Rage and the Republic with Jonathan Turley

Most revolutions end in failure.  If they succeed in toppling the bad old regime, they often create a new one that is worse.  "Like Saturn," a French journalist observed in the early 1790s, "the Revolution devours its children."   Why was the American Revolution different?  Legal scholar and political analyst Jonathan Turley explores this question in his new book, Rage and the Republic: The Unfinished Story of the American Revolution.   How did the Americans avoid the horrors other Revolutions? In this conversation we discuss the American Revolution, the history that American revolutionaries carried with them and informed their world, and the role of firebrands like Thomas Paine and Robespierre, and political theorists James Wilson and James Madison.

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone,
 
 00:00:02.400 --> 00:00:04.142
 and welcome to the Revolution two fifty
 
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 podcast.
 
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 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:05.804 --> 00:00:07.464
 I am co-chair of Rev two fifty.
 
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 We're a consortium of about seventy five
 
 00:00:09.486 --> 00:00:11.506
 organizations in Massachusetts planning
 
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 commemorations of American independence.
 
 00:00:14.676 --> 00:00:16.937
 And our guest today is Jonathan Turley.
 
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 And Jonathan Turley's most recent book is
 
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 Rage in the Republic,
 
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 The Unfinished Story of the American
 
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 Revolution.
 
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 He has been called by the Washington Post
 
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 the dean of legal analysts.
 
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 And Judge Posner says that he is,
 
 00:00:34.404 --> 00:00:36.283
 Judge Richard Posner says he is the second
 
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 most cited law professor
 
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 in the country,
 
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 as well as the thirty eighth most cited
 
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 public intellectual.
 
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 He is really in addition to being a
 
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 law professor at George Washington
 
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 University,
 
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 he's the Shapiro Chair for Public Interest
 
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 Law,
 
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 where he's been since nineteen ninety
 
 00:00:51.353 --> 00:00:51.533
 eight.
 
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 He is a frequent commentator on various
 
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 topics, testes,
 
 00:00:56.536 --> 00:00:58.036
 testified before one hundred or so
 
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 congressional committees.
 
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 And he's where it's really great to have
 
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 you here.
 
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 Thank you, Bob.
 
 00:01:03.459 --> 00:01:04.319
 It's great to be with you.
 
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 And your book, Rage in the Republic,
 
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 really looks at the American and French
 
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 revolutions and begins actually with a
 
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 classical world that the framers of the
 
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 Constitution,
 
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 it seems like they knew ancient Greece and
 
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 Rome as well as they knew America.
 
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 And what surprised you about delving into
 
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 this period?
 
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 What made you turn to this period?
 
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 Well,
 
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 this is really a book about revolutions
 
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 and how they start.
 
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 They're easier to start than they are to
 
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 end.
 
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 Napoleon once said that a revolution is an
 
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 idea that has found its bayonets.
 
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 The real challenge is,
 
 00:01:43.626 --> 00:01:45.248
 once that idea has taken hold,
 
 00:01:45.688 --> 00:01:47.530
 is putting away the bayonets.
 
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 And the founders were acutely aware of
 
 00:01:50.792 --> 00:01:51.091
 that.
 
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 They were great students of history.
 
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 They did not want an Athenian democracy.
 
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 You know,
 
 00:01:56.816 --> 00:02:02.260
 while Athens is often heralded as the
 
 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:04.742
 origins of modern democracy,
 
 00:02:05.302 --> 00:02:07.043
 the Athenian democracy was in many
 
 00:02:07.102 --> 00:02:08.044
 respects a failure.
 
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 It did not last long.
 
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 It led to tyranny,
 
 00:02:10.626 --> 00:02:12.507
 just as the French Revolution led to
 
 00:02:12.546 --> 00:02:14.868
 tyranny in the form of Bonaparte.
 
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 And the framers wanted to,
 
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 and the founders wanted to escape the
 
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 pattern of democracies turning into what
 
 00:02:25.917 --> 00:02:29.060
 Benjamin Rush called mobocracies or
 
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 democratic despotism.
 
 00:02:32.542 --> 00:02:35.302
 And this book looks at why these two
 
 00:02:35.342 --> 00:02:38.423
 contemporary revolutions had such a
 
 00:02:38.502 --> 00:02:39.764
 different trajectory.
 
 00:02:40.183 --> 00:02:43.743
 The American Revolution became the oldest
 
 00:02:43.804 --> 00:02:46.044
 and arguably the most successful democracy
 
 00:02:46.085 --> 00:02:46.724
 in the world.
 
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 And the French Revolution became the
 
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 terror.
 
 00:02:50.126 --> 00:02:52.225
 And it looks at the different elements
 
 00:02:52.286 --> 00:02:55.287
 that contributed to those very different
 
 00:02:55.326 --> 00:02:55.887
 results.
 
 00:02:58.276 --> 00:02:59.157
 It really does.
 
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 And you see this, I mean,
 
 00:03:01.377 --> 00:03:03.877
 you have a number of really great stories
 
 00:03:03.978 --> 00:03:05.959
 in the book, as each revolution does.
 
 00:03:06.079 --> 00:03:08.038
 And one of the most interesting early on
 
 00:03:08.079 --> 00:03:10.539
 is the attack on James Wilson's house,
 
 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:12.759
 which becomes the siege of Fort Wilson.
 
 00:03:12.780 --> 00:03:14.479
 And Wilson becomes framer of the
 
 00:03:14.520 --> 00:03:15.640
 Constitution.
 
 00:03:15.841 --> 00:03:17.501
 And he is one of the few of
 
 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:19.020
 these guys who knows Adam Smith.
 
 00:03:19.040 --> 00:03:19.801
 He had gone to St.
 
 00:03:19.921 --> 00:03:20.322
 Andrews.
 
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 And here he finds his house under attack
 
 00:03:23.241 --> 00:03:26.082
 by the mob in Philadelphia.
 
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 Yes.
 
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 And of course, there is no Fort Wilson.
 
 00:03:30.687 --> 00:03:32.288
 Fort Wilson was his home.
 
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 And they called it the Battle of Fort
 
 00:03:34.491 --> 00:03:36.694
 Wilson because it was indeed a battle.
 
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 Cannon were being rolled into the street.
 
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 Militia was called out.
 
 00:03:40.539 --> 00:03:41.341
 People died.
 
 00:03:41.841 --> 00:03:43.522
 And Wilson was almost killed.
 
 00:03:44.377 --> 00:03:46.939
 And it really reflects how after the
 
 00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:47.781
 revolution,
 
 00:03:48.301 --> 00:03:49.362
 and this is a bit of a tale
 
 00:03:49.383 --> 00:03:50.223
 of two cities,
 
 00:03:50.263 --> 00:03:54.007
 Philadelphia was about to go the way of
 
 00:03:54.086 --> 00:03:54.586
 Paris.
 
 00:03:55.467 --> 00:03:56.628
 And then it stopped.
 
 00:03:57.370 --> 00:03:59.912
 And it stopped after the ratification of
 
 00:03:59.951 --> 00:04:01.092
 the Constitution.
 
 00:04:03.335 --> 00:04:05.116
 The fact is that the Constitution was not
 
 00:04:05.157 --> 00:04:07.459
 particularly popular in Pennsylvania.
 
 00:04:07.538 --> 00:04:09.099
 It barely was ratified.
 
 00:04:10.256 --> 00:04:13.919
 But you go from this horrific scene in
 
 00:04:13.939 --> 00:04:18.062
 James Wilson's home to, in a short order,
 
 00:04:18.483 --> 00:04:19.785
 relative stability.
 
 00:04:19.865 --> 00:04:22.627
 Now, there were later flare-ups,
 
 00:04:22.668 --> 00:04:23.148
 as we know.
 
 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:26.651
 But people seem to realize that the
 
 00:04:26.672 --> 00:04:30.254
 Madisonian Constitution gave them skin in
 
 00:04:30.295 --> 00:04:30.735
 the game,
 
 00:04:30.774 --> 00:04:32.276
 that they didn't have to go into the
 
 00:04:32.377 --> 00:04:32.997
 streets.
 
 00:04:33.757 --> 00:04:36.439
 And James Wilson is a wonderful figure in
 
 00:04:36.459 --> 00:04:37.199
 that sense.
 
 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:37.879
 You know,
 
 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.201
 I complain in the book that his portrayal
 
 00:04:40.261 --> 00:04:42.161
 in what is otherwise a great musical,
 
 00:04:42.221 --> 00:04:45.083
 Seventeen Seventy Six, is grossly unfair.
 
 00:04:45.122 --> 00:04:47.543
 He's portrayed as a weakling and a bit
 
 00:04:47.564 --> 00:04:48.163
 of a dummy.
 
 00:04:49.384 --> 00:04:50.865
 He was anything but.
 
 00:04:50.985 --> 00:04:52.966
 He was an incredibly courageous and
 
 00:04:53.026 --> 00:04:54.627
 principled person.
 
 00:04:56.430 --> 00:04:57.951
 Do you think you empathize with him more
 
 00:04:57.992 --> 00:05:01.574
 because you also are a law professor?
 
 00:05:02.134 --> 00:05:02.776
 You know,
 
 00:05:02.836 --> 00:05:06.718
 it's funny because there are some figures
 
 00:05:06.858 --> 00:05:08.199
 that are highlighted in the book.
 
 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:10.201
 The most prominent is Thomas Paine.
 
 00:05:11.903 --> 00:05:14.685
 But James Wilson does attract a great deal
 
 00:05:14.704 --> 00:05:16.065
 of attention in the book.
 
 00:05:16.865 --> 00:05:19.148
 And maybe I do identify with him,
 
 00:05:19.208 --> 00:05:22.891
 but you certainly cannot help but be
 
 00:05:22.951 --> 00:05:23.752
 sympathetic.
 
 00:05:25.252 --> 00:05:27.535
 Here's a person who was literally hounded
 
 00:05:27.995 --> 00:05:29.016
 into hiding.
 
 00:05:31.017 --> 00:05:33.158
 He was actually hid in the attic of
 
 00:05:33.259 --> 00:05:33.779
 friends,
 
 00:05:34.180 --> 00:05:35.680
 otherwise he would have been killed.
 
 00:05:36.341 --> 00:05:39.444
 And you have this great person who never
 
 00:05:39.524 --> 00:05:41.665
 lost faith in democracy,
 
 00:05:42.286 --> 00:05:44.369
 even as he was hounded from home to
 
 00:05:44.428 --> 00:05:44.709
 home.
 
 00:05:45.987 --> 00:05:47.026
 Yeah, that's true.
 
 00:05:47.187 --> 00:05:49.247
 And he becomes during the debate over
 
 00:05:49.288 --> 00:05:50.228
 ratification,
 
 00:05:50.269 --> 00:05:52.410
 really a lightning rod for opposition.
 
 00:05:52.589 --> 00:05:52.910
 Mr.
 
 00:05:52.949 --> 00:05:55.930
 Wilson is because he gives a speech that
 
 00:05:56.230 --> 00:05:57.791
 Thomas Jefferson said was good for the
 
 00:05:57.971 --> 00:05:58.471
 audience.
 
 00:05:58.531 --> 00:05:59.391
 It was intended.
 
 00:05:59.512 --> 00:06:01.112
 He thinks a bunch of Philadelphia lawyers,
 
 00:06:01.533 --> 00:06:02.713
 but won't do for Americans.
 
 00:06:02.733 --> 00:06:04.213
 It's argument of why we don't need a
 
 00:06:04.233 --> 00:06:04.913
 Bill of Rights,
 
 00:06:04.934 --> 00:06:08.875
 which Thomas Paine is also an interesting
 
 00:06:08.915 --> 00:06:09.336
 figure.
 
 00:06:09.375 --> 00:06:10.456
 And he keeps saying that
 
 00:06:12.505 --> 00:06:13.826
 You wish you could like him,
 
 00:06:14.026 --> 00:06:17.228
 but he is a contrarian throughout his
 
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 life.
 
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 You know,
 
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 Bob Payne is probably the single most
 
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 interesting historical figure I've ever
 
 00:06:22.851 --> 00:06:23.312
 researched.
 
 00:06:23.353 --> 00:06:25.733
 I became obsessed with him for about six
 
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 years and I drove my children crazy.
 
 00:06:29.156 --> 00:06:33.019
 And he's just endlessly interesting.
 
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 He is a contrarian.
 
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 You know,
 
 00:06:35.401 --> 00:06:36.963
 the quote you gave is actually from one
 
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 of my favorite film noir movies where
 
 00:06:39.564 --> 00:06:42.507
 Robert Ryan tells his great femme fatale,
 
 00:06:42.586 --> 00:06:44.269
 Joan Fontaine, you know,
 
 00:06:45.050 --> 00:06:46.189
 I love you so much.
 
 00:06:46.290 --> 00:06:47.512
 I only wish I liked you.
 
 00:06:47.531 --> 00:06:47.711
 Yeah.
 
 00:06:48.192 --> 00:06:50.692
 And I sort of feel that way about
 
 00:06:50.713 --> 00:06:50.973
 Payne.
 
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 Payne is difficult to like.
 
 00:06:53.254 --> 00:06:56.415
 He died virtually alone with no real
 
 00:06:56.576 --> 00:06:56.956
 friends.
 
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 In the book,
 
 00:06:57.896 --> 00:07:00.377
 I quote how Benjamin Franklin's daughter
 
 00:07:00.437 --> 00:07:00.718
 said,
 
 00:07:01.158 --> 00:07:02.899
 it would have been better if he died
 
 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:05.120
 after Common Sense was published.
 
 00:07:05.540 --> 00:07:07.062
 And I know she was one of his
 
 00:07:07.141 --> 00:07:07.701
 friends.
 
 00:07:08.122 --> 00:07:09.062
 So, you know,
 
 00:07:09.122 --> 00:07:12.204
 it gives you an idea of who this
 
 00:07:12.264 --> 00:07:12.464
 was.
 
 00:07:12.824 --> 00:07:14.386
 But Thomas Payne was...
 
 00:07:16.826 --> 00:07:18.206
 I would say arguably the most
 
 00:07:18.307 --> 00:07:20.687
 revolutionary of the American Revolution,
 
 00:07:21.187 --> 00:07:23.829
 but he was also incredibly principled and
 
 00:07:23.908 --> 00:07:28.230
 courageous and charitable and also
 
 00:07:28.290 --> 00:07:30.151
 obnoxious and reckless.
 
 00:07:31.233 --> 00:07:33.134
 He was all of those things.
 
 00:07:34.134 --> 00:07:35.997
 But he may have been ultimately the most
 
 00:07:36.057 --> 00:07:38.439
 honest of all of the early figures.
 
 00:07:38.778 --> 00:07:41.341
 The reason I've spent so much time on
 
 00:07:41.380 --> 00:07:43.923
 Thomas Paine is he's one of two central
 
 00:07:43.963 --> 00:07:45.625
 figures that played roles in both
 
 00:07:45.685 --> 00:07:47.805
 Revolution, the other being Lafayette.
 
 00:07:47.826 --> 00:07:48.247
 Yeah.
 
 00:07:49.363 --> 00:07:52.966
 And what fascinated me about Paine is that
 
 00:07:53.005 --> 00:07:55.968
 Paine was not enthusiastic about those
 
 00:07:56.067 --> 00:07:58.350
 elements I talked about earlier that made
 
 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:02.172
 our revolution more stable and allowed it
 
 00:08:02.211 --> 00:08:04.494
 to survive,
 
 00:08:04.553 --> 00:08:07.295
 where in France the revolution led to
 
 00:08:07.334 --> 00:08:07.776
 tyranny.
 
 00:08:08.555 --> 00:08:11.718
 And Paine was not an advocate of those
 
 00:08:11.798 --> 00:08:14.879
 Madisonian auxiliary precautions,
 
 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:15.620
 as they were called.
 
 00:08:16.281 --> 00:08:18.463
 And he went to Paris very much in
 
 00:08:18.523 --> 00:08:19.805
 line with the Jacobins,
 
 00:08:19.845 --> 00:08:22.326
 that he wanted more direct democracy.
 
 00:08:23.708 --> 00:08:25.610
 And it came damn near to killing him.
 
 00:08:26.011 --> 00:08:28.372
 And to Paine's credit,
 
 00:08:29.033 --> 00:08:30.774
 he recognized that he was wrong.
 
 00:08:30.814 --> 00:08:32.376
 He changed some of his views.
 
 00:08:33.197 --> 00:08:34.879
 But he came within twenty four hours of
 
 00:08:34.918 --> 00:08:35.779
 being guillotined.
 
 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:37.402
 It was a hard lesson to learn.
 
 00:08:38.966 --> 00:08:39.086
 Yeah,
 
 00:08:39.106 --> 00:08:40.727
 he's in prison for ten months and it's
 
 00:08:40.807 --> 00:08:42.548
 only because they open the door to let
 
 00:08:42.607 --> 00:08:44.589
 in air the guards don't see the chalk
 
 00:08:44.609 --> 00:08:46.208
 marks that he has to do to be
 
 00:08:46.249 --> 00:08:46.849
 taken off.
 
 00:08:47.688 --> 00:08:50.909
 And then he does defend the king by
 
 00:08:50.929 --> 00:08:53.350
 saying you should exile him,
 
 00:08:53.410 --> 00:08:55.051
 send him to America where he can learn
 
 00:08:55.071 --> 00:08:56.890
 the proper principles of government.
 
 00:08:57.051 --> 00:08:58.731
 It's a very courageous thing to say in
 
 00:08:58.751 --> 00:09:00.711
 this assembly that's going to behead
 
 00:09:00.792 --> 00:09:03.192
 anyone who has anything good to say about
 
 00:09:03.273 --> 00:09:03.732
 monarchy.
 
 00:09:04.453 --> 00:09:05.335
 No, it's true.
 
 00:09:05.434 --> 00:09:09.456
 And it is funny that Paine really can
 
 00:09:09.517 --> 00:09:11.599
 make enemies faster than anyone in
 
 00:09:11.698 --> 00:09:12.219
 history.
 
 00:09:12.700 --> 00:09:12.899
 You know,
 
 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:15.642
 he was greeted as a virtual deity of
 
 00:09:15.701 --> 00:09:16.442
 democracy.
 
 00:09:16.481 --> 00:09:19.203
 He was made a member of the National
 
 00:09:19.244 --> 00:09:19.644
 Assembly,
 
 00:09:19.663 --> 00:09:21.044
 even though he didn't speak French.
 
 00:09:21.645 --> 00:09:24.226
 But he immediately began to call out the
 
 00:09:24.287 --> 00:09:25.087
 Jacobins.
 
 00:09:25.748 --> 00:09:27.750
 And he was associated with the more
 
 00:09:27.870 --> 00:09:29.750
 moderate wing of the Jacobins,
 
 00:09:29.791 --> 00:09:30.711
 the Girondins.
 
 00:09:31.412 --> 00:09:34.173
 And he watched as the Girondins was
 
 00:09:34.692 --> 00:09:36.113
 eradicated by the Mao,
 
 00:09:36.352 --> 00:09:37.513
 the more radical wing.
 
 00:09:37.913 --> 00:09:38.514
 And in the book,
 
 00:09:38.594 --> 00:09:41.374
 I talk about how in the end of
 
 00:09:41.413 --> 00:09:42.413
 this process,
 
 00:09:42.453 --> 00:09:44.914
 he was in an inn where he had
 
 00:09:44.934 --> 00:09:47.575
 taken shelter with seven of the survivors.
 
 00:09:48.216 --> 00:09:49.395
 And one by one,
 
 00:09:50.135 --> 00:09:52.456
 a knock comes on the door and each
 
 00:09:52.515 --> 00:09:54.076
 of these people are taken away.
 
 00:09:54.116 --> 00:09:54.756
 And then finally,
 
 00:09:54.797 --> 00:09:56.437
 even the innkeeper is taken away,
 
 00:09:56.856 --> 00:09:59.918
 leaving Paine alone in this inn.
 
 00:10:00.738 --> 00:10:03.120
 And he eventually heard the knock on the
 
 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:03.519
 door.
 
 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:06.381
 It was taken to the Luxembourg Palace
 
 00:10:06.822 --> 00:10:07.363
 prison.
 
 00:10:08.144 --> 00:10:09.063
 And, you know,
 
 00:10:09.445 --> 00:10:11.385
 the only thing he took was a copy
 
 00:10:11.466 --> 00:10:12.606
 of The Rights of Man,
 
 00:10:13.368 --> 00:10:15.708
 which he had just finished.
 
 00:10:15.749 --> 00:10:16.330
 That's amazing.
 
 00:10:16.690 --> 00:10:18.311
 We're talking with Jonathan Turley,
 
 00:10:18.331 --> 00:10:20.352
 whose new book is Rage in the Republic,
 
 00:10:20.393 --> 00:10:22.575
 The Unfinished Story of the American
 
 00:10:22.634 --> 00:10:23.315
 Revolution,
 
 00:10:23.916 --> 00:10:25.976
 which looks at both the American and
 
 00:10:26.076 --> 00:10:27.258
 French revolutions.
 
 00:10:27.337 --> 00:10:29.419
 And we've been talking about Thomas Paine.
 
 00:10:29.960 --> 00:10:32.863
 He is a central figure in both of
 
 00:10:32.903 --> 00:10:33.202
 these.
 
 00:10:33.643 --> 00:10:35.384
 And Paine and John Adams, of course,
 
 00:10:35.865 --> 00:10:38.025
 don't that they have a long-running
 
 00:10:38.086 --> 00:10:40.767
 dispute but also gubernator morris and you
 
 00:10:40.807 --> 00:10:43.368
 suggest you know pain had attacked morris
 
 00:10:43.388 --> 00:10:45.048
 and robert morris for the connections with
 
 00:10:45.109 --> 00:10:47.850
 silas dean in the which may be why
 
 00:10:48.191 --> 00:10:50.412
 morris really slow walk might be putting
 
 00:10:50.432 --> 00:10:52.873
 it too nicely pain's request to help the
 
 00:10:52.932 --> 00:10:54.673
 united states have the united states help
 
 00:10:54.714 --> 00:10:56.634
 him get out of prison and morris says
 
 00:10:56.653 --> 00:10:57.754
 well he's really not a citizen
 
 00:10:59.126 --> 00:10:59.788
 That's right.
 
 00:10:59.908 --> 00:11:02.390
 And the fascinating aspect to this is that
 
 00:11:02.410 --> 00:11:04.754
 was one of the most damaging things that
 
 00:11:04.793 --> 00:11:05.475
 Paine did.
 
 00:11:06.255 --> 00:11:08.558
 He was never really embraced by many of
 
 00:11:08.578 --> 00:11:09.681
 the other founders.
 
 00:11:09.701 --> 00:11:11.322
 They preferred figures like Thomas
 
 00:11:11.363 --> 00:11:12.183
 Jefferson, you know,
 
 00:11:12.244 --> 00:11:15.227
 tall and handsome and erudite and educated
 
 00:11:15.827 --> 00:11:16.668
 and a slave owner.
 
 00:11:17.570 --> 00:11:18.671
 You know,
 
 00:11:18.750 --> 00:11:21.991
 Paine was vehemently against slavery.
 
 00:11:22.692 --> 00:11:24.413
 He was largely self-educated.
 
 00:11:24.874 --> 00:11:26.695
 He gave most of the money away.
 
 00:11:27.495 --> 00:11:29.855
 He was responsible for the first world
 
 00:11:29.895 --> 00:11:30.537
 bestseller,
 
 00:11:30.576 --> 00:11:32.538
 and he basically gave all the money away.
 
 00:11:33.971 --> 00:11:35.152
 And, you know,
 
 00:11:35.172 --> 00:11:37.092
 he was not readily embraced for that.
 
 00:11:37.153 --> 00:11:38.572
 He was also viewed as a John had
 
 00:11:38.613 --> 00:11:40.774
 come lately by people like John Adams.
 
 00:11:40.835 --> 00:11:41.154
 Remember,
 
 00:11:41.195 --> 00:11:43.196
 he arrived in the United States just two
 
 00:11:43.296 --> 00:11:45.116
 years before the Declaration of
 
 00:11:45.157 --> 00:11:45.817
 Independence.
 
 00:11:46.577 --> 00:11:51.220
 So the attacks on the two Morrises really
 
 00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:54.902
 alienated what friends he had left.
 
 00:11:55.761 --> 00:11:57.964
 The fascinating thing is that he appears
 
 00:11:58.004 --> 00:12:00.105
 to have been correct about Dean.
 
 00:12:01.306 --> 00:12:04.649
 Even Dean's allies later admitted that he
 
 00:12:04.668 --> 00:12:07.571
 was a scoundrel and he died outside of
 
 00:12:07.591 --> 00:12:08.272
 the country.
 
 00:12:09.432 --> 00:12:10.432
 Even though his hometown,
 
 00:12:10.472 --> 00:12:12.894
 the United States, still honors him.
 
 00:12:13.556 --> 00:12:18.538
 But the other thing that alienated him was
 
 00:12:18.719 --> 00:12:20.541
 his attack on George Washington.
 
 00:12:20.620 --> 00:12:20.841
 Right.
 
 00:12:21.201 --> 00:12:23.524
 after his imprisonment in Paris.
 
 00:12:24.105 --> 00:12:25.687
 And as I say in the book,
 
 00:12:26.327 --> 00:12:30.332
 pain is a difficult study.
 
 00:12:31.274 --> 00:12:33.397
 For a person who wrote so much,
 
 00:12:34.418 --> 00:12:37.282
 it's very hard to penetrate the true pain,
 
 00:12:37.302 --> 00:12:38.163
 to understand
 
 00:12:39.465 --> 00:12:41.446
 who he was on a personal level.
 
 00:12:41.907 --> 00:12:45.349
 Paine was brilliant about humanity,
 
 00:12:45.708 --> 00:12:47.509
 but he was clueless about humans.
 
 00:12:47.529 --> 00:12:51.273
 And you want to know more about why.
 
 00:12:51.832 --> 00:12:54.715
 But the closest you get to stripping all
 
 00:12:54.794 --> 00:12:57.817
 of that away are his letters from
 
 00:12:57.897 --> 00:13:01.720
 Luxembourg about George Washington.
 
 00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:03.841
 It was not just that Morris,
 
 00:13:03.860 --> 00:13:05.822
 who was the minister,
 
 00:13:06.543 --> 00:13:07.943
 the American minister in Paris,
 
 00:13:09.465 --> 00:13:10.566
 who abandoned him.
 
 00:13:10.806 --> 00:13:13.028
 It was George Washington who abandoned
 
 00:13:13.048 --> 00:13:13.168
 him.
 
 00:13:13.207 --> 00:13:14.729
 And he had written repeatedly to
 
 00:13:14.769 --> 00:13:16.311
 Washington who didn't respond.
 
 00:13:17.071 --> 00:13:20.573
 And Paine has a special relationship with
 
 00:13:20.614 --> 00:13:21.274
 Washington.
 
 00:13:22.255 --> 00:13:23.976
 It's almost a father-son relationship,
 
 00:13:24.037 --> 00:13:26.318
 even though Paine was older than many of
 
 00:13:26.339 --> 00:13:29.501
 the people of his generation who were
 
 00:13:29.522 --> 00:13:30.422
 among the leadership.
 
 00:13:30.461 --> 00:13:31.582
 But I...
 
 00:13:32.864 --> 00:13:35.426
 He believed that Washington and he had
 
 00:13:35.446 --> 00:13:36.206
 this special relation.
 
 00:13:36.225 --> 00:13:38.227
 It was Washington that asked him to write,
 
 00:13:38.248 --> 00:13:39.548
 to rally his troops.
 
 00:13:39.629 --> 00:13:42.311
 It was Washington that credited the common
 
 00:13:42.410 --> 00:13:44.432
 sense with the spark of the revolution.
 
 00:13:45.232 --> 00:13:46.634
 And then there was silence.
 
 00:13:46.754 --> 00:13:51.716
 And it clearly injured pain in a way
 
 00:13:51.736 --> 00:13:57.942
 that we get our only glimpse of this
 
 00:13:57.981 --> 00:14:02.085
 sort of deep sense of wounding.
 
 00:14:03.586 --> 00:14:03.905
 Remember,
 
 00:14:04.306 --> 00:14:05.706
 when Paine came to the United States,
 
 00:14:05.746 --> 00:14:07.408
 he had literally failed in everything he
 
 00:14:07.447 --> 00:14:07.989
 attempted.
 
 00:14:08.048 --> 00:14:09.850
 He had been fired from every major job
 
 00:14:09.870 --> 00:14:10.330
 he held.
 
 00:14:10.691 --> 00:14:13.192
 Every business he started went bankrupt.
 
 00:14:13.472 --> 00:14:15.354
 His marriages were failures,
 
 00:14:15.413 --> 00:14:17.034
 either death or divorce.
 
 00:14:18.056 --> 00:14:19.317
 He was an utter failure.
 
 00:14:20.636 --> 00:14:23.359
 And he came to the United States and
 
 00:14:23.379 --> 00:14:25.380
 sort of reinvented himself.
 
 00:14:25.400 --> 00:14:26.721
 And
 
 00:14:29.081 --> 00:14:30.543
 In all of that process,
 
 00:14:30.623 --> 00:14:33.744
 I think he became somewhat hardened.
 
 00:14:33.783 --> 00:14:36.085
 He was sort of a hardened silo of
 
 00:14:36.105 --> 00:14:36.625
 a man.
 
 00:14:37.945 --> 00:14:39.525
 Even his friends, I don't think,
 
 00:14:39.605 --> 00:14:41.826
 penetrated that.
 
 00:14:41.865 --> 00:14:44.047
 But those letters about Washington and his
 
 00:14:44.126 --> 00:14:46.268
 later public attacks of Washington,
 
 00:14:47.048 --> 00:14:50.529
 are probably the most personal that you'll
 
 00:14:50.570 --> 00:14:51.870
 see from Thomas Paine.
 
 00:14:51.890 --> 00:14:51.971
 Yeah.
 
 00:14:53.091 --> 00:14:55.253
 And he had dedicated The Rights of Man
 
 00:14:55.332 --> 00:14:56.433
 to Washington,
 
 00:14:56.594 --> 00:14:58.455
 and it was through Paine that Washington
 
 00:14:58.514 --> 00:15:00.856
 receives the key to the Bastille after its
 
 00:15:00.897 --> 00:15:01.297
 storm.
 
 00:15:01.356 --> 00:15:03.818
 So we really see he still feels he
 
 00:15:03.839 --> 00:15:04.918
 has this relationship,
 
 00:15:04.958 --> 00:15:07.120
 but then there's silence from Washington.
 
 00:15:07.160 --> 00:15:09.361
 It takes him a year to respond to
 
 00:15:09.422 --> 00:15:10.222
 The Rights of Man.
 
 00:15:10.682 --> 00:15:11.123
 That's right.
 
 00:15:11.143 --> 00:15:12.984
 And Washington clearly didn't like the
 
 00:15:13.024 --> 00:15:13.764
 dedication.
 
 00:15:14.303 --> 00:15:15.183
 The dedication,
 
 00:15:15.224 --> 00:15:17.904
 the Rights of Man was a very controversial
 
 00:15:17.945 --> 00:15:18.544
 publication,
 
 00:15:19.044 --> 00:15:21.586
 arguably his most controversial,
 
 00:15:21.706 --> 00:15:23.385
 and Washington did not like it.
 
 00:15:23.566 --> 00:15:25.726
 He had a lot of people whispering,
 
 00:15:26.167 --> 00:15:27.826
 including Morris in his ear,
 
 00:15:27.947 --> 00:15:30.548
 that this was alienating people we're
 
 00:15:30.607 --> 00:15:31.768
 dealing with in Europe.
 
 00:15:32.288 --> 00:15:35.249
 yeah yeah i suspect paine's next book
 
 00:15:35.308 --> 00:15:37.929
 though the age of reason also where he
 
 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:40.910
 attacks christianity and revealed religion
 
 00:15:41.030 --> 00:15:43.731
 also that doesn't win him yes that's true
 
 00:15:43.751 --> 00:15:48.553
 that is true yes of course um madison
 
 00:15:48.594 --> 00:15:50.333
 is of course there's another figure that
 
 00:15:50.474 --> 00:15:52.355
 appears less in the book but is really
 
 00:15:52.514 --> 00:15:55.336
 so essential to creating this this system
 
 00:15:55.355 --> 00:15:55.515
 that
 
 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.602
 really isn't a fan of at first,
 
 00:15:59.623 --> 00:16:02.125
 the bicameral legislature with checks and
 
 00:16:02.144 --> 00:16:03.206
 these other things.
 
 00:16:03.245 --> 00:16:04.246
 As you say,
 
 00:16:05.368 --> 00:16:08.150
 the real polarity you stress between the
 
 00:16:08.191 --> 00:16:10.312
 American and French revolutions is the
 
 00:16:10.393 --> 00:16:12.894
 French revolution wants to have the
 
 00:16:13.034 --> 00:16:15.337
 general will speaking through the
 
 00:16:15.378 --> 00:16:15.957
 assembly,
 
 00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:18.059
 whereas Madison creates a system where
 
 00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:20.422
 factions will be actually empowered to
 
 00:16:20.461 --> 00:16:21.202
 challenge each other.
 
 00:16:22.317 --> 00:16:22.778
 That's right.
 
 00:16:22.798 --> 00:16:22.977
 I mean,
 
 00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:25.440
 the French terror was really brought about
 
 00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.782
 with this sort of Rousseau-ian naivete
 
 00:16:27.802 --> 00:16:32.284
 that the people like Robespierre really
 
 00:16:32.325 --> 00:16:34.486
 took hold of.
 
 00:16:34.547 --> 00:16:35.847
 Rousseau was a beautiful writer,
 
 00:16:35.908 --> 00:16:38.188
 but I personally think he had an awful
 
 00:16:38.249 --> 00:16:42.371
 concept of government and the theory of
 
 00:16:42.412 --> 00:16:42.893
 government.
 
 00:16:43.432 --> 00:16:45.453
 And he truly believed that people are
 
 00:16:45.534 --> 00:16:47.855
 good, and if you give them power,
 
 00:16:48.135 --> 00:16:49.817
 therefore government will be good.
 
 00:16:50.077 --> 00:16:50.177
 Right.
 
 00:16:50.658 --> 00:16:53.143
 And it was precisely the opposite of what
 
 00:16:53.182 --> 00:16:55.908
 the founders believed about the tendency
 
 00:16:56.008 --> 00:16:58.511
 of democracies to become mobocracies.
 
 00:16:59.673 --> 00:17:01.738
 I am viewed as a Madisonian scholar,
 
 00:17:01.758 --> 00:17:03.421
 and I do talk about Madison in the
 
 00:17:03.461 --> 00:17:03.541
 book.
 
 00:17:04.461 --> 00:17:05.622
 but not as much as Paine,
 
 00:17:05.642 --> 00:17:07.162
 largely because I've written a lot about
 
 00:17:07.201 --> 00:17:08.343
 him before.
 
 00:17:08.962 --> 00:17:13.184
 But I do juxtapose the two individuals
 
 00:17:13.224 --> 00:17:16.365
 because Thomas Paine was the righteous
 
 00:17:16.486 --> 00:17:18.467
 rage of the American Revolution.
 
 00:17:18.606 --> 00:17:22.048
 It was his voice that penetrated
 
 00:17:22.128 --> 00:17:23.630
 throughout the colonies.
 
 00:17:24.609 --> 00:17:25.871
 He was, in my view,
 
 00:17:25.911 --> 00:17:27.990
 correctly called the penman of the
 
 00:17:28.030 --> 00:17:29.071
 American Revolution.
 
 00:17:30.321 --> 00:17:34.125
 James Madison was that pious logic where
 
 00:17:34.865 --> 00:17:37.409
 Payne knew what it would take to move
 
 00:17:37.509 --> 00:17:39.290
 a people to revolution.
 
 00:17:40.011 --> 00:17:42.114
 Madison knew what it would take to move
 
 00:17:42.153 --> 00:17:43.996
 a revolution to a republic.
 
 00:17:44.355 --> 00:17:45.798
 And we needed both of them.
 
 00:17:45.817 --> 00:17:46.398
 Right, right.
 
 00:17:46.419 --> 00:17:47.259
 That's good.
 
 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:47.380
 And...
 
 00:17:50.022 --> 00:17:53.526
 another of the fascinating pieces in the
 
 00:17:53.546 --> 00:17:56.688
 book is your attention to adam smith and
 
 00:17:56.729 --> 00:17:59.570
 his ideas of course the um wealth of
 
 00:17:59.611 --> 00:18:03.713
 nations is published in and it become the
 
 00:18:03.913 --> 00:18:05.536
 economic ideas becomes one of the real
 
 00:18:05.576 --> 00:18:08.178
 underpinnings for the american polity for
 
 00:18:08.198 --> 00:18:11.339
 the next century or so and uh how
 
 00:18:11.539 --> 00:18:14.282
 why does smith have such a resonance among
 
 00:18:14.363 --> 00:18:16.403
 the americans who are forming their new
 
 00:18:16.443 --> 00:18:17.125
 government do you think
 
 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:18.680
 You know, Bob,
 
 00:18:18.700 --> 00:18:21.742
 that was one of the least appreciated
 
 00:18:21.903 --> 00:18:24.125
 aspects of the American Revolution even
 
 00:18:24.164 --> 00:18:24.884
 today.
 
 00:18:26.787 --> 00:18:28.689
 When Wealth of Nations came out,
 
 00:18:28.709 --> 00:18:31.090
 it was not a great hit in Great
 
 00:18:31.111 --> 00:18:31.431
 Britain.
 
 00:18:31.830 --> 00:18:33.172
 It was a great hit here.
 
 00:18:33.412 --> 00:18:33.613
 You know,
 
 00:18:33.653 --> 00:18:36.835
 the founders immediately recognized that
 
 00:18:36.894 --> 00:18:39.176
 his economic theories were the perfect
 
 00:18:39.196 --> 00:18:41.019
 companion for their political theories.
 
 00:18:41.578 --> 00:18:43.000
 The American Revolution, in my view,
 
 00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:45.082
 is the first true Enlightenment
 
 00:18:45.142 --> 00:18:45.782
 revolution.
 
 00:18:46.563 --> 00:18:50.726
 And the framers believed in liberty.
 
 00:18:50.746 --> 00:18:50.945
 You know,
 
 00:18:50.965 --> 00:18:52.346
 the Declaration of Independence doesn't
 
 00:18:52.366 --> 00:18:54.167
 refer to democracy once it refers to
 
 00:18:54.228 --> 00:18:54.667
 liberty.
 
 00:18:55.327 --> 00:18:56.588
 And they did.
 
 00:18:56.788 --> 00:18:59.270
 They believe that you could not truly be
 
 00:18:59.471 --> 00:19:02.392
 free unless you were also economically
 
 00:19:02.452 --> 00:19:02.732
 free.
 
 00:19:02.813 --> 00:19:04.894
 And suddenly you have this book.
 
 00:19:05.034 --> 00:19:07.934
 that talks about free markets and how the
 
 00:19:07.994 --> 00:19:11.755
 economy can be driven by this invisible or
 
 00:19:11.795 --> 00:19:15.476
 hidden hand of people making choices on
 
 00:19:15.576 --> 00:19:18.876
 products that ultimately guide economic
 
 00:19:18.957 --> 00:19:19.537
 movements.
 
 00:19:19.977 --> 00:19:23.057
 That had an innate appeal to the founders
 
 00:19:23.097 --> 00:19:26.278
 that that economy should be driven by
 
 00:19:26.378 --> 00:19:27.778
 choice in that sense.
 
 00:19:28.499 --> 00:19:30.560
 And it was the perfect companion.
 
 00:19:30.681 --> 00:19:32.102
 And people, I think,
 
 00:19:32.142 --> 00:19:35.484
 fail to realize how much those free market
 
 00:19:35.525 --> 00:19:38.567
 principles played a role in the ascendancy
 
 00:19:38.606 --> 00:19:41.048
 of the American democratic system,
 
 00:19:41.470 --> 00:19:44.071
 that the combination brought enormous
 
 00:19:44.112 --> 00:19:46.153
 prosperity to the United States.
 
 00:19:46.473 --> 00:19:47.855
 And that's why in the book I talk
 
 00:19:47.894 --> 00:19:49.635
 about the need in the twenty first
 
 00:19:49.655 --> 00:19:50.136
 century.
 
 00:19:50.817 --> 00:19:53.038
 of preserving what I call a
 
 00:19:53.137 --> 00:19:55.278
 liberty-enhancing economy.
 
 00:19:55.719 --> 00:19:58.299
 Because many of the challenges that we're
 
 00:19:58.359 --> 00:19:58.880
 facing,
 
 00:19:58.940 --> 00:20:01.240
 including the combination of robotics and
 
 00:20:01.381 --> 00:20:02.721
 AI,
 
 00:20:02.800 --> 00:20:06.242
 are likely to produce greater subsidies
 
 00:20:06.303 --> 00:20:07.823
 for the unemployed,
 
 00:20:08.324 --> 00:20:10.703
 for a large portion of our population.
 
 00:20:11.184 --> 00:20:13.025
 And while that may be inevitable,
 
 00:20:13.945 --> 00:20:17.386
 the book raises a cautionary note
 
 00:20:17.866 --> 00:20:21.450
 that it is essential for our republic for
 
 00:20:21.529 --> 00:20:23.391
 citizens to be independent from the
 
 00:20:23.431 --> 00:20:26.173
 government for this republic to work as it
 
 00:20:26.232 --> 00:20:29.955
 is designed uh the charlestown town
 
 00:20:29.996 --> 00:20:32.017
 meeting said that to possess the fruits of
 
 00:20:32.057 --> 00:20:34.499
 his labor and insecurities the greatest
 
 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.701
 happiness man can enjoy that is seeing
 
 00:20:37.721 --> 00:20:41.384
 this is essential and even some we were
 
 00:20:41.443 --> 00:20:43.164
 talking with jonathan turley whose new
 
 00:20:43.205 --> 00:20:44.767
 book is rage in the republic the
 
 00:20:44.826 --> 00:20:45.247
 unfinished
 
 00:20:45.346 --> 00:20:47.808
 story of the American Revolution.
 
 00:20:48.709 --> 00:20:52.151
 And when you do have this very wonderful
 
 00:20:52.191 --> 00:20:53.672
 section on Adam Smith,
 
 00:20:53.711 --> 00:20:57.035
 you're talking about this true economic
 
 00:20:57.115 --> 00:20:58.955
 liberty, which he is espousing.
 
 00:20:59.296 --> 00:21:00.537
 And even someone like Hamilton,
 
 00:21:00.557 --> 00:21:03.138
 who wants to build a state and have
 
 00:21:03.159 --> 00:21:04.199
 things like tariffs,
 
 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.221
 he's also really closely studied Smith.
 
 00:21:09.038 --> 00:21:09.618
 That's right.
 
 00:21:09.699 --> 00:21:11.400
 And by the way, so did Paine.
 
 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:12.000
 You know,
 
 00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:14.619
 there's a lot of misconceptions about
 
 00:21:14.660 --> 00:21:14.940
 Paine.
 
 00:21:15.220 --> 00:21:16.500
 Paine believed in the free market.
 
 00:21:16.540 --> 00:21:20.842
 He also had early sort of examples of
 
 00:21:20.862 --> 00:21:23.321
 what we would call sort of a UBI
 
 00:21:23.382 --> 00:21:25.242
 or payments to people.
 
 00:21:25.843 --> 00:21:28.183
 So he was forward-looking in that sense,
 
 00:21:28.223 --> 00:21:30.284
 but he was a huge believer in the
 
 00:21:30.644 --> 00:21:33.025
 free market and economic independence of
 
 00:21:33.085 --> 00:21:33.904
 individuals.
 
 00:21:34.444 --> 00:21:37.665
 uh and across the board interestingly
 
 00:21:37.705 --> 00:21:41.326
 enough uh you had jeffersonians and
 
 00:21:41.567 --> 00:21:44.648
 federalists alike embracing smith's work
 
 00:21:44.669 --> 00:21:49.250
 yeah and smith also is a critic of
 
 00:21:49.289 --> 00:21:51.191
 the east india company and the rise of
 
 00:21:51.211 --> 00:21:53.412
 this conglomerate before the revolution
 
 00:21:53.432 --> 00:21:55.051
 which is and perhaps the east india
 
 00:21:55.092 --> 00:21:56.772
 company did cause the revolution
 
 00:21:57.133 --> 00:21:59.054
 inadvertently through parliament trying to
 
 00:21:59.114 --> 00:21:59.773
 subsidize it
 
 00:22:00.336 --> 00:22:00.976
 That's right.
 
 00:22:01.296 --> 00:22:05.017
 And the book looks at how the current
 
 00:22:05.037 --> 00:22:08.116
 conditions in some ways mirror the
 
 00:22:08.836 --> 00:22:10.238
 objections that Smith had,
 
 00:22:10.298 --> 00:22:12.377
 including what I call corporate feudalism,
 
 00:22:13.298 --> 00:22:16.578
 the sort of new versions of the East
 
 00:22:16.659 --> 00:22:17.519
 India Company.
 
 00:22:18.219 --> 00:22:20.259
 And we're looking at massive levels of
 
 00:22:20.338 --> 00:22:23.279
 power invested in companies from AI to
 
 00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:24.200
 social media.
 
 00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:26.359
 And the book sort of explores that.
 
 00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:26.599
 I mean,
 
 00:22:26.619 --> 00:22:28.861
 the book asks the question of whether...
 
 00:22:29.861 --> 00:22:32.623
 this American republic can survive the
 
 00:22:32.663 --> 00:22:33.824
 twenty first century,
 
 00:22:34.423 --> 00:22:36.505
 but really whether it can survive us.
 
 00:22:36.525 --> 00:22:40.067
 And it looks at what we will have
 
 00:22:40.106 --> 00:22:41.888
 to do to achieve that,
 
 00:22:42.288 --> 00:22:44.589
 because it's a dangerous conceit that
 
 00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:47.211
 we've lasted so long that it means we'll
 
 00:22:47.231 --> 00:22:49.153
 be here another two hundred fifty years.
 
 00:22:49.853 --> 00:22:51.875
 And I think Benjamin Franklin captured
 
 00:22:51.914 --> 00:22:54.736
 that moment when he said it's a republic
 
 00:22:54.796 --> 00:22:57.478
 if you can keep it.
 
 00:22:57.557 --> 00:22:58.659
 Are you optimistic?
 
 00:22:59.963 --> 00:23:00.964
 I am optimistic.
 
 00:23:01.045 --> 00:23:03.587
 I think that we have the perfect system
 
 00:23:03.627 --> 00:23:05.288
 to face what we are looking at.
 
 00:23:05.690 --> 00:23:07.932
 I don't downplay the challenges.
 
 00:23:08.092 --> 00:23:09.752
 I actually think these challenges are
 
 00:23:09.833 --> 00:23:13.777
 likely to cause really extreme changes
 
 00:23:13.817 --> 00:23:15.419
 politically and economically.
 
 00:23:15.598 --> 00:23:17.200
 I do not have a great deal of
 
 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:19.923
 faith in the EU, for example.
 
 00:23:19.982 --> 00:23:21.544
 The first half of this book is
 
 00:23:22.125 --> 00:23:22.724
 correct,
 
 00:23:23.085 --> 00:23:25.385
 then the EU is likely to collapse under
 
 00:23:25.425 --> 00:23:26.726
 these pressures because they have
 
 00:23:26.786 --> 00:23:29.267
 eliminated many of the very elements that
 
 00:23:29.287 --> 00:23:30.528
 the book identifies.
 
 00:23:31.347 --> 00:23:33.169
 But the real test for us,
 
 00:23:33.868 --> 00:23:35.388
 perhaps the real crisis,
 
 00:23:35.429 --> 00:23:37.170
 is not a constitutional crisis.
 
 00:23:37.950 --> 00:23:39.352
 It's a crisis of faith.
 
 00:23:39.432 --> 00:23:43.155
 We have many people today who are arguing
 
 00:23:43.236 --> 00:23:45.838
 for trashing the Constitution or making
 
 00:23:46.058 --> 00:23:47.580
 fundamental changes in some of the
 
 00:23:47.641 --> 00:23:49.663
 elements that I've identified in the book.
 
 00:23:50.663 --> 00:23:52.226
 That would, in my view,
 
 00:23:52.266 --> 00:23:54.327
 be an existential challenge here.
 
 00:23:55.028 --> 00:23:58.792
 But perhaps the greatest challenge that I
 
 00:23:58.853 --> 00:23:59.733
 raise in the book
 
 00:24:00.942 --> 00:24:03.444
 is our faith in each other.
 
 00:24:03.964 --> 00:24:09.130
 I quote a wonderful writer who wrote under
 
 00:24:09.691 --> 00:24:12.012
 the name of American Farmer.
 
 00:24:12.653 --> 00:24:14.115
 And it was a Frenchman by the name
 
 00:24:14.154 --> 00:24:15.016
 of Preve Coeur.
 
 00:24:15.856 --> 00:24:17.298
 And in his book,
 
 00:24:17.317 --> 00:24:18.739
 which was a hit in France,
 
 00:24:19.579 --> 00:24:22.663
 He tries to tell people about this
 
 00:24:22.702 --> 00:24:23.083
 country.
 
 00:24:23.143 --> 00:24:25.105
 We were a fascination of people.
 
 00:24:25.125 --> 00:24:27.767
 People couldn't understand how a nation
 
 00:24:27.807 --> 00:24:29.949
 composed of people from so many different
 
 00:24:29.969 --> 00:24:32.250
 places with so little in common with each
 
 00:24:32.330 --> 00:24:35.212
 other could suddenly not only form a
 
 00:24:35.313 --> 00:24:38.695
 people and a revolution, but around ideas,
 
 00:24:38.955 --> 00:24:41.979
 not around land or religion or any other
 
 00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:43.200
 traditional connections.
 
 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:45.520
 an Enlightenment revolution,
 
 00:24:46.361 --> 00:24:48.102
 which of course sort of captured that in
 
 00:24:48.122 --> 00:24:48.961
 the book and asked,
 
 00:24:49.642 --> 00:24:51.403
 what then is this America?
 
 00:24:52.304 --> 00:24:54.124
 And what I suggest in the book is
 
 00:24:54.324 --> 00:24:55.805
 we have to be able to answer that
 
 00:24:55.984 --> 00:24:58.405
 in this country or this republic won't
 
 00:24:58.465 --> 00:24:58.905
 last.
 
 00:24:59.467 --> 00:25:01.748
 What were we then and who are we
 
 00:25:01.827 --> 00:25:02.147
 now?
 
 00:25:02.807 --> 00:25:05.729
 it's a very difficult question and at a
 
 00:25:05.749 --> 00:25:07.369
 time but i call it an age of
 
 00:25:07.450 --> 00:25:09.871
 rage it's a question that makes people
 
 00:25:09.911 --> 00:25:12.511
 feel uncomfortable because in order to
 
 00:25:12.652 --> 00:25:14.833
 answer that question we are going to have
 
 00:25:14.873 --> 00:25:16.413
 to talk to each other we're going to
 
 00:25:16.453 --> 00:25:19.434
 have to not necessarily come together in
 
 00:25:19.515 --> 00:25:22.457
 commonality of youth but to come together
 
 00:25:22.497 --> 00:25:26.238
 in a commonality of identification that as
 
 00:25:26.278 --> 00:25:29.279
 americans we remain different we remain
 
 00:25:30.220 --> 00:25:33.421
 a remarkable experiment in governance.
 
 00:25:35.041 --> 00:25:37.603
 That is certainly something that Madison
 
 00:25:37.663 --> 00:25:40.723
 gets at in seeing that factions actually
 
 00:25:42.144 --> 00:25:43.664
 can play a positive role,
 
 00:25:44.545 --> 00:25:47.445
 having ambition check ambition,
 
 00:25:47.486 --> 00:25:48.586
 as someone said,
 
 00:25:48.646 --> 00:25:50.646
 and not saying that we'll let everyone
 
 00:25:50.707 --> 00:25:52.948
 free and everything will be great,
 
 00:25:53.028 --> 00:25:54.548
 but we'll let them free so they can
 
 00:25:55.048 --> 00:25:56.528
 work these things out without,
 
 00:25:56.729 --> 00:25:58.309
 as Franklin says in another speech in the
 
 00:25:58.369 --> 00:26:00.069
 Convention coming together for the purpose
 
 00:26:00.089 --> 00:26:01.550
 of cutting each other's throats.
 
 00:26:02.871 --> 00:26:03.490
 That's right.
 
 00:26:03.530 --> 00:26:05.372
 And I spent a lot of time on
 
 00:26:05.412 --> 00:26:08.212
 Madison's factions because you really see
 
 00:26:08.232 --> 00:26:09.712
 that play out in Paris.
 
 00:26:10.093 --> 00:26:12.814
 Paris was an example of what happens when
 
 00:26:12.834 --> 00:26:14.474
 you don't have a system that can deal
 
 00:26:14.515 --> 00:26:15.954
 with factional disputes.
 
 00:26:16.335 --> 00:26:18.115
 And what happens is that the factions kill
 
 00:26:18.135 --> 00:26:18.576
 each other.
 
 00:26:18.615 --> 00:26:21.236
 And so the mountain killed Desjardins and
 
 00:26:21.256 --> 00:26:22.696
 the mountain itself was killed.
 
 00:26:23.416 --> 00:26:26.299
 And the book actually starts with a quote
 
 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:28.080
 from a leading French writer from the
 
 00:26:28.122 --> 00:26:32.065
 revolution that says that revolutions like
 
 00:26:32.164 --> 00:26:33.987
 Saturn devour their own.
 
 00:26:34.827 --> 00:26:36.829
 And Paine watched that.
 
 00:26:37.069 --> 00:26:39.951
 He watched a revolution devour itself,
 
 00:26:39.991 --> 00:26:41.933
 devoured its central figures.
 
 00:26:42.734 --> 00:26:43.996
 We escaped that,
 
 00:26:44.215 --> 00:26:46.919
 which is the true miracle of Philadelphia.
 
 00:26:48.604 --> 00:26:49.444
 It really is.
 
 00:26:49.644 --> 00:26:50.464
 And, you know,
 
 00:26:50.505 --> 00:26:52.646
 you point out that the constitutional
 
 00:26:52.686 --> 00:26:55.067
 system provides these three essential
 
 00:26:55.367 --> 00:26:55.909
 safeguards.
 
 00:26:56.009 --> 00:26:58.009
 One is protecting individual rights and
 
 00:26:58.049 --> 00:27:01.071
 another is prohibiting concentrations of
 
 00:27:01.132 --> 00:27:02.712
 power, diffusing power,
 
 00:27:03.213 --> 00:27:05.275
 and then accommodating these factional
 
 00:27:05.434 --> 00:27:06.134
 interests.
 
 00:27:08.518 --> 00:27:12.142
 I'm wondering if you think that the idea
 
 00:27:12.201 --> 00:27:13.364
 of the rights and freedoms of the
 
 00:27:13.403 --> 00:27:14.945
 individual are something that's been
 
 00:27:15.026 --> 00:27:18.750
 eroded in the current American polity.
 
 00:27:20.705 --> 00:27:22.488
 I think that we have to be aware
 
 00:27:22.548 --> 00:27:25.309
 that the things that define us as a
 
 00:27:25.390 --> 00:27:26.991
 people are under attack.
 
 00:27:27.832 --> 00:27:29.213
 That includes free speech.
 
 00:27:29.834 --> 00:27:34.038
 And in the earlier book dealing with what
 
 00:27:34.077 --> 00:27:35.538
 I call the age of rage,
 
 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:37.901
 I note this is not our first age
 
 00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:38.622
 of rage.
 
 00:27:40.603 --> 00:27:42.085
 This country was born in rage.
 
 00:27:42.105 --> 00:27:43.965
 That's what the Boston Party was after
 
 00:27:43.986 --> 00:27:44.105
 all.
 
 00:27:44.405 --> 00:27:45.426
 It's an act of rage.
 
 00:27:46.067 --> 00:27:47.409
 And rage is an odd thing.
 
 00:27:48.009 --> 00:27:50.151
 If you agree with it, it's righteous.
 
 00:27:50.191 --> 00:27:51.832
 And if you don't, it's dangerous.
 
 00:27:52.532 --> 00:27:54.713
 But usually what happens is that the
 
 00:27:54.753 --> 00:27:56.875
 greatest danger to an age of rage is
 
 00:27:56.915 --> 00:27:58.257
 the response to it,
 
 00:27:58.277 --> 00:28:00.999
 where the government seeks to use that
 
 00:28:01.058 --> 00:28:02.540
 rage to limit rights,
 
 00:28:02.580 --> 00:28:03.981
 particularly free speech.
 
 00:28:04.561 --> 00:28:07.387
 And we're certainly seeing that more so in
 
 00:28:07.528 --> 00:28:09.792
 Europe where free speech isn't a free fall
 
 00:28:09.853 --> 00:28:13.078
 and in countries like United Kingdom and
 
 00:28:13.480 --> 00:28:14.561
 France and Germany.
 
 00:28:15.458 --> 00:28:18.121
 But that tide has reached our shore,
 
 00:28:18.901 --> 00:28:21.243
 and it adds to this sense of crisis
 
 00:28:21.304 --> 00:28:24.807
 of faith that really we've lost faith in
 
 00:28:24.846 --> 00:28:28.290
 each other because this is a system that
 
 00:28:28.351 --> 00:28:30.313
 requires something of a leap of faith.
 
 00:28:31.334 --> 00:28:32.954
 We have to have faith in our neighbors
 
 00:28:33.036 --> 00:28:34.336
 even if we disagree with them.
 
 00:28:35.483 --> 00:28:36.305
 Yeah.
 
 00:28:36.325 --> 00:28:38.865
 And we also have to come together for
 
 00:28:38.925 --> 00:28:41.448
 purposes of governing and purposes of
 
 00:28:41.508 --> 00:28:42.429
 doing things,
 
 00:28:42.509 --> 00:28:44.410
 even with people with whom we disagree.
 
 00:28:44.450 --> 00:28:48.272
 I think one of the failures we're seeing
 
 00:28:48.353 --> 00:28:50.013
 in Washington right now is that
 
 00:28:52.188 --> 00:28:53.308
 No, I think that's right.
 
 00:28:53.388 --> 00:28:55.589
 And in past ages of rage,
 
 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:58.152
 the rage has burned off over time.
 
 00:28:58.751 --> 00:28:59.532
 Quite frankly,
 
 00:28:59.593 --> 00:29:01.574
 we reach a point where we realize that
 
 00:29:01.614 --> 00:29:02.914
 we have become grotesque,
 
 00:29:03.476 --> 00:29:06.698
 that we have just given ourselves to hate.
 
 00:29:07.077 --> 00:29:09.799
 The rage has a narcotic effect.
 
 00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:10.539
 It's addictive.
 
 00:29:11.020 --> 00:29:12.000
 It's contagious.
 
 00:29:12.521 --> 00:29:15.083
 And what people won't admit from either
 
 00:29:15.143 --> 00:29:17.085
 party is that they like it.
 
 00:29:17.785 --> 00:29:20.166
 And you see that all around you.
 
 00:29:20.227 --> 00:29:22.669
 People are enjoying it too much because
 
 00:29:22.929 --> 00:29:24.671
 you have decent people that for the first
 
 00:29:24.730 --> 00:29:27.133
 time can hate completely,
 
 00:29:27.153 --> 00:29:28.874
 hate people they don't know,
 
 00:29:29.034 --> 00:29:30.516
 hate people they don't want to know.
 
 00:29:31.737 --> 00:29:34.558
 That tends to burn off with time if
 
 00:29:34.598 --> 00:29:36.861
 history is any example.
 
 00:29:36.881 --> 00:29:37.101
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:29:38.913 --> 00:29:40.414
 Well,
 
 00:29:40.434 --> 00:29:41.895
 there is so much in this book that
 
 00:29:41.935 --> 00:29:42.895
 we could talk about.
 
 00:29:43.016 --> 00:29:44.497
 We're talking with Jonathan Turley,
 
 00:29:44.537 --> 00:29:46.417
 whose new book is The Rage in the
 
 00:29:46.458 --> 00:29:46.978
 Republic,
 
 00:29:47.019 --> 00:29:49.519
 The Unfinished Story of the American
 
 00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:50.259
 Revolution.
 
 00:29:53.832 --> 00:29:54.952
 One of the things that comes up in
 
 00:29:54.972 --> 00:29:56.954
 the idea of the French Revolution is this
 
 00:29:57.015 --> 00:29:57.895
 idea of virtue,
 
 00:29:57.935 --> 00:29:59.636
 and each side talks about virtue.
 
 00:29:59.857 --> 00:30:00.137
 That is,
 
 00:30:00.538 --> 00:30:02.359
 the virtuous republic is one of the
 
 00:30:02.420 --> 00:30:04.582
 centerpieces of the idea behind the
 
 00:30:04.642 --> 00:30:06.123
 framers of the Constitution.
 
 00:30:06.683 --> 00:30:07.163
 And then, of course,
 
 00:30:07.203 --> 00:30:09.787
 the French also use virtue,
 
 00:30:09.846 --> 00:30:11.748
 but they have much different effects.
 
 00:30:13.413 --> 00:30:14.473
 No, that's very true.
 
 00:30:14.733 --> 00:30:18.654
 And the French Revolution is itself a
 
 00:30:18.694 --> 00:30:21.474
 great lesson because it shows the
 
 00:30:21.515 --> 00:30:24.895
 corruption of humanity that can come in
 
 00:30:24.935 --> 00:30:25.895
 these moments.
 
 00:30:26.375 --> 00:30:28.777
 If you read some of Robespierre's early
 
 00:30:28.817 --> 00:30:29.477
 writings,
 
 00:30:30.436 --> 00:30:32.317
 at the start of the Jacobin movement,
 
 00:30:32.356 --> 00:30:34.238
 you would think he was an ACLU lawyer.
 
 00:30:34.298 --> 00:30:37.577
 He talked about due process and protecting
 
 00:30:37.617 --> 00:30:38.458
 minority rights.
 
 00:30:38.798 --> 00:30:39.939
 Within a few years,
 
 00:30:39.959 --> 00:30:42.219
 he would be calling terror a virtue.
 
 00:30:43.098 --> 00:30:45.921
 and sending thousands to be guillotined.
 
 00:30:46.761 --> 00:30:51.125
 And there is a cathartic aspect to this
 
 00:30:51.164 --> 00:30:52.645
 that you sort of watch.
 
 00:30:52.685 --> 00:30:53.566
 And it's horrible.
 
 00:30:53.605 --> 00:30:56.028
 And the scenes I describe in the book
 
 00:30:56.107 --> 00:30:57.288
 are often horrible.
 
 00:30:58.128 --> 00:31:01.672
 But I wanted people to understand the sort
 
 00:31:01.692 --> 00:31:04.212
 of madness that can take hold in a
 
 00:31:04.252 --> 00:31:05.634
 system that doesn't have these
 
 00:31:05.693 --> 00:31:06.634
 precautions.
 
 00:31:07.234 --> 00:31:08.195
 And in some ways,
 
 00:31:08.695 --> 00:31:11.377
 I point to a turning point with Charlotte
 
 00:31:11.397 --> 00:31:11.959
 Corday,
 
 00:31:12.739 --> 00:31:16.319
 who was just an absolutely wonderful
 
 00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:17.299
 figure.
 
 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:20.080
 She was this beautiful young French woman
 
 00:31:20.121 --> 00:31:22.862
 who came to Paris with a murderous agenda.
 
 00:31:23.281 --> 00:31:25.301
 She decided that the only way to stop
 
 00:31:25.321 --> 00:31:27.643
 the killing was to kill Marat,
 
 00:31:27.682 --> 00:31:29.522
 who was one of the most loathsome
 
 00:31:29.563 --> 00:31:31.503
 creatures that came out of the French
 
 00:31:31.564 --> 00:31:32.163
 Revolution.
 
 00:31:33.084 --> 00:31:35.445
 And she was herself a Republican.
 
 00:31:36.567 --> 00:31:38.808
 She was associated more with the gendarme.
 
 00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:42.592
 But she decided that she had to stop
 
 00:31:42.632 --> 00:31:43.252
 the killing.
 
 00:31:43.893 --> 00:31:46.174
 And she did it in true French fashion.
 
 00:31:46.214 --> 00:31:48.396
 She got off the stage and had her
 
 00:31:48.436 --> 00:31:50.818
 hair done, put on a beautiful dress,
 
 00:31:50.858 --> 00:31:52.701
 bought a butcher's knife,
 
 00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:55.502
 and then plunged into the chest of Marat
 
 00:31:55.542 --> 00:31:58.645
 when he was in his bathtub.
 
 00:31:58.806 --> 00:31:59.967
 Her trial is...
 
 00:32:00.919 --> 00:32:05.261
 did seem to change the context.
 
 00:32:05.643 --> 00:32:08.045
 She was incredibly articulate and
 
 00:32:08.105 --> 00:32:08.944
 courageous.
 
 00:32:09.425 --> 00:32:11.406
 She didn't deny for a second what she
 
 00:32:11.446 --> 00:32:11.827
 had done.
 
 00:32:11.867 --> 00:32:12.127
 In fact,
 
 00:32:12.147 --> 00:32:14.390
 she sounded a lot like Robespierre and
 
 00:32:14.430 --> 00:32:14.950
 Marat.
 
 00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:16.270
 She kept on saying,
 
 00:32:16.570 --> 00:32:18.472
 what's one life if I'm saving the
 
 00:32:18.512 --> 00:32:19.534
 Republic, right?
 
 00:32:20.094 --> 00:32:21.934
 And so when she was executed,
 
 00:32:22.016 --> 00:32:25.577
 Robespierre and Danton were watching from
 
 00:32:25.678 --> 00:32:26.459
 a balcony, right?
 
 00:32:27.087 --> 00:32:31.349
 And they no doubt took notice that there
 
 00:32:31.410 --> 00:32:34.230
 was a difference in how the crowd was
 
 00:32:34.290 --> 00:32:36.132
 reacting to Corday,
 
 00:32:36.432 --> 00:32:39.794
 who showed tremendous courage standing on
 
 00:32:39.834 --> 00:32:40.513
 the scaffold.
 
 00:32:41.494 --> 00:32:43.055
 And within a short time,
 
 00:32:43.134 --> 00:32:45.175
 Danton would be standing right there and
 
 00:32:45.195 --> 00:32:45.895
 be guillotined,
 
 00:32:45.936 --> 00:32:48.037
 and then Robespierre himself would follow.
 
 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:52.560
 It's really such a sobering story about
 
 00:32:52.601 --> 00:32:56.863
 the French Revolution and comparing it
 
 00:32:56.903 --> 00:32:58.363
 with the American Revolution.
 
 00:32:58.522 --> 00:32:59.003
 And in fact,
 
 00:32:59.023 --> 00:33:00.624
 you compare the American Revolution with
 
 00:33:00.683 --> 00:33:02.704
 most revolutions since.
 
 00:33:03.285 --> 00:33:04.766
 And one of the points you make is
 
 00:33:04.786 --> 00:33:07.626
 that the American system is designed for
 
 00:33:07.666 --> 00:33:09.788
 revolutionary change without devolving
 
 00:33:09.847 --> 00:33:11.709
 into revolution.
 
 00:33:11.729 --> 00:33:12.368
 That's right.
 
 00:33:12.388 --> 00:33:13.529
 I mean, the thing is,
 
 00:33:13.970 --> 00:33:15.250
 what I say in the book,
 
 00:33:15.369 --> 00:33:16.611
 and the reason I have...
 
 00:33:17.708 --> 00:33:20.490
 such optimism for the twenty-first century
 
 00:33:21.351 --> 00:33:23.353
 is that we have the perfect system to
 
 00:33:23.413 --> 00:33:25.375
 adjust to changing conditions.
 
 00:33:25.875 --> 00:33:27.757
 This was a system designed for changing
 
 00:33:27.777 --> 00:33:28.196
 conditions.
 
 00:33:28.257 --> 00:33:29.939
 It was designed for bad times,
 
 00:33:30.019 --> 00:33:30.898
 not good times.
 
 00:33:30.939 --> 00:33:33.300
 It was written in a time like ours,
 
 00:33:34.221 --> 00:33:36.084
 where people were at each other's throats.
 
 00:33:36.124 --> 00:33:38.846
 It's a system designed to adapt and to
 
 00:33:38.945 --> 00:33:41.448
 move without changing the underlying
 
 00:33:41.489 --> 00:33:42.990
 constitutional order.
 
 00:33:43.309 --> 00:33:44.330
 And so what I say in the book
 
 00:33:44.411 --> 00:33:45.031
 is, yes,
 
 00:33:45.672 --> 00:33:47.653
 These are revolutionary times,
 
 00:33:48.075 --> 00:33:51.097
 but we remain a revolutionary people.
 
 00:33:51.778 --> 00:33:54.201
 I think we've been talking,
 
 00:33:54.662 --> 00:33:56.203
 there's probably much more we could say,
 
 00:33:56.243 --> 00:33:58.606
 but that's really a wonderful note to end
 
 00:33:59.448 --> 00:34:00.148
 on,
 
 00:34:00.209 --> 00:34:01.790
 unless there's more you would like to add.
 
 00:34:01.971 --> 00:34:02.711
 No, that's fine.
 
 00:34:03.907 --> 00:34:06.108
 We've been talking with Jonathan Turley,
 
 00:34:06.148 --> 00:34:09.931
 who is the Shapiro Chair for Public
 
 00:34:09.990 --> 00:34:11.592
 Interest Law at George Washington
 
 00:34:11.692 --> 00:34:15.673
 University and the author of Rage in the
 
 00:34:15.713 --> 00:34:16.175
 Republic.
 
 00:34:16.215 --> 00:34:17.996
 Your first book was The Indispensable
 
 00:34:18.056 --> 00:34:20.157
 Right About Free Speech and the First
 
 00:34:20.177 --> 00:34:20.797
 Amendment.
 
 00:34:20.817 --> 00:34:22.458
 You have a great section in here.
 
 00:34:22.838 --> 00:34:24.079
 Now I see that you don't like to
 
 00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:25.960
 repeat things you have already said from
 
 00:34:26.019 --> 00:34:27.400
 one book to another, which is...
 
 00:34:28.266 --> 00:34:31.226
 rare skill rage in the republic the
 
 00:34:31.347 --> 00:34:33.288
 unfinished story of the american
 
 00:34:33.327 --> 00:34:34.967
 revolution thank you so much for joining
 
 00:34:35.027 --> 00:34:37.108
 us this morning it's been a great pleasure
 
 00:34:37.148 --> 00:34:40.010
 bob thank you and so i want to
 
 00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:42.090
 thank you and i thank jonathan lane our
 
 00:34:42.210 --> 00:34:44.251
 producer the man behind the curtain and if
 
 00:34:44.271 --> 00:34:46.771
 you want some of our revolution two fifty
 
 00:34:46.831 --> 00:34:49.313
 swag send jonathan lane an email jay lane
 
 00:34:49.432 --> 00:34:51.153
 revolution two five oh dot org
 
 00:34:51.894 --> 00:34:53.655
 And every week I thank folks who are
 
 00:34:53.715 --> 00:34:54.795
 regular listeners.
 
 00:34:55.016 --> 00:34:56.476
 And if you're in one of these places
 
 00:34:56.516 --> 00:34:58.436
 and want some Revolution Two-Fifty stuff,
 
 00:34:58.456 --> 00:34:59.637
 send Jonathan an email.
 
 00:34:59.697 --> 00:35:01.757
 This week I want to thank our listeners
 
 00:35:01.777 --> 00:35:03.177
 in Mount Kisco, New York,
 
 00:35:03.458 --> 00:35:06.099
 and in Missoula and Belgrade, Montana,
 
 00:35:06.619 --> 00:35:08.860
 Edison, New Jersey, here in Massachusetts,
 
 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.519
 in Orange, Woburn, and Chelmsford, Dalton,
 
 00:35:11.559 --> 00:35:13.960
 Georgia, Middletown and Parma, and Ohio.
 
 00:35:14.630 --> 00:35:17.652
 and across the planet in Tel Aviv, Lima,
 
 00:35:17.692 --> 00:35:20.552
 Montreal, Lesti in Newfoundland, St.
 
 00:35:20.592 --> 00:35:23.713
 Helens, Erbil in Kurdistan, Pringi,
 
 00:35:23.773 --> 00:35:25.173
 Hennessy in Upper Savoy,
 
 00:35:25.454 --> 00:35:27.715
 Delmanhurst in Lower Saxony, Liverpool,
 
 00:35:27.775 --> 00:35:31.034
 Bordeaux, Taipei, Singapore, and Almaty,
 
 00:35:31.074 --> 00:35:31.896
 Kazakhstan,
 
 00:35:31.936 --> 00:35:33.456
 and all places between and beyond.
 
 00:35:33.496 --> 00:35:34.476
 Thanks for joining us.
 
 00:35:35.016 --> 00:35:36.157
 And now we'll be piped out on the
 
 00:35:36.197 --> 00:35:36.777
 road to Boston.