Francis Marion - The "Swamp Fox, " with John Oller

After World War II, book publishers and film makers worked to identify American heroes that they could promote to the world.  Frequently these heroes were self-made men who used specialized knowledge or skills to defeat an overwhelming enemy.  One such character was Francis Marion, a South Carolina plantation owner who utlized his knowledge of the countryside to prey upon British garrisons and foraging parties. We talk with John Oller, author of The Swamp Fox: How Francis Marion Saved the American Revolution. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Here we go.
 
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 Welcome, everyone,
 
 00:00:02.669 --> 00:00:04.770
 to the Revolution Two-Fifty podcast.
 
 00:00:04.851 --> 00:00:05.650
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:05.671 --> 00:00:07.331
 I chair the Rev Two-Fifty
 
 00:00:07.411 --> 00:00:08.311
 Advisory Committee,
 
 00:00:08.932 --> 00:00:10.333
 and we are a consortium of
 
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 about seventy-five
 
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 organizations in
 
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 Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the
 
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 beginnings of the American Revolution.
 
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 And our guest today is John Ahler.
 
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 John Ahler is a multi-talented individual,
 
 00:00:22.696 --> 00:00:24.257
 a college journalist,
 
 00:00:24.317 --> 00:00:25.538
 and then went to law school,
 
 00:00:25.577 --> 00:00:27.257
 became a very successful lawyer,
 
 00:00:27.378 --> 00:00:28.618
 and then in fact,
 
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 Not only did he represent
 
 00:00:30.647 --> 00:00:33.789
 Major League Baseball, he also twice,
 
 00:00:34.249 --> 00:00:34.789
 four times,
 
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 won his law firm's golf tournament.
 
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 And then he left law to write books.
 
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 And we're here to talk about
 
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 one of your eight books,
 
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 which is The Swamp Box,
 
 00:00:43.771 --> 00:00:45.213
 How Francis Marion Saved
 
 00:00:45.232 --> 00:00:46.292
 the American Revolution.
 
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 John, thanks so much for joining us.
 
 00:00:47.412 --> 00:00:50.094
 JOHN F. Glad to be here.
 
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 So what made you interested
 
 00:00:52.215 --> 00:00:53.155
 in Francis Marion?
 
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 JOHN F. Well,
 
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 I guess it goes back to the
 
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 old Walt Disney show in the late fifties,
 
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 early sixties,
 
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 which was called The Swamp Fox.
 
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 And interestingly,
 
 00:01:09.575 --> 00:01:11.096
 he was played by Leslie Nielsen,
 
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 who's more famous for the airplane.
 
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 That's right.
 
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 As a comedian.
 
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 That was a follow-up to the
 
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 Davy Crockett series.
 
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 And it was a very popular show.
 
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 And so, I don't know,
 
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 in consultation with my agent, we decided,
 
 00:01:32.353 --> 00:01:33.655
 he had not had a biography
 
 00:01:33.715 --> 00:01:34.775
 written about him,
 
 00:01:34.796 --> 00:01:36.858
 a full biography in probably forty years.
 
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 And kind of the whole
 
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 concept of special forces
 
 00:01:44.034 --> 00:01:46.155
 became very occurrent
 
 00:01:46.334 --> 00:01:47.935
 around the time of the Iraq
 
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 and Afghanistan wars.
 
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 It was kind of a natural fit
 
 00:01:52.096 --> 00:01:53.316
 there because he is
 
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 considered one of the
 
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 fathers of guerrilla warfare,
 
 00:01:58.058 --> 00:01:59.478
 asymmetrical warfare,
 
 00:01:59.498 --> 00:02:02.219
 they sometimes call it, special forces.
 
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 Yeah,
 
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 and he's someone who's also been
 
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 mythologized.
 
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 I mean, the TV show certainly does that,
 
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 and Parson Leans did a biography,
 
 00:02:12.024 --> 00:02:13.044
 but one thing you really do
 
 00:02:13.084 --> 00:02:15.284
 in the book is, well,
 
 00:02:15.365 --> 00:02:17.045
 demythologize may be the wrong word,
 
 00:02:17.126 --> 00:02:19.606
 but you give us, as close as we can,
 
 00:02:19.687 --> 00:02:21.467
 an understanding of who he was,
 
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 and different from this
 
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 mythical character,
 
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 but in many ways more interesting.
 
 00:02:26.789 --> 00:02:29.431
 Yeah, and he was also kind of
 
 00:02:30.420 --> 00:02:32.002
 portrayed loosely by Mel
 
 00:02:32.042 --> 00:02:34.024
 Gibson in the Patriot movie,
 
 00:02:34.805 --> 00:02:36.986
 which was not very accurate,
 
 00:02:37.067 --> 00:02:41.009
 at least as far as he was concerned.
 
 00:02:41.151 --> 00:02:43.372
 It had some nice scenes,
 
 00:02:43.432 --> 00:02:45.694
 but I wouldn't rely on it
 
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 as history necessarily.
 
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 And Parson Weems wrote this
 
 00:02:50.498 --> 00:02:51.620
 biography of him that
 
 00:02:51.659 --> 00:02:52.800
 really exaggerated things
 
 00:02:53.421 --> 00:02:54.983
 and upset Marion.
 
 00:02:56.647 --> 00:02:56.828
 Well,
 
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 Marion was deceased by the time that
 
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 book came out.
 
 00:03:00.192 --> 00:03:04.556
 It was written after he was... But yeah,
 
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 Parson Weems,
 
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 for those who are not familiar with him,
 
 00:03:07.259 --> 00:03:09.361
 was the same guy who wrote the book about
 
 00:03:10.099 --> 00:03:11.281
 George Washington and the
 
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 story about him chopping
 
 00:03:12.480 --> 00:03:14.021
 down the cherry tree and
 
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 cannot tell a lie.
 
 00:03:15.163 --> 00:03:17.424
 So he did wrote a book about
 
 00:03:17.484 --> 00:03:19.865
 Francis Marion, kind of in that same vein,
 
 00:03:20.044 --> 00:03:21.746
 a lot of, a lot of embellished,
 
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 in other words, kernels of truth in it.
 
 00:03:24.366 --> 00:03:25.288
 And several other
 
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 biographers over the years
 
 00:03:26.828 --> 00:03:27.709
 wrote books that,
 
 00:03:28.368 --> 00:03:30.110
 that also somewhat
 
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 mythologized him and they
 
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 had kernels of truth again.
 
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 Right.
 
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 You know, I, I, I,
 
 00:03:38.562 --> 00:03:39.823
 was able to make use of a
 
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 lot of new learning by the
 
 00:03:42.163 --> 00:03:43.145
 time I wrote my book,
 
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 archaeological findings and
 
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 pension applications and the likes,
 
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 and diaries and letters and
 
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 those sorts of things.
 
 00:03:54.192 --> 00:03:55.532
 Francis Marin did not leave
 
 00:03:55.573 --> 00:03:56.413
 a lot of writings.
 
 00:03:56.432 --> 00:03:57.614
 He had a lot of military
 
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 orders that he wrote.
 
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 In terms of actual letters,
 
 00:04:01.356 --> 00:04:02.056
 that kind of thing,
 
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 they're very few and far between.
 
 00:04:05.276 --> 00:04:06.217
 So why don't we talk a
 
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 little bit about his
 
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 background and what he's
 
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 doing before the war, as much as we know,
 
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 what military experiences.
 
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 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
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 He was born in South
 
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 Carolina on a plantation
 
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 about an hour's drive north
 
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 of Charleston.
 
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 His grandfather had
 
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 emigrated to South Carolina, I think,
 
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 in like the sixteen nineties.
 
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 He was a French Huguenot.
 
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 And they were persecuted by
 
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 Louis XIV in the Catholic
 
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 Church in France.
 
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 And so he came here, you know,
 
 00:04:42.274 --> 00:04:43.935
 seeking religious freedom.
 
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 So Marion's father was also
 
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 a South Carolinian.
 
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 And so Marion was born in
 
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 the year of George
 
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 Washington in South Carolina.
 
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 He lived for a time in
 
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 Georgetown on the coast of
 
 00:05:01.492 --> 00:05:02.391
 South Carolina.
 
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 And he was basically a planter.
 
 00:05:09.387 --> 00:05:11.007
 I would say a relatively
 
 00:05:11.067 --> 00:05:12.048
 small time planner.
 
 00:05:12.069 --> 00:05:13.250
 He didn't own a huge,
 
 00:05:13.269 --> 00:05:16.011
 huge plantation like some people.
 
 00:05:16.512 --> 00:05:17.351
 And then he got into the
 
 00:05:17.372 --> 00:05:19.533
 military when South
 
 00:05:19.572 --> 00:05:21.093
 Carolina had problems with
 
 00:05:21.134 --> 00:05:24.016
 the Cherokee Indians in the
 
 00:05:24.055 --> 00:05:25.557
 western part of South Carolina.
 
 00:05:26.237 --> 00:05:27.197
 Marion was one of the
 
 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.480
 enlistees among the
 
 00:05:30.500 --> 00:05:31.581
 military that went there.
 
 00:05:32.641 --> 00:05:33.740
 and fought the Cherokees.
 
 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:34.862
 And it was there that he
 
 00:05:34.882 --> 00:05:36.362
 kind of learned a lot of
 
 00:05:36.382 --> 00:05:38.201
 the guerrilla tactics,
 
 00:05:38.322 --> 00:05:39.262
 which were more practiced
 
 00:05:39.302 --> 00:05:41.002
 by the Native Americans at
 
 00:05:41.023 --> 00:05:42.682
 the time than the British.
 
 00:05:42.723 --> 00:05:46.564
 He was actually part of the British army.
 
 00:05:48.223 --> 00:05:49.463
 And then from there,
 
 00:05:51.103 --> 00:05:54.485
 after the revolution broke
 
 00:05:54.584 --> 00:05:56.584
 out in seventeen seventy five,
 
 00:05:57.365 --> 00:05:59.185
 he became a member of the
 
 00:06:00.653 --> 00:06:03.295
 continental force in South Carolina,
 
 00:06:03.497 --> 00:06:05.319
 you know, started out as a captain,
 
 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:05.718
 I think,
 
 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:06.860
 and then rose through the ranks
 
 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:08.701
 to a lieutenant colonel.
 
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 So he really began his
 
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 training was twofold.
 
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 It was the British Army.
 
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 So where he kind of learned discipline.
 
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 Yeah.
 
 00:06:20.952 --> 00:06:22.314
 the Continental Army where
 
 00:06:23.375 --> 00:06:25.557
 as an officer he imposed discipline.
 
 00:06:26.697 --> 00:06:28.740
 So then he morphs into this
 
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 militia commander in the
 
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 Revolution where there was
 
 00:06:32.963 --> 00:06:33.964
 very little discipline.
 
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 And he had trouble, you know,
 
 00:06:36.442 --> 00:06:38.483
 he had trouble keeping men
 
 00:06:38.642 --> 00:06:40.363
 in his unit because they
 
 00:06:40.403 --> 00:06:42.425
 were volunteers at that point.
 
 00:06:42.605 --> 00:06:43.545
 And, you know,
 
 00:06:43.565 --> 00:06:45.826
 they'd go home to their farms, you know,
 
 00:06:45.846 --> 00:06:46.706
 planting season,
 
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 and they kind of came and
 
 00:06:47.767 --> 00:06:49.309
 went when they felt like it.
 
 00:06:49.329 --> 00:06:51.990
 So he couldn't be too strict with them.
 
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 It was a balancing act.
 
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 He couldn't be too strict
 
 00:06:54.651 --> 00:06:56.192
 because they would just say,
 
 00:06:56.252 --> 00:06:56.791
 I'm out of here.
 
 00:07:00.115 --> 00:07:01.336
 So he learned the partisan
 
 00:07:01.396 --> 00:07:02.639
 guerrilla tactics,
 
 00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:05.043
 applied those in the battle
 
 00:07:05.103 --> 00:07:06.927
 against the British and the
 
 00:07:06.966 --> 00:07:08.951
 Tories in South Carolina
 
 00:07:09.050 --> 00:07:10.552
 from seventeen eighty to eighty two.
 
 00:07:10.572 --> 00:07:11.375
 Interesting.
 
 00:07:12.627 --> 00:07:14.389
 So about how many men would
 
 00:07:14.428 --> 00:07:15.709
 he have had in his unit
 
 00:07:15.728 --> 00:07:16.850
 when he's leading this?
 
 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:18.470
 You know, when he started out,
 
 00:07:18.529 --> 00:07:20.250
 it was maybe fifteen or twenty.
 
 00:07:20.271 --> 00:07:22.350
 I think about the most he
 
 00:07:22.471 --> 00:07:25.773
 ever had in the partisan
 
 00:07:25.812 --> 00:07:26.973
 campaign during the
 
 00:07:27.033 --> 00:07:28.713
 Revolution was maybe about
 
 00:07:28.733 --> 00:07:29.473
 one hundred and fifty,
 
 00:07:29.494 --> 00:07:30.694
 something like that.
 
 00:07:31.053 --> 00:07:33.454
 You know, fifty,
 
 00:07:33.514 --> 00:07:36.196
 seventy five might be a good average.
 
 00:07:38.529 --> 00:07:40.533
 You make the point in your book, though,
 
 00:07:40.553 --> 00:07:42.478
 that he is able to make the
 
 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.483
 British think that he is ubiquitous,
 
 00:07:44.523 --> 00:07:45.485
 that he's everywhere.
 
 00:07:45.865 --> 00:07:47.629
 And that's a part of his mystique.
 
 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:48.762
 yeah well one of his
 
 00:07:48.802 --> 00:07:50.202
 advantages having grown up
 
 00:07:50.242 --> 00:07:51.463
 in south carolina he knew
 
 00:07:51.504 --> 00:07:52.925
 the terrain he knew a lot
 
 00:07:52.966 --> 00:07:56.067
 of people he employed a lot
 
 00:07:56.088 --> 00:07:58.750
 of spies and they kind of
 
 00:07:59.130 --> 00:08:00.211
 you know went out to the
 
 00:08:00.252 --> 00:08:02.533
 countryside and made his
 
 00:08:02.593 --> 00:08:04.315
 presence known and so the
 
 00:08:04.355 --> 00:08:05.357
 british kind of thought he
 
 00:08:05.396 --> 00:08:07.257
 was everywhere and they I
 
 00:08:07.278 --> 00:08:08.579
 think they overestimated
 
 00:08:08.660 --> 00:08:10.600
 his true numbers although
 
 00:08:11.141 --> 00:08:12.802
 he did inflict a lot of damage
 
 00:08:13.764 --> 00:08:15.464
 on the British and Lord
 
 00:08:15.504 --> 00:08:17.966
 Cornwallis and others of that type,
 
 00:08:18.185 --> 00:08:19.865
 attacking their supply lines,
 
 00:08:20.187 --> 00:08:21.226
 cutting off their supply
 
 00:08:21.266 --> 00:08:22.708
 chains and the like.
 
 00:08:24.608 --> 00:08:27.009
 And he appeared on the scene
 
 00:08:27.548 --> 00:08:29.310
 in South Carolina at a time
 
 00:08:29.350 --> 00:08:30.230
 when it was a very,
 
 00:08:30.711 --> 00:08:32.150
 it was a dark time for the
 
 00:08:32.171 --> 00:08:33.292
 American cause.
 
 00:08:34.152 --> 00:08:37.452
 The British had subdued
 
 00:08:37.572 --> 00:08:38.693
 North and South Carolina
 
 00:08:39.693 --> 00:08:41.475
 in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, in,
 
 00:08:41.495 --> 00:08:43.037
 uh, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh,
 
 00:09:03.217 --> 00:09:06.159
 uh in uh in a house on trad
 
 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:08.120
 street in charleston and uh
 
 00:09:08.660 --> 00:09:09.421
 at least according to the
 
 00:09:09.461 --> 00:09:10.302
 legend I don't know how
 
 00:09:10.341 --> 00:09:12.722
 much of this is true um the
 
 00:09:12.743 --> 00:09:14.163
 the host had locked the
 
 00:09:14.182 --> 00:09:16.043
 doors so that nobody could
 
 00:09:16.104 --> 00:09:17.144
 leave they had to get all
 
 00:09:17.184 --> 00:09:18.745
 their drinking done he was
 
 00:09:18.806 --> 00:09:19.686
 not a big drinker
 
 00:09:22.325 --> 00:09:23.667
 allegedly jumped out of a
 
 00:09:23.726 --> 00:09:25.690
 second story window to
 
 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:27.152
 escape the party and the
 
 00:09:27.172 --> 00:09:28.633
 merriment uh broke his
 
 00:09:28.734 --> 00:09:30.635
 ankle or sprained his ankle
 
 00:09:30.655 --> 00:09:33.320
 badly and retreated to the
 
 00:09:33.340 --> 00:09:34.841
 countryside to recover
 
 00:09:35.554 --> 00:09:37.537
 during his retirement to the
 
 00:09:37.557 --> 00:09:39.798
 countryside uh where he was
 
 00:09:39.837 --> 00:09:40.798
 cared for by different
 
 00:09:41.099 --> 00:09:42.240
 friends and plantation
 
 00:09:42.299 --> 00:09:43.701
 owners the british took
 
 00:09:43.941 --> 00:09:45.302
 took charleston and when
 
 00:09:45.322 --> 00:09:46.942
 they took charleston they
 
 00:09:46.982 --> 00:09:49.365
 basically forced the
 
 00:09:49.404 --> 00:09:51.547
 population to sign oaths of
 
 00:09:51.606 --> 00:09:55.068
 allegiance monarchy marion
 
 00:09:55.109 --> 00:09:56.269
 never signed one of those
 
 00:09:56.289 --> 00:09:58.672
 so he was free to you know
 
 00:09:58.851 --> 00:10:00.393
 become a part of the
 
 00:10:00.432 --> 00:10:01.573
 resistance which he did
 
 00:10:03.652 --> 00:10:05.893
 And then there were others like Pickens,
 
 00:10:05.993 --> 00:10:08.234
 Sumter, that he interacts with,
 
 00:10:08.254 --> 00:10:09.813
 who also become partisan commanders.
 
 00:10:09.854 --> 00:10:11.455
 I wonder how he contrasts
 
 00:10:11.514 --> 00:10:12.995
 with those characters.
 
 00:10:13.534 --> 00:10:13.774
 Well,
 
 00:10:14.816 --> 00:10:16.875
 Marion operated mostly in the
 
 00:10:16.916 --> 00:10:19.277
 Lowcountry of South Carolina,
 
 00:10:19.317 --> 00:10:21.457
 which is kind of the east and southeast
 
 00:10:22.115 --> 00:10:23.475
 in a bit of the northeast part.
 
 00:10:23.576 --> 00:10:25.116
 Sumter was kind of more in
 
 00:10:25.157 --> 00:10:29.758
 the middle and in southwest
 
 00:10:29.878 --> 00:10:31.739
 and Pickens was in the far
 
 00:10:31.778 --> 00:10:34.139
 west in the old Indian country.
 
 00:10:34.318 --> 00:10:35.440
 So Pickens spent a lot of
 
 00:10:35.460 --> 00:10:36.919
 time fighting Native
 
 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:38.880
 Americans even during the Revolution.
 
 00:10:39.541 --> 00:10:43.121
 Sumter was a native Virginian actually.
 
 00:10:44.043 --> 00:10:45.823
 um who moved to south
 
 00:10:45.864 --> 00:10:47.544
 carolina he was a kind of a
 
 00:10:47.605 --> 00:10:49.485
 brash very very much the
 
 00:10:49.566 --> 00:10:50.985
 opposite of marion
 
 00:10:51.005 --> 00:10:52.126
 something with brash
 
 00:10:52.246 --> 00:10:54.807
 boastful um you know larger
 
 00:10:54.827 --> 00:10:57.229
 than life kind of figure um
 
 00:10:57.288 --> 00:10:59.090
 who's somewhat reckless in
 
 00:10:59.389 --> 00:11:00.630
 taking his troops into
 
 00:11:00.671 --> 00:11:02.130
 battle marion was just the
 
 00:11:02.211 --> 00:11:03.292
 opposite he was a very
 
 00:11:03.451 --> 00:11:08.053
 reserved quiet unassuming man who um
 
 00:11:08.735 --> 00:11:10.794
 deliberately did not take
 
 00:11:10.855 --> 00:11:12.875
 his men into battle if they
 
 00:11:12.916 --> 00:11:15.936
 were badly outnumbered or
 
 00:11:15.995 --> 00:11:17.655
 he thought that they didn't have some,
 
 00:11:18.017 --> 00:11:18.777
 they needed to have some
 
 00:11:18.817 --> 00:11:20.277
 advantage of surprise or
 
 00:11:20.317 --> 00:11:22.236
 ambush in order to take his
 
 00:11:22.297 --> 00:11:24.817
 small numbers into a battle.
 
 00:11:25.097 --> 00:11:27.577
 So Marion didn't get along with Sumter.
 
 00:11:28.337 --> 00:11:31.178
 He didn't have many dealings with Pickens,
 
 00:11:32.318 --> 00:11:33.178
 with one exception.
 
 00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:34.599
 But yeah,
 
 00:11:34.658 --> 00:11:37.960
 Sumter technically had more seniority
 
 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:41.001
 and Marion kind of lorded it over him.
 
 00:11:42.302 --> 00:11:43.604
 Marion kind of chafed under
 
 00:11:43.663 --> 00:11:46.167
 Sumter's leadership and
 
 00:11:46.246 --> 00:11:47.467
 eventually they had a big
 
 00:11:48.107 --> 00:11:49.929
 falling out and never spoke
 
 00:11:49.970 --> 00:11:50.630
 to each other again.
 
 00:11:50.650 --> 00:11:52.251
 Wow, interesting.
 
 00:11:52.552 --> 00:11:53.873
 We're talking with John Ahler,
 
 00:11:54.014 --> 00:11:55.335
 author of The Swamp Fox,
 
 00:11:55.355 --> 00:11:56.875
 How Francis Marion Saved
 
 00:11:56.895 --> 00:11:58.256
 the American Revolution.
 
 00:11:59.278 --> 00:12:00.379
 Is he ever called the Swamp
 
 00:12:00.418 --> 00:12:01.220
 Fox in his life?
 
 00:12:02.028 --> 00:12:02.928
 Not in his lifetime.
 
 00:12:02.969 --> 00:12:05.352
 That first appears, I believe,
 
 00:12:05.893 --> 00:12:07.095
 in the Parson Weems book,
 
 00:12:07.936 --> 00:12:10.279
 written around eighteen, ten or fifteen.
 
 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:10.600
 Okay.
 
 00:12:13.106 --> 00:12:14.227
 One of the things that
 
 00:12:14.248 --> 00:12:15.808
 really comes across in the
 
 00:12:15.849 --> 00:12:17.471
 book is that in Charleston,
 
 00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:18.191
 you mentioned that he
 
 00:12:18.230 --> 00:12:20.232
 doesn't take the oath, others do,
 
 00:12:20.712 --> 00:12:22.595
 that he's actually, in some cases,
 
 00:12:22.634 --> 00:12:23.775
 fighting against men who
 
 00:12:23.816 --> 00:12:25.856
 had been part of his unit before,
 
 00:12:25.876 --> 00:12:27.158
 that is shifting loyalties
 
 00:12:27.197 --> 00:12:29.480
 among loyalists, Tories,
 
 00:12:29.940 --> 00:12:31.682
 and patriots in South Carolina.
 
 00:12:31.922 --> 00:12:32.783
 We can talk a little bit
 
 00:12:32.822 --> 00:12:36.465
 about this mix or these shifting,
 
 00:12:36.725 --> 00:12:38.067
 the nature of the war.
 
 00:12:38.681 --> 00:12:39.601
 Yeah,
 
 00:12:39.621 --> 00:12:41.644
 it was interesting because you had
 
 00:12:41.683 --> 00:12:43.065
 the Tories which were loyal
 
 00:12:43.105 --> 00:12:44.004
 to the British and the
 
 00:12:44.065 --> 00:12:45.706
 Patriots who were the rebels.
 
 00:12:47.447 --> 00:12:50.510
 And it wasn't necessarily
 
 00:12:50.551 --> 00:12:52.432
 the case that it was ideological.
 
 00:12:52.451 --> 00:12:53.432
 In other words,
 
 00:12:53.452 --> 00:12:54.813
 I'm not sure that all the
 
 00:12:54.854 --> 00:12:56.395
 Tories were so in love with
 
 00:12:56.596 --> 00:12:57.716
 the English monarchy.
 
 00:12:57.876 --> 00:12:59.357
 And I'm not sure that all
 
 00:12:59.378 --> 00:13:00.839
 the Patriots were so
 
 00:13:00.938 --> 00:13:02.039
 hateful of the British.
 
 00:13:02.220 --> 00:13:05.562
 But the demarcation and the
 
 00:13:06.140 --> 00:13:08.442
 kind of developed out of an
 
 00:13:09.363 --> 00:13:10.783
 earlier period in South
 
 00:13:10.803 --> 00:13:11.845
 Carolina where there were
 
 00:13:11.884 --> 00:13:14.606
 groups of marauding vigilantes,
 
 00:13:14.787 --> 00:13:16.207
 countervigilantes,
 
 00:13:16.268 --> 00:13:17.769
 and it kind of morphed
 
 00:13:18.669 --> 00:13:20.711
 loosely into Tories and patriots.
 
 00:13:20.910 --> 00:13:21.951
 And sometimes people's
 
 00:13:21.991 --> 00:13:24.693
 loyalties were determined by, you know,
 
 00:13:26.215 --> 00:13:27.875
 a guy's horse had been
 
 00:13:27.936 --> 00:13:30.097
 stolen by a patriot, so he became a Tory.
 
 00:13:32.099 --> 00:13:33.559
 Or a patriot wanted a
 
 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:36.140
 promotion within the patriot military.
 
 00:13:36.160 --> 00:13:37.621
 He didn't get it and he was upset,
 
 00:13:37.741 --> 00:13:39.523
 so he jumped over to the Tory side.
 
 00:13:40.423 --> 00:13:41.504
 And sometimes they shifted
 
 00:13:41.524 --> 00:13:42.605
 back and forth three or
 
 00:13:42.644 --> 00:13:44.225
 four times during the war.
 
 00:13:44.985 --> 00:13:46.667
 And it was a very vicious
 
 00:13:47.326 --> 00:13:49.969
 civil war within South Carolina.
 
 00:13:50.609 --> 00:13:52.110
 And Marion spent as much
 
 00:13:52.169 --> 00:13:56.652
 time or more fighting Americans, you know,
 
 00:13:56.672 --> 00:13:59.193
 Tories, as he did the British regulars.
 
 00:14:01.437 --> 00:14:02.918
 It's really one of the amazing stories,
 
 00:14:02.937 --> 00:14:04.458
 like the Battle of Kings Mountain,
 
 00:14:04.499 --> 00:14:05.339
 where he wasn't.
 
 00:14:05.578 --> 00:14:08.159
 There's only one British person there,
 
 00:14:08.400 --> 00:14:10.201
 Commander Ferguson, Andrew Ferguson.
 
 00:14:11.182 --> 00:14:12.363
 The others are Americans who
 
 00:14:12.383 --> 00:14:13.623
 are fighting against each other.
 
 00:14:13.883 --> 00:14:14.803
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:14:15.563 --> 00:14:17.764
 So it was kind of like the
 
 00:14:17.825 --> 00:14:19.625
 Civil War of the eighteen sixties,
 
 00:14:19.686 --> 00:14:25.568
 a very brutal, vicious confrontation.
 
 00:14:25.609 --> 00:14:28.691
 That one was driven more by geography and
 
 00:14:29.341 --> 00:14:32.341
 ideology than the South
 
 00:14:32.361 --> 00:14:33.663
 Carolina civilization.
 
 00:14:35.102 --> 00:14:36.403
 You also make a point about
 
 00:14:36.484 --> 00:14:38.144
 the talent pool that's available.
 
 00:14:38.183 --> 00:14:39.485
 The Patriot commanders seem
 
 00:14:39.524 --> 00:14:40.565
 to come from a higher
 
 00:14:40.625 --> 00:14:41.865
 social standing than the
 
 00:14:42.485 --> 00:14:43.566
 Loyalist commanders.
 
 00:14:43.586 --> 00:14:44.826
 I don't know if that's true
 
 00:14:44.846 --> 00:14:45.527
 or just something you
 
 00:14:45.547 --> 00:14:47.927
 observed in the course of your research.
 
 00:14:48.447 --> 00:14:49.268
 I think that's true.
 
 00:14:49.307 --> 00:14:50.187
 Most of the Patriot
 
 00:14:50.227 --> 00:14:52.808
 commanders were from the, quote,
 
 00:14:52.828 --> 00:14:53.610
 Whig party.
 
 00:14:54.590 --> 00:14:56.951
 Whigs or Patriots had really
 
 00:14:58.471 --> 00:15:00.231
 consolidated their control
 
 00:15:00.331 --> 00:15:01.793
 of South Carolina during
 
 00:15:01.812 --> 00:15:03.333
 this earlier period of
 
 00:15:03.453 --> 00:15:06.076
 battles between the
 
 00:15:06.375 --> 00:15:07.917
 vigilantes and countervigilantes.
 
 00:15:07.937 --> 00:15:09.638
 So the Whigs really took control.
 
 00:15:09.898 --> 00:15:11.357
 They tended to draw their,
 
 00:15:11.958 --> 00:15:12.958
 because they were the more
 
 00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:14.100
 elected officials,
 
 00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:15.681
 they tend to draw their
 
 00:15:16.260 --> 00:15:19.602
 composition from the more landed people,
 
 00:15:20.163 --> 00:15:21.663
 the higher class people.
 
 00:15:21.803 --> 00:15:22.465
 And so the
 
 00:15:23.442 --> 00:15:25.523
 The Tory commanders were
 
 00:15:25.582 --> 00:15:26.964
 typically a little more
 
 00:15:27.705 --> 00:15:29.446
 rough around the edges, I would say,
 
 00:15:30.525 --> 00:15:31.746
 than the Patriot commanders.
 
 00:15:33.008 --> 00:15:34.509
 That's interesting because, of course,
 
 00:15:34.548 --> 00:15:35.870
 the romantic depiction of
 
 00:15:35.950 --> 00:15:39.032
 Marian is leading this kind of band of
 
 00:15:39.712 --> 00:15:40.432
 Irregulars,
 
 00:15:40.613 --> 00:15:42.374
 but he does come and he's
 
 00:15:42.394 --> 00:15:45.195
 elected to office after as the war ends,
 
 00:15:45.355 --> 00:15:46.975
 he's in the provincial assembly.
 
 00:15:47.054 --> 00:15:47.775
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:15:48.235 --> 00:15:49.336
 I would describe him as I
 
 00:15:49.355 --> 00:15:51.057
 don't think he was quite
 
 00:15:51.136 --> 00:15:54.898
 the aristocratic planter of
 
 00:15:54.957 --> 00:15:55.817
 South Carolina.
 
 00:15:55.898 --> 00:15:57.259
 That's kind of the stereotype.
 
 00:15:57.278 --> 00:15:58.359
 He was more of a middle
 
 00:15:58.458 --> 00:16:00.840
 upper middle class farmer.
 
 00:16:02.341 --> 00:16:07.663
 And he was not initially a firebrand.
 
 00:16:07.702 --> 00:16:08.563
 He wasn't one of these guys
 
 00:16:08.583 --> 00:16:09.583
 who would get up and, you know,
 
 00:16:10.004 --> 00:16:10.725
 Patrick Henry,
 
 00:16:10.745 --> 00:16:12.385
 give me liberty or give me death.
 
 00:16:12.985 --> 00:16:14.466
 But he was very committed to
 
 00:16:14.486 --> 00:16:15.587
 the patriot cause.
 
 00:16:15.607 --> 00:16:18.870
 He was a true patriot in that sense,
 
 00:16:18.990 --> 00:16:20.931
 as was most of his family,
 
 00:16:20.951 --> 00:16:21.951
 his extended family.
 
 00:16:21.971 --> 00:16:24.091
 He has a lot of brothers and sisters, too.
 
 00:16:25.643 --> 00:16:27.563
 Yeah, yeah, he was one of six children.
 
 00:16:27.644 --> 00:16:28.903
 I think all five brothers
 
 00:16:28.923 --> 00:16:31.225
 were pretty heavily into
 
 00:16:31.245 --> 00:16:32.826
 the Patriot cause.
 
 00:16:32.865 --> 00:16:35.626
 Now, of course, being a planter,
 
 00:16:35.667 --> 00:16:36.466
 he's a slave owner.
 
 00:16:36.486 --> 00:16:38.248
 That's true, that's true.
 
 00:16:38.528 --> 00:16:39.427
 You know, I don't think he had,
 
 00:16:39.668 --> 00:16:40.708
 it's not like he had
 
 00:16:41.528 --> 00:16:43.289
 thousands of slaves in his field.
 
 00:16:43.350 --> 00:16:45.250
 He had, you know, maybe a few dozen.
 
 00:16:45.971 --> 00:16:47.171
 And then he had,
 
 00:16:47.630 --> 00:16:48.971
 we don't really know much
 
 00:16:49.032 --> 00:16:51.533
 about how he got along or
 
 00:16:51.572 --> 00:16:53.633
 treated his field slaves,
 
 00:16:53.714 --> 00:16:54.573
 but he did have some...
 
 00:16:55.193 --> 00:16:56.696
 I'll call them the domestics
 
 00:16:56.775 --> 00:16:59.658
 who served in the house and
 
 00:16:59.738 --> 00:17:02.421
 were um and there were
 
 00:17:02.441 --> 00:17:03.380
 maybe maybe a half a dozen
 
 00:17:03.441 --> 00:17:05.143
 of those and from all the
 
 00:17:05.202 --> 00:17:07.285
 evidence uh he treated them
 
 00:17:07.345 --> 00:17:09.886
 pretty benevolently and got
 
 00:17:09.926 --> 00:17:11.568
 along pretty well with them
 
 00:17:11.588 --> 00:17:14.310
 yeah and one of them one of
 
 00:17:14.330 --> 00:17:16.272
 them is with him for much of the war
 
 00:17:16.913 --> 00:17:18.974
 Yes, a guy named,
 
 00:17:20.797 --> 00:17:21.936
 some people call him Oscar,
 
 00:17:21.977 --> 00:17:22.958
 some call him Buddy.
 
 00:17:23.137 --> 00:17:24.638
 He was actually, interestingly,
 
 00:17:24.699 --> 00:17:27.381
 he was gifted to Mary.
 
 00:17:27.401 --> 00:17:29.502
 When Marian was born, his uncle,
 
 00:17:29.542 --> 00:17:31.104
 who was a fairly kind of
 
 00:17:31.124 --> 00:17:32.505
 the proverbial rich uncle,
 
 00:17:33.625 --> 00:17:35.967
 gave him as a gift three slaves,
 
 00:17:37.107 --> 00:17:38.929
 one of whom was this Buddy,
 
 00:17:39.769 --> 00:17:42.290
 who was roughly the same age as Marian.
 
 00:17:42.310 --> 00:17:43.392
 They grew up together.
 
 00:17:44.212 --> 00:17:45.894
 And when the war came...
 
 00:17:46.473 --> 00:17:48.276
 Buddy became kind of his,
 
 00:17:49.176 --> 00:17:49.978
 what they used to call a
 
 00:17:50.018 --> 00:17:54.282
 manservant or valet, and served with him.
 
 00:17:55.464 --> 00:17:57.227
 You know, he was a slave.
 
 00:17:57.267 --> 00:17:58.708
 He was not a freeman.
 
 00:17:59.588 --> 00:18:02.071
 There were some...
 
 00:18:02.972 --> 00:18:06.596
 small handful of free blacks
 
 00:18:06.715 --> 00:18:09.278
 who served with Marion during the war.
 
 00:18:10.378 --> 00:18:12.599
 But really on both sides,
 
 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:13.760
 British and American,
 
 00:18:14.481 --> 00:18:16.542
 the slaves who participated in the war,
 
 00:18:17.824 --> 00:18:18.744
 for the most part,
 
 00:18:18.924 --> 00:18:21.207
 were recruited to do the menial tasks,
 
 00:18:21.227 --> 00:18:21.626
 you know,
 
 00:18:21.928 --> 00:18:23.167
 digging the ditches and that
 
 00:18:23.228 --> 00:18:23.608
 sort of thing.
 
 00:18:23.628 --> 00:18:23.709
 Yeah.
 
 00:18:23.729 --> 00:18:23.989
 Yeah.
 
 00:18:25.922 --> 00:18:28.483
 In that painting by John
 
 00:18:28.503 --> 00:18:31.005
 Blake White of Marion,
 
 00:18:31.806 --> 00:18:32.926
 presumably it's Buddy who's
 
 00:18:32.946 --> 00:18:35.709
 the one cutting up the... Behind him.
 
 00:18:35.749 --> 00:18:36.888
 Many people think that Buddy
 
 00:18:36.929 --> 00:18:38.289
 is the one kneeling down,
 
 00:18:38.770 --> 00:18:40.652
 but that was probably a field hand.
 
 00:18:40.692 --> 00:18:42.692
 Buddy is the one behind him.
 
 00:18:42.752 --> 00:18:45.075
 I think he's holding his coat,
 
 00:18:45.154 --> 00:18:46.375
 about to put his coat on him.
 
 00:18:47.836 --> 00:18:48.876
 And then Buddy was actually
 
 00:18:48.916 --> 00:18:51.419
 commemorated by the second
 
 00:18:51.499 --> 00:18:52.480
 President Bush,
 
 00:18:54.201 --> 00:18:55.840
 um and I remember around in
 
 00:18:55.861 --> 00:18:56.842
 was given sort of you know
 
 00:18:56.882 --> 00:18:58.282
 sort of a metal posthumous
 
 00:18:58.343 --> 00:19:00.124
 metal freedom kind of thing
 
 00:19:02.365 --> 00:19:03.865
 um it was noted when when
 
 00:19:04.226 --> 00:19:05.846
 um marion's men come into
 
 00:19:05.886 --> 00:19:07.586
 horatio gates's camp I mean
 
 00:19:07.606 --> 00:19:09.288
 the description of them by
 
 00:19:09.367 --> 00:19:11.068
 others and it is this um
 
 00:19:11.809 --> 00:19:13.390
 multi-racial group of the
 
 00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:15.270
 drag really bedraggled
 
 00:19:15.310 --> 00:19:16.311
 outlandish characters
 
 00:19:16.352 --> 00:19:17.311
 according to dates and
 
 00:19:17.332 --> 00:19:18.313
 those who are observing them
 
 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:19.000
 Yes,
 
 00:19:19.201 --> 00:19:21.202
 the Continental men actually kind of
 
 00:19:21.282 --> 00:19:23.664
 laughed and mocked Marion's
 
 00:19:24.125 --> 00:19:26.288
 militia when they came in.
 
 00:19:26.307 --> 00:19:28.471
 Gates was the Continental
 
 00:19:28.490 --> 00:19:30.712
 commander in the South at that time.
 
 00:19:31.574 --> 00:19:33.215
 And Gates didn't have much,
 
 00:19:33.276 --> 00:19:34.576
 he didn't really know how
 
 00:19:34.616 --> 00:19:36.019
 to use these militia men.
 
 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.541
 He was an English trained open field.
 
 00:19:40.182 --> 00:19:40.722
 general.
 
 00:19:41.044 --> 00:19:42.604
 And so he got these militia guys.
 
 00:19:42.624 --> 00:19:44.546
 They were kind of a ragtag bunch.
 
 00:19:44.566 --> 00:19:46.707
 He sent them off on some
 
 00:19:46.747 --> 00:19:49.248
 kind of make work projects.
 
 00:19:49.387 --> 00:19:51.349
 And that's when Marion's
 
 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:52.890
 career as a partisan
 
 00:19:52.990 --> 00:19:55.031
 guerrilla warrior really started.
 
 00:19:55.092 --> 00:19:56.573
 And he had some initial
 
 00:19:56.633 --> 00:19:59.693
 successes after Gates had
 
 00:19:59.733 --> 00:20:01.655
 his head handed to him at
 
 00:20:01.715 --> 00:20:05.718
 camp in a disastrous battle in the war.
 
 00:20:07.598 --> 00:20:09.299
 Before we get back to the war, I wonder if
 
 00:20:09.826 --> 00:20:12.029
 Was Marion's plantation
 
 00:20:12.309 --> 00:20:14.051
 producing rice or something else?
 
 00:20:14.913 --> 00:20:16.654
 Rice and indigo.
 
 00:20:16.815 --> 00:20:17.596
 Indigo, okay.
 
 00:20:18.257 --> 00:20:19.659
 Which was what most of the
 
 00:20:19.838 --> 00:20:22.782
 Lowcountry plantations produced.
 
 00:20:24.048 --> 00:20:25.348
 Yeah, we're talking with John Ahler,
 
 00:20:25.429 --> 00:20:26.888
 author of The Swamp Fox,
 
 00:20:26.909 --> 00:20:28.509
 How Francis Marion Saved
 
 00:20:28.529 --> 00:20:29.890
 the American Revolution,
 
 00:20:30.289 --> 00:20:32.131
 as well as other books,
 
 00:20:32.451 --> 00:20:34.451
 a couple of true crime
 
 00:20:34.471 --> 00:20:36.553
 books on gangster hunters.
 
 00:20:36.573 --> 00:20:37.173
 I don't know if that's your
 
 00:20:37.212 --> 00:20:38.314
 latest one or if you've done something.
 
 00:20:38.334 --> 00:20:38.433
 It is.
 
 00:20:38.453 --> 00:20:38.574
 It is.
 
 00:20:38.594 --> 00:20:38.854
 It is.
 
 00:20:38.874 --> 00:20:39.433
 Yeah.
 
 00:20:40.054 --> 00:20:42.015
 Very good.
 
 00:20:42.295 --> 00:20:43.655
 And so it's fortuitous for
 
 00:20:43.756 --> 00:20:45.576
 us that you devoted some
 
 00:20:45.596 --> 00:20:46.416
 time to writing about
 
 00:20:46.457 --> 00:20:47.517
 Francis Marion because he
 
 00:20:47.557 --> 00:20:49.357
 really is an interesting character.
 
 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:52.421
 He arrives at Gates's camp,
 
 00:20:52.461 --> 00:20:54.422
 and then Gates sends him off.
 
 00:20:54.461 --> 00:20:57.242
 And then Camden's a debacle
 
 00:20:57.303 --> 00:20:59.344
 for Gates and the Continental Army.
 
 00:21:00.084 --> 00:21:01.045
 And then, as you say,
 
 00:21:01.105 --> 00:21:02.605
 Marion begins to make this
 
 00:21:02.644 --> 00:21:03.665
 name for himself.
 
 00:21:03.726 --> 00:21:05.185
 I think one of the first
 
 00:21:05.205 --> 00:21:06.146
 things he does is actually
 
 00:21:06.965 --> 00:21:07.946
 capture some American
 
 00:21:07.987 --> 00:21:08.826
 prisoners who were being
 
 00:21:09.067 --> 00:21:10.228
 taken down to Charleston.
 
 00:21:10.468 --> 00:21:10.647
 Yes,
 
 00:21:10.709 --> 00:21:12.450
 he captured like a hundred and fifty
 
 00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:14.050
 prisoners who had been,
 
 00:21:14.651 --> 00:21:16.893
 became POWs as a result of
 
 00:21:16.952 --> 00:21:18.513
 the debacle at Camden.
 
 00:21:18.834 --> 00:21:19.753
 They were being held
 
 00:21:20.555 --> 00:21:21.915
 actually on Thomas Sumter's
 
 00:21:21.976 --> 00:21:23.416
 abandoned plantation.
 
 00:21:24.491 --> 00:21:26.733
 And Marion kind of snuck up
 
 00:21:26.834 --> 00:21:28.635
 on them in the middle of the night.
 
 00:21:30.037 --> 00:21:31.057
 It was a short battle.
 
 00:21:31.097 --> 00:21:35.281
 He conquered all the British
 
 00:21:35.521 --> 00:21:38.484
 sentinels and took the
 
 00:21:38.525 --> 00:21:40.165
 hundred and fifty under his control.
 
 00:21:42.243 --> 00:21:43.243
 And interestingly,
 
 00:21:43.384 --> 00:21:45.685
 only three of them joined
 
 00:21:45.726 --> 00:21:47.847
 his military unit.
 
 00:21:47.867 --> 00:21:50.368
 The rest kind of deserted or said,
 
 00:21:52.550 --> 00:21:54.972
 the war is too dangerous.
 
 00:21:55.532 --> 00:21:58.234
 I'll go to Camden and get on a prison ship,
 
 00:21:58.295 --> 00:21:59.996
 you know, or something.
 
 00:22:00.737 --> 00:22:01.457
 It was that bad.
 
 00:22:03.057 --> 00:22:04.199
 yeah but that that's that's
 
 00:22:04.219 --> 00:22:05.220
 what first brought him to
 
 00:22:05.280 --> 00:22:06.821
 attention of I think George
 
 00:22:06.862 --> 00:22:09.084
 Washington even noted noted
 
 00:22:09.144 --> 00:22:10.846
 him in a letter although he
 
 00:22:10.885 --> 00:22:12.028
 misspelled his name yeah
 
 00:22:12.208 --> 00:22:14.809
 yeah it takes a while so
 
 00:22:14.849 --> 00:22:16.913
 yeah and then you know so
 
 00:22:16.932 --> 00:22:17.673
 we've talked a little bit
 
 00:22:17.692 --> 00:22:18.733
 about his relationship with
 
 00:22:18.775 --> 00:22:20.076
 Gates but I wonder then
 
 00:22:20.563 --> 00:22:21.644
 Nathaniel Green,
 
 00:22:21.703 --> 00:22:24.664
 who comes to kind of write things,
 
 00:22:24.845 --> 00:22:25.925
 sees the real value in
 
 00:22:25.965 --> 00:22:27.385
 having someone like Marion.
 
 00:22:27.826 --> 00:22:28.767
 Yes.
 
 00:22:29.366 --> 00:22:31.588
 Green recognized that to be
 
 00:22:31.628 --> 00:22:33.148
 successful in South Carolina,
 
 00:22:33.189 --> 00:22:34.849
 you had to make use of the militia,
 
 00:22:34.890 --> 00:22:35.589
 the partisans.
 
 00:22:36.310 --> 00:22:39.873
 Green was realistic.
 
 00:22:40.353 --> 00:22:41.333
 He understood that the
 
 00:22:41.373 --> 00:22:42.493
 militia were kind of
 
 00:22:43.307 --> 00:22:43.567
 you know,
 
 00:22:43.587 --> 00:22:44.909
 would come and go and you
 
 00:22:44.950 --> 00:22:46.570
 couldn't really control them that much.
 
 00:22:46.611 --> 00:22:47.832
 And they tended to kind of
 
 00:22:47.892 --> 00:22:49.232
 cut and run if they faced
 
 00:22:49.313 --> 00:22:50.413
 the British bayonet.
 
 00:22:50.974 --> 00:22:52.615
 So Green had kind of a low
 
 00:22:52.675 --> 00:22:56.240
 opinion of the militia, but he used them.
 
 00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:59.261
 He recognized they were valuable as,
 
 00:22:59.682 --> 00:23:01.183
 for example, as spies.
 
 00:23:01.483 --> 00:23:02.484
 So Marion was kind of
 
 00:23:03.246 --> 00:23:06.409
 Green's spy in chief in South Carolina.
 
 00:23:06.888 --> 00:23:07.970
 And he could use them to
 
 00:23:08.009 --> 00:23:10.230
 gather supplies and and
 
 00:23:10.270 --> 00:23:11.171
 occasionally make these
 
 00:23:11.211 --> 00:23:13.071
 little hit and run ambushes
 
 00:23:13.712 --> 00:23:15.193
 on the British and Tories,
 
 00:23:15.273 --> 00:23:17.134
 which kind of I call it the
 
 00:23:17.174 --> 00:23:18.615
 death by a thousand cuts.
 
 00:23:18.634 --> 00:23:19.455
 Yeah.
 
 00:23:19.516 --> 00:23:21.817
 Marion inflicted on the on the enemy.
 
 00:23:22.196 --> 00:23:23.998
 So Green and Green had a
 
 00:23:24.038 --> 00:23:25.179
 high opinion of Marion.
 
 00:23:25.199 --> 00:23:25.338
 I mean,
 
 00:23:26.159 --> 00:23:27.480
 whatever he thought about the militia,
 
 00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:28.340
 he had a high opinion of
 
 00:23:28.401 --> 00:23:29.780
 Marion because Marion was
 
 00:23:29.840 --> 00:23:31.541
 originally a continental officer.
 
 00:23:31.602 --> 00:23:33.522
 So they kind of shared that.
 
 00:23:35.023 --> 00:23:38.266
 you know, love of discipline and order.
 
 00:23:38.946 --> 00:23:40.688
 And over time,
 
 00:23:41.407 --> 00:23:44.509
 Sumter receded in Green's
 
 00:23:45.371 --> 00:23:48.393
 orbit and eventually, you know,
 
 00:23:48.492 --> 00:23:49.834
 resigned in a huff over
 
 00:23:49.894 --> 00:23:52.134
 some slight and Marion
 
 00:23:52.174 --> 00:23:53.435
 became essentially Green's
 
 00:23:53.516 --> 00:23:56.057
 number two man in South Carolina.
 
 00:23:57.065 --> 00:23:58.865
 And then Green sends Henry
 
 00:23:58.905 --> 00:24:00.465
 Lee to be part of,
 
 00:24:00.586 --> 00:24:02.247
 to assist Mary in a lot of this.
 
 00:24:02.287 --> 00:24:03.587
 Henry Lee, the late horse Harry.
 
 00:24:03.607 --> 00:24:05.067
 The late horse Henry Lee,
 
 00:24:05.367 --> 00:24:07.128
 the son of Robert E. Lee.
 
 00:24:07.189 --> 00:24:07.368
 I mean,
 
 00:24:07.388 --> 00:24:10.789
 the father of Robert Lee was his son.
 
 00:24:13.090 --> 00:24:14.071
 Lee was a very,
 
 00:24:14.291 --> 00:24:16.772
 kind of an aristocratic young man,
 
 00:24:16.853 --> 00:24:18.113
 much younger than Marian.
 
 00:24:18.573 --> 00:24:19.973
 Marian, I should have mentioned,
 
 00:24:19.993 --> 00:24:20.854
 Marian was forty-eight
 
 00:24:20.874 --> 00:24:22.494
 years old when he embarked on this.
 
 00:24:22.994 --> 00:24:25.156
 partisan career, which was old back then.
 
 00:24:25.916 --> 00:24:28.138
 Most men didn't live much past fifty.
 
 00:24:30.201 --> 00:24:32.762
 So Light Horse Harry Lee, by contrast,
 
 00:24:32.803 --> 00:24:34.163
 was kind of an aristocrat.
 
 00:24:34.183 --> 00:24:35.565
 He had studied law in London.
 
 00:24:35.605 --> 00:24:36.905
 He went to Princeton.
 
 00:24:36.986 --> 00:24:39.067
 He was very close with George Washington.
 
 00:24:39.788 --> 00:24:41.789
 He's the man who coined the phrase,
 
 00:24:41.829 --> 00:24:44.632
 first in war, first in peace,
 
 00:24:44.652 --> 00:24:45.813
 and first in the hearts of
 
 00:24:45.853 --> 00:24:47.054
 his countrymen.
 
 00:24:47.134 --> 00:24:47.454
 Yes.
 
 00:24:48.675 --> 00:24:50.757
 And he was more of a cavalry kind of guy.
 
 00:24:52.397 --> 00:24:53.939
 That's where he got his nickname.
 
 00:24:54.420 --> 00:24:55.640
 But surprisingly,
 
 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:57.401
 although they were kind of opposites,
 
 00:24:57.441 --> 00:24:58.922
 they worked pretty well together.
 
 00:25:00.222 --> 00:25:03.664
 Lee respected Marion and Marion vice versa,
 
 00:25:03.785 --> 00:25:05.685
 even though one was older and one,
 
 00:25:06.405 --> 00:25:07.686
 Lee was I think in his twenties.
 
 00:25:08.387 --> 00:25:10.308
 So they got along pretty
 
 00:25:10.328 --> 00:25:11.169
 well and they did some
 
 00:25:11.209 --> 00:25:13.029
 joint operations and had
 
 00:25:13.049 --> 00:25:14.050
 some real successes.
 
 00:25:15.358 --> 00:25:16.440
 Yeah, it's interesting.
 
 00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:17.559
 We're talking with John Ahler,
 
 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.101
 author of The Swamp Fox,
 
 00:25:19.141 --> 00:25:20.561
 How Francis Marion Saved
 
 00:25:20.582 --> 00:25:22.001
 the American Revolution.
 
 00:25:22.742 --> 00:25:25.824
 And Marion also has some
 
 00:25:26.484 --> 00:25:27.644
 commanders under him,
 
 00:25:27.704 --> 00:25:29.945
 like Peter Horry or Hezekiah Mayhem,
 
 00:25:30.366 --> 00:25:31.247
 and their relationships
 
 00:25:31.287 --> 00:25:32.468
 kind of go up and down, too.
 
 00:25:32.488 --> 00:25:33.627
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:25:33.647 --> 00:25:35.469
 They were there was a lot of rivalry,
 
 00:25:35.528 --> 00:25:38.770
 jealousy between some of his men, Peter
 
 00:25:39.464 --> 00:25:41.146
 It's actually pronounced Ori.
 
 00:25:43.990 --> 00:25:45.290
 And Hezekiah Ma'am.
 
 00:25:45.750 --> 00:25:47.932
 And they were vying for
 
 00:25:49.055 --> 00:25:50.675
 commissions and the like.
 
 00:25:50.736 --> 00:25:52.538
 And one would say,
 
 00:25:52.617 --> 00:25:53.838
 I'm not serving under you.
 
 00:25:53.878 --> 00:25:54.700
 And the other would say, well,
 
 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:55.840
 I'm not serving under you.
 
 00:25:56.301 --> 00:25:58.022
 And Marian was left to kind
 
 00:25:58.042 --> 00:25:59.265
 of mediate between them.
 
 00:25:59.982 --> 00:26:01.163
 really Nathaniel Green
 
 00:26:01.223 --> 00:26:02.744
 should have stepped in and
 
 00:26:02.865 --> 00:26:05.327
 clarified the lines of authority,
 
 00:26:05.367 --> 00:26:09.050
 but he wanted no part of that bickering.
 
 00:26:09.171 --> 00:26:10.491
 So he left it to Marion and
 
 00:26:10.551 --> 00:26:11.813
 Marion kind of took it on
 
 00:26:11.853 --> 00:26:14.536
 the chin from both Mayhem and Horry.
 
 00:26:14.576 --> 00:26:17.018
 Now they eventually made up with Horry,
 
 00:26:17.558 --> 00:26:20.861
 but I think he never did
 
 00:26:20.901 --> 00:26:23.763
 make up with Mayhem.
 
 00:26:24.243 --> 00:26:26.906
 But Mayhem was famous, became famous,
 
 00:26:27.406 --> 00:26:31.170
 in another engagement at Fort Watson.
 
 00:26:32.131 --> 00:26:33.471
 He designs the Mayhem Tower.
 
 00:26:33.672 --> 00:26:35.814
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:26:36.673 --> 00:26:37.914
 Where they built this log
 
 00:26:38.195 --> 00:26:40.196
 machine which rose up above
 
 00:26:40.257 --> 00:26:41.557
 the fort that the British
 
 00:26:41.718 --> 00:26:43.660
 were occupying so that they
 
 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.041
 could shoot down inside the
 
 00:26:46.102 --> 00:26:47.603
 fort and that forced the
 
 00:26:47.643 --> 00:26:49.263
 surrender of the fort,
 
 00:26:49.304 --> 00:26:50.925
 which was actually on top
 
 00:26:50.965 --> 00:26:52.006
 of an Indian mound.
 
 00:26:52.026 --> 00:26:52.446
 Wow.
 
 00:26:54.013 --> 00:26:54.554
 along the river.
 
 00:26:54.574 --> 00:26:55.454
 It's still there today.
 
 00:26:55.494 --> 00:26:57.674
 You can see them out.
 
 00:26:57.796 --> 00:26:58.256
 Interesting.
 
 00:26:58.516 --> 00:27:00.957
 I have a picture of it in my book.
 
 00:27:01.436 --> 00:27:03.696
 Yes, yes, you do.
 
 00:27:03.797 --> 00:27:05.057
 And then he fights against
 
 00:27:05.077 --> 00:27:06.798
 some really interesting
 
 00:27:06.939 --> 00:27:07.858
 British commanders like
 
 00:27:07.898 --> 00:27:10.319
 Tarleton and Benjamin Thompson.
 
 00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:11.059
 I wonder if we could talk a
 
 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:12.759
 little about their responses to him.
 
 00:27:13.760 --> 00:27:14.941
 Bannister Tarleton,
 
 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.602
 whose nickname was the Green Dragoon,
 
 00:27:17.741 --> 00:27:19.923
 was a very flamboyant
 
 00:27:21.218 --> 00:27:24.895
 man from England who came over to lead a
 
 00:27:26.214 --> 00:27:32.135
 provincial cavalry unit in the revolution.
 
 00:27:32.175 --> 00:27:35.517
 He was charismatic, he was a gambler,
 
 00:27:35.616 --> 00:27:38.137
 he was a womanizer, he was a drinker,
 
 00:27:39.337 --> 00:27:40.298
 and he was also,
 
 00:27:40.357 --> 00:27:41.679
 according to the Patriots,
 
 00:27:44.798 --> 00:27:46.180
 a committer of atrocities.
 
 00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:48.140
 There was one particular
 
 00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:51.040
 battle where he was accused of
 
 00:27:51.721 --> 00:27:53.102
 basically letting his men
 
 00:27:53.201 --> 00:27:55.163
 slash the Patriots to death
 
 00:27:55.284 --> 00:27:56.904
 after they hit the white flag.
 
 00:27:56.944 --> 00:28:00.007
 Now that's a somewhat controversial topic.
 
 00:28:00.448 --> 00:28:01.788
 But Tarleton,
 
 00:28:02.987 --> 00:28:04.887
 was sent to capture and kill
 
 00:28:05.048 --> 00:28:07.230
 Marion at one point and chased after him.
 
 00:28:07.309 --> 00:28:08.109
 Never did find him.
 
 00:28:08.529 --> 00:28:10.490
 The two never set eyes on each other.
 
 00:28:11.051 --> 00:28:14.094
 But they came very close and
 
 00:28:14.134 --> 00:28:17.536
 it was Tarleton where the
 
 00:28:17.715 --> 00:28:19.576
 Swamp Fox nickname comes from.
 
 00:28:20.057 --> 00:28:22.838
 When Tarleton finally couldn't catch
 
 00:28:24.538 --> 00:28:25.659
 um right arian he's alleged
 
 00:28:25.699 --> 00:28:27.880
 to have said now all right
 
 00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:28.839
 we're going to call this
 
 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:30.940
 chase off and go after the
 
 00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:32.320
 gamecock who was thomas
 
 00:28:32.381 --> 00:28:34.800
 sumter and it and and as
 
 00:28:34.861 --> 00:28:36.340
 for this old devil the
 
 00:28:36.381 --> 00:28:38.442
 swamp fox you know as for
 
 00:28:38.481 --> 00:28:40.642
 this old swamp box the
 
 00:28:40.682 --> 00:28:41.721
 devil himself couldn't
 
 00:28:41.761 --> 00:28:42.803
 catch him or something like
 
 00:28:42.843 --> 00:28:43.542
 that now I don't think he
 
 00:28:43.563 --> 00:28:45.343
 ever said that but but
 
 00:28:45.623 --> 00:28:47.503
 that's tarleton is credited
 
 00:28:47.523 --> 00:28:49.003
 with giving him the nickname um
 
 00:28:50.644 --> 00:28:54.808
 So Benjamin Thompson comes
 
 00:28:54.888 --> 00:28:57.191
 in right at the very end of
 
 00:28:57.290 --> 00:28:59.393
 the war and he holds the
 
 00:28:59.413 --> 00:29:00.394
 distinction of being the
 
 00:29:00.594 --> 00:29:02.635
 only British or Tory
 
 00:29:02.695 --> 00:29:04.037
 commander to have defeated
 
 00:29:04.317 --> 00:29:05.919
 Marion in a one-on-one
 
 00:29:06.398 --> 00:29:08.161
 battle in which Marion was
 
 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:09.122
 the head commander.
 
 00:29:10.742 --> 00:29:14.384
 an unbeaten record as a commander.
 
 00:29:14.443 --> 00:29:16.125
 I think it was something like .
 
 00:29:16.384 --> 00:29:18.025
 Now some of them were kind
 
 00:29:18.045 --> 00:29:19.025
 of close to draws,
 
 00:29:19.045 --> 00:29:20.566
 but he never lost in
 
 00:29:21.806 --> 00:29:23.747
 twenty-some engagements.
 
 00:29:24.807 --> 00:29:26.307
 He did lose pretty
 
 00:29:26.366 --> 00:29:28.587
 decisively to Benjamin
 
 00:29:29.028 --> 00:29:31.108
 Thompson at a place called
 
 00:29:31.189 --> 00:29:33.169
 Tideman's Plantation,
 
 00:29:34.450 --> 00:29:35.609
 right toward the end of the war.
 
 00:29:35.650 --> 00:29:38.211
 Now Thompson was a Massachusetts boy.
 
 00:29:39.230 --> 00:29:41.094
 um he uh later in life
 
 00:29:41.134 --> 00:29:42.255
 became a physicist an
 
 00:29:42.295 --> 00:29:44.917
 inventor in in england and
 
 00:29:44.938 --> 00:29:46.460
 a member of the royal
 
 00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:48.481
 society of science count
 
 00:29:48.521 --> 00:29:49.563
 rumford there's actually a
 
 00:29:49.623 --> 00:29:51.285
 kind of baking powder named for him
 
 00:29:51.657 --> 00:29:54.539
 Yeah, but he was a true committed Tory.
 
 00:29:55.921 --> 00:29:56.300
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:29:56.401 --> 00:29:57.701
 And to the point where he left,
 
 00:29:57.721 --> 00:29:59.222
 he abandoned his wife and
 
 00:29:59.284 --> 00:30:01.744
 baby early in the war to
 
 00:30:01.785 --> 00:30:03.326
 join the Tory forces.
 
 00:30:04.166 --> 00:30:07.348
 So he commanded a provincial,
 
 00:30:08.210 --> 00:30:09.090
 when I say provincial,
 
 00:30:09.151 --> 00:30:10.391
 it's part of the British Army.
 
 00:30:12.292 --> 00:30:14.694
 cavalry unit and he defeated
 
 00:30:14.775 --> 00:30:17.517
 Marion at this battle.
 
 00:30:17.616 --> 00:30:18.857
 It wasn't that consequential
 
 00:30:18.917 --> 00:30:20.119
 a battle at that time.
 
 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.521
 The war was largely had been
 
 00:30:22.582 --> 00:30:24.923
 won by the Patriots in the South.
 
 00:30:25.304 --> 00:30:28.767
 Thompson was out there mainly foraging for
 
 00:30:29.346 --> 00:30:31.488
 food and supplies to bring
 
 00:30:31.528 --> 00:30:32.669
 back to Charleston where
 
 00:30:32.709 --> 00:30:34.029
 the British were still at.
 
 00:30:34.089 --> 00:30:34.730
 That's right.
 
 00:30:34.810 --> 00:30:36.111
 And getting ready to leave,
 
 00:30:36.151 --> 00:30:38.472
 but they weren't quite yet,
 
 00:30:38.492 --> 00:30:39.512
 but they still had to eat.
 
 00:30:40.854 --> 00:30:42.875
 It's all after Yorktown,
 
 00:30:43.016 --> 00:30:44.476
 so the war isn't really
 
 00:30:44.596 --> 00:30:45.416
 over and the British are
 
 00:30:45.436 --> 00:30:47.238
 holding on to Charleston.
 
 00:30:47.278 --> 00:30:48.699
 Yorktown is October of,
 
 00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:51.161
 the British don't leave
 
 00:30:51.221 --> 00:30:53.761
 Charleston until December of,
 
 00:30:53.842 --> 00:30:56.544
 so there was a whole year in there where
 
 00:30:57.361 --> 00:30:59.083
 There weren't any major battles,
 
 00:30:59.143 --> 00:31:00.544
 but there were skirmishes
 
 00:31:00.763 --> 00:31:03.807
 and foraging and that sort of thing.
 
 00:31:03.826 --> 00:31:04.527
 John Lawrence,
 
 00:31:04.547 --> 00:31:06.409
 the famous character from
 
 00:31:06.449 --> 00:31:07.890
 the Hamilton musical,
 
 00:31:08.691 --> 00:31:10.333
 lost his life in one of
 
 00:31:10.373 --> 00:31:12.394
 those foraging engagements.
 
 00:31:12.875 --> 00:31:14.175
 He was one of the last
 
 00:31:14.195 --> 00:31:15.596
 people to die in the war.
 
 00:31:15.656 --> 00:31:16.798
 Kind of a needless death.
 
 00:31:17.818 --> 00:31:19.079
 But Lawrence was kind of a...
 
 00:31:20.101 --> 00:31:23.907
 had kind of a death wish in a way.
 
 00:31:23.988 --> 00:31:26.352
 So he was an interesting character.
 
 00:31:26.772 --> 00:31:28.296
 Yes, and we were talking,
 
 00:31:28.355 --> 00:31:29.257
 someone should write a book
 
 00:31:29.277 --> 00:31:30.199
 about John Lawrence,
 
 00:31:31.423 --> 00:31:31.544
 Yeah,
 
 00:31:31.605 --> 00:31:37.646
 he advocated arming slaves to help
 
 00:31:37.666 --> 00:31:39.587
 the South Carolinians repel
 
 00:31:39.627 --> 00:31:42.729
 the British and the South
 
 00:31:42.749 --> 00:31:44.970
 Carolina Congress would
 
 00:31:45.009 --> 00:31:45.871
 have none of that.
 
 00:31:47.151 --> 00:31:48.271
 The last thing they wanted
 
 00:31:48.311 --> 00:31:51.113
 was to have slaves with
 
 00:31:51.413 --> 00:31:52.313
 weapons in their hands
 
 00:31:52.333 --> 00:31:52.953
 because they were afraid
 
 00:31:52.993 --> 00:31:54.614
 they would turn them on them.
 
 00:31:56.234 --> 00:31:57.496
 But Lawrence was an
 
 00:31:57.576 --> 00:31:59.037
 abolitionist before
 
 00:31:59.257 --> 00:32:01.557
 abolitionism was a thing, you know.
 
 00:32:01.637 --> 00:32:02.919
 Yeah, it's amazing.
 
 00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:05.181
 Jonathan reminds us that the
 
 00:32:05.280 --> 00:32:06.902
 Rumford Chair of Science at
 
 00:32:06.942 --> 00:32:09.403
 Harvard was established by Count Rumford,
 
 00:32:09.603 --> 00:32:11.724
 and he also apparently had
 
 00:32:11.744 --> 00:32:13.766
 an affair with Isaiah Thomas's wife.
 
 00:32:14.326 --> 00:32:17.127
 This is an interesting point.
 
 00:32:18.009 --> 00:32:20.529
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
 00:32:20.569 --> 00:32:22.590
 Well, Thompson, for people who don't know,
 
 00:32:22.671 --> 00:32:24.932
 Thompson became Count Rumford.
 
 00:32:25.721 --> 00:32:26.821
 I'm Count Rumford.
 
 00:32:27.522 --> 00:32:29.704
 And so we're talking with John Alder,
 
 00:32:29.744 --> 00:32:30.945
 author of The Swamp Fox,
 
 00:32:30.986 --> 00:32:32.446
 How Francis Marion Saved
 
 00:32:32.487 --> 00:32:33.847
 the American Revolution.
 
 00:32:33.928 --> 00:32:35.249
 And having given you that
 
 00:32:35.308 --> 00:32:37.371
 titillating gossip about Count Rumford,
 
 00:32:37.391 --> 00:32:37.971
 why don't we talk about
 
 00:32:38.010 --> 00:32:39.952
 Francis Marion's personal life?
 
 00:32:39.972 --> 00:32:41.273
 Because he gets married kind
 
 00:32:41.294 --> 00:32:42.115
 of late in life.
 
 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:44.582
 Yeah, he was a bachelor his whole life.
 
 00:32:46.282 --> 00:32:46.803
 Physically,
 
 00:32:46.863 --> 00:32:51.243
 he was not that impressive or
 
 00:32:51.325 --> 00:32:51.984
 handsome or anything.
 
 00:32:52.005 --> 00:32:53.925
 He was a very short, maybe about, I'd say,
 
 00:32:53.986 --> 00:32:55.425
 five-two, five-three,
 
 00:32:55.986 --> 00:32:58.907
 maybe a hundred and twenty pounds max.
 
 00:33:00.327 --> 00:33:02.709
 Kind of the physique of a
 
 00:33:02.749 --> 00:33:04.650
 thoroughbred jockey, I would say.
 
 00:33:05.926 --> 00:33:07.989
 He had a kind of a hook nose.
 
 00:33:08.409 --> 00:33:09.529
 He walked with a limp ever
 
 00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:11.490
 since that accident,
 
 00:33:11.931 --> 00:33:13.031
 jumping out of the window.
 
 00:33:13.832 --> 00:33:16.513
 And so he was a bachelor his
 
 00:33:16.534 --> 00:33:18.434
 entire life until after the
 
 00:33:18.474 --> 00:33:19.915
 war when he was, I think,
 
 00:33:19.976 --> 00:33:21.176
 fifty-two years old.
 
 00:33:21.237 --> 00:33:23.077
 He marries his first cousin
 
 00:33:23.917 --> 00:33:25.058
 in South Carolina who was
 
 00:33:25.098 --> 00:33:27.260
 forty-nine at the time.
 
 00:33:27.300 --> 00:33:29.321
 So they obviously didn't have any children,
 
 00:33:29.362 --> 00:33:30.623
 but they each adopted.
 
 00:33:30.682 --> 00:33:33.084
 She adopted a girl and he adopted a boy.
 
 00:33:35.075 --> 00:33:37.736
 And he kind of lived out his
 
 00:33:37.855 --> 00:33:39.616
 life on a plantation in
 
 00:33:39.936 --> 00:33:42.397
 South Carolina with his with his wife.
 
 00:33:43.718 --> 00:33:45.699
 He dies in seventeen ninety
 
 00:33:45.798 --> 00:33:47.618
 nine at the age of sixty three,
 
 00:33:47.659 --> 00:33:49.279
 which was a fairly advanced
 
 00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:50.500
 age in those days.
 
 00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:51.721
 Yeah,
 
 00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:52.840
 particularly for someone who had been
 
 00:33:52.881 --> 00:33:54.701
 through this living in the
 
 00:33:54.721 --> 00:33:55.922
 swamp for all those years.
 
 00:33:57.042 --> 00:33:58.242
 Yeah, he had it was a harsh,
 
 00:33:58.623 --> 00:34:00.864
 harsh life during during the war.
 
 00:34:01.789 --> 00:34:03.791
 something people don't really realize,
 
 00:34:03.971 --> 00:34:05.374
 although I think New
 
 00:34:05.433 --> 00:34:07.055
 Jerseyans contest this,
 
 00:34:08.155 --> 00:34:08.976
 is that there were more
 
 00:34:09.117 --> 00:34:10.757
 engagements in South
 
 00:34:10.778 --> 00:34:11.960
 Carolina during the war
 
 00:34:11.980 --> 00:34:14.842
 than any other colony.
 
 00:34:14.942 --> 00:34:16.684
 If you count all the little skirmishes,
 
 00:34:16.724 --> 00:34:18.284
 there were a lot of little skirmishes,
 
 00:34:18.344 --> 00:34:19.746
 but if you count them all up,
 
 00:34:20.867 --> 00:34:22.769
 South Carolina was number one.
 
 00:34:22.809 --> 00:34:23.990
 Another fact about Marion,
 
 00:34:25.942 --> 00:34:27.083
 And somebody pointed this
 
 00:34:27.163 --> 00:34:30.083
 out in a footnote in my book.
 
 00:34:30.103 --> 00:34:31.184
 They took exception after
 
 00:34:31.204 --> 00:34:32.085
 the book was published.
 
 00:34:32.126 --> 00:34:36.347
 But I said that Marion is
 
 00:34:36.427 --> 00:34:37.789
 second only to George
 
 00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:40.891
 Washington in the number of counties,
 
 00:34:41.510 --> 00:34:42.210
 cities,
 
 00:34:43.472 --> 00:34:45.753
 streets and the like named after
 
 00:34:45.793 --> 00:34:49.775
 him among Revolutionary War figures.
 
 00:34:49.815 --> 00:34:51.737
 Now, I should have said among American
 
 00:34:52.429 --> 00:34:54.068
 Revolutionary War figures
 
 00:34:54.088 --> 00:34:55.230
 because somebody pointed out, well,
 
 00:34:55.269 --> 00:34:57.329
 technically Lafayette is second,
 
 00:34:57.550 --> 00:34:59.451
 you know.
 
 00:34:59.471 --> 00:35:00.751
 But yeah,
 
 00:35:00.911 --> 00:35:03.891
 so Marion was quite famous during
 
 00:35:03.911 --> 00:35:05.672
 the war and in that early
 
 00:35:05.733 --> 00:35:08.413
 period after the war when
 
 00:35:08.452 --> 00:35:09.813
 Parson Williams wrote his book.
 
 00:35:09.853 --> 00:35:11.173
 But then he kind of lapsed
 
 00:35:11.293 --> 00:35:14.375
 into obscurity for many, many years,
 
 00:35:14.414 --> 00:35:16.815
 decades until the Walt Disney series.
 
 00:35:17.715 --> 00:35:20.356
 Why do you suppose that was,
 
 00:35:20.396 --> 00:35:21.056
 that he lapses?
 
 00:35:22.644 --> 00:35:23.795
 I think it's because
 
 00:35:25.728 --> 00:35:27.789
 He wasn't really, with one exception,
 
 00:35:27.929 --> 00:35:28.929
 Utah Springs.
 
 00:35:29.588 --> 00:35:31.650
 He wasn't in any of the major,
 
 00:35:31.769 --> 00:35:33.809
 major battles of the Revolution,
 
 00:35:33.849 --> 00:35:35.371
 either in the North or the South.
 
 00:35:35.411 --> 00:35:37.130
 He never set foot in the
 
 00:35:37.190 --> 00:35:38.030
 North in his life.
 
 00:35:39.311 --> 00:35:42.393
 And he was not at Kings Mountain.
 
 00:35:43.373 --> 00:35:44.733
 He was not at Cowpens.
 
 00:35:44.773 --> 00:35:46.873
 He was not at Guilford Courthouse.
 
 00:35:47.634 --> 00:35:49.655
 They were these smaller
 
 00:35:49.954 --> 00:35:52.275
 engagements until he gets to Utah Springs,
 
 00:35:52.335 --> 00:35:54.115
 which was the last major battle.
 
 00:35:54.755 --> 00:35:56.619
 of the war in the south and
 
 00:35:57.081 --> 00:35:58.643
 he distinguished himself
 
 00:35:58.684 --> 00:36:00.728
 there but um and I think
 
 00:36:00.768 --> 00:36:02.713
 it's also you know he was uh
 
 00:36:03.471 --> 00:36:04.871
 unassuming character you
 
 00:36:04.891 --> 00:36:06.253
 know he wasn't he was not
 
 00:36:06.552 --> 00:36:07.833
 one to toot his own horn
 
 00:36:07.893 --> 00:36:09.856
 much yeah so uh thomas
 
 00:36:09.896 --> 00:36:11.197
 sumter was a much more
 
 00:36:11.916 --> 00:36:13.398
 brash flamboyant character
 
 00:36:13.438 --> 00:36:14.619
 and it's you know they had
 
 00:36:14.659 --> 00:36:16.860
 the fort named after yeah
 
 00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:17.922
 it's a shot it started the
 
 00:36:17.942 --> 00:36:21.563
 civil war um so yeah I I I
 
 00:36:21.583 --> 00:36:22.784
 give credit to disney for
 
 00:36:22.844 --> 00:36:25.746
 plucking uh marion out of
 
 00:36:25.927 --> 00:36:27.768
 obscurity and and turning
 
 00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:28.909
 him into a folk here yeah
 
 00:36:30.126 --> 00:36:30.525
 Good point.
 
 00:36:30.746 --> 00:36:32.166
 We've been talking with John Ahler,
 
 00:36:32.186 --> 00:36:33.867
 who was the author of The Swamp Fox,
 
 00:36:33.907 --> 00:36:35.347
 How Francis Marion Saved
 
 00:36:35.367 --> 00:36:36.608
 the American Revolution,
 
 00:36:37.248 --> 00:36:39.307
 a tremendous biography of Marion,
 
 00:36:39.327 --> 00:36:40.148
 as well as a great book
 
 00:36:40.188 --> 00:36:42.188
 about the war in South Carolina,
 
 00:36:42.228 --> 00:36:43.168
 which really gives us a
 
 00:36:43.608 --> 00:36:45.369
 very clear picture of it
 
 00:36:45.630 --> 00:36:47.050
 and of the other commanders,
 
 00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:48.230
 the other personalities.
 
 00:36:48.269 --> 00:36:49.811
 So it's I really want to
 
 00:36:49.831 --> 00:36:50.731
 thank you for writing the
 
 00:36:50.771 --> 00:36:51.610
 book and thank you for
 
 00:36:51.670 --> 00:36:52.570
 joining us this morning.
 
 00:36:52.590 --> 00:36:54.351
 Thank you.
 
 00:36:54.371 --> 00:36:55.112
 I wonder if there's anything
 
 00:36:55.172 --> 00:36:56.012
 else we should talk about
 
 00:36:56.032 --> 00:36:59.432
 as far as Marion or your other books or
 
 00:37:01.445 --> 00:37:03.887
 Um, well, uh, as I said, I,
 
 00:37:04.288 --> 00:37:05.128
 maybe someday I'll do
 
 00:37:05.168 --> 00:37:06.590
 another Revolutionary War book.
 
 00:37:06.929 --> 00:37:08.490
 Um, but, uh,
 
 00:37:08.510 --> 00:37:10.932
 lately I've been into True Crime and, and,
 
 00:37:11.072 --> 00:37:14.034
 um, my next, my next book might,
 
 00:37:14.235 --> 00:37:16.235
 might be a golf themed book.
 
 00:37:16.255 --> 00:37:16.476
 Okay.
 
 00:37:16.496 --> 00:37:18.717
 Very good.
 
 00:37:18.777 --> 00:37:20.858
 Very good.
 
 00:37:20.878 --> 00:37:22.579
 You're still golfing, I guess.
 
 00:37:22.641 --> 00:37:22.940
 Yes.
 
 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:25.802
 Uh, not as well as I would like, but, uh,
 
 00:37:25.882 --> 00:37:26.202
 I try.
 
 00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:27.581
 Well,
 
 00:37:27.601 --> 00:37:29.262
 what golfer ever says he is golfing
 
 00:37:29.322 --> 00:37:31.425
 as well as he likes?
 
 00:37:31.585 --> 00:37:32.487
 Even Tiger Woods, right?
 
 00:37:32.507 --> 00:37:34.771
 Yeah.
 
 00:37:34.811 --> 00:37:35.931
 So thank you so much, John.
 
 00:37:35.952 --> 00:37:37.114
 It's been great talking to you.
 
 00:37:37.134 --> 00:37:39.416
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:37:39.557 --> 00:37:40.398
 our producer,
 
 00:37:40.539 --> 00:37:41.840
 the executive director of Rev.
 
 00:37:41.860 --> 00:37:42.481
 Two Fifty,
 
 00:37:42.521 --> 00:37:44.143
 who's been our man behind the curtain.
 
 00:37:44.724 --> 00:37:46.226
 And our listeners around the
 
 00:37:46.246 --> 00:37:47.766
 world who tune in every week,
 
 00:37:47.786 --> 00:37:48.586
 we thank folks.
 
 00:37:48.626 --> 00:37:49.347
 And if you're in one of
 
 00:37:49.387 --> 00:37:51.027
 these places and want some
 
 00:37:51.068 --> 00:37:53.068
 of our Revolution Two-Fifty swag,
 
 00:37:53.088 --> 00:37:54.329
 send Jonathan an email,
 
 00:37:54.369 --> 00:37:57.231
 jlane at revolution two five O dot org.
 
 00:37:58.032 --> 00:37:59.152
 And this week I want to
 
 00:37:59.192 --> 00:38:00.713
 thank listeners in Kelvin
 
 00:38:00.753 --> 00:38:02.974
 Grove in Queensland, Australia,
 
 00:38:03.853 --> 00:38:07.056
 and in Florida and Pensacola and Lutz,
 
 00:38:07.135 --> 00:38:08.856
 Kalamazoo, Michigan and Detroit,
 
 00:38:08.896 --> 00:38:09.297
 Michigan.
 
 00:38:09.815 --> 00:38:13.021
 York in Yorkshire, New York in New York,
 
 00:38:13.201 --> 00:38:14.643
 and Marion, Iowa.
 
 00:38:15.164 --> 00:38:16.907
 And all places between and
 
 00:38:16.927 --> 00:38:18.250
 beyond now will be piped
 
 00:38:18.351 --> 00:38:19.532
 out on the road to Boston.