A Dear-Bought Victory; The Battle of Bunker Hill & the Siege of Boston

The Battle of Bunker Hill was one of the defining moments of the American Revolution. Although the British claimed the battlefield, the staggering cost of victory demonstrated that defeating the colonial rebellion would be far more difficult than anyone had expected.

In this episode of the Revolution 250 Podcast, Professor Robert Allison is joined by historians Daniel T. Davis and Phillip S. Greenwalt to discuss their new book, A Dear-Bought Victory. Together they explore the Battle of Bunker Hill, the Siege of Boston, and how the opening campaign of the Revolution shaped the war that followed. From the decisions of British and American commanders to the enduring myths surrounding the battle, this conversation offers a fresh look at one of the most important military engagements in American history.

Transcript

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 hello everyone and welcome to the
 
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 revolution two fifty podcast i'm bob
 
 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:07.022
 ellison i co-chair rev two fifty we are
 
 00:00:07.203 --> 00:00:09.464
 a consortium of about seventy five
 
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 organizations involved in and around
 
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 massachusetts which has been commemorating
 
 00:00:13.766 --> 00:00:15.608
 the beginnings of american independence
 
 00:00:15.628 --> 00:00:18.649
 and our guests today are daniel t davis
 
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 who is the senior education manager at the
 
 00:00:20.650 --> 00:00:22.871
 american battlefield trust and phil
 
 00:00:22.891 --> 00:00:24.914
 greenwald who's the co-founder of emerging
 
 00:00:24.954 --> 00:00:27.875
 revolutionary war and also contributed to
 
 00:00:27.894 --> 00:00:28.795
 the emerging civil war
 
 00:00:29.365 --> 00:00:31.167
 And we're here to talk about your new
 
 00:00:31.207 --> 00:00:33.106
 book, The Idea of War Victory,
 
 00:00:33.146 --> 00:00:34.148
 The Battle of Bunker Hill,
 
 00:00:34.188 --> 00:00:35.368
 and the Siege of Boston.
 
 00:00:35.387 --> 00:00:39.268
 So Dan and Phil, thanks for joining us.
 
 00:00:39.308 --> 00:00:39.709
 Thank you.
 
 00:00:39.728 --> 00:00:43.009
 Yeah, thanks.
 
 00:00:43.030 --> 00:00:44.970
 So this is a new book about Bunker
 
 00:00:45.011 --> 00:00:45.290
 Hill.
 
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 And I'm kind of curious, what is,
 
 00:00:49.051 --> 00:00:49.652
 to you,
 
 00:00:49.892 --> 00:00:51.332
 new about the story of the Battle of
 
 00:00:51.353 --> 00:00:51.792
 Bunker Hill?
 
 00:01:02.584 --> 00:01:03.505
 I think one of the things that's
 
 00:01:03.585 --> 00:01:05.989
 interesting about Bunker Hill is that it
 
 00:01:06.009 --> 00:01:06.689
 may not be new.
 
 00:01:06.769 --> 00:01:07.912
 And I think sometimes new,
 
 00:01:08.813 --> 00:01:10.695
 new things are new things that we find
 
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 in history can be there like right away.
 
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 in front of us in hidden in plain
 
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 sight if you will uh at times and
 
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 one of the more fascinating things I I
 
 00:01:21.346 --> 00:01:22.808
 I found about Bunker Hill and going back
 
 00:01:22.847 --> 00:01:25.390
 and tracing the British assault on breeds
 
 00:01:25.430 --> 00:01:27.912
 Hill and Prescott's readout the afternoon
 
 00:01:27.933 --> 00:01:32.316
 evening of June the people talk about the
 
 00:01:32.337 --> 00:01:34.337
 casualties and the British obviously they
 
 00:01:34.379 --> 00:01:36.200
 look they took a severe amount of
 
 00:01:36.219 --> 00:01:38.322
 casualties during uh that fighting and
 
 00:01:38.361 --> 00:01:39.102
 killed and wounded
 
 00:01:39.643 --> 00:01:42.403
 and how it influences the British mindset
 
 00:01:42.743 --> 00:01:43.763
 as the war goes along,
 
 00:01:43.823 --> 00:01:45.403
 particularly that of the soon-to-be
 
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 commander-in-chief of the British Army,
 
 00:01:47.265 --> 00:01:47.924
 Sir William Howe.
 
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 And people talk about, well,
 
 00:01:49.245 --> 00:01:50.584
 Howe was attempting to, you know,
 
 00:01:50.784 --> 00:01:52.525
 in his later battles at Long Island,
 
 00:01:52.546 --> 00:01:53.585
 which we're about to commemorate the
 
 00:01:53.605 --> 00:01:55.546
 two-hundred-fifteenth anniversary of,
 
 00:01:55.566 --> 00:01:57.066
 and later on at Brandywine during the
 
 00:01:57.087 --> 00:01:58.126
 Philadelphia campaign,
 
 00:01:58.507 --> 00:01:59.966
 Howe used these flanking movements.
 
 00:01:59.986 --> 00:02:02.048
 He did not want to attack the Continentals
 
 00:02:02.087 --> 00:02:03.548
 head-on because of the losses at Bunker
 
 00:02:03.567 --> 00:02:03.787
 Hill.
 
 00:02:04.028 --> 00:02:05.349
 But I think people tend to forget that
 
 00:02:06.168 --> 00:02:06.549
 Howe's
 
 00:02:07.009 --> 00:02:10.150
 initial effort at Bunker Hill was a
 
 00:02:10.189 --> 00:02:10.849
 flanking movement.
 
 00:02:11.570 --> 00:02:14.412
 He wanted to get around the rear of
 
 00:02:14.451 --> 00:02:16.832
 Prescott's Redoubt on Buriette's Hill by
 
 00:02:16.872 --> 00:02:18.312
 attacking along the bank of the Mystic
 
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 River to sort of cut off the militia
 
 00:02:22.594 --> 00:02:24.455
 from retreating across Charlestown Neck.
 
 00:02:24.955 --> 00:02:27.076
 So he was being influenced by those
 
 00:02:27.097 --> 00:02:28.977
 flanking maneuvers, even at Bunker Hill,
 
 00:02:29.377 --> 00:02:31.377
 and it was just attacking that he would
 
 00:02:31.397 --> 00:02:32.938
 just go back to the well over and
 
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 over again through the course of his time
 
 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:36.120
 as commander-in-chief.
 
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 Certainly,
 
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 so kind of building on that as well
 
 00:02:42.487 --> 00:02:45.631
 is I challenge people to think of another
 
 00:02:46.330 --> 00:02:48.793
 land battle in American military history
 
 00:02:49.372 --> 00:02:52.735
 that is a defeat that has a bigger
 
 00:02:54.012 --> 00:02:56.093
 imprint on our historical memory.
 
 00:02:56.114 --> 00:02:58.474
 I mean, Bunker Hill, for most people,
 
 00:02:58.514 --> 00:02:59.776
 even if you know nothing about it,
 
 00:02:59.915 --> 00:03:01.296
 you've at least heard of the Battle of
 
 00:03:01.317 --> 00:03:01.877
 Bunker Hill.
 
 00:03:02.557 --> 00:03:02.957
 And I think,
 
 00:03:03.518 --> 00:03:04.938
 borrowing a term from some of my real
 
 00:03:04.959 --> 00:03:06.800
 estate friends, it's location, location,
 
 00:03:06.841 --> 00:03:07.360
 location.
 
 00:03:07.860 --> 00:03:10.842
 And that is what I think the Bunker
 
 00:03:10.862 --> 00:03:11.644
 Hills have, of course,
 
 00:03:11.663 --> 00:03:14.985
 been overgrown by Charlestown and Boston.
 
 00:03:15.086 --> 00:03:16.227
 Everyone sees the monument,
 
 00:03:16.266 --> 00:03:18.907
 sees the little postage stamp size there
 
 00:03:18.927 --> 00:03:20.429
 on top, but they don't realize...
 
 00:03:21.569 --> 00:03:23.871
 that the very ground walking up there is
 
 00:03:23.931 --> 00:03:24.591
 hollow ground.
 
 00:03:24.811 --> 00:03:26.711
 Or as we show in the book,
 
 00:03:27.051 --> 00:03:27.853
 the rail line fence,
 
 00:03:27.893 --> 00:03:30.653
 which defended the American left flank,
 
 00:03:30.713 --> 00:03:33.854
 which stopped Howe's flanking attack,
 
 00:03:34.395 --> 00:03:35.515
 there's still a marker there.
 
 00:03:35.575 --> 00:03:37.516
 So it was uncovering things that kind of
 
 00:03:37.616 --> 00:03:38.737
 right there in plain sight,
 
 00:03:39.038 --> 00:03:41.538
 but also peeling back the myths and
 
 00:03:41.579 --> 00:03:44.620
 bringing the people who displayed it and
 
 00:03:44.659 --> 00:03:45.681
 fought there and bled there.
 
 00:03:47.122 --> 00:03:49.682
 As well as alluding to what Dan was
 
 00:03:49.703 --> 00:03:51.103
 saying, I mean, almost, what,
 
 00:03:51.122 --> 00:03:52.804
 thirty-five to forty percent of the
 
 00:03:52.903 --> 00:03:54.783
 officer casualties suffered by the British
 
 00:03:55.223 --> 00:03:57.284
 during the Revolution will fall at Bunker
 
 00:03:57.344 --> 00:03:57.604
 Hill.
 
 00:03:58.305 --> 00:04:00.165
 So the psyche of that as well.
 
 00:04:01.105 --> 00:04:01.705
 And so, yeah,
 
 00:04:01.725 --> 00:04:05.347
 it has a larger life effect on the
 
 00:04:05.366 --> 00:04:06.647
 next eight years of war.
 
 00:04:07.288 --> 00:04:08.929
 And it's the last engagement before you
 
 00:04:08.989 --> 00:04:10.068
 tie George Washington
 
 00:04:10.769 --> 00:04:11.588
 with the bigger picture.
 
 00:04:11.990 --> 00:04:12.509
 And of course,
 
 00:04:12.569 --> 00:04:13.770
 the last thing I'll say at the
 
 00:04:13.810 --> 00:04:16.411
 introduction is if you ask anybody about
 
 00:04:16.432 --> 00:04:17.052
 Bunker Hill,
 
 00:04:17.752 --> 00:04:19.233
 they think of don't fire until you see
 
 00:04:19.252 --> 00:04:20.132
 the whites of their eyes.
 
 00:04:20.173 --> 00:04:22.194
 So it was always painful to peel that
 
 00:04:22.254 --> 00:04:22.853
 myth back.
 
 00:04:23.915 --> 00:04:26.555
 My third grade self was a little upset
 
 00:04:26.596 --> 00:04:31.057
 that, hey, this was probably never said.
 
 00:04:31.098 --> 00:04:31.937
 Well, thanks, Phil,
 
 00:04:31.958 --> 00:04:33.399
 for busting that particular.
 
 00:04:33.418 --> 00:04:37.821
 And again, there are a lot
 
 00:04:44.408 --> 00:04:45.310
 This is now,
 
 00:04:46.591 --> 00:04:47.692
 there's a marker that this is actually
 
 00:04:47.711 --> 00:04:48.172
 where most of the,
 
 00:04:48.192 --> 00:04:50.533
 much of the things that happened in the
 
 00:04:50.574 --> 00:04:52.334
 cabin along that flanking line.
 
 00:04:52.975 --> 00:04:53.915
 And, you know,
 
 00:04:53.935 --> 00:04:56.478
 we see the hill and not the fact
 
 00:04:56.497 --> 00:04:58.579
 that it was this flank where most of
 
 00:04:58.639 --> 00:04:59.920
 the, you know, start with their,
 
 00:04:59.961 --> 00:05:00.401
 the rail fence.
 
 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:02.442
 Almost,
 
 00:05:03.043 --> 00:05:04.665
 is it an accident that struck it there?
 
 00:05:04.805 --> 00:05:09.749
 Or is it just a coordinated plan on
 
 00:05:09.769 --> 00:05:11.569
 the part of the Americans?
 
 00:05:13.495 --> 00:05:15.598
 Either one of you, Dan or Phil.
 
 00:05:15.718 --> 00:05:16.418
 Yeah,
 
 00:05:16.437 --> 00:05:17.678
 I think it's not so much part of
 
 00:05:17.699 --> 00:05:18.480
 a coordinated plan.
 
 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:21.242
 I think when Stark is coming in from
 
 00:05:21.262 --> 00:05:23.144
 Charlestown, he's arriving on the field.
 
 00:05:24.365 --> 00:05:26.326
 He comes up top Bunker Hill,
 
 00:05:26.346 --> 00:05:28.468
 and he has a view of the Charlestown
 
 00:05:28.507 --> 00:05:28.987
 Peninsula.
 
 00:05:29.007 --> 00:05:31.610
 He can see below him Breed's Hill and
 
 00:05:31.649 --> 00:05:32.591
 Prescott's Readout.
 
 00:05:32.630 --> 00:05:34.372
 He can also see some Connecticut militia
 
 00:05:34.391 --> 00:05:35.593
 under David Nolten, I believe,
 
 00:05:36.353 --> 00:05:38.815
 forming near the rail fence.
 
 00:05:39.175 --> 00:05:42.077
 And so naturally, what Stark does is,
 
 00:05:42.137 --> 00:05:42.639
 as you can see,
 
 00:05:42.658 --> 00:05:44.139
 the British also out in front of him,
 
 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:46.081
 looking toward Moulton's Point,
 
 00:05:46.101 --> 00:05:47.062
 the modern Charlestown Navy,
 
 00:05:47.081 --> 00:05:48.824
 where the Constitution is located.
 
 00:05:49.423 --> 00:05:53.468
 He sees that the militia is sort of
 
 00:05:53.528 --> 00:05:56.149
 extending their line toward the Mystic
 
 00:05:56.209 --> 00:05:56.509
 River.
 
 00:05:57.151 --> 00:05:57.810
 And he just, I think,
 
 00:05:57.870 --> 00:06:01.033
 naturally just fills in the line and
 
 00:06:01.413 --> 00:06:02.175
 deploys his men,
 
 00:06:02.194 --> 00:06:03.115
 his New Hampshire militia,
 
 00:06:03.134 --> 00:06:03.755
 along the beach.
 
 00:06:06.166 --> 00:06:06.346
 Yes.
 
 00:06:07.608 --> 00:06:07.869
 I mean,
 
 00:06:09.971 --> 00:06:14.218
 so you do have this area that is
 
 00:06:14.278 --> 00:06:14.899
 left unattended.
 
 00:06:14.999 --> 00:06:16.000
 I mean, obviously,
 
 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:17.701
 when Prescott starts building,
 
 00:06:17.742 --> 00:06:19.404
 they build on Breed's Hill instead of
 
 00:06:19.444 --> 00:06:20.064
 Bunker Hill.
 
 00:06:20.326 --> 00:06:21.987
 You have this extended left flank.
 
 00:06:23.529 --> 00:06:26.050
 Thomas Knowlton's Connecticut, I think,
 
 00:06:26.071 --> 00:06:26.851
 troops down there.
 
 00:06:27.612 --> 00:06:29.072
 Then you have two regiments,
 
 00:06:29.132 --> 00:06:30.994
 and I think building on just the
 
 00:06:31.014 --> 00:06:32.595
 leadership, you see this,
 
 00:06:33.615 --> 00:06:36.076
 you could have three men defend your left
 
 00:06:36.096 --> 00:06:37.538
 flank or this early in the war.
 
 00:06:37.858 --> 00:06:39.077
 Knowlton, Stark,
 
 00:06:39.197 --> 00:06:41.178
 and then Reed is in charge of the
 
 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:44.141
 other New Hampshire regiment that arrives.
 
 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:47.043
 These are great officers that understand
 
 00:06:48.343 --> 00:06:49.264
 what they're about.
 
 00:06:49.463 --> 00:06:50.845
 Stark, of course,
 
 00:06:51.524 --> 00:06:53.807
 understands the militia he goes out in
 
 00:06:53.826 --> 00:06:55.187
 front of the line puts a stake in
 
 00:06:55.208 --> 00:06:56.889
 the ground and says okay don't fire until
 
 00:06:56.968 --> 00:06:58.970
 you hit see the men hit this area
 
 00:06:59.771 --> 00:07:01.891
 um also you have to appreciate that the
 
 00:07:02.052 --> 00:07:04.213
 um the topography has changed a little bit
 
 00:07:04.293 --> 00:07:06.776
 and so the mystic river has expanded and
 
 00:07:06.815 --> 00:07:08.997
 so forth in that area so this is
 
 00:07:09.117 --> 00:07:12.218
 a causeway it is a perfect um kind
 
 00:07:12.238 --> 00:07:14.440
 of funnel for defense um and you can
 
 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.983
 see uh well dan can um give you
 
 00:07:17.002 --> 00:07:18.723
 the correct me if i'm wrong here but
 
 00:07:19.536 --> 00:07:21.338
 Hal thinks, okay, I'm not even willing.
 
 00:07:21.678 --> 00:07:23.761
 He's going to kind of bull rush these
 
 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:24.120
 men.
 
 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.244
 And he's going to Rick Stark and his
 
 00:07:27.944 --> 00:07:28.884
 New Hampshire men,
 
 00:07:29.005 --> 00:07:31.327
 the Connecticut soldiers, nutmeggers,
 
 00:07:31.348 --> 00:07:32.908
 or whatever you call the men from
 
 00:07:32.949 --> 00:07:34.750
 Connecticut, stack them up.
 
 00:07:35.190 --> 00:07:36.692
 And I think that kind of goes, OK,
 
 00:07:36.752 --> 00:07:40.153
 it derails Hal's plan on the flank attack,
 
 00:07:40.173 --> 00:07:41.973
 because he runs into the stout resistance.
 
 00:07:42.353 --> 00:07:43.555
 But it's a keen eye by a guy
 
 00:07:43.574 --> 00:07:44.475
 named John Stark.
 
 00:07:45.596 --> 00:07:48.476
 It is Thomas Dalton, James Reed,
 
 00:07:48.596 --> 00:07:51.478
 these guys that are some are house-known
 
 00:07:51.517 --> 00:07:51.937
 figures.
 
 00:07:52.117 --> 00:07:53.319
 Some, unfortunately, like Dalton,
 
 00:07:53.338 --> 00:07:54.639
 will be killed during the war.
 
 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:57.180
 But yeah, they hold out,
 
 00:07:57.281 --> 00:08:00.041
 and they take advantage of an open space
 
 00:08:00.221 --> 00:08:02.403
 and a great, what do you call it,
 
 00:08:02.442 --> 00:08:03.843
 field of fire or so forth.
 
 00:08:04.963 --> 00:08:06.805
 as the british smarts right into it but
 
 00:08:07.245 --> 00:08:09.785
 um british are expecting these militia to
 
 00:08:09.824 --> 00:08:16.047
 run yeah and to phil's to phil's point
 
 00:08:16.187 --> 00:08:19.807
 also it's generally believed and i i
 
 00:08:19.827 --> 00:08:22.369
 believe this as well from his view point
 
 00:08:22.649 --> 00:08:23.309
 on moulton's
 
 00:08:23.918 --> 00:08:27.300
 point how was not able to see i
 
 00:08:27.321 --> 00:08:29.562
 think he was able to see stark deploy
 
 00:08:30.101 --> 00:08:31.822
 i don't think he was able to see
 
 00:08:31.843 --> 00:08:33.484
 where they actually the actual location
 
 00:08:33.504 --> 00:08:36.145
 their position on the beach and the light
 
 00:08:36.166 --> 00:08:37.886
 infantry companies who attack that stark's
 
 00:08:38.506 --> 00:08:40.707
 position they just get shredded how pulls
 
 00:08:40.727 --> 00:08:42.609
 them off the beach and for the remainder
 
 00:08:42.629 --> 00:08:44.629
 of the battle his focus is on the
 
 00:08:44.669 --> 00:08:47.871
 rail fence the fleshes and the readout on
 
 00:08:47.932 --> 00:08:49.332
 breeds hill he doesn't launch another
 
 00:08:49.373 --> 00:08:50.833
 attack that he doesn't
 
 00:08:51.374 --> 00:08:52.875
 launched another flanking maneuver along
 
 00:08:52.894 --> 00:08:56.635
 the beach after that initial repulse.
 
 00:08:56.676 --> 00:08:58.696
 We're talking with Phil Greenwald and Dan
 
 00:08:58.716 --> 00:08:59.216
 Davis,
 
 00:08:59.236 --> 00:09:01.356
 whose new book is A Deer-Bought Victory,
 
 00:09:01.736 --> 00:09:02.898
 The Battle of Bunker Hill,
 
 00:09:02.918 --> 00:09:04.258
 which is part of the emerging
 
 00:09:04.317 --> 00:09:05.538
 Revolutionary War series.
 
 00:09:05.557 --> 00:09:07.139
 What can we tell us
 
 00:09:16.409 --> 00:09:17.289
 It's a great experience.
 
 00:09:17.309 --> 00:09:17.490
 Sure.
 
 00:09:17.951 --> 00:09:20.951
 So it kind of, we took the idea,
 
 00:09:21.032 --> 00:09:23.413
 expanded it out from the emerging Civil
 
 00:09:23.432 --> 00:09:23.972
 War series.
 
 00:09:23.993 --> 00:09:27.815
 The emerging Revolutionary War series is
 
 00:09:28.335 --> 00:09:30.456
 hopefully the first book to pick up.
 
 00:09:31.655 --> 00:09:34.879
 And our goal was to turn that grass
 
 00:09:34.899 --> 00:09:37.582
 field or where the monument is back into
 
 00:09:37.643 --> 00:09:39.163
 hollowed ground and tell the stories of
 
 00:09:39.203 --> 00:09:39.745
 what happened.
 
 00:09:40.505 --> 00:09:43.369
 And that provided accessible readership to
 
 00:09:43.389 --> 00:09:44.931
 kind of, okay, here's what,
 
 00:09:45.350 --> 00:09:46.572
 if you know nothing about the
 
 00:09:46.613 --> 00:09:47.432
 Revolutionary War,
 
 00:09:47.913 --> 00:09:49.075
 we'll get you primed with a good
 
 00:09:49.115 --> 00:09:49.775
 foundation.
 
 00:09:50.297 --> 00:09:51.158
 If you know a little bit,
 
 00:09:51.677 --> 00:09:52.879
 that you want more detail,
 
 00:09:53.259 --> 00:09:55.519
 but also be a connector into these larger
 
 00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:57.500
 books you see at the Barnes and Nobles
 
 00:09:57.581 --> 00:09:58.600
 or your local bookshop.
 
 00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:00.501
 And that way, hey,
 
 00:10:00.581 --> 00:10:01.702
 here's what you should read.
 
 00:10:01.722 --> 00:10:03.243
 We have a suggested reading in the back
 
 00:10:03.423 --> 00:10:04.244
 if you want to know more.
 
 00:10:04.912 --> 00:10:07.712
 But Dan and I both come from public
 
 00:10:07.732 --> 00:10:10.033
 history backgrounds, the power of place,
 
 00:10:10.114 --> 00:10:11.474
 getting people onto these fields,
 
 00:10:11.494 --> 00:10:12.793
 getting them onto these spots,
 
 00:10:13.234 --> 00:10:14.835
 kind of emerged them into the history.
 
 00:10:15.434 --> 00:10:16.195
 And that's the goal.
 
 00:10:16.615 --> 00:10:18.615
 We have an enthusiasm and a passion for
 
 00:10:18.655 --> 00:10:18.775
 it.
 
 00:10:18.956 --> 00:10:21.716
 And we wanted to give that some type
 
 00:10:21.736 --> 00:10:22.456
 of accessibility.
 
 00:10:22.937 --> 00:10:24.317
 And that was these books here.
 
 00:10:25.597 --> 00:10:28.701
 And so I think the question was what's
 
 00:10:28.721 --> 00:10:30.884
 coming down the pipeline.
 
 00:10:31.364 --> 00:10:32.966
 We're trying to tie as much into the
 
 00:10:33.005 --> 00:10:34.267
 two fiftieths possible.
 
 00:10:35.467 --> 00:10:36.789
 So that way we have these books rolling
 
 00:10:36.929 --> 00:10:38.672
 out and so people can take them to
 
 00:10:38.711 --> 00:10:40.413
 these events and so forth.
 
 00:10:41.173 --> 00:10:43.797
 And we're also trying to contemplate going
 
 00:10:43.817 --> 00:10:44.837
 into maybe some of the
 
 00:10:45.958 --> 00:10:49.380
 the uh figures that are known but we
 
 00:10:49.421 --> 00:10:50.961
 think are well known but peeling back a
 
 00:10:50.981 --> 00:10:53.083
 little bit more the human side so like
 
 00:10:53.163 --> 00:10:54.565
 one just came out about john adams in
 
 00:10:54.585 --> 00:10:56.225
 the american revolution and the city's all
 
 00:10:56.245 --> 00:10:59.668
 the other ideas down so um we're hoping
 
 00:10:59.707 --> 00:11:01.808
 to cover the entire um where there's so
 
 00:11:01.828 --> 00:11:03.090
 many wars and i guess that's one of
 
 00:11:03.129 --> 00:11:05.751
 the twenty thirty one with battles and
 
 00:11:05.772 --> 00:11:07.832
 then twenty thirty three with uh some of
 
 00:11:07.852 --> 00:11:09.975
 the political side great
 
 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:12.142
 It's very ambitious.
 
 00:11:12.282 --> 00:11:13.544
 And both of you come at this,
 
 00:11:13.565 --> 00:11:14.067
 as you mentioned,
 
 00:11:14.106 --> 00:11:16.030
 from a public history background.
 
 00:11:16.051 --> 00:11:18.657
 So how does that play into the way
 
 00:11:18.677 --> 00:11:20.160
 you then present the story in your book?
 
 00:11:24.698 --> 00:11:27.543
 i think it helps us present the story
 
 00:11:27.643 --> 00:11:30.927
 beyond you know the usual the dates the
 
 00:11:30.947 --> 00:11:33.090
 facts this battle happened here it allows
 
 00:11:33.149 --> 00:11:34.831
 us to connect the readers and connect the
 
 00:11:34.851 --> 00:11:38.636
 general public with people of the past i
 
 00:11:38.677 --> 00:11:40.700
 think that's always been i always look to
 
 00:11:40.740 --> 00:11:42.221
 individuals in the past because
 
 00:11:42.721 --> 00:11:44.361
 I mean, obviously we're all people,
 
 00:11:44.422 --> 00:11:46.302
 but I think we tend to gravitate toward
 
 00:11:46.322 --> 00:11:48.062
 the individuals who we see similar traits
 
 00:11:48.163 --> 00:11:50.504
 in that we view ourselves in.
 
 00:11:50.903 --> 00:11:53.684
 And I think that we use that as
 
 00:11:53.705 --> 00:11:59.505
 a way to draw in other individuals.
 
 00:11:59.645 --> 00:12:00.626
 And I think a lot of part,
 
 00:12:00.826 --> 00:12:01.767
 at least with Bunker Hill,
 
 00:12:02.326 --> 00:12:04.488
 We talked a lot about the individual
 
 00:12:04.528 --> 00:12:05.467
 militia officers.
 
 00:12:05.488 --> 00:12:08.109
 We talked about the British officers who
 
 00:12:08.129 --> 00:12:09.710
 were there giving the backgrounds and
 
 00:12:09.730 --> 00:12:12.811
 their service and to some degree their
 
 00:12:12.850 --> 00:12:13.650
 future service.
 
 00:12:14.351 --> 00:12:16.491
 You have three major generals at the
 
 00:12:16.711 --> 00:12:18.413
 famous three major journals at Bunker Hill
 
 00:12:18.773 --> 00:12:20.854
 will all play a critical role in the
 
 00:12:20.874 --> 00:12:21.933
 American Revolution.
 
 00:12:21.974 --> 00:12:22.554
 William Howe,
 
 00:12:22.575 --> 00:12:24.414
 John Burgoyne and Henry Clinton in some
 
 00:12:24.835 --> 00:12:25.836
 way, shape or form.
 
 00:12:25.855 --> 00:12:29.897
 So I think making that generalist story
 
 00:12:29.937 --> 00:12:31.258
 palatable for the public
 
 00:12:32.575 --> 00:12:34.934
 and introducing them to people of the past
 
 00:12:34.975 --> 00:12:37.176
 is a way to get them interested and
 
 00:12:37.375 --> 00:12:39.456
 just spark further interest in studying.
 
 00:12:41.256 --> 00:12:42.076
 And building on that point,
 
 00:12:42.116 --> 00:12:44.736
 Dan and I both got our teeth with
 
 00:12:44.976 --> 00:12:46.456
 the National Park Service early on.
 
 00:12:46.477 --> 00:12:48.677
 We luckily have some great historians kind
 
 00:12:48.717 --> 00:12:51.298
 of teach us the ropes of making those
 
 00:12:51.357 --> 00:12:52.458
 emotional connections,
 
 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:53.798
 making those comparisons.
 
 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:56.139
 Because no matter what battlefield or
 
 00:12:56.178 --> 00:12:57.940
 historic site you go to, everyone's, oh,
 
 00:12:57.960 --> 00:12:59.419
 I would have been to George Washington or
 
 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:00.200
 I would have been this.
 
 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:02.501
 well there's hundreds of thousands of men
 
 00:13:02.542 --> 00:13:04.504
 that followed these gentlemen in into
 
 00:13:04.543 --> 00:13:07.067
 battle and at the war to stand there
 
 00:13:07.086 --> 00:13:09.269
 at the readout or at the rail fence
 
 00:13:09.849 --> 00:13:13.232
 um and then play major parts but um
 
 00:13:13.253 --> 00:13:15.254
 people want to know yeah um what was
 
 00:13:15.315 --> 00:13:17.576
 it like for the individual what what um
 
 00:13:18.076 --> 00:13:19.318
 what did they sacrifice what did they
 
 00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:21.380
 suffer what did what did freedom meant for
 
 00:13:21.421 --> 00:13:22.000
 them um
 
 00:13:22.782 --> 00:13:23.662
 As a saying,
 
 00:13:23.721 --> 00:13:25.903
 I like to say a lot when I'm
 
 00:13:25.942 --> 00:13:27.923
 working at military parks is you don't
 
 00:13:27.943 --> 00:13:30.585
 find patriotism in a foxhole.
 
 00:13:31.044 --> 00:13:33.186
 So these guys are fighting for something.
 
 00:13:34.066 --> 00:13:34.485
 Why?
 
 00:13:34.846 --> 00:13:36.147
 And so that's what resonates,
 
 00:13:36.506 --> 00:13:38.388
 the power of place going back to that.
 
 00:13:38.908 --> 00:13:41.068
 I'm discovering that the stories that
 
 00:13:41.928 --> 00:13:43.529
 I mean, some of these guys are farmers.
 
 00:13:43.549 --> 00:13:44.171
 The next thing you know,
 
 00:13:44.191 --> 00:13:46.653
 they're fighting the British army coming
 
 00:13:46.692 --> 00:13:47.212
 up the hill.
 
 00:13:48.033 --> 00:13:49.735
 And the leadership of guys like Prescott,
 
 00:13:49.774 --> 00:13:51.976
 who seem as a flash in the pan,
 
 00:13:52.017 --> 00:13:53.998
 but he provides, I mean,
 
 00:13:54.077 --> 00:13:55.879
 one of the greatest character-based
 
 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:56.879
 leadership traits,
 
 00:13:57.260 --> 00:13:59.241
 understanding who he's with and so forth.
 
 00:14:00.202 --> 00:14:01.104
 And yeah, both sides.
 
 00:14:01.144 --> 00:14:01.683
 I mean,
 
 00:14:01.724 --> 00:14:03.625
 what happens with the British leadership
 
 00:14:03.706 --> 00:14:04.265
 and so forth?
 
 00:14:04.306 --> 00:14:06.288
 But also the men that are fighting in
 
 00:14:06.307 --> 00:14:07.388
 the British army as well.
 
 00:14:07.447 --> 00:14:08.629
 Why are they in Boston?
 
 00:14:08.850 --> 00:14:09.549
 What do they think?
 
 00:14:11.350 --> 00:14:12.692
 What are they dealing with environmental
 
 00:14:12.731 --> 00:14:14.273
 concerns as well?
 
 00:14:14.413 --> 00:14:15.953
 I'm getting used to that.
 
 00:14:15.974 --> 00:14:18.096
 So it's just, we're humans.
 
 00:14:18.355 --> 00:14:19.797
 We tend to put history in a box
 
 00:14:19.836 --> 00:14:21.138
 and then move it forward and think
 
 00:14:21.158 --> 00:14:22.219
 everything's black and white,
 
 00:14:22.558 --> 00:14:23.759
 but there's so much gray area.
 
 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:25.900
 And I think that what people want today
 
 00:14:25.961 --> 00:14:28.001
 is to relate to it, to connect.
 
 00:14:28.503 --> 00:14:30.323
 Why should we celebrate two hundred fifty
 
 00:14:30.344 --> 00:14:30.624
 years?
 
 00:14:31.565 --> 00:14:31.784
 Well,
 
 00:14:32.044 --> 00:14:33.725
 there's plenty of people that have good
 
 00:14:33.765 --> 00:14:36.227
 examples that need to be uncovered to make
 
 00:14:36.268 --> 00:14:38.990
 up the whole fabric of what was considered
 
 00:14:39.049 --> 00:14:40.191
 an amazing,
 
 00:14:41.611 --> 00:14:43.273
 against the biggest MPOC in the world.
 
 00:14:44.013 --> 00:14:45.715
 Like a sixteen seed beating a one seed
 
 00:14:45.754 --> 00:14:47.395
 in the NCAA tournament.
 
 00:14:47.535 --> 00:14:49.417
 So, yeah.
 
 00:14:49.518 --> 00:14:51.578
 Certainly one way of putting it.
 
 00:14:51.658 --> 00:14:53.259
 And each of you have worked a lot
 
 00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:54.100
 on both the Civil War
 
 00:14:56.833 --> 00:14:59.416
 contributor to the emerging civil war um
 
 00:14:59.856 --> 00:15:01.238
 and you know Dan you've been an
 
 00:15:01.278 --> 00:15:05.981
 interpreter in Fredericksburg and at
 
 00:15:06.042 --> 00:15:08.464
 Appomattox of course I wonder what are
 
 00:15:08.543 --> 00:15:10.926
 some similarities differences you see
 
 00:15:11.186 --> 00:15:13.067
 either in the words or the way people
 
 00:15:13.148 --> 00:15:16.070
 understand them to think about them as you
 
 00:15:16.149 --> 00:15:18.611
 in your experience as public historians as
 
 00:15:18.672 --> 00:15:21.595
 well as in as in uncovering history
 
 00:15:23.323 --> 00:15:26.046
 I think it's really interesting that if
 
 00:15:26.066 --> 00:15:29.126
 you look at the Revolutionary War
 
 00:15:29.167 --> 00:15:30.447
 generation, the Civil War generation,
 
 00:15:30.467 --> 00:15:32.408
 the Civil War generation is not that much
 
 00:15:32.469 --> 00:15:35.770
 far removed from the American Revolution.
 
 00:15:36.499 --> 00:15:40.200
 And I think I find it fascinating.
 
 00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:41.441
 I was just talking about this with a
 
 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:44.642
 group a couple of weekends ago that both
 
 00:15:44.682 --> 00:15:47.903
 sides with the Union Confederate side have
 
 00:15:47.962 --> 00:15:49.364
 some connection, obviously,
 
 00:15:49.923 --> 00:15:52.804
 to the American Revolution.
 
 00:15:52.904 --> 00:15:55.145
 Both sides will claim George Washington.
 
 00:15:55.645 --> 00:15:57.726
 Both sides will claim Andrew Jackson.
 
 00:15:58.331 --> 00:16:00.293
 And so I think it's fascinating to look
 
 00:16:00.332 --> 00:16:03.677
 at that within the scope of what though
 
 00:16:04.037 --> 00:16:04.778
 comparing the wars,
 
 00:16:04.817 --> 00:16:06.360
 but also going back to what we've been
 
 00:16:06.379 --> 00:16:07.421
 talking about with the individuals,
 
 00:16:07.861 --> 00:16:10.524
 comparing how men on both sides look back
 
 00:16:10.804 --> 00:16:13.307
 on the American Revolution and the major
 
 00:16:14.028 --> 00:16:15.289
 players of the.
 
 00:16:16.471 --> 00:16:18.493
 the major characters of the revolution.
 
 00:16:18.533 --> 00:16:20.413
 I did mention Andrew Jackson.
 
 00:16:20.514 --> 00:16:23.395
 Andrew Jackson is a courier with William
 
 00:16:23.416 --> 00:16:26.057
 Richardson Navy's militia in South
 
 00:16:26.097 --> 00:16:26.638
 Carolina.
 
 00:16:26.658 --> 00:16:28.019
 He's at the Battle of Hanging Rock.
 
 00:16:28.339 --> 00:16:29.039
 He's jailed.
 
 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:32.782
 He's a prisoner of war in Camden,
 
 00:16:33.363 --> 00:16:34.082
 South Carolina,
 
 00:16:34.123 --> 00:16:35.604
 which was a major British outpost.
 
 00:16:35.644 --> 00:16:37.384
 So I think some people also gloss over
 
 00:16:37.966 --> 00:16:39.346
 old Hickory's role in the American
 
 00:16:39.386 --> 00:16:41.087
 Revolution, as it may have been.
 
 00:16:43.708 --> 00:16:44.009
 Yeah.
 
 00:16:44.028 --> 00:16:47.450
 You see one of the great historians who's
 
 00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:49.471
 written multiple books, John Buchanan,
 
 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:51.270
 said that the Civil War was just finishing
 
 00:16:51.490 --> 00:16:53.292
 unfinished business for the American
 
 00:16:53.331 --> 00:16:53.892
 Revolution.
 
 00:16:55.091 --> 00:16:56.592
 But there's also like three,
 
 00:16:56.793 --> 00:16:58.514
 I know there's three or four gentlemen who
 
 00:16:58.533 --> 00:16:59.453
 fought at the Battle of Guilford
 
 00:16:59.474 --> 00:17:00.854
 Courthouse that are alive in eighteen
 
 00:17:00.894 --> 00:17:02.195
 sixty, eighteen sixty one.
 
 00:17:02.875 --> 00:17:04.816
 So you see this overlapping as well.
 
 00:17:05.855 --> 00:17:07.857
 You also have these connections that are
 
 00:17:07.877 --> 00:17:10.338
 amazing, like building on Dan's point,
 
 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:13.701
 a general from Maryland, Mordecai Guest,
 
 00:17:13.761 --> 00:17:16.443
 who understands what he fought for is
 
 00:17:17.285 --> 00:17:19.226
 exactly what he gave his son's name.
 
 00:17:19.526 --> 00:17:21.248
 He named him States Rights Guest,
 
 00:17:21.567 --> 00:17:23.589
 who will die at the Battle of Franklin
 
 00:17:23.869 --> 00:17:24.849
 in eighteen sixty four.
 
 00:17:24.891 --> 00:17:26.231
 So you can see what he was fighting
 
 00:17:26.291 --> 00:17:26.451
 for.
 
 00:17:27.172 --> 00:17:29.255
 uh the men who marched into um baltimore
 
 00:17:29.275 --> 00:17:31.357
 on april nineteenth eighteen sixty one are
 
 00:17:31.397 --> 00:17:32.900
 raised in the shadows of lexington and
 
 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:35.542
 concord here they are what seventy eighty
 
 00:17:35.583 --> 00:17:36.924
 six years later i'm not i don't do
 
 00:17:36.944 --> 00:17:39.387
 math i'm a historian so eighteen sixty one
 
 00:17:39.448 --> 00:17:42.030
 minus seventeen seventy five on the same
 
 00:17:42.070 --> 00:17:42.270
 day
 
 00:17:43.991 --> 00:17:53.796
 So yeah, they were raised in shadows.
 
 00:17:54.796 --> 00:17:56.376
 We also tend to think, I mean,
 
 00:17:56.396 --> 00:17:57.636
 the one thing I think that really hurts
 
 00:17:57.656 --> 00:17:59.157
 the American Revolution compared to the
 
 00:17:59.198 --> 00:18:00.157
 Civil War is that
 
 00:18:00.698 --> 00:18:02.580
 um first of the population isn't as
 
 00:18:02.641 --> 00:18:03.942
 literate so you don't have as many of
 
 00:18:03.981 --> 00:18:05.523
 the diaries and so forth so you can
 
 00:18:05.544 --> 00:18:07.606
 uh you got a piece in there secondly
 
 00:18:07.686 --> 00:18:09.528
 um we joke about this in the emergency
 
 00:18:09.670 --> 00:18:11.872
 for emerging revolutionary war series if
 
 00:18:11.912 --> 00:18:13.334
 we could go back in time what's one
 
 00:18:13.374 --> 00:18:14.736
 thing we would do well we'd bring a
 
 00:18:14.796 --> 00:18:16.818
 camera so we could take pictures because
 
 00:18:17.159 --> 00:18:19.000
 finding images and so forth but
 
 00:18:20.241 --> 00:18:21.803
 it's still such a destructive war.
 
 00:18:21.843 --> 00:18:21.963
 I mean,
 
 00:18:21.983 --> 00:18:24.184
 about one percent of the population in the
 
 00:18:24.265 --> 00:18:26.526
 North American colonies will succumb to
 
 00:18:26.646 --> 00:18:29.028
 death either by wounds or disease and so
 
 00:18:29.048 --> 00:18:29.647
 forth.
 
 00:18:29.667 --> 00:18:30.788
 Two percent in the Civil War.
 
 00:18:30.808 --> 00:18:32.109
 So, I mean, it's still bloody,
 
 00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:34.490
 still this upending thing,
 
 00:18:34.771 --> 00:18:35.951
 especially if you look at places like
 
 00:18:36.011 --> 00:18:37.272
 South Carolina and New Jersey,
 
 00:18:37.613 --> 00:18:39.074
 they're fighting a civil war within this
 
 00:18:39.114 --> 00:18:39.394
 war.
 
 00:18:39.454 --> 00:18:40.855
 And then you look at the western fringes
 
 00:18:41.895 --> 00:18:42.395
 and so forth.
 
 00:18:42.656 --> 00:18:43.777
 So, yes, it is,
 
 00:18:44.178 --> 00:18:45.298
 there's a lot of comparisons,
 
 00:18:45.317 --> 00:18:46.919
 there's overlap, but it is,
 
 00:18:49.121 --> 00:18:50.540
 I think one level of comparison of
 
 00:18:50.560 --> 00:18:52.982
 destruction, devastation, loss of life,
 
 00:18:53.542 --> 00:18:55.744
 for the numbers involved, it is very,
 
 00:18:55.765 --> 00:18:56.845
 very similar.
 
 00:18:56.884 --> 00:18:58.746
 But these guys like Robert E.
 
 00:18:58.786 --> 00:19:00.307
 Lee and other ones are raised under the
 
 00:19:00.326 --> 00:19:01.728
 shadow of the George Washingtons,
 
 00:19:01.748 --> 00:19:03.348
 the late George Terry Lee, his father.
 
 00:19:03.568 --> 00:19:05.450
 So it's a lot of emulation.
 
 00:19:06.050 --> 00:19:08.531
 Just technology is advancing quicker.
 
 00:19:09.532 --> 00:19:10.794
 But other than that,
 
 00:19:10.854 --> 00:19:12.153
 I think there's a lot of comparison.
 
 00:19:14.016 --> 00:19:14.596
 Well, thank you.
 
 00:19:14.615 --> 00:19:16.376
 Dan Davis and Phil Greenwald are from the
 
 00:19:16.396 --> 00:19:17.397
 Emerging Revolutionary War.
 
 00:19:27.757 --> 00:19:29.758
 We here in Massachusetts have these kind
 
 00:19:29.778 --> 00:19:31.817
 of big battles like Bunker Hill and
 
 00:19:31.877 --> 00:19:33.939
 Lexington have conquered and sent more men
 
 00:19:33.999 --> 00:19:37.019
 to the war than any other state.
 
 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:38.720
 But then much of the real fighting,
 
 00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:39.220
 as you mentioned,
 
 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:41.461
 is happening in the Carolinas and other
 
 00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:42.181
 places.
 
 00:19:43.582 --> 00:19:45.041
 How is it that that part of the
 
 00:19:45.061 --> 00:19:46.461
 war has been bust over?
 
 00:19:46.522 --> 00:19:47.843
 Is it just that we had,
 
 00:19:48.222 --> 00:19:50.683
 we put up a monument and, you know,
 
 00:20:00.594 --> 00:20:02.277
 I'll take the first crack.
 
 00:20:02.478 --> 00:20:05.222
 Bam has been filling my gaps.
 
 00:20:05.262 --> 00:20:07.446
 He's more versed in Southern theater than
 
 00:20:07.586 --> 00:20:07.767
 I am.
 
 00:20:09.173 --> 00:20:12.213
 it's it's a little more um hazy uh
 
 00:20:12.233 --> 00:20:14.214
 it is a little more of a uh
 
 00:20:14.255 --> 00:20:16.395
 these internal battles in the summer
 
 00:20:16.435 --> 00:20:19.896
 campaign besides cowpens or uh king's
 
 00:20:19.936 --> 00:20:21.478
 mountain or guilford where they're more
 
 00:20:21.778 --> 00:20:24.459
 cut and dry battles hanging there's so
 
 00:20:24.479 --> 00:20:26.159
 many small engagements in south carolina
 
 00:20:26.199 --> 00:20:29.881
 it's so um more of a um interwar
 
 00:20:30.601 --> 00:20:31.662
 kind of Civil War.
 
 00:20:31.982 --> 00:20:32.824
 So it resembles,
 
 00:20:32.943 --> 00:20:34.965
 reminds me of what you look at Missouri
 
 00:20:35.165 --> 00:20:37.489
 or eastern Tennessee in the Civil War,
 
 00:20:37.528 --> 00:20:39.632
 where you have smaller factions fighting
 
 00:20:39.672 --> 00:20:41.554
 against each other in smaller battles,
 
 00:20:41.653 --> 00:20:43.776
 which do take casualties.
 
 00:20:43.816 --> 00:20:46.179
 You also don't have these
 
 00:20:47.059 --> 00:20:48.701
 I guess the other part for me that
 
 00:20:48.961 --> 00:20:49.981
 overshadows it is that,
 
 00:20:51.122 --> 00:20:53.182
 how do you explain it in a concise
 
 00:20:53.242 --> 00:20:53.482
 line?
 
 00:20:53.502 --> 00:20:57.204
 You can follow Lexington Concord led the
 
 00:20:57.265 --> 00:20:57.945
 Bunker Hill,
 
 00:20:57.965 --> 00:20:59.526
 which led to the siege of Boston,
 
 00:20:59.546 --> 00:21:00.507
 which led to New York.
 
 00:21:00.906 --> 00:21:02.347
 And you can see the progression down with
 
 00:21:02.367 --> 00:21:02.887
 these armies.
 
 00:21:03.288 --> 00:21:04.128
 Well, in South Carolina,
 
 00:21:04.148 --> 00:21:05.088
 if you do the same map,
 
 00:21:05.108 --> 00:21:06.609
 you would be drawing in a circle as
 
 00:21:06.650 --> 00:21:07.570
 men go this way,
 
 00:21:07.590 --> 00:21:09.230
 because Charleston and that.
 
 00:21:09.270 --> 00:21:11.011
 And so it's harder.
 
 00:21:11.031 --> 00:21:12.012
 There's more space out.
 
 00:21:12.053 --> 00:21:13.253
 There's smaller engagements.
 
 00:21:13.733 --> 00:21:15.234
 There's different people coming and going
 
 00:21:15.255 --> 00:21:15.835
 with the militia.
 
 00:21:16.335 --> 00:21:16.596
 But yeah,
 
 00:21:16.615 --> 00:21:20.105
 it's kind of a famous New Jersey war
 
 00:21:20.144 --> 00:21:20.645
 within a war.
 
 00:21:24.614 --> 00:21:24.854
 Yeah,
 
 00:21:25.233 --> 00:21:26.474
 just to tip in to what Phil said,
 
 00:21:26.555 --> 00:21:28.036
 I think a lot of – I think
 
 00:21:28.056 --> 00:21:28.537
 the Civil War,
 
 00:21:28.576 --> 00:21:29.998
 because much of it takes place in the
 
 00:21:30.038 --> 00:21:30.377
 South,
 
 00:21:30.538 --> 00:21:33.579
 overshadows the American Revolution.
 
 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:35.821
 I mean obviously the war starts in South
 
 00:21:35.862 --> 00:21:36.942
 Carolina at Charleston.
 
 00:21:36.961 --> 00:21:39.463
 There's two attacks on Charleston during
 
 00:21:39.483 --> 00:21:40.625
 the American Revolution,
 
 00:21:40.644 --> 00:21:42.365
 but everybody remembers Fort Sumter.
 
 00:21:42.385 --> 00:21:44.067
 They don't necessarily remember Fort
 
 00:21:44.126 --> 00:21:44.507
 Sullivan,
 
 00:21:44.547 --> 00:21:46.929
 or we know it today as Fort Moultrie.
 
 00:21:46.969 --> 00:21:47.930
 The same in Virginia.
 
 00:21:48.349 --> 00:21:50.730
 And what I continue to find fascinating is
 
 00:21:51.071 --> 00:21:52.952
 you have throughout the course of the war
 
 00:21:52.992 --> 00:21:54.253
 in Virginia, the Civil War,
 
 00:21:54.834 --> 00:21:56.596
 You have the Union and Confederate armies,
 
 00:21:56.615 --> 00:22:00.898
 they're marching over the same ground that
 
 00:22:01.598 --> 00:22:04.280
 the British and George Washington,
 
 00:22:04.320 --> 00:22:05.461
 the Marquis de Lafayette are marching
 
 00:22:05.481 --> 00:22:05.821
 across.
 
 00:22:06.883 --> 00:22:07.844
 The Seven Days Battles,
 
 00:22:07.864 --> 00:22:10.925
 the men are traversing ground that Charles
 
 00:22:10.965 --> 00:22:12.446
 Cormos moved across.
 
 00:22:12.487 --> 00:22:14.489
 Lafayette moved over.
 
 00:22:15.068 --> 00:22:16.529
 Lafayette ends up marching,
 
 00:22:16.589 --> 00:22:18.152
 and Anthony Wayne for that matter,
 
 00:22:19.172 --> 00:22:22.094
 over what becomes the largest cavalry
 
 00:22:22.114 --> 00:22:22.734
 battle of the war.
 
 00:22:23.305 --> 00:22:24.275
 the ground at Brandy Sta
 
 00:22:26.031 --> 00:22:29.613
 So I think it's just there's more of
 
 00:22:29.633 --> 00:22:30.614
 the Civil War, I think,
 
 00:22:30.634 --> 00:22:32.574
 presence in the South because the Civil
 
 00:22:32.594 --> 00:22:33.654
 War takes place afterwards.
 
 00:22:33.674 --> 00:22:37.336
 It kind of overshadows what happens in the
 
 00:22:37.375 --> 00:22:38.276
 American Revolution.
 
 00:22:39.076 --> 00:22:40.777
 And I'll also add to that, too.
 
 00:22:41.577 --> 00:22:42.478
 Speaking of Lafayette,
 
 00:22:42.538 --> 00:22:44.019
 Lafayette camps at a place outside
 
 00:22:44.078 --> 00:22:45.878
 Richmond in the summer of seventeen eighty
 
 00:22:45.979 --> 00:22:47.000
 one called Malvern Hill.
 
 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:48.619
 Well, nobody remembers a campsite.
 
 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:49.681
 They remember the July first,
 
 00:22:49.721 --> 00:22:51.641
 eighteen sixty two battle of Malvern Hill
 
 00:22:51.861 --> 00:22:53.362
 that closed out the seven days battles.
 
 00:22:53.642 --> 00:22:55.063
 So there you kind of you play on
 
 00:22:55.083 --> 00:22:58.285
 to what people's memory and what is what
 
 00:22:58.664 --> 00:23:00.586
 stands out at a specific location.
 
 00:23:01.926 --> 00:23:03.387
 Of course, Thomas Cass,
 
 00:23:03.428 --> 00:23:05.648
 who was the first Irish Catholic elected
 
 00:23:05.669 --> 00:23:07.470
 to public office in Boston,
 
 00:23:07.910 --> 00:23:09.971
 is mortally wounded at Malvern Hill.
 
 00:23:10.011 --> 00:23:12.393
 So we remember that here.
 
 00:23:12.512 --> 00:23:12.613
 Now,
 
 00:23:12.653 --> 00:23:14.894
 there's a Liberty Trail in South Carolina,
 
 00:23:14.933 --> 00:23:16.935
 which is trying to kind of do what
 
 00:23:16.976 --> 00:23:19.257
 Phil was saying, connect these dots.
 
 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:20.681
 Yeah,
 
 00:23:20.721 --> 00:23:22.303
 the Liberty Trail is an effort that the
 
 00:23:22.442 --> 00:23:24.605
 American Battlefield Trust has undertaken
 
 00:23:24.625 --> 00:23:26.468
 with many of our local partners in South
 
 00:23:26.508 --> 00:23:26.989
 Carolina,
 
 00:23:27.028 --> 00:23:29.070
 specifically the folks at the South
 
 00:23:29.090 --> 00:23:30.833
 Carolina Battleground Preservation Trust
 
 00:23:31.354 --> 00:23:32.295
 over the course of the last,
 
 00:23:32.434 --> 00:23:32.796
 I would say,
 
 00:23:32.875 --> 00:23:36.079
 eight to nine years to preserve and
 
 00:23:36.140 --> 00:23:38.502
 interpret both on-site and digitally
 
 00:23:39.022 --> 00:23:42.464
 the Revolutionary War battles in South
 
 00:23:42.505 --> 00:23:43.105
 Carolina.
 
 00:23:43.244 --> 00:23:46.046
 And with the two fiftieth ongoing,
 
 00:23:46.266 --> 00:23:49.167
 it did not end this time last month,
 
 00:23:49.627 --> 00:23:51.749
 still has a ways to go until twenty
 
 00:23:51.769 --> 00:23:52.288
 thirty one.
 
 00:23:52.669 --> 00:23:54.230
 We have since at the trust started to
 
 00:23:54.309 --> 00:23:56.111
 expand and working and continuing to work
 
 00:23:56.131 --> 00:23:57.050
 with local partners,
 
 00:23:57.090 --> 00:23:59.412
 the Liberty Trail into places like North
 
 00:23:59.451 --> 00:24:01.993
 Carolina, into Virginia, into New Jersey.
 
 00:24:02.614 --> 00:24:04.714
 New York is coming up very soon with
 
 00:24:04.734 --> 00:24:06.096
 the two hundred fiftieth commemoration of
 
 00:24:06.115 --> 00:24:07.115
 the Battle of Long Island.
 
 00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:08.421
 at the end of August.
 
 00:24:08.461 --> 00:24:10.624
 So that is something that we're doing at
 
 00:24:10.663 --> 00:24:12.606
 the trust, both from, again,
 
 00:24:13.188 --> 00:24:14.710
 on the ground with on-ground
 
 00:24:14.730 --> 00:24:16.132
 interpretation and trails,
 
 00:24:16.152 --> 00:24:18.615
 but also digitally through our Liberty
 
 00:24:18.635 --> 00:24:19.997
 Trail app and through our Liberty Trail
 
 00:24:20.017 --> 00:24:20.357
 website.
 
 00:24:23.803 --> 00:24:24.083
 And yeah,
 
 00:24:24.103 --> 00:24:26.384
 that app is amazing because a lot of
 
 00:24:26.463 --> 00:24:28.723
 sites do not get the greatest cell phone
 
 00:24:28.763 --> 00:24:29.724
 service,
 
 00:24:29.744 --> 00:24:31.305
 which the historian is great because you'd
 
 00:24:31.345 --> 00:24:32.845
 love to be out in the battlefield.
 
 00:24:32.865 --> 00:24:34.705
 You can't be bothered because no one can
 
 00:24:34.746 --> 00:24:35.105
 reach you.
 
 00:24:35.226 --> 00:24:36.046
 But at the same time,
 
 00:24:36.066 --> 00:24:37.406
 if you're trying to get there and learn
 
 00:24:37.446 --> 00:24:37.826
 about it,
 
 00:24:38.946 --> 00:24:40.788
 you at least can have this downloaded and
 
 00:24:41.208 --> 00:24:42.428
 this idea and so forth.
 
 00:24:42.468 --> 00:24:44.608
 So, yeah, it's really amazing.
 
 00:24:45.909 --> 00:24:46.930
 It's cool because for me,
 
 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:48.530
 like when you get off the beaten path
 
 00:24:48.550 --> 00:24:49.932
 and you can kind of drive these back
 
 00:24:49.971 --> 00:24:51.813
 roads and so forth and kind of get
 
 00:24:52.573 --> 00:24:54.875
 lost back into history, which is, I think,
 
 00:24:55.015 --> 00:24:57.195
 a very good aspect of this Liberty Trail.
 
 00:24:57.935 --> 00:24:59.656
 And you can kind of put yourself in
 
 00:24:59.676 --> 00:25:02.138
 the mindset of some of those maybe
 
 00:25:02.179 --> 00:25:04.380
 childhood heroes like Francis Marion or so
 
 00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:04.660
 forth.
 
 00:25:04.681 --> 00:25:08.702
 Certainly,
 
 00:25:08.722 --> 00:25:10.364
 there are a lot of stories to tell.
 
 00:25:10.384 --> 00:25:11.765
 I have to say the American Battlefield
 
 00:25:11.805 --> 00:25:12.025
 Trust is
 
 00:25:22.107 --> 00:25:22.488
 and so on,
 
 00:25:22.508 --> 00:25:24.409
 but getting these stories so that people
 
 00:25:24.429 --> 00:25:26.510
 can visualize them really seems like a
 
 00:25:26.550 --> 00:25:27.810
 critical thing so that people can connect
 
 00:25:27.851 --> 00:25:32.054
 with this path.
 
 00:25:32.074 --> 00:25:32.374
 Correct.
 
 00:25:32.854 --> 00:25:34.295
 I think, yeah, humanizing these people.
 
 00:25:35.435 --> 00:25:36.336
 I mean,
 
 00:25:36.757 --> 00:25:38.978
 we were down in South Carolina a few
 
 00:25:38.998 --> 00:25:40.378
 years ago for an Emerging Revolutionary
 
 00:25:40.398 --> 00:25:40.919
 War trip,
 
 00:25:40.939 --> 00:25:43.340
 and the reason Francis Marion is not
 
 00:25:43.681 --> 00:25:45.761
 captured at the siege of Charleston is
 
 00:25:45.801 --> 00:25:47.282
 that he's such an introvert,
 
 00:25:47.323 --> 00:25:48.483
 he gets tired of a party,
 
 00:25:48.564 --> 00:25:50.424
 jumps out a window, and breaks his ankle.
 
 00:25:51.644 --> 00:25:54.705
 And you can relate that to college
 
 00:25:54.726 --> 00:25:55.547
 students if you wanted to,
 
 00:25:55.586 --> 00:25:56.866
 how many people try to sneak out a
 
 00:25:56.906 --> 00:25:59.607
 window at a party and everything.
 
 00:26:00.128 --> 00:26:00.548
 Or, I mean,
 
 00:26:01.009 --> 00:26:03.230
 Washington controlling his volcanic temper
 
 00:26:03.250 --> 00:26:04.809
 that he sometimes would have.
 
 00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:06.851
 You don't think of Washington,
 
 00:26:06.891 --> 00:26:08.311
 you see him on the quarter or on
 
 00:26:08.352 --> 00:26:10.291
 the dollar bill or the stoic guy.
 
 00:26:11.813 --> 00:26:13.913
 or Alexander Hamilton becomes smitten with
 
 00:26:14.835 --> 00:26:16.816
 the Schuyler sister there at Morristown,
 
 00:26:16.836 --> 00:26:18.958
 which is a national park today.
 
 00:26:19.038 --> 00:26:21.138
 So I think the more you can humanize
 
 00:26:21.538 --> 00:26:23.721
 these people, the stories out,
 
 00:26:24.020 --> 00:26:24.961
 the more they're relatable.
 
 00:26:25.842 --> 00:26:26.722
 People may not like
 
 00:26:27.462 --> 00:26:28.343
 history per se,
 
 00:26:28.383 --> 00:26:30.104
 but when I worked at Morristown,
 
 00:26:30.483 --> 00:26:31.704
 we had this debate about a lot of
 
 00:26:31.724 --> 00:26:33.286
 people would come running at Morristown.
 
 00:26:33.705 --> 00:26:35.166
 Well, they're not enjoying the history.
 
 00:26:35.507 --> 00:26:36.988
 Well, if they're jogging in the park,
 
 00:26:37.127 --> 00:26:38.667
 say they go home, get a shower,
 
 00:26:38.688 --> 00:26:40.368
 go to a picnic, and someone asks,
 
 00:26:40.409 --> 00:26:40.848
 what did you do?
 
 00:26:40.929 --> 00:26:41.009
 Oh,
 
 00:26:41.049 --> 00:26:42.670
 I ran at Morristown National Historical
 
 00:26:42.690 --> 00:26:42.930
 Park.
 
 00:26:43.290 --> 00:26:43.391
 Well,
 
 00:26:43.411 --> 00:26:45.511
 that person may be interested in coming so
 
 00:26:45.531 --> 00:26:46.751
 you can get their stories out.
 
 00:26:47.172 --> 00:26:48.232
 The Hamilton play,
 
 00:26:48.512 --> 00:26:50.534
 how many people started checking out Ron
 
 00:26:50.554 --> 00:26:53.434
 Chenault's book on Hamilton after the
 
 00:26:53.675 --> 00:26:54.115
 musical?
 
 00:26:54.675 --> 00:26:56.538
 So I think any way you can humanize
 
 00:26:56.557 --> 00:26:57.137
 these people,
 
 00:26:57.498 --> 00:26:58.778
 bring it into the different arts and
 
 00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:00.740
 culture, it connects them in.
 
 00:27:00.980 --> 00:27:01.701
 Liberty Trail,
 
 00:27:01.741 --> 00:27:03.542
 what American Battlefield Trust is doing,
 
 00:27:03.784 --> 00:27:05.505
 especially with our Generations events,
 
 00:27:05.545 --> 00:27:07.906
 getting grandparents and kids involved.
 
 00:27:08.627 --> 00:27:10.910
 The Park Service associating with Park
 
 00:27:10.950 --> 00:27:11.210
 Day,
 
 00:27:11.509 --> 00:27:12.790
 getting people to come out and see what's
 
 00:27:12.810 --> 00:27:13.652
 in your backyard.
 
 00:27:13.672 --> 00:27:16.634
 So I'll get off my soapbox now,
 
 00:27:16.674 --> 00:27:19.596
 but those are the humanizing stories that
 
 00:27:19.636 --> 00:27:21.778
 make it relevant, those connections.
 
 00:27:24.453 --> 00:27:26.138
 Yeah, we're talking with Dan Davis,
 
 00:27:26.219 --> 00:27:27.903
 and I'm hoping all two of our friends,
 
 00:27:27.923 --> 00:27:28.965
 the Deerbaugh victory,
 
 00:27:29.026 --> 00:27:30.269
 the Battle of Bunker Hill,
 
 00:27:30.369 --> 00:27:31.814
 and the Siege of Boston.
 
 00:27:46.909 --> 00:27:47.128
 Well,
 
 00:27:47.148 --> 00:27:49.269
 I guess the hardest part of Boston is
 
 00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:51.971
 avoiding all the pubs and breweries that
 
 00:27:52.011 --> 00:27:54.354
 the founding fathers might have been at.
 
 00:27:54.993 --> 00:27:58.435
 Now, jokes aside, our goal is, OK,
 
 00:27:58.516 --> 00:28:00.877
 how do you follow chronologically through
 
 00:28:02.298 --> 00:28:02.778
 the battle?
 
 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.661
 What are some sites that both they can
 
 00:28:06.701 --> 00:28:08.981
 find themselves and also not find?
 
 00:28:09.001 --> 00:28:10.844
 We didn't want to copy the great
 
 00:28:12.904 --> 00:28:16.126
 the freedom trail through Boston because
 
 00:28:16.186 --> 00:28:17.027
 people can access that.
 
 00:28:17.867 --> 00:28:19.128
 So we wanted to build on that,
 
 00:28:19.169 --> 00:28:22.230
 the rail fence, the three cranes tavern,
 
 00:28:22.611 --> 00:28:25.092
 put them in places that played a role
 
 00:28:25.412 --> 00:28:26.853
 and then put them in the mindset.
 
 00:28:26.893 --> 00:28:29.134
 So we wanted to make sure that Boston
 
 00:28:29.194 --> 00:28:31.236
 is great as a walkable city.
 
 00:28:31.256 --> 00:28:32.896
 It's probably one of the better walkable
 
 00:28:32.936 --> 00:28:34.357
 cities on the East Coast.
 
 00:28:37.765 --> 00:28:38.885
 And our goal is, OK,
 
 00:28:38.965 --> 00:28:42.666
 what are points that people can hit that
 
 00:28:42.686 --> 00:28:45.067
 gives them a great view of the battle,
 
 00:28:45.667 --> 00:28:48.449
 but also uncovers maybe like a Copse Hill,
 
 00:28:48.489 --> 00:28:50.569
 where now you have more buildings around
 
 00:28:50.609 --> 00:28:51.869
 it, or the rail fence.
 
 00:28:52.329 --> 00:28:53.851
 Turn around and look down the road,
 
 00:28:54.131 --> 00:28:56.451
 and you can see how the road kind
 
 00:28:56.471 --> 00:28:58.112
 of follows the contours of the ground.
 
 00:28:58.192 --> 00:29:00.113
 And so our goal is to paint that
 
 00:29:00.133 --> 00:29:00.472
 picture,
 
 00:29:00.492 --> 00:29:02.134
 especially at Bunker Hill and along the
 
 00:29:02.153 --> 00:29:04.335
 siege lines that aren't there anymore.
 
 00:29:05.654 --> 00:29:08.316
 but also not overwhelm the people because
 
 00:29:08.976 --> 00:29:09.776
 someone picking it up,
 
 00:29:10.115 --> 00:29:13.297
 we want to entice them into it.
 
 00:29:14.297 --> 00:29:16.376
 And that way they're energetic enough to
 
 00:29:16.457 --> 00:29:18.278
 learn more, to visit the visitor centers,
 
 00:29:18.317 --> 00:29:19.877
 the gift shops, buy the books,
 
 00:29:20.417 --> 00:29:21.878
 and invest themselves into it.
 
 00:29:21.919 --> 00:29:25.999
 So it's that balance of providing enough,
 
 00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:28.480
 but also just whetting the appetite.
 
 00:29:29.223 --> 00:29:29.463
 Yeah,
 
 00:29:29.544 --> 00:29:31.204
 and it goes back to sort of the
 
 00:29:31.224 --> 00:29:35.048
 motivation behind the series in that these
 
 00:29:35.107 --> 00:29:37.028
 books are supposed to be or they're meant
 
 00:29:37.068 --> 00:29:39.210
 to be not only the vehicle in,
 
 00:29:39.230 --> 00:29:40.211
 but they're also meant to be your
 
 00:29:40.250 --> 00:29:42.311
 battlefield buddy when you go out to these
 
 00:29:42.451 --> 00:29:43.053
 locations,
 
 00:29:43.093 --> 00:29:44.314
 when you walk from the north end of
 
 00:29:44.354 --> 00:29:47.375
 Boston to Charlestown and up Bunker Hill.
 
 00:29:47.435 --> 00:29:49.797
 These are to be sort of to provide
 
 00:29:49.817 --> 00:29:51.657
 enough meat in a narrative,
 
 00:29:51.998 --> 00:29:54.960
 but also to provide that guide when you're
 
 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:56.800
 actually out on the field.
 
 00:29:57.182 --> 00:29:57.541
 Great.
 
 00:29:58.128 --> 00:29:58.648
 And Dan,
 
 00:29:58.689 --> 00:30:00.410
 you've contributed an appendix to this
 
 00:30:00.490 --> 00:30:02.632
 book from Cambridge to Quebec about the
 
 00:30:03.031 --> 00:30:04.073
 invasion of Canada.
 
 00:30:04.452 --> 00:30:05.292
 Is there going to be a book in
 
 00:30:05.313 --> 00:30:07.375
 the series on the Canadian campaign or do
 
 00:30:07.394 --> 00:30:08.835
 you not want to encourage people to go
 
 00:30:08.855 --> 00:30:10.296
 to Montreal and Quebec?
 
 00:30:10.316 --> 00:30:11.656
 I don't know.
 
 00:30:11.777 --> 00:30:15.519
 I think that might be a couple of
 
 00:30:15.538 --> 00:30:15.859
 volumes.
 
 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:18.401
 The Canadian campaign is pretty big to
 
 00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.321
 cover from beginning to end,
 
 00:30:20.362 --> 00:30:22.943
 from Ticonderoga to Quebec and then back
 
 00:30:22.983 --> 00:30:23.243
 again.
 
 00:30:24.627 --> 00:30:26.529
 I'm trying to tell Dan that it should
 
 00:30:26.549 --> 00:30:28.590
 be the first bilingual emerging
 
 00:30:29.211 --> 00:30:30.452
 Revolutionary War series book.
 
 00:30:30.492 --> 00:30:32.173
 So I keep trying to tell him to
 
 00:30:32.193 --> 00:30:32.835
 learn French,
 
 00:30:32.914 --> 00:30:34.895
 but he keeps saying he has other projects
 
 00:30:34.935 --> 00:30:35.355
 before you.
 
 00:30:35.376 --> 00:30:36.057
 What about you?
 
 00:30:36.196 --> 00:30:37.698
 How's your French?
 
 00:30:37.718 --> 00:30:38.578
 I was afraid you were going to ask
 
 00:30:38.598 --> 00:30:39.118
 that question.
 
 00:30:39.339 --> 00:30:40.661
 That's why I keep pointing at Dan.
 
 00:30:40.681 --> 00:30:41.020
 But no.
 
 00:30:42.842 --> 00:30:43.522
 Yeah, it'd be cool.
 
 00:30:43.563 --> 00:30:43.923
 I mean,
 
 00:30:43.942 --> 00:30:46.424
 Dan said it'd be a multi-volume series
 
 00:30:46.644 --> 00:30:46.925
 book.
 
 00:30:47.730 --> 00:30:49.432
 It's one of those, first of all,
 
 00:30:49.451 --> 00:30:50.073
 I'd like to get,
 
 00:30:50.133 --> 00:30:51.713
 I've never been to Quebec and Monterrey
 
 00:30:51.794 --> 00:30:52.234
 also.
 
 00:30:52.674 --> 00:30:54.715
 A big component of this series is actually
 
 00:30:54.736 --> 00:30:55.777
 having walked the ground,
 
 00:30:55.817 --> 00:30:56.837
 talked to the people,
 
 00:30:57.398 --> 00:30:58.439
 immerse yourself into it,
 
 00:30:58.578 --> 00:31:00.020
 because we don't wanna just come in and
 
 00:31:00.060 --> 00:31:02.122
 be like, okay, here's a book and not,
 
 00:31:03.242 --> 00:31:04.483
 deal with the people who have invested
 
 00:31:04.503 --> 00:31:05.564
 their time or energy.
 
 00:31:05.703 --> 00:31:08.086
 A lot of these people have given up
 
 00:31:08.125 --> 00:31:09.086
 a lot of their blood, sweat,
 
 00:31:09.105 --> 00:31:11.468
 and toil of preserving these sites with
 
 00:31:11.508 --> 00:31:12.508
 not a lot of recognition.
 
 00:31:12.567 --> 00:31:14.348
 And so, yeah,
 
 00:31:14.368 --> 00:31:16.851
 we'd have to go international first to
 
 00:31:16.891 --> 00:31:17.711
 visit these sites,
 
 00:31:18.352 --> 00:31:19.833
 which I do have a passport,
 
 00:31:19.873 --> 00:31:20.633
 so I'm ready to go.
 
 00:31:20.673 --> 00:31:21.353
 It's just, of course,
 
 00:31:21.373 --> 00:31:23.255
 finding the time to do this.
 
 00:31:23.894 --> 00:31:25.836
 It's justice.
 
 00:31:26.175 --> 00:31:27.757
 What are some of the other folks that
 
 00:31:27.896 --> 00:31:29.178
 are forthcoming in this year?
 
 00:31:31.663 --> 00:31:36.106
 you have looked at or plan to look
 
 00:31:36.126 --> 00:31:37.008
 at so right now um it's safe to
 
 00:31:37.048 --> 00:31:38.568
 say because it's up on the sabbath's baby
 
 00:31:38.588 --> 00:31:40.089
 site now but the next one out is
 
 00:31:40.289 --> 00:31:41.451
 uh going to be on the new york
 
 00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:43.932
 campaign uh so a little detailed out of
 
 00:31:43.952 --> 00:31:47.555
 the august of we have some in the
 
 00:31:47.595 --> 00:31:50.196
 work for the uh the southern theater um
 
 00:31:50.457 --> 00:31:52.439
 as the war shifts there um having already
 
 00:31:52.479 --> 00:31:55.820
 covered monmouth and valley forge um we're
 
 00:31:55.861 --> 00:31:56.280
 in uh
 
 00:31:57.583 --> 00:31:59.644
 discussions with a Philadelphia campaign
 
 00:31:59.845 --> 00:32:01.887
 tour book that includes Brandywine and
 
 00:32:02.808 --> 00:32:04.510
 some of the sites around Philadelphia.
 
 00:32:04.932 --> 00:32:05.952
 So there's a few.
 
 00:32:06.012 --> 00:32:07.674
 And then we do head south.
 
 00:32:07.694 --> 00:32:11.240
 We're trying to look at doing, of course,
 
 00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.284
 Guilford, Kings Mountain, Cowpens.
 
 00:32:16.289 --> 00:32:17.471
 We're trying to figure out how to work
 
 00:32:17.531 --> 00:32:18.952
 the Race to the Dan, which is,
 
 00:32:20.013 --> 00:32:21.596
 besides Washington's retreat across New
 
 00:32:21.635 --> 00:32:21.976
 Jersey,
 
 00:32:22.056 --> 00:32:24.538
 probably the second most important event,
 
 00:32:25.940 --> 00:32:27.060
 one of the most important retreats in
 
 00:32:27.101 --> 00:32:29.222
 American history that saves the Southern
 
 00:32:29.262 --> 00:32:29.583
 Theater.
 
 00:32:30.663 --> 00:32:31.625
 But New York is next,
 
 00:32:31.684 --> 00:32:34.347
 and then following along the Philadelphia
 
 00:32:34.367 --> 00:32:37.330
 campaign and also the Saratoga campaign.
 
 00:32:38.692 --> 00:32:40.133
 The other thing we're running into as well
 
 00:32:40.153 --> 00:32:41.693
 is just trying to complement what is
 
 00:32:41.713 --> 00:32:43.214
 already out there by the publisher,
 
 00:32:43.974 --> 00:32:44.955
 because you don't want, of course,
 
 00:32:45.355 --> 00:32:45.875
 double dip.
 
 00:32:45.935 --> 00:32:47.257
 And the worst thing for a publisher is
 
 00:32:47.277 --> 00:32:49.397
 having a person decide two books.
 
 00:32:49.939 --> 00:32:50.838
 So our goal is, OK,
 
 00:32:50.878 --> 00:32:52.539
 how can we work with what else is
 
 00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:53.520
 in production?
 
 00:32:53.580 --> 00:32:56.663
 And so campaign guides seem to be pretty
 
 00:32:56.682 --> 00:32:58.243
 well for the Civil War series.
 
 00:32:58.624 --> 00:32:59.824
 So we're going to try to emulate that
 
 00:32:59.845 --> 00:33:03.165
 with a few with Saratoga and the
 
 00:33:03.205 --> 00:33:03.946
 Philadelphia campaign.
 
 00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:10.900
 great thanks dan anything to add to that
 
 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.280
 you mentioned king's mountain that you
 
 00:33:13.300 --> 00:33:15.500
 were working on yeah working on a book
 
 00:33:15.560 --> 00:33:18.021
 on king's mountain right now uh plan to
 
 00:33:18.041 --> 00:33:19.862
 have it delivered by christmas or new
 
 00:33:19.902 --> 00:33:22.602
 year's of twenty twenty twenty nine uh so
 
 00:33:22.622 --> 00:33:24.063
 it can be ready to go for the
 
 00:33:24.143 --> 00:33:26.423
 anniversary and just also one of the uh
 
 00:33:26.462 --> 00:33:27.782
 not so much just focusing on king's
 
 00:33:27.823 --> 00:33:30.203
 mountain but just tracking not only we
 
 00:33:30.223 --> 00:33:31.544
 talked we've been talking about people
 
 00:33:31.564 --> 00:33:33.544
 there are you know a number of people
 
 00:33:33.564 --> 00:33:35.325
 who fight in those early militia battles
 
 00:33:35.365 --> 00:33:36.785
 after the fall of charleston that end up
 
 00:33:37.025 --> 00:33:37.184
 at
 
 00:33:38.105 --> 00:33:40.287
 Kings Mountain, Isaac Shelby,
 
 00:33:41.307 --> 00:33:41.968
 Edward Lacey.
 
 00:33:43.128 --> 00:33:45.329
 But Kings Mountain just doesn't happen in
 
 00:33:45.371 --> 00:33:45.871
 a vacuum.
 
 00:33:45.911 --> 00:33:47.271
 It just doesn't happen all at once on
 
 00:33:47.311 --> 00:33:48.532
 October seventh, seventeen eighty.
 
 00:33:48.853 --> 00:33:50.433
 There's a build up to it in the
 
 00:33:50.473 --> 00:33:51.835
 Carolina backcountry.
 
 00:33:51.934 --> 00:33:53.776
 And I'm covering a lot of those actions
 
 00:33:54.277 --> 00:33:56.417
 as well, such as Williamson's plantation,
 
 00:33:56.778 --> 00:33:57.798
 Musgrove's Mill,
 
 00:33:57.838 --> 00:33:59.079
 the battle at Hanging Rock.
 
 00:34:00.221 --> 00:34:02.122
 And there's a there's a build up to
 
 00:34:02.301 --> 00:34:02.682
 sort of a
 
 00:34:03.604 --> 00:34:06.385
 a climax at Kings Mountain with the defeat
 
 00:34:06.425 --> 00:34:07.968
 of the Loyals forces there under Patrick
 
 00:34:08.068 --> 00:34:08.608
 Ferguson.
 
 00:34:10.230 --> 00:34:10.309
 Now,
 
 00:34:10.329 --> 00:34:11.431
 one of the things about the book on
 
 00:34:11.451 --> 00:34:12.032
 Bunker Hill,
 
 00:34:12.092 --> 00:34:13.693
 and I know it's true of the others,
 
 00:34:13.733 --> 00:34:16.096
 you have its eleven chapters.
 
 00:34:16.315 --> 00:34:18.697
 They're really only three or four on the
 
 00:34:18.737 --> 00:34:19.539
 battle itself.
 
 00:34:19.579 --> 00:34:21.360
 So you do have a lot of background
 
 00:34:21.561 --> 00:34:22.581
 and aftermath.
 
 00:34:22.641 --> 00:34:24.643
 Is that a standard for the series?
 
 00:34:26.106 --> 00:34:27.367
 I think so, to a certain degree.
 
 00:34:27.487 --> 00:34:29.447
 I think we get we get lost in
 
 00:34:30.108 --> 00:34:31.108
 going back to our discussion about the
 
 00:34:31.128 --> 00:34:32.269
 Civil War and the American Revolution.
 
 00:34:32.289 --> 00:34:35.231
 We get lost in the size as well
 
 00:34:35.251 --> 00:34:35.931
 as the duration,
 
 00:34:35.992 --> 00:34:37.532
 the size of the armies in the Civil
 
 00:34:37.552 --> 00:34:37.693
 War,
 
 00:34:37.713 --> 00:34:39.054
 as well as the duration of the battles
 
 00:34:39.094 --> 00:34:40.474
 going over the course,
 
 00:34:40.494 --> 00:34:42.175
 sometimes up to two weeks.
 
 00:34:44.704 --> 00:34:46.465
 Battles in the American Revolution,
 
 00:34:46.846 --> 00:34:48.427
 much smaller on scale,
 
 00:34:48.668 --> 00:34:51.590
 much smaller as far as forces engaged for
 
 00:34:51.630 --> 00:34:52.331
 the most part,
 
 00:34:53.052 --> 00:34:55.213
 but also they're not very long in
 
 00:34:55.295 --> 00:34:55.875
 duration.
 
 00:34:55.934 --> 00:34:57.856
 Bunker Hill is probably a couple of hours,
 
 00:34:57.896 --> 00:35:00.340
 two to three hours at the most.
 
 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:02.561
 Some of these other engagements are
 
 00:35:02.621 --> 00:35:06.465
 probably maybe thirty, forty-five minutes,
 
 00:35:06.505 --> 00:35:07.387
 maybe an hour.
 
 00:35:08.126 --> 00:35:11.829
 So some of these actions are they're much
 
 00:35:11.869 --> 00:35:12.250
 shorter.
 
 00:35:12.309 --> 00:35:14.731
 So there is a lot and there is
 
 00:35:14.811 --> 00:35:15.851
 a buildup to them.
 
 00:35:16.751 --> 00:35:18.572
 Some stuff does not happen in a vacuum.
 
 00:35:18.592 --> 00:35:19.574
 I think one of the you know,
 
 00:35:19.594 --> 00:35:21.815
 we've been talking about northern theater
 
 00:35:21.835 --> 00:35:22.615
 or southern theater.
 
 00:35:23.076 --> 00:35:24.876
 A lot of that happens because of the
 
 00:35:24.916 --> 00:35:26.498
 climate where these armies are.
 
 00:35:26.838 --> 00:35:29.440
 are campaigning in the civil war as well
 
 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:30.840
 as in the american revolution if you're
 
 00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:32.682
 fighting in the northern colonies and in
 
 00:35:32.722 --> 00:35:34.864
 many instances even in virginia you're
 
 00:35:34.884 --> 00:35:36.465
 going into winter quarters that doesn't
 
 00:35:36.485 --> 00:35:38.327
 happen necessarily in georgia south
 
 00:35:38.367 --> 00:35:41.028
 carolina north carolina you're not really
 
 00:35:41.048 --> 00:35:41.949
 going into winter quarters you're
 
 00:35:41.989 --> 00:35:43.570
 campaigning for the better part of the
 
 00:35:43.610 --> 00:35:46.293
 entire year you can be expecting active
 
 00:35:46.353 --> 00:35:46.994
 operations
 
 00:35:49.246 --> 00:35:51.887
 I think that plays a major role.
 
 00:35:51.927 --> 00:35:53.869
 I mean,
 
 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:56.250
 even just down to the basic simple facts,
 
 00:35:57.090 --> 00:35:58.451
 most Civil War soldiers are carrying,
 
 00:35:58.471 --> 00:35:58.590
 what,
 
 00:35:58.610 --> 00:36:00.592
 forty-five to sixty rounds of ammunition.
 
 00:36:01.112 --> 00:36:03.193
 Most regiments, I mean,
 
 00:36:03.213 --> 00:36:05.715
 when Washington takes over in the summer
 
 00:36:05.755 --> 00:36:07.155
 of seventeen seventy-five,
 
 00:36:07.596 --> 00:36:09.617
 there's an average of nine rounds per man
 
 00:36:09.856 --> 00:36:11.197
 in the siege lines of Boston.
 
 00:36:11.478 --> 00:36:11.918
 So, I mean,
 
 00:36:12.778 --> 00:36:14.460
 you can't have these extensive battles
 
 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:15.579
 because of that.
 
 00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:19.043
 our build up and it's also creating that
 
 00:36:19.063 --> 00:36:21.184
 world understanding you've got to paint
 
 00:36:21.204 --> 00:36:22.844
 the picture because there's a lack of
 
 00:36:22.905 --> 00:36:26.708
 images there's a lack of those type of
 
 00:36:26.827 --> 00:36:28.449
 things so you what you do is try
 
 00:36:28.469 --> 00:36:30.469
 to create okay what's the world these guys
 
 00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:33.172
 are coming from where do you start where
 
 00:36:33.192 --> 00:36:35.652
 do you end covering like the siege of
 
 00:36:35.693 --> 00:36:37.635
 Boston we knew that there's no way we
 
 00:36:37.655 --> 00:36:38.775
 were going to do a book just on
 
 00:36:38.815 --> 00:36:39.295
 the siege
 
 00:36:39.936 --> 00:36:41.918
 um so we wanted to incorporate that um
 
 00:36:42.137 --> 00:36:43.838
 tying it into where the new york campaign
 
 00:36:43.878 --> 00:36:45.920
 starts off as well so that way there's
 
 00:36:45.940 --> 00:36:47.641
 a connection so you can continue to read
 
 00:36:47.722 --> 00:36:50.543
 through the series um and then of course
 
 00:36:55.643 --> 00:36:57.063
 It's really a soft siege.
 
 00:36:57.123 --> 00:36:59.184
 There's really not a lot going on.
 
 00:37:00.905 --> 00:37:02.425
 I mean the armies are essentially just
 
 00:37:02.465 --> 00:37:06.065
 looking at one another from across the
 
 00:37:06.106 --> 00:37:06.586
 lines,
 
 00:37:06.786 --> 00:37:09.027
 really from Bunker Hill all the way up
 
 00:37:09.067 --> 00:37:10.788
 until when the British leave the following
 
 00:37:10.847 --> 00:37:11.128
 March.
 
 00:37:11.467 --> 00:37:12.608
 There's not a lot of fighting,
 
 00:37:13.168 --> 00:37:14.467
 and it's not like – and this goes
 
 00:37:14.507 --> 00:37:16.688
 back to the scale of American Revolution
 
 00:37:16.708 --> 00:37:17.108
 and Civil War.
 
 00:37:17.469 --> 00:37:18.730
 It's not like you could, you know,
 
 00:37:18.750 --> 00:37:19.831
 the siege of Vicksburg,
 
 00:37:19.891 --> 00:37:22.773
 where you have these ongoing operations
 
 00:37:22.813 --> 00:37:24.353
 through the summer of eighteen sixty
 
 00:37:24.393 --> 00:37:24.614
 three,
 
 00:37:24.835 --> 00:37:26.615
 then the actual siege and like frontal
 
 00:37:26.655 --> 00:37:27.936
 assaults to try to break through the
 
 00:37:27.956 --> 00:37:28.597
 Confederate lines.
 
 00:37:28.878 --> 00:37:31.278
 It's not like the siege of Petersburg in
 
 00:37:31.318 --> 00:37:33.400
 Virginia from eighteen sixty four to
 
 00:37:33.481 --> 00:37:34.322
 eighteen sixty five,
 
 00:37:34.342 --> 00:37:36.943
 where there's there's something constantly
 
 00:37:36.963 --> 00:37:38.784
 going on on either side of the James
 
 00:37:38.844 --> 00:37:39.105
 River,
 
 00:37:39.125 --> 00:37:40.686
 either on the Petersburg front or the
 
 00:37:40.726 --> 00:37:41.286
 Richmond front.
 
 00:37:41.766 --> 00:37:43.487
 There's really not a whole lot going on
 
 00:37:43.548 --> 00:37:44.108
 in Boston.
 
 00:37:45.289 --> 00:37:47.291
 And there's not a lot of primary core
 
 00:37:47.331 --> 00:37:48.992
 source material to build from.
 
 00:37:49.032 --> 00:37:49.291
 I mean,
 
 00:37:49.572 --> 00:37:50.932
 how many guys write letters about the
 
 00:37:50.972 --> 00:37:53.175
 Siege of Petersburg or the Vicksburg
 
 00:37:53.195 --> 00:37:53.594
 Siege?
 
 00:37:54.074 --> 00:37:55.916
 Also, too, is, I mean, from a,
 
 00:37:56.416 --> 00:37:57.577
 I hate to put this hat on,
 
 00:37:57.617 --> 00:37:59.137
 but where would you,
 
 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:01.199
 if you didn't include it in Bunker Hill,
 
 00:38:01.219 --> 00:38:02.420
 where would you sell the book?
 
 00:38:02.440 --> 00:38:04.280
 We have to look at the publisher's point
 
 00:38:04.300 --> 00:38:05.362
 of view if they're going to print it
 
 00:38:05.382 --> 00:38:05.802
 there.
 
 00:38:06.842 --> 00:38:08.623
 Where would you walk people that would not
 
 00:38:09.625 --> 00:38:11.385
 cross them back over to Bunker Hill?
 
 00:38:12.422 --> 00:38:15.403
 to the Bunker Hill campaign or Dorchester
 
 00:38:15.443 --> 00:38:15.864
 Heights.
 
 00:38:16.824 --> 00:38:18.164
 That was the other thing for me was
 
 00:38:18.485 --> 00:38:20.326
 I wanted to get Dorchester Heights and how
 
 00:38:20.365 --> 00:38:23.385
 important that is because it is talked
 
 00:38:23.425 --> 00:38:25.007
 about by Thomas Gage too.
 
 00:38:25.067 --> 00:38:27.708
 He's gonna attack both sides.
 
 00:38:28.447 --> 00:38:29.309
 And then, of course,
 
 00:38:29.449 --> 00:38:31.168
 the militia get a hold of that letter
 
 00:38:31.210 --> 00:38:33.251
 that tells about the plans and they
 
 00:38:33.291 --> 00:38:33.811
 preempt it.
 
 00:38:33.931 --> 00:38:35.291
 And so I really wanted to include how
 
 00:38:35.331 --> 00:38:38.092
 important Dorchester Heights was in not
 
 00:38:38.132 --> 00:38:40.393
 only in June of seventeen seventy five,
 
 00:38:40.434 --> 00:38:42.574
 but also in March of seventeen seventy
 
 00:38:42.635 --> 00:38:42.976
 six.
 
 00:38:43.396 --> 00:38:44.036
 So it was like, hey,
 
 00:38:44.076 --> 00:38:45.737
 how do I build both of those in?
 
 00:38:45.777 --> 00:38:46.016
 Well,
 
 00:38:46.097 --> 00:38:48.177
 now you've got to include the whole middle
 
 00:38:48.197 --> 00:38:50.458
 ground to get to that end story,
 
 00:38:50.478 --> 00:38:52.340
 which is getting people to Dorchester
 
 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.260
 Heights and how important that spot is,
 
 00:38:55.061 --> 00:38:56.483
 which gives George Washington is
 
 00:38:57.443 --> 00:39:00.043
 first major victory um seeing the british
 
 00:39:00.103 --> 00:39:02.923
 lead boston uh and so that was the
 
 00:39:02.963 --> 00:39:04.625
 other consider is that okay i wanted to
 
 00:39:04.644 --> 00:39:06.445
 include that but it was not enough to
 
 00:39:06.485 --> 00:39:08.885
 have a standalone thirty six thousand word
 
 00:39:09.346 --> 00:39:12.545
 volume on um without with staying at the
 
 00:39:12.565 --> 00:39:14.786
 fifty thousand foot level um as well i
 
 00:39:14.806 --> 00:39:15.827
 mean you could get really into the
 
 00:39:15.907 --> 00:39:18.168
 nitty-gritty of rufus putnam and how they
 
 00:39:18.208 --> 00:39:20.347
 built it and the mechanics and all that
 
 00:39:20.367 --> 00:39:22.809
 but that's not um what the series is
 
 00:39:22.829 --> 00:39:23.309
 designed for
 
 00:39:25.253 --> 00:39:26.775
 thank you we've been talking with uh dan
 
 00:39:26.795 --> 00:39:28.476
 davis and philip greenwald who are the
 
 00:39:28.576 --> 00:39:30.277
 authors of a deer bought victory the
 
 00:39:30.297 --> 00:39:32.458
 battle of bumper hill part of the emerging
 
 00:39:32.518 --> 00:39:34.179
 revolutionary war series thanks so much
 
 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:35.280
 for joining us it's been fun talking to
 
 00:39:35.300 --> 00:39:40.684
 you both absolutely thank you thank you i
 
 00:39:40.704 --> 00:39:43.186
 want to thank jonathan lane our producer
 
 00:39:43.206 --> 00:39:44.706
 the man behind the curtain and jonathan
 
 00:39:44.746 --> 00:39:46.487
 didn't want me to remind everyone that the
 
 00:39:46.989 --> 00:39:48.869
 massachusetts men who deployed in eighteen
 
 00:39:48.909 --> 00:39:50.610
 sixty one called themselves the midman
 
 00:40:00.009 --> 00:40:02.170
 April nineteenth again the anniversary of
 
 00:40:02.612 --> 00:40:05.454
 the Lexington and Concord which is why we
 
 00:40:05.474 --> 00:40:07.936
 have a annual holiday called Patriots Day
 
 00:40:08.056 --> 00:40:09.818
 it was initially on April nineteenth
 
 00:40:09.838 --> 00:40:13.181
 commemorating both those men who died in
 
 00:40:13.262 --> 00:40:15.543
 Baltimore as well as those who fought at
 
 00:40:15.583 --> 00:40:17.425
 Lexington and Concord so thanks so much
 
 00:40:17.445 --> 00:40:19.628
 for joining us and uh thank you to
 
 00:40:19.668 --> 00:40:21.489
 to our listeners every week we thank folks
 
 00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:25.221
 this month,
 
 00:40:25.260 --> 00:40:27.121
 some Revolution Two-Fifty swag.
 
 00:40:27.581 --> 00:40:28.822
 Send Jonathan an email,
 
 00:40:28.862 --> 00:40:31.184
 jlane at revolution two five oh dot org,
 
 00:40:31.684 --> 00:40:33.505
 and he will be happy to send you
 
 00:40:33.545 --> 00:40:34.284
 some of our stuff.
 
 00:40:35.005 --> 00:40:35.726
 And this week,
 
 00:40:35.746 --> 00:40:37.967
 I want to thank our friends in Minneapolis
 
 00:40:38.047 --> 00:40:40.047
 and Cleveland, Denver, Colorado,
 
 00:40:40.467 --> 00:40:42.548
 Providence and Little Compton in the great
 
 00:40:42.588 --> 00:40:45.510
 state of Rhode Island, Wayne, Red Bank,
 
 00:40:45.751 --> 00:40:47.751
 Asbury Park in Sparta, New Jersey,
 
 00:40:48.112 --> 00:40:50.373
 Houston, Helena, Montana, Henderson,
 
 00:40:50.413 --> 00:40:51.193
 North Carolina,
 
 00:40:51.512 --> 00:40:53.213
 here in Massachusetts and
 
 00:40:55.282 --> 00:40:57.887
 Florida Brasilia in Brazil Fredonia New
 
 00:40:57.907 --> 00:41:00.672
 York in Goose Creek South Carolina and to
 
 00:41:00.873 --> 00:41:02.777
 all folks between and beyond thanks for
 
 00:41:02.817 --> 00:41:04.561
 joining us now we will be piped out
 
 00:41:04.681 --> 00:41:05.603
 on the road to Boston