Eugene (00:01)
Hi everyone, this is Eugene. we're back on the podcast with friend Philippe Pourhashemi, writer, critic, editor. And we're here to discuss the spring summer twenty twenty seven menswear season that recently wrapped up and nearly killed us with heat strokes. But yet here we are doing this for whatever reason. I don't know. Welcome Philippe.

philippe (00:29)
I know we love paying Eugene, thanks for having me. I'm glad we survived though, because it was tough. It was very tough.

Eugene (00:36)
Yeah, it was. I mean, there is no point in complaining about this anymore. You know, we've already we've commiserated Plancy. And I feel like also I've been reading the same article for the past two weeks. Like, when will Europe get air conditioning? And but anyway, weather notwithstanding, which really

philippe (00:51)
Hehehehehe

Eugene (00:58)
did make everything incredibly hard. what were your first impressions of the season?

philippe (01:07)
I would say that overall I was fairly unstimulated by the collections that I saw and found the season rather bland and lacking innovation to be honest and also you could sense that you know besides the heat and everything there's also a lot of fear at the moment and people are hesitant to take creative risks so that came across.

quite strongly this season. What did you think? How did you feel the atmosphere was for you?

Eugene (01:44)
Yeah, I felt quite similarly. well, first of all, I mean I I I have to say again, like the weather put such a damper on things and like I kept missing show and appointments because every day in Paris from like two to six PM I just had to go back to the hotel and, you know, cool off and cool down because I I had to take care of my well being first, you know, myself. So

And yes, it felt similar. what I keep saying, what I've been saying for the past couple of years is that I see a lot of beautiful clothes and I don't see a lot of fashion. So, you know, if I wanted to dress well, there are plenty of options, right? If you want a nice jacket, a nice pair of pants, a shirt, whatever, there are many beautiful things.

But there is very little in terms of creative vision and in terms of unique voices. And I wrote this in this in my newsletter this week. You know, I said there's no one left to root for, and a conversation I've been having with various people, and I think you and I had this conversation as well, is that there used to be tribes that wanted to belong to designers' vision.

You know, that were willing to participate in designer's vision, right? So there was a Yoji tribe and a Rei tribe and an Ann Demeulemeester tribe, Helmut Lang, Rick, etc. You know, all the way to Hedi Slimane and we can even say Demna here, right? Because he did have a tribe, you know, whether we like it or not, and we don't, fine. and it increasingly feels like okay, whose vision

Can I buy into if I see fashion as an expression of something deeper? As opposed to I want to buy a nice coat.

philippe (03:50)
Yeah, I mean the problem is that you know very often you are faced with collections that lack confidence, collections where too many people are involved and you know there's too much commerciality.

into them as well. mean, that's an undeniable fact that if you start pleasing everybody, then you please no one. And you're not convincing as a designer. And this kind of nervousness of not knowing how to find that balance between commerce and creativity is quite obvious at the moment because you see that a lot. And you see also designers not being able to find a direction.

Eugene (04:14)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

philippe (04:35)
at

many brands, you know, and you feel that kind of lack of a cohesive vision, as you said. And I think without that, you cannot have creativity. I mean, you cannot have something that resonates and inspires. And as you said, gathers people around your brand. So, you know, there is that phenomenon. And then on the other hand, I think that too many brands start looking like each other and they are too many brands, in fact, on the market.

Eugene (05:02)
Mm-hmm.

philippe (05:03)
and too many brands doing fashion shows. So you're left with this increasing feeling of, you know, generic sameness across the board. And that's also a huge problem right now, I think in the industry, you know.

Eugene (05:16)
Yeah. Yeah,

yeah, I agree. And to me the most emblematic designer of this is Michael Ryder at Celine. I mean this guy has no point of view at all.

philippe (05:29)
No, it's everything and nothing. And I couldn't believe the hype around it. I found it absolutely ridiculous because if you really look at the show carefully and the silhouettes of the show, it's baggy, skinny, know, short, long, printed black, whatever. It's everything and nothing. And somehow, because it looks nicely styled, people are screaming genius, you know, on the rooftops. And I'm like, what's going on here? Like, what is this? You know, it's just like...

Eugene (05:55)
Yeah.

philippe (05:57)
instant reactions to something that has absolutely no substance, you know, and that's what is lacking precisely. It's a very good example that you pulled that collection is a very strong linear, you know, self-assured point of view and a silhouette that a designer is pushing because they believe in it. You know, that's also something that we don't really see anymore, you know, on a lot of runways. Yeah.

Eugene (06:02)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And I I also a couple of people said, you know, take a look at Celine and I did, and I'm like, Are we looking at the same collection? Like, what's going on? You know, I mean and it's exactly what you said. If you put that into Dior, Louis Vuitton, or Givenchy, like nobody you know, it could be anything. And those collections could be anything. And if you go to the stores

philippe (06:33)
Yeah, no, I know. I know.

Eugene (06:51)
It's all the same stuff just with a different logo on it. You know, everything is acne. This is what I'm saying. G

philippe (06:55)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, which.

Yeah, and Acne

is doing better than all of them. That's the thing, because one thing that I noticed talking about Acne Studios, which by the way is celebrating 30 years in fashion this year, is how they had a corner, huge corners in every department store. And actually I talked to a few people and the product is selling. It is selling. French people buy it I was completely surprised because if you look at the price point.

Eugene (07:04)
Mm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

philippe (07:26)
I mean, a pair of acne jeans used to be like 200 euros, now they're 600. It's like, it's absolutely normal. So you're thinking, wow, they really, I think these brands sort of in a way, know, they profit from the sameness of luxury and they profit from, you know, this kind of fatigue that everybody has. And somehow they manage to show something that feels a little different.

Eugene (07:31)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah.

philippe (07:54)
of

fresh and that explains their commercial success.

Eugene (07:58)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the brilliant

merchandisers there always were. Like every time I would go into acne, which would be only when somebody dragged me into acne. but I would be like, they're really good at merchandising. Yeah, because they are and this is why I'm saying everything has become acne. because acne studios was always for fashion adjacent, right? They were for this like city boys and girls.

Who want to be stylish don't really want to stand out, you know, they don't really want to take risks, but they want something cool. And so everything it they know if they go to acne, it's pre-vetted for them, right? And if you go in there, you know, if you want a perfecto jacket, they have one. If you want a denim jacket, they have one. If you want an Oxford shirt, they have one. A pair of jeans, yes, a pair of sneakers.

And it was like boom boom boom boom boom boom. Like it's absolutely anything you want, they would have. And this is how pretty much every luxury brand boutique feels today.

philippe (09:07)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Eugene (09:10)
Anyway, shall we start with the Pizzi? Because there were a couple of things that we liked, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the one I liked is the one I saw first, and it was a really pleasant surprise, is the Gian Gian Kim from Korea. That was very cool. So for those who didn't see it, it is he's a designer who works by a slow aging process, basically letting the sun burn.

philippe (09:16)
Petey Punks and Simon Rocha.

Yes, yes, yes, that was beautiful.

Eugene (09:40)
Bleach the dye of the garments. and he does it for various amounts of time. So coat could be aged for like, you know, three days in the sun or twenty five days, and they arrange the garments in a certain way, so the sun falls in a certain way. And what came out was really cool, no? Yeah, yeah.

philippe (10:01)
Yeah, it was beautiful. Really nice. And

it felt like, you know, very individual pieces with character and personality. It just didn't feel like, this is another concept. It actually looked really good as a garment. know, so definitely. Yeah.

Eugene (10:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

yeah. So that was neat. And it's hard to see something like that makes you go, wow, this is innovative. Like this is this feels new. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that was pretty cool. And as for the rest, I wasn't too keen on the rest of the presentations. I I actually did surprise myself by

philippe (10:25)
wow, there's an idea here. Shocking.

Eugene (10:44)
not disliking Simone Rochelle. I neither really liked it but I didn't dislike it either because she toned down this kind of effeminateness for men and I think there was more of a balance there, no?

philippe (10:48)
Me too. Yeah, yeah.

Exactly. I thought the tailoring was a bit more subdued. As you say, it felt less girly than usual, you know, which was a relief coming from her because I'm sick and tired of all the kind of fufu and gimmicks and little bits of feather and et cetera, you know. So that was kind of gone. that sort of all went to Dries now. So it's really, you know, what was toned down for Simone Roche happened at Dries, you know, and

Eugene (11:23)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

philippe (11:30)
And we can discuss that later on, but it's sort of what happens also when you share the same stylist for menswear. know, there's, yeah, yeah, it's, it's Robbie, Robbie Spencer. So, you know, obviously I don't know what happened with Dries, but that was a collection that I found very difficult to, to handle. But yeah, it's the styling at Simon Rocha felt more masculine this time actually, and more pared down. And at Dries it felt

Eugene (11:37)
is that what's happening?

Yeah.

Mm.

philippe (11:58)
much more feminine than usual.

Eugene (12:00)
Yeah.

I see. They don't know it was Robbie Spencer. Because Robbie Spencer was also Sebastian Mignier stylist at Anzy Millimister. And that was really feminine. That was like when we all turned away from and were like, Okay, well there's nothing to buy here. so there's the same danger with drees, but we'll get to that. so yeah, Simon Rocher was not bad and I was like pinching myself. I was like, Are you really feeling this reaction? Like it's

philippe (12:16)
Yeah, true, true.

Eugene (12:28)
And I was like, no, actually it it seemed fine. And then I found Keninamiya's DSM rather disappointing, to be honest.

philippe (12:39)
Yeah,

that was kind of harmless. I mean, it was really funny seeing these models playing punk and trying to scare us because they were like just, you know, these little like young sweet things trying to look a bit scary. So there was a little bit of acting going on there. But in a way, I mean, I have to say it was a bit cringy at times, but at the same time, they were trying to do something a bit different. So the I mean, the location was nice. I have to say it was nice to see a show at PT.

Eugene (12:48)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

philippe (13:09)
in the middle of the night. I quite liked that. It was like a different vibe. And then when you looked at some of the clothing, you were like, yeah, I could imagine that on Nick Wooster, you know, it would be perfect on him. Like all these, that was totally him. Like the skirts and the zippers and the jackets and everything. So commercially, I'm sure it's going to do really well, you know, because it was like a no brainer. But of course, if you're trying to sell me punk again,

Eugene (13:11)
Mm.

Yeah. Ac absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

philippe (13:36)
you know, after like 40 years, it just gets, it just gets a little tired, you know, but then again, okay, there might be somebody who's like 19 and discovering it for the first time and that might provoke something. So you never know. You never know.

Eugene (13:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah yeah

exactly. And that's who it was for. I mean we were not the intended audience for this, you know, like that's you know, it g it's gone straight. Yeah, besides Nick. Nick loved it when we talked about it. He was like, I was yeah, it's totally you. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I mean, yeah, again, like it was fine, but yeah, those kids were like, I was like, I wanna buy you a gelato.

philippe (13:54)
No, besides Nick. But exactly. Yeah, but Nick is forever young, so he can rock it.

They were pretty pretty. Yeah,

let me take you to the press restaurant. Let me treat you. Yeah, know it was funny. It's funny.

Eugene (14:19)
Yeah.

anyway, but

still I I'm I'm I'm glad I went to Pitsy. I wasn't planning to, and I'm still thinking I may cut Pity down to once a year because the trade fair itself also felt a little you know quite subdued. Quite

philippe (14:44)
You know what I kept

thinking during the season? was like, maybe we should start with Paris actually earlier, do Milan, which nobody cares about and it's three days anyway, and then finish with Pitti. I thought, it'd be quite nice to end the season in Florence, you know. Yeah.

Eugene (14:59)
One hundred percent. There

is no question to me, I mean again going back to the weather, and I'm just gonna say it out loud because that's what everyone is thinking. calendar needs to move. i if Paris insists on disregarding climate change, then move the dates. You know

philippe (15:11)
Yeah, definitely.

And you

know, it was not just climate change that Paris was disregarding, it's actually our health and our well-being. The number of shows where people had to sit in the sun, you know, like over 42 degrees and sitting there, I thought that was really disrespectful and that was really insulting. And you know, nobody wants that. I mean, it's not worth it, right? A fashion show is not worth that kind of inconvenience and that kind of physical...

Eugene (15:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. No.

philippe (15:49)
strains so come on you know do something about it yeah

Eugene (15:51)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I I think I'm gonna like write an open letter or something. But and I know I mean the pr I think the problem is it will probably throw a wrench into production schedules and getting the samples for designers. But something has to be done. You know, like Yeah yeah. Yeah, it it has to start a couple of weeks early because we catch that heat wave every year and it's like it's like clock clock.

philippe (16:08)
It will have to change. It will have to change. Yeah.

Eugene (16:20)
but I like this idea, the ending in Florence. It's quite lovely. Yeah.

philippe (16:24)
I think it would be wonderful. And I think

actually it could be like the icing on the cake and people would gather after the end of the season and Florence is always more relaxed. There would only be a few shows and I think it would make a lot of sense. yeah, mean the problem right now is Milan. Because Milan has become a desert. Nobody goes there and it's only three days. it's a bit like, yeah, feels a bit...

Eugene (16:36)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah. You're kind of calming down.

Yeah. It was literally

nothing there. I I was I was well I wasn't joking when I said like I go to Milan. Number one reason I go to Milan is so I can take a train to Paris. So I don't have to fly. You know. I just went to two things. I went to the Setu Show and I went to Massimo Alba showroom presentation and that was that.

philippe (17:05)
Yeah.

Eugene (17:17)
And thank God because it was already a heat wave, so it's like I'm just gonna be at my hotel. Like I can't I can't I cannot do this.

philippe (17:27)
And did you have aircrew on the train?

Eugene (17:30)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, thank you. I mean it it's it got in forty five minutes late, I think, b because probably of the heat, but there was air conditioning and and one thing and I have I have learned I now get a hotel in Paris every single time, no more Airbnbs since the pandemic. And people were truly suffering. Those who got Airbnbs, you know, because they had no AC, like they could the I

philippe (17:31)
Okay, okay.

Okay, nice.

Mm-hmm.

Eugene (17:58)
met people, they look like zombies. Like 'cause they're like, We haven't slept in days. Yeah.

philippe (18:00)
Yeah, you just couldn't sleep. No, you just couldn't

sleep. No, no, I mean, I was in that situation. I rented an apartment with a balcony thinking, that's going to be enough. But actually, it wasn't. And there was just, you know, a shitty fan in the apartment. And that was it. But I mean, I had to book something last minute anyway. But you know what I was thinking? I was really thinking, OK, if it's going to be like this next year and they're not changing the dates, I'm only coming for two or three days and then I'm gone.

Eugene (18:28)
Yeah,

philippe (18:28)
You know, there

Eugene (18:29)
yeah.

philippe (18:29)
is no way I'm doing the entire thing. No way. No.

Eugene (18:31)
No, no, no, no. Yeah,

I agree. Anyway, yeah, so Milan, I mean, not even worth talking about. Like the Satya show was okay. He he doesn't need a show. It's one of those brands where he should do a presentation and I understand why he does a show. So all the people can record on their phones and put it on the Instagram, which is what people do shows now for. But I you know, his Satoshi's clothes are so intelligent.

Like they need closer examination. And the entire show I think it was like even barely twenty looks in that show. And I was like kinda like it's not, you know, there's no point. It it was it has showroom. We almost all died from heat exhaustion. And I'm like, you don't Yeah. But anyway, so that was that. And I guess there was Prada, which was, you know, helmet.

philippe (19:19)
Yeah. No.

Which was what?

mean, which was just like skinny gap jeans and crop leather jackets. And it was like, look, we're doing something else than everybody else. And it was like, okay, like, wow, it's skinny. And then it was like, goodbye. Thank you.

Eugene (19:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Lot yeah, I mean

Lat very of course we know Helmut Lang derivative, Eddie Slimann derivative.

philippe (19:50)
Yeah and also Eugene who wants to wear skinny leather pants when it's 45 degrees I mean I'm sorry hello you know I mean let's yeah I mean that's the opposite you don't want anything touching your skin you know when it's like that

Eugene (19:57)
Yeah, there is also that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I get the logic. I think, you know, Ruff has always been good at trying to push news new or actually, you know, old slash new silhouette again and I think that's what he's trying to do. It just doesn't doesn't come through, you know.

philippe (20:24)
No, because it doesn't feel that original. mean, for us that have experienced Hedi Slimane and all this kind of aesthetics, I mean, it's not particularly new and there's nothing transgressive about it, you know. And then it's always sort of wrapped up in like faux intellectualism, know, everything they do as if it was like a huge conceptual statement they were making with whatever. And I'm kind of over it, you know, I'm not really interested, so.

Eugene (20:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

philippe (20:51)
I

don't really take it seriously anymore to be honest with you.

Eugene (20:54)
Yeah,

no, it's it's true. yeah, it's funny. It's like almost in its own bubble, it feels like, right? It's like everybody up everybody applauds and everybody moves on the next day. Like and no one ever talks about it. Whereas before, you know, Rough and then Prado, like people would talk about those collections for days.

philippe (21:02)
Yeah.

No, no exactly.

Yeah, I mean,

and if you think of Prada like 10 years ago, know, she would say, or even 15 years ago, she would set the tone for the entire season. So everybody was waiting for that show thinking, OK, this is what menswear is going to be for the next six months. It's no longer the case, you know. And yeah, it's sort of like, you know, that loss of that loss of power and that loss of influence that you see now in that landscape, because it doesn't really matter, you know, whatever.

Eugene (21:33)
Yeah.

philippe (21:45)
statement they come up with, it's not enough to actually shake things off, know, and change things.

Eugene (21:50)
Yeah.

Yeah yeah yeah. Well, as long as Black Nylon with the Prada Triangle is selling, yeah.

philippe (21:56)
There were big

triangles actually when they turn around you could see the triangles on their back so they were branded like little cows. Branded for consumption.

Eugene (22:00)
Yeah.

Yeah, I yeah.

Yeah.

I know. Anyway, so that was Milan for whatever it's worth. short and sweet, yeah. and then Paris. what did you start with in Paris?

philippe (22:13)
Short and sweet, yes.

Oh my God, I don't even remember. don't know. no, no. Mayor was probably the mayor. Yeah, but I might have seen something else before because I mean, those first days were also really busy. So they happen to be like the hottest days and they were for me really busy with shows and things. So like you, you know, I looked at my schedule and I was like, OK, half of these presentations are going to go down the drain. So going to happen.

Eugene (22:25)
Was Tracy a first thing? No, Lemaire was before.

Mm.

Yeah.

philippe (22:50)
But I still went to a few shows and I was happy to see Le Maire actually again, you know, this time. And I found the show quite poetic, actually, it was quite beautiful. And I stayed there for quite a while afterwards and he was hanging out with his daughter and Michel Gaubert was there with Ryan and everybody was chatting and it was air conditioned. So everyone was happy. But it was a nice, I have to say, was nice to see that show again. I was really, really happy to be there.

Eugene (22:54)
Mm-hmm, no.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I thought it was absolutely beautiful and going back through all the shows, it may have been my favorite. Yeah, yeah. So what I really liked about it and

philippe (23:29)
It was one of the best.

Eugene (23:41)
And I don't want to contrast it too much, but you kind of I think it's fair game because like Aureli and Lemaire are kind of now in a similar situation. it's these like beautiful subdued clothes that people really like and they're both very successful brands. And just having onto Auralie the night before and then seeing La Maire, Lam just the way they

philippe (23:54)
Mm-hmm.

Eugene (24:10)
Put things together and put the show together. It's so different. and the impact is, and it's not the first time I'm seeing it. This show this shows that their clothes are for the people. They're highlighting the individual first. And the clothes exist in the service of the individual. And this is what really shown through this time. It like really hit me.

philippe (24:13)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Eugene (24:40)
I usually it is very rare that I look at models, right? Because I'm concentrated looking at the clothes. and this time, and it's not the first time at La Mer where I'm just like, these people are really like I I want to talk to them. They have an inner life, you know, like like I want to know what they read, right? Or what music that they listen to, what they do for a living. and I kind of and I was like, hmm.

philippe (24:58)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Eugene (25:10)
It would be good for Ourly to look at that closely and also because Ourly is a very beautiful brand, you know, the clothes are really nice. But when it's on the runway, I always feel it loses something. like it could be more. If it's you know, it's just this usual linear presentation, model after model, look after look. and I'm like, mm, there's not enough in the clothes themselves to support that.

There has to be something else.

philippe (25:42)
But I kind of agree because I think at Le Mer there was something very cinematic this season. It was like following people during an entire day. And the mood was changing and the light was changing and the sounds were different and you had rain and then you had sunshine again. All these different emotions. And I think what was beautiful was the subtlety of the silhouette when you look at Christophe's work.

Eugene (25:56)
Mm-hmm.

philippe (26:12)
Christophe and Sarah Lynn together, what they do, it's just very gentle, you know, and it's very, very precise little things that they do, but somehow you're right. You care more about the person, like the person stands out and it's about, you know, character driven fashion and wanting to enter that tribe because there is a Le Mer tribe, definitely, you know, and there is a way to present yourself and there is a way to act in the world.

Eugene (26:17)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

philippe (26:40)
And it's anything but aggressive. It's a very gentle, reasoned, and smart way to put clothes together. So it has a lot of meaning behind it. And I think that kind of subtlety makes his work very, very intriguing. And very beautiful as well. And I think maybe O'Reilly doesn't have the same level of intensity or energy when it comes to the shows.

Eugene (27:07)
Yeah,

yeah. And I feel like it could, you know, like because when you look at the clothes in the showroom, like these are really beautiful, but there's something lacking. I I don't know if they need a new stylist or or or what it is, but switching up the format would also be cool. LeMaire is incredibly precise at controlling their image. It's it's pretty you know, they don't allow outside photographers

I don't think they allow photographers from anyone because I was looking on Tagwalk at all the show photos, and their show photos stand out from you know everything else is like just full frontal. And there's, you know, they're from the side. You can see the mood. They're mostly three-quarter angle. no, it was a really, really good. It was I mean, I like the orally show as well. it was also really lovely. Could have been you know.

philippe (27:49)
Yeah.

Eugene (28:07)
There's some things that did not to be on the runway. Like if they did like seven to ten looks less, it would have been much more coherent. But I could have said it for majority of the shows during Paris Fashion Week. I'm like, stop putting stop putting sixty looks. Stop putting if you can say this in forty instead of fifty, do it. You know, to take George Orwell's advice. If you can cut out the word in a sentence, cut it out.

philippe (28:21)
Yeah, I did.

Hmm.

Definitely.

Eugene (28:37)
just

extrapolated into clothing. but yeah, that was a good start for me. And then you know, the rest of it was fine. But I think it's now a good time to talk about Drees because Drees was I think on the same day or the day after.

philippe (28:55)
Yeah, it was also on the hottest day. So the thing that happened is that once everybody got there, it was later on during the day, but it was like a super hot venue and they were handing out like tons of drinks and ice creams to people, et cetera. But it was still like really, really hot. And, you know, the first loop came out and it was like this kind of peach color trench over these really micro shorts and this kind of like loose blouse.

hanging and I was like, okay, I know exactly where we're going with this one. And for me, was, I don't know what to say, but it was sort of over the minute that it started. I was like, okay, that's, that's not what I expect from, from Julian, you know? So, and then he treated into this like fragile man territory, which I think for me is completely wrong for Dries because I don't see.

Eugene (29:39)
Hm.

philippe (29:51)
the Dries van Noten guy as a girly type. think, know, the Dries van Noten man is so comfortable with his own masculinity that he can wear sequins, bright colors, embroidery, whatever, but he remains masculine even in a skirt. You know, he has this kind of swagger that is manly, you know, and here what really disturbed me seeing all these boys that just look like...

Eugene (29:54)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

philippe (30:16)
prepubescent teenagers and they look like they could break any minute. And I was like, no, there's something about that that bothers me. And then I just could not get past that. I could not get past the feminine details in the show, you know, the strappy tops and the full art tops with open backs and these tiny shorts and the lingerie references and this kind of fragile man. was like, no, I just, no, that's not what I was expecting at all, you know, from.

Eugene (30:21)
Mm.

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I wasn't there. I did not hate the show, but I saw everything what you're talking about. I think seeing it in person was probably worse because when you because I didn't see the backs. And if those were the backs, then yeah. What killed me were those like strappy ballet flats. I was like,

philippe (30:46)
from him. Yeah.

yeah, was also really in bubblegum

pink. I was like, what? I don't know why, but it just rubbed me the wrong way, you know? And the thing is, was a very beautiful collection and the tailoring, the jackets were beautiful. There were so many pieces that, you know, again, you would find from that brand that you would love. But, you know, I just got annoyed by this kind of styling and...

Eugene (31:14)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

philippe (31:34)
And also this portrayal of a man that is very fragile, know, and so delicate, and that just rubbed me the wrong way, you know.

Eugene (31:40)
Hm. They weren't men.

They weren't men. They were little boys. You know, they they were

philippe (31:46)
And I could imagine

women actually loving these clothes, which they already do because they buy dress menswear and everybody loves dress menswear. So I was thinking in a way, okay, and then someone said to me, but this is about that effeminate Asian guy now that is trending and they're trying to, brands want to cater to that market. So they feel they have to do these collections. And I was like, okay, is that what it is?

Eugene (31:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

philippe (32:13)
I don't know, you know, but I was thinking, okay, maybe that's the direction and that's who they're trying to please. But I don't know, it just didn't relate to me at all.

Eugene (32:22)
Yeah, yeah. I don't know.

BCS are all in Stone Island in London for their concert, so may maybe that it does feel that that's moment has passed, right? This whole new masculinity stuff, you know, by which it means, you know, if you know, making men feminine. it does feel like that moment has passed, but it doesn't

feel like like it just passed, but everyone kinda woke up and was like, What were we doing? You know, what was that?

philippe (32:54)
Yeah,

and also, you know what, Eugene, it's not a new idea. It has been going on since the 1930s. You know, it was in a place called Weimar that people were doing that already, you know, in Berlin. And they did it better and they did it more convincingly, you know, and then you have the entire drag culture and Cecil Beaton dressing as a woman and, you know, all of these things. But here it just feels like it's a bit like this testino.

Eugene (33:01)
Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

philippe (33:20)
pictures from the 90s, you know, where he got these hunky models and he put them in like lingerie, you know, and it was supposed to be titillating and a little bit humiliating for these guys, you know, to be dressed this way. And I just find the entire thing for me out of context. And, you know, I don't think masculinity needs this right now. And I just think it just, it just looks like a rehash of old ideas that I've seen already. And you can do something that is very gentle, like a Le Maire show.

Eugene (33:25)
Hm.

No.

Mm.

Yeah.

philippe (33:49)
without becoming girly. You know, there's a fine line between girly and gentle. You know, it's not the same thing.

Eugene (33:51)
Mm-hmm.

I think it's a great example. I haven't thought of it, but it's actually a really great contrast. Or if you do it like Gauthier used to do it with a lot of humor, you know

philippe (34:05)
That's

completely different than you're being transgressive and funny, you know, and you're playing with stereotypes and you're challenging people. But that's totally different, as you said, because you're using playfulness and irony and, but nobody does that. mean, humor is dead in fashion anyway, you know? So, yeah, nobody does that anymore, but it's a very good example, know, Westwood or Gauthier or, you know, these designers, they were pushing the boundaries of...

Eugene (34:09)
Exactly.

No for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

philippe (34:32)
what was appropriate or not for men, but they did it with, you know, this amazing sense of humor, you know, and that's not what it is here. It actually takes itself rather seriously, you know, that's what I think is a bit weird there. Yeah.

Eugene (34:39)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, fashion is now run by, you know, car and soap industry businessmen. So I don't know I don't know how much humor we s they're very serious people, Philippe.

philippe (34:53)
Yeah.

No, no, no, no.

But the thing is, you know, it doesn't take away the fact that, you know, Julian is a really talented designer and he's great. I just this direction just really, really bugged me. And, and, know, we will see how it evolves. But at the same time, know, Simon Rocha was from throughout the show and I was like, oh, that's very interesting. So that, you know, there must

Eugene (35:11)
Yeah. I agree.

exchanging notes.

philippe (35:24)
Yeah, I was

thinking, okay, so now you're you know, you're twinning or something like what's going on, you know, you're inviting her. It was very bizarre. I just felt, you know, I think for me also the danger now in fashion is that brands end up being too similar or they end up looking, you know, the same. And I think that's something we really have to be careful with, especially when you're coming into a house like that, that is very established in a way. You need to respect certain things and, know, it's,

Eugene (35:28)
Mm.

Yeah.

philippe (35:53)
Yeah, just I'm curious to see what editors will do with that and what they will be shooting from that collection. Let's see. Let's see what happens.

Eugene (36:03)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah. So that was Thursday. What else was Thursday? Rick Rick Owens was Thursday, which I have to say I really liked. it could have used, of course, less like Adidas pants. it needs a new shoe. It needs a new shoe, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

philippe (36:25)
And also the shoe, I'm over these shoes. Can you just, can you do something? Because the guys

cannot walk. mean, they don't look comfortable. You know, I mean, I watched the show again. was like, and the tailoring was beautiful and they were actually a lot of pieces that were a bit more subdued this time. You know, once you removed the accessories and everything, it was beautifully made and it looked very timeless and very sharp. So that was really nice. But that shoe is like, come on, just stop it. You know, it's like.

Eugene (36:33)
Yeah, it needs an issue.

Yeah.

It need yeah, the brand

needs a new shoe. I agree. I mean we've been saying this already for a year, but like yeah, you need a new shoe.

philippe (36:59)
But it keeps, yeah, it's

always the same thing. And also, you know, they don't look comfortable walking in those things. You know, they look silly. So it's not empowering for them.

Eugene (37:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's

that's one th a little bit of a pet peeve I've had with Rick's shows for a couple of years. Some of them, I'm like, these are really restrictive. And that's not modern. And Rick to me is a quintessential modernist. so

philippe (37:24)
Yeah.

So it's about autonomy and independence and freedom.

It's not about feeling sort of hindered by your footwear. It's a bit weird. Yeah.

Eugene (37:40)
Yeah. Yeah yeah.

So I think he's, you know, sacrificing that for the silhouette, but I'm not I'm not convinced by that. it really does feel and I interviewed Rick last year and he gave me an amazing quote, you know, he said, Comfort is weak.

And I totally understand what he's saying. You know, I don't want to see people in aloe leggings on the street. but conversely, there has to be some sense of comfort meaning comfort in your own self. You know.

philippe (38:22)
Yeah, and also reality.

And if you remember at the beginning, he did shoes that were also extreme, but they were wearable, you know, and, and it's, and yeah, and you know, and now it's become so abstract in a way and they're over designed to the point that, you know, it takes an entire army to put them on or wear them. And I just think like, this is, this is becoming coming out. So it's like, you know, just don't lose the reality, you know, don't lose the sort of pragmatic thing that

Eugene (38:28)
yeah, I still have them. Yeah, they're still my favorite.

Yeah.

philippe (38:50)
also makes your brand urban and strong. know, I mean, that's also the thing. And here it's becoming too much of a styling exercise that for me, you know, shouldn't be there. doesn't add anything to the clothing, actually, you know.

Eugene (38:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

No, I agree. And I've always said like I love like them those moments when you see someone actually in town wearing like hat to toe rig or and a yoji and you're like, these people exist and they're just like having a drink at a bar, you know? And it's like that to me has always been the best thing about these designers. that it's not just for the runway. Yeah, in this

philippe (39:24)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Eugene (39:36)
Yeah, we we need we need an issue. Otherwise, I thought it was great. I agree. I thought the tailoring was phenomenal. And I thought see, he had a variety in silhouettes that went from skinny to super oversized, but it was so coherent in its progression that it felt totally right.

philippe (39:51)
Yeah, it was.

No, it was

confident. But the thing is, you know, he's extremely confident in what he does. And that's something that you see every single time because there's such an energy that is, you unique and that he owns, you know, and he harnesses that kind of energy, that kind of power. But I think, you know, sometimes it's not a bad thing to simplify certain aspects of your silhouette and make it maybe a bit more approachable because it will remain strong. You know, it's not going to lose its strength. It just...

Eugene (40:11)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

No

philippe (40:26)
sometimes needs to be a little more relatable and not this kind of sci-fi freak show thing. know, it's also like that in a way I think, you

Eugene (40:31)
Hmm. I I agree.

I agree. But I love that and you know, and because he's so strong with what we started with, he is like the last designer with a tribe. You know, like that is a very very you really see that at the shows. Like it's unmistakable. and

philippe (40:45)
Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

Eugene (40:55)
But this I also loved like the aggressive energy of the show. And it's the first thing I asked him about backstage. I'm like, what's going on with this? It felt very you know, it felt very like Dune, like like those inflatable Adidas things. I was like, it's Baron Harkonnen, like from from the original Dune, and and he said, Yeah, I've been feeling really sort of aggressive, but aggressive as a resistance to, you know, all the horrible things that are going

philippe (41:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eugene (41:26)
It came out really well. Yeah, yeah. I like that and I even though I didn't go like looking at photos, I really liked Yoji again. yeah.

philippe (41:36)
did you? Yeah, thought

it was some of the tailoring was nice. I liked the first part with all these jackets that had sort of like buttons and the shoulder was quite round. There was like very interesting construction there. But then it moved into all these sort of weird prints and it was like washed out black and white with grays. And then I was like, this is looking a bit old because I felt like the first part was younger again. And it had like this kind of

Eugene (41:47)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No.

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

philippe (42:06)
appeal and it looked fresh and then it got bit sort of like solemn again and a bit a bit sad which is like it's always the thing with Yoji always seems to be like the shows are always a bit like I don't know you know heavy it's heavy going

Eugene (42:12)
Hm. Yeah.

Yeah, he's tired. He's tired. He's tired and it's heavy.

I think there are serious problems in the company. And I think this is you can see that it's like he he feels trapped there. I am I am sh I am sure of it. And and I don't know if you saw what happened, you know, they had to basically carry him out of the it's crazy, and this is where I was like.

philippe (42:29)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm

I know, I know I saw that, yeah.

Eugene (42:48)
This cannot continue, this like air conditioned thing, because Yoji had to be like literally almost carried out of his own show. He is 82. and you know the what that place is. So they for those of you who don't know, they showed the men's at the Yoji Showroom and it's a sauna in

philippe (42:50)
No, no.

No, it was awful. It was terrible.

Yeah, no, no, it's not. mean, it was told today. You could see that physically it was just far too much. You know, that's the thing that bugged me actually during the entire week is like fashion expecting us to adapt to anything for the sake of it. And people also thinking that we're going to spend like the entire day running between shows in like 45 degrees and feel fine and just perform, you know, like we always do.

Eugene (43:11)
huh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

philippe (43:36)
Well, sorry, it's not happening. So at a certain point, think people will have to complain and people will have to address that and make a change, know, definitely.

Eugene (43:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I put something on my Instagram first and and I was like, you know, for those of us who don't have cars, like if you want us to go to your showroom and it's out of the way, it really should like you really should like think about like you know, calling us a taxi. 'cause we're not making money here, you know, we're not here for commercial reasons. Like you guys are selling. We're helping you sell. like I think that should be the new norm.

philippe (44:04)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Eugene (44:17)
'cause it's certainly not going to be the French Federation.

philippe (44:21)
You know, it's funny because I don't know if you saw this thing that Walter said backstage in an verb during the end for fashion festival When he showed his 40th anniversary showing it sort of went viral He was saying that what is the point of having a fashion week where you know You are on the same day as a Louis Vuitton or a Dior or whatever or Saint Laurent and you have to compete with these people and their budget is like 200 times bigger than yours and it's all ends up

Eugene (44:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

philippe (44:49)
looking a bit silly and I thought a lot about this because, know, also talking to Natalie Orsin at Pitti in Florence and her telling me that there are so many permits and so many documents you need to have today in order to do a show in Paris, even as a upcoming brand, you know, so you need the money and you need the authorizations to do this. You cannot just bring a bus of people from Belgium and say, hey, let's do a show, you know, let's do like...

a gorilla thing somewhere and see what happens. You cannot do that anymore because you're going to get checked and you're going to get fined, you know, and there will be consequences. And I just think like, OK, so how does that reflect on creativity? And are we not basically like screwing an entire generation that is no longer able to show in Paris because everything is so expensive there? You know, and one of the reasons why said to there's a show in Milan is precisely because of price.

Eugene (45:19)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

philippe (45:45)
Because he can afford to do it in Milan, but he could never afford to do it in Paris. And those are considerations that we also need to think about when we look at the calendar. And in a way that really, really disturbs me because you start thinking, OK, so it's all about money then. And creativity is not first, creativity comes second. And that's how it's going to be from now on.

Eugene (45:49)
Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile

Louis Vuitton can put a goddamn surfing wave in

philippe (46:17)
which

a lot of people criticized and particularly in the French press, know, they were very, very annoyed by this, seeing how tone deaf it was, you know, and how in the middle of a hit wave that killed more than a thousand people in France, you just don't do that, you know. But in a way it was interesting because it showed how disconnected luxury is from reality. You know, we all knew this, but there was such a, again, such a grotesque display

Eugene (46:34)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

philippe (46:46)
of power and such a spectacle that was not needed and that was morally wrong, that at the end of the day just showed you how completely out of it luxury is, you know. And for me, that was quite a good thing because it totally failed, you know, and nobody was like, wow, look how impressive it is. People were criticizing it very harshly, you know. So that was a good reaction. Yeah, I thought.

Eugene (46:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I'm I'm glad to

hear it. I mean the whole thing was so dumb. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And then it's like, what are you doing this for? You look at this clothes and you're like No.

philippe (47:15)
It was grotesque. It was grotesque. You know, it was grotesque.

And nobody cares about the clothes. I mean, what is it you can

say? It's already been a remix of a remix of stuff that we've already seen from him. There's nothing to talk about. So people just talked about that kind of obscene set that they had. know, was that tidal wave. That was the only thing that people could talk about. But you know, it's either that or you're at a Dior show and it's all over the place and you have no idea what he's doing. And it's like ripped jeans.

Eugene (47:49)
Mm.

philippe (47:52)
Georgia Armani tailoring Bohemian guys. You're like, what's going on here? You know, and there's no, yeah, it was a, it's a complete mess. It's a complete mess. And you're thinking, how can you have all this money and not a clear direction? I don't understand. You know, I really don't understand. Yeah.

Eugene (47:56)
It was such a mess.

Yeah, because on s it's true, 'cause on some level it could be anything, right? Which is what exactly what Eddie Sliman did. Because when they were like, We're gonna launch the OROM and he was like, so I can do whatever I want, 'cause there is no history.

philippe (48:15)
Yeah.

No, there's nothing. Absolutely nothing.

Eugene (48:26)
And you like you could

do and you could continue doing that on some level because like I mean, let's face it, no one gives a shit what about Kim what Kim Jones did there. Like it no I guarantee you no one will remember a single thing about Kim Jones tenure at your. So like do something new again. But that's what I've been saying about JW Anderson. I I think he's a really good creative director. I don't think he's a very good designer because what's the signature?

philippe (48:37)
No.

Eugene (48:54)
There is no signature and there's never been a signature. And now we're seeing that. And now we're really seeing.

philippe (48:58)
No one it's

Yeah, and I think also you're getting the feeling that it's not performing the way that they thought it would. You know, and I think the sort of thing that's really funny is that everybody talks about Matur at Chanel and everybody is like obsessed with like, people queuing there, people buying it, people going crazy, people like, you know, like emptying their bank accounts, you know, just to buy Chanel. And in a way, sort of overshadows your and it makes your look

Eugene (49:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

philippe (49:29)
old, you know, a way that is really unfortunate for LVMH. So now, you know, it feels as though Dior is not catching up, you know, they're not catching up. And again, you know, if you look at the menswear and more recently, the couture, it just looks like uninspired. It's uninspired, you know, and it doesn't have a clear vision because I'm telling you one thing, Eugene, there is no confidence there, no confidence, you know.

Eugene (49:31)
one hundred percent. Yeah.

Yeah yeah.

Mm.

philippe (49:59)
And at the end of day, that comes across in the clothing. It comes across in the clothing and it creates this kind of malaise around the brand, which is actually very dangerous because there's nothing assertive coming from Dior. And as you said, there is no one strong single silhouette that you can identify with or push. It just isn't there. It's not there.

Eugene (50:03)
Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I am

sure Bernard Arnaud is biting his elbows 'cause they got the wrong guy and Chanel is like I mean Chanel's gonna kill it. There's no question, they're gonna do extremely well. Yeah.

philippe (50:34)
Chanel is killing it. Yeah. And

I think for I know it must be like unbearable to watch that completely unbearable. Yeah.

Eugene (50:39)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

which is so sad because these guys all think they're playing a zero-sum game. And fashion is not a zero-sum game. And this is what I keep telling people. I'm like, you it's an ecosystem. You need strong, beautiful voices, so people get excited about fashion in general. And then everyone does better. And if because if because if they don't.

philippe (51:04)
Hmm.

Eugene (51:09)
That everyone does worse and including like he thinks he's gonna be the last man standing because he has Louis Bouton and Dior, but that's just not the case. And I think Chanel is proving it because Matthew Blazé is doing great. He's exciting women, you know. And the right women. Sorry.

philippe (51:24)
And then another brand

from LVMH that is completely sinking is Givenchy. mean, Givenchy at the moment is an embarrassment. It's an embarrassment. you know, it's not enough to get your gun teller to shoot a campaign on older men to make your menswear look attractive. I mean, I'm sorry. It's not enough. And, know, that's another thing that we discussed before regarding...

Eugene (51:31)
Yeah, well.

Yeah, yeah.

philippe (51:51)
Sarah Burton, know, there's obviously an issue there and it's not working either. that's two houses that are sort of like dragging behind, you know, and, they're not catching the tie guys and it's kind of embarrassing, you know.

Eugene (51:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well

it now you know what I say, like they they are convinced if they keep changing the cansie wrapper that their Ferrero Rocher will just all of a sudden taste good to people. And I'm like, it's the same fucking cansie. So stop changing the cansy wrapper. You're gonna have to come up with the better cansie at some point because like there's you can do this only for so long.

philippe (52:16)
Hahaha! Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

No, I know. And you know what is funny also with Mathieu and Chanel? It reminds me of the craziness that surrounded Alessandro Michele's debut at Gucci. know, there was like this very similar excitement. And if you think about Mathieu, because he's very clever, he's a very good merchandiser. So he's piling it up again, you know, piling up the accessories, the jewelry, using all these male ambassadors, you know, saying Chanel doesn't do menswear.

Eugene (52:39)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

philippe (52:56)
and yet having all these guys representing Chanel is very smart. So I think he's tapping into the culture and he's actually broadening the scope of Chanel while keeping it very exclusive with the price point. So in a way that makes it aspirational in a strange way. So I think the whole strategy is very, very smart. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's really kind of exciting people again.

Eugene (52:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, 'cause the rest can buy the lipstick.

philippe (53:25)
And there's tons of merchandise and there's tons of ways to enter the brand. Just like with Gucci, it was the same with Alessandro. A lot of different people could enter the brand. So I think it's very clever the way they've been running the business there.

Eugene (53:35)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I agree. I agree. What else did you like? Well we're gonna talk about the impact of the Japanese, right, on Paris.

philippe (53:47)
I mean, I'm

going to start sounding like you and copying you now, which is really sad. But I know that because you're you're you're saying, well, if the Japanese were not embarrassed and Paris wouldn't be saved. this time I have to agree 500 percent, Eugene, I have to give it to you. I have to give you this award. Yes, it's the Japanese that saved it. And I have to say that.

Eugene (53:52)
Dries is too feminine. The Japanese are killing it.

philippe (54:14)
the collections that really excited me and that made me sort of, you know, emotional or even made me desire clothes, were the Japanese designers. And I was like, wow, there's something really exciting happening from tack to Soshio Tsuki to even color and Junya you know, like the energy of all these different collections. Sakai a little bit less. I was a little bit underwhelmed.

Eugene (54:26)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

philippe (54:42)
with what I saw but I would say you know for me the top three was Tak, Color and Soshio Tsuki like really incredible clothes all different you know very very different universes but at the same time like incredible craft beautiful colors Soshio Tsuki made me feel like wearing suits again you know it was like all these things that I would not even look at

Eugene (54:44)
Mm-hmm.

Mm, mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

philippe (55:08)
I was kind of triggered and excited by these guys. And I was like, wow, they really, mean, the fact that they're insular in a way, you know, it's like the Belgians, they have that insularity and in a way it shelters them from everything else that's going on. And you see that in Paris, you know, you see that they're coming with a vision that is really singular and special and unique. And that was a relief, you know, during that week, definitely. Yeah.

Eugene (55:11)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I agree. I I think Tac is probably the most underrated brand at Paris Fashion Week right now. I whoever's doing this, you gotta invite me to the show. I don't know what's going on. but I looked at the pictures and I was like, once again, it's like it's brilliant. It's really beautiful close.

philippe (55:39)
It is. It is. Yeah.

Eugene (55:56)
I really like Societsu King. I remember I didn't really like the Pizzi show. I found it too derivative. Yeah, this was way better. I was like, okay, there is enough originality here to make it stand on your own and say, like, okay, yeah, we know the inspirations, but that's okay. Because there is enough for it to stand on its own. So I also really like that. I thought color was very good.

philippe (56:01)
It was better. It was better. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Eugene (56:25)
Yeah, and yeah. Junia I wasn't crazy about, I have to say. you know, this kind of piling on of bling. I mean, the collection was about bling, like that's what it said, and like that's all fine. And I know Junia has this very dry sense of humor, which really came through because I think it was also kind of like this is the luxury customer right now. Yeah.

philippe (56:43)
Hmm?

It's a critique of, but that's what Junia

does a lot, you know. Remember when he did this woman's blondie collection and the woman had all these dresses where bags were attached on the dresses and all the garments, they were like glued. And you know, it was a sarcastic comment on the luxury groups. I think again, this time the bling and piling it up and this kind of tackiness of that, the vulgarity of that was also like his commentary on...

Eugene (57:15)
Yeah. Yeah.

philippe (57:19)
luxury brands trying to overdo each other, you know, and sort of, and this kind of thing. And, and I like that about him that he does it in a very subtle way. But if you, can read into the clothing and understand what kind of moment he's talking about, what kind of opinion he has, you know, but it's, yeah, it's clever. It's clever.

Eugene (57:22)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I agree. I agree.

I agree. what was missing for me this time were the clothes itself. I I was missing this kind of mastery of cutting and pattern making. It was too simple for Junior. That's what I was thinking. but the theme itself, yeah, it was funny and it and it was fun. Fun to be there. It was exactly.

philippe (57:47)
Hmm.

Yeah.

It was cheeky, you know,

and there was a sense of humor, but it was not like ha ha ha, you know, it was kind of like more perverse.

Eugene (58:08)
Yeah yeah. Yeah. he is his

sense of humor is British. He is dry. It is so dry. Yeah yeah. I love that. any other shows that you liked?

philippe (58:14)
Yeah, very sarcastic, very sarcastic. Definitely.

Well,

it wasn't a show, but I went to the Lanvin presentation and you know that now Lanvin separates men from women. So basically they don't do co-ed shows anymore. And I really liked it. Like he switched stylists, he hired somebody new and it felt very, very fresh with a lot of color blocking things inspired by Bleu de Travail, which is workwear, French workwear. So it was like mixing this kind of like louche

Eugene (58:29)
Mm-hmm.

philippe (58:54)
a pajama sort of tailoring silhouette and then this workwear pieces. And I think there's always like standout coats and standout things that he does. But I think L'Enver is becoming more and more confident, you know, like every season it feels more secure and it feels that it's going into the right direction. So yeah, I'm curious to see how it develops. But this menswear felt younger and fresher than usual.

Eugene (59:23)
That's good. Yeah. yeah, I saw a lot I I was I I saw quite a few shows this time, but I was in a lot of showrooms and I saw a lot of great clothes. I actually I really liked undercover this time. I think the lookbook did not do it justice at all. in person. There was some really cool stuff.

philippe (59:34)
Hmm?

Mm.

Eugene (59:50)
And he brought back, you know, the Mikhail Boreman's collaborations, with which was really cool. But there was also a lot in the patterns, in the cutting, in the details, did not come across in June has June has been really into this again into the subdued styling, like I'm just showing clothes, and does not like the beauty of the clothes does not come through. I think you should switch up a little bit.

philippe (59:54)
Yeah.

in the images.

Eugene (1:00:20)
with the lookbooks. or put on a show again. I don't know, because they kinda

philippe (1:00:26)
Well, that's what I was thinking

precisely about Maliano because he did a show last January that I really loved. I thought it was beautiful. And this time it was a presentation at Maxime's, but there wasn't much going on there. And, you know, people had to wait outside and then we got in and I was like, okay, so this is it. You know, this is, this is it. And I think it's very difficult if you've done a show the previous season that was powerful to go back to your presentation.

format it can feel a little bit like, you know, slipping away from the intensity that you managed to have previously. So I thought, well, maybe it's better not to show anything at all, you know, and just do like a great photo shoot or something else or a film or whatever. But going from that's what I miss also with Undercover. I miss the runway. You know, I miss that kind of drama, which I think is really special. Yeah. So.

Eugene (1:00:58)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Me too. Me too.

But it made me think, you know, I feel like it's starting to feel like some brands are like running out of money. You know, Sakai for the second time, they did the show at their showroom. the time before they did just the presentation, they took like one season off.

philippe (1:01:33)
Good job.

True.

Eugene (1:01:46)
undercover stop doing shows. Like I'm I'm wondering if these brands are hurting financially and if so, that would be really upsetting 'cause they are some of the best you know, of the best ones out there.

philippe (1:02:01)
But I don't know if you noticed that pity, but the first two days were really busy. And then when it came to the Thursday, I was walking around and it was half empty and it was, it was very bizarre. And then I took, you know, afternoon off and I went to Le Printemps. I went to Galerie Lafayette. I also went to Bon Marché. And you know, the only place that was busy in all these stores, it was at Chanel. Everybody was at Chanel.

Eugene (1:02:10)
It was dead crazy. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. Chanel.

yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's scary. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's a little scary. So I hope for the best for these brands because the like I said, yeah, fashion really needs them. Fashion really needs

philippe (1:02:31)
Everything else was empty. Everything else was empty. It was bizarre. It was just really, really strange. Yeah. Really bizarre.

I know,

you know, also with what I said earlier about how much money you need now to do show in Paris and how it's difficult to find people, because there might be people who might want to help you, you know, and either work for free or do things for you in a way that is really, you know, approachable somehow. There's a whole setup around it which...

requires all this bureaucracy and all this paperwork and all these permits. And they do control on designers during Fashion Week. And it's all about the modeling agencies again, and these people making more money with models. And I think there's a bit of a thing going on there that makes it super hard for people to say, okay, I'll just go to Paris and we'll see what happens. No, it does require a lot of money, knowledge, and also...

Eugene (1:03:19)
Hm, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

philippe (1:03:44)
green lights from different people, know, to be able to do it.

Eugene (1:03:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And yet like Paris is a clear winner. Like there seem to be more brands with every single season. It's kind of crazy how Paris has really and also seeing like in terms of what kind of brands are coming, what kind of media. 'cause even like up to the pandemic it was really about designer fashion.

philippe (1:04:15)
Mm.

Eugene (1:04:16)
I mean there was already streetwear coming in here and there. I think Virgil did pave that bridge. but now it's like everyone. and in terms of the media too.

philippe (1:04:26)
But you

I think you know what I think it's about because maybe we discussed this a little bit last time, but it's about the focus being on the clothing again and people not being distracted by the celebrities or the sets or all that bullshit. Like people are looking at the clothes again and they are judging them and they are looking for novelty and they're looking for innovation or something original, know, something individual, you know, and I think

Eugene (1:04:37)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

philippe (1:04:56)
Paris is still the place where you do get storytellers and you do get people that have a world of their own, you know, and that's become very precious. And I think there's definitely a hunger for that. You know, there's a craving for that kind of, for those voices in fashion that have been missing, you know, for a long time.

Eugene (1:04:59)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's either that or maybe much more prosaically, like people have no money and if you're gonna go to one place, where are you gonna go? Paris is already dominant, so you're gonna go to Paris. And this is why Milan feels like felt so that like, you know, you had that Tom Brown show there and it was like, What are you doing there? You know

philippe (1:05:38)
I

know you're even questioning why some brands are in Milan because you don't really see the point of it. It's funny, it's almost as if Milan has become provincial in a strange way, you know, in fashion circles, and the action is in Paris and the main protagonist and also the independent voices go to Paris, they don't go to Milan. But again, you know, I think it's because the culture in Italy does not really foster that, you know, so...

Eugene (1:05:46)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Hm, yeah,

philippe (1:06:06)
That's also another reason.

Eugene (1:06:07)
yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah, and I saw, you know, what we said before, like I saw a lot of beautiful clothes in the showrooms and it's funny like you talked about Japan. 'Cause I was keeping a diary for my audience and I think it was maybe on a Thursday, I was like, today is Japan Day and then I thought, every day is Japan Day. I

philippe (1:06:31)
Every day is Japan

Day.

Eugene (1:06:32)
I

am not exaggerating. Probably quarters of what I see now in Paris is Japanese. And not just the shows, but in the showrooms. There are so many great brands. To the point where I'm starting now to question a little bit of I'm like, okay, we are really, you know, in menswear, we're really into this product driven.

Phase that came after streetwear. Now people like want a beautiful coat, a beautiful jacket from great fabrics, fit well, nice details, etc. And Japanese have always been good at that. And now I'm starting to think like these I'm seeing like newer brands, and I'm like, this is starting to look a little bit manufactured. All right. So it started with brands like.

philippe (1:07:23)
Mmm. Yeah.

Eugene (1:07:26)
You know, it started with Orley and then like a presse, which is mostly menswear that came along. Very product product driven, superb quality. And then you started seeing like a presse number two, a presse number three, a presse number four. And the differentiation between them is not like there's not enough where I'm starting to feel,

philippe (1:07:44)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:07:54)
Was this just like did you go and convince an investor like we can also do this? Cause like there's manufacturing is there in Japan, textiles are there, designers are there. So these brands, you know, like Stein, niceness, they start feeling a little bit manufactured where I'm like, okay, I need a bit more differentiation here.

philippe (1:08:00)
Mm-hmm.

Eugene (1:08:24)
In terms of what's going on.

philippe (1:08:26)
But don't you think it's the Soshio Tuki effect? I winning the LVMH prize going to PT, like I really feel that he put Japan back on the map and it's all about a new generation and people are really hungry for these new brands, you know, and they're also like, they're quite clever because they can do really beautiful tailoring, but they can also do things that are a bit more relaxed, you know.

And I think in a way it reminds me of that wave in the 80s, when they first came to Europe and they had this really singular take on tailoring and the silhouette and they could do something that was daring but at the same time wearable. It was always this balance. And I have the feeling that that new generation is completely the same. They have that same sense of fashion.

Eugene (1:09:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah.

I don't think it's him because he is a fashion designer. You know, I I'm talking about product centric brands as opposed to like giving you, you know, and I'm talking about brands like Apressa and Taika Takahashi. I think those two paved the way. And I don't know if I'm speaking foreign language to you right now, you know, because but I feel like you know, menswear is it's there are two things, right? There's the designer fashion, which

philippe (1:09:22)
Okay.

Eugene (1:09:41)
Both you and I love, but there's this whole other world that's like more product driven. and Japan is very good at that. You know, like we're gonna give you really phenomenal reproductions of menswear archetypes in beauty. So I'm talking about that part. Like there's a lot of that right now. And that's what men are buying. and if you look at the sort of I I f I finally call it fashion manosphere.

philippe (1:09:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Eugene (1:10:10)
Which, you know, I don't think anything critical by that at all. It's just funny. But it's like dudes who are into product, you know.

philippe (1:10:10)
Mm-hmm.

It's almost like,

how do you call it? It's like geeky, you this geeky thing. Men's wear geeks, yeah.

Eugene (1:10:21)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So there's a lot of that going on.

And that's really what's driving menswear right now. and especially with the rise of like podcasts, substacks, it's what a lot of great. And I'm starting like to feel like a little bit fatigued at this point. I'm like, I'm seeing a lot, and this is what I said. I see a lot of beautiful clothes. and and then if I go to a small brand like Taiichi Muracoming.

philippe (1:10:29)
Mm-hmm.

Eugene (1:10:49)
Which is one more like like on a Stalzai guy's side, who are doing he he he does a fantastic interpretation between workware and techware, but it's all very designed. we should go together one time to his showroom. He's been doing it for a long time. He used to work at MA Cross. and it's like super, super cool. But that stands out to me as opposed to

philippe (1:11:03)
Hmm.

Eugene (1:11:16)
We're gonna give you like the best version of a bomber jacket that you've ever seen. You know. So yeah.

philippe (1:11:21)
Yeah, I understand. But you know, one

of a brand that I'd like to mention because I think they're growing in a way that's really exciting is Ernest W. Baker. know, and when I went to Porto last week, I got to meet them. They're a couple, you know, they're duo of designers and he's American, she's Portuguese. And I have to say, I was there were a few pieces from the spring summer like hanging in their studio.

Eugene (1:11:33)
Mm.

philippe (1:11:48)
And I really look at them in detail and I was really impressed with the craftsmanship and what they do. And I think what's interesting with that brand is that, know, they're very quiet. They're not like trying to please everybody, but they have an allure. There's like a certain style of guy that wears it. And, and in a way it's sort of a bit retro, but it feels relevant and they managed to make it. And you know, their biggest market they told me is, is Korea. And it's interesting because in Korea.

Eugene (1:11:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah.

philippe (1:12:17)
people really love this kind of like intricate, beautiful pieces of clothing, you know, that they can get. And like, it's almost like old fashioned, you know, in a way it's like an old fashioned way to look at men's and to look at elegance, but they make it current. And I thought, this is exciting that they are developing so much, you know, that they are showing in Paris and yet they're still confidential and not everybody talks about them. So I thought.

Eugene (1:12:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm.

Yeah. yeah.

philippe (1:12:44)
That's quite nice to see that such brands are indeed growing without shouting it to everybody. So yeah, that was,

Eugene (1:12:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

I like them too and it's I've always thought they're a Japanese brand because I've only seen them in Japan.

philippe (1:12:59)
No, everything is made in Portugal and they live close to the

factories and they employ probably 19 different factories in Portugal, but they oversee the entire production and they control everything and they have these relationships with the manufacturer. But I was really impressed. was like, wow, this is really beautiful. And I could see how some stores buying, for example, Tom Brown might switch and buy Ernest now, you know, because it's a little bit

Eugene (1:13:07)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

philippe (1:13:25)
funkier and it's a bit younger, you know? So yeah, I was really, really impressed with it. Yeah, that was.

Eugene (1:13:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

That's good to

know. And I do feel like for enthusiasts of menswear, they have definitely moved on from all these big brands. And I I I am feeling hopeful about smaller brands right now. I'm feeling really, really good. And I must say, I'm feeling good about us. I'm feeling good about independent fashion media. I feel we are now in a better place. I looked at a report.

philippe (1:13:43)
Yeah.

Me too. Me too.

Mm-hmm.

Eugene (1:14:01)
This morning that I got from Launchmetrics about like media value, whatever the metric they have. And guess where were the influencers? That last. And the first it was between celebrities and the fashion media. So so celebrities will always sell, you know, we know that it's a story as all this

philippe (1:14:12)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, they're going down.

Okay, interesting.

Eugene (1:14:31)
Pop culture. but looks like people are done with influencers and they know.

philippe (1:14:36)
Yeah, I mean,

that's something, it's a feeling I already had last year when I talked to a few PR people in Paris who were just telling me they were just tired of them, you know, and looking for alternatives and also looking for people who had actual strong points of view. So, you know, that might, is a good thing for us. Definitely, for sure. We should celebrate. We should celebrate.

Eugene (1:14:40)
Mm.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, yeah.

Pop the champagne. I don't know how to make a popping sound. anything else at the showrooms or any other designers that you like?

philippe (1:15:04)
Exactly.

I mean, not really. did a lot of shows actually this time and I didn't do a lot of showrooms. So was really focused on shows. But when I left Paris, I really had the feeling that the ones that struck me the most and the ones that individual stories to tell were the Japanese designer. I would say maybe one more collection that I love with Ziggy Chen.

Eugene (1:15:19)
Mm.

Okay.

Yeah.

yeah, that looked nice.

philippe (1:15:46)
I had a conversation with the mentor buyer at Leclerur and also with Martin and they were telling me that they sell it very well and that the value for money is actually really good for that brand. And that was also a good thing, that they were saying people are looking at the fabrics, they're looking at the craftsmanship and they don't mind paying that money for a product that obviously is worth that, because there is a lot of attention.

Eugene (1:15:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

philippe (1:16:13)
And the silhouettes were beautiful and I liked the styles. were like some notes to also military styles workwear, but it was done in a very soft, gentle also way. And I think he has a strong signature style and I think he has, you know, he's also bold in his own way. So I like that. for me, was, was a lot of Paris was completely about Asia at this time for me. Totally. No, no, totally. And you could also argue that Le Maire is the most.

Eugene (1:16:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

philippe (1:16:43)
Japanese or Chinese influence designer in Paris. You know, I mean, it's a fact that even French press doesn't talk about Le Maire that much. You know, he's more famous. Yeah, yeah, exactly. He's more famous in Asia. again, yeah.

Eugene (1:16:50)
No, no, it's all about China and Japan. It's all about China and Japan. Yeah, I think China is his biggest market by now. I mean, of course they

got it from the Japanese, but yeah.

philippe (1:17:02)
So, know,

he's one of these guys that really has that sensibility, you know, and that makes him very relevant today. You know, so that was great.

Eugene (1:17:11)
Yeah yeah.

Yeah. I like that story. I did the reverse. I went to a lot of showrooms and I went to very few shows. This time I was like, I am going only going to the eighth for Rick. I'm like, you're not gonna get me to the eighth on this month for anything else. and I stayed and I paid for you know, one Japanese brands I didn't Japanese brand I did not care for was Yo.

philippe (1:17:28)
Ha ha.

Yes.

Eugene (1:17:40)
And that show was after Rick. And I was like, why are we here? And that was another that's another brand that feels manufactured to me. It's like, okay, like A, why do you have a show? Like you're not showing anything that's worth being on the runway. Again, very nice clothes but I you know, like we've seen all of this before. Like there is no reason for it to be on the runway. And especially after Rick.

philippe (1:17:42)
Okay.

Okay.

Yeah. So they're just writing.

Eugene (1:18:09)
Especially after Rick, it was like such a contrast. Yeah.

philippe (1:18:11)
Yeah, No, but they're

obviously riding on that wave and they're trying, you know, because there is excitement around Japan right now. So maybe they're just trying to, you know, jump on that bandwagon.

Eugene (1:18:21)
Yeah, yeah. Well that's what I said. That's why like

some of it is starting to feel manufactured, and I'm like, I you guys need to be careful, you know. yeah, let's see what else that I liked. well did you go to Andreas Murkutis pop up shop, Tokyo Sense? No, that was fun. That was all Japanese brands, in MRA.

philippe (1:18:27)
Mmm.

Yeah.

No, I didn't do that.

Eugene (1:18:52)
It was everything from like books to clothing to ceramics and perfume. we had a really nice chat. I'm gonna invite him on the podcast. He's really he has some very strong opinions.

philippe (1:18:57)
Okay.

What

did you think about Bolloria? Because I thought the menswear was more interesting than the womenswear actually.

Eugene (1:19:07)
my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We should talk about

that. Even though it was out couture. I I mean I only saw photos. I should watch the video. I I really liked it. I thought it was it was really beautiful. I've been I was told by someone who works there, he said this is some of the best made clothing I've seen in a very long time.

philippe (1:19:19)
It was beautiful. Yeah.

Eugene (1:19:34)
So I'm also excited. apparently they had a showroom during Mans, but they didn't invite any press. It was for buyers only, which would which would make sense, I supp.

philippe (1:19:34)
Nice.

Okay, okay, Yeah, because

to me the men's felt fresher coming from Olivier because of course we know Olivier, we know what he loves. He loves black, he loves this kind of dark drama, you know, it's like the Tim Burton of fashion. But you know, I thought the men's was very interesting. There was like this dandyish thing and then there were bigger proportions because you always expect Olivier to do something very slim and skinny.

Eugene (1:19:49)
Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Slam

mm.

philippe (1:20:07)
But

this time it was boxier and I thought, okay, a lot of girls are gonna like that too. So I was excited by the preciseness of it and the fabrics and how he made it look kind of timeless. And that's what he said actually. said, yeah, it could be a brand from any moment and it had that quality. So I thought it was a nice return and the clothes look really beautiful and exciting. So that's something I definitely wanna check out.

Eugene (1:20:11)
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I know. I'm like I'm

totally bummed. I was like, there was a showroom, I would have totally gone. And now I don't know where to see it in person.

philippe (1:20:41)
I know, but yeah.

Eugene (1:20:46)
A year I don't know to see it anyway. Yeah. but I've I'm I'm gonna talk to Olivier. I'm gonna ask him like how can we see you could probably see it easier than I could. I'm sure it's some

philippe (1:20:48)
Maybe less, let's see.

Yeah, but

the thing is, was, I don't know, I think it was ensuring just at the start of Couture was also quite smart for him. And I don't know, it just made a lot of sense. it looked, it looked like it for me, it was about the clothes, do know what I mean? It was like, actually, it was, there were, there were no gimmicks. It was really like, look at the clothing and look at that proposition and what do you think about it? And

Eugene (1:21:07)
Hm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

philippe (1:21:25)
in a way just sort of reminded you of what designer fashion should be. know what saying? Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (1:21:29)
Exactly. That's exactly what it was. That's exact and

I mean, I know I think we both love Olivier and think he's a really talented designer. But that's exactly how it felt. It felt like a return to the golden age of that late nineties, where people were just killing it. And when he was killing it too, and yeah.

philippe (1:21:37)
Yeah, it's fantastic. It's fantastic.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Eugene (1:21:54)
I was so happy to see this and it did and I'm not the only one, it did incredibly well on our Instagram. Incredibly well. So people are very excited.

philippe (1:22:01)
No, no, but I'm not surprised.

Yeah. And I think imagine somebody being 20 discovering that. I mean, it's also totally new because it's a different silhouette and it's a different way of putting things together. And it felt very Belgian, very Belgian. And yeah, it was nice. It was nice.

Eugene (1:22:08)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know what it had?

It had drama. There was a sweep that's been missing from so many runways. I think the word sweep is the right one here. You know, yeah, I'm like, give us something and confidence exactly.

philippe (1:22:22)
Yeah.

Yeah. And confidence. It's confident. know,

you like it or you don't like it. It's very self-assured and there is a silhouette and you get it. You understand what the message is. It's very clear.

Eugene (1:22:37)
Yeah.

Yeah. Exa

exactly. You saw the silhouette, you saw their interpretations, you know. If I had any any criticism, like it could have been seven to ten looks less, 'cause but they drove the point across and this is exactly what you're supposed to do with the run.

philippe (1:23:03)
But now

Eugene imagine Olivier in a couture house, know, and what he could do. I mean, that would be, yeah.

Eugene (1:23:08)
my god. He sh he

he should be at Balenciaga, no? Well yeah?

philippe (1:23:12)
Or even Dior, I would put him as. Because

you know, because Olivier is also a romantic. mean, that's the thing. He has like this dark, this darkness, but there's also the romance part is really important. And I think it's a bit frustrating not to see him in a couture house because he, what, he did at Rochas. And I remember those clothes really well because I sold them in the showroom. They were just so beyond, so beyond beautiful that, you know.

Eugene (1:23:23)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

philippe (1:23:40)
He has that capacity and I think it's the right moment now to have poetic designers like him again. It's the right moment, you know, so I really, would love to see him in a Couture House. Definitely.

Eugene (1:23:45)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I agree.

Yeah, yeah. Me too.

Actually the or is a great idea.

philippe (1:23:56)
Joe would be fantastic for him. Yeah, he'd fantastic.

Eugene (1:23:58)
Yeah yeah.

And it's nice to see someone to come back and make a statement with clothing. Like you said, no gimmicks, like look at what we can do. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. Well, we love you, Olivier. And I liked and I liked it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. well it's a great note to end on, no?

philippe (1:24:04)
Mm. Yeah.

It's about the clues, yeah, truth to the...

I know it's... We just don't know where to see your clothes. Help us. Can you help us? Please, help us.

I know it's ending on Olivier, it's great. Yeah, I'm very happy with that.

Eugene (1:24:29)
I like ending on a positive

note. We're good here. thank you, Philippe, as usual, and until the next time. Bye. Bye.

philippe (1:24:33)
Yeah.

My pleasure. Thank you, Eugene, for having me. See you soon. Take care. Have a nice summer. Bye-bye. Bye.