This Fierce People: American Revolution in the South, 1778-1781, with Alan Pell Crawford

 In his new book This Fierce People:  The Untold Story of America’s Revolutionary War in the South, Alan Pell Crawford brings to life the three years between Monmouth and Yorktown.  A brutal war in the South—a true civil war—set the stage for the victory at Yorktown, and here, Crawford argues, the War for Independence was won.  What happened between 1778 and 1781 as the war shifted to the southern theater? Who were the “unsung patriots” that inevitably set the stage for Yorktown? The distinguished journalist and author Alan Pell Crawford joins to discuss This Fierce People and his research on the Revolution in the South. 

Transcript

WEBVTT
 
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 Hello, everyone,
 
 00:00:02.192 --> 00:00:04.113
 and welcome to the Revolution Two-Fifty
 
 00:00:04.153 --> 00:00:04.775
 podcast.
 
 00:00:04.855 --> 00:00:05.697
 I'm Bob Allison.
 
 00:00:06.197 --> 00:00:07.639
 I co-chair Rev Two-Fifty.
 
 00:00:07.658 --> 00:00:09.782
 We're a consortium of groups in
 
 00:00:09.821 --> 00:00:11.603
 Massachusetts planning commemorations of
 
 00:00:11.644 --> 00:00:13.146
 American independence.
 
 00:00:13.185 --> 00:00:16.310
 And our guest today is Alan Pell Crawford,
 
 00:00:16.390 --> 00:00:17.010
 who is a
 
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 prolific writer of exciting books of
 
 00:00:20.835 --> 00:00:21.475
 history.
 
 00:00:21.736 --> 00:00:23.775
 Twilight at Monticello is on Jefferson's
 
 00:00:23.835 --> 00:00:24.536
 later years.
 
 00:00:24.675 --> 00:00:27.157
 Unwise Passions tells the amazing story of
 
 00:00:27.856 --> 00:00:29.797
 Anne Cary Randolph Morris.
 
 00:00:30.277 --> 00:00:33.277
 And his latest book is This Fierce People,
 
 00:00:33.298 --> 00:00:34.978
 The Untold Story of America's
 
 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:36.738
 Revolutionary War in the South.
 
 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:37.139
 So Alan,
 
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 thank you so much for joining us.
 
 00:00:39.140 --> 00:00:41.000
 It's a pleasure and an honor.
 
 00:00:42.987 --> 00:00:46.328
 And the war in the South is really
 
 00:00:46.387 --> 00:00:49.488
 the bloodiest and in many ways in the
 
 00:00:49.529 --> 00:00:51.549
 biggest part of the Revolutionary War.
 
 00:00:51.570 --> 00:00:53.151
 And I guess the big question always is,
 
 00:00:53.850 --> 00:00:56.192
 how come it is the untold story?
 
 00:00:56.212 --> 00:00:56.451
 I mean,
 
 00:00:56.491 --> 00:00:58.792
 how is it that we've overlooked this?
 
 00:00:58.813 --> 00:01:01.313
 Excuse me,
 
 00:01:01.332 --> 00:01:06.855
 there are a number of possible
 
 00:01:07.396 --> 00:01:08.936
 explanations for that.
 
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 There's no definitive
 
 00:01:14.162 --> 00:01:17.763
 There's no definitive explanation,
 
 00:01:17.784 --> 00:01:19.563
 but there are a number of them that
 
 00:01:19.584 --> 00:01:24.965
 kind of work together, it seems to me.
 
 00:01:25.066 --> 00:01:25.426
 First,
 
 00:01:25.585 --> 00:01:28.445
 I think the earliest histories of the
 
 00:01:28.465 --> 00:01:31.466
 American Revolution were embodied in
 
 00:01:31.927 --> 00:01:33.828
 biographies of George Washington.
 
 00:01:35.427 --> 00:01:39.828
 And so that's one.
 
 00:01:40.475 --> 00:01:43.257
 reason that we learned that the story is
 
 00:01:43.977 --> 00:01:46.677
 told in the way it is and has
 
 00:01:46.718 --> 00:01:48.198
 been now for generations.
 
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 That's part of it.
 
 00:01:50.980 --> 00:01:51.500
 Second,
 
 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:56.701
 I believe the earliest histories of the
 
 00:01:56.742 --> 00:02:00.543
 war were written from historians in
 
 00:02:00.703 --> 00:02:02.804
 probably New York and Massachusetts,
 
 00:02:02.983 --> 00:02:03.484
 Boston.
 
 00:02:04.724 --> 00:02:05.786
 So there's that.
 
 00:02:05.906 --> 00:02:07.906
 And when I use the word bias,
 
 00:02:08.165 --> 00:02:09.606
 I'm not using that in a
 
 00:02:11.100 --> 00:02:12.401
 critical way, right,
 
 00:02:12.801 --> 00:02:17.603
 merely have explaining way,
 
 00:02:18.342 --> 00:02:21.563
 there is a certain bias involved in that
 
 00:02:21.604 --> 00:02:26.126
 that's totally human people see what's
 
 00:02:26.205 --> 00:02:28.026
 relevant and important in the world in
 
 00:02:28.066 --> 00:02:30.706
 terms of their own surroundings and their
 
 00:02:30.787 --> 00:02:32.848
 own stories and their own backgrounds and
 
 00:02:32.927 --> 00:02:33.467
 all of that.
 
 00:02:34.348 --> 00:02:36.288
 And so that so that there's going to
 
 00:02:36.329 --> 00:02:36.908
 be a
 
 00:02:40.222 --> 00:02:42.763
 a bias toward what happens in your
 
 00:02:42.782 --> 00:02:43.403
 backyard.
 
 00:02:44.844 --> 00:02:47.026
 And that's perfectly acceptable and would
 
 00:02:47.045 --> 00:02:48.847
 be unusual if that weren't the case.
 
 00:02:50.007 --> 00:02:56.170
 So the things that are happening in
 
 00:02:56.230 --> 00:02:59.973
 Massachusetts or Pennsylvania are going to
 
 00:03:00.173 --> 00:03:04.395
 seem more important to people there than
 
 00:03:05.616 --> 00:03:07.717
 they might be to somebody in Charleston.
 
 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:12.850
 I think another explanation in our own
 
 00:03:12.931 --> 00:03:20.395
 time is that the characters,
 
 00:03:20.455 --> 00:03:23.116
 the players in the war in the South
 
 00:03:24.298 --> 00:03:25.698
 were often slaveholders.
 
 00:03:27.438 --> 00:03:28.259
 And that's,
 
 00:03:30.600 --> 00:03:32.542
 we're going through a time right now when
 
 00:03:32.602 --> 00:03:35.342
 that makes people very uncomfortable.
 
 00:03:36.123 --> 00:03:37.705
 And so,
 
 00:03:38.865 --> 00:03:46.009
 There's less of a desire to explore all
 
 00:03:46.069 --> 00:03:46.449
 of that.
 
 00:03:46.969 --> 00:03:49.692
 And major figures, not just in the war,
 
 00:03:49.711 --> 00:03:52.152
 but in the American government at that
 
 00:03:52.193 --> 00:03:52.433
 time,
 
 00:03:52.493 --> 00:03:55.816
 including Jefferson and Washington and
 
 00:03:55.895 --> 00:03:56.195
 others.
 
 00:03:57.556 --> 00:03:59.117
 This is not a good time for Thomas
 
 00:03:59.157 --> 00:04:02.900
 Jefferson in our culture.
 
 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:05.382
 I'm sorry, what did you say?
 
 00:04:05.938 --> 00:04:08.919
 No, you know, Joe Ellis, the historian,
 
 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.260
 has said that over the long span of
 
 00:04:11.300 --> 00:04:12.341
 American history,
 
 00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:14.481
 anyone who has bet against Thomas
 
 00:04:14.542 --> 00:04:16.021
 Jefferson has lost.
 
 00:04:16.701 --> 00:04:17.923
 That's a very good point.
 
 00:04:17.963 --> 00:04:21.064
 Yes, that's not a good bet.
 
 00:04:21.204 --> 00:04:24.125
 Right now, the money's not on Jefferson.
 
 00:04:24.345 --> 00:04:24.944
 No.
 
 00:04:25.305 --> 00:04:26.786
 Probably, you know,
 
 00:04:26.865 --> 00:04:30.326
 as we work our way through sociocultural,
 
 00:04:32.509 --> 00:04:36.091
 difficulties and controversies.
 
 00:04:36.110 --> 00:04:38.872
 It will be appreciated again.
 
 00:04:39.372 --> 00:04:40.973
 You mentioned a lot of really
 
 00:04:41.072 --> 00:04:43.514
 extraordinary characters who are part of
 
 00:04:43.553 --> 00:04:44.894
 this story in your book.
 
 00:04:44.934 --> 00:04:46.735
 People like Nathaniel Green,
 
 00:04:46.795 --> 00:04:49.295
 Daniel Morgan, Francis Marion.
 
 00:04:50.677 --> 00:04:53.117
 Really interesting stories about these
 
 00:04:53.197 --> 00:04:53.997
 characters.
 
 00:04:54.057 --> 00:04:56.199
 I wonder what really struck you about
 
 00:04:56.379 --> 00:04:58.579
 these individuals as you were doing your
 
 00:04:58.620 --> 00:04:58.959
 work?
 
 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:00.641
 Well, I think that
 
 00:05:01.925 --> 00:05:06.048
 Part of this, my desire to do this,
 
 00:05:06.108 --> 00:05:09.430
 probably on some level that I didn't,
 
 00:05:10.509 --> 00:05:13.471
 I only think might be the case after
 
 00:05:13.512 --> 00:05:15.913
 the fact, was when I was a boy,
 
 00:05:16.033 --> 00:05:19.595
 I used to watch the Walt Disney's on
 
 00:05:19.995 --> 00:05:23.937
 Sunday nights, and he had a swamp fox.
 
 00:05:24.761 --> 00:05:25.622
 Right.
 
 00:05:25.682 --> 00:05:26.362
 Episodes.
 
 00:05:27.223 --> 00:05:29.524
 And that was, uh, Leslie Nielsen.
 
 00:05:29.564 --> 00:05:29.644
 Yeah.
 
 00:05:29.704 --> 00:05:34.949
 And his sidekick was played by Buddy
 
 00:05:35.009 --> 00:05:35.189
 Ebsen.
 
 00:05:35.209 --> 00:05:35.430
 Right.
 
 00:05:36.430 --> 00:05:37.471
 Yeah.
 
 00:05:38.213 --> 00:05:39.213
 And, uh,
 
 00:05:39.254 --> 00:05:41.975
 Leslie Nielsen didn't do many more heroic
 
 00:05:42.036 --> 00:05:42.557
 roles.
 
 00:05:43.016 --> 00:05:43.958
 No, no.
 
 00:05:43.978 --> 00:05:45.879
 So I probably, you know,
 
 00:05:45.939 --> 00:05:48.302
 I would see them riding their horses
 
 00:05:48.322 --> 00:05:50.122
 through the swamps and all of that kind
 
 00:05:50.163 --> 00:05:50.564
 of thing.
 
 00:05:51.384 --> 00:05:51.685
 And, uh,
 
 00:05:53.014 --> 00:05:55.196
 That probably was very exciting to me as
 
 00:05:55.216 --> 00:05:58.057
 an eight year old or whatever it was.
 
 00:05:58.896 --> 00:06:01.497
 And so, but then,
 
 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:07.120
 so I probably had this in the back
 
 00:06:07.139 --> 00:06:08.201
 of my mind somehow.
 
 00:06:08.261 --> 00:06:08.841
 Then,
 
 00:06:09.141 --> 00:06:10.822
 I don't know how personal you want me
 
 00:06:10.841 --> 00:06:11.242
 to get here,
 
 00:06:11.281 --> 00:06:13.783
 but for a number of years,
 
 00:06:15.202 --> 00:06:16.963
 my wife and I lived in Alexandria,
 
 00:06:17.004 --> 00:06:17.524
 Virginia.
 
 00:06:18.343 --> 00:06:19.944
 We were married at Christ Church.
 
 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:23.600
 which is the church where George
 
 00:06:23.641 --> 00:06:26.961
 Washington attended and where Robert E.
 
 00:06:27.002 --> 00:06:29.382
 Lee was a parishioner.
 
 00:06:30.242 --> 00:06:34.504
 And for a while then we lived down
 
 00:06:34.524 --> 00:06:38.985
 the road, not far from Mount Vernon.
 
 00:06:40.264 --> 00:06:42.665
 So naturally you get interested in George
 
 00:06:42.706 --> 00:06:44.146
 Washington and his story.
 
 00:06:47.346 --> 00:06:48.906
 So I got more, you know,
 
 00:06:48.927 --> 00:06:51.168
 I began to read a great deal of
 
 00:06:51.228 --> 00:06:52.387
 Washington, I suppose,
 
 00:06:53.048 --> 00:06:55.069
 and the revolutionary war.
 
 00:06:55.649 --> 00:06:56.509
 And as I did,
 
 00:06:58.509 --> 00:07:02.529
 something was amiss in the entire story
 
 00:07:03.730 --> 00:07:08.531
 because you've got Washington dominating
 
 00:07:08.612 --> 00:07:09.192
 everything.
 
 00:07:09.451 --> 00:07:13.213
 Everything is seen in the shadow of this
 
 00:07:13.273 --> 00:07:13.913
 great man.
 
 00:07:14.673 --> 00:07:15.132
 And, um,
 
 00:07:18.237 --> 00:07:21.060
 Then there's this gap of about three years
 
 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:24.362
 in the history of the period in which
 
 00:07:24.382 --> 00:07:26.363
 you go from this exciting war in the
 
 00:07:26.425 --> 00:07:29.067
 North with the Declaration of Independence
 
 00:07:29.127 --> 00:07:31.449
 and Bunker Hill and the Boston Tea Party
 
 00:07:31.488 --> 00:07:33.471
 and all of this, and suddenly Yorktown.
 
 00:07:36.132 --> 00:07:38.014
 And this whole time,
 
 00:07:38.095 --> 00:07:39.737
 George Washington is in the North.
 
 00:07:40.992 --> 00:07:42.093
 All these things are going on.
 
 00:07:42.173 --> 00:07:44.754
 It's like three and a half years passed
 
 00:07:45.314 --> 00:07:47.853
 between the last battle in the north and
 
 00:07:47.874 --> 00:07:49.115
 the surrender at Yorktown.
 
 00:07:50.115 --> 00:07:50.915
 And in fact,
 
 00:07:50.935 --> 00:07:55.016
 I'm trying to remember the British
 
 00:07:55.216 --> 00:07:55.755
 admiral.
 
 00:07:55.815 --> 00:07:56.776
 Was it de Grasse?
 
 00:07:59.197 --> 00:08:01.076
 It was the French.
 
 00:08:01.096 --> 00:08:01.536
 What did I say?
 
 00:08:01.557 --> 00:08:01.857
 British?
 
 00:08:02.057 --> 00:08:02.916
 I meant the French.
 
 00:08:03.336 --> 00:08:04.538
 Yeah, de Grasse.
 
 00:08:04.997 --> 00:08:05.677
 So he's...
 
 00:08:06.976 --> 00:08:09.276
 He's got ships in the Caribbean and they
 
 00:08:09.297 --> 00:08:11.338
 come up and they blockade,
 
 00:08:12.858 --> 00:08:14.637
 they prevent the British ships from coming
 
 00:08:14.677 --> 00:08:15.319
 into Virginia.
 
 00:08:16.038 --> 00:08:17.038
 And at one point,
 
 00:08:18.259 --> 00:08:20.699
 de Grasse contacts Washington.
 
 00:08:21.879 --> 00:08:23.160
 He emailed him, I believe.
 
 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:25.240
 And he said,
 
 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:27.480
 I'm not going to keep my ships down
 
 00:08:27.500 --> 00:08:28.161
 here forever.
 
 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:29.701
 If you're coming down here,
 
 00:08:29.721 --> 00:08:30.641
 you better come now.
 
 00:08:31.521 --> 00:08:33.422
 And that's when Washington and Rochambeau
 
 00:08:33.442 --> 00:08:33.601
 arrived.
 
 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.561
 come down, Washington, I think,
 
 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:39.802
 stops at Mount Vernon on the way,
 
 00:08:40.523 --> 00:08:41.663
 crosses the Potomac,
 
 00:08:42.224 --> 00:08:43.784
 makes his way down to Yorktown.
 
 00:08:44.384 --> 00:08:47.067
 And that's when the siege of Yorktown
 
 00:08:47.106 --> 00:08:54.751
 begins and the surrender occurs.
 
 00:08:54.971 --> 00:08:56.793
 So it was fascinating to me even that
 
 00:08:56.832 --> 00:08:59.313
 Washington had to be told, get down here.
 
 00:08:59.333 --> 00:08:59.975
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:09:02.184 --> 00:09:02.784
 And then go ahead.
 
 00:09:03.265 --> 00:09:03.666
 No, go on.
 
 00:09:03.686 --> 00:09:04.265
 You go on, Alan.
 
 00:09:04.605 --> 00:09:05.667
 Well, you know,
 
 00:09:05.767 --> 00:09:08.729
 so there's this Washington,
 
 00:09:08.788 --> 00:09:09.850
 it seems to me,
 
 00:09:11.211 --> 00:09:14.893
 had this idea that there would be some
 
 00:09:14.933 --> 00:09:19.976
 kind of cataclysmic determinative battle.
 
 00:09:21.744 --> 00:09:24.267
 In New Jersey and New York,
 
 00:09:24.307 --> 00:09:25.628
 where the British are in New York,
 
 00:09:25.707 --> 00:09:26.948
 and there's going to be a battle,
 
 00:09:27.389 --> 00:09:29.371
 and it's going to be this grand,
 
 00:09:29.831 --> 00:09:33.635
 almost like European thing that will
 
 00:09:33.676 --> 00:09:35.258
 determine who wins the war.
 
 00:09:35.878 --> 00:09:36.798
 Right.
 
 00:09:36.999 --> 00:09:38.120
 And this is not happening.
 
 00:09:38.160 --> 00:09:39.302
 There's a standoff.
 
 00:09:39.761 --> 00:09:41.023
 And I think at this point,
 
 00:09:41.062 --> 00:09:42.365
 the British decide...
 
 00:09:44.225 --> 00:09:45.846
 They see this as a standoff.
 
 00:09:46.106 --> 00:09:47.687
 We're not making any real progress here.
 
 00:09:48.126 --> 00:09:51.687
 Let's move the theater of action to the
 
 00:09:51.748 --> 00:09:53.149
 South,
 
 00:09:53.188 --> 00:09:55.788
 to Charleston and Savannah and all of
 
 00:09:55.808 --> 00:09:56.109
 that.
 
 00:09:56.369 --> 00:10:02.750
 And that's when this second part of the
 
 00:10:02.770 --> 00:10:03.551
 war begins.
 
 00:10:03.691 --> 00:10:04.672
 Right, right.
 
 00:10:04.831 --> 00:10:05.251
 And it was...
 
 00:10:07.493 --> 00:10:09.153
 Once you begin to, I thought,
 
 00:10:09.333 --> 00:10:10.554
 what am I missing here?
 
 00:10:10.595 --> 00:10:12.076
 And the more I delved into that,
 
 00:10:12.216 --> 00:10:15.756
 and here's where I think my journalistic
 
 00:10:17.577 --> 00:10:19.860
 orientation takes over rather than,
 
 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:22.321
 I never considered myself a historian.
 
 00:10:24.961 --> 00:10:26.363
 I'm in awe of the people that,
 
 00:10:26.783 --> 00:10:27.023
 you know,
 
 00:10:27.043 --> 00:10:30.004
 the death of Gordon Wood was a horrible
 
 00:10:30.024 --> 00:10:31.205
 thing last week.
 
 00:10:33.413 --> 00:10:35.956
 And Ellis is remarkably still working.
 
 00:10:35.975 --> 00:10:39.018
 And there are those kind of figures.
 
 00:10:39.378 --> 00:10:41.399
 I've never put myself in that league.
 
 00:10:42.019 --> 00:10:44.741
 But I think with a journalistic
 
 00:10:44.782 --> 00:10:45.961
 background, I thought, oh,
 
 00:10:46.001 --> 00:10:47.322
 here's a great story.
 
 00:10:47.864 --> 00:10:49.644
 And there's not only a great story in
 
 00:10:49.684 --> 00:10:50.024
 itself.
 
 00:10:50.325 --> 00:10:52.927
 There are great stories and great
 
 00:10:53.287 --> 00:10:53.947
 characters.
 
 00:10:54.288 --> 00:10:55.528
 And you mentioned some of them.
 
 00:10:55.548 --> 00:10:57.509
 And I mentioned Leslie Nielsen.
 
 00:10:57.529 --> 00:10:58.931
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:10:59.655 --> 00:11:03.019
 But there's Daniel Morgan, and Green,
 
 00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:08.966
 and even the, I even liked Tarleton.
 
 00:11:10.269 --> 00:11:12.071
 Yeah, he's an interesting character, yeah.
 
 00:11:12.211 --> 00:11:13.832
 Yeah, he's a compelling character,
 
 00:11:13.893 --> 00:11:15.735
 and he's the, he's always,
 
 00:11:15.816 --> 00:11:17.256
 we're supposed to hate him, you know?
 
 00:11:18.018 --> 00:11:19.038
 He's like the man you've,
 
 00:11:20.068 --> 00:11:22.551
 that he's the man you hate to love.
 
 00:11:25.173 --> 00:11:29.375
 And so all of these people are engaged
 
 00:11:29.414 --> 00:11:31.636
 in this and they're on some level,
 
 00:11:31.876 --> 00:11:33.337
 maybe if I knew more about the war
 
 00:11:33.378 --> 00:11:34.958
 in the North, I would feel differently,
 
 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:42.604
 but I find them more compelling than some
 
 00:11:42.664 --> 00:11:42.945
 of the,
 
 00:11:46.966 --> 00:11:48.649
 I think that those who fought in the
 
 00:11:48.688 --> 00:11:48.989
 North.
 
 00:11:54.673 --> 00:11:59.375
 And so for that, I wanted to,
 
 00:11:59.514 --> 00:12:01.894
 once I began to explore these things,
 
 00:12:02.096 --> 00:12:04.216
 I thought, this is just great stuff.
 
 00:12:04.755 --> 00:12:06.017
 And it needs to be written.
 
 00:12:06.116 --> 00:12:07.638
 And people need to know this.
 
 00:12:08.898 --> 00:12:09.717
 And it's fun.
 
 00:12:10.278 --> 00:12:10.778
 I mean,
 
 00:12:10.798 --> 00:12:12.719
 I know it's not fun if you're bleeding
 
 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:13.720
 on the battlefield.
 
 00:12:15.172 --> 00:12:17.754
 or your family that gets the terrible
 
 00:12:17.815 --> 00:12:18.134
 news.
 
 00:12:18.215 --> 00:12:19.616
 I don't mean it fun in that way.
 
 00:12:19.677 --> 00:12:21.057
 I mean that as a writer.
 
 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.864
 This is rich material that is,
 
 00:12:27.384 --> 00:12:28.245
 I couldn't say no.
 
 00:12:29.096 --> 00:12:30.356
 Right, right.
 
 00:12:30.376 --> 00:12:32.197
 We're talking with Alan Pell Crawford,
 
 00:12:32.238 --> 00:12:34.278
 whose new book is This Fierce People,
 
 00:12:34.318 --> 00:12:36.061
 The Untold Story of America's
 
 00:12:36.140 --> 00:12:38.261
 Revolutionary War in the South.
 
 00:12:39.163 --> 00:12:40.302
 And again,
 
 00:12:40.322 --> 00:12:43.485
 that idea of the bloodiness of it is
 
 00:12:43.524 --> 00:12:45.947
 something you can't escape in this period.
 
 00:12:46.106 --> 00:12:48.249
 I mean,
 
 00:12:48.269 --> 00:12:51.230
 someone refers to the savage fury of these
 
 00:12:51.291 --> 00:12:54.013
 people and pursuing each other like beasts
 
 00:12:54.073 --> 00:12:54.793
 of prey.
 
 00:12:55.375 --> 00:12:56.936
 And it's something Nathaniel Green
 
 00:12:56.995 --> 00:12:57.556
 comments.
 
 00:12:57.876 --> 00:12:59.278
 He is shocked when he gets here and
 
 00:12:59.298 --> 00:13:01.399
 just discovers the utter brutality of
 
 00:13:01.438 --> 00:13:03.100
 things in the Carolinas.
 
 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.663
 Yeah, he writes to Washington, I believe,
 
 00:13:06.764 --> 00:13:08.445
 and to Hamilton, I think.
 
 00:13:09.125 --> 00:13:09.566
 And he says,
 
 00:13:09.586 --> 00:13:11.187
 you just wouldn't believe what's going on
 
 00:13:11.226 --> 00:13:11.748
 down here.
 
 00:13:12.128 --> 00:13:13.469
 This is beyond my...
 
 00:13:15.980 --> 00:13:18.282
 And there's a number of interesting things
 
 00:13:18.322 --> 00:13:22.163
 to emerge from that dynamic or to be
 
 00:13:24.523 --> 00:13:26.583
 kind of distilled from it.
 
 00:13:30.163 --> 00:13:30.684
 Again,
 
 00:13:33.044 --> 00:13:34.365
 maybe I'm not giving the war in the
 
 00:13:34.405 --> 00:13:36.806
 North enough credit because I don't know
 
 00:13:36.846 --> 00:13:37.365
 it as well,
 
 00:13:37.426 --> 00:13:39.966
 but the farther West you get,
 
 00:13:40.706 --> 00:13:43.528
 in the Carolinas and Virginia,
 
 00:13:44.229 --> 00:13:48.471
 the less there is orderly government and
 
 00:13:48.633 --> 00:13:54.616
 police forces in action and things become,
 
 00:13:55.158 --> 00:13:56.798
 they break down and they become very
 
 00:13:57.860 --> 00:13:59.380
 violent in some cases.
 
 00:13:59.640 --> 00:13:59.782
 And
 
 00:14:01.427 --> 00:14:03.368
 You've got neighbors who are fighting each
 
 00:14:03.447 --> 00:14:05.629
 other, taking different sides.
 
 00:14:05.668 --> 00:14:07.950
 Some are loyalists, and some are what we,
 
 00:14:08.149 --> 00:14:08.429
 I think,
 
 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:11.850
 anachronistically refer to as patriots.
 
 00:14:11.990 --> 00:14:13.250
 I don't really like that term.
 
 00:14:14.691 --> 00:14:15.811
 They would have probably thought of
 
 00:14:15.870 --> 00:14:16.971
 themselves as Whigs,
 
 00:14:18.491 --> 00:14:20.493
 and then they're the loyalists or Tories.
 
 00:14:20.773 --> 00:14:21.893
 So they're clashing,
 
 00:14:21.932 --> 00:14:26.313
 and it gets very violent out
 
 00:14:26.860 --> 00:14:27.600
 that way.
 
 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:30.221
 And, you know,
 
 00:14:30.282 --> 00:14:32.224
 Washington's I think why one of the great
 
 00:14:32.323 --> 00:14:35.765
 moments in the book or in the story,
 
 00:14:35.806 --> 00:14:36.767
 let me put it that way,
 
 00:14:37.447 --> 00:14:41.750
 is when Green reports back to Washington,
 
 00:14:41.769 --> 00:14:45.331
 Green replaces Horatio Gates,
 
 00:14:45.371 --> 00:14:48.794
 who was annihilated at Camden and fled the
 
 00:14:48.835 --> 00:14:51.576
 battlefield and needed to be and so
 
 00:14:51.636 --> 00:14:53.937
 Washington puts Nathaniel Green in charge.
 
 00:14:54.778 --> 00:14:54.958
 And the
 
 00:14:55.833 --> 00:14:57.235
 Commander in Chief of the Southern
 
 00:14:57.254 --> 00:14:58.274
 Department in the war.
 
 00:14:58.674 --> 00:15:01.356
 And Greene gets down there and reports
 
 00:15:02.356 --> 00:15:07.039
 back to Washington how chaotic, violent,
 
 00:15:08.539 --> 00:15:10.861
 disorderly the whole situation is.
 
 00:15:11.822 --> 00:15:14.582
 And I think what I was saying was
 
 00:15:14.602 --> 00:15:16.583
 the great moment in the book for me
 
 00:15:17.144 --> 00:15:19.265
 is when Washington writes back to Greene
 
 00:15:20.706 --> 00:15:21.226
 and he says,
 
 00:15:22.929 --> 00:15:25.650
 I don't know what's going on down there.
 
 00:15:26.410 --> 00:15:26.691
 He says,
 
 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:28.270
 I don't know the disposition of our
 
 00:15:28.311 --> 00:15:28.691
 troops.
 
 00:15:28.831 --> 00:15:30.751
 I don't know the strength of the enemy.
 
 00:15:32.292 --> 00:15:32.871
 And he says,
 
 00:15:36.773 --> 00:15:39.192
 you're gonna have to figure this out for
 
 00:15:39.212 --> 00:15:39.734
 yourself.
 
 00:15:41.053 --> 00:15:42.854
 And I think this is what a wonderful
 
 00:15:42.913 --> 00:15:44.875
 moment because he's,
 
 00:15:47.794 --> 00:15:49.235
 what is the word I'm looking for?
 
 00:15:49.296 --> 00:15:50.836
 He's delegating authority.
 
 00:15:52.162 --> 00:15:54.743
 The idea that Washington is the supreme
 
 00:15:54.783 --> 00:15:56.764
 commander who's dictating everything that
 
 00:15:56.804 --> 00:16:00.447
 goes on in the war is just false.
 
 00:16:01.647 --> 00:16:06.149
 And you see over the course of the
 
 00:16:06.190 --> 00:16:08.931
 war something very interesting also with
 
 00:16:08.990 --> 00:16:09.552
 Washington.
 
 00:16:10.371 --> 00:16:11.692
 He begins with...
 
 00:16:12.923 --> 00:16:16.905
 saying for officers in the American army,
 
 00:16:17.506 --> 00:16:17.927
 he wants,
 
 00:16:19.008 --> 00:16:20.288
 I can't remember the exact wording,
 
 00:16:20.347 --> 00:16:21.869
 something to the effect that he wants men
 
 00:16:21.908 --> 00:16:26.272
 of honor and property and standing in the
 
 00:16:26.312 --> 00:16:26.912
 community.
 
 00:16:27.432 --> 00:16:29.693
 And he's describing people of his own
 
 00:16:29.754 --> 00:16:33.495
 social set who have big plantations and
 
 00:16:33.596 --> 00:16:36.998
 they are justices of the peace or
 
 00:16:37.357 --> 00:16:37.698
 whatever.
 
 00:16:38.538 --> 00:16:41.942
 and respected by the lesser beings in the
 
 00:16:41.981 --> 00:16:43.623
 community, looked up to.
 
 00:16:43.982 --> 00:16:45.144
 Those are the people he wants.
 
 00:16:45.264 --> 00:16:47.846
 I think he appoints Philip Schuyler to a
 
 00:16:47.886 --> 00:16:51.929
 position and is disappointed in the
 
 00:16:51.990 --> 00:16:52.529
 results.
 
 00:16:53.311 --> 00:16:54.591
 And over time,
 
 00:16:56.894 --> 00:17:00.756
 Washington's idea of leadership
 
 00:17:02.107 --> 00:17:02.227
 Right.
 
 00:17:04.510 --> 00:17:06.854
 And he sees men like Daniel Morgan,
 
 00:17:06.894 --> 00:17:09.497
 who drove wagons.
 
 00:17:09.777 --> 00:17:10.478
 Right.
 
 00:17:11.638 --> 00:17:12.881
 Who comes from New Jersey.
 
 00:17:13.121 --> 00:17:13.300
 You know,
 
 00:17:13.340 --> 00:17:16.003
 I was doing a podcast recently and I
 
 00:17:16.044 --> 00:17:16.945
 said he was from...
 
 00:17:18.722 --> 00:17:19.042
 I don't know,
 
 00:17:19.123 --> 00:17:20.743
 Rhode Island or Pennsylvania or something,
 
 00:17:20.804 --> 00:17:24.164
 which was the standard biography.
 
 00:17:24.664 --> 00:17:27.185
 And I was corrected by somebody who said,
 
 00:17:27.205 --> 00:17:29.365
 no, we claim him here in New Jersey.
 
 00:17:30.846 --> 00:17:32.067
 So he comes down.
 
 00:17:32.547 --> 00:17:34.147
 He's uneducated.
 
 00:17:35.307 --> 00:17:36.508
 He's poor.
 
 00:17:38.169 --> 00:17:42.650
 He drives wagons for other planters and
 
 00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:46.652
 comes down the great wagon trail,
 
 00:17:46.731 --> 00:17:47.251
 I think it's called.
 
 00:17:48.371 --> 00:17:52.974
 And fights and battles and comes to the
 
 00:17:52.994 --> 00:17:54.415
 attention of George Washington.
 
 00:17:55.215 --> 00:17:58.798
 And Washington recognizes ability here
 
 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:05.663
 that violates or subverts everything he
 
 00:18:06.104 --> 00:18:08.986
 has started the war believing about the
 
 00:18:09.026 --> 00:18:12.169
 kind of, about what leadership is.
 
 00:18:12.189 --> 00:18:12.429
 Right.
 
 00:18:13.071 --> 00:18:14.573
 there's a great moment you were talking
 
 00:18:14.613 --> 00:18:17.938
 about the um savagery of the war and
 
 00:18:17.978 --> 00:18:23.785
 this at one point washington's he says you
 
 00:18:23.805 --> 00:18:27.589
 know we should create a special unit
 
 00:18:28.643 --> 00:18:32.084
 for Morgan and they would dress them like
 
 00:18:32.983 --> 00:18:36.164
 American Indians and give them scalping
 
 00:18:36.224 --> 00:18:38.185
 knives.
 
 00:18:38.605 --> 00:18:40.526
 There would be like five hundred of these
 
 00:18:40.586 --> 00:18:43.086
 men and they wouldn't have the regular
 
 00:18:43.126 --> 00:18:45.228
 duties that a soldier had in camp.
 
 00:18:45.959 --> 00:18:46.358
 And he says,
 
 00:18:46.398 --> 00:18:48.020
 wouldn't it be great if they go into
 
 00:18:48.080 --> 00:18:52.003
 battle screaming and yelling like the
 
 00:18:52.183 --> 00:18:53.424
 Indians do?
 
 00:18:53.924 --> 00:18:54.925
 Which is, again,
 
 00:18:55.026 --> 00:18:56.928
 it's a total violation of everything
 
 00:18:56.988 --> 00:18:58.249
 Washington thinks.
 
 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:02.192
 And nothing much came of that.
 
 00:19:02.471 --> 00:19:06.335
 Morgan did fight in battles and led troops
 
 00:19:06.394 --> 00:19:07.275
 and all of that.
 
 00:19:07.316 --> 00:19:10.438
 But this idea of this special core of,
 
 00:19:11.679 --> 00:19:12.579
 it's fascinating.
 
 00:19:12.940 --> 00:19:15.142
 And it's relevant in the sense that
 
 00:19:16.097 --> 00:19:18.019
 A lot of the fighting in the South
 
 00:19:19.378 --> 00:19:23.099
 was what we would call guerrilla warfare.
 
 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:23.700
 Right.
 
 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:25.320
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:25.401 --> 00:19:26.361
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:26.381 --> 00:19:26.580
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:26.601 --> 00:19:28.421
 And Gates and other American commanders,
 
 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:29.942
 we're talking with Alan Crawford,
 
 00:19:29.981 --> 00:19:31.882
 whose new book is This Fierce People,
 
 00:19:31.902 --> 00:19:33.363
 The Untold Story of America's
 
 00:19:33.423 --> 00:19:35.222
 Revolutionary War in the South.
 
 00:19:35.282 --> 00:19:37.824
 And Green's predecessor, Gates,
 
 00:19:37.864 --> 00:19:40.505
 really had not wanted to rely on people
 
 00:19:40.585 --> 00:19:40.904
 like
 
 00:19:42.006 --> 00:19:45.147
 Marion, Pickens, Sumter, the irregulars,
 
 00:19:45.248 --> 00:19:48.150
 but Green sees that real necessity for
 
 00:19:48.170 --> 00:19:48.269
 them.
 
 00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:51.893
 He and Marion get along very well in
 
 00:19:52.292 --> 00:19:53.314
 cooperating,
 
 00:19:53.354 --> 00:19:55.434
 and he sees that they're indispensable to
 
 00:19:55.454 --> 00:19:55.596
 this.
 
 00:19:55.635 --> 00:19:55.715
 Yeah.
 
 00:19:58.258 --> 00:20:03.560
 You know, I have a cousin in Lexington,
 
 00:20:03.602 --> 00:20:05.803
 Kentucky, who writes Civil War histories,
 
 00:20:07.064 --> 00:20:07.964
 and he's a
 
 00:20:08.859 --> 00:20:10.540
 expert on military things.
 
 00:20:10.580 --> 00:20:12.622
 And I called him once and I said,
 
 00:20:13.461 --> 00:20:14.281
 you know,
 
 00:20:14.301 --> 00:20:15.982
 I'm looking at these battles and these
 
 00:20:16.042 --> 00:20:17.222
 battlefield maps,
 
 00:20:17.384 --> 00:20:18.884
 which I think are a disaster,
 
 00:20:18.923 --> 00:20:20.684
 most of them.
 
 00:20:20.724 --> 00:20:22.826
 Because they're trying to show things
 
 00:20:22.865 --> 00:20:24.205
 happening over time.
 
 00:20:25.846 --> 00:20:27.048
 And then you've got arrows.
 
 00:20:27.827 --> 00:20:29.648
 They make no sense, but to me.
 
 00:20:30.368 --> 00:20:32.329
 And I said, I can't even figure out,
 
 00:20:32.450 --> 00:20:34.371
 okay, if you're taking a battle like,
 
 00:20:34.931 --> 00:20:36.611
 I don't know, Leno's Ferry or something.
 
 00:20:36.631 --> 00:20:37.852
 Is that the name of it?
 
 00:20:38.604 --> 00:20:42.192
 And I said,
 
 00:20:42.372 --> 00:20:45.258
 there seems to be regulars fighting in the
 
 00:20:45.298 --> 00:20:46.420
 Continental Army there.
 
 00:20:46.941 --> 00:20:48.683
 There are members of state militias.
 
 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:54.084
 Then there are people like Marion who have
 
 00:20:54.684 --> 00:20:58.347
 a quasi-official connection to the armies.
 
 00:20:58.748 --> 00:21:01.230
 And then you've got militia from other
 
 00:21:01.290 --> 00:21:04.093
 states coming in and all the numbers of
 
 00:21:04.133 --> 00:21:05.534
 these units and all of that.
 
 00:21:05.574 --> 00:21:07.796
 And I said to my cousin, I said,
 
 00:21:07.955 --> 00:21:09.076
 I can't figure this out.
 
 00:21:10.038 --> 00:21:11.779
 He said, don't worry about it.
 
 00:21:13.336 --> 00:21:15.657
 The reader doesn't care about the number.
 
 00:21:16.118 --> 00:21:16.358
 Okay,
 
 00:21:16.398 --> 00:21:20.282
 this was Militia Seventeen from this
 
 00:21:20.343 --> 00:21:20.784
 county.
 
 00:21:21.364 --> 00:21:21.625
 He says,
 
 00:21:21.664 --> 00:21:23.145
 the reader doesn't care about that.
 
 00:21:23.185 --> 00:21:25.347
 You can't sort that out anyway.
 
 00:21:26.209 --> 00:21:26.650
 And so,
 
 00:21:28.090 --> 00:21:29.833
 but that's the nature of the war in
 
 00:21:29.853 --> 00:21:34.538
 the South is you've got the Continental
 
 00:21:34.617 --> 00:21:35.618
 Army under control.
 
 00:21:36.403 --> 00:21:37.202
 under Greene,
 
 00:21:37.804 --> 00:21:38.963
 and then you've got militias,
 
 00:21:39.144 --> 00:21:40.463
 and you've got irregulars,
 
 00:21:40.644 --> 00:21:42.244
 and you've got people just showing up.
 
 00:21:42.625 --> 00:21:44.326
 The Battle of Kings Mountain,
 
 00:21:44.405 --> 00:21:46.807
 which was October,
 
 00:21:46.846 --> 00:21:53.269
 is a wonderful example of that.
 
 00:21:55.170 --> 00:21:57.190
 The loyalist troops,
 
 00:21:57.230 --> 00:22:00.510
 there's only one non-American in this
 
 00:22:00.570 --> 00:22:00.932
 battle.
 
 00:22:02.332 --> 00:22:03.652
 And that's Patrick Ferguson,
 
 00:22:03.692 --> 00:22:04.512
 who's leading the
 
 00:22:05.770 --> 00:22:06.510
 loyalists.
 
 00:22:07.050 --> 00:22:09.172
 And they take this position on Kings
 
 00:22:09.211 --> 00:22:11.711
 Mountain, which is hard to figure out.
 
 00:22:11.771 --> 00:22:12.653
 I've been there.
 
 00:22:12.673 --> 00:22:14.532
 It's fascinating to go to.
 
 00:22:15.032 --> 00:22:17.374
 It's just below the North Carolina,
 
 00:22:17.413 --> 00:22:18.413
 South Carolina border.
 
 00:22:19.294 --> 00:22:22.875
 And they take a position on the mountain,
 
 00:22:23.775 --> 00:22:25.655
 which was probably not the best idea.
 
 00:22:28.276 --> 00:22:30.856
 And they are surrounded by
 
 00:22:33.567 --> 00:22:35.549
 What we would call, as I said,
 
 00:22:35.569 --> 00:22:39.473
 I think, you know, not good,
 
 00:22:39.634 --> 00:22:40.375
 call them patriots.
 
 00:22:40.395 --> 00:22:40.576
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:22:41.957 --> 00:22:44.200
 These supporters of independence,
 
 00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:46.163
 what's so fascinating,
 
 00:22:47.263 --> 00:22:49.205
 they weren't part of any army.
 
 00:22:49.406 --> 00:22:49.586
 Right.
 
 00:22:50.151 --> 00:22:52.451
 They are from the west of the
 
 00:22:52.491 --> 00:22:52.771
 Appalachians.
 
 00:22:52.791 --> 00:22:55.133
 Right, they're the over-the-mountain men.
 
 00:22:55.393 --> 00:22:56.873
 Over-mountain, the over-mountain men.
 
 00:22:56.992 --> 00:22:57.153
 Yeah,
 
 00:22:57.252 --> 00:23:00.013
 and they come from Tennessee and what we
 
 00:23:00.054 --> 00:23:01.013
 would, Kentucky,
 
 00:23:01.034 --> 00:23:02.375
 I don't know when they were admitted as
 
 00:23:02.414 --> 00:23:02.734
 states.
 
 00:23:03.154 --> 00:23:08.457
 But they come across the mountains and
 
 00:23:08.497 --> 00:23:11.837
 they surround King's Mountain,
 
 00:23:12.958 --> 00:23:14.137
 annihilate the troops,
 
 00:23:14.278 --> 00:23:15.618
 and kill Patrick Ferguson.
 
 00:23:15.739 --> 00:23:16.298
 And as I said,
 
 00:23:16.338 --> 00:23:17.939
 those are Americans fighting other
 
 00:23:17.979 --> 00:23:18.420
 Americans.
 
 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:19.400
 Right, right.
 
 00:23:20.951 --> 00:23:22.612
 There's a great moment in that, too,
 
 00:23:22.632 --> 00:23:26.532
 when the American, one of the commanders,
 
 00:23:26.573 --> 00:23:27.813
 and I can't remember the name,
 
 00:23:29.692 --> 00:23:32.753
 tells the soldiers under his command,
 
 00:23:32.773 --> 00:23:33.153
 he says,
 
 00:23:33.595 --> 00:23:36.234
 I can't tell you what you're supposed to
 
 00:23:36.295 --> 00:23:39.556
 do when the fighting starts.
 
 00:23:39.596 --> 00:23:40.616
 But I can show you.
 
 00:23:41.217 --> 00:23:43.656
 So just watch what I do.
 
 00:23:43.977 --> 00:23:47.298
 And they just send them out on all
 
 00:23:47.357 --> 00:23:47.818
 sides,
 
 00:23:48.078 --> 00:23:49.239
 annihilate the
 
 00:23:50.292 --> 00:23:52.398
 loyalists kill Ferguson,
 
 00:23:52.499 --> 00:23:53.402
 he's buried up there.
 
 00:23:53.883 --> 00:23:56.329
 And then they go back down the mountain,
 
 00:23:56.611 --> 00:23:57.513
 and they go back home.
 
 00:23:57.807 --> 00:23:58.807
 Right, yeah.
 
 00:23:58.826 --> 00:23:59.288
 That's it?
 
 00:23:59.347 --> 00:24:00.768
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:00.887 --> 00:24:01.548
 That's great.
 
 00:24:01.567 --> 00:24:02.888
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:02.969 --> 00:24:04.689
 I think that was Benjamin Cleveland who
 
 00:24:04.709 --> 00:24:04.888
 says,
 
 00:24:04.929 --> 00:24:06.730
 every man must consider himself an
 
 00:24:06.789 --> 00:24:07.269
 officer.
 
 00:24:07.630 --> 00:24:08.270
 Exactly.
 
 00:24:08.671 --> 00:24:09.111
 Yeah.
 
 00:24:09.211 --> 00:24:11.172
 And that's kind of, that echoes,
 
 00:24:11.211 --> 00:24:13.271
 that's a very American idea, I think.
 
 00:24:13.311 --> 00:24:13.692
 It is.
 
 00:24:13.792 --> 00:24:16.512
 And it echoes what Washington says to
 
 00:24:16.573 --> 00:24:17.054
 Green.
 
 00:24:17.634 --> 00:24:17.913
 Right.
 
 00:24:18.114 --> 00:24:18.913
 Is it Cleveland?
 
 00:24:18.953 --> 00:24:19.875
 Is that who you said?
 
 00:24:20.095 --> 00:24:20.855
 I think that's what you said.
 
 00:24:20.875 --> 00:24:26.457
 Cleveland is essentially telling his men,
 
 00:24:27.594 --> 00:24:29.013
 what Washington told Greene.
 
 00:24:30.355 --> 00:24:33.736
 And this, over time, this works.
 
 00:24:34.096 --> 00:24:34.715
 And, you know,
 
 00:24:34.776 --> 00:24:36.876
 you see little reenactments of the
 
 00:24:36.916 --> 00:24:40.097
 American Revolution that always take the
 
 00:24:40.157 --> 00:24:41.919
 same form and they always annoy me.
 
 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:45.420
 And I think it's unfair to the British.
 
 00:24:46.200 --> 00:24:49.421
 They will show Americans behind a little
 
 00:24:49.461 --> 00:24:50.260
 stone wall,
 
 00:24:50.902 --> 00:24:52.761
 firing their flintlocks or whatever they
 
 00:24:52.821 --> 00:24:52.981
 are.
 
 00:24:53.362 --> 00:24:54.262
 And here are...
 
 00:24:55.830 --> 00:24:59.593
 vast numbers of redcoats marching in
 
 00:24:59.972 --> 00:25:01.593
 order, and then they just get wiped out.
 
 00:25:01.633 --> 00:25:03.834
 Well, this is not fair to the British.
 
 00:25:06.895 --> 00:25:07.756
 And you know,
 
 00:25:08.736 --> 00:25:10.957
 one thing I got to do researching this
 
 00:25:11.017 --> 00:25:13.198
 book was spend time at the Boston
 
 00:25:13.258 --> 00:25:13.919
 Athenaeum,
 
 00:25:14.878 --> 00:25:17.400
 which has all of George Washington's
 
 00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:19.421
 books, his own library.
 
 00:25:20.340 --> 00:25:24.022
 And I went through those.
 
 00:25:25.441 --> 00:25:28.041
 not methodically, but usefully.
 
 00:25:28.201 --> 00:25:30.422
 And there were a couple of books written
 
 00:25:30.461 --> 00:25:32.682
 by British military tacticians.
 
 00:25:34.182 --> 00:25:37.584
 And one of the books, and maybe both,
 
 00:25:37.604 --> 00:25:38.703
 I can't remember exactly,
 
 00:25:39.344 --> 00:25:44.164
 describes how British redcoats are
 
 00:25:44.204 --> 00:25:45.005
 supposed to fight.
 
 00:25:46.265 --> 00:25:48.246
 And there's one thing they refer to as
 
 00:25:48.365 --> 00:25:48.925
 treeing.
 
 00:25:50.717 --> 00:25:53.278
 And treeing, there are two soldiers.
 
 00:25:54.038 --> 00:25:55.358
 They get behind a tree.
 
 00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.140
 One steps out and fires.
 
 00:25:59.421 --> 00:26:01.102
 The other, meanwhile, is reloading.
 
 00:26:01.942 --> 00:26:03.583
 And he turns going in and out.
 
 00:26:03.903 --> 00:26:07.904
 They're not marching in flanks of
 
 00:26:09.125 --> 00:26:09.905
 suicidal...
 
 00:26:11.490 --> 00:26:13.512
 and officers leading them into the
 
 00:26:13.553 --> 00:26:13.973
 slaughter.
 
 00:26:14.074 --> 00:26:15.095
 It's not that way.
 
 00:26:15.275 --> 00:26:18.377
 They have a familiarity with this kind of
 
 00:26:18.438 --> 00:26:19.098
 warfare.
 
 00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:21.582
 The Americans do it better.
 
 00:26:23.022 --> 00:26:26.406
 And I think that we can talk about
 
 00:26:26.467 --> 00:26:28.008
 this whenever you want to, but the...
 
 00:26:30.676 --> 00:26:31.957
 What was it called?
 
 00:26:31.977 --> 00:26:33.157
 The Race to the Dan.
 
 00:26:33.577 --> 00:26:34.478
 Yes, yes.
 
 00:26:35.098 --> 00:26:40.280
 It's an example where Greene violates all
 
 00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:46.403
 the rules of educated warfare.
 
 00:26:46.702 --> 00:26:48.683
 And I can't remember exactly when this
 
 00:26:48.743 --> 00:26:49.663
 happens, but...
 
 00:26:51.538 --> 00:26:55.902
 Yeah, it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:26:55.922 --> 00:27:00.045
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:00.085 --> 00:27:07.669
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:07.769 --> 00:27:10.471
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:10.490 --> 00:27:12.071
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:12.332 --> 00:27:15.595
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:16.355 --> 00:27:19.257
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:19.336 --> 00:27:20.258
 I think it's in, I think it's in,
 
 00:27:23.657 --> 00:27:25.018
 You've read this since I have.
 
 00:27:26.558 --> 00:27:31.461
 So what happens is Green divides his army,
 
 00:27:32.662 --> 00:27:34.123
 which you're not supposed to do.
 
 00:27:35.923 --> 00:27:37.644
 And I can't remember who he puts in
 
 00:27:37.684 --> 00:27:39.445
 charge of the, I can picture him,
 
 00:27:39.465 --> 00:27:40.465
 but I can't remember his name,
 
 00:27:41.007 --> 00:27:42.707
 the western flank of this army.
 
 00:27:43.948 --> 00:27:47.630
 And they're to go west and north.
 
 00:27:49.351 --> 00:27:51.373
 And meanwhile, of course,
 
 00:27:51.413 --> 00:27:53.914
 the British supply depots are on the
 
 00:27:53.954 --> 00:27:54.355
 coast.
 
 00:27:56.115 --> 00:27:56.936
 Not those depots,
 
 00:27:56.977 --> 00:27:58.557
 but that's where they're going to be
 
 00:27:58.617 --> 00:27:59.318
 resupplied.
 
 00:27:59.378 --> 00:28:01.420
 The ships can come in in Charleston and
 
 00:28:02.221 --> 00:28:05.363
 Savannah and these places and unload and
 
 00:28:05.544 --> 00:28:09.405
 men and material to supply the British
 
 00:28:09.547 --> 00:28:09.826
 army.
 
 00:28:10.646 --> 00:28:16.551
 What Green does is he methodically
 
 00:28:17.741 --> 00:28:20.262
 leads the army, the American army,
 
 00:28:21.222 --> 00:28:22.443
 away from the coast.
 
 00:28:25.065 --> 00:28:26.384
 And yes,
 
 00:28:26.424 --> 00:28:28.766
 the British have depots on the rivers.
 
 00:28:28.786 --> 00:28:29.226
 I mean,
 
 00:28:29.546 --> 00:28:31.346
 one of the differences geographically in
 
 00:28:31.406 --> 00:28:32.027
 the battles,
 
 00:28:32.106 --> 00:28:33.367
 in the war in the North and the
 
 00:28:33.428 --> 00:28:36.489
 South is that how many rivers, boy,
 
 00:28:36.729 --> 00:28:37.528
 you can use,
 
 00:28:37.588 --> 00:28:40.430
 but also can impede your movement in the
 
 00:28:40.470 --> 00:28:40.829
 South.
 
 00:28:41.130 --> 00:28:45.791
 So he moves his army in two flanks
 
 00:28:47.664 --> 00:28:49.826
 farther and farther from the coast.
 
 00:28:50.905 --> 00:28:53.286
 And the farther and the British under
 
 00:28:53.326 --> 00:28:56.307
 Cornwallis follow him dutifully.
 
 00:28:58.208 --> 00:28:58.948
 And as they do,
 
 00:29:00.307 --> 00:29:03.749
 they lose men and they lose supplies and
 
 00:29:03.769 --> 00:29:05.809
 they become weaker over time.
 
 00:29:06.450 --> 00:29:10.951
 And Green's idea is they're going to get
 
 00:29:11.570 --> 00:29:12.510
 to the Dan River.
 
 00:29:13.371 --> 00:29:15.311
 The Dan River is between
 
 00:29:16.722 --> 00:29:19.305
 between Virginia and North Carolina.
 
 00:29:19.325 --> 00:29:21.465
 I have friends that live up there,
 
 00:29:21.787 --> 00:29:23.008
 that are from there.
 
 00:29:23.988 --> 00:29:27.330
 And once they get there,
 
 00:29:28.811 --> 00:29:30.752
 the American soldiers will be able to
 
 00:29:30.794 --> 00:29:34.676
 cross the Dan River and rest in Virginia,
 
 00:29:34.957 --> 00:29:37.479
 which has not been picked over,
 
 00:29:38.358 --> 00:29:40.361
 pleaded of crops.
 
 00:29:40.401 --> 00:29:42.542
 And, you know, it's been...
 
 00:29:44.036 --> 00:29:45.737
 It wasn't pristine,
 
 00:29:45.757 --> 00:29:47.817
 but it's not been fought over the way
 
 00:29:47.837 --> 00:29:48.778
 the Carolinas have.
 
 00:29:49.159 --> 00:29:50.819
 So he gets his men across.
 
 00:29:51.721 --> 00:29:53.942
 They burn the bridges.
 
 00:29:53.981 --> 00:29:55.982
 They burn the boats, everything.
 
 00:29:56.743 --> 00:30:00.266
 And Cornwallis gets that far up.
 
 00:30:01.653 --> 00:30:02.594
 And he can't cross.
 
 00:30:03.836 --> 00:30:05.336
 And the Americans, meanwhile,
 
 00:30:05.376 --> 00:30:08.019
 are actually having a kind of holiday up
 
 00:30:08.060 --> 00:30:08.401
 there.
 
 00:30:09.241 --> 00:30:10.123
 They're resting.
 
 00:30:10.163 --> 00:30:11.344
 They're recuperating.
 
 00:30:11.384 --> 00:30:12.265
 They're eating.
 
 00:30:13.967 --> 00:30:15.068
 And then they get in.
 
 00:30:15.108 --> 00:30:16.730
 It's Light Horse Harry Lee.
 
 00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:19.093
 That's the first who says,
 
 00:30:19.173 --> 00:30:20.214
 I want to go back now.
 
 00:30:21.047 --> 00:30:24.890
 And he gets his troops across back south
 
 00:30:24.970 --> 00:30:28.113
 over the Dan River and into the Carolinas
 
 00:30:28.192 --> 00:30:29.875
 and continues the war there.
 
 00:30:30.734 --> 00:30:37.902
 But Green has successfully depleted the
 
 00:30:37.922 --> 00:30:41.744
 British and gotten his troops back to...
 
 00:30:44.280 --> 00:30:48.393
 a fighting form fit, fed, rested,
 
 00:30:48.894 --> 00:30:50.278
 and ready to go again.
 
 00:30:51.365 --> 00:30:54.866
 And it's great because, as you said,
 
 00:30:55.047 --> 00:30:58.209
 Green says, we fight, we get beat,
 
 00:30:58.288 --> 00:30:59.470
 we rise, we fight again.
 
 00:30:59.509 --> 00:31:00.530
 Something to that effect.
 
 00:31:00.590 --> 00:31:01.090
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:31:01.672 --> 00:31:05.134
 And here he's led the enemy to its
 
 00:31:05.213 --> 00:31:05.993
 own destruction.
 
 00:31:06.134 --> 00:31:06.674
 Right, right.
 
 00:31:06.694 --> 00:31:08.256
 And then, of course,
 
 00:31:08.296 --> 00:31:10.376
 Cornwallis thinks a good thing to do now
 
 00:31:10.416 --> 00:31:11.698
 is to set up a base on the
 
 00:31:11.738 --> 00:31:13.058
 Chesapeake at Yorktown.
 
 00:31:13.098 --> 00:31:15.720
 And then he'll be able to counter Virginia
 
 00:31:15.819 --> 00:31:17.201
 and be resupplied.
 
 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:17.662
 And that's...
 
 00:31:18.442 --> 00:31:19.722
 going to be the yeah not to be
 
 00:31:19.742 --> 00:31:24.027
 a good idea yeah and and what again
 
 00:31:24.067 --> 00:31:25.949
 what's remarkable about the standard
 
 00:31:25.969 --> 00:31:31.253
 histories is that is it and there's a
 
 00:31:31.294 --> 00:31:33.576
 lot of i i get i mean i'm
 
 00:31:33.635 --> 00:31:36.597
 surprised well i understand it on level
 
 00:31:36.637 --> 00:31:39.181
 some level i'm surprised at how often
 
 00:31:39.201 --> 00:31:41.583
 there are new as a new one by
 
 00:31:41.643 --> 00:31:43.625
 a reputable historian i won't name his
 
 00:31:43.684 --> 00:31:43.904
 name
 
 00:31:45.434 --> 00:31:46.394
 that's again,
 
 00:31:46.474 --> 00:31:48.635
 it's about the build up to the war.
 
 00:31:50.057 --> 00:31:51.436
 All that happens, you know,
 
 00:31:51.477 --> 00:31:53.458
 you've got the Boston Tea Party and
 
 00:31:53.538 --> 00:31:54.778
 Lexington and Concord,
 
 00:31:54.798 --> 00:31:56.199
 the Declaration of Independence,
 
 00:31:56.878 --> 00:32:00.820
 Valley Forge and Monmouth in June of
 
 00:32:00.861 --> 00:32:02.622
 seventeen seventy eight.
 
 00:32:02.642 --> 00:32:02.741
 Right.
 
 00:32:02.761 --> 00:32:05.423
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:05.462 --> 00:32:07.703
 The endless appetite for this material.
 
 00:32:07.723 --> 00:32:07.804
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:08.183 --> 00:32:09.183
 Yeah.
 
 00:32:09.243 --> 00:32:09.943
 And right now,
 
 00:32:09.983 --> 00:32:11.744
 the Declaration of Independence and all of
 
 00:32:11.765 --> 00:32:12.585
 that, I get it.
 
 00:32:12.684 --> 00:32:14.105
 But but
 
 00:32:17.949 --> 00:32:22.609
 I'm still mystified to some degree by the,
 
 00:32:23.730 --> 00:32:25.911
 how exciting and determining,
 
 00:32:26.030 --> 00:32:30.251
 determinative the war in the South is.
 
 00:32:31.192 --> 00:32:34.273
 And the characters are so compelling.
 
 00:32:36.354 --> 00:32:39.454
 The friendship of Light Horse Harry Lee
 
 00:32:40.355 --> 00:32:43.777
 and Francis Marion is remarkable.
 
 00:32:43.916 --> 00:32:44.856
 Oh, it is, yeah.
 
 00:32:45.657 --> 00:32:46.739
 Very different people.
 
 00:32:47.179 --> 00:32:49.861
 Yeah, go ahead with that.
 
 00:32:50.721 --> 00:32:54.003
 No, I don't think Marion drinks.
 
 00:32:54.825 --> 00:32:56.185
 No, no, really.
 
 00:32:57.105 --> 00:33:01.890
 He carries a flask of vinegar or something
 
 00:33:01.950 --> 00:33:02.911
 like that.
 
 00:33:03.471 --> 00:33:05.972
 And Light Horse Harry, of course,
 
 00:33:06.153 --> 00:33:07.794
 is a Virginia gentleman.
 
 00:33:08.134 --> 00:33:08.575
 That's right.
 
 00:33:09.434 --> 00:33:09.776
 And they...
 
 00:33:11.377 --> 00:33:15.470
 lively that's right vivial gentlemanly
 
 00:33:15.971 --> 00:33:18.018
 party goer kind of way yeah
 
 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:21.181
 And yet they get along perfectly well and
 
 00:33:21.201 --> 00:33:22.260
 work well together.
 
 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:22.820
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:23.442 --> 00:33:25.122
 Lee is really the kind of officer
 
 00:33:25.162 --> 00:33:26.863
 Washington was thinking about when he
 
 00:33:26.923 --> 00:33:28.883
 wanted men of character,
 
 00:33:29.983 --> 00:33:31.263
 men of certain standing.
 
 00:33:31.423 --> 00:33:32.724
 And of course, he's Robert E.
 
 00:33:32.765 --> 00:33:33.565
 Lee's father.
 
 00:33:33.684 --> 00:33:34.045
 Robert E.
 
 00:33:34.085 --> 00:33:36.185
 Lee barely knew him because it was late
 
 00:33:36.266 --> 00:33:39.067
 in life and he was kind of estranged
 
 00:33:39.106 --> 00:33:41.147
 from the family when Robert E.
 
 00:33:41.188 --> 00:33:41.567
 Lee was alive.
 
 00:33:41.708 --> 00:33:42.688
 Yeah.
 
 00:33:42.728 --> 00:33:44.588
 I think that one thing that Washington
 
 00:33:44.648 --> 00:33:48.430
 probably would have hoped would have not
 
 00:33:50.876 --> 00:33:56.682
 been encouraged by was I think Light Horse
 
 00:33:56.741 --> 00:34:00.905
 Harry was a little too independent-minded
 
 00:34:01.386 --> 00:34:02.968
 for Washington.
 
 00:34:04.309 --> 00:34:07.792
 The Lee's are on a higher level socially
 
 00:34:07.833 --> 00:34:09.835
 than Washington was,
 
 00:34:10.496 --> 00:34:12.157
 and they set their own rules.
 
 00:34:12.898 --> 00:34:14.438
 Part of what makes them fun,
 
 00:34:15.492 --> 00:34:17.494
 people to this day, right?
 
 00:34:18.074 --> 00:34:19.574
 I don't mean historical figures,
 
 00:34:19.635 --> 00:34:21.817
 but some of these characters you still,
 
 00:34:22.556 --> 00:34:25.239
 you meet running around Richmond where I
 
 00:34:25.278 --> 00:34:25.518
 live.
 
 00:34:27.820 --> 00:34:33.585
 And so Light Horse Harry is a little,
 
 00:34:33.746 --> 00:34:35.706
 probably too independent minded for
 
 00:34:36.106 --> 00:34:36.748
 Washington.
 
 00:34:37.688 --> 00:34:39.309
 And that eager,
 
 00:34:39.409 --> 00:34:41.251
 being eager to cross the Dan River and
 
 00:34:41.271 --> 00:34:42.351
 go back into battle.
 
 00:34:42.972 --> 00:34:44.853
 But also over time,
 
 00:34:46.414 --> 00:34:47.815
 I think he was probably,
 
 00:34:47.835 --> 00:34:48.715
 I can't remember exactly,
 
 00:34:48.735 --> 00:34:50.297
 I think he was probably an alcoholic.
 
 00:34:51.838 --> 00:34:54.380
 I think he lost the fortune at some
 
 00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:55.641
 point later in life.
 
 00:34:56.621 --> 00:34:58.643
 And it was while he was in debtor's
 
 00:34:58.722 --> 00:35:02.925
 prison that he wrote one of the early
 
 00:35:03.467 --> 00:35:05.188
 histories of the American Revolution.
 
 00:35:05.487 --> 00:35:06.849
 Tarleton wrote one as well.
 
 00:35:09.873 --> 00:35:12.773
 But Light Horse Harry is just a great,
 
 00:35:13.554 --> 00:35:14.815
 lively character.
 
 00:35:14.914 --> 00:35:15.974
 And as you say,
 
 00:35:16.255 --> 00:35:18.115
 I don't think Robert knew him.
 
 00:35:19.476 --> 00:35:21.777
 Because he was living and he died in
 
 00:35:21.817 --> 00:35:25.117
 the Caribbean, I believe.
 
 00:35:25.918 --> 00:35:26.599
 I think so.
 
 00:35:26.778 --> 00:35:29.418
 And yeah, fascinating character.
 
 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:30.679
 I mean,
 
 00:35:30.699 --> 00:35:32.179
 there's so many different characters we
 
 00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:33.940
 can talk about in the few minutes we
 
 00:35:34.001 --> 00:35:34.101
 have.
 
 00:35:36.541 --> 00:35:37.501
 marrying, of course, Lee.
 
 00:35:37.521 --> 00:35:38.581
 But what about Tarleton?
 
 00:35:38.621 --> 00:35:40.262
 He's someone you said that we love to
 
 00:35:40.322 --> 00:35:41.963
 hate and that they love to hate,
 
 00:35:42.003 --> 00:35:44.242
 but he's much more interesting.
 
 00:35:44.463 --> 00:35:47.483
 He's not simply a one-dimensional ogre.
 
 00:35:48.005 --> 00:35:49.364
 No, no.
 
 00:35:49.824 --> 00:35:53.045
 He's not only the man you love to
 
 00:35:53.085 --> 00:35:56.226
 hate, but the man you hate to love.
 
 00:35:57.746 --> 00:35:59.007
 He's a typical...
 
 00:36:00.338 --> 00:36:04.440
 cad in London growing up, carousing.
 
 00:36:07.561 --> 00:36:08.740
 And I think that,
 
 00:36:09.701 --> 00:36:11.581
 I can't remember who said it of him,
 
 00:36:11.702 --> 00:36:12.461
 but that he,
 
 00:36:15.103 --> 00:36:17.782
 one of his British contemporaries said
 
 00:36:17.842 --> 00:36:20.943
 something to the effect that rape was the
 
 00:36:21.443 --> 00:36:23.164
 recreation of gentlemen,
 
 00:36:23.525 --> 00:36:24.605
 or something to that effect,
 
 00:36:24.664 --> 00:36:28.106
 being critical of Tarleton and his
 
 00:36:29.824 --> 00:36:36.788
 rather scandalous early life.
 
 00:36:36.807 --> 00:36:38.469
 So he goes to the great clubs in
 
 00:36:38.568 --> 00:36:41.369
 England and cuts a figure and
 
 00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.601
 It ends up as a very young man
 
 00:36:45.641 --> 00:36:48.063
 coming to America to fight in the war
 
 00:36:48.244 --> 00:36:49.706
 and does some...
 
 00:36:49.846 --> 00:36:51.286
 I can't remember where he's really...
 
 00:36:51.547 --> 00:36:55.010
 He gets wiped out by Green at Kalpans,
 
 00:36:55.050 --> 00:36:55.271
 I believe.
 
 00:36:55.311 --> 00:36:55.431
 Right.
 
 00:36:55.451 --> 00:36:55.550
 Yeah.
 
 00:36:56.891 --> 00:36:58.393
 And that's a great battle.
 
 00:36:58.574 --> 00:37:00.255
 It is, yeah.
 
 00:37:00.295 --> 00:37:00.675
 Because...
 
 00:37:03.771 --> 00:37:06.213
 Tarleton is a cocksure character.
 
 00:37:07.893 --> 00:37:10.534
 And so what Green does, outsmarting him,
 
 00:37:10.653 --> 00:37:14.315
 takes his position on the battlefield.
 
 00:37:15.574 --> 00:37:18.556
 And Green has some men that have never
 
 00:37:18.615 --> 00:37:19.556
 seen action.
 
 00:37:20.436 --> 00:37:22.577
 So he divides them into three lines.
 
 00:37:23.056 --> 00:37:27.378
 The first line is these Green soldiers who
 
 00:37:27.398 --> 00:37:28.157
 have never seen action.
 
 00:37:29.514 --> 00:37:30.516
 never been in a battle.
 
 00:37:31.215 --> 00:37:33.416
 Second line is experienced ones.
 
 00:37:33.456 --> 00:37:35.577
 And then the third line is even more
 
 00:37:35.637 --> 00:37:37.818
 experienced than I think cavalry back
 
 00:37:37.858 --> 00:37:38.898
 there in the woods.
 
 00:37:39.898 --> 00:37:44.681
 And so Green even goes from campfire to
 
 00:37:44.721 --> 00:37:46.641
 campfire the night before and he says,
 
 00:37:48.043 --> 00:37:49.842
 here's all I expect of you to do
 
 00:37:50.003 --> 00:37:50.804
 on the front line.
 
 00:37:52.144 --> 00:37:53.324
 Fire once, twice.
 
 00:37:53.364 --> 00:37:55.266
 If you can fire your guns three times,
 
 00:37:55.326 --> 00:37:55.846
 that's great.
 
 00:37:55.885 --> 00:37:57.286
 Then you leave the battlefield.
 
 00:37:57.326 --> 00:37:57.806
 You're done.
 
 00:37:57.846 --> 00:37:59.507
 You will have done everything I expected
 
 00:37:59.527 --> 00:37:59.706
 of you.
 
 00:38:01.306 --> 00:38:04.327
 He's making their weakness into a strength
 
 00:38:04.588 --> 00:38:05.347
 in a sense.
 
 00:38:06.068 --> 00:38:09.809
 And he's expressing his confidence in
 
 00:38:09.829 --> 00:38:11.608
 their ability to do what they need to
 
 00:38:11.648 --> 00:38:14.449
 do, but he's not expecting more than that.
 
 00:38:14.789 --> 00:38:19.371
 And what happens is Tarleton charges
 
 00:38:19.931 --> 00:38:21.110
 toward that front line.
 
 00:38:21.532 --> 00:38:25.155
 The front line fires their weapons as many
 
 00:38:25.215 --> 00:38:26.536
 times as they can.
 
 00:38:27.737 --> 00:38:29.360
 And then they leave the battlefield.
 
 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:31.882
 Tarleton, in his arrogance,
 
 00:38:33.824 --> 00:38:35.864
 assumes that the battle is over.
 
 00:38:36.726 --> 00:38:38.847
 He's vanquished the enemy.
 
 00:38:38.867 --> 00:38:40.329
 They're leaving the battlefield.
 
 00:38:41.070 --> 00:38:43.331
 He charges ahead right into that second
 
 00:38:43.371 --> 00:38:44.672
 line and gets wiped out.
 
 00:38:44.693 --> 00:38:45.114
 Yeah, yeah.
 
 00:38:47.704 --> 00:38:49.923
 And the strategy is not the word,
 
 00:38:49.963 --> 00:38:53.206
 but the tactics involved on Green's part
 
 00:38:53.706 --> 00:38:55.025
 are really wonderful,
 
 00:38:55.166 --> 00:38:59.047
 and they take advantage of the weakness of
 
 00:38:59.128 --> 00:39:00.047
 his own troops.
 
 00:39:00.128 --> 00:39:00.867
 Right, right.
 
 00:39:01.248 --> 00:39:03.068
 Because typically you'd put the strongest
 
 00:39:03.108 --> 00:39:04.630
 troops at the center,
 
 00:39:04.949 --> 00:39:06.190
 and then the weaker ones you don't want
 
 00:39:06.271 --> 00:39:06.851
 engaged,
 
 00:39:06.891 --> 00:39:08.791
 but he sees you put the weaker ones
 
 00:39:08.831 --> 00:39:09.172
 here,
 
 00:39:09.552 --> 00:39:12.452
 and then the enemy isn't going to expect
 
 00:39:12.492 --> 00:39:12.652
 that.
 
 00:39:13.887 --> 00:39:16.009
 you've done this it's great and and he
 
 00:39:16.048 --> 00:39:18.190
 takes advantage of tarleton's arrogance
 
 00:39:18.429 --> 00:39:21.072
 right right yeah and it's a great victory
 
 00:39:21.112 --> 00:39:23.913
 and it's it's as a writer it's wonderful
 
 00:39:23.932 --> 00:39:26.293
 to write about yeah how can you not
 
 00:39:26.333 --> 00:39:29.096
 love these characters i know that is one
 
 00:39:29.155 --> 00:39:32.336
 of the great things about this period just
 
 00:39:32.376 --> 00:39:34.438
 briefly i mean one thing we've talked
 
 00:39:34.478 --> 00:39:36.079
 about alan over the course of doing this
 
 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:37.480
 podcast is how come there aren't
 
 00:39:38.413 --> 00:39:39.914
 Good movies about the revolution.
 
 00:39:40.135 --> 00:39:43.239
 And you mentioned The Swamp Fox again.
 
 00:39:43.298 --> 00:39:44.641
 And it's hard now to picture Leslie
 
 00:39:44.681 --> 00:39:46.663
 Nielsen doing a straight roll,
 
 00:39:46.782 --> 00:39:47.384
 which he does.
 
 00:39:47.463 --> 00:39:49.967
 The Naked Gun.
 
 00:39:50.588 --> 00:39:52.590
 That's right.
 
 00:39:52.630 --> 00:39:54.152
 Maybe we should do a Naked Gun of
 
 00:39:54.192 --> 00:39:54.972
 the revolution.
 
 00:39:55.253 --> 00:39:55.673
 But I'm wondering,
 
 00:39:55.693 --> 00:39:57.755
 do you have any revolutionary movies that
 
 00:39:57.795 --> 00:39:58.177
 you like?
 
 00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:00.382
 The Patriot is one that does deal with
 
 00:40:00.402 --> 00:40:00.963
 this period.
 
 00:40:02.606 --> 00:40:04.788
 I think I tried to watch that once
 
 00:40:05.349 --> 00:40:07.811
 and I must not have finished it.
 
 00:40:07.891 --> 00:40:08.853
 I just don't remember.
 
 00:40:08.972 --> 00:40:11.755
 I know it's the most recent books of
 
 00:40:11.775 --> 00:40:12.315
 this time.
 
 00:40:12.817 --> 00:40:14.239
 My wife and I went to see
 
 00:40:16.293 --> 00:40:19.655
 And this will answer your question in a
 
 00:40:19.695 --> 00:40:20.416
 way, I hope.
 
 00:40:21.936 --> 00:40:25.117
 We went to see Disclosure Day the other
 
 00:40:25.177 --> 00:40:25.398
 night,
 
 00:40:25.418 --> 00:40:29.159
 which is Spielberg's movie about aliens
 
 00:40:29.219 --> 00:40:30.940
 and all of that.
 
 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:34.202
 And my wife asked as we were leaving,
 
 00:40:34.282 --> 00:40:36.882
 why do aliens in movies always look alike?
 
 00:40:37.802 --> 00:40:39.583
 Mm-hmm.
 
 00:40:42.416 --> 00:40:45.177
 You wonder why do American Revolutionary
 
 00:40:45.197 --> 00:40:48.239
 War battles in movies always look alike?
 
 00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:52.222
 And it's a lack of knowledge and a
 
 00:40:52.302 --> 00:40:57.724
 lack of imagination, I suppose.
 
 00:40:57.905 --> 00:41:01.827
 And filmmakers want to give the people
 
 00:41:01.867 --> 00:41:04.588
 what they want, I suppose.
 
 00:41:09.793 --> 00:41:12.715
 I'm not sure how you could, but as,
 
 00:41:13.034 --> 00:41:13.275
 you know,
 
 00:41:13.315 --> 00:41:14.815
 I'm not sure how you could do it.
 
 00:41:15.416 --> 00:41:19.579
 It would take a lot of expertise that
 
 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:22.240
 I lack to do that.
 
 00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:26.943
 But it's very visual to show flanks of
 
 00:41:27.443 --> 00:41:32.807
 redcoats marching, you know, in step.
 
 00:41:33.128 --> 00:41:36.230
 And the good guys behind the little,
 
 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:40.563
 Stone walls firing and wiping them out.
 
 00:41:40.583 --> 00:41:41.844
 They fall in lines.
 
 00:41:42.023 --> 00:41:44.445
 And people like that.
 
 00:41:45.865 --> 00:41:47.967
 They like aliens that always look alike
 
 00:41:48.547 --> 00:41:50.469
 with the big heads and the tiny bodies.
 
 00:41:51.088 --> 00:41:52.449
 That's how we know they're aliens.
 
 00:41:52.849 --> 00:41:53.570
 That's right.
 
 00:41:53.610 --> 00:41:54.929
 That's how we know they're the British.
 
 00:41:54.949 --> 00:41:55.731
 That's right.
 
 00:41:55.811 --> 00:41:56.971
 Yeah.
 
 00:41:57.010 --> 00:41:58.112
 Well, this is a fascinating.
 
 00:41:58.132 --> 00:42:00.072
 We're talking with Alan Pell Crawford,
 
 00:42:00.112 --> 00:42:02.952
 whose most recent book is This Fierce
 
 00:42:03.012 --> 00:42:03.413
 People,
 
 00:42:03.452 --> 00:42:05.114
 The Untold Story of America's
 
 00:42:05.554 --> 00:42:07.574
 Revolutionary War in the South.
 
 00:42:08.255 --> 00:42:09.737
 Thank you so much for joining us, Alan.
 
 00:42:09.757 --> 00:42:11.159
 This has been fun talking with you,
 
 00:42:11.179 --> 00:42:12.902
 fun reading the book and hearing more
 
 00:42:12.942 --> 00:42:13.842
 about this period.
 
 00:42:15.346 --> 00:42:16.427
 So thanks for joining us.
 
 00:42:16.586 --> 00:42:18.389
 And you ask very good questions.
 
 00:42:18.911 --> 00:42:19.512
 Well, thank you.
 
 00:42:19.532 --> 00:42:20.052
 I've enjoyed it.
 
 00:42:20.632 --> 00:42:21.054
 Thank you.
 
 00:42:21.534 --> 00:42:22.936
 I'm sure I'll think of things I should
 
 00:42:22.956 --> 00:42:23.536
 have asked.
 
 00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:27.061
 And I also want to thank Jack Caddy,
 
 00:42:27.081 --> 00:42:28.681
 who's been our man behind the curtain
 
 00:42:28.701 --> 00:42:30.581
 today, and also Jonathan Lane.
 
 00:42:30.601 --> 00:42:31.862
 And if you have questions or if you
 
 00:42:31.882 --> 00:42:33.762
 want some Revolutionary War swag,
 
 00:42:33.802 --> 00:42:35.224
 send Jonathan an email.
 
 00:42:35.264 --> 00:42:37.123
 And if you're in one of these places,
 
 00:42:37.164 --> 00:42:37.963
 every week, Alan,
 
 00:42:37.983 --> 00:42:39.844
 we thank folks who are regular listeners
 
 00:42:39.864 --> 00:42:41.186
 in different parts of the country.
 
 00:42:41.606 --> 00:42:42.905
 And if you're in one of these places
 
 00:42:42.965 --> 00:42:44.987
 and want some Revolution Two-Fifty swag,
 
 00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:50.260
 evolution two five oh.org and this week I
 
 00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.782
 want to thank our listeners in Tallahassee
 
 00:42:52.822 --> 00:42:56.065
 Florida and in Falls Church Virginia Goose
 
 00:42:56.105 --> 00:42:58.547
 Creek South Carolina and Pigeon Cove
 
 00:42:58.586 --> 00:43:02.228
 Tennessee as well as Stratton Nebraska and
 
 00:43:02.389 --> 00:43:05.010
 in Edinburgh and Glasgow and here in
 
 00:43:05.050 --> 00:43:07.233
 Massachusetts and Taunton and Attleboro
 
 00:43:07.632 --> 00:43:09.474
 and in all places between and beyond
 
 00:43:09.514 --> 00:43:10.394
 thanks for joining us
 
 00:43:36.851 --> 00:43:37.253
 Great.
 
 00:43:37.313 --> 00:43:37.936
 Thank you, Alan.
 
 00:43:37.956 --> 00:43:38.940
 That was fun.
 
 00:43:39.001 --> 00:43:39.422
 Thank you.