Fighting for Philadelphia with Michael C. Harris

. Why did Philadelphia matter so deeply to both the British and the Continental Army? How did strategy, logistics, and personalities shape the campaign that culminated in Brandywine, Germantown, and the winter at Valley Forge? And what did the occupation of the revolutionary capital mean for civilians caught between armies?  Michael C. Harris tells this story in his new book, Fighting for Philadelphia:  Forts Mercer and Mifflin, the Battle of Whitemarsh, and the Road to Valley Forge.  This campaign around the new country's largest city, in the marshes, woods, and fields of Pennsylvania and New Jersey was a critical turning point testing the resilience of the American people and military and reshaping the war's momentum.  .

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone.
 
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 Welcome to the Revolution Two-Fifty
 
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 podcast.
 
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 I'm Bob Ellison.
 
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 I chair the Rev Two-Fifty Advisory Group.
 
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 We are a consortium of about seventy-five
 
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 organizations in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of the beginnings of
 
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 American independence.
 
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 And our guest today is Michael C. Harris.
 
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 And Michael Harris is a prolific author,
 
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 and he's been focusing for the last number
 
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 of years on the Philadelphia campaign.
 
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 His book on Brandywine,
 
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 A Military History of the Battle that Lost
 
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 Philadelphia but Saved the Revolution,
 
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 received the American Revolution
 
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 Roundtable of Richmond's Book Award.
 
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 And his book on Germantowns,
 
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 A Military History of the Battle for
 
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 Philadelphia,
 
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 And now he has followed that up with
 
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 fighting for Philadelphia,
 
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 Forts Mercer and Mifflin,
 
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 the Battle of White Marsh,
 
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 and the road to Valley Forge.
 
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 So, Mike, thanks so much for joining us.
 
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 Oh, thank you for having me.
 
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 I appreciate it.
 
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 And so let me ask,
 
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 this is kind of an ambitious trilogy on
 
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 an interesting campaign.
 
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 What gave you the idea to focus so
 
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 closely on this particular episode and
 
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 looking at these three?
 
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 Well,
 
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 the new book has a number of battles,
 
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 but...
 
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 Randy Wine, Germantown, and now Mercer,
 
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 Mifflin, White Marsh, and Valley Forge.
 
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 Well,
 
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 I didn't embark on it originally with the
 
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 intent of writing a trilogy.
 
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 That sort of evolved over time.
 
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 But I used to work at Brandywine
 
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 Battlefield.
 
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 I worked for the state there from two
 
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 thousand five to two thousand nine.
 
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 And when I started there, I really wasn't,
 
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 I'll be honest,
 
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 a Revolutionary War expert.
 
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 My background prior to that had been Civil
 
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 War history.
 
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 And so I basically started having to work
 
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 there.
 
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 I had to figure it all out.
 
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 There really weren't great research files
 
 00:01:51.882 --> 00:01:55.344
 there when I started for any number of
 
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 reasons.
 
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 So I basically was just starting from
 
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 scratch, teaching myself, figuring it out.
 
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 Responding to research questions were
 
 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:05.102
 people that contacted the park.
 
 00:02:05.141 --> 00:02:07.224
 And then when I got laid off from
 
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 there in two thousand nine,
 
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 I had all this research that I had
 
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 done and I was in the middle of
 
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 finishing up a master's degree.
 
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 And when I finished my master's,
 
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 I had tons of stuff I never used
 
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 in my master's thesis about Brandywine.
 
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 And my wife, who likely regrets it now,
 
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 said,
 
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 you should see if somebody would publish
 
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 the book.
 
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 And that led to the Brandywine book.
 
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 OK.
 
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 Not knowing what that would lead to or
 
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 what that meant or because I had never
 
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 written,
 
 00:02:38.092 --> 00:02:39.832
 but not a book length thing before.
 
 00:02:40.973 --> 00:02:44.114
 And Brandywine was crazy successful,
 
 00:02:44.153 --> 00:02:45.314
 like beyond my wildest.
 
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 It's still my bestseller after all these
 
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 years.
 
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 And I was about a year in the
 
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 promote in that book.
 
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 not intending to write another one.
 
 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:56.360
 Like that wasn't the original intent.
 
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 Yeah.
 
 00:02:57.521 --> 00:02:58.962
 And people were asking me, you know,
 
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 when I went out to do talks,
 
 00:03:00.163 --> 00:03:00.625
 you know,
 
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 what are you going to do next?
 
 00:03:01.425 --> 00:03:02.006
 What are you going to do?
 
 00:03:02.026 --> 00:03:02.306
 And I was like,
 
 00:03:02.325 --> 00:03:03.486
 I wasn't really thinking about it.
 
 00:03:04.388 --> 00:03:05.989
 And then again, about a year in,
 
 00:03:06.068 --> 00:03:07.509
 I went back into my files and I
 
 00:03:07.610 --> 00:03:10.192
 had a lot of stuff that in my
 
 00:03:10.252 --> 00:03:12.093
 files for post Brandywine.
 
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 Right.
 
 00:03:12.753 --> 00:03:14.496
 I would continue the story basically.
 
 00:03:14.515 --> 00:03:14.596
 Yeah.
 
 00:03:15.616 --> 00:03:17.717
 And that led me to writing Germantown.
 
 00:03:17.798 --> 00:03:19.919
 But I knew when I wrote Germantown that,
 
 00:03:20.453 --> 00:03:21.753
 I would always write the third book.
 
 00:03:21.774 --> 00:03:21.933
 Okay.
 
 00:03:22.715 --> 00:03:26.317
 Because the third book almost takes me
 
 00:03:26.356 --> 00:03:27.097
 back to my roots.
 
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 I grew up a mile from Fort Mercer.
 
 00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:32.200
 I did my undergraduate thesis on coastal
 
 00:03:32.221 --> 00:03:32.961
 defense forts.
 
 00:03:32.980 --> 00:03:34.942
 So forts were always part of my life.
 
 00:03:36.623 --> 00:03:38.245
 But I knew I couldn't write the third
 
 00:03:38.264 --> 00:03:39.786
 book without doing the one in the middle
 
 00:03:39.846 --> 00:03:41.507
 because I wanted to tell the story
 
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 chronologically.
 
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 Right, right.
 
 00:03:43.367 --> 00:03:45.028
 So I knew when I decided to embark
 
 00:03:45.068 --> 00:03:47.411
 on Germantown that I would definitely
 
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 write the third one.
 
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 It was just a matter of time of
 
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 getting to it.
 
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 Right, right, right.
 
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 So this book begins,
 
 00:03:53.492 --> 00:03:56.075
 the British are occupying Philadelphia,
 
 00:03:56.276 --> 00:03:58.337
 but they don't control the Delaware River,
 
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 and that's really critical to them to
 
 00:04:00.539 --> 00:04:01.760
 resupply and so on.
 
 00:04:01.820 --> 00:04:05.723
 So what are the Americans doing to fortify
 
 00:04:05.805 --> 00:04:07.145
 the Delaware?
 
 00:04:07.545 --> 00:04:09.587
 Okay, well, that's a complicated question.
 
 00:04:11.248 --> 00:04:12.430
 You've answered it in the book.
 
 00:04:12.730 --> 00:04:13.411
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
 
 00:04:16.017 --> 00:04:17.959
 the river becomes huge.
 
 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:20.201
 The Delaware river becomes huge because
 
 00:04:21.942 --> 00:04:25.225
 Washington is basically bottling up the
 
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 city of Philadelphia,
 
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 almost like he did around Boston in late
 
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 seventy five.
 
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 And he basically wants to try and starve
 
 00:04:34.153 --> 00:04:34.552
 them out.
 
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 He had even ordered the grinding stones
 
 00:04:37.615 --> 00:04:39.197
 removed from the grist mills in the area
 
 00:04:39.797 --> 00:04:42.399
 so they couldn't grind grain.
 
 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:45.000
 But part of that strategy was to prevent
 
 00:04:45.021 --> 00:04:45.622
 the British from
 
 00:04:46.069 --> 00:04:48.651
 fleet and shipping from getting to the
 
 00:04:48.692 --> 00:04:48.992
 city.
 
 00:04:49.754 --> 00:04:52.257
 So they had a series of obstructions and
 
 00:04:52.276 --> 00:04:54.178
 eventually forts that they're going to
 
 00:04:54.218 --> 00:04:56.221
 build to prevent that.
 
 00:04:58.684 --> 00:04:59.865
 As early as the summer of
 
 00:05:05.391 --> 00:05:07.533
 um which are basically if you could
 
 00:05:07.572 --> 00:05:10.173
 imagine a log cabin without its roof with
 
 00:05:10.432 --> 00:05:13.053
 iron spikes sticking out of them and then
 
 00:05:13.074 --> 00:05:14.434
 they would float them out into the river
 
 00:05:14.514 --> 00:05:16.735
 fill them with stone these bins and sink
 
 00:05:16.754 --> 00:05:18.115
 them in the river and then chain them
 
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 together and there was rows of these in
 
 00:05:20.495 --> 00:05:22.355
 the river and they did they would keep
 
 00:05:22.396 --> 00:05:24.516
 ships from moving up river and they were
 
 00:05:24.536 --> 00:05:26.197
 in spots in the river and then they
 
 00:05:26.257 --> 00:05:29.418
 built forts to protect those lines of
 
 00:05:29.458 --> 00:05:31.418
 obstructions um
 
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 Three forts eventually, Fort Billingsport,
 
 00:05:34.555 --> 00:05:36.036
 Fort Mercer and Fort Mifflin.
 
 00:05:36.617 --> 00:05:39.160
 And so from about the first week of
 
 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:39.819
 October,
 
 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:42.182
 seventeen seventy seven through the middle
 
 00:05:42.201 --> 00:05:42.862
 of November.
 
 00:05:44.182 --> 00:05:46.324
 The British are doing a series of
 
 00:05:46.403 --> 00:05:49.406
 operations to eliminate those forts so
 
 00:05:49.425 --> 00:05:51.427
 they can start to remove the obstructions
 
 00:05:51.447 --> 00:05:53.149
 and get their shipping into Philadelphia.
 
 00:05:53.809 --> 00:05:55.850
 And that's what takes up most of the
 
 00:05:55.891 --> 00:05:57.812
 campaign after the Battle of Germantown.
 
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 Hmm.
 
 00:05:59.411 --> 00:06:00.992
 It's trying to get at the building these
 
 00:06:01.072 --> 00:06:02.473
 forts and then the British trying to get
 
 00:06:02.512 --> 00:06:03.452
 at these forts.
 
 00:06:03.754 --> 00:06:04.053
 Yeah.
 
 00:06:05.154 --> 00:06:05.314
 Yeah.
 
 00:06:05.355 --> 00:06:06.935
 So who is who is manning the forts?
 
 00:06:08.418 --> 00:06:09.978
 Oh, it depends on which fort.
 
 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:12.321
 Why don't we start with Billingsport?
 
 00:06:12.781 --> 00:06:13.942
 Yeah, so Billingsport,
 
 00:06:14.141 --> 00:06:15.903
 if you're not familiar with the area
 
 00:06:15.923 --> 00:06:17.043
 around Philadelphia,
 
 00:06:17.783 --> 00:06:20.326
 is the farthest south and it's on the
 
 00:06:20.386 --> 00:06:22.867
 New Jersey shoreline.
 
 00:06:23.107 --> 00:06:25.588
 Just slightly north of modern Chester,
 
 00:06:25.629 --> 00:06:26.269
 Pennsylvania,
 
 00:06:26.329 --> 00:06:27.329
 for those of you that might know the
 
 00:06:27.389 --> 00:06:28.130
 area a little bit.
 
 00:06:28.831 --> 00:06:29.791
 It was an earthwork.
 
 00:06:30.992 --> 00:06:33.112
 basically an enlarged readout.
 
 00:06:34.512 --> 00:06:36.853
 And at the time it's attacked,
 
 00:06:36.954 --> 00:06:39.375
 it's manned by Pennsylvania militiamen,
 
 00:06:39.935 --> 00:06:41.194
 even though it's in New Jersey,
 
 00:06:41.755 --> 00:06:43.915
 because the New Jersey militiamen refused
 
 00:06:43.956 --> 00:06:45.177
 to defend it.
 
 00:06:45.257 --> 00:06:45.317
 Wow.
 
 00:06:45.336 --> 00:06:49.137
 Why is that?
 
 00:06:49.158 --> 00:06:49.978
 Why is that?
 
 00:06:49.997 --> 00:06:51.499
 They just did not want to be in
 
 00:06:51.538 --> 00:06:51.658
 it.
 
 00:06:51.678 --> 00:06:52.499
 They didn't think it was...
 
 00:06:54.997 --> 00:06:56.738
 They didn't see it ending well and they
 
 00:06:56.778 --> 00:06:58.139
 weren't necessarily wrong about that.
 
 00:06:58.160 --> 00:06:58.600
 That's right.
 
 00:06:58.620 --> 00:06:58.699
 Yeah.
 
 00:06:59.141 --> 00:07:02.101
 But they forced Pennsylvania to send
 
 00:07:02.161 --> 00:07:05.704
 troops over there to Manning because the
 
 00:07:05.744 --> 00:07:07.665
 Jerseyans abandoned it basically.
 
 00:07:07.685 --> 00:07:09.105
 Um,
 
 00:07:09.206 --> 00:07:11.007
 and so when the fight develops for
 
 00:07:11.047 --> 00:07:12.367
 Billingsport, um,
 
 00:07:13.327 --> 00:07:14.449
 on October second,
 
 00:07:15.290 --> 00:07:17.634
 New Jersey militiamen are outside of it
 
 00:07:17.855 --> 00:07:19.817
 trying to defend the road intersection.
 
 00:07:19.898 --> 00:07:22.401
 So there was a main north-south road
 
 00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:24.303
 running through New Jersey and then a
 
 00:07:24.363 --> 00:07:26.166
 branch road that split off of it that
 
 00:07:26.206 --> 00:07:26.867
 led to the fort.
 
 00:07:28.062 --> 00:07:29.324
 And so they're trying to defend this
 
 00:07:29.343 --> 00:07:29.863
 intersection.
 
 00:07:29.903 --> 00:07:31.745
 The two British regiments they send over
 
 00:07:31.764 --> 00:07:34.386
 there fairly easily drive them back.
 
 00:07:34.425 --> 00:07:34.586
 I mean,
 
 00:07:34.627 --> 00:07:36.307
 they're militia up against regulars.
 
 00:07:36.767 --> 00:07:37.067
 Yeah.
 
 00:07:37.148 --> 00:07:39.408
 And then that allows these two British
 
 00:07:39.449 --> 00:07:41.689
 regiments to split off to the left or
 
 00:07:41.730 --> 00:07:44.451
 the west and assault Billingsport.
 
 00:07:46.232 --> 00:07:47.692
 And they're going to pretty easily handle
 
 00:07:47.713 --> 00:07:49.093
 that because the Pennsylvania militia
 
 00:07:49.113 --> 00:07:51.875
 basically gets in rowboats and escapes
 
 00:07:51.915 --> 00:07:54.697
 back to Fort Mifflin because, yeah,
 
 00:07:54.716 --> 00:07:56.057
 they're outnumbered and they're up against
 
 00:07:56.117 --> 00:07:57.038
 British regulars.
 
 00:07:57.257 --> 00:07:57.338
 Wow.
 
 00:07:58.074 --> 00:07:59.696
 And then you raise a question, you know,
 
 00:07:59.716 --> 00:08:02.216
 the British could have after this,
 
 00:08:02.257 --> 00:08:03.576
 the next step would have been go to
 
 00:08:03.617 --> 00:08:05.858
 Fort Mercer, but they don't.
 
 00:08:06.137 --> 00:08:07.017
 Any idea why?
 
 00:08:07.557 --> 00:08:08.778
 What's going on with the British?
 
 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:09.399
 I mean,
 
 00:08:09.478 --> 00:08:10.800
 I don't have a good answer for that
 
 00:08:10.819 --> 00:08:13.281
 because it's kind of not really addressed
 
 00:08:13.321 --> 00:08:15.321
 in the primary documents that I could
 
 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:17.021
 find, at least to this date.
 
 00:08:17.682 --> 00:08:18.423
 Yeah.
 
 00:08:18.442 --> 00:08:21.204
 My best guess is that the officer in
 
 00:08:21.245 --> 00:08:22.927
 charge of the operation is just a
 
 00:08:22.966 --> 00:08:25.348
 lieutenant colonel, Thomas Sterling,
 
 00:08:25.988 --> 00:08:27.430
 who's the commander of the Forty Second
 
 00:08:27.471 --> 00:08:28.151
 Highlanders.
 
 00:08:29.351 --> 00:08:32.394
 There's no general officer over there.
 
 00:08:32.434 --> 00:08:33.556
 He's the highest ranking guy.
 
 00:08:34.255 --> 00:08:35.717
 And his orders were to take out
 
 00:08:35.758 --> 00:08:37.119
 Billingsport and come back.
 
 00:08:38.131 --> 00:08:38.971
 He's following orders.
 
 00:08:41.393 --> 00:08:44.514
 He basically doesn't exert any sort of
 
 00:08:44.575 --> 00:08:45.115
 initiative.
 
 00:08:45.595 --> 00:08:48.035
 But he could have marched north and the
 
 00:08:48.076 --> 00:08:50.496
 next day taken out Fort Mercer.
 
 00:08:50.537 --> 00:08:51.616
 Because at that point,
 
 00:08:52.177 --> 00:08:54.958
 basically October third of seventy seven,
 
 00:08:56.259 --> 00:08:58.059
 they're in the process of building Fort
 
 00:08:58.100 --> 00:09:00.081
 Mercer with just laborers and a little bit
 
 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:00.660
 of militia.
 
 00:09:00.941 --> 00:09:02.861
 There's no Continental regulars there at
 
 00:09:02.902 --> 00:09:03.381
 that point.
 
 00:09:04.784 --> 00:09:06.647
 There will be a couple of weeks later,
 
 00:09:06.706 --> 00:09:07.807
 but at that point,
 
 00:09:08.187 --> 00:09:09.469
 he could have easily taken it out.
 
 00:09:09.489 --> 00:09:09.668
 Yeah.
 
 00:09:12.130 --> 00:09:14.211
 And then the operation against Fort Mercer
 
 00:09:14.251 --> 00:09:16.313
 actually sends twenty two hundred men,
 
 00:09:16.474 --> 00:09:20.255
 mainly Hessians under against Christopher
 
 00:09:20.275 --> 00:09:22.057
 Green and five hundred guys are there.
 
 00:09:23.158 --> 00:09:26.221
 So it might have looked like I don't
 
 00:09:26.280 --> 00:09:27.822
 know how much intelligence that each side
 
 00:09:27.861 --> 00:09:30.283
 have about what was going on inside the
 
 00:09:30.364 --> 00:09:31.884
 others campaign.
 
 00:09:32.658 --> 00:09:33.539
 Good question.
 
 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.341
 They that's a good question.
 
 00:09:36.922 --> 00:09:39.283
 So from the American point of view,
 
 00:09:39.783 --> 00:09:41.884
 they're just reacting to circumstances.
 
 00:09:42.085 --> 00:09:43.946
 Yeah.
 
 00:09:43.985 --> 00:09:44.265
 You know,
 
 00:09:44.326 --> 00:09:47.408
 they're they're Washington's trying to
 
 00:09:47.488 --> 00:09:48.248
 lead from afar.
 
 00:09:48.307 --> 00:09:51.970
 Washington at no point after July of
 
 00:09:52.049 --> 00:09:53.951
 seventy seven will visit any of these
 
 00:09:53.991 --> 00:09:54.371
 forts.
 
 00:09:56.432 --> 00:09:59.095
 And so he is trying to manage it
 
 00:09:59.134 --> 00:09:59.855
 from afar.
 
 00:10:00.355 --> 00:10:01.576
 Where exactly is he, Mike?
 
 00:10:02.057 --> 00:10:03.139
 It depends on when.
 
 00:10:03.178 --> 00:10:07.745
 So during the attack on Billingsport,
 
 00:10:08.187 --> 00:10:10.350
 he's getting ready to attack Germantown.
 
 00:10:11.052 --> 00:10:12.934
 So the attack on Billingsport is October
 
 00:10:13.014 --> 00:10:13.455
 second.
 
 00:10:13.956 --> 00:10:15.238
 October fourth is the Battle of
 
 00:10:15.258 --> 00:10:15.918
 Germantown.
 
 00:10:16.019 --> 00:10:16.220
 Right.
 
 00:10:16.889 --> 00:10:18.250
 After Germantown,
 
 00:10:19.010 --> 00:10:21.532
 they initially retreat pretty far west.
 
 00:10:24.594 --> 00:10:26.214
 Well, for anybody familiar with the area,
 
 00:10:26.914 --> 00:10:28.815
 they retreat out to what's modern
 
 00:10:28.875 --> 00:10:30.135
 Schwanksville, Pennsylvania.
 
 00:10:30.696 --> 00:10:32.576
 And then they work their way closer in,
 
 00:10:32.836 --> 00:10:34.738
 initially to Talmensen Township.
 
 00:10:35.678 --> 00:10:36.158
 Ultimately,
 
 00:10:36.599 --> 00:10:38.399
 he's going to position himself by the
 
 00:10:38.460 --> 00:10:41.480
 beginning of November on the hills around
 
 00:10:41.581 --> 00:10:42.140
 White Marsh.
 
 00:10:42.201 --> 00:10:43.961
 Okay.
 
 00:10:44.042 --> 00:10:45.263
 And that's where he will spend...
 
 00:10:46.635 --> 00:10:50.899
 Man, almost six weeks up there,
 
 00:10:51.019 --> 00:10:52.580
 directing things from up there.
 
 00:10:52.659 --> 00:10:54.922
 And he will periodically detach elements
 
 00:10:54.961 --> 00:10:58.604
 of the army to reinforce these forts or
 
 00:10:58.823 --> 00:10:59.244
 order.
 
 00:11:00.065 --> 00:11:02.145
 Also keep in mind the Saratoga campaign
 
 00:11:02.285 --> 00:11:03.527
 ends in the middle of all this.
 
 00:11:03.547 --> 00:11:04.447
 Right, right.
 
 00:11:04.467 --> 00:11:07.590
 And as those brigades from Horatio Gates'
 
 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:09.551
 army are coming down to join Washington,
 
 00:11:09.971 --> 00:11:12.253
 he's splitting them off to reinforce New
 
 00:11:12.293 --> 00:11:12.793
 Jersey.
 
 00:11:12.893 --> 00:11:13.293
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:11:15.167 --> 00:11:15.567
 But again,
 
 00:11:15.648 --> 00:11:17.168
 he's never going to be in New Jersey
 
 00:11:17.208 --> 00:11:17.610
 for any of us.
 
 00:11:17.690 --> 00:11:19.051
 Right, yeah.
 
 00:11:19.572 --> 00:11:19.871
 Yeah.
 
 00:11:19.892 --> 00:11:20.812
 I don't know if that answered your
 
 00:11:20.852 --> 00:11:22.975
 question or not.
 
 00:11:23.014 --> 00:11:24.716
 That does, yeah.
 
 00:11:24.756 --> 00:11:26.259
 So we're talking with Michael Harris,
 
 00:11:26.298 --> 00:11:27.899
 whose latest book is Fighting for
 
 00:11:27.940 --> 00:11:30.062
 Philadelphia, Forts Mercer and Mifflin,
 
 00:11:30.082 --> 00:11:31.784
 The Battle of White Marsh and the Road
 
 00:11:31.825 --> 00:11:32.745
 to Valley Forge.
 
 00:11:33.385 --> 00:11:35.586
 which leads us to Valley Forge,
 
 00:11:35.606 --> 00:11:37.067
 but we have a lot of ground to
 
 00:11:37.107 --> 00:11:37.988
 cover first.
 
 00:11:38.048 --> 00:11:42.210
 So Fort Mercer is the one kind of
 
 00:11:42.250 --> 00:11:44.671
 high point for the Americans in this
 
 00:11:44.711 --> 00:11:45.831
 campaign, because as I said,
 
 00:11:45.851 --> 00:11:48.133
 there are five hundred of their guys under
 
 00:11:48.192 --> 00:11:50.894
 Christopher Green and the Hessians,
 
 00:11:50.994 --> 00:11:52.754
 the Vandana thinks this will be relatively
 
 00:11:52.894 --> 00:11:57.817
 easy and he is surprised at what happens.
 
 00:11:57.856 --> 00:11:58.537
 Yeah, so
 
 00:11:59.937 --> 00:12:00.278
 Again,
 
 00:12:01.038 --> 00:12:03.860
 William Howe is really pressured to open
 
 00:12:03.900 --> 00:12:06.081
 up the river.
 
 00:12:06.581 --> 00:12:08.202
 Yes, he has gotten Billingsport,
 
 00:12:08.263 --> 00:12:12.066
 but it takes the Royal Navy almost two
 
 00:12:12.105 --> 00:12:13.667
 weeks to create an opening in the
 
 00:12:13.687 --> 00:12:15.467
 obstructions down by Billingsport,
 
 00:12:15.587 --> 00:12:16.828
 and it's just taking forever.
 
 00:12:17.428 --> 00:12:19.629
 There's another line of obstructions
 
 00:12:19.730 --> 00:12:20.471
 farther north,
 
 00:12:20.530 --> 00:12:23.533
 basically between Fort Mercer and Fort
 
 00:12:23.572 --> 00:12:23.993
 Mifflin,
 
 00:12:24.352 --> 00:12:25.774
 which is roughly where the Philadelphia
 
 00:12:25.894 --> 00:12:27.414
 airport is today if you're trying to place
 
 00:12:27.434 --> 00:12:28.255
 yourself on a map.
 
 00:12:28.842 --> 00:12:29.023
 Yeah,
 
 00:12:29.043 --> 00:12:30.764
 so you say that Fort Mifflin actually is
 
 00:12:31.926 --> 00:12:33.307
 where you can fly over.
 
 00:12:33.947 --> 00:12:35.389
 Yeah, if you go visit it today,
 
 00:12:35.408 --> 00:12:35.909
 which you can,
 
 00:12:35.970 --> 00:12:37.951
 Fort Mifflin is literally right next to
 
 00:12:37.971 --> 00:12:38.491
 the airport.
 
 00:12:39.253 --> 00:12:41.115
 And then directly across from it on the
 
 00:12:41.154 --> 00:12:43.277
 New Jersey shoreline is Fort Mercer,
 
 00:12:43.317 --> 00:12:44.618
 which is a county park today.
 
 00:12:45.599 --> 00:12:47.299
 You could go visit the remains of the
 
 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:48.061
 earthworks there.
 
 00:12:48.802 --> 00:12:49.802
 And so initially,
 
 00:12:49.923 --> 00:12:51.644
 William Howe is going to try to build
 
 00:12:51.745 --> 00:12:53.166
 land batteries there.
 
 00:12:53.861 --> 00:12:55.823
 on the Pennsylvania shore to shell Fort
 
 00:12:55.864 --> 00:12:56.225
 Mifflin.
 
 00:12:56.764 --> 00:12:59.967
 But it's taking forever to prepare these
 
 00:13:00.008 --> 00:13:00.488
 batteries.
 
 00:13:00.849 --> 00:13:02.029
 And so he wants to speed up the
 
 00:13:02.070 --> 00:13:05.432
 process by attacking Fort Mercer in New
 
 00:13:05.472 --> 00:13:08.534
 Jersey because Fort Mercer is the lifeline
 
 00:13:08.554 --> 00:13:09.096
 for Mifflin.
 
 00:13:09.275 --> 00:13:11.197
 Reinforcements and supplies for Mifflin
 
 00:13:11.618 --> 00:13:14.080
 have to come from Fort Mercer.
 
 00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:15.341
 But he's got a problem.
 
 00:13:16.381 --> 00:13:19.784
 Most of his veteran British regiments are
 
 00:13:19.825 --> 00:13:20.245
 bloodied.
 
 00:13:21.549 --> 00:13:23.812
 Kind of worn out from the campaign and
 
 00:13:23.932 --> 00:13:27.614
 not in a state to make this attack.
 
 00:13:27.714 --> 00:13:29.936
 And the Hessian units are largely
 
 00:13:30.035 --> 00:13:32.697
 unbloodied and largely unused through this
 
 00:13:32.736 --> 00:13:33.677
 point of the campaign.
 
 00:13:34.479 --> 00:13:37.620
 And so he tasks about twenty two hundred
 
 00:13:37.640 --> 00:13:39.942
 troops, almost entirely Hessian,
 
 00:13:40.663 --> 00:13:42.604
 to to make this attack.
 
 00:13:43.535 --> 00:13:44.796
 led by Carl Vandana.
 
 00:13:44.816 --> 00:13:44.895
 Now,
 
 00:13:45.056 --> 00:13:47.876
 there's some theory out there that Vandana
 
 00:13:48.177 --> 00:13:49.157
 lobbied for this,
 
 00:13:49.216 --> 00:13:51.518
 that he wanted the Hessians to have this
 
 00:13:51.577 --> 00:13:51.898
 role,
 
 00:13:52.618 --> 00:13:54.099
 which there probably is some truth to,
 
 00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:56.778
 because the Hessians have not had a chance
 
 00:13:56.818 --> 00:13:59.120
 to redeem their reputation since their
 
 00:13:59.159 --> 00:14:01.721
 last major battle, which is Trenton,
 
 00:14:02.181 --> 00:14:03.701
 which most of the listeners are probably
 
 00:14:03.721 --> 00:14:04.321
 familiar with.
 
 00:14:05.701 --> 00:14:07.442
 And so that plays into this.
 
 00:14:08.466 --> 00:14:10.969
 And then when they approach Fort Mercer on
 
 00:14:11.109 --> 00:14:13.309
 October twenty second,
 
 00:14:13.831 --> 00:14:15.432
 hopefully I'm getting my dates right.
 
 00:14:15.451 --> 00:14:16.993
 When they're approaching Fort Mercer on
 
 00:14:17.052 --> 00:14:18.153
 October twenty second,
 
 00:14:18.693 --> 00:14:21.155
 they don't really fear Americans behind a
 
 00:14:21.196 --> 00:14:21.895
 fortification.
 
 00:14:22.937 --> 00:14:24.457
 Because the last time the Hessians
 
 00:14:24.498 --> 00:14:26.359
 attacked an American fortification,
 
 00:14:26.500 --> 00:14:27.740
 it was fairly easy.
 
 00:14:29.481 --> 00:14:30.381
 Fort Washington,
 
 00:14:30.422 --> 00:14:32.484
 right in upper Manhattan Island.
 
 00:14:33.347 --> 00:14:34.610
 So they don't really fear it.
 
 00:14:35.330 --> 00:14:37.793
 And so with very little artillery
 
 00:14:37.832 --> 00:14:38.453
 bombardment,
 
 00:14:38.894 --> 00:14:40.956
 they assault this fort with three of the
 
 00:14:40.996 --> 00:14:42.477
 four regiments they took with them.
 
 00:14:43.038 --> 00:14:44.360
 And they're bloodily repulsed.
 
 00:14:45.030 --> 00:14:46.831
 Five hundred Rhode Islanders repulsed
 
 00:14:46.871 --> 00:14:50.332
 these twenty hundred men.
 
 00:14:50.352 --> 00:14:51.533
 Vondonup is mortally wounded.
 
 00:14:52.852 --> 00:14:53.994
 I don't have the numbers right in front
 
 00:14:54.014 --> 00:14:54.153
 of me,
 
 00:14:54.173 --> 00:14:55.774
 but something like three hundred and
 
 00:14:55.854 --> 00:14:57.774
 seventy Hessian casualties in the assault.
 
 00:14:57.794 --> 00:14:58.835
 It's amazing.
 
 00:14:59.174 --> 00:14:59.394
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:00.434 --> 00:15:01.836
 And one of the Americans said that they
 
 00:15:01.855 --> 00:15:03.336
 felt as safe as a mouse in a
 
 00:15:03.416 --> 00:15:04.296
 cheese inside.
 
 00:15:04.375 --> 00:15:04.596
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:05.657 --> 00:15:05.876
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:06.496 --> 00:15:06.856
 Because, I mean,
 
 00:15:06.876 --> 00:15:08.577
 it's kind of shocking that they pull it
 
 00:15:08.697 --> 00:15:08.878
 off.
 
 00:15:09.038 --> 00:15:09.217
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:09.738 --> 00:15:11.759
 Even because there's such a disparity in
 
 00:15:11.778 --> 00:15:12.278
 the numbers.
 
 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.119
 But yeah.
 
 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:17.163
 The fort was very well engineered by a
 
 00:15:17.263 --> 00:15:19.645
 French engineer officer, Duplessis.
 
 00:15:21.346 --> 00:15:23.549
 The American naval elements that are on
 
 00:15:23.570 --> 00:15:26.072
 the river support the defense with their
 
 00:15:26.111 --> 00:15:26.753
 artillery.
 
 00:15:28.335 --> 00:15:30.716
 It's just it's a shockingly lopsided
 
 00:15:30.797 --> 00:15:31.138
 victory.
 
 00:15:31.158 --> 00:15:31.258
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:33.059
 Yeah.
 
 00:15:35.081 --> 00:15:37.803
 But then things don't go as well at
 
 00:15:38.043 --> 00:15:39.004
 Fort Mifflin again.
 
 00:15:39.125 --> 00:15:41.067
 And then it's a location,
 
 00:15:41.567 --> 00:15:43.089
 it's in this watery mud.
 
 00:15:45.951 --> 00:15:47.413
 So can you tell us a bit about
 
 00:15:47.452 --> 00:15:48.813
 what happens at Fort Mifflin?
 
 00:15:49.654 --> 00:15:52.457
 So after the Fort Mercer thing is a
 
 00:15:52.498 --> 00:15:53.759
 failure for the British...
 
 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:56.282
 they then are going to concentrate on
 
 00:15:56.341 --> 00:15:57.383
 taking out Fort Mifflin.
 
 00:15:57.403 --> 00:15:59.926
 They're going to spend the next couple
 
 00:15:59.946 --> 00:16:01.727
 weeks finishing these land batteries,
 
 00:16:01.788 --> 00:16:03.149
 basically where the airport is now.
 
 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:04.631
 They had built all these land batteries.
 
 00:16:06.734 --> 00:16:08.076
 And starting on November
 
 00:16:09.587 --> 00:16:12.068
 The land batteries initially by themselves
 
 00:16:12.089 --> 00:16:13.970
 for about four days are going to just
 
 00:16:14.009 --> 00:16:15.409
 bombard Fort Mifflin,
 
 00:16:16.471 --> 00:16:18.730
 which was a weird conglomeration of a
 
 00:16:18.791 --> 00:16:19.051
 fort.
 
 00:16:19.110 --> 00:16:21.851
 It had two stone walls and two walls
 
 00:16:21.871 --> 00:16:23.293
 that were wooden palisades.
 
 00:16:23.312 --> 00:16:24.994
 So it's a weird conglomeration of
 
 00:16:25.453 --> 00:16:26.053
 material.
 
 00:16:26.793 --> 00:16:27.934
 But over those four days,
 
 00:16:27.995 --> 00:16:29.554
 they're going to dismount pretty much
 
 00:16:29.595 --> 00:16:31.076
 every American gun in the place.
 
 00:16:31.255 --> 00:16:31.316
 Wow.
 
 00:16:31.655 --> 00:16:32.976
 It's going to turn into a pile of
 
 00:16:33.037 --> 00:16:33.417
 rubble.
 
 00:16:34.057 --> 00:16:35.139
 And then on the fifth day,
 
 00:16:35.198 --> 00:16:36.419
 November fifteenth,
 
 00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:38.660
 the British Navy is going to attack in
 
 00:16:38.681 --> 00:16:41.322
 the position and add their weight to this
 
 00:16:41.363 --> 00:16:42.624
 bombardment for one day.
 
 00:16:43.384 --> 00:16:44.445
 So on the fifteenth,
 
 00:16:44.465 --> 00:16:45.885
 you've got about two hundred and fifty
 
 00:16:45.907 --> 00:16:47.427
 guns shooting at Fort Mifflin.
 
 00:16:49.089 --> 00:16:51.309
 Largest concentration of artillery until
 
 00:16:51.490 --> 00:16:52.892
 Pickett's Charge in the Civil War.
 
 00:16:53.652 --> 00:16:54.253
 Wow.
 
 00:16:54.613 --> 00:16:58.235
 Massive amount of iron being thrown onto
 
 00:16:58.456 --> 00:17:00.977
 what was then an island that the fort
 
 00:17:01.018 --> 00:17:01.457
 sat on.
 
 00:17:02.344 --> 00:17:03.325
 And by that night,
 
 00:17:03.806 --> 00:17:05.928
 there's basically nothing left to defend.
 
 00:17:07.328 --> 00:17:08.851
 And as a matter of pride,
 
 00:17:08.891 --> 00:17:11.093
 the Americans don't technically surrender
 
 00:17:11.133 --> 00:17:11.452
 the fort.
 
 00:17:11.472 --> 00:17:13.315
 The night of the fifteenth,
 
 00:17:13.335 --> 00:17:15.998
 they leave the garrison flag flying and
 
 00:17:16.018 --> 00:17:18.861
 then row the survivors over to Fort Mercer
 
 00:17:18.881 --> 00:17:19.902
 on the New Jersey shore.
 
 00:17:20.923 --> 00:17:22.183
 So they abandon the fort.
 
 00:17:22.203 --> 00:17:23.744
 They don't technically surrender it.
 
 00:17:24.205 --> 00:17:26.048
 And the British occupy the island the next
 
 00:17:26.087 --> 00:17:26.367
 morning.
 
 00:17:27.536 --> 00:17:27.675
 Wow.
 
 00:17:27.715 --> 00:17:28.557
 Well, amazing.
 
 00:17:28.576 --> 00:17:29.938
 We're talking with Michael Harris,
 
 00:17:29.998 --> 00:17:31.699
 whose latest book is Fighting for
 
 00:17:31.739 --> 00:17:34.141
 Philadelphia, Fort Mercer and Mifflin,
 
 00:17:34.161 --> 00:17:36.021
 the Battle of White Marsh and the Road
 
 00:17:36.041 --> 00:17:36.823
 to Valley Forge.
 
 00:17:37.844 --> 00:17:40.705
 And the cover has that great scene of
 
 00:17:41.346 --> 00:17:41.906
 what's happening.
 
 00:17:41.926 --> 00:17:43.167
 Can you tell us on the cover since
 
 00:17:43.188 --> 00:17:44.248
 we're looking at the cover?
 
 00:17:44.307 --> 00:17:45.209
 Yeah, no, no.
 
 00:17:45.229 --> 00:17:48.371
 The cover is actually Continental Marines
 
 00:17:48.511 --> 00:17:50.873
 rescuing the garrison at Billingsport.
 
 00:17:51.493 --> 00:17:54.036
 OK, that's the evacuation of Billingsport.
 
 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:57.861
 which I got from the Marine Museum in
 
 00:17:57.881 --> 00:17:58.240
 Quantico.
 
 00:17:58.260 --> 00:17:58.820
 Oh, nice, nice, nice.
 
 00:17:58.840 --> 00:18:02.280
 Yeah, great, great image, yeah.
 
 00:18:02.701 --> 00:18:04.882
 Yeah, we've been talking about the forts,
 
 00:18:04.942 --> 00:18:05.301
 but again,
 
 00:18:05.342 --> 00:18:06.961
 the river is the thing that's in play,
 
 00:18:07.022 --> 00:18:08.682
 and each side has vessels,
 
 00:18:08.722 --> 00:18:10.343
 and that's an interesting piece of the
 
 00:18:10.383 --> 00:18:10.863
 story,
 
 00:18:10.903 --> 00:18:12.963
 the American vessels and the British
 
 00:18:13.003 --> 00:18:14.804
 vessels who are trying to come up river.
 
 00:18:16.444 --> 00:18:17.285
 What about,
 
 00:18:17.345 --> 00:18:19.224
 so there is a small American fleet that's
 
 00:18:19.265 --> 00:18:20.945
 been on the river and is now kind
 
 00:18:21.006 --> 00:18:22.806
 of bottled up, so what happens with them?
 
 00:18:24.297 --> 00:18:27.398
 Well, it's a weird conglomeration,
 
 00:18:27.679 --> 00:18:29.640
 mostly small boats that the Americans
 
 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:29.980
 have.
 
 00:18:30.800 --> 00:18:32.801
 And most of them are actually Pennsylvania
 
 00:18:32.882 --> 00:18:33.403
 Navy.
 
 00:18:33.603 --> 00:18:35.003
 So they're like naval militia.
 
 00:18:35.644 --> 00:18:37.184
 There is a few continental ships,
 
 00:18:37.224 --> 00:18:38.705
 but none of these are big men of
 
 00:18:38.746 --> 00:18:39.046
 war.
 
 00:18:39.527 --> 00:18:40.686
 Not like what the British have.
 
 00:18:41.228 --> 00:18:43.848
 It's mostly these little row galleys or
 
 00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:45.250
 small little sloops.
 
 00:18:46.691 --> 00:18:51.034
 But they're not really capable of taking
 
 00:18:51.094 --> 00:18:52.095
 on the British men of war.
 
 00:18:52.923 --> 00:18:54.124
 They do, you know,
 
 00:18:54.144 --> 00:18:57.826
 they're more of a pest thing.
 
 00:18:57.885 --> 00:18:59.767
 But once the forts fall,
 
 00:18:59.846 --> 00:19:01.607
 because Mifflin falls and that quickly
 
 00:19:01.667 --> 00:19:03.528
 leads to the abandonment of Fort Mercer,
 
 00:19:04.409 --> 00:19:05.009
 the fleet,
 
 00:19:05.029 --> 00:19:07.030
 they're going to try to rescue what's left
 
 00:19:07.090 --> 00:19:09.432
 of the American fleet by sneaking it up
 
 00:19:09.471 --> 00:19:10.512
 past Philadelphia,
 
 00:19:11.252 --> 00:19:13.253
 north up the river towards where
 
 00:19:13.594 --> 00:19:16.215
 Burlington is and try to save it for
 
 00:19:16.236 --> 00:19:17.717
 the next season, basically.
 
 00:19:18.499 --> 00:19:19.618
 But in the process,
 
 00:19:20.259 --> 00:19:22.099
 many of them are seen or caught.
 
 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:25.060
 And the British open fire on them from
 
 00:19:25.101 --> 00:19:26.461
 the wharves of Philadelphia.
 
 00:19:27.121 --> 00:19:28.801
 And most of the fleet ends up catching
 
 00:19:28.842 --> 00:19:30.402
 fire or running aground.
 
 00:19:31.423 --> 00:19:33.323
 So they end up losing most of the
 
 00:19:33.343 --> 00:19:33.722
 fleet.
 
 00:19:34.803 --> 00:19:38.003
 This is going to be like late November
 
 00:19:38.044 --> 00:19:39.644
 when they try to escape upriver.
 
 00:19:39.884 --> 00:19:41.285
 I don't remember the exact date of it,
 
 00:19:41.325 --> 00:19:42.305
 but it's late November.
 
 00:19:42.705 --> 00:19:43.246
 Right.
 
 00:19:43.266 --> 00:19:43.346
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:43.705 --> 00:19:43.905
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:44.795 --> 00:19:46.536
 And then even when the obstructions are
 
 00:19:46.596 --> 00:19:48.176
 open and the bridge can get their fleet
 
 00:19:48.217 --> 00:19:48.356
 up,
 
 00:19:48.376 --> 00:19:50.097
 they have a couple of spectacular
 
 00:19:50.679 --> 00:19:53.259
 disasters with the Augusta and the
 
 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:53.440
 Delaware.
 
 00:19:53.460 --> 00:19:54.401
 Can we talk a bit about?
 
 00:19:54.721 --> 00:19:57.063
 Yeah, that actually happens earlier.
 
 00:19:57.202 --> 00:20:00.825
 That is the day after Fort Mercer's
 
 00:20:00.845 --> 00:20:01.305
 attack.
 
 00:20:02.306 --> 00:20:03.267
 It's the next day.
 
 00:20:03.366 --> 00:20:05.048
 So they have now opened up enough of
 
 00:20:05.087 --> 00:20:07.608
 an opening down by Billingsport that they
 
 00:20:07.628 --> 00:20:08.990
 can start to get some of the ships
 
 00:20:09.049 --> 00:20:11.132
 closer to Fort Mifflin, Fort Mercer,
 
 00:20:11.551 --> 00:20:12.772
 where there's another row of these
 
 00:20:12.792 --> 00:20:13.373
 obstructions.
 
 00:20:14.223 --> 00:20:14.463
 Right.
 
 00:20:14.544 --> 00:20:17.027
 And so the day after the attack on
 
 00:20:17.086 --> 00:20:17.807
 Fort Mercer,
 
 00:20:17.967 --> 00:20:20.249
 a huge naval engagement erupts on the
 
 00:20:20.308 --> 00:20:22.991
 river where you have British naval ships
 
 00:20:23.011 --> 00:20:24.752
 shooting at Fort Mercer and Mifflin.
 
 00:20:25.213 --> 00:20:27.476
 Those two forts shooting back the
 
 00:20:27.516 --> 00:20:29.436
 Pennsylvania Navy swarming around these
 
 00:20:29.457 --> 00:20:30.417
 ships and shooting.
 
 00:20:31.098 --> 00:20:32.180
 It's kind of chaotic.
 
 00:20:32.539 --> 00:20:33.800
 And in this process,
 
 00:20:33.861 --> 00:20:35.362
 two British ships run aground.
 
 00:20:36.103 --> 00:20:39.965
 The sixty four gun Augusta and the HMS
 
 00:20:40.066 --> 00:20:41.748
 Merlin, which I think's only a.
 
 00:20:42.892 --> 00:20:44.073
 I think it's a XV gunner.
 
 00:20:44.093 --> 00:20:45.232
 I don't have my notes in front of
 
 00:20:45.252 --> 00:20:45.313
 me.
 
 00:20:45.353 --> 00:20:46.354
 It's a smaller ship.
 
 00:20:47.173 --> 00:20:48.433
 But they both were underground.
 
 00:20:49.174 --> 00:20:51.675
 And in the midst of them trying to
 
 00:20:51.776 --> 00:20:53.936
 free these two ships while this battle is
 
 00:20:53.997 --> 00:20:56.778
 raging, the Augusta catches fire.
 
 00:20:58.318 --> 00:21:00.460
 And there's a lot of theory out there
 
 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:03.101
 on what caused the Augusta to catch fire.
 
 00:21:03.181 --> 00:21:05.602
 There's theories of fire rafts.
 
 00:21:06.201 --> 00:21:08.603
 There's theories of hotshot being fired
 
 00:21:08.643 --> 00:21:09.523
 from Fort Mifflin.
 
 00:21:09.564 --> 00:21:11.865
 But Fort Mifflin didn't have a hotshot of
 
 00:21:11.924 --> 00:21:11.984
 it.
 
 00:21:13.045 --> 00:21:14.905
 There's theories that the wadding from her
 
 00:21:14.986 --> 00:21:16.566
 own guns caught her on fire.
 
 00:21:17.646 --> 00:21:20.086
 And really, I went to the source.
 
 00:21:20.287 --> 00:21:22.407
 So the captain of that ship is
 
 00:21:22.468 --> 00:21:23.147
 court-martialed.
 
 00:21:24.709 --> 00:21:27.950
 Any British fleet captain that loses his
 
 00:21:27.990 --> 00:21:29.670
 ship for whatever reason,
 
 00:21:30.230 --> 00:21:31.230
 whether it's his fault or not,
 
 00:21:31.330 --> 00:21:32.810
 it automatically triggers a court-martial.
 
 00:21:32.830 --> 00:21:33.211
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:21:33.291 --> 00:21:34.291
 Yeah, that happens still.
 
 00:21:34.311 --> 00:21:34.392
 Yeah.
 
 00:21:34.932 --> 00:21:37.393
 Yeah, so those documents exist.
 
 00:21:37.413 --> 00:21:38.073
 Oh, yeah.
 
 00:21:38.093 --> 00:21:39.593
 I tracked them down in the Admiralty
 
 00:21:39.692 --> 00:21:40.373
 office in London.
 
 00:21:40.393 --> 00:21:40.713
 Oh, wow.
 
 00:21:41.153 --> 00:21:43.733
 And there's testimony from the survivors.
 
 00:21:43.753 --> 00:21:43.814
 Wow.
 
 00:21:44.875 --> 00:21:46.355
 And in the testimony,
 
 00:21:46.535 --> 00:21:48.414
 it says what caused the catch fire.
 
 00:21:49.296 --> 00:21:52.376
 A Royal Marine shooting out one of the
 
 00:21:52.436 --> 00:21:53.136
 portholes.
 
 00:21:53.757 --> 00:21:56.738
 The flash from his flintlock caught a
 
 00:21:56.778 --> 00:21:57.758
 hammock on fire.
 
 00:21:58.137 --> 00:21:58.877
 Wow.
 
 00:21:58.978 --> 00:22:00.878
 And the hammock fire spreads.
 
 00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:01.318
 Wow.
 
 00:22:01.338 --> 00:22:01.638
 Wow.
 
 00:22:02.199 --> 00:22:03.499
 And it eventually spreads to the
 
 00:22:03.558 --> 00:22:05.700
 ammunition hold and the ship explodes.
 
 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:05.779
 Wow.
 
 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:06.961
 I mean,
 
 00:22:07.300 --> 00:22:09.060
 massive explosion to the point where
 
 00:22:09.800 --> 00:22:11.561
 windows in Philadelphia are shattered.
 
 00:22:11.582 --> 00:22:12.001
 Wow.
 
 00:22:12.622 --> 00:22:14.383
 Like it's a massive explosion.
 
 00:22:14.403 --> 00:22:15.323
 There's artwork of it.
 
 00:22:15.363 --> 00:22:16.262
 You could Google it.
 
 00:22:16.303 --> 00:22:18.743
 But of this of this mushroom cloud going
 
 00:22:18.784 --> 00:22:19.503
 up in the ship.
 
 00:22:19.544 --> 00:22:20.825
 But yeah,
 
 00:22:20.884 --> 00:22:23.006
 it's so they lose the sixty four gun
 
 00:22:23.205 --> 00:22:23.685
 Augusta.
 
 00:22:25.066 --> 00:22:27.007
 And then because the Merlin is also
 
 00:22:27.047 --> 00:22:29.748
 grounded and they give up on trying to
 
 00:22:29.807 --> 00:22:30.307
 free it,
 
 00:22:30.347 --> 00:22:32.387
 they purposely set the Merlin on fire.
 
 00:22:33.229 --> 00:22:34.608
 And so in a two-day period,
 
 00:22:34.749 --> 00:22:37.329
 the Hessians are repulsed at Mercer and
 
 00:22:37.430 --> 00:22:41.191
 two major ships of the line are lost
 
 00:22:41.330 --> 00:22:42.211
 in a two-day period.
 
 00:22:42.230 --> 00:22:44.731
 It's like the high point of the campaign
 
 00:22:44.751 --> 00:22:45.471
 for the Americans.
 
 00:22:46.452 --> 00:22:47.913
 And the Americans do take some of the
 
 00:22:47.952 --> 00:22:49.713
 guns and some of the other stuff from
 
 00:22:49.753 --> 00:22:50.513
 the Augusta.
 
 00:22:50.932 --> 00:22:52.513
 Correct.
 
 00:22:52.614 --> 00:22:53.054
 Initially,
 
 00:22:53.094 --> 00:22:55.075
 it's guns that they pull off and they
 
 00:22:55.134 --> 00:22:57.236
 are going to be taken to Fort Mercer
 
 00:22:57.276 --> 00:22:58.655
 and used later in the campaign,
 
 00:22:59.195 --> 00:23:00.717
 one of which explodes later in the
 
 00:23:00.757 --> 00:23:01.297
 campaign.
 
 00:23:02.278 --> 00:23:05.538
 And archaeology about five years ago found
 
 00:23:05.578 --> 00:23:07.440
 that burst gun from the Augusta.
 
 00:23:08.023 --> 00:23:10.164
 And it's now on display at Fort Mercer.
 
 00:23:12.066 --> 00:23:14.928
 Later on, I mean, a little side note,
 
 00:23:15.087 --> 00:23:16.388
 a hundred years later,
 
 00:23:16.429 --> 00:23:19.151
 roughly in eighteen seventy six.
 
 00:23:19.871 --> 00:23:20.852
 I forget the guy's name.
 
 00:23:20.872 --> 00:23:22.932
 A guy raises the Augusta from where she
 
 00:23:22.992 --> 00:23:23.272
 sank.
 
 00:23:24.074 --> 00:23:25.875
 And he wants to put her on display
 
 00:23:25.934 --> 00:23:27.596
 for the Centennial Exposition in
 
 00:23:27.635 --> 00:23:27.955
 Philadelphia.
 
 00:23:27.976 --> 00:23:28.996
 Yeah.
 
 00:23:29.056 --> 00:23:29.876
 And they tow her.
 
 00:23:30.416 --> 00:23:32.778
 They tow her up to the New Jersey
 
 00:23:32.798 --> 00:23:33.378
 shoreline.
 
 00:23:33.439 --> 00:23:34.599
 That's as far as she gets.
 
 00:23:35.491 --> 00:23:37.173
 But when they when they dug her up
 
 00:23:37.232 --> 00:23:38.733
 in seven, eighteen seventy six,
 
 00:23:38.753 --> 00:23:40.875
 they took the paneling from the interior.
 
 00:23:41.714 --> 00:23:44.076
 And that paneling is now the interior
 
 00:23:44.115 --> 00:23:45.557
 woodwork of the D.A.R.
 
 00:23:45.576 --> 00:23:46.758
 headquarters in Washington, D.C.
 
 00:23:46.958 --> 00:23:48.519
 Amazing.
 
 00:23:48.538 --> 00:23:49.919
 So it had been under the river for
 
 00:23:49.939 --> 00:23:50.720
 a hundred years.
 
 00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:51.940
 So, yeah.
 
 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:54.141
 Yeah.
 
 00:23:54.161 --> 00:23:55.582
 I was wondering what was left of the
 
 00:23:55.622 --> 00:23:57.583
 ship after the massive explosion.
 
 00:23:57.823 --> 00:23:58.103
 Yeah.
 
 00:23:58.143 --> 00:23:59.784
 Well, I mean, I mean, I found it.
 
 00:23:59.804 --> 00:24:00.124
 I mean, again,
 
 00:24:00.144 --> 00:24:01.664
 you could Google them as late as the
 
 00:24:01.724 --> 00:24:02.786
 nineteen thirties.
 
 00:24:03.536 --> 00:24:06.136
 at low tide on the New Jersey shoreline.
 
 00:24:06.457 --> 00:24:07.656
 And I've seen pictures of it.
 
 00:24:07.696 --> 00:24:09.436
 The ribs could still be seen at low
 
 00:24:09.477 --> 00:24:09.856
 tide.
 
 00:24:11.117 --> 00:24:11.258
 Wow.
 
 00:24:11.478 --> 00:24:12.718
 I went down there when I was working
 
 00:24:12.738 --> 00:24:13.778
 on the book at low tide.
 
 00:24:13.798 --> 00:24:14.817
 I don't see anything now.
 
 00:24:14.877 --> 00:24:16.239
 So I don't know what's happened to them
 
 00:24:16.278 --> 00:24:17.058
 since the thirties,
 
 00:24:17.719 --> 00:24:19.078
 but at least as late as the thirties,
 
 00:24:19.098 --> 00:24:20.960
 there was parts of the ship still intact.
 
 00:24:21.059 --> 00:24:21.599
 Amazing.
 
 00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:23.660
 I mean, we're talking with Michael Harris,
 
 00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.220
 whose new book is fighting for
 
 00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:27.161
 Philadelphia forts, Mercer and Mifflin,
 
 00:24:27.181 --> 00:24:29.221
 the battle of white marsh and the road
 
 00:24:29.260 --> 00:24:30.141
 to Valley forge.
 
 00:24:30.901 --> 00:24:33.142
 I am wondering, um,
 
 00:24:35.615 --> 00:24:37.435
 what the tide is like on the Delaware
 
 00:24:37.455 --> 00:24:38.836
 at that point.
 
 00:24:38.957 --> 00:24:39.557
 It's well, it's a,
 
 00:24:39.718 --> 00:24:43.539
 it's a tidal estuary up to about where
 
 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:46.041
 the, the name, the modern Navy yard is.
 
 00:24:46.061 --> 00:24:46.781
 Okay.
 
 00:24:46.821 --> 00:24:49.203
 So just below colonial Philadelphia,
 
 00:24:49.243 --> 00:24:52.766
 which is a huge problem because twice a
 
 00:24:52.826 --> 00:24:53.165
 day.
 
 00:24:53.226 --> 00:24:55.788
 So the, the island, well,
 
 00:24:55.827 --> 00:24:57.969
 what was an island that Fort Mifflin sat
 
 00:24:58.088 --> 00:25:00.451
 on and the islands that the British are
 
 00:25:00.490 --> 00:25:02.813
 building these batteries on were below
 
 00:25:03.353 --> 00:25:04.953
 the, the love, the,
 
 00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:06.922
 Where the tides would go.
 
 00:25:06.961 --> 00:25:07.122
 Okay.
 
 00:25:08.263 --> 00:25:10.445
 So twice a day,
 
 00:25:10.747 --> 00:25:12.949
 the tides were raising and lowering over
 
 00:25:12.989 --> 00:25:16.173
 these islands and swamping these islands
 
 00:25:16.272 --> 00:25:17.294
 during the campaign.
 
 00:25:17.994 --> 00:25:18.776
 I mean, the British,
 
 00:25:18.796 --> 00:25:20.137
 that's why it takes the British along to
 
 00:25:20.157 --> 00:25:21.058
 build these batters.
 
 00:25:21.558 --> 00:25:23.602
 They're working in mud up to their knees
 
 00:25:23.642 --> 00:25:24.803
 and water up to their waist,
 
 00:25:24.823 --> 00:25:26.005
 trying to build land batters.
 
 00:25:27.057 --> 00:25:28.778
 And the conditions are no better inside
 
 00:25:28.818 --> 00:25:30.179
 Fort Mifflin for the Americans.
 
 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:32.960
 Yeah, go ahead.
 
 00:25:32.980 --> 00:25:33.280
 Sorry.
 
 00:25:33.441 --> 00:25:34.681
 It's going to be easier for them,
 
 00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:35.101
 I suppose.
 
 00:25:35.121 --> 00:25:36.241
 This is one reason they want to get
 
 00:25:36.281 --> 00:25:37.061
 their fleet there,
 
 00:25:37.102 --> 00:25:38.762
 because that's going to be more effective
 
 00:25:38.782 --> 00:25:42.223
 than a land battery in a swamp.
 
 00:25:42.884 --> 00:25:43.244
 Yes.
 
 00:25:43.924 --> 00:25:44.285
 Yes.
 
 00:25:45.464 --> 00:25:46.046
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:46.145 --> 00:25:46.286
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:47.259 --> 00:25:47.920
 Yeah.
 
 00:25:47.940 --> 00:25:49.040
 So in the midst of all of this,
 
 00:25:49.080 --> 00:25:52.042
 too, we get news of Saratoga.
 
 00:25:52.103 --> 00:25:54.085
 So here things are going kind of badly
 
 00:25:54.125 --> 00:25:55.026
 for the Americans,
 
 00:25:55.066 --> 00:25:57.807
 despite what's the destruction of the
 
 00:25:57.847 --> 00:26:00.390
 Augusta and the holding out of Fort
 
 00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:01.691
 Mercer.
 
 00:26:01.912 --> 00:26:03.192
 But then the news of Saratoga,
 
 00:26:03.212 --> 00:26:05.375
 does that have an impact on morale here
 
 00:26:05.414 --> 00:26:06.736
 for either side, both sides?
 
 00:26:06.855 --> 00:26:07.455
 It does.
 
 00:26:09.324 --> 00:26:12.866
 so um and actually the americans yes they
 
 00:26:12.906 --> 00:26:14.669
 lose at brandywine and they lose a
 
 00:26:14.709 --> 00:26:17.590
 germantown but they're starting to prove
 
 00:26:17.790 --> 00:26:19.653
 the army directly under washington's
 
 00:26:19.692 --> 00:26:23.516
 command is starting to prove that they can
 
 00:26:23.576 --> 00:26:25.758
 go toe-to-toe with the british they
 
 00:26:25.778 --> 00:26:28.079
 haven't quite found success yet but
 
 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:29.941
 there's there's there's glimmers of that
 
 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:30.261
 hope
 
 00:26:31.277 --> 00:26:33.238
 And then when they get the news of
 
 00:26:33.959 --> 00:26:35.160
 the surrender at Saratoga,
 
 00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:37.621
 there's actually a huge celebration at
 
 00:26:37.661 --> 00:26:39.221
 where they were camped at that point when
 
 00:26:39.241 --> 00:26:40.022
 they get the news.
 
 00:26:41.644 --> 00:26:45.946
 And then Washington starts to harbor hopes
 
 00:26:46.166 --> 00:26:47.667
 of attacking Philadelphia.
 
 00:26:48.228 --> 00:26:50.650
 And he keeps waiting for the brigades from
 
 00:26:51.269 --> 00:26:53.372
 Gates's army to come down to reinforce
 
 00:26:53.392 --> 00:26:53.531
 him.
 
 00:26:53.932 --> 00:26:56.253
 Because he's actually contemplating a
 
 00:26:56.394 --> 00:26:59.736
 second attack on Philadelphia in late
 
 00:26:59.816 --> 00:27:00.435
 November.
 
 00:27:01.176 --> 00:27:02.217
 Actually, to be honest with you,
 
 00:27:02.297 --> 00:27:03.698
 right up until Christmas Day.
 
 00:27:04.458 --> 00:27:05.939
 Even after they get the Valley Forge,
 
 00:27:05.999 --> 00:27:07.859
 he's still contemplating an attack,
 
 00:27:09.040 --> 00:27:10.442
 which he ends up giving up at late
 
 00:27:10.481 --> 00:27:12.903
 December because of how bad the supply
 
 00:27:12.923 --> 00:27:14.083
 situation is for the Army.
 
 00:27:14.604 --> 00:27:16.384
 But he wants to go.
 
 00:27:16.545 --> 00:27:18.105
 He thinks there's an opportunity to finish
 
 00:27:18.145 --> 00:27:19.105
 Howell's Army off,
 
 00:27:19.346 --> 00:27:20.507
 just like they did the Gates.
 
 00:27:21.340 --> 00:27:24.403
 So the morale is soaring by late November.
 
 00:27:25.023 --> 00:27:25.684
 That's interesting.
 
 00:27:26.525 --> 00:27:28.105
 There's a story that Frederick the Great,
 
 00:27:28.125 --> 00:27:29.426
 when he hears the Americans lost
 
 00:27:29.467 --> 00:27:30.847
 Philadelphia, thinks it's over.
 
 00:27:30.887 --> 00:27:32.589
 But then when he hears about Germantown,
 
 00:27:33.130 --> 00:27:35.152
 he says there's no way that this army
 
 00:27:35.271 --> 00:27:37.032
 under this commander can lose,
 
 00:27:37.053 --> 00:27:38.173
 that he recognizes.
 
 00:27:38.193 --> 00:27:40.756
 But Washington always wants to fight.
 
 00:27:40.796 --> 00:27:44.138
 That is not simply let the British go.
 
 00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:44.219
 Yes.
 
 00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.121
 Now, speaking of Valley Forge,
 
 00:27:48.201 --> 00:27:49.982
 and you've mentioned earlier that your
 
 00:27:50.022 --> 00:27:51.584
 next project is going to be on Valley
 
 00:27:51.624 --> 00:27:53.365
 Forge and your book does end with,
 
 00:27:53.384 --> 00:27:54.965
 you know, going to Valley Forge.
 
 00:27:55.726 --> 00:27:58.127
 One question you've addressed here is how
 
 00:27:58.167 --> 00:28:00.750
 many men actually were at Valley Forge?
 
 00:28:00.789 --> 00:28:03.330
 And that's kind of an interesting piece
 
 00:28:03.351 --> 00:28:04.231
 that you've discovered.
 
 00:28:05.236 --> 00:28:06.156
 Yeah, and I can't – well,
 
 00:28:06.176 --> 00:28:07.238
 I can take some of the credit.
 
 00:28:07.278 --> 00:28:08.638
 So when I was working on – Take
 
 00:28:08.659 --> 00:28:09.078
 the credit, Mike.
 
 00:28:09.558 --> 00:28:10.000
 Well, no,
 
 00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.622
 because another historian and I – I'll
 
 00:28:12.642 --> 00:28:13.362
 give you the stories.
 
 00:28:13.923 --> 00:28:16.484
 But when I was working on the current
 
 00:28:16.525 --> 00:28:18.705
 book and I was putting together an order
 
 00:28:18.746 --> 00:28:20.647
 of battle for the White Marsh operation,
 
 00:28:20.667 --> 00:28:22.288
 which is early,
 
 00:28:22.308 --> 00:28:24.471
 like the first week of December,
 
 00:28:24.510 --> 00:28:26.751
 which is only a little less than three
 
 00:28:26.772 --> 00:28:28.193
 weeks before they go to Valley Forge.
 
 00:28:28.213 --> 00:28:30.494
 And that's important because when I put
 
 00:28:30.535 --> 00:28:32.196
 together the order of battle for White
 
 00:28:32.237 --> 00:28:33.738
 Marsh –
 
 00:28:33.699 --> 00:28:35.000
 and the troop strength returns,
 
 00:28:35.019 --> 00:28:37.280
 there's about twenty four thousand troops
 
 00:28:37.381 --> 00:28:39.383
 under Washington at White Marsh.
 
 00:28:40.522 --> 00:28:42.304
 And then a little less than three weeks
 
 00:28:42.344 --> 00:28:42.664
 later,
 
 00:28:42.924 --> 00:28:44.405
 they're marching in the Valley Forge.
 
 00:28:44.885 --> 00:28:47.126
 And so when I came up with the
 
 00:28:47.146 --> 00:28:48.288
 twenty four thousand number,
 
 00:28:48.508 --> 00:28:50.608
 I quick hopped on Valley Forge's website.
 
 00:28:50.628 --> 00:28:51.210
 I was like, well,
 
 00:28:51.230 --> 00:28:53.750
 what number they have for the arrival
 
 00:28:53.891 --> 00:28:55.853
 Valley Forge and everything I could find
 
 00:28:56.292 --> 00:28:59.174
 in a quick Internet search was like eleven
 
 00:28:59.194 --> 00:29:00.575
 to thirteen thousand guys.
 
 00:29:00.595 --> 00:29:00.955
 I'm like,
 
 00:29:02.096 --> 00:29:03.959
 Well, how does twelve,
 
 00:29:03.999 --> 00:29:08.003
 thirteen thousand guys disappear or in
 
 00:29:08.163 --> 00:29:08.664
 three weeks?
 
 00:29:08.704 --> 00:29:09.685
 It didn't make sense.
 
 00:29:10.866 --> 00:29:11.989
 And I have a really good friend,
 
 00:29:12.028 --> 00:29:13.730
 fellow historian, Gary Echobarger.
 
 00:29:14.952 --> 00:29:16.913
 And I got on the phone to Gary
 
 00:29:16.932 --> 00:29:19.213
 and I'm telling him what's going on in
 
 00:29:19.253 --> 00:29:20.733
 my head and why this doesn't make sense.
 
 00:29:20.753 --> 00:29:22.174
 He goes, something doesn't make sense.
 
 00:29:22.994 --> 00:29:24.934
 And then we really started digging.
 
 00:29:25.555 --> 00:29:28.556
 We went through the National Archives and
 
 00:29:28.635 --> 00:29:31.576
 found seven or eight troop strength
 
 00:29:31.635 --> 00:29:33.817
 returns for December for the Army.
 
 00:29:34.896 --> 00:29:36.857
 And Gary and I then we ended up
 
 00:29:36.917 --> 00:29:38.377
 writing it up and we had an article
 
 00:29:38.438 --> 00:29:39.157
 published on it.
 
 00:29:40.287 --> 00:29:43.049
 we could prove at least twenty thousand
 
 00:29:43.069 --> 00:29:44.471
 men marched in the valley for we could
 
 00:29:44.530 --> 00:29:44.811
 prove it.
 
 00:29:45.011 --> 00:29:46.232
 It's probably more than that,
 
 00:29:46.732 --> 00:29:48.315
 but we could prove twenty thousand.
 
 00:29:49.355 --> 00:29:50.076
 Interesting.
 
 00:29:50.096 --> 00:29:52.358
 Which is way more than tradition tells us.
 
 00:29:52.378 --> 00:29:56.123
 But it also exasperates how bad the supply
 
 00:29:56.163 --> 00:29:56.762
 situation was.
 
 00:29:56.782 --> 00:29:57.663
 That's right.
 
 00:29:57.723 --> 00:29:59.105
 Because there's even more troops there
 
 00:29:59.145 --> 00:30:00.287
 than we normally think.
 
 00:30:00.858 --> 00:30:04.221
 Right, right, right.
 
 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:04.361
 Yeah.
 
 00:30:04.381 --> 00:30:06.343
 So let's talk about the Battle of White
 
 00:30:06.383 --> 00:30:06.702
 Marsh.
 
 00:30:06.742 --> 00:30:08.844
 This is probably one of the battles that
 
 00:30:09.144 --> 00:30:13.487
 probably the battle fewest people have
 
 00:30:13.527 --> 00:30:14.028
 heard about.
 
 00:30:14.788 --> 00:30:16.568
 But it's a critical episode here.
 
 00:30:16.588 --> 00:30:17.869
 And you said Washington was there.
 
 00:30:17.910 --> 00:30:19.371
 So what's happening at White Marsh?
 
 00:30:19.892 --> 00:30:21.873
 So Washington had been camped up on these
 
 00:30:21.913 --> 00:30:24.114
 hills for several weeks.
 
 00:30:24.894 --> 00:30:27.497
 But once Hal is finished dealing with the
 
 00:30:27.537 --> 00:30:27.757
 river,
 
 00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:29.891
 which is pretty much over by the end
 
 00:30:29.911 --> 00:30:30.471
 of November.
 
 00:30:31.592 --> 00:30:34.534
 The traditional story tells us that Hal
 
 00:30:34.554 --> 00:30:36.816
 wants to bring Washington to battle one
 
 00:30:36.855 --> 00:30:38.076
 more time before winter.
 
 00:30:39.478 --> 00:30:41.259
 But in my research,
 
 00:30:41.318 --> 00:30:42.420
 while working on the book,
 
 00:30:43.340 --> 00:30:44.902
 I have a different take on that.
 
 00:30:46.222 --> 00:30:47.644
 And I have a different take on that
 
 00:30:47.703 --> 00:30:50.425
 because when Hal marches out of
 
 00:30:50.465 --> 00:30:51.125
 Philadelphia,
 
 00:30:51.906 --> 00:30:53.307
 I have two reasons for a different take
 
 00:30:53.347 --> 00:30:53.548
 on it.
 
 00:30:54.107 --> 00:30:55.849
 He takes something like two hundred and
 
 00:30:55.910 --> 00:30:57.250
 fifty empty wagons with him.
 
 00:30:58.063 --> 00:30:58.143
 Well,
 
 00:30:58.163 --> 00:30:59.784
 if you're going out to fight a battle,
 
 00:31:00.064 --> 00:31:01.785
 why are you taking two hundred fifty empty
 
 00:31:01.805 --> 00:31:02.345
 wagons?
 
 00:31:03.465 --> 00:31:04.046
 There's that.
 
 00:31:04.266 --> 00:31:06.267
 And then just to fast forward briefly and
 
 00:31:06.287 --> 00:31:09.009
 we'll come back to White Marsh right after
 
 00:31:09.068 --> 00:31:10.509
 he gets back from the White Marsh
 
 00:31:10.589 --> 00:31:12.431
 operation, like the next day,
 
 00:31:12.530 --> 00:31:14.892
 he sends Cornwallis back out of the city
 
 00:31:15.231 --> 00:31:16.173
 with empty wagons.
 
 00:31:17.402 --> 00:31:20.824
 i now think it's a massive foraging
 
 00:31:20.903 --> 00:31:23.605
 operation okay yeah they're desperate for
 
 00:31:23.685 --> 00:31:26.847
 food and rewards for the animals yeah and
 
 00:31:26.968 --> 00:31:28.689
 if he could bring washington the battle
 
 00:31:28.749 --> 00:31:32.652
 great but the priority was food yeah yeah
 
 00:31:32.672 --> 00:31:34.053
 so that had been kind of washington's
 
 00:31:34.093 --> 00:31:36.354
 strategy to hold him up so they can
 
 00:31:36.473 --> 00:31:38.174
 as they had done in boston so they
 
 00:31:38.214 --> 00:31:40.676
 can't read something correct and food was
 
 00:31:40.717 --> 00:31:42.498
 a major i mean even the civilians living
 
 00:31:42.518 --> 00:31:43.759
 in the city were running out of food
 
 00:31:44.844 --> 00:31:46.184
 Food was a massive problem.
 
 00:31:46.204 --> 00:31:49.185
 So when Hal comes out, I mean,
 
 00:31:49.266 --> 00:31:50.866
 I don't think he was seeking battle as
 
 00:31:50.906 --> 00:31:53.387
 so much as he was going to try
 
 00:31:53.407 --> 00:31:55.169
 to protect this forging operation.
 
 00:31:55.189 --> 00:31:57.609
 The problem he runs into is when he
 
 00:31:57.650 --> 00:31:58.471
 gets out there,
 
 00:31:58.911 --> 00:32:00.751
 the area he marches through to get there
 
 00:32:00.791 --> 00:32:01.652
 was already stripped.
 
 00:32:01.771 --> 00:32:01.991
 I mean,
 
 00:32:02.051 --> 00:32:03.373
 both armies had already stripped that
 
 00:32:03.452 --> 00:32:03.732
 area.
 
 00:32:04.232 --> 00:32:05.233
 He had to go farther.
 
 00:32:06.003 --> 00:32:08.006
 But he couldn't when he found Washington
 
 00:32:08.026 --> 00:32:10.208
 ensconced on these massive hills.
 
 00:32:10.387 --> 00:32:12.230
 It was an amazing defensive position that
 
 00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:14.011
 Washington finds out there.
 
 00:32:14.772 --> 00:32:17.174
 And so there's some little skirmishes that
 
 00:32:17.194 --> 00:32:20.218
 take place as they're kind of probing each
 
 00:32:20.298 --> 00:32:20.518
 other.
 
 00:32:21.598 --> 00:32:23.642
 But there's never a major fight because
 
 00:32:23.682 --> 00:32:25.202
 how does one want to attack up these
 
 00:32:25.242 --> 00:32:25.563
 hills?
 
 00:32:25.583 --> 00:32:26.805
 It would be another bunker hill,
 
 00:32:26.845 --> 00:32:27.244
 basically.
 
 00:32:27.265 --> 00:32:27.925
 Right, yeah.
 
 00:32:28.670 --> 00:32:30.551
 For you people up there in Massachusetts.
 
 00:32:30.971 --> 00:32:31.393
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:32.413 --> 00:32:34.055
 And so Hal shifts around.
 
 00:32:34.095 --> 00:32:36.096
 He's looking for Washington's flank.
 
 00:32:37.198 --> 00:32:38.579
 And every time he shifts,
 
 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:40.801
 Washington stops him with another probe.
 
 00:32:41.422 --> 00:32:42.983
 And so it never turns into a major
 
 00:32:43.124 --> 00:32:43.624
 battle.
 
 00:32:43.723 --> 00:32:45.205
 Just these little skirmishes.
 
 00:32:45.246 --> 00:32:47.087
 But also Hal never finds the food he's
 
 00:32:47.107 --> 00:32:47.567
 looking for.
 
 00:32:47.607 --> 00:32:47.728
 Right.
 
 00:32:47.887 --> 00:32:48.528
 Wow.
 
 00:32:48.888 --> 00:32:50.990
 And the food situation is so bad,
 
 00:32:51.009 --> 00:32:52.589
 he's in the middle of the operation.
 
 00:32:52.970 --> 00:32:54.609
 He sends two regiments back to
 
 00:32:54.650 --> 00:32:56.611
 Philadelphia with wagons to get more food.
 
 00:32:57.070 --> 00:32:57.250
 Wow.
 
 00:32:57.270 --> 00:32:59.791
 That's how bad the food situation is.
 
 00:33:00.071 --> 00:33:00.132
 Wow.
 
 00:33:00.152 --> 00:33:01.051
 So then he gives up,
 
 00:33:01.092 --> 00:33:02.192
 goes back to Philadelphia,
 
 00:33:02.271 --> 00:33:03.313
 and I kind of already mentioned it.
 
 00:33:03.373 --> 00:33:05.212
 He almost immediately sends Cornwallis
 
 00:33:05.252 --> 00:33:08.834
 back out on another forging expedition on
 
 00:33:08.874 --> 00:33:10.493
 the other side of the Schuylkill River to
 
 00:33:10.513 --> 00:33:11.354
 a different area.
 
 00:33:11.413 --> 00:33:12.075
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:33:12.275 --> 00:33:12.575
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:12.795 --> 00:33:13.434
 Wow.
 
 00:33:13.474 --> 00:33:13.575
 Wow.
 
 00:33:14.721 --> 00:33:16.786
 I'm wondering if we can shift back to
 
 00:33:16.806 --> 00:33:18.387
 the other side of the river and talk
 
 00:33:18.407 --> 00:33:19.609
 a little bit about Veloster.
 
 00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:20.070
 Yeah, we can.
 
 00:33:22.394 --> 00:33:22.596
 Yeah,
 
 00:33:22.635 --> 00:33:25.740
 so after the forts all sort of fall,
 
 00:33:25.961 --> 00:33:26.541
 in a sense,
 
 00:33:27.236 --> 00:33:28.675
 and the British have occupied those
 
 00:33:28.715 --> 00:33:29.277
 positions.
 
 00:33:30.616 --> 00:33:33.678
 There's a pretty large force that Hal sent
 
 00:33:33.837 --> 00:33:36.778
 over to take out Fort Mercer after Fort
 
 00:33:36.818 --> 00:33:39.480
 Mifflin fell under Charles Cornwallis.
 
 00:33:40.099 --> 00:33:42.980
 But once they destroy Fort Mercer and the
 
 00:33:43.020 --> 00:33:44.601
 Americans abandon that fort too,
 
 00:33:45.261 --> 00:33:46.922
 he's ready to go back to Philadelphia,
 
 00:33:47.201 --> 00:33:48.923
 and he marches to what was then a
 
 00:33:48.982 --> 00:33:51.703
 village called Gloucester on the Delaware
 
 00:33:51.723 --> 00:33:51.983
 River,
 
 00:33:52.084 --> 00:33:54.884
 and he's going to ferry his detachment
 
 00:33:54.904 --> 00:33:55.664
 back to Philadelphia.
 
 00:33:56.923 --> 00:33:58.845
 In the middle of preparing for that
 
 00:33:58.904 --> 00:33:59.566
 operation,
 
 00:34:00.326 --> 00:34:02.188
 Washington has sent a pretty large force
 
 00:34:02.268 --> 00:34:04.931
 over to New Jersey under Nathaniel Green
 
 00:34:05.530 --> 00:34:07.313
 with some troops from the main army at
 
 00:34:07.353 --> 00:34:09.335
 White Marsh as well as the reinforcements
 
 00:34:09.375 --> 00:34:10.675
 coming down from Saratoga.
 
 00:34:11.177 --> 00:34:12.697
 They are going to meet Green in New
 
 00:34:12.757 --> 00:34:13.179
 Jersey.
 
 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:15.800
 Massachusetts brigades are part of this as
 
 00:34:15.820 --> 00:34:16.342
 an example.
 
 00:34:18.452 --> 00:34:20.132
 And Nathaniel Green is trying to decide
 
 00:34:20.152 --> 00:34:20.554
 what to do,
 
 00:34:20.594 --> 00:34:22.494
 whether to attack Cornwallis or not.
 
 00:34:22.755 --> 00:34:23.875
 And in the middle of that,
 
 00:34:24.074 --> 00:34:26.916
 Lafayette is going to go scout out
 
 00:34:26.996 --> 00:34:28.856
 Cornwallis.
 
 00:34:28.916 --> 00:34:30.378
 And he thinks there's an opportunity.
 
 00:34:31.298 --> 00:34:33.840
 He goes back and convinces some New Jersey
 
 00:34:33.860 --> 00:34:34.420
 militia,
 
 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.900
 as well as elements of Daniel Morgan's
 
 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.003
 riflemen, to go attack the picket post,
 
 00:34:40.043 --> 00:34:42.384
 the outpost of Cornwallis' camp.
 
 00:34:43.083 --> 00:34:44.304
 And this is how you get something known
 
 00:34:44.344 --> 00:34:45.425
 as the Battle of Gloucester.
 
 00:34:45.445 --> 00:34:45.865
 Okay.
 
 00:34:47.068 --> 00:34:48.748
 Yeah, that's how that develops.
 
 00:34:48.789 --> 00:34:50.489
 And it's a relatively minor thing,
 
 00:34:50.530 --> 00:34:52.210
 but Lafayette's pretty successful.
 
 00:34:53.932 --> 00:34:55.594
 It gets him his division command when he
 
 00:34:55.614 --> 00:34:56.574
 gets back to the main army.
 
 00:34:56.614 --> 00:34:58.074
 That's what gets him finally a command.
 
 00:34:58.094 --> 00:34:59.315
 Because up to that point,
 
 00:34:59.335 --> 00:35:00.577
 he technically doesn't have one.
 
 00:35:02.237 --> 00:35:03.619
 But yeah, that's the Battle of Gloucester.
 
 00:35:04.460 --> 00:35:05.559
 So on the American side, I mean,
 
 00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:07.041
 you have these three guys who loom very
 
 00:35:07.101 --> 00:35:07.400
 large,
 
 00:35:07.461 --> 00:35:09.603
 Nathaniel Green and Daniel Morgan in
 
 00:35:09.663 --> 00:35:10.222
 Lafayette,
 
 00:35:11.023 --> 00:35:12.684
 and Cornwallis on the British side here.
 
 00:35:14.844 --> 00:35:15.103
 Sure, yeah.
 
 00:35:15.123 --> 00:35:15.664
 Big names.
 
 00:35:16.764 --> 00:35:17.164
 They are.
 
 00:35:18.164 --> 00:35:19.945
 Cornwallis had been spending a lot of time
 
 00:35:20.025 --> 00:35:21.005
 along with the Delaware.
 
 00:35:21.045 --> 00:35:22.106
 In January,
 
 00:35:22.146 --> 00:35:23.965
 he was there at Trenton and Princeton.
 
 00:35:24.465 --> 00:35:24.987
 Sure, yeah.
 
 00:35:27.766 --> 00:35:30.568
 But do the British do wind up getting
 
 00:35:30.748 --> 00:35:32.068
 back across to Philadelphia?
 
 00:35:32.268 --> 00:35:32.987
 Yeah, I mean,
 
 00:35:33.367 --> 00:35:36.128
 Lafayette's attack is a very small force.
 
 00:35:36.168 --> 00:35:38.009
 He basically just hits the picket posts,
 
 00:35:38.909 --> 00:35:40.489
 like sort of the guards for the camp
 
 00:35:40.510 --> 00:35:41.449
 and drives them back.
 
 00:35:42.202 --> 00:35:44.284
 And then he goes back that night and
 
 00:35:44.324 --> 00:35:45.425
 he's there.
 
 00:35:45.846 --> 00:35:47.646
 The thing of green or they're trying to
 
 00:35:47.686 --> 00:35:49.568
 decide whether to launch a full scale
 
 00:35:49.608 --> 00:35:49.949
 attack.
 
 00:35:50.878 --> 00:35:52.760
 Because Lafayette's detachments are pretty
 
 00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:53.201
 small.
 
 00:35:53.541 --> 00:35:54.702
 I don't have the numbers in front of
 
 00:35:54.722 --> 00:35:54.762
 me,
 
 00:35:54.782 --> 00:35:57.023
 but it's less than a thousand guys that
 
 00:35:57.083 --> 00:35:58.563
 make this little probing attack.
 
 00:36:00.284 --> 00:36:01.726
 And so Green,
 
 00:36:02.226 --> 00:36:04.608
 while he'll scout out the situation,
 
 00:36:04.648 --> 00:36:06.690
 he decides not to launch a full-scale
 
 00:36:06.710 --> 00:36:06.969
 attack.
 
 00:36:07.010 --> 00:36:09.311
 The most that happens is as the last
 
 00:36:09.371 --> 00:36:11.353
 of Cornwallis' guys are getting on boats,
 
 00:36:12.693 --> 00:36:14.375
 the New Jersey militia shoots them from
 
 00:36:15.255 --> 00:36:16.235
 the riverbank, basically.
 
 00:36:16.456 --> 00:36:16.657
 Okay.
 
 00:36:16.737 --> 00:36:18.057
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:18.318 --> 00:36:18.498
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:20.123 --> 00:36:22.630
 So what then leads to the choice of
 
 00:36:22.969 --> 00:36:24.934
 Valley Forge for the winter encampment?
 
 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:27.601
 Basically,
 
 00:36:28.851 --> 00:36:31.693
 From about mid-December,
 
 00:36:32.193 --> 00:36:33.755
 Washington's got to figure out where
 
 00:36:33.775 --> 00:36:34.576
 they're going to go in the winter
 
 00:36:34.615 --> 00:36:35.036
 quarters.
 
 00:36:36.797 --> 00:36:39.679
 And he actually doesn't want to stay near
 
 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:42.882
 Philadelphia because the supplies were not
 
 00:36:42.922 --> 00:36:43.222
 there.
 
 00:36:43.784 --> 00:36:44.164
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:44.184 --> 00:36:44.384
 I mean,
 
 00:36:44.483 --> 00:36:46.306
 these two armies had been operating in
 
 00:36:46.365 --> 00:36:48.027
 southeastern Pennsylvania at this point
 
 00:36:48.047 --> 00:36:49.849
 for basically four months.
 
 00:36:50.248 --> 00:36:50.590
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:50.610 --> 00:36:50.690
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:52.791
 They had stripped the farms already.
 
 00:36:54.130 --> 00:36:56.512
 So to stay in the area was going
 
 00:36:56.532 --> 00:36:59.572
 to make supplies feeding the army a
 
 00:36:59.632 --> 00:37:00.052
 problem.
 
 00:37:00.713 --> 00:37:02.233
 He actually wanted to go all the way
 
 00:37:02.373 --> 00:37:04.213
 out to the other side of the Susquehanna,
 
 00:37:04.554 --> 00:37:06.114
 basically where Harrisburg is now,
 
 00:37:06.693 --> 00:37:07.914
 and spend the winter out there.
 
 00:37:09.155 --> 00:37:11.775
 But he gets pressured by the Pennsylvania
 
 00:37:11.795 --> 00:37:12.376
 Assembly,
 
 00:37:12.715 --> 00:37:14.275
 which is basically the Pennsylvania
 
 00:37:14.315 --> 00:37:15.237
 government at the time.
 
 00:37:15.836 --> 00:37:17.936
 Where are they meeting?
 
 00:37:17.956 --> 00:37:18.838
 That's a good question.
 
 00:37:19.217 --> 00:37:20.237
 I think they're out
 
 00:37:21.905 --> 00:37:22.586
 That's a good question.
 
 00:37:22.626 --> 00:37:23.768
 I think they're in Lancaster.
 
 00:37:24.909 --> 00:37:25.829
 Okay.
 
 00:37:25.929 --> 00:37:27.231
 Congress is in York.
 
 00:37:27.672 --> 00:37:28.853
 Yeah.
 
 00:37:29.833 --> 00:37:30.534
 That's a good question.
 
 00:37:30.675 --> 00:37:32.277
 I think the Pennsylvania government's in
 
 00:37:32.317 --> 00:37:33.077
 Lancaster, though.
 
 00:37:33.157 --> 00:37:33.297
 Okay.
 
 00:37:33.927 --> 00:37:34.829
 I might be wrong about that.
 
 00:37:34.849 --> 00:37:35.989
 So they want Washington on this side of
 
 00:37:36.010 --> 00:37:38.932
 the Susquehanna.
 
 00:37:38.972 --> 00:37:39.132
 Yeah,
 
 00:37:39.152 --> 00:37:40.474
 they're out in the Pennsylvania
 
 00:37:40.514 --> 00:37:41.235
 hinterlands,
 
 00:37:42.757 --> 00:37:44.478
 just like the Continental Congress is.
 
 00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:48.442
 So they tell Washington,
 
 00:37:48.521 --> 00:37:51.545
 if you abandon the Philadelphia region to
 
 00:37:51.565 --> 00:37:53.126
 the depredations of the British,
 
 00:37:53.206 --> 00:37:54.427
 is basically how they word it,
 
 00:37:54.907 --> 00:37:56.210
 then we're going to recall our
 
 00:37:56.250 --> 00:37:57.190
 Pennsylvania regiments.
 
 00:37:58.003 --> 00:37:59.945
 Which was like which was like fifteen
 
 00:37:59.985 --> 00:38:00.864
 regiments in the army.
 
 00:38:00.885 --> 00:38:01.664
 Yeah.
 
 00:38:01.704 --> 00:38:02.425
 They threatened him.
 
 00:38:03.166 --> 00:38:04.766
 And so he's going to be forced to
 
 00:38:04.806 --> 00:38:06.327
 stay somewhere near Philadelphia,
 
 00:38:07.327 --> 00:38:08.608
 which he really didn't want to do.
 
 00:38:08.807 --> 00:38:10.128
 If you if you read the back and
 
 00:38:10.168 --> 00:38:13.409
 forth, he ends up choosing Valley Forge,
 
 00:38:13.688 --> 00:38:15.090
 not because there was a lot of food
 
 00:38:15.130 --> 00:38:15.409
 there.
 
 00:38:16.050 --> 00:38:18.690
 What Valley Forge offered was two things.
 
 00:38:18.871 --> 00:38:20.532
 Very defensible hills.
 
 00:38:21.552 --> 00:38:22.893
 If you ever get a chance to visit
 
 00:38:22.932 --> 00:38:23.552
 Valley Forge,
 
 00:38:24.112 --> 00:38:25.693
 the terrain there is very good for
 
 00:38:25.733 --> 00:38:26.414
 defense.
 
 00:38:26.574 --> 00:38:26.713
 Yeah.
 
 00:38:27.704 --> 00:38:31.146
 But the woodlots hadn't really been
 
 00:38:31.206 --> 00:38:31.905
 stripped yet.
 
 00:38:32.485 --> 00:38:34.246
 So there would at least be wood for
 
 00:38:34.306 --> 00:38:35.827
 firewood, building huts,
 
 00:38:35.867 --> 00:38:36.967
 spreading defenses.
 
 00:38:37.728 --> 00:38:39.007
 Food was going to be a problem,
 
 00:38:39.547 --> 00:38:40.748
 but at least there was wood.
 
 00:38:42.349 --> 00:38:43.849
 And that's ultimately why he ends up
 
 00:38:43.889 --> 00:38:44.829
 choosing Valley Forge.
 
 00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:47.791
 He's not so close to Philadelphia that he
 
 00:38:47.831 --> 00:38:49.471
 could get attacked real easy,
 
 00:38:50.090 --> 00:38:51.952
 but he's also not so far away that
 
 00:38:51.972 --> 00:38:53.251
 he's going to upset the Pennsylvania
 
 00:38:53.271 --> 00:38:53.652
 government.
 
 00:38:53.672 --> 00:38:53.731
 Wow.
 
 00:38:55.132 --> 00:38:55.773
 Yeah.
 
 00:38:55.853 --> 00:38:55.992
 Yeah.
 
 00:38:57.739 --> 00:39:00.519
 So you're now working on a book that's
 
 00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:03.659
 going to place all of these areas so
 
 00:39:03.699 --> 00:39:05.041
 people can visit them today.
 
 00:39:05.081 --> 00:39:06.521
 And what's the thing that surprised you
 
 00:39:06.561 --> 00:39:08.300
 most as you've been digging into this
 
 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:09.322
 really big story?
 
 00:39:10.862 --> 00:39:13.682
 I'll be honest with you,
 
 00:39:13.722 --> 00:39:15.302
 how overlooked some of it is.
 
 00:39:15.543 --> 00:39:18.143
 I mean, even Brandywine,
 
 00:39:18.164 --> 00:39:19.164
 which was my first book,
 
 00:39:19.927 --> 00:39:21.809
 It's the largest battle of the war in
 
 00:39:21.849 --> 00:39:23.088
 terms of troops engaged.
 
 00:39:23.809 --> 00:39:24.929
 It's bigger than Long Island.
 
 00:39:24.949 --> 00:39:25.911
 It's bigger than Saratoga.
 
 00:39:25.931 --> 00:39:26.891
 It's bigger than Yorktown.
 
 00:39:27.331 --> 00:39:27.471
 I mean,
 
 00:39:27.490 --> 00:39:29.311
 there's about thirty two thousand troops
 
 00:39:29.331 --> 00:39:29.452
 there.
 
 00:39:29.472 --> 00:39:29.572
 Well,
 
 00:39:29.592 --> 00:39:33.693
 and there's it was largely overlooked.
 
 00:39:34.833 --> 00:39:38.735
 And then you've hit at it a lot
 
 00:39:38.916 --> 00:39:41.817
 is everything is overshadowed by Saratoga
 
 00:39:42.597 --> 00:39:45.159
 or by Trenton, which is very early,
 
 00:39:45.659 --> 00:39:46.219
 in my opinion,
 
 00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:48.059
 the very early stages of this campaign.
 
 00:39:50.817 --> 00:39:52.478
 it gets so overshadowed because it's
 
 00:39:52.518 --> 00:39:54.918
 bookended by Trenton and Saratoga.
 
 00:39:55.858 --> 00:39:57.639
 But when you read the French foreign
 
 00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:58.280
 documents,
 
 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:00.201
 when you go into the French foreign
 
 00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:01.240
 minister's documents,
 
 00:40:01.862 --> 00:40:04.782
 he credits Germantown as much as Saratoga
 
 00:40:04.862 --> 00:40:05.842
 to the French alliance.
 
 00:40:07.184 --> 00:40:09.324
 And yet it's all very often overlooked.
 
 00:40:09.364 --> 00:40:13.465
 And hopefully my books are starting to
 
 00:40:13.505 --> 00:40:14.487
 correct that a little bit.
 
 00:40:15.978 --> 00:40:17.059
 I think they are, and I hope so,
 
 00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:18.518
 because this is really an interesting
 
 00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:19.099
 story,
 
 00:40:19.179 --> 00:40:21.440
 and it brings together the military,
 
 00:40:21.500 --> 00:40:22.139
 political,
 
 00:40:22.219 --> 00:40:25.481
 social aspects of this campaign.
 
 00:40:25.521 --> 00:40:27.242
 And you have this fight going on in
 
 00:40:27.581 --> 00:40:28.963
 one of the most then most heavily
 
 00:40:29.003 --> 00:40:31.103
 populated areas of America.
 
 00:40:31.384 --> 00:40:31.583
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:40:34.365 --> 00:40:36.309
 We've been talking with Michael C. Harris,
 
 00:40:36.369 --> 00:40:38.030
 who is the author.
 
 00:40:38.110 --> 00:40:39.592
 His latest book is Fighting for
 
 00:40:39.632 --> 00:40:41.695
 Philadelphia, Fort Mercer and Mifflin,
 
 00:40:41.735 --> 00:40:43.597
 the Battle of White Marsh and the Road
 
 00:40:43.637 --> 00:40:44.559
 to Valley Forge.
 
 00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:47.161
 And Mike, it's been great talking to you.
 
 00:40:47.202 --> 00:40:47.922
 Thank you for having me.
 
 00:40:47.943 --> 00:40:48.503
 Appreciate it.
 
 00:40:49.699 --> 00:40:51.159
 And I want to thank Jonathan Lane,
 
 00:40:51.219 --> 00:40:52.760
 our producer as well,
 
 00:40:53.139 --> 00:40:54.860
 and also the executive director of Rev.
 
 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.340
 Two Fifty and our listeners.
 
 00:40:56.380 --> 00:40:56.541
 Mike,
 
 00:40:56.561 --> 00:40:58.342
 every week we thank folks who are regular
 
 00:40:58.382 --> 00:40:58.862
 listeners.
 
 00:40:58.922 --> 00:41:00.961
 And if you're in one of these places
 
 00:41:01.001 --> 00:41:02.963
 and want some of our Revolution Two Fifty
 
 00:41:03.023 --> 00:41:03.563
 swag,
 
 00:41:04.342 --> 00:41:06.684
 including the new Henry Knox Noble Train
 
 00:41:06.704 --> 00:41:07.885
 of Artillery scarf,
 
 00:41:08.445 --> 00:41:09.744
 send Jonathan an email,
 
 00:41:09.784 --> 00:41:12.545
 jlane at revolution two five o dot org.
 
 00:41:12.585 --> 00:41:13.525
 And if you're not in one of these
 
 00:41:13.565 --> 00:41:15.306
 places and want to connect with Jonathan,
 
 00:41:15.347 --> 00:41:16.286
 still the same email,
 
 00:41:16.347 --> 00:41:18.447
 jlane at revolution two five o dot org.
 
 00:41:18.467 --> 00:41:18.947
 And this week,
 
 00:41:19.527 --> 00:41:21.228
 i want to thank our listeners actually in
 
 00:41:21.268 --> 00:41:23.989
 philadelphia and in balakinwood
 
 00:41:24.010 --> 00:41:25.969
 pennsylvania i'm probably mispronouncing
 
 00:41:25.989 --> 00:41:29.070
 that and in runnymede avanel blackwood in
 
 00:41:29.110 --> 00:41:31.552
 millville in the great state of new jersey
 
 00:41:31.931 --> 00:41:33.952
 in the villages in florida riverside
 
 00:41:33.992 --> 00:41:36.693
 california newport news virginia here in
 
 00:41:36.733 --> 00:41:38.594
 massachusetts the towns of orange and
 
 00:41:38.614 --> 00:41:42.436
 woburn um hires var in la belle france
 
 00:41:42.536 --> 00:41:45.556
 doha qatar barcelona spain and folks in
 
 00:41:45.577 --> 00:41:46.137
 all places
 
 00:41:46.257 --> 00:41:47.925
 between and beyond thanks for joining us
 
 00:41:47.965 --> 00:41:49.713
 and now we will be piped out on
 
 00:41:49.733 --> 00:41:50.577
 the road to Boston