WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone,
 
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 and welcome to the
 
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 Revolution Two-Fifty podcast.
 
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 I am Bob Allison.
 
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 I chair the Revolution
 
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 Two-Fifty Advisory Group.
 
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 We are a consortium of
 
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 seventy-five organizations
 
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 in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the
 
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 beginnings of American independence.
 
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 And we have with us today a
 
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 very special guest,
 
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 Mr. Frederick Douglass.
 
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 Mr. Douglass, welcome.
 
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 Good afternoon to you.
 
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 Well, I have to check my time here.
 
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 Now I believe we're in the
 
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 year of our Lord,
 
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 at two thousand and twenty-four,
 
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 if you can believe that.
 
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 We are, yes.
 
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 It is still morning.
 
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 And we will imagine it's the
 
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 year eighteen fifty-two,
 
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 and you have just delivered
 
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 a powerful speech about the
 
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 meaning of the fourth of July.
 
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 Can we talk a little bit
 
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 about what to the American
 
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 slave is the fourth of July?
 
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 Yes, well,
 
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 you might understand that the
 
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 circumstances surrounding
 
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 I mean,
 
 00:01:00.405 --> 00:01:02.448
 giving that speech was that the
 
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 Rochester Anti-Slavery Sowing Society,
 
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 the Women Anti-Slavery Sowing Society,
 
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 invited me to do that
 
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 speech in downtown Rochester.
 
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 And initially, I had declined the offer.
 
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 I basically said to my daughter,
 
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 who brought me the telegram,
 
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 what to the slave is the Fourth of July.
 
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 But of course,
 
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 I had been thinking about
 
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 this and contemplating this
 
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 over the years as I had, of course,
 
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 initially been recruited by
 
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 William Ward Garrison and
 
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 the Garrisonians.
 
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 And their idea of the
 
 00:01:48.787 --> 00:01:49.989
 Constitution was that it
 
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 was a flawed document that
 
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 should be torn up and rewritten,
 
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 that they were non-voters.
 
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 And so when I started out on
 
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 the Hundred Convention
 
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 speaking tour with the Garrisonians,
 
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 they kept me in somewhat of a box,
 
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 only telling my story of my
 
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 time in bondage and my
 
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 career in bondage and my escape.
 
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 But I soon got tired of that
 
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 and wanted to explore this
 
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 idea of the abolition of slavery.
 
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 And so it was finally that I was able to
 
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 I started reading the
 
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 Constitution for myself,
 
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 to read what the founding
 
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 fathers said as far as the
 
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 founding of the country,
 
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 that I came to my own
 
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 conclusion that the
 
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 Constitution is a living
 
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 idea and that it is a remedy.
 
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 It is not a slavery document.
 
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 It is an anti-slavery document.
 
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 And so that's why I finally
 
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 went on the fifth of July.
 
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 Yes.
 
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 Of eighteen fifty two to
 
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 deliver the speech.
 
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 What to the American slave
 
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 is the Fourth of July.
 
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 And the speech does cover
 
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 the achievements of the founders,
 
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 but then also the flaws.
 
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 Yes.
 
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 Well,
 
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 What I said in the speech,
 
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 in the beginning of the speech,
 
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 I'm giving much credit to
 
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 the founding fathers of the country.
 
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 I say they were brave men.
 
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 They were peaceful men.
 
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 They chose revolution rather
 
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 than peaceful submission to bondage.
 
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 And so they have done their work,
 
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 and they did much of it well.
 
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 But we now receive our own work.
 
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 And I quoted Sidney Smith.
 
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 I said,
 
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 men seldom eulogize the fame and
 
 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:54.140
 fortune of their forefathers,
 
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 except to exclude some
 
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 folly or wickedness of their own.
 
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 And so as I turned the
 
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 speech to the current
 
 00:04:04.689 --> 00:04:06.270
 situation of eighteen fifty
 
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 two and and the abolition of slavery,
 
 00:04:09.653 --> 00:04:11.355
 what I was saying to America.
 
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 is that they were not living
 
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 up to the Constitution and
 
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 the ideals of the Constitution.
 
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 I was not as much
 
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 criticizing what the
 
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 founding fathers had laid down,
 
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 but that those of us during
 
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 that time were just resting
 
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 on what they had done,
 
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 what our founding fathers had done,
 
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 and not contributing
 
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 anything to our democracy
 
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 to make it a more perfect union.
 
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 It's an interesting,
 
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 very interesting and
 
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 provocative idea that the
 
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 fault was not with the founders,
 
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 but with us.
 
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 Yes, yes.
 
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 There was so much hypocrisy
 
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 in Americans at that time
 
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 that they would have this
 
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 idea that all men are created equal,
 
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 yet and still,
 
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 they would have men and women in bondage.
 
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 That they would...
 
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 have a slave on Sunday in
 
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 church praying in a pious
 
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 manner and then on Monday whip a slave.
 
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 And so these contradictions
 
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 in what our preamble said
 
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 about the idea of America
 
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 and what was actually being
 
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 lived was the stark
 
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 contrast that I was bringing to America.
 
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 And then of course another
 
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 event happening in the
 
 00:05:38.672 --> 00:05:39.851
 eighteen fifties was the
 
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 publication of the writings
 
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 of James Madison, Thomas Jefferson,
 
 00:05:44.093 --> 00:05:45.154
 George Washington,
 
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 in which people could read
 
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 what they were saying
 
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 privately about the
 
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 institution of slavery at
 
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 the same time as you had a
 
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 Supreme Court saying that
 
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 the it was a fixed opinion
 
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 about racial inequality.
 
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 And they were grappling with
 
 00:06:00.502 --> 00:06:02.502
 that and recognizing that
 
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 recognizing their own hypocrisy.
 
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 Yes.
 
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 As a matter of fact,
 
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 even just before my speech on that,
 
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 of course,
 
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 reading all the founding
 
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 documents of the founding
 
 00:06:17.211 --> 00:06:20.291
 fathers and what our president,
 
 00:06:20.552 --> 00:06:21.773
 George Washington,
 
 00:06:22.374 --> 00:06:24.535
 the example he set after
 
 00:06:24.574 --> 00:06:26.755
 two terms as president to
 
 00:06:27.276 --> 00:06:30.358
 step down and release his vast power,
 
 00:06:32.139 --> 00:06:33.180
 release that back to the
 
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 civilian government,
 
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 It was all a contrast,
 
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 especially the contrast of Judge Taney,
 
 00:06:39.805 --> 00:06:42.107
 who denied the rights of
 
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 Dred Scott in his decision.
 
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 And so all of these things
 
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 were infuriating me, and for that matter,
 
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 infuriating the country,
 
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 and were leading us to what, of course,
 
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 contrary to what Mr. Garrison was saying,
 
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 that we would be able to
 
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 change the country by mere
 
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 moral assuages.
 
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 that we would end up in a civil war.
 
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 And we did end up in a civil war.
 
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 And your sons fought in the war.
 
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 And you met with President Lincoln.
 
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 And I don't think there's
 
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 any two figures at the time
 
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 who were more versed in
 
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 what the founders thought
 
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 than you and President Lincoln.
 
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 Yes, of course.
 
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 I think if you really wanted to understand
 
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 my evolving relationship
 
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 with President Lincoln,
 
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 you would have to go to my
 
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 speech from a team of
 
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 seventy five when we
 
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 erected the Emancipation Monument.
 
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 Yes.
 
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 In Washington, D.C.,
 
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 when I when I was there and
 
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 I and I spoke on the memory
 
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 of Abraham Lincoln,
 
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 which I was saying then
 
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 that he was not our first choice,
 
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 that he was.
 
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 As a matter of fact,
 
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 He was predominantly the
 
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 white man's president,
 
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 entirely devoted to the
 
 00:08:06.146 --> 00:08:07.706
 welfare of white men.
 
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 You might understand that we
 
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 were the white people of
 
 00:08:13.547 --> 00:08:14.507
 the United States were the
 
 00:08:14.567 --> 00:08:16.007
 children of Abraham Lincoln.
 
 00:08:16.387 --> 00:08:18.848
 We colored people were his stepchildren,
 
 00:08:19.668 --> 00:08:21.088
 children by adoption,
 
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 children by the forces of
 
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 circumstance and necessity.
 
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 But what we were able to do
 
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 and what I was able to do by reading
 
 00:08:31.148 --> 00:08:32.469
 the speeches of Abraham
 
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 Lincoln and following his
 
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 ideas on the westward
 
 00:08:37.932 --> 00:08:42.235
 expansion of slavery and to
 
 00:08:42.316 --> 00:08:44.158
 lobby Abraham Lincoln
 
 00:08:44.937 --> 00:08:46.519
 during the Civil War to add
 
 00:08:46.558 --> 00:08:48.080
 black soldiers to the fight.
 
 00:08:49.642 --> 00:08:51.263
 One of the reasons that one of the,
 
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 one of the,
 
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 things that we brought to
 
 00:08:54.909 --> 00:08:57.091
 Mr. Lincoln was the idea
 
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 set by the founding fathers
 
 00:08:58.591 --> 00:09:00.312
 that we could have black
 
 00:09:00.352 --> 00:09:03.134
 men fighting for the union.
 
 00:09:03.193 --> 00:09:03.894
 If we fought,
 
 00:09:04.654 --> 00:09:06.096
 if the black men of
 
 00:09:06.155 --> 00:09:09.116
 Massachusetts fought in the
 
 00:09:09.136 --> 00:09:10.238
 Revolutionary War,
 
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 if we fought alongside Washington,
 
 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:15.160
 then why would it be not
 
 00:09:15.201 --> 00:09:17.542
 good enough to fight alongside McClellan?
 
 00:09:19.543 --> 00:09:21.464
 And so, of course, I always describe
 
 00:09:21.923 --> 00:09:24.047
 by Mr. Lincoln as an honest boatman.
 
 00:09:24.086 --> 00:09:26.471
 And he was a prudent thinker
 
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 and finally saw the light.
 
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 Yes, you did.
 
 00:09:33.802 --> 00:09:33.962
 Now,
 
 00:09:34.062 --> 00:09:37.423
 speaking of Washington's farewell in
 
 00:09:37.583 --> 00:09:38.945
 eighteen seventy four,
 
 00:09:39.164 --> 00:09:41.306
 you visited Annapolis for a
 
 00:09:41.826 --> 00:09:43.486
 recreation of that dramatic
 
 00:09:43.506 --> 00:09:44.706
 scene when Washington
 
 00:09:45.087 --> 00:09:46.607
 resigned his commission as
 
 00:09:46.648 --> 00:09:48.328
 the commander of the Continental Army.
 
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 So can you tell us a bit
 
 00:09:49.730 --> 00:09:51.149
 about that and what impact
 
 00:09:51.190 --> 00:09:52.350
 that had on your thinking
 
 00:09:52.510 --> 00:09:54.392
 as reading Washington's
 
 00:09:54.831 --> 00:09:57.092
 speech to the Congress of
 
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 in seventeen eighty three?
 
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 Yes, well,
 
 00:10:03.232 --> 00:10:05.374
 the speech that I quoted or I
 
 00:10:05.413 --> 00:10:07.394
 recited there at the
 
 00:10:07.453 --> 00:10:08.315
 Capitol building in
 
 00:10:08.375 --> 00:10:11.475
 Annapolis was really a
 
 00:10:11.596 --> 00:10:13.297
 short version of his
 
 00:10:13.336 --> 00:10:15.277
 resignation speech that he
 
 00:10:15.376 --> 00:10:17.038
 read to the Congress there.
 
 00:10:17.717 --> 00:10:19.999
 But I also read the longer
 
 00:10:20.019 --> 00:10:22.139
 version of his resignation
 
 00:10:22.179 --> 00:10:23.139
 speech in which he went
 
 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.801
 into some great length to
 
 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:27.481
 describe and give a warning
 
 00:10:28.048 --> 00:10:31.230
 to Americans, to America as we go forward,
 
 00:10:31.750 --> 00:10:33.011
 of the factions that might
 
 00:10:33.032 --> 00:10:35.352
 be created that would divide us,
 
 00:10:36.033 --> 00:10:39.235
 east against west, north against south,
 
 00:10:39.514 --> 00:10:44.677
 that there would be a men
 
 00:10:45.138 --> 00:10:45.957
 who would come into the
 
 00:10:46.018 --> 00:10:48.038
 government to interrupt the
 
 00:10:48.099 --> 00:10:49.740
 quiet operation of the
 
 00:10:49.779 --> 00:10:50.660
 federal government.
 
 00:10:51.860 --> 00:10:53.841
 And so I was quoting
 
 00:10:55.509 --> 00:10:56.490
 not only Lincoln,
 
 00:10:56.570 --> 00:10:58.591
 but Washington throughout, I mean,
 
 00:10:58.711 --> 00:11:00.991
 in the speech that I gave in, in, in, in,
 
 00:11:01.052 --> 00:11:03.533
 in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in,
 
 00:11:03.552 --> 00:11:05.695
 in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in,
 
 00:11:05.794 --> 00:11:07.515
 in, in, in, in, in,
 
 00:11:25.972 --> 00:11:26.312
 Yes.
 
 00:11:27.153 --> 00:11:28.354
 And you spoke here,
 
 00:11:28.394 --> 00:11:29.455
 you've spoken in Boston
 
 00:11:29.495 --> 00:11:31.015
 many times and at our music
 
 00:11:31.056 --> 00:11:32.615
 hall in eighteen sixty,
 
 00:11:32.635 --> 00:11:34.317
 you said that liberty is
 
 00:11:34.417 --> 00:11:35.758
 meaningless where the right
 
 00:11:35.798 --> 00:11:37.078
 to utter one's thoughts and
 
 00:11:37.119 --> 00:11:39.740
 opinions has ceased to exist.
 
 00:11:39.779 --> 00:11:42.341
 It's a very powerful statement.
 
 00:11:43.422 --> 00:11:44.381
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:11:44.822 --> 00:11:47.124
 Well,
 
 00:11:47.183 --> 00:11:51.765
 my definition of freedom for the
 
 00:11:51.806 --> 00:11:53.167
 colored man is the right to
 
 00:11:53.226 --> 00:11:55.107
 choose one's own employment.
 
 00:11:56.383 --> 00:11:57.703
 And if it means anything,
 
 00:11:59.145 --> 00:12:01.528
 if any individual tells
 
 00:12:01.587 --> 00:12:03.649
 another man when he shall work,
 
 00:12:04.610 --> 00:12:05.932
 where he shall work,
 
 00:12:06.032 --> 00:12:07.293
 and for what he shall work,
 
 00:12:07.653 --> 00:12:09.475
 they are reducing him to slavery.
 
 00:12:09.514 --> 00:12:10.475
 He is a slave.
 
 00:12:10.796 --> 00:12:12.177
 If he is not a slave of any
 
 00:12:12.216 --> 00:12:13.357
 individual master,
 
 00:12:13.658 --> 00:12:15.419
 he is a slave of society
 
 00:12:15.821 --> 00:12:18.143
 and holds his liberty as a privilege,
 
 00:12:18.783 --> 00:12:19.724
 not as a right.
 
 00:12:23.134 --> 00:12:26.174
 What surprised you most when
 
 00:12:26.235 --> 00:12:28.315
 you left the House of
 
 00:12:28.355 --> 00:12:31.576
 Bondage and arrived in the
 
 00:12:32.057 --> 00:12:32.716
 land of freedom?
 
 00:12:33.956 --> 00:12:35.658
 Was it all you expected or
 
 00:12:35.717 --> 00:12:37.878
 did you find things not
 
 00:12:37.918 --> 00:12:42.219
 what you expected when you became free?
 
 00:12:42.278 --> 00:12:42.619
 Well,
 
 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.321
 certainly on the minute that I
 
 00:12:46.341 --> 00:12:47.900
 escaped from Baltimore and
 
 00:12:48.725 --> 00:12:50.346
 I made my way through
 
 00:12:50.386 --> 00:12:51.427
 Annapolis and Harvard to
 
 00:12:51.447 --> 00:12:53.129
 grace to New York.
 
 00:12:54.110 --> 00:12:56.410
 I soon realized that there
 
 00:12:56.431 --> 00:13:00.293
 was still many dangers in free territory.
 
 00:13:00.955 --> 00:13:01.355
 Of course,
 
 00:13:01.414 --> 00:13:04.736
 I was a fugitive and being there
 
 00:13:04.777 --> 00:13:05.837
 in New York for all the
 
 00:13:05.878 --> 00:13:08.559
 things that were rationed
 
 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:11.241
 to me as a slave on a
 
 00:13:11.261 --> 00:13:13.182
 plantation in Maryland were
 
 00:13:13.222 --> 00:13:15.465
 there for my having without
 
 00:13:16.004 --> 00:13:17.125
 a job and money.
 
 00:13:17.839 --> 00:13:18.879
 Those things,
 
 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:21.360
 I didn't have access to them.
 
 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:24.240
 Not only that, but, of course,
 
 00:13:24.260 --> 00:13:24.980
 being a fugitive,
 
 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.402
 I could not trust many people,
 
 00:13:27.461 --> 00:13:29.162
 including other black men, because,
 
 00:13:29.221 --> 00:13:30.383
 of course,
 
 00:13:30.822 --> 00:13:32.363
 someone might take advantage of
 
 00:13:32.383 --> 00:13:34.644
 a bounty on my head, even a colored man,
 
 00:13:35.823 --> 00:13:36.664
 and turn me in.
 
 00:13:37.904 --> 00:13:41.666
 But it was really when I arrived in Boston,
 
 00:13:42.206 --> 00:13:44.346
 well, not Boston, but New Bedford,
 
 00:13:45.442 --> 00:13:48.062
 that I saw the stark contrast that I,
 
 00:13:48.082 --> 00:13:49.342
 or the misconception that I
 
 00:13:49.383 --> 00:13:52.024
 had about how money and
 
 00:13:52.104 --> 00:13:55.924
 wealth are powered free territory.
 
 00:13:56.804 --> 00:13:58.904
 Of course, on the plantation,
 
 00:13:59.325 --> 00:14:00.605
 everything that I knew of
 
 00:14:00.686 --> 00:14:03.005
 wealth was that if you owned slaves,
 
 00:14:04.046 --> 00:14:06.086
 then you had wealth.
 
 00:14:07.147 --> 00:14:08.346
 Any white man who did not
 
 00:14:08.466 --> 00:14:11.268
 own slaves was quite impoverished.
 
 00:14:12.288 --> 00:14:13.389
 And this is what I expected
 
 00:14:13.428 --> 00:14:14.989
 to see when I arrived in New Bedford.
 
 00:14:15.868 --> 00:14:18.889
 But actually, it was the opposite was true,
 
 00:14:18.929 --> 00:14:20.671
 that those men who did not
 
 00:14:20.791 --> 00:14:23.773
 own slaves had this finer house,
 
 00:14:24.413 --> 00:14:25.754
 had their own business,
 
 00:14:26.115 --> 00:14:28.515
 read as many books as any
 
 00:14:29.736 --> 00:14:32.999
 plantation owner in Virginia or Maryland.
 
 00:14:33.700 --> 00:14:35.441
 And so things were getting
 
 00:14:35.701 --> 00:14:36.861
 along quite well, even
 
 00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:39.211
 on shipyards where I was at
 
 00:14:39.270 --> 00:14:40.990
 in new bedford men were
 
 00:14:41.030 --> 00:14:42.692
 working along side by side
 
 00:14:43.072 --> 00:14:44.652
 not being whipped to make a
 
 00:14:44.692 --> 00:14:48.692
 day's wage but working and
 
 00:14:48.732 --> 00:14:50.974
 giving his diligent work to
 
 00:14:51.053 --> 00:14:55.235
 earn an honest dollar can
 
 00:14:55.254 --> 00:14:56.676
 you tell us I know the
 
 00:14:56.735 --> 00:15:00.336
 story is recounted in your autobiography
 
 00:15:01.009 --> 00:15:04.451
 about how you learned how to
 
 00:15:04.650 --> 00:15:06.111
 read and to write.
 
 00:15:06.152 --> 00:15:07.633
 It's an amazing story,
 
 00:15:08.113 --> 00:15:10.974
 if you don't mind sharing it.
 
 00:15:11.033 --> 00:15:11.354
 Yes.
 
 00:15:11.453 --> 00:15:12.333
 Well, of course,
 
 00:15:13.835 --> 00:15:15.155
 it was maybe divine
 
 00:15:15.196 --> 00:15:16.296
 providence that I was sent
 
 00:15:16.336 --> 00:15:17.836
 to Baltimore to live with
 
 00:15:17.876 --> 00:15:18.996
 my master's cousin.
 
 00:15:19.017 --> 00:15:20.197
 She was Sophia Aul.
 
 00:15:20.998 --> 00:15:23.778
 Mrs. Aul, Miss Sophia.
 
 00:15:23.798 --> 00:15:24.899
 She initially
 
 00:15:26.883 --> 00:15:27.562
 unbeknownst,
 
 00:15:28.364 --> 00:15:30.044
 not having owned slaves before,
 
 00:15:30.885 --> 00:15:32.145
 started to teach me some
 
 00:15:32.225 --> 00:15:35.008
 ABCs to read to me from the
 
 00:15:35.048 --> 00:15:36.328
 Bible or the newspaper.
 
 00:15:37.009 --> 00:15:38.230
 And once I had a few words
 
 00:15:38.269 --> 00:15:40.130
 to describe my misery, of course,
 
 00:15:40.171 --> 00:15:41.471
 my mind started to free.
 
 00:15:41.572 --> 00:15:43.613
 I started to find a new spirit.
 
 00:15:44.293 --> 00:15:45.374
 And of course, quickly,
 
 00:15:45.394 --> 00:15:46.815
 her husband found out that
 
 00:15:46.835 --> 00:15:48.176
 she was teaching me how to read.
 
 00:15:49.096 --> 00:15:49.496
 He said,
 
 00:15:49.537 --> 00:15:51.378
 do not teach that boy how to read.
 
 00:15:51.697 --> 00:15:53.499
 You will make him good for nothing.
 
 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:55.961
 An educated slave is a worthless slave.
 
 00:15:57.046 --> 00:15:58.386
 And so from that point on,
 
 00:15:58.407 --> 00:16:00.869
 she stopped teaching me how to read.
 
 00:16:01.328 --> 00:16:03.070
 And I had to start fending for myself.
 
 00:16:03.169 --> 00:16:05.072
 I would go out and as I
 
 00:16:05.172 --> 00:16:06.432
 walked the boys to school,
 
 00:16:06.533 --> 00:16:10.054
 I would steal A, Bs and Cs from them.
 
 00:16:10.735 --> 00:16:11.635
 I would trick them into
 
 00:16:11.696 --> 00:16:13.417
 making letters in the sand
 
 00:16:13.537 --> 00:16:14.457
 that I did not know.
 
 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.140
 I might share a biscuit from
 
 00:16:18.760 --> 00:16:19.662
 the breakfast table,
 
 00:16:19.922 --> 00:16:21.722
 trade a word for a biscuit.
 
 00:16:23.038 --> 00:16:24.499
 And then later, of course,
 
 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:27.961
 I was able to purchase one
 
 00:16:28.001 --> 00:16:29.282
 of the books that I saw the
 
 00:16:29.302 --> 00:16:32.303
 boys carrying on a daily basis to school,
 
 00:16:32.664 --> 00:16:34.086
 the Columbian Orator.
 
 00:16:34.985 --> 00:16:36.427
 And so once I purchased this
 
 00:16:36.706 --> 00:16:37.947
 Columbian Orator,
 
 00:16:38.408 --> 00:16:39.969
 it gave me some foundation
 
 00:16:40.028 --> 00:16:42.110
 as far as not only writing,
 
 00:16:42.191 --> 00:16:44.211
 but the skills of oratory.
 
 00:16:44.913 --> 00:16:46.453
 That book that the boys were
 
 00:16:46.474 --> 00:16:48.754
 carrying had arguments for
 
 00:16:48.894 --> 00:16:50.135
 and against slavery
 
 00:16:52.735 --> 00:16:53.996
 And so this is how I started
 
 00:16:54.037 --> 00:16:56.759
 developing my ideas about
 
 00:16:56.778 --> 00:16:58.500
 the concept of abolition
 
 00:16:59.299 --> 00:17:02.642
 and how to express myself in that way.
 
 00:17:02.682 --> 00:17:06.144
 Of course, as the master said,
 
 00:17:06.263 --> 00:17:08.385
 an educated slave is a worthless slave.
 
 00:17:08.405 --> 00:17:10.747
 It was not too long that I
 
 00:17:10.787 --> 00:17:12.327
 became quite useless to my
 
 00:17:12.407 --> 00:17:13.648
 master in Baltimore.
 
 00:17:14.128 --> 00:17:16.230
 They sent me back to Talbot County,
 
 00:17:17.270 --> 00:17:18.551
 put me under the servitude
 
 00:17:18.612 --> 00:17:20.212
 of a notorious slave breaker,
 
 00:17:20.665 --> 00:17:22.067
 by the name of Mr. Covey,
 
 00:17:22.507 --> 00:17:24.107
 who literally tried to whip
 
 00:17:24.788 --> 00:17:26.869
 the education out of me and
 
 00:17:26.890 --> 00:17:28.451
 was almost successful until
 
 00:17:28.490 --> 00:17:31.192
 I decided I would fight back.
 
 00:17:31.272 --> 00:17:33.233
 And once I demanded my manhood,
 
 00:17:33.974 --> 00:17:35.355
 then I went unmolested for
 
 00:17:35.395 --> 00:17:36.316
 the rest of the time on
 
 00:17:36.336 --> 00:17:38.357
 that plantation and ended
 
 00:17:38.438 --> 00:17:40.699
 up back in Baltimore.
 
 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.460
 And then how did you make
 
 00:17:42.500 --> 00:17:44.241
 your way out of Baltimore
 
 00:17:44.442 --> 00:17:47.182
 and escape from slavery?
 
 00:17:47.223 --> 00:17:47.463
 Well,
 
 00:17:49.284 --> 00:17:49.523
 You see,
 
 00:17:49.544 --> 00:17:51.305
 I had already tried to escape once
 
 00:17:51.384 --> 00:17:52.346
 on the plantation,
 
 00:17:52.967 --> 00:17:54.446
 Mr. Greeley's plantation,
 
 00:17:54.488 --> 00:17:56.449
 where I devised a plan with
 
 00:17:56.489 --> 00:17:58.289
 four other colored men that
 
 00:17:58.349 --> 00:18:01.711
 we would catch a raft and
 
 00:18:01.751 --> 00:18:02.472
 make our way up to
 
 00:18:02.512 --> 00:18:04.314
 Chesapeake Bay on Easter
 
 00:18:04.713 --> 00:18:05.795
 and make our escape.
 
 00:18:05.875 --> 00:18:07.276
 Unfortunately,
 
 00:18:07.355 --> 00:18:09.237
 one of them betrayed us and
 
 00:18:09.277 --> 00:18:10.097
 we were captured.
 
 00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:12.118
 But the way that I made my
 
 00:18:12.278 --> 00:18:14.701
 way out of Baltimore was
 
 00:18:14.740 --> 00:18:19.064
 that through the help of my wife,
 
 00:18:19.699 --> 00:18:20.358
 Anna Mary.
 
 00:18:20.818 --> 00:18:23.380
 You see, on the weekend, we were allowed,
 
 00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:25.540
 both free and enslaved
 
 00:18:25.580 --> 00:18:26.942
 colored people were allowed.
 
 00:18:26.961 --> 00:18:28.682
 So Anna Mary was free.
 
 00:18:28.843 --> 00:18:29.222
 Yes.
 
 00:18:30.083 --> 00:18:32.584
 And I met Anna Mary,
 
 00:18:33.104 --> 00:18:34.065
 who was the first of eight
 
 00:18:34.105 --> 00:18:35.244
 children to be born free.
 
 00:18:36.125 --> 00:18:38.905
 And so we decided that we
 
 00:18:38.945 --> 00:18:40.987
 would get married.
 
 00:18:41.047 --> 00:18:42.827
 Of course, she said, Frederick,
 
 00:18:44.048 --> 00:18:45.528
 I certainly don't mind marrying
 
 00:18:46.307 --> 00:18:47.728
 but I don't want my children,
 
 00:18:47.827 --> 00:18:50.088
 I don't want their father to be a slave.
 
 00:18:51.048 --> 00:18:52.288
 And so we decided that we
 
 00:18:52.308 --> 00:18:53.369
 would make this plan where
 
 00:18:53.390 --> 00:18:54.829
 I would dress up as a sailor,
 
 00:18:56.069 --> 00:18:57.191
 catch a train out of
 
 00:18:57.270 --> 00:19:00.171
 Baltimore through Annapolis to New York,
 
 00:19:00.211 --> 00:19:01.872
 and then I would send for Anna,
 
 00:19:02.951 --> 00:19:04.112
 and then we would start out
 
 00:19:04.152 --> 00:19:05.452
 life and freedom together.
 
 00:19:06.093 --> 00:19:07.212
 And so that's what happened.
 
 00:19:07.232 --> 00:19:09.814
 She sold her bed clothes, she sold me,
 
 00:19:10.314 --> 00:19:11.574
 made me a sailor suit,
 
 00:19:11.933 --> 00:19:13.234
 and I boarded a train,
 
 00:19:13.595 --> 00:19:14.615
 dressed as a sailor,
 
 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:17.421
 made my way out of Baltimore.
 
 00:19:17.902 --> 00:19:19.602
 So it was possible for black
 
 00:19:19.663 --> 00:19:21.143
 men to serve as sailors,
 
 00:19:21.202 --> 00:19:22.983
 both in the Navy as well as
 
 00:19:23.084 --> 00:19:24.204
 in the merchant service?
 
 00:19:24.565 --> 00:19:25.746
 Yes, they could.
 
 00:19:26.546 --> 00:19:29.428
 And so that was the technique that I used,
 
 00:19:29.508 --> 00:19:32.809
 of course, when sailors, colored sailors,
 
 00:19:32.849 --> 00:19:34.289
 they were permitted to travel.
 
 00:19:35.270 --> 00:19:37.192
 And they could travel with
 
 00:19:37.471 --> 00:19:40.213
 the identification of that of a sailor,
 
 00:19:40.233 --> 00:19:40.773
 with an eagle.
 
 00:19:41.588 --> 00:19:43.670
 As opposed to having their freedom papers.
 
 00:19:43.750 --> 00:19:45.330
 And so I remember sitting on
 
 00:19:45.351 --> 00:19:46.951
 the train and the conductor
 
 00:19:46.971 --> 00:19:49.772
 coming up to me and saying, boy,
 
 00:19:49.833 --> 00:19:52.914
 where are your freedom papers?
 
 00:19:52.954 --> 00:19:53.154
 Well,
 
 00:19:53.234 --> 00:19:55.276
 I just flashed the eagle at him and
 
 00:19:55.476 --> 00:19:56.395
 he waved me on.
 
 00:20:00.627 --> 00:20:02.709
 You also have recounted,
 
 00:20:04.229 --> 00:20:06.549
 you became a powerful speaker,
 
 00:20:06.589 --> 00:20:08.290
 but also a very profound writer.
 
 00:20:08.371 --> 00:20:11.011
 And when you moved out of Massachusetts,
 
 00:20:11.051 --> 00:20:12.832
 you started a newspaper in
 
 00:20:12.892 --> 00:20:14.653
 Rochester called the North Star.
 
 00:20:14.692 --> 00:20:15.653
 Can you tell us a bit about
 
 00:20:16.153 --> 00:20:17.233
 what it's like being a
 
 00:20:17.334 --> 00:20:20.234
 newspaper editor publisher?
 
 00:20:20.275 --> 00:20:22.276
 Well, I certainly,
 
 00:20:22.395 --> 00:20:24.155
 I had from my days of
 
 00:20:24.236 --> 00:20:25.576
 writing and contributing
 
 00:20:26.425 --> 00:20:28.366
 to Mr. Garrison's Liberator.
 
 00:20:29.228 --> 00:20:31.969
 That's where I got that itch,
 
 00:20:32.028 --> 00:20:32.950
 if you might say.
 
 00:20:34.049 --> 00:20:36.112
 And then when I was in England,
 
 00:20:39.492 --> 00:20:40.594
 during the time I was
 
 00:20:40.854 --> 00:20:42.295
 fighting for my manumission,
 
 00:20:42.795 --> 00:20:44.876
 Julia Griffiths, the Richardson family,
 
 00:20:44.936 --> 00:20:48.578
 all these people in England, raised money,
 
 00:20:48.618 --> 00:20:49.759
 not only helped me purchase
 
 00:20:49.798 --> 00:20:50.680
 my manumission,
 
 00:20:51.140 --> 00:20:52.901
 but two thousand five
 
 00:20:52.921 --> 00:20:54.501
 hundred dollars for a printing press.
 
 00:20:55.346 --> 00:20:56.946
 And so I came back from America,
 
 00:20:56.967 --> 00:20:58.126
 not only a free man,
 
 00:20:58.508 --> 00:21:00.229
 but with the intention of
 
 00:21:00.288 --> 00:21:01.689
 starting my own newspaper
 
 00:21:01.729 --> 00:21:03.130
 and having my own voice.
 
 00:21:04.309 --> 00:21:06.131
 And so this is where the
 
 00:21:06.171 --> 00:21:07.951
 real split started with Mr.
 
 00:21:07.991 --> 00:21:08.893
 Garrison and I,
 
 00:21:09.292 --> 00:21:10.673
 not just over the newspaper,
 
 00:21:11.054 --> 00:21:13.535
 but based on my philosophy now.
 
 00:21:14.162 --> 00:21:15.202
 my understanding of the
 
 00:21:15.242 --> 00:21:16.202
 constitution and the
 
 00:21:16.242 --> 00:21:18.884
 founding fathers that we
 
 00:21:18.904 --> 00:21:20.726
 should be talking about the
 
 00:21:21.227 --> 00:21:22.547
 the constitution being a
 
 00:21:22.728 --> 00:21:26.210
 remedy uh to to slavery
 
 00:21:27.570 --> 00:21:29.731
 interesting now you of
 
 00:21:29.791 --> 00:21:31.373
 course would have been both
 
 00:21:31.553 --> 00:21:33.213
 a boy and enslaved at the
 
 00:21:33.253 --> 00:21:34.335
 time of the fiftieth
 
 00:21:34.394 --> 00:21:37.217
 anniversaries of american independence
 
 00:21:38.018 --> 00:21:39.159
 then of course you're a man
 
 00:21:39.298 --> 00:21:40.279
 and free with much
 
 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:41.340
 experience in the world at
 
 00:21:41.361 --> 00:21:42.682
 the time of the centennial
 
 00:21:42.702 --> 00:21:43.703
 and I wonder if you have
 
 00:21:44.203 --> 00:21:45.325
 much to say about the
 
 00:21:45.365 --> 00:21:46.526
 hundredth anniversary of
 
 00:21:46.566 --> 00:21:50.410
 american independence yes
 
 00:21:50.529 --> 00:21:52.612
 well uh I was there in
 
 00:21:52.652 --> 00:21:54.374
 boston at faneuil hall and
 
 00:21:54.394 --> 00:21:57.336
 uh and celebrated uh the
 
 00:21:57.375 --> 00:21:58.617
 hundredth anniversary
 
 00:21:59.397 --> 00:22:02.020
 alongside uh wendell phillips and uh
 
 00:22:02.901 --> 00:22:03.942
 Mrs. Livermore,
 
 00:22:04.241 --> 00:22:05.501
 they gave me an opportunity
 
 00:22:05.541 --> 00:22:07.683
 to speak at Faneuil Hall.
 
 00:22:08.864 --> 00:22:10.525
 And it was quite peculiar
 
 00:22:10.565 --> 00:22:13.747
 because at this time, by now,
 
 00:22:14.527 --> 00:22:16.407
 the colored man had gotten
 
 00:22:16.449 --> 00:22:17.669
 the elected franchise.
 
 00:22:18.910 --> 00:22:23.132
 I had already been in Rochester,
 
 00:22:23.172 --> 00:22:24.032
 in Seneca Falls,
 
 00:22:24.093 --> 00:22:26.493
 standing with the women to
 
 00:22:26.513 --> 00:22:28.555
 demand suffrage.
 
 00:22:30.375 --> 00:22:31.576
 Unfortunately, when
 
 00:22:32.373 --> 00:22:34.554
 the Fifteenth Amendment was passed,
 
 00:22:35.534 --> 00:22:36.775
 the country was not ready
 
 00:22:36.815 --> 00:22:38.535
 and the women had to stand aside.
 
 00:22:40.455 --> 00:22:41.296
 That was too bad.
 
 00:22:41.316 --> 00:22:42.557
 And so on the speech that I
 
 00:22:42.576 --> 00:22:43.977
 gave there at Fenier Hall,
 
 00:22:44.517 --> 00:22:46.137
 I was trying to reassure
 
 00:22:46.178 --> 00:22:47.117
 the audience that I was
 
 00:22:47.178 --> 00:22:48.558
 still on the side of the women.
 
 00:22:48.679 --> 00:22:50.699
 I said to Mrs. Livermore,
 
 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.079
 I have always been for the
 
 00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:54.780
 rights of women.
 
 00:22:54.820 --> 00:22:56.201
 When I argued for the rights
 
 00:22:56.921 --> 00:22:58.521
 of the right to vote,
 
 00:22:58.662 --> 00:22:59.942
 I had the women in mind.
 
 00:23:02.215 --> 00:23:04.198
 Well, if you visit Faneuil Hall today,
 
 00:23:04.238 --> 00:23:05.419
 you'll note that your bust
 
 00:23:05.499 --> 00:23:07.661
 is there along with John Adams,
 
 00:23:07.721 --> 00:23:09.722
 Daniel Webster, John Quincy Adams,
 
 00:23:09.762 --> 00:23:10.703
 and Lucy Stone.
 
 00:23:11.744 --> 00:23:13.365
 So your voice is remembered
 
 00:23:13.405 --> 00:23:14.267
 in Faneuil Hall.
 
 00:23:16.028 --> 00:23:20.432
 Well, that's quite an honor.
 
 00:23:20.653 --> 00:23:21.574
 I feel quite honored.
 
 00:23:21.653 --> 00:23:24.436
 Well, I take that with unusual diffidence.
 
 00:23:25.563 --> 00:23:26.624
 Well, Mr. Douglas,
 
 00:23:26.663 --> 00:23:27.644
 it's a great honor to have
 
 00:23:27.703 --> 00:23:29.025
 you with us today.
 
 00:23:29.065 --> 00:23:30.045
 Is there anything further
 
 00:23:30.085 --> 00:23:31.185
 you would like to tell our
 
 00:23:31.246 --> 00:23:33.787
 audience before we let you get back to?
 
 00:23:35.969 --> 00:23:37.548
 Well, I would say I don't know.
 
 00:23:38.269 --> 00:23:38.529
 I mean,
 
 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:41.551
 although I have been asked as today
 
 00:23:42.051 --> 00:23:43.333
 to come back to the modern
 
 00:23:43.432 --> 00:23:46.693
 era and make some
 
 00:23:46.733 --> 00:23:47.694
 connection with what's
 
 00:23:47.734 --> 00:23:48.976
 going on in American
 
 00:23:49.036 --> 00:23:50.556
 society as it is today.
 
 00:23:51.057 --> 00:23:54.939
 And what I try to always leave this idea
 
 00:23:56.219 --> 00:24:01.343
 that the Constitution is a living document,
 
 00:24:01.363 --> 00:24:02.282
 a living idea.
 
 00:24:02.363 --> 00:24:05.065
 There are literally two constitutions,
 
 00:24:05.285 --> 00:24:07.405
 one founded by the founding fathers,
 
 00:24:08.047 --> 00:24:09.907
 and that Constitution that
 
 00:24:10.008 --> 00:24:13.830
 lives in all of us, in our body politic.
 
 00:24:14.990 --> 00:24:16.751
 And it is my humble
 
 00:24:17.232 --> 00:24:18.513
 summation that there are
 
 00:24:19.213 --> 00:24:23.175
 four boxes to our liberty.
 
 00:24:24.017 --> 00:24:25.377
 And those are, of course,
 
 00:24:27.895 --> 00:24:34.761
 the soapbox, the jury box, the ballot box,
 
 00:24:35.662 --> 00:24:37.022
 and the cartridge box.
 
 00:24:38.664 --> 00:24:40.286
 And so if we keep these four
 
 00:24:40.306 --> 00:24:41.507
 branches of our body
 
 00:24:41.547 --> 00:24:43.127
 politic on equal footing,
 
 00:24:43.807 --> 00:24:46.269
 we will be sitting on a stable democracy.
 
 00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:48.632
 But if we let one get
 
 00:24:49.712 --> 00:24:50.814
 heavier than the other,
 
 00:24:51.753 --> 00:24:53.055
 then we might be sitting on
 
 00:24:53.675 --> 00:24:55.017
 an unstable democracy.
 
 00:24:56.993 --> 00:24:58.134
 Well, thank you.
 
 00:24:58.595 --> 00:25:00.234
 Very, very profound thought.
 
 00:25:00.875 --> 00:25:03.415
 We've been talking with Frederick Douglass,
 
 00:25:03.435 --> 00:25:06.057
 a man who perhaps needs no introduction,
 
 00:25:06.096 --> 00:25:07.217
 but if you do need more,
 
 00:25:07.277 --> 00:25:09.417
 I invite you to read one of
 
 00:25:09.478 --> 00:25:12.419
 his autobiographies, My Slave, My Bondage,
 
 00:25:12.439 --> 00:25:13.338
 and My Freedom,
 
 00:25:14.199 --> 00:25:15.980
 The Life and Times of Frederick Douglass.
 
 00:25:16.660 --> 00:25:18.801
 and also his many speeches.
 
 00:25:19.041 --> 00:25:21.583
 And we're also joined by Nathan Richardson,
 
 00:25:21.663 --> 00:25:23.365
 who is a veteran of the
 
 00:25:23.404 --> 00:25:25.605
 United States Army, a native of Suffolk,
 
 00:25:25.625 --> 00:25:26.146
 Virginia,
 
 00:25:26.727 --> 00:25:28.647
 and the founder of Spiritual
 
 00:25:28.688 --> 00:25:30.710
 Concepts Publishing, a poet,
 
 00:25:31.670 --> 00:25:33.211
 several volumes of poetry,
 
 00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:34.392
 including The Likeness of
 
 00:25:34.432 --> 00:25:35.712
 Being and The Twenty-One
 
 00:25:35.752 --> 00:25:37.713
 Imaginary T-Shirts and The
 
 00:25:37.753 --> 00:25:40.016
 Last Seven Poems by an Unarmed Citizen.
 
 00:25:40.056 --> 00:25:40.776
 And since
 
 00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:47.480
 audiences,
 
 00:25:47.601 --> 00:25:49.582
 both live audiences as well as
 
 00:25:49.622 --> 00:25:51.202
 virtual audience.
 
 00:25:51.222 --> 00:25:52.624
 So Mr. Richardson, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:25:53.324 --> 00:25:53.864
 Thank you.
 
 00:25:53.983 --> 00:25:55.384
 Thank you, professors.
 
 00:25:55.525 --> 00:25:56.165
 It's a great honor.
 
 00:25:56.185 --> 00:25:59.287
 And so can you tell us what
 
 00:25:59.407 --> 00:26:00.907
 drew you to Frederick Douglass?
 
 00:26:02.469 --> 00:26:06.311
 Well, as you mentioned in my bio there,
 
 00:26:06.332 --> 00:26:07.932
 I was a poet.
 
 00:26:07.951 --> 00:26:09.472
 I was born a storyteller,
 
 00:26:09.512 --> 00:26:11.555
 grew up in a small community in Suffolk.
 
 00:26:12.535 --> 00:26:13.336
 And I was actually a
 
 00:26:14.364 --> 00:26:16.684
 known for being a poet and on stage,
 
 00:26:16.765 --> 00:26:19.224
 as many stages, doing spoken word.
 
 00:26:19.265 --> 00:26:20.965
 And someone approached me
 
 00:26:21.006 --> 00:26:23.266
 suggesting that I do some history.
 
 00:26:24.686 --> 00:26:27.247
 And as I started to research
 
 00:26:27.867 --> 00:26:30.768
 to decide what character I might pursue,
 
 00:26:30.847 --> 00:26:34.449
 it was Douglass' words that
 
 00:26:34.588 --> 00:26:36.849
 struck me most profoundly.
 
 00:26:37.950 --> 00:26:38.890
 Even though there were no
 
 00:26:39.049 --> 00:26:40.750
 recordings of his voice,
 
 00:26:42.346 --> 00:26:44.749
 As a poet, and he was a poet as well,
 
 00:26:44.868 --> 00:26:47.410
 Douglass wrote poems,
 
 00:26:47.509 --> 00:26:49.611
 he was acquainted with most
 
 00:26:49.651 --> 00:26:50.771
 of the poets of the day,
 
 00:26:51.711 --> 00:26:53.272
 that I really heard
 
 00:26:53.634 --> 00:26:55.334
 Frederick Douglass' voice
 
 00:26:56.555 --> 00:26:57.655
 and realized that I might
 
 00:26:57.675 --> 00:27:00.017
 be able to have some kinship with him.
 
 00:27:02.748 --> 00:27:03.188
 He does.
 
 00:27:03.248 --> 00:27:05.990
 His voice does come through in his,
 
 00:27:06.430 --> 00:27:08.530
 if you read his orations or
 
 00:27:08.550 --> 00:27:11.652
 if you read his editorials or his essays,
 
 00:27:11.892 --> 00:27:13.792
 it really does come through
 
 00:27:13.853 --> 00:27:16.534
 as a unique voice,
 
 00:27:16.673 --> 00:27:18.115
 but also one we can see in
 
 00:27:18.154 --> 00:27:19.776
 keeping with the nineteenth century,
 
 00:27:20.336 --> 00:27:20.516
 you know,
 
 00:27:20.596 --> 00:27:26.419
 idea of the orator and the philosopher.
 
 00:27:26.479 --> 00:27:27.179
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:27:27.278 --> 00:27:29.380
 He, of course, he not only
 
 00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:33.862
 as Mr. Douglass was saying
 
 00:27:34.001 --> 00:27:36.903
 in his time to speak to the audience,
 
 00:27:37.724 --> 00:27:39.905
 read the Founding Fathers, but he read,
 
 00:27:41.006 --> 00:27:42.487
 by the time he was an old man,
 
 00:27:42.988 --> 00:27:44.288
 more than five thousand books,
 
 00:27:44.367 --> 00:27:46.249
 including all the literary
 
 00:27:46.288 --> 00:27:49.330
 giants of the day, Emerson, Whittier,
 
 00:27:50.051 --> 00:27:50.571
 Whitman.
 
 00:27:51.692 --> 00:27:54.294
 And so these poets were not just poets,
 
 00:27:54.334 --> 00:27:56.414
 they were activists as well.
 
 00:27:58.215 --> 00:28:00.877
 And so they contributed
 
 00:28:01.532 --> 00:28:02.554
 from the perspective that
 
 00:28:02.574 --> 00:28:04.135
 they gave him a vernacular
 
 00:28:04.776 --> 00:28:08.819
 to add a lot of imagery to
 
 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.823
 his speeches to really help
 
 00:28:11.843 --> 00:28:13.084
 an audience see the
 
 00:28:13.144 --> 00:28:15.306
 contrast and the
 
 00:28:15.365 --> 00:28:17.087
 contradictions in American society.
 
 00:28:18.419 --> 00:28:19.619
 And he did write that one
 
 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:21.221
 short story based on the
 
 00:28:21.260 --> 00:28:22.362
 story of the Creole,
 
 00:28:22.402 --> 00:28:23.422
 and the central character
 
 00:28:23.482 --> 00:28:25.023
 is named Madison Washington,
 
 00:28:25.044 --> 00:28:26.805
 who leads a rebellion.
 
 00:28:26.825 --> 00:28:28.385
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:28.445 --> 00:28:29.626
 Well, he wrote that, and then he said,
 
 00:28:29.646 --> 00:28:29.727
 well,
 
 00:28:29.747 --> 00:28:30.586
 I think I will stick to the facts of
 
 00:28:30.606 --> 00:28:34.509
 history rather than the novella.
 
 00:28:39.353 --> 00:28:41.315
 You've appeared or been to
 
 00:28:41.355 --> 00:28:43.836
 his home in Anacostia in Washington.
 
 00:28:45.257 --> 00:28:46.979
 Yes, I've been very privileged to
 
 00:28:48.092 --> 00:28:50.453
 to stand in many of the
 
 00:28:50.473 --> 00:28:51.894
 footsteps of Frederick Douglass,
 
 00:28:51.954 --> 00:28:55.798
 including his house there in Washington,
 
 00:28:55.837 --> 00:28:59.240
 D.C., Cedar Hill, Anacostia,
 
 00:28:59.300 --> 00:29:00.442
 that whole community.
 
 00:29:00.781 --> 00:29:02.482
 He was very active throughout there,
 
 00:29:02.983 --> 00:29:04.044
 Anacostia Park.
 
 00:29:04.744 --> 00:29:06.906
 In Rochester,
 
 00:29:06.967 --> 00:29:09.067
 there is one home still
 
 00:29:09.127 --> 00:29:12.211
 standing in Rochester that he owned.
 
 00:29:12.750 --> 00:29:15.232
 Many people know about his first house on
 
 00:29:16.324 --> 00:29:17.365
 when he first moved there
 
 00:29:17.384 --> 00:29:19.186
 and then his house on South Avenue.
 
 00:29:19.788 --> 00:29:21.068
 But there was another home
 
 00:29:21.088 --> 00:29:22.049
 that he purchased
 
 00:29:22.911 --> 00:29:24.152
 specifically so he could
 
 00:29:24.172 --> 00:29:28.016
 keep his residency in New
 
 00:29:28.056 --> 00:29:30.357
 York so that he could vote
 
 00:29:31.219 --> 00:29:32.039
 as a New Yorker.
 
 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:34.321
 And so that house is still standing.
 
 00:29:34.382 --> 00:29:37.545
 It's owned by a private family,
 
 00:29:38.105 --> 00:29:39.586
 but it's still standing there.
 
 00:29:41.115 --> 00:29:42.435
 And then his second wife
 
 00:29:42.496 --> 00:29:44.096
 preserved Anacostia as
 
 00:29:44.157 --> 00:29:47.819
 memorial to him after his death.
 
 00:29:47.861 --> 00:29:51.462
 Yes, Helen Pitts, of course,
 
 00:29:52.023 --> 00:29:53.285
 one of the agreements they had,
 
 00:29:53.464 --> 00:29:54.405
 what she promised him,
 
 00:29:54.526 --> 00:29:56.307
 is that she would try to
 
 00:29:56.346 --> 00:29:57.647
 preserve his legacy.
 
 00:29:57.688 --> 00:30:00.711
 And so that house is still standing.
 
 00:30:01.230 --> 00:30:03.153
 Because of Helen Pitts and
 
 00:30:04.713 --> 00:30:06.556
 the coalition that she started,
 
 00:30:07.587 --> 00:30:08.929
 with Mary Church Terrell and
 
 00:30:09.128 --> 00:30:10.209
 other black women in the
 
 00:30:10.269 --> 00:30:12.349
 Washington DC area to
 
 00:30:12.809 --> 00:30:14.351
 preserve that property.
 
 00:30:14.371 --> 00:30:15.891
 It's really,
 
 00:30:16.230 --> 00:30:17.632
 I encourage people to visit it
 
 00:30:17.672 --> 00:30:18.692
 because it's really a very
 
 00:30:18.872 --> 00:30:20.232
 moving experience to be in
 
 00:30:20.272 --> 00:30:22.233
 the home than this house.
 
 00:30:22.273 --> 00:30:23.753
 And one thing that struck me
 
 00:30:23.894 --> 00:30:26.955
 is in his little room, his sitting room,
 
 00:30:27.256 --> 00:30:28.976
 there's a bust of Wendell Phillips.
 
 00:30:28.996 --> 00:30:30.576
 There's a portrait of Wendell Phillips.
 
 00:30:30.616 --> 00:30:31.696
 You have to go upstairs to
 
 00:30:31.717 --> 00:30:32.978
 see a picture of Garrison.
 
 00:30:34.038 --> 00:30:34.357
 Yeah.
 
 00:30:36.707 --> 00:30:40.248
 yes yes yes yes so yeah so
 
 00:30:40.288 --> 00:30:41.448
 so what's been the uh
 
 00:30:41.827 --> 00:30:42.848
 what's been the things that
 
 00:30:42.868 --> 00:30:43.729
 have surprised you of
 
 00:30:43.788 --> 00:30:44.848
 people's reaction to
 
 00:30:44.888 --> 00:30:46.130
 frederick douglas when you
 
 00:30:46.210 --> 00:30:47.549
 are appearing as him or
 
 00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:50.451
 presenting him well uh one
 
 00:30:50.490 --> 00:30:52.191
 thing in particular and and
 
 00:30:52.250 --> 00:30:54.251
 this is really all about uh
 
 00:30:54.291 --> 00:30:57.752
 what we really did uh in
 
 00:30:58.353 --> 00:31:00.553
 the previous session uh is
 
 00:31:00.594 --> 00:31:01.413
 to have a fluid
 
 00:31:01.453 --> 00:31:04.074
 conversation not just about
 
 00:31:04.193 --> 00:31:04.835
 that that's uh
 
 00:31:06.624 --> 00:31:08.425
 of history but the dashes in
 
 00:31:08.465 --> 00:31:12.828
 between is to bring that
 
 00:31:12.868 --> 00:31:14.309
 story and the relationship
 
 00:31:14.369 --> 00:31:15.730
 of Frederick Douglass to
 
 00:31:16.392 --> 00:31:18.594
 all the other people in the
 
 00:31:18.634 --> 00:31:21.776
 nineteenth century and then
 
 00:31:22.676 --> 00:31:24.018
 to it kind of really breaks
 
 00:31:24.057 --> 00:31:26.559
 down some of the brashness
 
 00:31:27.060 --> 00:31:30.702
 in the conversations and
 
 00:31:30.723 --> 00:31:32.285
 the dialogue between people.
 
 00:31:33.105 --> 00:31:35.708
 Of course, when you're when you're online,
 
 00:31:35.788 --> 00:31:36.268
 if you're
 
 00:31:36.795 --> 00:31:37.695
 on the internet,
 
 00:31:38.215 --> 00:31:40.297
 you have some sense of anonymity.
 
 00:31:40.997 --> 00:31:43.818
 You can say things that you
 
 00:31:43.878 --> 00:31:45.038
 might not say otherwise.
 
 00:31:45.118 --> 00:31:47.221
 But in the hundreds of
 
 00:31:47.260 --> 00:31:48.201
 performances that I've
 
 00:31:48.221 --> 00:31:49.362
 given across the country,
 
 00:31:50.541 --> 00:31:53.144
 people rarely have the
 
 00:31:53.183 --> 00:31:56.766
 courage to be that brash in
 
 00:31:56.786 --> 00:31:58.987
 the presence of Frederick Douglass.
 
 00:31:59.227 --> 00:32:01.548
 And I don't really claim
 
 00:32:02.028 --> 00:32:03.429
 that credit that I'm
 
 00:32:03.469 --> 00:32:04.809
 channeling Douglass that much.
 
 00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:06.560
 Just that it takes a lot
 
 00:32:06.601 --> 00:32:09.964
 more courage to have that
 
 00:32:10.005 --> 00:32:14.308
 kind of animosity in the public square.
 
 00:32:15.710 --> 00:32:19.354
 And so the questions that I
 
 00:32:19.473 --> 00:32:21.056
 started out expecting from
 
 00:32:21.215 --> 00:32:23.238
 audiences have not really
 
 00:32:23.278 --> 00:32:26.862
 materialized too many times, a few times.
 
 00:32:27.923 --> 00:32:29.183
 I might be entertaining an
 
 00:32:29.223 --> 00:32:30.644
 audience at happy hour and
 
 00:32:30.684 --> 00:32:33.487
 somebody who's had one too
 
 00:32:33.507 --> 00:32:34.928
 many and they'll ask the
 
 00:32:34.948 --> 00:32:36.690
 question and try to challenge Douglas.
 
 00:32:37.951 --> 00:32:39.592
 I'm just curious now,
 
 00:32:39.612 --> 00:32:40.972
 what kinds of questions you
 
 00:32:40.992 --> 00:32:43.714
 were expecting?
 
 00:32:43.734 --> 00:32:43.855
 Well,
 
 00:32:43.875 --> 00:32:48.417
 I certainly would expect for those
 
 00:32:48.538 --> 00:32:49.919
 people who are still
 
 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:53.481
 looking at and believe in
 
 00:32:54.603 --> 00:32:56.284
 the lost cause narrative,
 
 00:32:57.222 --> 00:32:58.624
 and still talk about those
 
 00:32:58.644 --> 00:33:01.964
 things online and amongst
 
 00:33:02.025 --> 00:33:03.506
 private groups to bring
 
 00:33:03.526 --> 00:33:04.665
 that into the public square
 
 00:33:04.685 --> 00:33:05.165
 when they have an
 
 00:33:05.226 --> 00:33:07.487
 opportunity to talk to them, right?
 
 00:33:08.146 --> 00:33:09.508
 I'm expecting... Now,
 
 00:33:09.728 --> 00:33:11.409
 one thing that I do get
 
 00:33:11.449 --> 00:33:12.669
 quite frequently is that
 
 00:33:12.709 --> 00:33:14.309
 the women will always
 
 00:33:15.670 --> 00:33:17.611
 challenge Douglas on his
 
 00:33:17.651 --> 00:33:19.152
 relationship with his wife
 
 00:33:19.491 --> 00:33:23.512
 and with Anna Mary and with
 
 00:33:23.532 --> 00:33:25.594
 Helen Pitts and with Annie Ostling.
 
 00:33:26.218 --> 00:33:27.358
 and all the women who
 
 00:33:27.419 --> 00:33:30.240
 surrounded Douglass because
 
 00:33:31.041 --> 00:33:32.423
 they're looking from the
 
 00:33:32.903 --> 00:33:34.724
 modern perspective of how
 
 00:33:35.526 --> 00:33:36.886
 relationships between men
 
 00:33:36.906 --> 00:33:37.886
 and women should be.
 
 00:33:39.429 --> 00:33:42.490
 But as one of the great philosophers said,
 
 00:33:44.071 --> 00:33:45.973
 history is a foreign country.
 
 00:33:47.335 --> 00:33:48.855
 They do things differently there.
 
 00:33:48.875 --> 00:33:50.237
 Yes, that's true.
 
 00:33:52.361 --> 00:33:54.041
 And so it's kind of hard to
 
 00:33:54.082 --> 00:33:56.823
 put our expectations on the
 
 00:33:56.843 --> 00:33:58.442
 nineteenth century and how
 
 00:33:58.502 --> 00:33:59.103
 they should have been
 
 00:33:59.262 --> 00:34:00.663
 acting at that point.
 
 00:34:01.683 --> 00:34:07.226
 But I'm always, I mean, I put in the work.
 
 00:34:08.507 --> 00:34:10.047
 I don't really get too
 
 00:34:10.086 --> 00:34:13.929
 nervous about adults asking questions,
 
 00:34:13.969 --> 00:34:15.889
 but when a child raises their hand,
 
 00:34:20.164 --> 00:34:21.764
 When I'm in Tampa, Florida,
 
 00:34:21.945 --> 00:34:23.927
 and a twelve-year-old
 
 00:34:24.146 --> 00:34:26.528
 fourth grade girl raises her hand,
 
 00:34:26.849 --> 00:34:27.851
 I do not know what's
 
 00:34:27.871 --> 00:34:28.690
 getting ready to happen.
 
 00:34:29.891 --> 00:34:33.856
 Wow.
 
 00:34:33.876 --> 00:34:34.056
 Well,
 
 00:34:34.195 --> 00:34:35.396
 thank you so much for bringing
 
 00:34:35.436 --> 00:34:36.237
 Douglass back.
 
 00:34:36.297 --> 00:34:37.239
 As you were saying,
 
 00:34:37.318 --> 00:34:38.380
 coming back into the
 
 00:34:38.420 --> 00:34:40.141
 present age as Frederick Douglass,
 
 00:34:40.202 --> 00:34:41.103
 we really could use
 
 00:34:41.182 --> 00:34:42.643
 Frederick Douglass today.
 
 00:34:42.983 --> 00:34:44.786
 So thank you for doing your part to
 
 00:34:45.353 --> 00:34:46.253
 bring him back, you know,
 
 00:34:46.273 --> 00:34:48.394
 we can always learn more from Douglass,
 
 00:34:48.454 --> 00:34:49.755
 really a profound writer,
 
 00:34:49.835 --> 00:34:51.538
 thinker and speaker.
 
 00:34:51.597 --> 00:34:52.579
 So we're fortunate that
 
 00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:53.699
 Nathan Richardson has
 
 00:34:54.579 --> 00:34:55.760
 discovered him and has
 
 00:34:56.461 --> 00:34:58.563
 taken on Frederick Douglass.
 
 00:34:59.664 --> 00:35:01.706
 Anything, we could go on all day,
 
 00:35:01.726 --> 00:35:04.427
 but I know you have other things to do.
 
 00:35:04.447 --> 00:35:06.088
 You've done a lot of poetry
 
 00:35:06.128 --> 00:35:09.751
 workshops and done
 
 00:35:09.791 --> 00:35:10.833
 tremendous work in
 
 00:35:10.972 --> 00:35:12.173
 introducing young people to
 
 00:35:12.213 --> 00:35:14.094
 poetry and by helping them
 
 00:35:14.135 --> 00:35:14.916
 find their voices.
 
 00:35:16.081 --> 00:35:17.260
 Yes, yes, you know,
 
 00:35:17.740 --> 00:35:20.461
 and that's what I started
 
 00:35:20.501 --> 00:35:22.583
 out doing as a youth activist,
 
 00:35:23.463 --> 00:35:24.943
 coaching youth poets.
 
 00:35:25.983 --> 00:35:28.364
 When Amanda Gorman stood up
 
 00:35:28.945 --> 00:35:30.505
 at the inauguration and
 
 00:35:30.545 --> 00:35:32.726
 gave that fantastic poem,
 
 00:35:33.365 --> 00:35:35.166
 everybody was startled, but I was like,
 
 00:35:35.186 --> 00:35:35.445
 wow,
 
 00:35:35.505 --> 00:35:38.527
 I've seen many young people in
 
 00:35:38.567 --> 00:35:40.108
 America just like that,
 
 00:35:40.748 --> 00:35:42.288
 with those kind of capabilities,
 
 00:35:42.407 --> 00:35:45.409
 and so that's the foundation of
 
 00:35:46.657 --> 00:35:50.559
 of my work and what I still do.
 
 00:35:51.259 --> 00:35:52.458
 And one of the things that I,
 
 00:35:53.338 --> 00:35:56.059
 to join those two worlds is
 
 00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:58.940
 a performance or a program
 
 00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:00.521
 that I bring now to
 
 00:36:00.621 --> 00:36:02.960
 literary festivals and to,
 
 00:36:04.442 --> 00:36:06.541
 such as Frederick Douglass
 
 00:36:06.961 --> 00:36:08.722
 Stands Among the Literary Giants,
 
 00:36:09.302 --> 00:36:10.742
 which he talks about all
 
 00:36:10.802 --> 00:36:12.322
 his relationships with all
 
 00:36:12.362 --> 00:36:14.443
 the poets of the era,
 
 00:36:14.523 --> 00:36:15.903
 including Phillis Wheatley,
 
 00:36:17.168 --> 00:36:18.188
 the first Black poet to
 
 00:36:18.228 --> 00:36:20.869
 write a poem to Washington,
 
 00:36:20.969 --> 00:36:22.851
 to Francis E.W.
 
 00:36:22.891 --> 00:36:24.132
 Harper, to Whittier.
 
 00:36:24.152 --> 00:36:25.192
 I mean,
 
 00:36:25.592 --> 00:36:27.413
 we really go into depth about
 
 00:36:28.333 --> 00:36:30.554
 talking about what these poets were doing,
 
 00:36:30.574 --> 00:36:31.875
 that they were literally
 
 00:36:31.936 --> 00:36:34.416
 poets are the bees of society,
 
 00:36:35.677 --> 00:36:36.998
 the bees of humanity,
 
 00:36:37.498 --> 00:36:40.440
 poets punning the growth of mankind.
 
 00:36:42.621 --> 00:36:44.481
 And so we might not be aware
 
 00:36:44.501 --> 00:36:45.242
 of what they're doing,
 
 00:36:46.416 --> 00:36:47.096
 but they are really
 
 00:36:47.115 --> 00:36:49.717
 pollinating the growth of mankind.
 
 00:36:49.737 --> 00:36:52.438
 They're still doing it, even though poets,
 
 00:36:52.597 --> 00:36:54.637
 unlike the era of Whittier
 
 00:36:54.938 --> 00:36:58.099
 or even when we were young, poets like,
 
 00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:00.039
 I don't know,
 
 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.099
 Frost and Sandberg and
 
 00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:03.541
 Marianne Moore were very
 
 00:37:03.581 --> 00:37:06.402
 much part of the public square.
 
 00:37:06.442 --> 00:37:10.242
 And now poets are still very much with us.
 
 00:37:10.282 --> 00:37:12.882
 We had a group of poets
 
 00:37:12.902 --> 00:37:14.284
 who've just done a re-create,
 
 00:37:16.141 --> 00:37:17.382
 Wheatley at two fifty,
 
 00:37:17.422 --> 00:37:18.644
 that is a number of African,
 
 00:37:18.905 --> 00:37:20.286
 actually African-American
 
 00:37:20.327 --> 00:37:21.369
 women poets who each
 
 00:37:21.429 --> 00:37:22.449
 reinterpreted one of
 
 00:37:22.570 --> 00:37:23.992
 Phyllis Wheatley's poems.
 
 00:37:24.193 --> 00:37:25.114
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:37:25.213 --> 00:37:26.715
 Reminding us of how the
 
 00:37:26.775 --> 00:37:28.197
 pollination continues.
 
 00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:30.280
 Yes, absolutely.
 
 00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:34.380
 Well, thank you so much, Nathan.
 
 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.101
 It's been wonderful talking to you.
 
 00:37:36.521 --> 00:37:38.003
 And we've been talking with
 
 00:37:38.422 --> 00:37:39.364
 Nathan Richardson,
 
 00:37:39.523 --> 00:37:41.806
 who also presents as Frederick Douglass.
 
 00:37:41.885 --> 00:37:44.186
 And Nathan Richardson is the
 
 00:37:44.246 --> 00:37:45.568
 proprietor of Spiritual
 
 00:37:45.608 --> 00:37:46.869
 Concepts Publishing.
 
 00:37:47.429 --> 00:37:48.989
 And someone did ask,
 
 00:37:49.110 --> 00:37:50.371
 how come you don't publish books?
 
 00:37:50.411 --> 00:37:51.871
 But actually, your work is something else.
 
 00:37:51.911 --> 00:37:53.612
 It's getting poets and
 
 00:37:53.652 --> 00:37:55.313
 others to discover their own voices,
 
 00:37:55.373 --> 00:37:57.094
 which is a tremendous undertaking.
 
 00:37:57.576 --> 00:38:00.478
 Yes.
 
 00:38:00.538 --> 00:38:01.518
 So thank you so much.
 
 00:38:01.998 --> 00:38:02.599
 Thank you.
 
 00:38:03.427 --> 00:38:04.788
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:38:04.887 --> 00:38:05.768
 our producer,
 
 00:38:05.987 --> 00:38:07.688
 and our listeners around the
 
 00:38:07.708 --> 00:38:09.028
 country and around the world.
 
 00:38:09.088 --> 00:38:09.750
 And every week,
 
 00:38:09.769 --> 00:38:11.210
 we thank folks who we know
 
 00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:12.710
 are tuning in regularly.
 
 00:38:13.150 --> 00:38:13.891
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:38:13.911 --> 00:38:15.072
 these places and would like
 
 00:38:15.092 --> 00:38:17.873
 some of our Revolution Two-Fifty swag,
 
 00:38:19.454 --> 00:38:20.813
 send Jonathan Lane an email,
 
 00:38:20.853 --> 00:38:23.235
 jlane at revolutiontwofifty.org.
 
 00:38:23.494 --> 00:38:26.195
 And this week, our listeners in Watertown,
 
 00:38:26.215 --> 00:38:27.077
 Massachusetts,
 
 00:38:27.757 --> 00:38:29.878
 memphis tennessee st louis
 
 00:38:29.938 --> 00:38:31.780
 missouri bangkok thailand
 
 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:33.802
 amman jordan and thank you
 
 00:38:33.902 --> 00:38:35.284
 all and all in places
 
 00:38:35.324 --> 00:38:36.565
 beyond in between for
 
 00:38:36.626 --> 00:38:38.027
 joining us and now we will
 
 00:38:38.068 --> 00:38:40.150
 be piped out on the road to boston