While the American Revolution brought independence to much of colonial America, the indigenous peoples of America, even those like the Oneida who supported the American cause, found themselves suffering in the new Republic. Historian James Kirby Martin joins us to talk about Forgotten Allies: The Oneida Indians and the American Revolution.
While the American Revolution brought independence to much of colonial America, the indigenous peoples of America, even those like the Oneida who supported the American cause, found themselves suffering in the new Republic. Historian James Kirby Martin joins us to talk about Forgotten Allies: The Oneida Indians and the American Revolution.
WEBVTT
00:00.455 --> 00:03.678
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Revolution 250 podcast.
00:03.778 --> 00:04.619
I'm Bob Allison.
00:04.679 --> 00:06.921
I chair the Rev 250 Advisory Group.
00:06.981 --> 00:09.684
I also teach history at Suffolk University.
00:10.685 --> 00:12.587
And our guest is Kirby Martin.
00:13.588 --> 00:14.749
Welcome, Jim.
00:14.949 --> 00:15.530
Welcome back.
00:16.451 --> 00:21.015
And Professor Martin is the U Roy and Lily Kranz Cullen University
00:32.183 --> 00:37.568
to Fort Ticonderoga and Fort Plain, has written more than a dozen books
01:02.190 --> 01:02.850
for joining us.
01:04.091 --> 01:04.531
Thank you.
01:04.651 --> 01:19.598
In turn, it's very much my pleasure to be with you again and to talk a little bit more about this very important story about the United Indians and Indians more generally, at least in the northern phase of the Revolutionary War.
01:20.219 --> 01:23.800
Yes, it is really an extraordinary story.
01:23.921 --> 01:26.942
And the general impression we as historians
01:32.580 --> 01:33.341
exaggeration?
01:34.482 --> 01:39.726
Well, it probably is true when we use the word most.
01:40.607 --> 01:47.512
But I think a little bit better word, at least at the outset of the war, would be neutrality.
01:48.453 --> 01:52.056
Initially, let's be careful about what we do.
01:52.977 --> 01:54.938
And there are lots of different reasons for that.
01:55.639 --> 02:00.463
One of which is if we get too involved on one side too soon,
02:01.004 --> 02:02.886
and that side loses, we lose.
02:03.867 --> 02:13.679
So it's kind of like basic diplomacy or basic survival or whatever term you would prefer or concept you would prefer to use.
02:14.459 --> 02:20.807
And in the end, I would say most did in some way
02:22.426 --> 02:39.478
move from a state of neutrality to passive acceptance of the British side or even active acceptance of the British side, which, for instance, was very true in the Six Nations of Indians in New York, the Iroquois-speaking Indians, the Haudenosaunee people.
02:42.079 --> 02:51.606
The point about that is most of them joined the British side and the Mohawks and the Senecas were especially active, whereas
02:52.481 --> 02:56.582
the Oneidas were committed to neutrality.
02:56.822 --> 03:02.263
In fact, that is the big issue that is going on in 1775 and 1776.
03:04.184 --> 03:07.725
And I could give you this story, I think, as an example.
03:09.005 --> 03:14.887
And that is that as the war breaks out after Lexington and Concord in April of 1775,
03:18.223 --> 03:31.529
One of the powerful British leaders who has replaced Sir William Johnson, he's a nephew of Sir William Johnson, who had been the key Indian agent and influencer in the area with the Mohawks.
03:33.189 --> 03:34.950
This man's name is Guy Johnson.
03:35.590 --> 03:42.153
And as a nephew, he's sort of taken over part of the role of the important Johnson family in maintaining these relations.
03:42.573 --> 03:46.015
He will lead a group of Indians, Mohawks into Canada.
03:46.792 --> 03:57.097
And he will get them to agree to join in attacking the Americans.
03:57.877 --> 03:59.218
That's what it's all about.
03:59.338 --> 03:59.818
That's great.
03:59.858 --> 04:05.921
We're going to go back into the valley and we're going to show them a thing or two to wipe out all of this revolutionary activity.
04:07.041 --> 04:08.682
Well, they even get a war belt.
04:09.322 --> 04:09.662
All right.
04:10.363 --> 04:11.823
That is a wampum.
04:13.732 --> 04:17.556
We're going to get the Bostonians, or however you want me to say that.
04:18.617 --> 04:33.332
Anyway, this then leads to a conference with Philip Schuyler, who is the leader in the New York area, the Mohawk Valley area.
04:33.372 --> 04:35.755
He's a wealthy, wealthy individual.
04:36.665 --> 04:40.688
And he is both now a major general in the Continental Army.
04:40.708 --> 04:43.730
He will become that in June of 75.
04:44.291 --> 04:48.534
And he's going to be the chief Indian negotiator.
04:49.094 --> 04:51.156
And his job is to keep the Indians neutral.
04:52.256 --> 04:53.097
Stay out of this.
04:53.557 --> 04:55.118
This is the family quarrel.
04:55.559 --> 04:56.900
Stay out of our quarrel.
04:57.440 --> 05:02.244
Because they know if all the Indians turn against the Americans, that'll be a devastating blow to the cause.
05:03.004 --> 05:04.345
That is the patriot cause.
05:05.226 --> 05:05.446
Well...
05:06.365 --> 05:10.607
So there's a meeting, a grand meeting in August.
05:10.667 --> 05:13.708
It's going to continue into September at another location.
05:14.769 --> 05:16.910
And it's in the German Flats area.
05:18.010 --> 05:20.811
And Schuyler raises so much hackles.
05:20.871 --> 05:31.736
And by the way, the Mohawks largely did not attend because they're on the side, let's get into this and let's get rid of these Americans, that is the white settlers.
05:32.216 --> 05:34.297
And the bottom line is,
05:35.851 --> 05:51.995
Because of Schuyler's influence, there'll be a meeting of the Grand Council, that's the Satchems, the 49 chief Satchems, peace chiefs, if you want to use that term, who will be meeting Grand Council in the Syracuse area, in the Onondaga country.
05:53.536 --> 06:04.439
And they in turn vote all but unanimously to take those war bills and to give them to Schuyler and go back to neutrality.
06:05.334 --> 06:08.876
So they call out, the Indians do, of the Six Nations.
06:08.916 --> 06:12.098
They call out the Mocs and say, let's stay out of this thing.
06:12.158 --> 06:16.121
Neutrality, neutrality, neutrality is the message that they are pitching.
06:16.141 --> 06:29.729
That's the best way for us not to suffer some form of devastating loss or losses if we get engaged in this particular military context, a contest that is now taking place.
06:30.089 --> 06:31.310
So that's what's going on.
06:31.370 --> 06:32.851
Neutrality is the word of the day.
06:33.342 --> 06:34.603
But everybody has to decide.
06:34.943 --> 06:48.493
Just because you've got neutrality doesn't mean individuals can't decide whether they want to remain loyal or whether they want to join the rebel side of the contest that is going on.
06:49.593 --> 06:56.978
So on the one hand, we have the 49 sachem saying neutrality, but then individuals can decide if they want to.
06:56.998 --> 06:57.679
That's correct.
06:57.919 --> 06:58.419
They can.
06:58.980 --> 06:59.800
But they're on their own.
06:59.860 --> 07:01.742
That's one of the interesting things about the
07:02.438 --> 07:12.584
very, very, as I've said on more than one occasion, sophisticated political structure that consensus rules.
07:13.445 --> 07:21.009
But if you don't like the consensus, whatever it is, you've got two choices, shut up or move.
07:21.890 --> 07:24.071
That's basically what it boils down to.
07:24.491 --> 07:25.852
And you will find some
07:26.750 --> 07:45.514
Indians over the years who don't agree with whatever the dominant policy is coming out of all of the villages up to the grand council level, they will say, maybe I better move westward and become another or join another group or that sort of thing.
07:46.314 --> 07:49.575
So there's a certain degree of mobility among the native folks.
07:49.795 --> 07:50.515
Yes, there is.
07:50.975 --> 07:51.596
It is not
07:54.611 --> 08:01.053
it is anything but a dictatorship, where let's say you have the high, high, high, high chief.
08:01.473 --> 08:08.755
The high, high chief in the Oneida world is called the Otachede, if I even come close to saying that correctly.
08:09.395 --> 08:15.057
The Indian at that time who had that role, his name was Grasshopper, that's what we know him as.
08:16.097 --> 08:20.278
And he basically has to listen to the people
08:20.991 --> 08:24.794
It really is kind of a very democratic kind of system they have.
08:25.274 --> 08:29.637
But if you as an individual disagree, well, you got two fundamental choices.
08:30.517 --> 08:40.664
And it's very, very interesting for, as we've talked about before, these people are not savage when it comes to the way they organize themselves politically and lots of other ways.
08:41.464 --> 08:41.644
Right.
08:42.025 --> 08:48.729
So, but then the Mohawk scene, so the Mohawk then are making a choice about where they stand.
08:48.789 --> 08:50.130
Some have gone with Guy Johnson.
08:52.571 --> 08:53.512
That's true.
08:54.012 --> 08:54.492
That's true.
08:54.632 --> 09:11.363
I mean, the Mohawks, generally speaking, and by the way, great numbers of Mohawks have already moved to Canada anyway during the 18th century because they really are being the eastern door of the six nations representing the eastern side.
09:11.963 --> 09:17.927
They have had the most disruption of white settlers moving into their territory.
09:18.027 --> 09:20.509
And one of the solutions is we'll migrate elsewhere.
09:20.987 --> 09:23.348
And so there's a lot of migration into Canada.
09:24.868 --> 09:30.729
And so they have two principal castles, as they would call them.
09:30.769 --> 09:38.191
We call them villages, but mostly the Mohawks you can think of as pro-British.
09:39.071 --> 09:39.352
Okay.
09:40.372 --> 09:43.112
And Canada is really a focal point for both sides.
09:43.152 --> 09:45.213
The Americans have an invasion in
10:05.905 --> 10:10.489
From my point of view, it is a major, major impact.
10:10.629 --> 10:13.952
And let me just offer up here a little bit.
10:15.533 --> 10:26.823
The United especially, but the exception of the Mohawks and maybe some of the Seneca's out West, they are pushing and they are winning on the issue of neutrality in 1776.
10:30.836 --> 10:39.800
There is this whole invasion of Canada on the part of the rebel cause, 75, as you know, one of my subjects, Benedict Arnold's heavily involved in that.
10:40.080 --> 10:41.481
And then there's a big retreat in 1776.
10:44.062 --> 10:50.345
Arnold fighting at Falkor Island in October will help delay the British coming out of Canada with a major force in 1776.
10:51.826 --> 10:58.469
And that sets up the stage for General John Burr going to lead another major force out of Canada
10:59.701 --> 11:01.362
in the late spring, June of 1777.
11:02.443 --> 11:11.147
And just very quickly, we need to review the plan, that is the operational plan that Burgoyne had for his force.
11:11.888 --> 11:20.853
The main force is going to drop south out of, moving south out of Montreal, and we'll go up Lake Champlain.
11:20.873 --> 11:24.495
The water does flow north, so we got to go up Lake Champlain against the current.
11:25.455 --> 11:28.657
We're going to use Lake George and other routes
11:29.062 --> 11:36.524
And the goal is to get that army to Albany where another force, British force, is going to come out of New York City.
11:37.064 --> 11:42.266
And we're going to cut then the New England colonies from the others.
11:42.766 --> 11:47.507
And sort of what they're thinking is we're going to cut off the head of the rebellion because the rebellion actually began.
11:47.527 --> 11:52.328
The shooting war began in the New England area, as we all know, at Lexington and Concord.
11:52.728 --> 11:58.390
Well, anyway, the point is that's part of the plan.
11:59.296 --> 12:00.597
It's going to be a force of 8,000.
12:00.817 --> 12:15.589
The second part of the plan is to send a diversionary force under a British colonel who has breveted briefly as a general and as a brigadier.
12:16.229 --> 12:23.475
And he's going to lead a smaller force, assemble it on Lake Ontario at Fort Oswego.
12:24.696 --> 12:25.456
Very important.
12:26.197 --> 12:27.718
So he's going to go up.
12:28.713 --> 12:55.221
uh the saint lawrence river on onto the lake ontario located oswego and there he's going to gather his whole force and who's going to gather with him primarily uh mohawks and one of their leaders is this person we've talked about joseph brant and angia or however you say it very famous uh indian leader and
12:56.354 --> 13:05.956
also coming over all the way across the lake from the western end, from Fort... I forgot my fort, but anyway.
13:06.356 --> 13:16.859
But the point is that this forest will be made up largely of Seneca's with a few Cayuga's and Noanitis.
13:17.419 --> 13:18.259
All right?
13:18.739 --> 13:23.481
Now, that is the understanding, the key here.
13:24.161 --> 13:24.441
All right.
13:26.693 --> 13:29.814
This force is going to then, it's a diversionary force.
13:29.834 --> 13:31.295
They're going to drop south.
13:31.975 --> 13:33.856
And you drop south right into what?
13:33.976 --> 13:35.037
Oneida territory.
13:36.558 --> 13:42.080
You're going to drop south on the Oswego River, cross over Oneida Lake, Wood Creek.
13:42.620 --> 13:46.582
And their target initially is what is called Fort Schuyler.
13:46.662 --> 13:50.384
Actually, most of the time we know it as Fort Stanwix.
13:51.264 --> 13:54.906
But in the war, they call it Fort Schuyler out of honoring General Schuyler.
13:55.535 --> 13:58.037
Yeah, the Americans call it Fort Schuyler.
13:58.057 --> 13:59.678
The British call it Fort Stanwix.
14:00.099 --> 14:00.659
Exactly.
14:01.460 --> 14:24.437
So you've got to knock that fort out, and there is a Continental Regiment there of about 750 soldiers, the 3rd New York, and we've got to take them out because we can't have a major Continental force in our back while we're sweeping eastward down the Mohawk River to Albany where you're going to link up
14:25.255 --> 14:27.196
hopefully, with Burgoyne.
14:27.657 --> 14:34.340
Well, we all know that Burgoyne never got there because he was stopped in the Saratoga Battles in September and October of 1777.
14:35.421 --> 14:37.702
But anyway, let's trace now.
14:38.463 --> 14:39.523
Now you have a force.
14:40.444 --> 14:44.386
John Butler is one of the leaders, is an associate of the Johnsons.
14:45.267 --> 14:47.328
And you have all these Indians gathering.
14:47.348 --> 14:49.609
This force gets up to about a size of 1,800 to 2,000.
14:49.649 --> 14:50.129
And
14:54.110 --> 15:02.832
Remember, it's got to drop through our United Territory because Fort Stanwix is actually in United Territory.
15:04.132 --> 15:05.553
And then they're going to sweep east.
15:06.093 --> 15:13.034
So let's go back to the League of Peace and Power or the Confederacy.
15:13.734 --> 15:15.955
There are certain rules of the Confederacy.
15:16.675 --> 15:20.216
Rule number one, we don't kill each other or fight and kill each other.
15:21.360 --> 15:29.086
The second rule that's going to be so important here is we don't invade the territory of one of the nations without their permission.
15:29.127 --> 15:32.509
That's a matter of respect, political respect.
15:33.931 --> 15:43.839
The Unitas, knowing that this column is forming up on Lake Ontario, will send a small delegation, Grasshopper, this great chief,
15:44.970 --> 15:53.839
is involved in this and says, you don't have our permission to march your force through our territory.
15:55.040 --> 15:56.622
Well, what's the British response?
15:58.183 --> 15:58.784
Go squat.
15:59.605 --> 16:00.806
We don't need your permission.
16:01.066 --> 16:01.727
We're larger.
16:01.847 --> 16:02.808
We're more powerful.
16:02.968 --> 16:03.769
Get out of the way.
16:05.371 --> 16:05.611
Well,
16:06.175 --> 16:07.956
This sets up an obvious conflict.
16:08.117 --> 16:24.310
And this then becomes a critical difference for the Unitas moving from a position of neutrality to working with and fighting alongside the Americans in this particular story, those Continentals gathered at Fort Stanwyck.
16:24.330 --> 16:26.932
So the Unitas know they're in trouble.
16:28.353 --> 16:32.676
And so they will have to decide, what are they going to do?
16:32.897 --> 16:34.578
Stand aside and ignore.
16:35.572 --> 16:37.695
or will we join the American forces?
16:38.476 --> 16:47.508
And the answer is, in the end, as you sweep through this story, many of the United will go and gather in and around the Fort Skylar,
16:49.764 --> 17:05.989
for protection, but some of the warriors will join with 60 to 100 Oneida warriors and some Tuscarora warriors thrown in, will join with the Americans to try to ward off this British column that is coming.
17:06.769 --> 17:12.291
Now, among those individuals are Skemendoa,
17:13.078 --> 17:13.498
All right.
17:14.219 --> 17:22.303
And also Han Yeri Dockstader and his wife, Dockstader's wife, that we've called Tyona or Two Kettles.
17:22.663 --> 17:23.724
She's also involved.
17:24.024 --> 17:32.028
In fact, she'll go on a ride warning settlers farther that is down the Mohawk Valley that the British are coming.
17:32.574 --> 17:33.154
Wow.
17:33.354 --> 17:34.394
That's an amazing story.
17:34.414 --> 17:36.555
It wasn't just Paul Revere and some others.
17:37.615 --> 17:38.976
She does some of that, too.
17:39.276 --> 17:41.256
But it's in 1777.
17:41.676 --> 17:43.817
It doesn't get quite as much attention.
17:44.697 --> 17:45.837
So that's where we're at.
17:46.397 --> 17:47.218
We're at a stalemate.
17:47.318 --> 17:48.258
What's going to happen?
17:50.618 --> 17:56.660
So she and Oneida is going to warn the English Dutch settlers along the Mohawk.
17:56.960 --> 17:59.301
Yes, that's right.
17:59.742 --> 18:06.766
And she will also make contact then in that warning process with Nicholas Herkimer.
18:07.846 --> 18:09.547
You can visit the Herkimer Harm today.
18:09.587 --> 18:10.328
I'd recommend it.
18:10.388 --> 18:15.050
It's a New York State site that overlooks the Mohawk River from the southern side.
18:15.891 --> 18:20.113
And he is the militia general in that area.
18:21.174 --> 18:22.414
It's called Triant County.
18:22.434 --> 18:23.375
All right.
18:24.128 --> 18:46.601
Anyway, he now knows he has to organize the militia and he has to go up the Mohawk, march along the Mohawk and try to relieve what is happening now because the British force, Indian force coming down has now put by August 3rd and 4th, Fort Schuyler under siege.
18:47.441 --> 18:50.123
So they need to relieve that.
18:51.175 --> 18:55.078
Now, he has with him 700 to 800 militia.
18:56.279 --> 19:03.165
And part of this story, by the way, is played out in that, not one of my favorite movies, Drums Along the Mohawk.
19:03.225 --> 19:05.747
Gil Martin is part of this story and so on and so forth.
19:05.767 --> 19:06.587
The movie goes.
19:07.008 --> 19:09.830
Anyway, so he's got to get up there.
19:10.551 --> 19:12.572
And it's a forced march.
19:14.154 --> 19:19.718
And by the evening of August 5th, they have arrived there.
19:20.404 --> 19:24.905
And they're next to a small Nida village called Oriska.
19:25.985 --> 19:32.526
And running close to there is the Oriskany Creek, which will dump its waters into the Mohawk River.
19:32.866 --> 19:33.167
All right?
19:34.267 --> 19:47.169
So that evening, what is going to happen is that those 60, we don't know exactly, to 100 warriors will join Herkimer's column.
19:48.590 --> 19:48.950
All right?
19:49.510 --> 19:50.170
And somehow...
19:50.748 --> 19:53.170
Tiona's going to get back involved in this too.
19:53.210 --> 19:54.791
She comes back from her ride.
19:56.051 --> 20:15.763
Now this argument breaks out in the American force, goes back to the tension, the relations, because there had been some bad incidents before this where there's been some killing on the part of various Indian groups under Joseph Brandt and some other killing in the area in the valley.
20:17.504 --> 20:19.866
And the subordinates of
20:20.458 --> 20:23.040
Herkimer say, we don't know.
20:23.080 --> 20:24.381
We can't trust these Indians.
20:24.401 --> 20:26.002
They're saying, well, we'll go out and scout.
20:27.063 --> 20:29.085
We'll form pickets.
20:29.525 --> 20:35.930
We will go beside the column, and we'll sort of tramp through the woods and make sure the enemy isn't there going to gang up on you.
20:36.490 --> 20:38.952
And the subordinates say, you can't trust any Indians.
20:40.093 --> 20:41.154
Indians are all the same.
20:43.115 --> 20:44.857
It goes back to that stereotype.
20:45.837 --> 20:47.398
And Herkimer's saying, wait a minute.
20:47.438 --> 20:48.279
I know these people.
20:48.359 --> 20:49.300
I trust these people.
20:50.686 --> 20:52.187
So what happens?
20:53.348 --> 21:07.798
Herkimer, to quiet down those subalterns, his lieutenants and so on and so forth, captains, he says, okay, we're not going to send the Oneidas out in a scout.
21:08.599 --> 21:09.940
We're not gonna use them as pickets.
21:09.960 --> 21:14.783
We're just gonna march forward, not being aware of what's going on on our flanks.
21:16.365 --> 21:19.607
Meanwhile, because this is developing,
21:20.672 --> 21:33.680
Joseph Brandt, working with John Butler, working with various indie groups, especially Mohawks and Senecas, say this is the opportunity to set a trap.
21:33.740 --> 21:35.901
Now, they don't know there aren't going to be scouts out there.
21:36.782 --> 21:44.107
But they go ahead and send forces down, including, by the way, we haven't mentioned John Johnson, Sir William's son, known as Sir John Johnson.
21:44.467 --> 21:49.590
He has formed a loyalist regiment called the Royal Greens, and they'll eventually get in what I'm setting up as.
21:49.923 --> 21:55.988
what we call the Battle of Oriskany, one of the most important today unknown battles of the whole Revolutionary War.
21:56.968 --> 22:01.512
Herkimer goes forward on October 6th.
22:02.392 --> 22:05.575
And anyway, I'm sorry, I said October 6th.
22:05.595 --> 22:06.456
Why am I in October?
22:06.496 --> 22:07.616
I'm sorry.
22:08.237 --> 22:08.877
August 6th.
22:09.318 --> 22:12.921
Somehow I jumped back to Ticonderoga.
22:13.461 --> 22:14.342
Back to August 6th.
22:14.562 --> 22:16.143
And I meant August 5th before.
22:17.222 --> 22:20.144
And he'll move forward and he walks right into this trap.
22:20.204 --> 22:22.046
Just think of an upside down you.
22:22.626 --> 22:25.689
And you're marching your force right into the upside down you.
22:26.169 --> 22:28.251
And that's exactly what happens.
22:29.451 --> 22:45.504
And then once they get enough of that force at this Oriskany battlefield, the territory goes down through a swampy area and then back up on what is a military road leading up six miles away to Fort Schuyler.
22:46.625 --> 22:46.985
Once they
22:48.068 --> 22:52.489
Once they enter that ravine, the attack occurs.
22:53.629 --> 22:54.750
Let me summarize it.
22:55.550 --> 23:03.031
It's going to go on, on and off, two phases, thunderstorms in between, overall about four hours of killing.
23:04.272 --> 23:13.634
And now we have a situation where Herkimer is able to get some of his column, but probably he lost 60% in casualties or more.
23:14.656 --> 23:18.297
in this battle, very high by the standards of warfare in the 18th century.
23:19.117 --> 23:34.463
Meanwhile, what we also know is that up to 60 of the Indians, mainly Senecas, but some Mohawks, were also seriously wounded and or killed in this battle.
23:34.523 --> 23:40.645
This is a critical point in Native American history in the New York area, a critical point within the Six Nations.
23:41.025 --> 23:41.905
Go back to the rules.
23:42.310 --> 23:43.931
Number one, we don't kill each other.
23:44.071 --> 23:45.512
We don't fight against each other.
23:45.793 --> 23:47.134
What did they do at Oriskany?
23:47.574 --> 23:49.916
They fought against each other and they killed each other.
23:51.737 --> 24:03.425
That is a critical moment in the story of the six nations because they now have literally weakened themselves because they're doing what?
24:04.226 --> 24:06.207
They're fighting among themselves.
24:06.868 --> 24:11.271
And that's just like, I hate to say this, the beginning of the end
24:11.775 --> 24:19.181
of the strength that the Confederacy had because it wouldn't fight and kill among itself.
24:19.221 --> 24:19.942
That's the story.
24:19.962 --> 24:20.842
It's amazing.
24:21.042 --> 24:31.010
We're talking with James Kirby Martin, author of many books, among them, Forgotten Allies, about the Oneida contribution to the American Revolution.
24:31.931 --> 24:32.652
And this
24:44.538 --> 24:57.961
And so is there recognition then on part of the Americans of A, the importance of the Oneida and then B, the devastating impact this has had on the Iroquois Confederation?
25:00.182 --> 25:10.485
Well, there are some very nice words that are spoken by certain Americans, that is by the representing the white settlers.
25:11.785 --> 25:11.885
And
25:13.368 --> 25:19.390
I could give you a couple of examples, but I want to also mention a couple of other incidents, maybe before I gave you those examples.
25:20.891 --> 25:26.032
And that is now the Oneidas are fully committed to fighting on the American side.
25:26.352 --> 25:28.853
They have become what we call the good and faithful allies.
25:28.913 --> 25:34.615
That's where the title Forgotten Allies comes from, because they will be forgotten.
25:36.076 --> 25:36.516
And we got
25:37.171 --> 25:45.415
We've talked about this a little bit at the beginning about historical amnesia in regard to Indian or Native American or indigenous history, whatever you want to call it.
25:46.616 --> 25:48.577
And they will be forgotten.
25:48.737 --> 25:51.919
I'll talk a little bit about that in just a few minutes.
25:51.999 --> 25:55.621
But anyway, the Oneidas will continue.
25:55.661 --> 25:57.261
I could give you lots of examples.
25:57.341 --> 26:05.886
They will send representatives and they will help, especially between the first and the second Saratoga battles between September 7th
26:06.705 --> 26:07.005
15th.
26:07.025 --> 26:08.545
I'm remembering my dates correctly.
26:08.585 --> 26:16.587
I think I've already goofed up the dates with your risk any battle, but I think it's October 7th.
26:16.667 --> 26:22.228
But anyway, the point is they will be engaged in scouting.
26:22.828 --> 26:31.870
They will be engaged and they will go out and they'll trap British soldiers and they'll bring them back and interrogate them and frighten them and all these sorts of things.
26:31.950 --> 26:32.550
They're not allowed.
26:32.590 --> 26:36.151
The rules are against scalping or anything like that, but they're helping
26:36.755 --> 26:47.621
the intelligence to help, at this point, General Horatio Gates and then Benedict Arnold set the winning stage for that particular battle.
26:48.302 --> 27:00.909
They'll go on and actually, with some influence of the Marquis de Lafayette, who will visit them, they will be invited in the late winter, early spring of 1778 to go to Valley Forge.
27:05.220 --> 27:11.643
and perhaps do the same kind of work, that is scouting, keep an eye on the British in Philadelphia, all that sort of thing.
27:12.603 --> 27:31.031
And so a number of them will go, and they will be engaged in the battle in mid-May, around May 20th, as I remember, 1778, called the Battle of Barren Hill, because Washington sends out Lafayette with a rather large force, about 2,000, to sweep
27:33.678 --> 28:02.815
south eastward across the school kill river and to sort of figure out what the british were up to in philadelphia let's test them a little what we call a reconnaissance and force the british were on to it and they will move out of philadelphia in mass and they actually almost catch this force which would have led to some sort of annihilation or major battle the battle of baron hill turned out to be a minor battle but as
28:03.675 --> 28:12.017
As Lafayette retreated, he will leave behind some of the United Scouts.
28:13.638 --> 28:19.699
And they will then challenge one of the British forces moving forward, delay, delay, delay, delay, delay.
28:20.320 --> 28:29.802
And six of them will die in this battle defending the Americans that need to retreat and get out of all the trouble they're into.
28:30.262 --> 28:32.223
Those Indians are buried in a small church.
28:33.068 --> 28:34.349
in the Barren Hill area.
28:34.909 --> 28:41.873
One of the famous ones there is a man by the name of Thomas Senevas, who was a sachem, both a peace chief and a warrior.
28:42.734 --> 28:54.921
And anyway, it's a very... Jim, you also told a story about Senevas before, as he was finding out about Burgoyne's plan, concealing himself.
28:55.121 --> 28:55.741
That's right.
28:55.761 --> 28:58.082
That's a very important story in and of itself.
28:59.103 --> 28:59.203
And
28:59.935 --> 29:10.742
That is something he did as part of a scouting party to help inform Schuyler ahead of the whole launching of the Berkline campaign.
29:10.762 --> 29:11.923
What were they really up to?
29:12.463 --> 29:16.266
And he's very heavily involved in that, showed tremendous preference.
29:17.106 --> 29:17.366
Yeah.
29:17.907 --> 29:27.133
Well, he actually goes north with a small column, a scouting party, and they will make contact with the group,
29:30.653 --> 29:31.453
involving the St.
29:31.513 --> 29:32.735
Leger expedition.
29:34.656 --> 29:38.820
And he'll go into the village himself and sort of walk around.
29:39.240 --> 29:43.324
These troops are gathering and Indians and so on and so forth.
29:44.105 --> 30:00.737
And he climbs up in the rafters of the building and he's listening to the British below, including Sir John Johnson and others, discuss the plan about how we're going to proceed through the United Territory and what the overall operational strategy and plan is.
30:01.218 --> 30:02.999
And he comes back and he's one of them.
30:03.019 --> 30:04.340
He reports all of that stuff.
30:04.360 --> 30:13.107
This was an incredibly brave man who gave his life in defense of the American or the rebel cause.
30:14.088 --> 30:40.768
so i think it's an interesting story in and of itself he is he is a major character uh in the story uh and dies tragically in the end yeah and there is enough more than enough material here to make a better movie than drums along yes well there is a story about that we did come close to making a movie based on the book and the things that we've been talking about in the year 2011.
30:42.918 --> 30:44.239
My time has passed since then.
30:44.939 --> 30:47.842
But the point is all sorts of things went wrong.
30:47.902 --> 30:49.723
I won't go into those details.
30:50.463 --> 30:54.426
And we had to cancel at the last minute.
30:54.486 --> 30:56.928
However, there's a new project.
30:57.549 --> 30:59.490
Very good.
30:59.950 --> 31:07.356
I've been talking with some people about trying to do some sort of a mini series that would tell virtually the same story.
31:07.696 --> 31:09.537
You know, the whole thing with now Hollywood has changed.
31:09.557 --> 31:11.298
We're not all rushing off to the theater.
31:11.759 --> 31:12.059
Right.
31:12.623 --> 31:13.623
and going to the movies.
31:14.263 --> 31:18.324
We've gotten all these streaming services have come into existence.
31:18.764 --> 31:20.705
They're looking for material.
31:21.365 --> 31:23.985
Many series have, many of them have been very successful.
31:24.465 --> 31:31.187
And so it's a whole new world that wasn't there 10 or 15 years ago that we may be able to tap into.
31:31.527 --> 31:33.387
Put a pitch in for this activity.
31:33.987 --> 31:34.347
Okay.
31:34.627 --> 31:35.268
That is great.
31:35.408 --> 31:37.108
I will look forward
31:43.319 --> 31:51.443
But we're talking with James Kirby Martin, who's actually, you've written enough material for lots of stories.
31:51.463 --> 31:54.104
You did the film about Benedict Arnold a year or two ago.
31:54.124 --> 31:54.964
Yes, we did.
31:54.984 --> 31:59.486
And that was a labor of love, I guess I could call it.
32:01.987 --> 32:08.010
And we started that project in late 2001.
32:11.596 --> 32:16.298
It finally was released and does appear on several streaming services.
32:17.679 --> 32:20.020
Some of the very good ones, I might add, are well-known ones.
32:21.681 --> 32:22.481
And you can watch it.
32:22.942 --> 32:25.623
You can watch it on, what is it called?
32:25.643 --> 32:27.924
The Amazon Prime Network.
32:28.184 --> 32:28.745
Available.
32:29.225 --> 32:30.786
You can buy it or you can watch it.
32:30.826 --> 32:31.546
I think it's free.
32:31.906 --> 32:34.667
And there are others like that, other streaming services out there.
32:35.388 --> 32:38.469
But it took only from 2001...
32:40.649 --> 32:48.033
to 2021 when we finally had a premiere for the movie.
32:48.133 --> 32:50.855
It's still 20 years in the making.
32:51.495 --> 32:53.797
And there were up years and there were down years.
32:53.897 --> 32:55.738
And there were years when nothing was done.
32:55.838 --> 32:59.620
And it just was a saga that I could go into.
32:59.660 --> 33:00.280
But it's done.
33:00.300 --> 33:03.462
And it's actually reviewed, I think, very well.
33:04.103 --> 33:06.544
It's a bit of a different look at Arnold where we say,
33:07.796 --> 33:14.237
was he perhaps justified in some of the decisions that he made, given what he had given to the cause and the treatment that he was getting.
33:14.257 --> 33:16.398
Right.
33:16.458 --> 33:18.938
We should get back to the Oneida though.
33:19.098 --> 33:20.979
Oh, absolutely.
33:20.999 --> 33:22.959
So what are the consequences for that?
33:25.140 --> 33:33.022
Well, the consequences are not good all the way around, not even for the Oneidas in the end.
33:34.022 --> 33:34.222
And the,
33:35.799 --> 33:42.903
The best way for me to summarize this would be go to the treaty settlements that come out of the Revolutionary War.
33:43.284 --> 33:53.210
Though the Unitas continue on fighting for the Americans, their villages are devastated and run over by British and Joseph Brandt, on and on and on.
33:53.690 --> 33:58.053
But let's go to this important peace settlement that's going to be worked out.
33:58.133 --> 34:04.837
First of all, the British in 1775 and before had promised literally
34:05.535 --> 34:08.637
If you fight with us, you will get your territory back.
34:09.478 --> 34:13.420
It goes back to the proclamation of 1763, that kind of thinking.
34:14.901 --> 34:21.445
Well, in 1783, if you look up the Peace of Paris, find me something about what the British did for the Indians.
34:21.645 --> 34:22.546
It is silent.
34:23.606 --> 34:24.907
They abandoned them.
34:25.888 --> 34:28.369
Good, bad, or indifferent, they were abandoned.
34:29.410 --> 34:32.332
That means they're now turned over to the British
34:33.129 --> 34:58.401
winning force the uh american rebels and there will be to be two treaties in 1784 both of them at fort skylar now morphing back to fort stanwix one is with the state of new york the other is with the federal government in the state treaty
34:59.955 --> 35:03.636
And in the national treaty, the Oneidas are complimented, exonerated.
35:03.916 --> 35:05.076
You fought on our side.
35:05.457 --> 35:06.437
We appreciate it.
35:06.517 --> 35:09.778
I'm going to read a couple of key quotes in a moment on that one.
35:10.798 --> 35:15.799
But those other four, now the Tuscaroras were with the Oneidas.
35:15.859 --> 35:21.401
That is the Senecas, the Cayugas going west to east, the Onondagas.
35:22.781 --> 35:26.422
and the Mohawks all have to make land cessions.
35:27.502 --> 35:30.003
Your punishment is we're going to take more of your land.
35:30.063 --> 35:32.603
And that process is obviously going to continue.
35:33.084 --> 35:34.804
The United is no problem.
35:34.844 --> 35:36.144
You're a good and faithful allies.
35:36.184 --> 35:37.465
Whoa, wait a minute here.
35:37.925 --> 35:38.825
There are two treaties in 1784.
35:39.185 --> 35:41.245
The United is a problem.
35:41.426 --> 35:42.786
But then the thought strikes.
35:43.586 --> 35:46.287
They have something like 6 million acres.
35:46.327 --> 35:49.727
And at this point, they're not even quite a thousand people.
35:50.088 --> 35:51.828
You don't need all that land, right?
35:53.140 --> 36:04.007
Even though you're a good and faithful ally, 1785, Governor George Clinton comes out and begins to negotiate with various Oneida leaders and said, can we make a deal here?
36:05.227 --> 36:09.970
We sort of work something out so we could rent or maybe buy some of your land.
36:09.990 --> 36:13.152
What I'm pointing to is that's the beginning of the process.
36:14.273 --> 36:16.074
How does that end up for the Oneidas?
36:17.711 --> 36:19.752
Very simply, I'd do it very quickly.
36:20.393 --> 36:28.377
Six million acres at the time of the revolution that is defined as their territory within the structure of the six nations.
36:29.398 --> 36:33.060
And the area would then be called Iroquoia.
36:34.921 --> 36:42.806
In 1900, by the census of 1900, the United States could claim 35 acres as their territory.
36:44.167 --> 36:44.847
What happened?
36:45.668 --> 36:47.269
Well, we talk about dispersal.
36:48.220 --> 36:49.540
And that's really what happened.
36:50.280 --> 36:58.102
In the 19th century, as in the early years, some of the Oneidas will actually move to Ontario province.
36:58.962 --> 37:07.703
Some will even league up with their traditional enemy, Joseph Grant, who was also organizing Indians and new settlements in Ontario province.
37:08.323 --> 37:16.885
Many more Oneidas will actually go all the way to the area of Green Bay, Wisconsin, where they have a very major presence today.
37:17.844 --> 37:20.946
That is the same place where the football team comes from.
37:21.046 --> 37:25.630
All around that area now was given as Oneida territory.
37:25.690 --> 37:28.892
The Oneidas are still very prominent in that area, so they disperse.
37:29.432 --> 37:41.081
The core group, the New York Oneidas, that is the group that specifically I've worked with over the years, the actual New York Oneida Nation, and is recognized as such today.
37:42.962 --> 37:44.703
That is a smaller group.
37:45.124 --> 37:46.865
It's tough to give you an exact number.
37:47.801 --> 37:51.622
But their numbers slowly declined, then began to build back up.
37:52.082 --> 38:03.424
Maybe 1,000 or more represent the United Nation in New York today, and have come back amazingly so, and are very, very prosperous people.
38:04.304 --> 38:07.225
But anyway, that's the overview.
38:08.105 --> 38:09.005
They lost it all.
38:09.605 --> 38:13.026
Basically, now they have, as I would say,
38:13.905 --> 38:22.473
by getting involved in the gaming business, in the hotel business, in the golf business, in the gas business, you name it, they are into it.
38:23.314 --> 38:29.399
They have become, and become again, a very prosperous people as they were before.
38:29.419 --> 38:39.909
It's a different kind of prosperity than was before, but overall the nation, I would put it in the major prospering category.
38:40.592 --> 39:05.557
so that's kind of the story but but let me tell you at the time i have to i have to uh if you i do have to put on my reading glasses but i want to read you a couple of contemporary quotes excuse me with my old horn rims here now this quote about the united is in their service they weren't saying this about the others obviously no uh in the nations
39:06.590 --> 39:19.939
This is a pledge by the delegates of the Continental Congress to the United Indian Nation, December 3rd, 1777, thanking them obviously for their service at Oriskany and for their service at Saratoga.
39:21.020 --> 39:21.420
Here we go.
39:21.801 --> 39:24.843
Quote, we have experienced your love, strong as the oak.
39:25.419 --> 39:26.279
and your fidelity.
39:26.399 --> 39:27.620
Unchangeable is truth.
39:28.300 --> 39:33.402
While the sun and moon continue to give light to the world, we shall love and respect you.
39:34.403 --> 39:43.566
As our trusted friends, we shall protect you and shall at all times consider your welfare as our own.
39:44.807 --> 39:45.947
Did it turn out that way?
39:48.048 --> 39:48.808
Quote number two.
39:49.829 --> 39:51.209
This is from Philip Schuyler.
39:52.430 --> 39:52.730
To the
39:53.226 --> 40:01.630
Oneida Indians, he's a head Indian commissioner from the Continental Congress in the area, as well as being a major general, May 11, 1778.
40:03.931 --> 40:09.794
Accept my best thanks for your friendly care and attention to the interests of the United States.
40:10.634 --> 40:17.397
I've often told you that the conduct which you have held would always entitle you to our love and esteem.
40:18.652 --> 40:25.616
Yet I repeat with pleasure and sooner should a fond mother forget her only son, then we shall forget you.
40:27.037 --> 40:27.738
Right?
40:28.478 --> 40:29.058
Two quotes.
40:29.679 --> 40:31.560
Forever we're going to remember you.
40:32.721 --> 40:34.782
Why do we call them forgotten allies?
40:35.442 --> 40:39.865
So I want to give you this particular story.
40:41.586 --> 40:47.029
The General Lafayette, Marquis de Lafayette, did develop working relations with the United States.
40:47.049 --> 40:47.790
He was actually...
40:48.482 --> 40:56.346
at the New York conference in 1784, that is the Fort Stanwix treaty conference with the state of New York.
40:56.466 --> 40:59.467
And he said to the Indians, you made the mistake.
40:59.827 --> 41:00.688
You're gonna pay.
41:00.928 --> 41:03.349
You should have maintained your neutrality.
41:03.669 --> 41:09.172
By getting involved, you have lost, as what often happens in war.
41:09.852 --> 41:13.094
He's complimenting the Unitas at the same time.
41:14.214 --> 41:15.495
Then let's jump way ahead.
41:16.756 --> 41:17.556
We get to the year,
41:18.677 --> 41:29.665
1824 and Lafayette is invited back to America to help celebrate what would be the 50th anniversary of the country.
41:30.505 --> 41:34.588
And that would be in 17, I mean, 20, 25 and 20.
41:34.728 --> 41:40.472
It has to be, it has to be somewhere.
41:42.594 --> 41:44.535
The centuries all blend together.
41:44.815 --> 41:45.075
Right.
41:45.135 --> 41:45.856
They just,
41:46.530 --> 42:09.035
dates apparently are not my thing even though I'm a historian but the the uh the point is it is it is actually 1825 1826 so he comes back in 1824 this grand tour of all 22 states yeah and he's going to June of 1825 he ends up in Utica New York which is growing up around the Erie Canal
42:10.434 --> 42:13.056
The Anaites have been totally shoved aside.
42:13.636 --> 42:16.779
The settlers no longer really know their history, know anything about them.
42:16.839 --> 42:21.323
Lafayette arrives on this particular day, and he said, where are my friends, the Anaites?
42:22.164 --> 42:23.785
And the local officials look at him.
42:24.005 --> 42:25.407
Well, what are you talking about?
42:26.487 --> 42:27.448
But then he spies.
42:27.488 --> 42:28.509
There's a small group.
42:28.609 --> 42:34.895
One of them is Cornelius, the son of Hanieri, and two Kettles, the Dockstaders.
42:35.715 --> 42:37.477
And he's there now as an old man.
42:39.409 --> 42:41.851
And Lafayette says, stop everything.
42:41.951 --> 42:45.294
I'm going to meet with my former colleagues and allies.
42:45.374 --> 42:47.636
And he will go meet with a small group of Indians.
42:48.957 --> 42:51.119
The settlers there, you know, they don't know what he's doing.
42:51.139 --> 42:52.179
What's the matter with this guy?
42:52.199 --> 42:53.941
Doesn't he know who the important people are?
42:54.361 --> 42:55.542
You know, we're all veterans.
42:55.902 --> 42:59.165
I lost my leg at, you know, wherever, that kind of thing.
42:59.345 --> 43:08.873
And the point is, he still remembered and he still recognized, even though the community that was built on top of the United Nations
43:09.346 --> 43:10.807
There's no recollection.
43:11.428 --> 43:23.737
So one of the things that I would say that we try to do as historians is we try to recreate or reformulate, reorganize whatever the past.
43:24.638 --> 43:35.847
And so what is really good, I think as a historian, is that now we are in, and we have been actually now for several years, maybe almost 50 years, I could say,
43:36.519 --> 43:42.060
beginning to recognize all those people that weren't part of this traditional story as it was told.
43:43.101 --> 43:45.561
And that is a very, very important development.
43:46.321 --> 43:48.622
In some cases, maybe we've gone to extreme.
43:49.822 --> 43:51.523
We've lost the central focus.
43:51.623 --> 43:57.644
We've sort of, I don't know what the right word is to describe it, but we sort of balkanized ourselves.
43:58.644 --> 44:04.826
So we get this group here and this group there and this group over there, and we're not coming back together as a people.
44:05.646 --> 44:11.110
But you know, there was a major program in the 1990s under the Clinton administration that was called Coming Together.
44:11.670 --> 44:26.641
And that was to bring communities of diverse people together to try to live peacefully, harmoniously, and with great prosperity as the all-inclusive American people.
44:28.702 --> 44:28.802
Great.
44:28.822 --> 44:29.943
Well, thank you very much.
44:29.963 --> 44:35.287
We've been talking with James Kirby Martin, whose active work as an historian has made it
44:36.288 --> 44:39.190
possible for us to reimagine and to come together.
44:39.250 --> 44:46.974
So I want to thank you for the work you've done, and thank you for this wonderful conversation about the role of the Oneida in the American Revolution.
44:47.655 --> 44:47.995
Thank you.
44:48.095 --> 44:50.596
It was my pleasure, even though I screwed up a few dates.
44:51.237 --> 44:52.297
Well, that's okay.
44:52.337 --> 44:53.278
You correct that.
44:53.418 --> 44:59.882
I don't know how you dumped in the right dates, but anyway, try to stay on the big picture.
45:00.382 --> 45:00.962
That's right.
45:00.982 --> 45:01.543
This is great.
45:02.143 --> 45:05.685
And I want to thank all of our listeners and Jonathan Lane, our producer, and I'm
45:11.397 --> 45:39.635
and Montgomery both in the state of New York and Pattaya and Chonburi and Thailand and all places in between and if you are listening from one of these places send Jonathan Lane an email jlane at Revolution 250.org and they'll send you some of our Revolution 250 refrigerator magnets with quotes from the community correspondence from the towns of Massachusetts and so as we continue to remember the events of the revolution and think about ways to commemorate and