Eugene (00:00)
Hi everyone, this is Eugene. We're back on the podcast and our guest today is Oscar van der Bogart, the award-winning Dutch novelist and playwright, and the author of The Six The Untold Story of the Antwerp Six, which is ca out in Dutch and coming out in English this fall, if I'm correct.

Oscar (00:23)
Yeah, true. It's it's already in English, yeah. Hello. Eugene, I'm happy to be

Eugene (00:25)
Yeah, welcome Oscar. Yeah. Welcome Oscar. Yeah, you

so can you first tell me a little bit, you know, me and in our audience, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you have come to love fashion and write this book.

Oscar (00:51)
Well I'm I'm raised in Suriname and the Netherlands. I studied French literature and European law in in France and in Amsterdam and then in Brussels. And when I was twenty four I arrived in Brussels. and yeah it was the beginning of the Antwerp Six. And I remember going out in the weekends to the centre of Brussels

And seeing people that I'd had that I had never seen before, like people that were very individual, very well dressed, but I didn't know the kind of dressing they did. They were like wearing heavy boots and and tight trousers and it was mostly black, but it could be some color too. but they were really, really individuals, like they were not acting in groups, they were

walking alone and they were like standing alone and not talking, but just being like these individuals. And this was really the beginning in in Belgium of this this this new energy that had to do with I didn't even think of the word fashion. It had to do with something that had nothing to do with fashion. It had to do with individuality and with perhaps some poetry and perhaps a bit of anger too. and

I met this guy, no well, I followed him in the streets. He wore these later I found out these boots of Dick Dick Bickenbergs Dick Bickenbergs that had laces in the heels. There was a hole in the heel and then there would be laces and then it looked really very, very sturdy and and something I'd never seen before. And he brought me to this shop called Stell in in the centre of Brussels, where the six were

Yeah, they were there in in in in in the shop and you could buy it, you could try it, you could you could wear it. so this was my this was the six my my meeting up with the six. Yeah, and then I published well, I studied at twenty five, I published published my first novel and at the same time I opened up this art gallery next to this shop.

selling the Six of Antwerp. And we started to show Tracy Emman and Douglas Gordon and and some British artists. and also they were like totally into the Antwerp Six. So

Eugene (03:32)
Mm.

Oscar (03:33)
when we had shows people wanted to wear it and there was this yeah it it had to do with a sort of perhaps it's it sounds horrible perhaps but a sort of intellectual

need to t to wear what had meaning instead of

Eugene (03:50)
Uh-huh.

Oscar (03:51)
belonging to to some some other kind of thing that you could buy. It had to do with being yourself totally and have the right cloth for it. And this is what I really really think is so wonderful that the six made cloth for people to be themselves and it had nothing

Eugene (04:09)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (04:09)
to do with fashion. So it was this anti fashion in that sense that it could reach out to

individuals instead of like a marketer or whatever.

Eugene (04:20)
No,

it's not horrible at all. I think you're absolutely right. I always say yeah.

Oscar (04:24)
And we needed it. And and and the collectors

of our our artists were had money to buy the Japanese designers. So in the same street in the center of Brussels, Le Rue Antoine Donsert, you also had this Yamamoto store of the woman that later started this as a bus business part partner of Margella. And then Margella opened up a store in in the same street. So it was really fashion, art, for me literature.

and Anteresa de Kirsmacher, the choreographer,

Eugene (05:00)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (05:00)
had her she lived there too, so we were it was really a small community of of yeah, people that were conscious of of things. And it

Eugene (05:10)
Mm.

Oscar (05:10)
certainly had a c political thing too, but it political didn't mean for the first time that you were not interested in fashion. So for the first time there was this

combination that fashion be became a tool to to be a strong individual and to be critical about things. I think that the sixth

Eugene (05:30)
Hm.

Oscar (05:30)
cook reached or or or or gave a sort of yeah a sort of tool to materialize or or or incorporate a political vision. And and the whole deconstruction thing had also to do with okay we look at the world but we want to understand the world at the same time.

And we

also want

Eugene (05:52)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (05:52)
to be there as who we are, and we don't want to look like anybody. And this became a bit of of a strange thing when everybody started to wear Margella, for instance. I remember

Eugene (06:08)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (06:08)
sitting in these these theaters to see these dance spectacles or whatever, and sitting in the back because I'm hypersensitive and I please

s I wanna sit in the back so I can walk away. you saw all these stitches in in the necks of people. It was like a

Eugene (06:29)
Ha

Oscar (06:31)
totalitarian regime and I got critical about this too, because I had them too in my neck. And then you got this tension between being an individual and being all part of a sort of thing. And it

Eugene (06:44)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (06:45)
got also something sectarian.

Eugene (06:48)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (06:49)
and I got a bit confused there.

in the end of the nineteen in nineteen ninety-nine I I stepped out of the gallery and I I moved to Antwerp. And I met a guy on on the train between between Brussels and Amsterdam, and we were sitting in a first class compartment and met each other because we were sitting in front of each other, and it was a silence compartment, but we started to chat right away. and we were both wearing

trousers, very special trousers of Ralph Simons. And

Eugene (07:25)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (07:26)
a this a t shirt of Margella and it's not about snobism. It it was just about precision. It was just like recognizing that things those kind of there was a sort of link that was crystal clear and brought us in a way together and it it made sense. And I'm a writer. I mean I'm an intellectual I guess I I want to go

under the skin, but that in cloth something deep can happen. I just have to admit this. And this was

Eugene (07:59)
Yeah.

Oscar (07:59)
this is what confuses me and this is what attracts me too that in the surface of things there can be this total deepness. And

Eugene (08:08)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (08:09)
okay. Then in the beginning of 2000 I started to make as a curator exhibitions and I was invited to make a big exhibition in Brussels in the Beaux Art Museum.

about r Arthur Rambault and

Eugene (08:24)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (08:24)
then I thought okay Patty Smith Rambaud and she had this opening in Munich in the in the Kunsthaus an opening of drawings and I went there because I wanted to invite her to come over to Brussels and give a concert in our exhibition. And when I was then in in Munich and I I I went to to see Patti she presented me to

A small woman standing next to her, and this was Anne Mulemeester.

So it was really funny that there's this link

Eugene (08:54)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (08:57)
between Arthur en Bo, Patty Smith, and Anne Mulemeester, who yeah, who are all involved in Arthur and Beau. And so Patty gave this concert in Brussels, Anne was there. Later she asked me to translate in Dutch the a story that Patty had written on her, on on Anne.

and then we we we got friends and so the Antwerp Six got really near. I mean I w I was knowing one of them. Marie

Eugene (09:31)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (09:31)
Nayet, which who also was part of the Six was already a friend of mine in the in the nineties. She didn't make any fashion. I didn't even know that she was one of the six. She was

Eugene (09:42)
Hm.

Oscar (09:42)
out of fashion, she had this little

Drift store, this coffee bar, she was just a very, very nice person, loving drift thrift stores and thrift markets, Marshall Pus. And so I knew already two of them. And then

Eugene (10:01)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (10:02)
I started also getting to know the other ones and yeah, so this is it.

Eugene (10:06)
Yeah.

Well, it's a long story and it's a lot to unpack. And I do want to go back to a few things you said. I

Oscar (10:14)
Yeah.

Eugene (10:15)
think for me, without a doubt without a doubt, the Antwerp Six, just like the Japanese were instr and just like, you know, Helmut Lang and Jill Sander, they were instrumental, I think and Margella, of course, they're instrumental in

For the first time giving sort of intelligent intellectual cultured people an alibi to dress up and to love fashion because they

Oscar (10:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (10:45)
offered what they offered, yeah, we can call it anti fashion if we want, even though you know they were operating in the fashion system. But they gave people a reason to dress up and to love fashion and not to be ashamed of it because it was intelligent.

the there are war values behind it that went beyond mere surface. And you know, for me also they represented, I you can project on the outside what you feel on the inside.

Oscar (11:19)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Eugene (11:20)
That's what those clothes were about. And you know, as Oscar Wilde famously said, only shallow people don't judge by appearance. Right? and so I think that's very important to note. And and I had the same reaction when I started encountering the work of the Anthrope Six and Margella, who is as we will get into it, we will know he's indispensable to the six. There's no question.

Oscar (11:48)
Yeah, true.

Eugene (11:52)
and yeah, so I think that's very important to note because I keep banging on about it and it seems harder and harder to get through to people these days. That that is what clothes can do, you know, because I feel like we are in twenty twenty six, we're absolutely back to this viblanian, you know, fashion is just

a monetary status marker. You know, we've gone

Oscar (12:21)
Yeah.

Eugene (12:22)
away so much from that moment that the Antwerp Six was instrumental too. That close can be meaningful.

Oscar (12:32)
Yeah,

Eugene (12:32)
Anyway

Oscar (12:33)
I miss it. I miss it. And and when I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm going to secondhand stores and and see those clothes and f and seeing young people wanting to connect with it. I I totally understand this need and this urgency to to wear meaningful things. And it's not only about ecological or political, but really like on a on a human level. I mean it is

so original, it's so personal, and this is needed.

Eugene (13:07)
Yeah, I think so too. Without a doubt. Now more than ever, I think. B you know, in the moment

Oscar (13:12)
Hmm. Yeah.

Eugene (13:13)
where culture feels so impoverished and so kind of overtaken by pop optimists.

Oscar (13:21)
Totally. I I I

and and there are so few people being independent thinkers on fashion. That's why I appreciate what you do so much because I mean when you s when you read on on Instagram or on on on on other in in magazines it it's it's also it's it's always so so incredibly unpersonal, it's so

It's so superficial, it's so hysterical, it's so meaningless. yeah, people should think about it independently and write about it independently. Because we have these acad

Eugene (14:03)
Yeah. Well thank you. I appreciate it.

Oscar (14:06)
Yeah, we have academics who write about fashion. Like it's and then I think it's so s okay, it's good. I mean you cannot say that that the associations are wrong or or they give information, but it's not

personal. It's not there's no passion in it. It's it's like it's washed on a hundred degrees and it's like too white. It's too I don't see anything vivid or meaningful in it. So when I wrote the book, I was like I

Eugene (14:35)
Yeah. Well Yeah.

Oscar (14:37)
I go against these academics. I mean

Eugene (14:40)
Mm.

Oscar (14:40)
they can be there, but it's not my task as a novelist to do as if I'm so educated that that that I can be

sterile or something, I have to go under the skin and make it passionate.

Eugene (14:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So let's let's talk about the book then. And from what I understand, the idea for the book came partly from Heard Brulot and that that you know, the idea that the story of the sex should be out there bec and same as doing the exhibition for the fortieth and not the fiftieth anniversary because you know, everyone's getting old and

Oscar (15:20)
We were all alive,

was yeah.

Eugene (15:22)
Yeah,

yeah. And we sa you know, and un it's so unfortunate that Marina passed away untimely before the exhibit.

Oscar (15:28)
Yeah.

Eugene (15:31)
And it's like gear you know, it's like well here I had a premonition.

Oscar (15:37)
Yeah. Tree.

Eugene (15:39)
so tell me about like the initial stages a bit and how the book came about, and I also want to know how each of the six strike you as

people as you interviewed them

Oscar (15:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (15:54)
and got to know them a bit.

Oscar (15:56)
Yeah, I I I want to be open about it. I feel I feel safe enough with you. I had this dinner at Anne Mannister when she spoke about this exhibition that would be would take place in this year. It was two years ago, and she said, Well somebody has to write about it. and then I really thought, Okay, this is I mean, I I want to be modest, but I

have to do it and I think I'm the only one being able to do it. I mean I I know where they come from and I know how to be how to write under the skin of people. I've written like twenty family novels. I I know about groups and groups identity and and all the things going on between people that are forced to be together in a way. I thought I will do it. And then I took contact with Geert, who was the curator of the

Show and asked him, Can I join you? Like look over your shoulder to get to know more about the six and their history that was never really written down. and he was open to it. He know he knows my work and he was like, okay, this is a good idea. And the very last reunion of the six two years ago was in a museum.

Geert was talking about the exhibition, the six were there and I was there talking about my project to write a book under the skin. And they were all enthusiastic. I mean they were all like, okay, that's a good idea. Not a journalist writing about us like always, a novelist. So they were like open and of course I will I really appreciated it. and I started off doing the interviews with them over over a period of one and a half year.

And they were really open. but what they didn't realize was that they also spoke about each other. It was more than just the monologues of the six, it was also the interaction that was clear to me. And I also had my own observations. And I also was interested in the role of Girt, who is a sort of spokesman of the Six, and also

Eugene (18:16)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (18:17)
yeah, he he helped them to to explode in a way.

So for me, he also was a character. And

Eugene (18:26)
Yeah.

Oscar (18:26)
at a certain moment I I felt that Geert was like curating me also a bit, because he said, okay, don't write about

Eugene (18:33)
Ha.

Oscar (18:34)
this because this is like the reason why they split and y we cannot talk about this. This is too painful. And I'm not looking for trouble, but I felt it as my task to be this person that would write a book on the six, the real story. I mean, this is

about humans that yeah that want to grow and want and that are ambitious and that are perhaps not friends like they present themselves. And along the process of writing the book, yeah, Marina fell ill, this whole process of her having her last month, her last weeks, her last days, I was close to her.

And from her perspective, this whole group of six people or yeah, became super existential. It was fashion, but it it was also about life and death and about why do you live and why do you make things that you make and what does it mean to be a group celebrating your fortieth birthday and then not caring for each other. So I

Eugene (19:45)
Mm.

Oscar (19:46)
was a bit on the side of of Marina and

The story got a bit sick and ill too and I just wanted to write it down and it had to be a mirror. So the day of the opening I I was planning to to go there to give the to give the the to give the six or the the five the books, to look them in the eyes and to say, Okay, this is the mirror I made for you.

but

Eugene (20:17)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (20:18)
before I c I could go there was this telephone call already from the director of the Fashion Museum in Antwerp to ask if I I I I I would stay home and the book would wouldn't be on sale in a museum and they were angry they didn't have they didn't have time to read the book, but they already felt that it would that there were like really personal things in it.

Eugene (20:42)
Mm.

Oscar (20:43)
so this was the start of a sort of commotion that

helped the book enormously but showed also that a museum is is not the place where you find the real deepness of the people represented by the museum. I mean they it's they they made this feel good show on the six which is great it's also important and you can also feel good when you see the work but yeah

Eugene (21:15)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (21:16)
Book is is really something else. And it's it's in the press release they said the book is too personal. And then I thought, okay, let's have a discussion on how personal you can be. Can fashion designers be like real human beings? Is the personal, is it not the the the reason why they make what they make? it's

Eugene (21:36)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (21:36)
a whole discussion. And this discussion never really took place because they I couldn't speak with them. Also here it was really

angry because I spoke about this love affair between Geert and Dries van Noten more than 40 years ago. Can you imagine?

Eugene (21:54)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (21:55)
And they were like very angry that this was part of the book. And for me, the people the person most in control of of all six was Dries van Noten. He's very much into control, into what he wants to tell and when you ask him

Tell me something about you. Then he starts in 1850, and his great-grandfather was a tailor, and his grandfather started this shop, and then his father these other shops, and then it's it's a it's a whole family history, which is beautiful, and I really like his work. But f I I heard so many stories about his explosive site, that I

Eugene (22:39)
Mm.

Oscar (22:40)
found it important also this to describe him as

somebody in control and being very explosive. And the explosion

Eugene (22:47)
Mm, mm-hmm.

Oscar (22:49)
was in fact that I was not invited in the museum and that that you won't find my book in the museum. it is because of of this. And I worked for one and a half

Eugene (23:00)
Hmm, that's a shame.

Oscar (23:02)
year yeah, I worked for one and a half year in a library called the Dries van Norton Library in in a museum of the the fashion museum. And

That one man with a with yeah, can can stop it. I think it's it's interesting. I I saw it as a present, I as as as a big gift and

Yeah.

Marina was the other side of of the control. She was without any control. She was like totally black and white.

Eugene (23:37)
Yeah. That comes across in the book.

Oscar (23:40)
Yeah, she was like when I we walked out after the the very last reunion, we we went we we walked out the door together and she was like, Come and have a coffee with me and I will tell you the real story of the six. And

Eugene (23:53)
Mm.

Oscar (23:53)
I said, Marina, you all tell me the real story of the six.

No, but I can do it because I I have nothing to lose. I I I want to to tell you everything. And she taught me also everything. I know so much

Eugene (24:07)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (24:08)
more and and I also got to know Marina a bit more because she's very extreme. She was extreme in our love and she was also extreme in our in our hate. sorry to use this word. and her story was in fact the story of her and Margella. So Margella came

Eugene (24:27)
Yeah.

Oscar (24:27)
in the book.

Like very naturally, because Marina doesn't exist without without Margella because she thinks that Margella has stolen her from herself by copy

Eugene (24:41)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (24:42)
pasting her identity in his first shows.

Eugene (24:45)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (24:46)
by as teenagers they were already friends by introducing him him to deconstructivism. yeah.

For me, it's not important if it's true or not true. It it's about her imagination that goes like this. It's all about imagination, also my imagination. but it it was interesting to see Margella as a person between the six, like invisible but but very important. I mean I think he

Eugene (25:18)
Yeah.

Oscar (25:19)
opened the door for them in a sense. And I also understand that he

didn't want to have anything to do with the six because he wanted to do his

Eugene (25:28)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (25:29)
individual thing. And yeah. This this tension between the six and Margella, yeah, asks for a new book, which w would I th which I certainly wanna write, yeah.

Eugene (25:45)
Yeah. It's it to me well I'm sorry to hear about the reception for the book.

Oscar (25:55)
It's it's only the reception of the museum because in in the press

Eugene (25:58)
Mm.

Oscar (25:59)
and in in the in the bookstores the book is a very big success. So it's it's not only I mean I like you to be sorry, but I also like you to not be sorry in happy for me.

Eugene (26:11)
Okay. Then I won't be sorry. so you you touched upon something I wanted to ask you about, that because

On the one hand, it does seem fair to me that designers want to be judged by their work only, and they do not necessarily want to reveal their personal lives, their character, because we all have s dark sides, we all have things that we are

maybe ashamed to be in with Drees. Drees from the book, he is not an unsympathetic character at all. He's a tragic character to me, from what I got from the book, because it is his Jesuit upbringing, his unfeeling

Oscar (27:11)
Course.

Eugene (27:12)
parents that really, you know, he literally says that the Jesuit education destroyed me.

Oscar (27:20)
Yeah.

Eugene (27:20)
You know, it really broke me.

it's I mean i it's it's a quote, right? This is what Drees says, yeah, it completely

Oscar (27:29)
Everything is said in the book, yeah.

Eugene (27:31)
broke me. and so he doesn't come across to me you know, he he comes across as a tragic character to me. That you know, that the

Oscar (27:41)
Yeah.

Eugene (27:41)
man because of his upbringing, as you say, has a peculiar relationship with feelings.

Oscar (27:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Eugene (27:52)
Right.

and having interviewed Reese a couple of times, I could tell that he's extremely guarded. But it's not a flaw, you know, like it's like to me it's not a flaw. It's it's something I feel a lot of sympathy with.

Oscar (28:12)
I also felt a lot of sympathy. And and when I I when I described the the the the love that he felt for for Geert, who's the curator of this show, but also of other shows of of Dries, and they have a a lifelong relationship and he's also one of the curators here of the show in Venice in the Fundazione Dries for Notum. when I described this this group of people and also Girt

I have to write this down. I mean this is important that it's also based on love. And sometimes you love a person and you don't know what the love really means. Perhaps it means we become friends, perhaps it means we we go and work together and we make beautiful creative projects. You don't know when you

Eugene (28:58)
Mm.

Oscar (28:58)
meet a person what is the attraction. And for me this is

Eugene (29:02)
Yeah.

Oscar (29:02)
such a beautiful story. So really my love for Drees is enormous, but the reaction of Drees is like

hysterical and these are two things that I cannot bring together easily in a sort of big red heart beating no, I don't know.

Eugene (29:23)
Yeah.

Yeah yeah. who comes out to me unsympathetic from that book is Marjella. Is the only person to me and you know and that relationship between him and Marina that does not feel healthy, you know, from from the book. And I'm sure Marina

Oscar (29:45)
this is the perspective of

Eugene (29:47)
was a very complicated character.

Oscar (29:50)
Yeah. Yeah, this is an interesting relationship. It's it's about two characters that yeah.

that influenced each other and loved each other, needed each other but couldn't be together and then

From Marina's perspective, this has been a sort of very negative story, but I don't know the the perspective of Margella. And I will

Eugene (30:21)
Yeah, yeah.

Oscar (30:21)
find out. This is my my purpose to to see it from different perspectives. but it's yeah, in in the end it looked like who wants to have the the last word? Who gets the last word? And by refusing Margella to come and say goodbye,

Marina had the last word. And to me she said Ma Marjella came th thirty years too late. Has he

Eugene (30:49)
Hm.

Oscar (30:50)
has dominated my life and ruined it in a way, but no. And she didn't want to read his goodbye letter and yeah, this is painful, but it doesn't make Marjella like unsympathetic, I guess.

And why should people be sympathetic? This this is something else. This is another question. People shouldn't be sympathetic. People can be great artists and and good in their job and have perhaps yeah personal psychological issues and I'm sure all of them had their issues. And I'm sure you have your issues. Yeah. I have so many

Eugene (31:29)
Yeah, as we all do. As we all do.

Oscar (31:33)
issues, that's why I became a writer. I mean

Eugene (31:35)
Yeah,

exactly.

Oscar (31:36)
Also this

I'm I'm so honest with myself and so so cruel that I that for me it's normal to be it also with other people and see it as a sort of love. For me it's a it's a declaration

Eugene (31:47)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (31:48)
of interest if you if you really dig into somebody else and try to see it

Eugene (31:53)
Yeah. Well

Oscar (31:54)
all.

Eugene (31:55)
well, isn't the whole idea of deconstruction and imperfection and offness is to reflect

Oscar (32:02)
Clear.

Eugene (32:03)
our human imperfection, which is the most human thing about us. And to be so

Oscar (32:07)
Yeah.

Eugene (32:10)
afraid of this and to want to control that so much, I feel it's kind of a loss, to be honest. You know, on a human level.

Like the the desire to present well, of course we're talking about fashion, right? But the desire to present this

Oscar (32:30)
Yeah, yeah, field is special, yeah.

Eugene (32:33)
kind of flawless facade. no, and and I I mean I get it because it is hard, you know. I mean Pink Floyd wrote the entire album about this, right? That's what the wall is about.

Oscar (32:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's

Eugene (32:49)
and

So yeah, I guess the question I wanted to go back to is designers do want to be judged by their work, and it does seem fair for them to ask for a certain type of okay, privacy. Well, I mean they also could have just told you no, we're not gonna do this, right? So they agreed to it.

Oscar (33:15)
But they they not only agreed, they also agreed not to read it beforehand. So

Eugene (33:20)
Right.

Oscar (33:21)
all the journalists that wrote about it were like this book is impossible, that couldn't have been written because normally they want to control everything and this time they didn't ask anything. The book was out and they yeah. Anne the Melmist

Eugene (33:35)
Yeah.

Oscar (33:36)
was a was different and and I was really happy to hear this. Anne said, Okay, for me this is

Just kids of the Antwerp Six. And

that's true. I mean, this is about how people find their way.

Eugene (33:51)
Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly.

Oscar (33:52)
to through friction and

projection and and love and friendship and pain everything together.

Eugene (34:00)
Yeah.

Yeah yeah. anyway, I did want to go back to my original question. How did the each of the six strike you as people as you you spent quite a bit of time with them?

Oscar (34:14)
Yeah. so so let's start somewhere. With Marina Yee, for instance. She

Eugene (34:20)
Sure. I mean she

kind of hovers like a fallen angel over the whole project, it seems like.

Oscar (34:26)
She is a fallen

angel. She is fashion. She is anti-fashion in person. In in her not controlling, in her openness, in in embracing everything that is painful and ugly and perhaps destroyed. she's the only designer who worked alone with her clothes. She didn't have anybody working for her, so she was there with a dress or a coat.

opening it up, deconstructing it, talking to it at night, smoking, drinking, whatever. but it was a genuine relationship she had with every piece of clothing. And for this reason sh she couldn't be a a successful designer for for so many years and she had to stop because it doesn't work like this. But then eight years ago she she met this

Ralph Adriansen who offered her to work together and he would bring out clothing of hers and it became very successful very quickly because people hadn't forgotten her. So it came a bit late and then she got ill and it's all part of this she's tragic, but she's also I've never seen such a powerful person being so sick.

And giving so much beautiful energy to the people that visited her. she was very, very powerful and beautiful. And the compliment I got that was the most important one for this book was of the only son of Marina, who told me you finally found words for her pain and her soul. yeah. I

Eugene (36:20)
Mm.

Oscar (36:20)
think the book is about Marina.

And and the other five. D don't you agree? You you read it? Don't you think she's

Eugene (36:28)
I read it twice.

Oscar (36:30)
Okay.

Eugene (36:30)
on and on some level y she does well, she is the consummate she is the artist of the six. She is a true artist. She's not a fashion designer to me, you know, because a fashion designer is a designer. You know, there there there are concerns even there is creativity involved, but

There are other conserves that make a designer a designer and not an artist, and that's absolutely fine. Marina strikes me as a consummate artist. and you know, that's why she never could have succeeded commercially.

Oscar (37:07)
Hm. Yeah.

Eugene (37:11)
and that's also fine. but it and yes, she does hover over the entire book because she's the most open. the other five

Seem much more controlled in how they present themselves, you know.

Oscar (37:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (37:31)
And always has the same message. We worked hard, we worked hard, we worked hard, we worked hard. You know. Drees' message, it's like it's kind of amazing what happens. I have this family history. Yeah.

Oscar (37:43)
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Eugene (37:48)
And you know, with Dirk Bic Dirk Bickenbergs, who left, he's kind of like

I don't give a shit about anything, you know, like this is great and this is what happened and

Oscar (37:55)
Well it is always tragedy though.

Eugene (37:58)
Yeah, and it's n it was lovely of him to acknowledge that without Marina he could not exist. And

Oscar (38:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (38:08)
but that is also someone who left fashion and no, so it's like, you know, it's always I always say like I'm just gonna talk to designers who retired because like what's the point?

of talking with designers who have not, because they have so much to protect. And it kind of felt that Marina had she was like, I have nothing to protect. I'm just gonna tell you, you know, how it was from my side. And we do have to remember, and I think you rightfully said, you know, these are their truths, their own individual truths. You know,

Oscar (38:41)
Hmm. True.

Eugene (38:43)
memories get hazy. It's been forty

Oscar (38:46)
Yeah.

Eugene (38:46)
years.

But yes, Marina does seem to be like the most unguarded of all of them and said like I have nothing to fight, you know. yeah, she she she was the wild child

of

Oscar (39:01)
Yeah.

Eugene (39:02)
the bunch.

Oscar (39:04)
And seeing herself on the first show of Margella and then deciding to stop being a designer and then starting to live with him in Paris for three years. So this this like okay,

Eugene (39:16)
It's crazy. She yeah.

Oscar (39:19)
you kill me, so I live with you. Till the moment that she walks

Eugene (39:22)
Yeah, yeah. This is

Oscar (39:24)
out the door, like in nineteen ninety two and came to Brussels and fell pregnant and then

On her deathbed still imagining that the child could have been Margellus or whatever. It was just like a delirium. but I mean always opa leaving the door open for him.

Eugene (39:46)
Yeah. It's crazy. I mean that is

Oscar (39:48)
Yeah.

Eugene (39:52)
It is a very heartbreaking story. And I and again I gotta say, like I'm just gonna say it and I've suspected that about Marjella for a while from the stories that I've heard. And yeah, he's like, you know 'cause there's also a story how he accuses And Milimister of copying him. Like at Dirk Van Senna's show, like sh brings her to tears.

Oscar (40:19)
Yeah. It's it's yeah,

yeah.

Eugene (40:21)
And the way he's always been sniping at them, like, look at me, I'm in Paris, you know. And I w I do want to

Oscar (40:27)
Yeah, yeah, Paris.

Eugene (40:28)
break some news because like Margella has become such a cult that it's kind of and look, I'm as much of a Margella's fan as anyone is for what he's done, not diminishing his work, but the cult of Marjella has become kind of s it's starting to irritate me and

Oscar (40:49)
Yeah, me too.

Eugene (40:49)
This auction

he just did, I don't know if you saw, you know, like a pair of tabbies he had went for two hundred

Oscar (40:53)
Yesterday. Yeah.

Eugene (40:55)
eighty thousand dollars. And I'm like, you know what? Let's break some myths.

Oscar (41:01)
Yeah. I will break the mist. I will I would I really want to go

Eugene (41:04)
Yeah. I'm looking forward to that. I I really I I'm really looking forward.

Oscar (41:09)
in this mist and and try to find keys and also find a reason for it. Or because he's a saint and and his fans are disciples. There's something unhealthy in it. And this hysteria

Eugene (41:22)
Yeah. Exactly.

Oscar (41:25)
in fashion is not the the thing I like most in fashion. I think it's

Eugene (41:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oscar (41:32)
it's so shallow. It's it's a pity. Why don't why don't we connect to people and and try to understand each other and wear each other, whatever, but yeah.

But Anne, you said you I know

Eugene (41:44)
So yeah.

Oscar (41:46)
Anne Müllermeister and she's w in in her in her yeah, in her working hard and Patty Smith and Arthur Rambault, yes. But still I think in the book she's she's vulnerable and we got to know her relationship with her husband, with Patrick Robin.

Eugene (42:04)
Mm.

Oscar (42:05)
And I think for people that that read the book, Anne was together with a person. They they made work together.

I mean she is the fashion designer for for sure, but Patrick Robin was also sort of art director for her. And their their their

Eugene (42:20)
Yeah. Yeah.

Oscar (42:22)
love affair that is based on on an enormous artistic desire or real well whatever, it's it's tremendous. It's it's very beautiful to see two people being so fertile together.

Eugene (42:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. And I think that's also a great story that more people should know. I I'm I'm glad Patrick's been kind of coming out of the shadows in the past years and i it it's great that because he really has done a lot and it's a nice story in the book for sure. And he is a very sweet guy with a phenomenal sense of humor.

Oscar (43:07)
And and for the six of the emperor of course,

but f for the six he was important. He was a bit a bridge because he he he could move freely because he was not connected with his own name. He was like he could free move freely from Dries to Marina to to Dirk to to to the others and

Eugene (43:27)
Yeah.

Oscar (43:27)
work with them. And Anne would be like sturdy doing her own thing, but he was a free bird.

Beautiful.

Eugene (43:38)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oscar (43:41)
Yeah.

And then Walter van Bieren dunk. Yeah, Walter. He the funny thing is he didn't change after forty years. He's still this guy

Eugene (43:50)
Okay.

Oscar (43:51)
making these drawings and being like totally into it and and and creating these creatures that are f not from this world and are like outrageous and very, very beautiful clothing and perfectly made. but it's not fashion.

It's just a repetition of of his vision on fashion, but it it's it's it's it's anti fashion in a in another way. It's it's

Eugene (44:20)
Mm.

Oscar (44:21)
his f fantasy. Has nothing to do with seasons. Yeah.

Eugene (44:23)
Yeah, yeah. It is a worldview, you know. Yeah, it is a it is

a a fantastic world view. that I really respect. I mean, even though it's completely not my style, but I really respect and also the longevity

Oscar (44:36)
No, I don't see you it is

Eugene (44:39)
but also the longevity of Walter is kind

Oscar (44:41)
Yeah.

Eugene (44:42)
of amazing, you know, he has soldiered on all these years and it has not been easy.

Oscar (44:49)
No, but sometimes you wish people give up just for the sake of doing something else and and discovering

Eugene (44:55)
Hmm.

Oscar (44:56)
something else. But he's just like going on.

Eugene (45:00)
Yeah

yeah yeah yeah.

Oscar (45:01)
I I wish him an

afterlife where he will do totally different things.

Eugene (45:07)
I'm sure I'm sure he will. and and Dirk van Seine and Dirk Bickenbergs, how did they strike you as people?

Oscar (45:18)
Dick Bigambeck struck me because he was so openly like strategic and he had ideas of this works, this doesn't work, this kind of clothing doesn't exist for these people that like football and we have to bring in sports and fashion and he just did it. He worked hard and just did it without really loving it and then stepping out of it and doing just nothing. He has a swimming

Eugene (45:43)
Yeah.

Oscar (45:43)
pool in Klebstadt, he has a swimming pool in Rio de Janeiro.

And it's just a square blue thing, and he looks at it and he feels at peace. Is this you can call this spiritual, you can call this wise, I don't know what it is. And

Eugene (46:00)
Yeah.

Oscar (46:01)
Dirk Van San is just a very, very talented, crazy person that is so extremely fast bored that he doesn't continue with what he does.

and tries something else or turns his back and and says, I stop, and then so you couldn't count on him. And underneath he was also a bit dangerously perverse in a way, mean, is it a joke? Is it like hurting somebody?

Eugene (46:36)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (46:37)
so in this group dynamic, it's it's an he he played an important role and

He made this publication where he made jokes about everyone, that was the end of the six. This we can say. It was called Bambi.

Eugene (46:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Oscar (46:52)
It was a publication in nineteen ninety three and it was just too much. It was the moment that everybody said, Okay, now we're past.

Eugene (47:01)
Yeah, yeah. And that was really the rift between Anne

Oscar (47:04)
Yeah.

Eugene (47:05)
and Patrick and Walter

Oscar (47:07)
Yeah.

Eugene (47:08)
and Dirk, right? And why do it? I don't

Oscar (47:16)
I I think

Eugene (47:16)
Was it was

he jealous?

Oscar (47:19)
I think when people are so much in control and you are a big kid with a sort of gladness and a sort of openness and a sort of yeah I think he said this I I d they these people take themselves so seriously come on, I will make a joke. And if they laugh they laugh. If they don't laugh they're just like what are they worth? I mean if you cannot laugh about yourself, what does it mean?

Eugene (47:47)
Mm.

Oscar (47:48)
I think he he just couldn't cope with his control. He's just too playful. And I love him and in

Eugene (47:53)
Yeah.

Oscar (47:54)
in I got to love him, although he's yeah, he's a little Scorpio, yeah.

Eugene (48:01)
So Marina says literally about him, right? He is a little scorpion. And I was like, ouch. That's rough.

Oscar (48:04)
Yeah. Yeah. Ouch, he hurts. It's it's like

this insect in a room that you just want to chase away. But yeah,

Eugene (48:14)
Yeah.

Oscar (48:14)
I love him.

Eugene (48:18)
I I do want to go back to the early years of the Antwerp Six because it seems to you are more or less contemporaries, right? Yeah,

Oscar (48:30)
Yeah.

Eugene (48:31)
more or less. So you were there for what I got from

Oscar (48:34)
Six years younger.

Eugene (48:35)
Yeah. You were there, it seems to me, more or less, for this cultural moment that they all credit

with their cultural awakening, right? And a lot of it had to do with David Bowie and Glam Rock and then Punk in the mid

Oscar (48:54)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (48:56)
seventies. And also they cite as instrumental a magazine called Avenue and then another magazine that was called Flair that came later from I understand.

Oscar (49:07)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (49:09)
can you talk a little bit about those formative years

before in the ac and in the academy we could say and what Antwerp was like.

Oscar (49:23)
it it was very music driven. It was all about music and every music had its own style and it ha had its own way of of dressing up. And I think via music fashion idea ideas came up. but it was also a time where you were w or you were disco or you were new wave or you liked David Bowie or you liked the BGs or whatever, it doesn't matter.

It was very polarized. And so all six had their own kind of their own love for a certain music and brought in their own styles. so you had the music. it was pre-digital, so people were like physical together. You needed each other physically to to see each other. You couldn't just go to a telephone booth to

Call each other, you would not find each other. So you needed to go out to to meet up. So it was really important to be physically there and looking at each other and and being inspired by each other. So people would dress up also to inspire each other. So it was all about it was very physical. It would we no Instagram, nothing, no, no, no magazines that that that were really

representing their taste. So it was all new and c being created on the spot. so yeah. So would

Eugene (51:00)
And also naive,

right? Sa what what some of them cite

Oscar (51:04)
They didn't have

Eugene (51:05)
naivete as kind of a what let them try things and I've been thinking about naivete a lot and how we are all a little bit too well informed on some level and we're kind of

Oscar (51:22)
Okay. True.

Eugene (51:24)
drowning under this information.

And it's not letting us say, Well, let's just try it.

Oscar (51:31)
So they lived in this

yeah, they they they didn't have so much information. They didn't have any information. You had these these few magazines, and a school that was really like the academy was really still living in a sort of Chanel area area. there they they didn't know. They didn't know what they were doing. They they were just enthusiastic and they would

They just wanted to to make things and they didn't have any example. There was nothing in Belgium. They saw the Japanese, of course, and they saw Frazace and they they they saw the French designers, but so the they reacted on on them, but there was not so so much information. They didn't have the feeling that they had to to make so many choices like you have, or younger generations had. people are over informed, totally true. How is it for you?

Eugene (52:25)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Oscar (52:30)
Where's your naivety?

Eugene (52:33)
my naivete is reflected in this sticker we just made. I am showing Oscar New Styles I got sticker that says no commercial potential. so my navi my naivete is that

Style Zeitgeist is a broke magazine, but I'm going to say what I want to say and what I feel is the truth and no one's going to stop me.

Oscar (53:06)
It's that's wonderful. And it and

Eugene (53:06)
So but

Oscar (53:10)
it doesn't stop with fashion with you because I I I I read you and and you write about

Eugene (53:14)
No.

Oscar (53:15)
other things, your your identity, your arrival in in the States, being a youngster in in New York. I mean this is the

Eugene (53:23)
Yeah.

Oscar (53:24)
identity thing is much larger than just fashion, no?

Eugene (53:28)
For sure. But that's also so tied up to fashion and that's why again going back to the original question, why write a book about designers as people? And what you said in the beginning, well, their work stems from them being people.

Oscar (53:45)
Yeah. Where where

could it stem from if

Eugene (53:46)
It's you cannot

Oscar (53:48)
not?

Eugene (53:49)
yeah, I b exactly. so but yeah, to about naivete, I do feel like we were gonna have to think designers gonna have to rediscover it at some point because we are drowning in this postmodernist malaise.

Oscar (54:07)
Yeah.

Eugene (54:08)
and we're gonna have to find a way out of it at some point. Don't ask me how.

I don't have the recipe, but I do think naivete is a big part of that. and to be impressed. There was so I mean, look, I always say on some level, let's face it, the Six were incredibly lucky, the period they were in. It was the most fertile period. because they talk about even the designers, they talk about that now we can't even imagine in the same sense. They talk about how

Innovative Armani and Versace war. It's like, wow. Now with you know, people think Versace, they think it's just vulgar, garish kind of stuff, and Armani is just boring gray linen. And it's hard to understand how innovative, you know, from what I understand, Margella was a huge fan of Armani. And the reason he spent

Oscar (55:06)
yeah.

Eugene (55:07)
the year in Italy at the beginning is that he wanted to.

work at Armani and Armani wouldn't give him a job and no one would give him a job and he ended up working at a pizzeria some somewhere and then it and he learned Italian and the reason that Gauthier initially Gautier initially won Dirk Van Senni, right? Because Derma Dirk Van Senni won the golden spool and Gauthier was like come work for me and Dirk was like no which is another type of name it's

Oscar (55:36)
Yeah. No. No, I I will miss my dog. Yeah. Yeah. It's

so much jella came in. Yeah.

Eugene (55:42)
Yeah, it's like Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And so he was like, Well Margella, you speak Italian. I need someone in Italy to work on these secondary lines, you know. Again, this is not to s diminish Margella in any way. That is to say that people start out in roundabout ways and it doesn't mean what they're going to become is how they start out, basically.

Oscar (56:08)
No, no.

Eugene (56:12)
So

yeah, it was naive, it was a very fertile period because you had Versace and Armani, you had Mugler and Montana and Gautier, you had Reiko of Kubo and Yochimura, and you had Vivian Westwood, and all these things must have been just like blowing their minds and at the same time telling them, fashion can be something else. It's just not Yves Saint Laurent making frogs for odd bourgeoisie. It can be something.

Oscar (56:41)
Was waiting for something new at that very moment. The boutiques wanted to buy something new. And here they go. They came to London, the six-pack, six different tastes from a country that they didn't know, names that they couldn't pronounce. They were extremely lucky. And when you

Eugene (57:01)
Yeah. Yes.

Oscar (57:02)
talk with them, they don't admit. They don't say we were lucky. They only say, Yeah, we worked so hard and we really had some.

Eugene (57:10)
Yeah, yeah, they're like,

we work hard and everything. It does seem from what I understand that what they presented sort of was well made because they had access to Belgian

Oscar (57:19)
Mm-hmm.

Eugene (57:19)
manufacturing. but here's another thing that I want to say. Barney's Barney's, which is the most progressive department store in the entire world, came and bought.

Six collections from six unknown designers from a country, no one would say, you know, Belgium and fashion in the same sentences. Who's gonna do this today? No one. No one. No one's gonna go and take a chance on someone just because they liked it, because they're like, you know what? This is cool. I'm gonna buy this.

Oscar (58:00)
And you're right.

Eugene (58:02)
No no store, let alone a department. And okay, like Barney's, they never saw themselves as a department store. They it was like a very large fashion store. But again, to take a chance on someone like that, and it's like people don't do that anymore. I'm sure as an author too, now they're like, What's your Instagram following before before you give a pitch and you know?

Oscar (58:26)
Yeah.

Yeah. perhaps it's a good idea to to just do it. Open up a shop and just invest in something that people don't know.

Eugene (58:38)
Yeah, exactly.

so the it does seem like culture was a very fertile it was a very fertile moment for experimentation.

Oscar (58:53)
And then

there was this next wave of people from from Antwerp. So it just continued. And people would come to

Eugene (59:01)
Yeah. Which it took a while,

right? Because they were kind of overshadowing for a bit. Their success was so

Oscar (59:07)
For a bit, but

then at the end of the nineties it it was clear that Rough Simmons was had arrived. Huh? And Vieronic Bronchino

Eugene (59:14)
Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Oscar (59:16)
and the others, yeah.

Eugene (59:19)
Yeah, that's a whole other podcast that I'm gonna do is on the second Belgian wave because that was really you know, I mean I fell in love with fashion when I saw Anthem the Mister's clothes for the first time and just blew my mind, you know. But that was already late nineties and the second wave of Belgians was coming out, so it was s such a rich ecosystem which we

Oscar (59:46)
Yeah.

Eugene (59:46)
no longer have.

I was swimming in it. You know, so what else do you think was instrumental to their success?

Oscar (1:00:10)
Apart from this country that nobody knew, the names that they couldn't pronounce, the six very different styles that they represented. their over professionality, they could deliver.

Eugene (1:00:24)
Mm.

Oscar (1:00:25)
I mean, I heard stories that that the young designers in London could sell but could could not deliver. They couldn't make what they promised

Eugene (1:00:33)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:00:33)
to deliver. I mean, there was this industry behind it. They were also helped by this

These institutions that would try to stimulate the Belgian textile industry. So there was some help also. In the book I also described people that were the helpers, like just people

Eugene (1:00:53)
Mm-hmm.

Oscar (1:00:54)
that didn't know fashion but came at the right moment in the right place to help them out.

Eugene (1:01:00)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:01:01)
So it it it it's almost like all the the whole constellation of of the cosmos was helping the six to to appear and to

to to make this tremendous entry in the in the fashion world.

Eugene (1:01:17)
Yeah.

And I want to talk also ask you about to go back to the idea of an ecosystem, right? Because there were also in her grenade with the makeup and Ronald Stopes with the photography and then Curris with the graphic design.

Oscar (1:01:36)
Yes.

Eugene (1:01:37)
and then of course there were galleries and music and clubs and everything. It's the one thing I want to talk you know.

stresses ecosystem and another thing is you know fine we can say all we want there were six individuals they had different styles they wanted to have different styles right because they were so

Oscar (1:01:59)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:02:00)
ambitious and they didn't want to be left in and yet and yet they were a group and what I keep telling

fashion

the fashion industry and especially young fashion designers there is a strength in being a group forget this myth of lonely artist sitting on a mountain you know of this genius a group is a story you know and you are going to exchange creative energy and you are going to put something together

Who knows what would have happened if Yoji and Ray were not a couple and Yoji did not convince her to go to Paris at the same time? Would we be talking about Japanese fashion today the way we do now? Would we be talking about Belgian fashion the way we do now without the Antwerp Six?

Oscar (1:02:57)
Yeah. True. But there are examples of people that wanted to copy paste the group thing because as what you say, it's it's important to be a group, you can help each other, you are visible as a group, you can be discovered as a group. But that didn't work either because it was it was not honest to copy paste this just for the success. It has to be like a natural thing to do, to be together in an environment.

I think when a world in this world where fashion and young fashion designers have so much difficulties, it will naturally come this moment that people just end up being together and making things because if not it doesn't work. So I think the need is there and then it will and then it will come.

Eugene (1:03:48)
I hope so. I hope so. I

Oscar (1:03:50)
Do you see it? Because you

you spent your summer in Europe. Did you see some?

Eugene (1:03:56)
Yeah, I don't

Oscar (1:03:56)
Group and then she.

Eugene (1:03:58)
see you know, I say these days, I see a lot of beautiful clothes, I don't see a lot of fashion. I don't see a lot of auteurs out there. I don't see a lot of clear preposition that is an aesthetic world that I could say I wanna live in that, you know.

Oscar (1:04:20)
Yeah, because

then I can be who I really am. So this this needs,

Eugene (1:04:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oscar (1:04:25)
I you're totally it's totally true. I don't feel it either.

Eugene (1:04:29)
Yeah,

but I see a lot of beautiful listen. If I want a nice coat, there are a thousand options today. But there isn't, you know, I mean Rick Owens is the last man standing here, right? That's someone's world. I

Oscar (1:04:42)
Course. Yeah.

Eugene (1:04:43)
wanna say, yeah, there's this is a world. You know, I don't want to just dip my toes in it. I want to know. That's an and that's another thing. I want to know why you did that. I don't want to know what why Michael's

Brighter did what he did at Celine. It's not interesting

Oscar (1:05:01)
Yeah, yes. True.

Eugene (1:05:03)
because I was like, I'm like, I have nothing to ask you because because your because your clothes don't make me ask any questions. When I saw Anzy Millemisters clothes for the first time, I was like, I want to know what you listen to because I know I can because I can have a pretty clear idea of what you.

listen to but I don't know for sure. So I am curious. When

Oscar (1:05:30)
Mm.

Eugene (1:05:31)
I saw Helmut Lang's clothes for the first time, was like, what is this? How can you make something that I already know

Oscar (1:05:39)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:05:40)
so unfamiliar at the same time? How can you make me think of a denim jacket? I've never thought of a denim jacket in my life because it was just a denim jacket. Now

Oscar (1:05:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (1:05:50)
you're saying a denim jacket could be like that. So I wanna ask you

You know, and that's kind of what made me become a journalist also. and I see less and less of that, unfortunately. And with the six, there were definitely, you know, questions and sometimes very surprising answers. I remember like asking Walter, I was like, Walter, so

Oscar (1:06:11)
Not

Eugene (1:06:14)
tell me about the camp aspect of your work. And he was like, What are you talking about? And I'm like, Well, your your work is clearly it's camp. And he was like, Absolutely not.

And I'm like, yeah, but you know, like, have you seen your work? And but it also

Oscar (1:06:31)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:06:32)
made me later understand because that Walter, you know, it can be loud it can be loud and prop provocative and funny, but he is serious in what you know he

Oscar (1:06:44)
Yeah.

Almost to the point of being boring, which is very f it's it's it's it's very extreme, like his seriousness and what you see. And the pleasure

Eugene (1:06:56)
Mm.

Oscar (1:06:57)
you get when you look at the his fashion. It's deadly serious, yeah.

Eugene (1:07:06)
is there anything else that surprised you about any of the six or their relationship as you were writing the book? anything that you were like, I didn't know this, any insights that came to you about any of them?

Oscar (1:07:27)
Well, I've I've found it surprising that Dries, for instance, did had didn't have any talent. He couldn't draw. Dick Baker couldn't draw. He he he was not admitted

Eugene (1:07:36)
Yes, that was so surprising when I read that. I I made a note of that. Thank you for bringing it up.

Oscar (1:07:41)
just by by a friend of his parents. He was like well, he could he could enter the school, the academy because they met in the opera

Eugene (1:07:49)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:07:49)
with the huh with the director the director. but still

Eugene (1:07:55)
Today he'd be called a nippo

baby. A nepo baby.

Oscar (1:07:57)
It's a Napal baby. Napal baby, yes. But

that it still works. I mean, there is no such a thing as as you have to have talent, you have to be able to draw, you have to be whatever. There are no rules. This is the most surprising thing that there are so many ways to become this these these artists, these fashion designers. But I I I never had thought thought that there would be so much

Full time busy creating their image. I I I I I was surprised that that this image building was so it was almost steel. Yeah, except from from Marina,

Eugene (1:08:40)
Mm.

Oscar (1:08:41)
but it this repetition of of of of associations of of names of of of artists that they were inspired by, this it's they played really safe.

they really constructed their image very yeah protectively and

Eugene (1:08:57)
Yeah. Yeah. It's

I I'm not surprised hearing you say that because there have been moments for me with Drees in particular, and again I say it with full respect, and I have

Oscar (1:09:16)
Yeah yeah.

Eugene (1:09:18)
huge respect for Drees' work. But there have been times where I was like I don't believe you.

You know, I'm looking at the work. I'm like, did you really like are you really a fan of suicide? I still got the sweatshirt, you know, obviously. But because I'm a fan of suicide. You know, but there

Oscar (1:09:37)
No. No.

Eugene (1:09:40)
have been moments I'm always like, you're always in the navy V neck. Do you really listen to suicide? I don't know. I so there have been moments where I'm like, mm, I'm finding hard to believe.

At the same time, I really want to underscore what you just said. There is no formula for human success. You know, it is and this is what I keep telling young people lives are enormously complicated. Enormously complicated. And also unfair. Also, maybe

Oscar (1:10:16)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:10:17)
someone else should have taken Drees' spot because he didn't know how to draw in that academy. But he didn't.

But now we have this incredible body of work that Drees was able to produce. and there were these girls in their class, right? Who just like, you know, they say who just were like were from haute bourgeoisie and were riding horses on the weekend, and their biggest aspiration was to design their own wedding dress, right? And where are they now? Well, I'm sure they're very happily married and riding horses at 60. and that's

Oscar (1:10:49)
Item horses, yeah.

Eugene (1:10:50)
totally fine. But but to repeat what you said, that you know, the

Path to success is incredibly complex, fraught, convoluted, and I don't know if there is such a thing that someone deserves something or someone doesn't deserve something. It's so hard to make that judgment.

Oscar (1:11:15)
Yeah, and and since this is a group you you compare and you see the differences and you see their life path and it's hard, yeah, to see the one does this, the other one does that and and

Eugene (1:11:28)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:11:30)
but still we talk about success, but you could we we could also talk about happiness or about feeling good in yourself. And Marina Marina really did this till the end.

And I know how the other ones struggle with still with identity, with are we successful enough? They still compare

Eugene (1:11:50)
Mm.

Oscar (1:11:52)
themselves with each other. I

Eugene (1:11:55)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:11:55)
think Dick Bickenbergs just stopped comparing, he's in the swimming pool.

Eugene (1:12:00)
Yeah. Amazing.

I mean, you know, props to you, Derek, that you were able to do this. To walk away, to walk away

Oscar (1:12:06)
Yeah, I think this is hardcore it's a hardcore decision. Walk away.

Eugene (1:12:11)
from this and just say, you know, the money is enough. And I don't need to come out every six months at the end of the show and receive applause. That is because let's face it, you you kind of have to be a narcissist to be a fashion designer.

On

some level.

Oscar (1:12:33)
Sure. What I found a bit weird, I I read in Le Numiro a sort of quote of Trice. because he made this show in his foundation, huh? The

Eugene (1:12:47)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:12:47)
Dries vanotto foundation in Venice. it's about beauty, and he's like,

Eugene (1:12:54)
Yes.

Oscar (1:12:55)
beauty is so important, beauty has so many faces. it's

you also have to it it must be deeply personal, an emotional roller coaster. And for me as a writer of this book, I think if you really believe this, then you embrace it, then you then you then you let tattoo the book on your on your back or whatever. You have to embrace imperfection. But the combination

Eugene (1:13:25)
Yeah.

Oscar (1:13:26)
of doing as if you like imperfection

and being totally in control is is is

Eugene (1:13:31)
Mm.

Oscar (1:13:32)
I don't get these two things together. Yeah. And then I think it's most yeah, the Yeah.

Eugene (1:13:36)
Well the roller coaster is in sight because the roller coaster does not go away.

Oscar (1:13:41)
No, and that was the reason I wanted to egg let him explode. Because I mean without the explosion there would be an another explosion. I mean the only way to

To deal with control is to let it go and to explode. So yeah.

Eugene (1:14:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. I do want to well, I don't want to end just yet because I want to ask you if there's something else we didn't want to talk about, but I do want to underscore again that the book is deeply human to me. And I think it should be read with sympathy and empathy both for people who

Have become successful not without a cost. and also that again, especially I'm asking young kids who have been told that only if you work hard you're gonna have everything. It is simply not true. It is simply not true. And the book shows that on some level, I think, that life is full of contradictions.

happy turns, self-destruction, and ch chance luck, hard work too, you know, but there's there's just so many variables and it's really, really complicated endeavor and there is no formula.

Oscar (1:15:18)
Now that must be liberating. Did you ever believe there was a formula for yourself?

Eugene (1:15:28)
no, I the at Oscar, everything I've done has been exactly naive. I was like, I'm just gonna do this. Here comes the naivete. Yeah, yeah. And by the

Oscar (1:15:34)
Yeah. Okay, yeah, there comes an IV T, of course, as opposed to a formula thinking. Of course, yeah, sure.

Eugene (1:15:41)
way, I'm gonna acknowledge all the best ideas were not my ideas. The idea is to start a stylezai guy started as a message board. Okay, that was my idea.

Oscar (1:15:52)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:15:53)
no, actually, it wasn't even my idea.

I was with a coworker and I was showing him I was on another message board and he was like, this is really cool. Like you seem to be really into it. Have you thought of starting your own? And I was like, I'm gonna think about this. And so I did. And then I was talking with another friend with whom I still work, and he was like, Dude, like magazines suck. You know, this is like twenty ten. He's like, If anyone should have a magazine, it should be you. Like there should be a style guys magazine.

And I was like, you know what? It's not a bad idea. And the idea for the stars for the and the idea for this podcast came from my assistant, Patrick, and from my wife, who, you know, because my wife was overhearing me interviewing Rick Owens, and then you know what happens, right? You interview someone for two hours, and then you put three quotes into an article. And she said, Well, if this was a podcast episode, this would have been much more infectual. So yeah.

None of the ideas came from me. I also ask people not to give me ideas anymore because I tend to execute them. and it's like that.

Oscar (1:17:03)
So you

you make space to receive. There is space in you to receive miracles or ideas. And I think if you are in

Eugene (1:17:10)
Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. We we have to be receptive.

Oscar (1:17:13)
control nothing can enter. It's just a closed body. It's I mean you have to be open and see what comes to you.

Eugene (1:17:23)
w without a doubt to me. Anyway, is there anything else that you've learned from as you were writing the book? anything else you want to note about the book? This is always my last question to someone. Tell me something I didn't ask you.

Oscar (1:17:47)
Well, it it's a very lonely process to to write a book on six people, to invest so much and to

Start thinking and feeling out of all their perspectives. you do it day and night, you dream about it, you sit in your bed and think, no, it's not possible. Why don't why don't they talk? I wanted to help them out. At a certain moment I wanted to make them a group because they weren't. when

Eugene (1:18:15)
Hm.

Oscar (1:18:16)
Marina was like dying, I was sending I I met Anne and I said, You have to go, you have to go and see her and talk to her.

The other ones didn't go. but the idea that as as a writer t of a biography of people you you feel responsible for them, which is a weird thing. Do you recognise this?

Eugene (1:18:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, no, of course. No, yeah. I mean, there have been moments where someone was so unguarded where I was like, I'm gonna leave that off the table, to protect you. Yeah, because listen, we all have moments.

Oscar (1:18:53)
Yeah.

Eugene (1:18:57)
well listen guys, there's so much more in the book. it's so much more it's so many great stories that I'm not gonna give away just yet. Though I've been tempted to like post pages on my Instagram stories, but I'm gonna wait till till the podcast comes out. there's a great story about how actually Marjella Tabby Boots came to life.

And came to be produced. There is a story of who actually designed f phenomenal Dirk Bickenberg's boot, of which I had three pairs. and that was

Oscar (1:19:41)
Right.

Eugene (1:19:41)
also mind-blowing when I encountered those. There were nothing like I've ever seen anything before. I remember like I was saving over one season.

And I bought like three pairs of like saving all my money for those going to like a store every week, like, okay, are they still there in my size? Are they still there and my size will not be there?

Oscar (1:20:01)
Yeah. And it was worth it because

it really changed you. It was an investment, like big time.

Eugene (1:20:06)
Absolutely, absolutely,

absolutely. there are of course stories with you know about Marina and Marjella and so on and that very unfortunate Bambi magazine story that kind of ends the book and sort of the final breakup of the six. but I want to end with a quote from Marjella

out of all people who again we have to take as a complicated character. and it's a quote that you quoted in the book from a magazine article that I think every single fashion college should have on the entrance door. I think every magazine should have it reprinted on the last page.

And this is the quote from Margella in nineteen eighty-five, right? Three years before he showed his first collection. Quote, I believe the pinnacle for any designer is the ability to unite elements from completely different worlds and turn them into something new. Something that makes people say, We've never seen anything like this before. And at the same time, you get the sense that people are thinking this is exactly what we wanted.

The paradox is that you're always working toward that moment. First you reach the press, then a limited audience, and finally the general public. And once you reach that point, it's essentially over. In that moment, when you ignite something within that wider audience, it becomes crucial to have a strong team around you. People who can pinpoint what's happening beneath the surface. Still, this will always be strange.

The thing you're striving to achieve as quickly as you can is the same thing that will ultimately kill you. Incredible.

Oscar (1:22:10)
It's it's yeah. Yeah.

Eugene (1:22:13)
Incredible

quote. So on that note, thank you, Oscar. the book is out in English for pre-orders. It will be out this fall, I believe, September, October.

Oscar (1:22:22)
No. Yeah, Winter, I don't know. I hope so, as fast as possible.

Eugene (1:22:29)
yes. And I we will I will post some quotes here as we put the podcast out from the book. again, the six

The untold story of the Antwerp Six and Oscar, thank you very much.

Oscar (1:22:48)
Eugene, it was a pleasure, really. Happy. Bye man.

Eugene (1:22:51)
Likewise, bye.

Oscar (1:22:54)
Bye bye.