routine with it. Because it is true, and i lots of people have spoken about this and wrote about this, but if you can stay as consistent with consistent with it as you can, it being you know making time to write, you do just develop more ideas and obviously you you strengthen your your skills as well in the process.

45:03.20

katenarita

Yeah, definitely. So I want to go back to something you said earlier about when you were writing Ross Dam's Picture Day Pustine, how at first when you wrote it, you didn't you know you didn't leave any space for the illustrator that it took you between like one to two years to whittle down the text. And I'm wondering if you had like, aha moments, like during that time, I mean, or do you feel like it was just gradual, but when you look back, there must have been you must have had like times where where you felt like the manuscript did, or maybe you didn't. and Maybe you just felt it was just like these incremental steps of the manuscript getting better and better, or were there steps where you felt like, oh wow, this revision, there's a big change from last time.

45:41.95

Ryan

Yeah, you know, I think it was definitely mostly the incremental changes that you spoke of.

45:47.59

katenarita

Okay.

45:48.63

Ryan

There's also um because, as I shared i I had shared the manuscript with so many different people I got so many different, you know, so much conflicting feedback.

46:00.89

katenarita

Yeah.

46:01.43

Ryan

over the years. And I think what I ended up doing, like this is one of those things where it's an aha moment kind of upon reflection. It wasn't something necessarily that I realized at the time. um But I think I just realized that I knew what the story should be. And I had to, to the best of my a ability to stay true to that. And so for like to get a little bit more specific with that,

46:31.00

Ryan

Like I got some feedback from a number of people that there should be, that there wasn't enough like tension in the story that like perhaps like the other kids, I don't remember, I'm sure so several people said this explicitly.

46:48.46

Ryan

Like there should, be like some of the other kids should like give him a hard time about it.

46:52.44

katenarita

Yeah.

46:52.65

Ryan

He needs to be more stressed or, Yeah, stressed by the students reactions. And I was like, well, that's not I was like, honor, you know, this is a fictionalized account of my dad's experience, of course. So I had like, plenty of room, I had all the freedom in the world to do whatever I wanted with the story. But I also wanted to stay true to the essence of my dad's experience. And that was like, nobody, nobody made fun of him or bullied him about it. And so I had to figure out how to And so I i wanted to stay true to that.

47:23.08

Ryan

Ultimately I realized, and I also had to figure out how to like make it work as a story because most stories do need some form of tension to work, um, effectively.

47:35.40

katenarita

Yeah, I think there's tension in there. and you And you also did a great job, I think, in the you know how the book is you know the manuscript that we see when we read it.

47:37.85

Ryan

Yeah.

47:43.30

katenarita

There's that moment of silence right where we don't know how the classmates are going to respond.

47:49.65

Ryan

Yes.

47:49.68

katenarita

So I think that for me as a reader, like I did feel like the tension was there. There's a lot of tension. you know the night before the picture day, the the morning of the picture day, you know getting out of the car.

47:56.14

Ryan

No.

48:01.07

katenarita

So I think there is tension. And I think what you said in the author's note is extremely important, right? That we also need to show stories where there isn't that resistance, where there is just celebration of difference.

48:14.77

katenarita

And we don't we don't see those enough. And I think particularly you know um particularly in the primary grades, that happens a lot.

48:17.61

Ryan

Right.

48:24.15

katenarita

you know i think um I think, unfortunately, you know through systemic racism, we're taught more and more to be suspicious of difference.

48:24.86

Ryan

Yeah.

48:35.96

katenarita

But I think that you know we really have an opportunity in those primary grades to celebrate difference without that

48:36.71

Ryan

Right.

48:43.99

katenarita

without that tension. I'm not saying there's not tension in the primary grades. I am in no way whatsoever saying that at all.

48:47.81

Ryan

Yeah.

48:49.43

katenarita

I'm just saying that I think that you know children in that four to eight range, which is what the picture books are are more open than many older children to celebrating difference, at least on the surface.

48:56.12

Ryan

yeah

49:03.38

Ryan

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think it's all about curiosity, right? Like, and so that's what I try to communicate or show through the words in the book that like the other kids were curious. Like you were, yeah, you're wondering as the reader how they're going to respond, but they lead with curiosity. Like, you know, they're asking questions about it and after they see it. um And I do think that's true to your point about, you know, how primary age or elementary age students kind of respond to the world. They're kind of naturally curious and the judgments don't always come as quickly as they might when they're older.

49:42.19

katenarita

Yeah. Lead with curiosity. That's going to be my mantra for the rest of the year. Thank you for that.

49:46.03

Ryan

Mine too.

49:49.53

katenarita

So it is such a gorgeous day here and our time is running short. I want to make sure that I'd love to hear from you, which books do you think, you know, elementary library should have? And I'm sure really your list is like 500 to a thousand books long. And you know, we don't have that kind of time, but I do think we know what you said is really important. We want as much as we can to have an updated school library. So when you think of books that you recently read, what books would you like to see in the elementary libraries?

50:18.18

Ryan

So if you don't mind, I'm going to include some middle grade books too. So like and I think like fifth graders would definitely be able to read these. um Absolutely.

50:26.20

katenarita

Oh, definitely, please, please.

50:28.38

Ryan

All right. Yeah. So i'm I'm thinking of four specific books that I've read, you know, fairly recently, each of them that would make great additions to classrooms. And I'll start with the picture books. One is called My Strange Shrinking Parents by Zeno Sorter. And that one is So, I, you know, Rossdom is a immigration book in many ways, and this is um my strange drinking parents is is a book about immigration, um but a very different one and so beautifully done. um And yeah, definitely check that one out and then a very recent one.

51:08.00

Ryan

that I loved, that would be really fun for story times in elementary school. It's called, We Are Definitely Human. It's actually right behind you here by X-Bang. And this one is,

51:22.45

Ryan

just you know tender and hilarious and quite unique, both with the the story and the illustrations as well. So I really love that. And then in terms of middle grade, there's a book by an author friend of mine that they got lots of starred reviews and it's just a great book for teaching. It's called The Remarkable Rescue at Milkweed Meadow and that one's by Elaine Demopolis. And so that's just a ah really fun animal story that middle grade readers and some advanced

52:01.12

Ryan

kind of upper elementary school readers would really love. And the other one is, I read this a few years ago, but it's remains probably my favorite middle grade book. And that's Everything Sad is Untrue by Daniel Nairi. And that I feel like is such a perfect, this is actually one of those books that I put on a teacher's desk and was like, you should totally consider teaching this one.

52:24.86

Ryan

Um, cause I feel like it's a perfect book for incorporating into a middle school English curriculum as it's literary. And it's a lot of fun to read for kids and adults. So yeah, those are the four that, um, those are my four recommendations.

52:40.59

katenarita

All right. Well, thanks very much. I, I know about everything sad is untrue, but I haven't heard of the other three. So I always, I always love, you know, promoting books that are, you know, that are older than people should have, but also like newer books too.

52:45.81

Ryan

Yeah. Yep.

52:51.92

katenarita

So thank you very much.

52:52.68

Ryan

absolutely ye

52:53.83

katenarita

So we talked a lot about the passion project. I do want to ask, are there like other activities that you think people could use in their library or their classrooms, you know, like writing activities that are beneficial for students?

52:57.51

Ryan

Yeah.

53:06.19

Ryan

but Yeah, um one kind of approach or activity that I use all the time is when you want students to write a creative piece to find a list of at least three to four age-appropriate writing prompts for each for students. Like the website Readsy, R-E-E-D-S-Y, has lots of great options. And then read the prompts to the students one at a time, giving them anywhere between like three and four minutes to begin responding to each of them.

53:36.13

Ryan

And then they can choose which beginning that they're most excited about and continue writing that one. It's a really simple and fantastic way for students who are struggling with figuring out what to write about. um And it's also kind of going back to that idea of helping students kind of lean into their natural interest and what they're most excited about.

54:02.50

Ryan

and so Yeah, that's that's one that i I use regularly in the classroom and I continue to use in my academic coaching practice as well.

54:12.84

katenarita

That sounds really interesting. Do you try to pick, when you're picking the prompts, do you try to takeck pick like four really different prompts? or like what's like you know What has been your experience with that in terms of the different prompts that you've chosen?

54:21.69

Ryan

Yeah. yeah

54:25.30

katenarita

like I'm sure there's been some surprising, like, oh wow, like look at that.

54:30.30

Ryan

Yeah, I do try to vary them. I mean, and you can take it, you can use this if you're asking them to write like a personal essay, which a lot of schools do. Like a lot of teachers will have students write like personal essays or short memoir type writing pieces. And so you can like come up with a list of questions related to like having students reflect on their life. um And that actually, this is a great exercise for that also because you know, anyone who has taught English or language arts to upper elementary middle schoolers or high schoolers knows that there are always those students who say, well, I'm only 14. Nothing interesting has happened in my life.

55:11.22

Ryan

And you're like, no way.

55:11.48

katenarita

Yeah.

55:13.44

Ryan

You have all of this life experience so far. And it may not be as much as mine or the other adults in the building. um But you have had some scary things happen to you. You've had some really amazing, exciting things happen to you.

55:26.55

Ryan

um And so like you know just having questions that um are, you know, that kind of draw that out of them is is really helpful. And the same with with, um um you know, fiction writing, you can come up with a a list. I always like i I try to be mindful of the student or group of students and their age and their interests when I'm putting together a list of the questions to, you know,

55:52.06

Ryan

before we even start. So I should say that too. It's not just like a random list of questions, but it's going to be as purposeful as possible with what the prompts are.

55:56.70

katenarita

Now,

56:01.02

Ryan

And of course they're going to work with some of them and others they're not.

56:01.16

katenarita

right.

56:04.10

Ryan

And that's the point. It's just like, which one did you connect with the most? um And that can be the one that you pursue for writing a longer piece.

56:12.85

katenarita

Yeah. One of the things you said there made me wonder if you choose like by emotions, you said, you know, scary, amazing, exciting. So are you sometimes, would you sometimes choose those prompts? Like, Oh, like this prompt might feel scary.

56:24.47

katenarita

This prompt might feel sad. I'm just, cause that's, that would be interesting too.

56:27.76

Ryan

Yeah.

56:30.46

Ryan

Yeah, definitely. like I've taken that approach. like i I actually just pulled out some of my personal essay writing prompts that I've like pulled from. These are not unique. I've pulled these from so many different places over the years.

56:42.43

Ryan

um like Some examples would be write about one of the most serious conflicts you've ever been involved in.

56:42.32

katenarita

Yeah.

56:49.38

Ryan

Or write about a time you took a big chance and what the result was. or write about your most memorable birthday, write about someone you miss and the last time you saw that person.

57:03.59

Ryan

for older students it might be like write about an experience with your first crush or I love this one, write about questions that you have for the universe. And so um yeah, I mean, just again, knowing your audience and knowing your students and then you know putting together an interesting list of questions that you think would probably yield so them having some interesting things to say.

57:29.80

katenarita

Well, I love that idea. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. And um thank you so much for your time today. Before we go, what's one thing that's been bringing you joy other than that huge, amazing experience you had this week with your son and picture day.

57:36.84

Ryan

Yeah.

57:42.87

katenarita

I mean, oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever. It's hard to top that, but still let's keep the joy going.

57:46.65

Ryan

yeah

57:48.97

Ryan

Let's keep the joy going, for sure. um Two things I would say. So i I go for a daily run. That definitely helps bring me joy in that it's a great stress reliever. I often have ideas for writing.

58:05.12

Ryan

as I'm running. And so I always run with my phone and I probably look like, you know, there's something, like like I'm just like browsing the internet sometimes as I'm running, but I'm often i'm often taking notes in the notes app um for ideas that had just come you know come to me. But anyway, running in general brings me joy. And then the other thing is,

58:30.78

Ryan

from I just finished this this week. It came out a few years ago, but I just read it every tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow by Gabrielle Zeben. This is one of my favorite books that I've read in recent memory. And so that was like weeping. Speaking of running, I listened to the audio book for a good amount of it, including the end. It was just like, you know,

58:52.57

Ryan

Weeping basically at the end of one of my runs after listening to the you know a chapter toward the end of the book and it was just so moving and so beautiful and I highly recommend it to anybody everybody listening and ah If you're looking for a great new book

59:11.12

katenarita

Well, that's amazing. I have an hour long commute, so I'll put that on my Libby request and maybe I won't have, maybe I'll have to listen to the end when I'm at home instead of driving if I'm going to weep.

59:20.07

Ryan

yeah don't do it like yeahs

59:23.93

katenarita

All right. Well, thank you, Ryan. Enjoy the rest of this gorgeous day with your family. And thanks so much for being with us today.

59:29.91

Ryan

Thank you so much, Kate. Thank you so much for having me.

59:31.96

katenarita

All right. Take care.

59:33.56

Ryan

You too. Bye.

59:34.88

katenarita

Bye.