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Set The Standard
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Set The Standard
How Dads Are Saving Their Family From Work Addiction - Jon Vroman 287
Most high-performing men lead their business like a king but feel lost at home.
In this episode, Jon Vroman (Front Row Dads) and I unpack the silent cost of masculine burnout and what it really takes to lead your family with presence, clarity, and calm.
We dive into:
• Nervous system regulation for fatherhood
• Why kids don’t need a “perfect” dad—just a present one
• How men unknowingly sabotage intimacy by overworking
• Real masculine leadership (without burnout)
Whether you’re a dad, husband, or future father figure, this convo will flip your lens on what power looks like in a family.
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⏱ Timestamps
00:00 Masculine leadership starts at home
01:15 Why dads feel more pressure than ever
03:10 Jon’s burnout story: business wins, family disconnect
05:48 What children actually need from their father
07:24 Emotional safety over financial security
10:30 Nervous system = leadership foundation
12:40 Why “nice guys” fail at fatherhood
14:55 When work becomes your escape
18:12 How to repair after screwing up as a dad
21:34 Leading your relationship through conflict
25:08 Masculine embodiment and trauma
28:03 Front Row Dads mission
30:10 What Jon wishes more men knew
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Let's go. One thing I really relate to you, john, was I had this compliment from a couple of clients to me and they said to me I was just hanging around and they're like man, every single person that you know is incredible. And they're amazing Like I love being around you and after meeting Eric and the guys and the Front Row Dads community because I met them before I met you and then being at Seth's on the weekend, every single person that I met was so unique and so incredible and so amazing and so welcoming and I was like, wow, and every single person that was a front row dad and I was like, look at what John's created. I was like, oh my gosh, I had so much like admiration for you, like in the meantime of, just like look at what like you've created and and being able to connect all these people together. How does that, how does it make you?
Speaker 2:feel. Man Feels really great. Yeah, it feels really great. Um, I put so much value on relationships and if there's something I'm really proud of in this life, it's my peer group, my, my friends, my, my chosen and and given family. It's beautiful thing group, my friends, my chosen and given family. It's a beautiful thing to hear man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it shows. What I think it shows is your value, your sense of self-value, your commitment to vision and purpose, and I'm like, wow, like you can tell that that's like a reflection of you. So like, how did you get the know, the value and the purpose so many mistakes?
Speaker 2:so many errors. That's what I did. Yeah, man, just uh. The wrong path, you know that that hurt my feet. The wrong path that hurt my feet. And then, and then having maybe enough enough wise elders around me, maybe having enough luck in my life to have found another path, like I'll take credit for the choices that I've made to recalibrate or get my shit together. I'll pat myself on the back for that. I also won't take all the credit, because I recognize the elements of luck and serendipity and and chance that, um, I feel very fortunate in those ways. For whatever reason and why life turns out the way it does, I don't know. I don't claim to know, but I do have gratitude, you know, for those decisions that were made.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love that you're um, you say that you're a family man in business, not a businessman like with a family, right, but I'm like well within that with entrepreneurship, like for me, I've just been learning this like the last year of like dealing with, like the stress and how, like you're, it's like because I knew like years ago like oh yeah, your reflection of your business, but I didn't like feel it and like embody it and it's like, oh, here's the fire, these are the tests, these are the trials, you know all on the hero's journey, but for you it was like what was like the moment when you were like, oh shit, this entrepreneurship business thing is kicking my ass right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my wife, my mirror, my guide in many ways called me up, you could say, with a comment that came around the time that my boys were six and one and I had been pursuing a career as a speaker and as a coach and as an author, which is a very tough path for some to walk down. Some make it look really easy. I made it look really hard and, you know, was struggling financially for a number of years. It did finally hit, and when it hit and the wave came, I wanted to ride the wave, and so I found myself always in a busy season of saying yes, because I'm like, well, now that I make $5,000 a speech, I have to say yes, and now that I make 10,000 a speech, I have to say yes. Now I had just landed my biggest speech, my biggest paycheck. Arguably, things were going the best they'd ever had in my life.
Speaker 2:I had a charity that I was passionate about and I felt like I was doing good work in the world, and my wife said to me that she felt I was more of a moment maker. That was part of my brand, being a moment maker. I was more of a moment maker for the rest of the world than I was for our family. You know, I was kind of like semi, you know, famous outside of the home, but I wasn't really famous at home, you know.
Speaker 2:And that hit me in a big way where I want to please my wife. I want to be a great father. You know, I'd always said that I wanted to be a great dad. I always said that I wanted to be a great husband. But when you look at my calendar, my actions, my behaviors, they clearly indicated that business and charity and making a difference in the world, like showing my kids how to be passionate, that showing my kids how to be passionate, that was my priority. And there were so many areas that I had blind spots with and I was unaware of the damage that can be caused by going all in on one thing and leaving these others behind. So that was the moment, man, I got called up.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like the price of leadership as well, because I've been to a bunch of leadership trainings and for me what I learned was I'm like sometimes I'm like, oh, I did this thing and it was really good and I'm really happy with my leadership, and then someone would just roast me for the thing that I did and I'm like, oh yeah, but I thought that was good. How has that and the lessons that you've learned impacted how you lead men and facilitate and what are the skills?
Speaker 2:Well, the first one is just honesty and vulnerability and truth telling. Like I just want to be truthful with people about my life. It can be and it can also be totally freeing and liberating and it's a. It's something that if you practice, you know it does become easier to be more vulnerable, more open, and so whenever I tell stories about my challenges, I always have men reflect to me. They feel more connected to me.
Speaker 2:When I reveal my struggles with alcohol as an example throughout my life, people feel connected to me. Uh, shame that I have felt or self doubt, right, they connect with me more and they know that I was broke, you know, and had no money, and one year I didn't buy anything for my wife and my son for Christmas. Like I completely failed, miserably. They they love to hear that the story of man here's a dude who really really was struggling and was hurting, because we can all relate to elements of not enoughness, of unworthiness, and some may be more than others. It's a subjective thought, but I think we can all have that human experience, and I was just listening to two very smart people talk about AI and why it's such a powerful tool and yet now that we're using it so much there's an inauthenticity that comes with it. What we're drawn to is, in many ways, is the human error element.
Speaker 2:You know, the example that was used in this particular case was would you want to watch two computers play chess with each other? And it's like, not really. No, it'd be so shit. Even though it's perfect, you know, and predictable, you actually want the unpredictable elements, the human elements, the fallibility, to be part of that story. So like, what's better? The book that's written perfectly by AI or the book that you know somebody wrote through the trials and tribulations and the becoming of that person in their life? And so what I've learned is to embrace all elements of that. The more I was able to learn about my dark side, as an example, and my light side, the full range of who I could be, the more I pushed into those edges of either my greatness or my weaknesses, the more I did that for myself, the more I could hold in others and the more that I opened up about those edges, the more they opened up with me, the more human connection that I felt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing that I found with vulnerability as well is it's also an edge to speak about your power too, out of fear of getting shot down down. So I love that you say it's like yeah, you gotta own your greatness, because it's scary sometimes to be like I did all these amazing things.
Speaker 2:Yes, in case someone goes like you're a fraud, yes, yeah actually we have an ethos in front road dads, um, and part of that in that. In that ethos is written don't hide behind humility, oh, don't hide behind humility. Because. Oh, don't hide behind humility, because we can hide in lots of ways, and one of them is like I'm so humble and I'm not going to talk about my, my light or my brightness, and there is a way to do it with class and you know where it doesn't feel like you're grandiose and bragging and better than, but like when you're genuinely happy for yourself and your growth and you meet a person who has also experienced that in their life and can see it in another soul. It's expansive for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just, it creates like this magnetism yes, yeah. You know, rising tides lift all boats.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want, like that's how I think that a great brother, a great friend is one that like genuinely loves. When you win, you know, like they are so happy for you and they're also there and and and holding you in when you're failing miserably, like that is the best of friends, the ones that can hold both sides of that.
Speaker 1:I think that's something men crave for sure Big time. Like I have some friends I know that. You know, don't go any like, don't really go too many other places to tell their wins yeah, they'll get a little bit excited. Yeah, yeah, to tell me they're like yes, yes, corey, I made this amount of money today.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:I'm like let's go, yeah, and it gets like really exciting Very much so. It's like I can see talk about is is a little bit of leadership around men, because you have like hundreds of people come to your retreats. You've worked with like thousands of men, like online and in person. It's like what, what's? What do you know that other people may not know, which is like you know um skills and tools that helps people like helps facilitate those experiences and those transformations. And you know, for men like I just fascinated by it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, my my work. If I were to try to figure out what the formula is and I think I'm still trying to figure out what the formula is I know it works, but what I would point to is I desire to create environments, so let's call it a physical room. Like we have an event, and when I put that event together, I'm looking for, first of all, having the right people in the room, and to me, what I mean by the right people is men, and I'm trying to keep this very simple. So a lot of these things are nuanced, but people with wisdom who are also wise enough to know there's more to learn. That's my ideal man. Now, of course, family man with a business not businessman with a family has a lot of guys raise their hand and say that's me, that's who I want to be, that's the target. So we have some good qualifiers that put the right people in the room, with enough shared and similar values. That's part of the magic. But also differences. Like we have guys that are devout Christian and those who are agnostic or atheist in the room, and it's not a qualifier to be in the room, just like neither is you know where they are from or how many kids they have, or whatever it might be the shared common value. So you pick the right men or whatever it might be the shared common value. So you pick the right men and then in that room, my strategy has always been ask amazing questions, build bridges between men for them to answer those questions and get out of the way.
Speaker 2:So I do not take the position in the community as being the guru. I don't show up as the teacher. Hey, everybody's here to listen to John's wisdom and I just sit in the front of the room, you know, and bestow wisdom upon the teacher. Hey, everybody's here to listen to John's wisdom and I just sit in the front of the room, you know, and bestow wisdom upon the attendees. That is not how it goes. At a three-day event, I may speak for a total of an hour three days, but I will ask questions, put people into small groups, I will bring in other experts and interview them and share wisdom in various ways, but all of it comes back to the conversation that men can have. That's the goal. So that's the mission. Real leadership is having somebody to connect to themselves first and then connect to each other and, if I can do that in healthy ways and create a culture where men are listening and holding space for each other. That is winning for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like getting out of your own way and just showing up to serve. In regards to it's facilitating, that's what it is. It's really A thousand percent yeah, which I absolutely love. How did you bring that when you were at the point where it was like, how did you bring that when you're at the point where it was like I can't even afford Christmas presents For me? I'm like, how did you show up? How did you keep going at that stage, knowing that you had to move forward? Because it's like. I understand the fraud feeling. I know what it's like to have a lot of money, lose a lot of money. I know what it's like and it is like to have a lot of money lose a lot of money. It'd be like I know it's like, and it is like boggling, like. This is like some of the most you know uh stress, but the biggest lessons that you can learn in such a condensed period of time.
Speaker 2:My dad said to me one time when I was like really near rock bottom, if you will, he said. And then he said he said, son, there's nothing more. Uh, you know, uh motivating I, I think was his word to a man than opening up his cabinets and seeing no food and dude in many ways. I you know, I had two homes. One of them had a renter and they were squatting, so they were refusing to move out and not pay me rent. My home was being foreclosed on. I had a one-year-old. I had just spent the last like $3,000 in my checking account to mail brochures to try to land speaking gigs, right, and that's where I was. So I not only didn't have the energy to buy Christmas presents, I didn't have any money, and I think I literally had. So what happened was it was the night before Christmas. The actual story is, it was Christmas Eve and I was confessing to my wife that I had bought nothing for her and our one-year-old son for the next morning for Christmas morning.
Speaker 2:And then, based on her reaction which I don't even remember what it was, I just remember what I did I got out of bed with the most amount of anxiety that any man could hold. At like 1130 on Christmas Eve, I found a 24 hour Walgreens or CVS. I drove 30 minutes to this Walgreens or CVS broken, angry, frustrated at myself, right At whatever I was frustrated about, and I probably had $200 left on a credit card and I bought $200 worth of stuff from this convenience store and I kind of delivered these presents, probably with a lot of anger, like I was. What I wanted my wife to say in the moment was baby, I understand, you were working so hard, we don't need any presents, we just need your love. And instead I think what I received and again, I'm not I don't remember exactly, but it was probably like man I'm sad From her perspective. I'm sad. That's where we are, and I was like I already feel enough shame about myself, I don't need to stack your shame on top of it. And so I was unable to source it from within, but I was hoping that she would say the words to heal me. I was outsourcing my healing in that moment. Also, I was just ultimately not taking responsibility for myself completely and totally. So I went and I shopped for presents with resentment, with anger, and I probably delivered them with such. I share that because that's really where I was.
Speaker 2:And then what happened, and how I found my way out of that, was I just kept showing up to do the work and eventually I won an award. I was pursuing the college speaking market, to be specific, and I eventually hit it, figured it out, won college speaker of the year and within one year I was making six figures. The next year I was making multiple six figures and within three years I was at the top of the game. And within three years I was at the top of the game. And that's how you know. So how did I do it? I just kept showing up, I kept trying new things, I asked questions, I got mentors, I did all the things you already know and I didn't quit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's crazy. Do you think that a lot of men are in the position where they do try to outsource? You know their value and their shame and their love, like you did. It was like at that time you were outsourcing validation. Yes.
Speaker 2:I still do. I'm 49. I have a 15-year-old and a 10-year-old and I still do. On the way to this recording, I was talking to Jamie in the car about right now in my marriage, and I've been with my wife for nearly 18 years. Did you meet her, by the way, at the party? She was there. I didn't get to formally introduce her, but I remember seeing her.
Speaker 2:So I just said that there are ways where when I want something from Tatiana right now in this season of life, like this week, when I want something from her, I'm still training myself to then go figure out how to get that first from myself myself, to then go figure out how to get that first from myself. Now I'm not saying that we shouldn't want another human's physical touch Like we're wrong, like if we're like I desire that person to touch me and you're like, well, just source it from within, you go. Yes, I get the theory of that, but we also are humans who you know live in tribes and relationships are important. So, yes, have that, yes, want that desire, that, ask for that. You deserve that in your life. But step one for me is when I want Tatiana's attention. The question I now ask myself is what do I want from Tatiana? I want her love. I want her attention. Cool, is there a way that I can give that to myself on some level right now and I go there first? Is there a way that I can? I want Tatiana to validate me. How might I validate myself first? And that's a beautiful place to start Now, given a little more time.
Speaker 2:The other question that comes up is what wound has yet to be healed in my life that I still need her to tell me? I'm enough, because I didn't go back and figure out like where did that actually? Where did the break occur? Where did the wound first begin? Now, sometimes it's not always a wound that you point to, that you're like it was this specific moment in this specific person. But you're just a human being, right, and sometimes it's just these human tendencies that we have. But I think that's the way through for me now, right now, and what my continual practice is. But, just like anything in life, this isn't something you get one time. You heal it, you figure it out and then you never come back to it. This is the meditation, these are your daily pushups, this is brushing your teeth, this is any of the other metaphors that we can use of your daily practice to stay in alignment. Come back to how do you source that from within?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because without it what happens?
Speaker 2:Without sourcing from within.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like you're, you feel like yeah.
Speaker 2:You put a lot of pressure on the people around you to deliver to you the things that you are failing to deliver to yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was thinking about this literally today because I was just writing this morning and one thing that come up was it was like this whole piece of it is trying to like outsource your own fulfillment, but also being unaware of it when you're outsourcing it and then just like, for me, I come up along the line, especially in business. I'm like would it serve me better if I didn't do all this healing and understanding and learning where it comes from? Because then I would just sweep shit under the rug and, just you know, go down for sales like a you know a bull out of a gun, right and or I'm like or is it better to do this and keep pursuing it this way while I'm learning and understanding? But now that I've got the skill, I'm like I can't turn it off. I'm always analyzing. So I have this question and I'm like what's right Is ignorance for bliss.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is ignorance? Is bliss? A true statement? And the answer is yes, in many ways it is. That's why the innocence we try to protect in children, you know like, is it still? Is it wonderful to not know things? Sure, until life lets you know that you're entering a season where you may need to know this. And so what sometimes it is is mourning. The loss of our ignorance is bliss. Period of life, it's a grieving. That, yeah, it's grieving and that's okay. That's part of, like, hey, your evolution as a human means. Now the lights are on Once you see it, you can't unsee it Right. And we were joking the other night uh, that was actually months ago, not the other night, but months ago with a group of people about how personal growth has screwed up our life. And we're like we're going to write a book and we've already literally started a Google doc. It's not, I'm not even joking and and the the google doc is all these ways that now that the lights are turned on, we wish we could go back to. You know, I was blind.
Speaker 1:Now I see sunglasses now yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. There's a there is a responsibility that then, when you have that, once you see the suffering that you're causing, right how your actions affect other people, right that you have to feel it.
Speaker 1:That's it because I'm assuming, especially as a dad as well, like there's a lot because I work with a lot of guys who were dads. It's like they're real careful to, like you know, not project on their kids and there's a lot of parent guilt all the time. And it's just like you know, it's even more of a mirror reflection of like your kids and yourself, like it. Just that seems crazy. But then also, like I'm also obsessed with at the moment, I've been learning a lot into it's like sex and sexual desires and how they're also a reflection of your own personality as well. I think it's just crazy that you can just take like with personal growth. It's just in all of these areas it just can just shining you back in your face for sure yeah, and I think, like any, like most things, you can go too far.
Speaker 2:You can go all in on the personal growth path to the point to where it's hurt. It's hurting you and your loved ones. You can't have just a fun day. Every conversation has to be super deep. Yeah, you, you, you judge people tremendously because they didn't do the personal growth work. I love this phrase that yesterday's breakthrough is today's ego trip.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I love that so much. Where there is a righteousness and an arrogance that comes along with the growth, with the knowledge and the work that you've done, you can't join the tribe. There is a better than feeling and philosophy that can come with that, that spiritual bypassing.
Speaker 1:Alan Watts said something he was like when he was talking about the ego. He was like it's kind of like a game of cops and robbers. The cops are your consciousness and then the robbers are your ego. And the cops go into the first floor and they find the robbers there. Then the robbers go up to the next floor, then the cops go up to the next one, and then they find them, and then they go to the next one, the next one.
Speaker 1:And then the robbers get out on the house, then the cops get down the roof got you now where, like cycle, and for me one thing that I learned was just like this, this fix it problem. Like I would try to fix everyone else except myself and I'd try to fix. But like, oh, if I learn everything about sex and pleasure or whatever I'll, I'll do it through that. I'll learn everything about communication and I'll communicate. Learn nothing about the body. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like dude, there is something to be um, something to something to be learned from, from elders who've traveled down the road quite a bit. And you know when I, when you ask a young guy who has kids about like the rules for parenting, a lot of times there's a lot of rules, there's a lot of philosophy, a lot of opinion, a lot of do's and don'ts make sense. I've experienced that. I've been there right. When you talk to the older guys that are like in their 70s or 80s, that have kids and grandkids and they've seen lots of seasons, and you ask them for advice, do you know what they often say? Just love them. It's literally like you would think that after 80 years they would say I have 62 things I've accumulated over 80 years that you need to do in order to be a great dad Right, Pancake Saturday morning, Attend all their sports games. Never say this, Always say this. Like you would imagine they would just have curated an endless list of shit, but actually their list gets shorter. Much like a great book that the better it gets is like the more that you cut out All the way down to when.
Speaker 2:Why we love quotes. It's the best thing said in as few words as possible. We love that right. So if I would have had more time, I would have written the shorter letter concept, and I think that there's a lot of wisdom in that, in you know, the surrender experiment. Why do we love that? Because so much of it is about the letting go. It's what we don't do In the first part of our life. We put a lot of weight in what we do. I want to learn the strategy, the framework, the action, the morning routine, whatever the hacks are, the productivity, how much can I squeeze in? I notice with people in the second half of their life, a lot of it is what can I let go of? What can I stop doing? How do I say no? The wisdom of just like space, right, that is something really beautiful. So it's what we oftentimes don't say. It's the pause in between the notes.
Speaker 1:It's all of that that I'm trying to lean into more now, having less answers and more curiosity and questions yeah, how did that for you show up in like actually repairing, like going through repair phases and like healing and creating intimacy and connection like in your relationship? Yeah, because for you as like being a family man, I'm certain because I haven't heard much like stories from you on this, but I I know for sure that you would have some crazy stories, like with your wife.
Speaker 2:Endless, Can we all? Right, let's begin the three hour podcast of like things I've learned with my wife over the time.
Speaker 1:But is there like been a moment for you where, like you realize that you know, in terms of like, an ego dissolve, and I know like, continuously, it's like when you're in relationship it's a ceremony, right, it never ends. There's always something this week, today, this morning, blah, blah, blah. There's always this. But was there ever a moment for you where it was like you had to face off with, like you know, the atonement with the father, the ego, the depths, the belly of the whale, yeah, of like your own ego?
Speaker 2:um, in relationship where you've just been like, well, yeah, until like every single day. What was, what was the wound? Every single day? Well, I'll share with you, um, I'll share with you a story that I think captures what you're getting at and I'll talk about the wound that comes along with it. So the story is that tatiana and I, years ago, were walking a beach in Florida and I had something that I wanted to talk to her about. I don't even remember what it was, but it was like felt heavier, felt bigger, and I said hey, can we take a walk on the beach?
Speaker 2:As we start walking, I, using all my communication skills, my coaching, you know this righteousness that comes with like I read the books, I know how to say this. I could teach this stuff. I did all the right things, I felt, to set the conversation up by telling her hey, can I get your undivided attention? I have something big I want to share with you. Does that feel good to you? Can I like? Is it okay if I share? Like I did all the things I thought you're supposed to do to tee up a conversation. She said, yes, start walking, talking. I start opening my heart, vulnerably opening my heart. She sees a shell on the beach and she, like in the middle of my vulnerable share, she goes, hold on one minute and bends down to pick up the shell. She goes. Isn't this so beautiful?
Speaker 1:does that mean I've been so fucking pissed off?
Speaker 2:And I feel so interrupted. This is a big, this is the ongoing wound in our relationship is I get interrupted and I get triggered Right, which is a not being heard, not being seen, not being valued wound.
Speaker 1:From as a guy right, it's like well you'd assume that's a lack of presence.
Speaker 2:That's it, yeah, yeah, lack of respect. Yeah, for what I'm saying? Reverence, you don't care about heart, my words, right, you're the shell in in the most simple form. The shell is more important than me. Yeah, like, I'm like you.
Speaker 1:If that was me, I'd be like, yeah, it's happened to me. On deposit. I'm like, well, you don't give a fuck about me yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:You don't. That's that's it. And that you can trace that wound back of, like, who else didn't give a fuck about you and why? Like, that's the big one, right. And I say to her again, trying to do all the things I've learned, reveal myself, tell her my truth, be honest. Hey, that really hurt that you bent down and pick up that shell. I don't feel seen or heard and I'm like I again check the boxes that I'm doing the right thing that's a theme, by the way. I'm doing the right thing. That's a big one in my life, right, that's how I got love as a kid. Do the right thing, okay. So I say this to her this really hurts. Would you please give me your undivided attention. I'll give you a million dollars if you guess what she does next.
Speaker 1:She said yes firstly, and then she looked at another show, and then she looked at another show.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're a brilliant man, you should have a podcast. Yes, so, yeah. So a minute later she sees another show and she picks it up and I go from like the first one, I'm triggered at a level three or four. The second one, I'm triggered at a level seven out of ten and I'm like I can feel my anger boiling, but I hold it, I suppress my anger, I do it one more time.
Speaker 1:So I tell her, I'm like hey, you know I'm probably more animated.
Speaker 2:Hey, this tatiana, this really hurts. Like I'm trying to tell you what's going on, I've and I'm trying to conf like I don't, like trying to tell her I don't feel seen, I'm so sorry, babe. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1:Okay, continue on dude, if that that is like for me, oh my god. It's like I would be questioning myself like am I being in control?
Speaker 2:that's right now well, that's what happens. You're exactly right, man. Then I start questioning myself am I a control like? I'm a manipulative? I'm, that's exactly because I want her to listen. That's exactly right, I feel. So I start pointing the finger to myself, start feeling shame, start like okay like is this because I can't respond?
Speaker 1:then this is my fault a third time.
Speaker 2:She does it, oh god, and I I don't remember what I said, but it was probably like what the fuck you know like, and I left her on the beach. I literally turn around, I walk away, I leave her on the beach, I go back to the house. Luckily, I had a coaching call with my coach, who I brought this to immediately, and I just knew, I knew when I brought this story, I was certain, I was like here's what I did, and I said this I did exactly what you told me. I did exactly what the book said. I asked for what I wanted. I revealed myself, I was truthful, I did the whole thing.
Speaker 2:I, like she wasn't listening to me blah, blah, blah, blah. Right, he said John, I hear you, and I also want to let you know that, while you were putting so much weight in your world of words, you said the right thing. Right, you asked for the right thing. You completely failed to miss that she was communicating to you that she was not available for this conversation with her body, for this conversation with her body, with her actions. So you were totally attuned to your own words and your perfect coaching and your perfect delivery and all the things that you think matter most. And you failed to read your wife's energy, because what you can master is you would have said, hey, can you listen to me? And she would have said, yes, but you would have known by her body, by her vibrations, her frequency, her, her lack of presence, that she was not able to be there for you in that moment. And it's still coming from like a need for approval.
Speaker 1:It was still that intention.
Speaker 2:I need her to hear me, I need her to listen to me, I need her to respect me. Why, where am I not able to source that from within?
Speaker 1:It's so crazy. I had a conversation similar to this. I was at Barton Springs and I was talking to an ex-girl that I dated for a little while. We just saw each other caught up on a few dates and she got a new boyfriend and they're amazing. And we were chatting and she's like, oh hey, how's dating now? And it's been phenomenal.
Speaker 1:But I didn't want to say because in Australia we have this thing it's like, if you're dating someone or seeing someone, like being truthful and honest to other people around how you're dating other people. They don't want to hurt other people's feelings because you know someone who knows someone who has very small town syndrome. So it's like telling someone's truth yeah, I'm dating. Like I'm talking to two people right now and seeing them, whatever it is, and being okay with that's like not a thing, even saying I'm like yeah, and what was very funny was I was. I was like, oh shit.
Speaker 1:So I found myself get activated and, as she was saying, I was like well, it's actually been really good and this has been happening and being 32 years old and emotionally intelligent is really working out for me. But at the same time, because I felt so guilty, how my energy come across was quite timid, because I'm like I still would, like, didn't want to offend, but I was like, oh, I need to like get my body right now. But I couldn't. And I was talking to the two girls there. One heard me but she was just reading my body and she was like, oh, so that sounds like really bad. And blah, blah. I'm like no, no, no, no, it was, it's been really good like you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's been great. And then her friend had to like correct what she was saying to her, because I was like, oh she's, and in my head I'm like, shit, she's reading my body language right now. That's right.
Speaker 1:She's not listening to anything that I'm saying. And one thing that I think about for this in regards to men's work and the importance of it and the future of it, is even with these conversations. Do you think it is more important to have that conversation and take it to the men and do it in the men's group so that you don't have to as much with your partner?
Speaker 2:I think there's okay, I subscribe to. On the opposite side of a truth is another truth. So it's a yes. And in nearly every situation for me, like, is it good for you to take stuff to your wife and talk with her and process with her? I'm sure there are situations where that's very, very healthy to do it, even before you take it to your men, I also think that largely, and probably more so, if I was to weigh it and have a percentage to it you should take it to your men's group. You should take it to your dudes, to your brothers, process it there and then bring a processed version of you back to your spouse. I do subscribe or partner or girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever it is. I do subscribe to not turning your partner into your therapist entirely. I think there's a lot of wisdom to that right. There is a lot of wisdom to not bringing a ungrounded man to your partner. Does that affect your desirability for one another and and your? Does that affect your sex life?
Speaker 1:and yes, what does that look like with the men that you've worked with in common situations? I want to paint a picture for men like in this situation, like what are the symptoms? What does it look like for them when they're too caught in their therapist as man thing like I know a lot of guys and I used to do this as well be like I want my girlfriend to go to the gym. So I'll try to say and hustle, like, hustle, these subtle ways of communicating and every time it gets throws back in their face like what do you see?
Speaker 2:well in that. In that particular example, how might they process that with their brothers instead of their now?
Speaker 1:it's like well, what do you actually see? Like, what's the? What are the things that you see men do where they just fuck that up? You know regularly, like when they, when they're in the groups and in the settings and the conversations that they're having, where they're like oh man, this is, this is what it looks like, and when they see that it goes oh, I'm being a therapist right.
Speaker 2:Well, what comes to mind is there's definitely a coaching element, by the way, of men trying to change their partners versus trying to change themselves. Right, there's that piece, and even I'll give you an example. We were at a Front Row Dads event. There were 50 dudes basically in a circle and one of the guys was sharing and the spirit of his share was essentially how do I get my wife to blank Insert anything, right? How do I get my wife to no-transcript? How do you get your wife to go to the gym? Wrong question In our community. That's not the question we're trying to answer, right? The question is why do you need her to go to the gym? Why do you feel the need to control that, right? What do you feel is lacking in your life? And in many ways so, it is the man being able to hold up a mirror, look at his own stuff, right, and then ask what can he be fully responsible for? You cannot control your spouse. You cannot get them to do anything.
Speaker 2:Now, are we able to influence? Of course we are. We are influential creatures. We have energy. You're the thermostat of the room, like. There's a lot of evidence to that, right, you clearly can impact the dynamics of a room or a person, for sure, and so it's not the argument. But we're not trying to get you to change the person, to bend to your will. Now, to be how to communicate in such a way to be really clear with your partner, how to ask questions that aren't manipulative and like. That's the part that feels icky. You know something, they're trying to get you to do something, and you can sense it and smell it, and it feels manipulative that I hear a lot from partners when my, when my spouse is not being fully truthful with me, but I can tell they're trying to get me to do something. Nobody wants to feel controlled, manipulated and influenced in a tricky way. We don't like it in marketing, we don't like it in our relationships. Yeah, so what do we?
Speaker 1:do about that?
Speaker 2:I think that the first thing you do is you bring awareness to it, like we're doing right now. I'll give you a great example of how manipulative I can be. You ready?
Speaker 1:Let's go. I said but just on this as well, before you pick up some context like I found there was a lot of traits like that for myself and I had to let them go because I would bash myself. On the other end, when I found that I had some traits which was me trying to influence, yeah, even though it come from love yeah, it was like that's right.
Speaker 2:Well, that's where it's coming from. A lot, yeah, when you really really get down to man, the reason we're doing a lot of things is to feel more love, to feel more connected by itself. Feeling powerful and loved and connected are not bad things. Just how we go about them clearly can be very different. I'll give you an example of an unhealthy way that I, tatiana, has been time, so I'm super on time, and she doesn't have a watch or a clock or know what time is right. So this has been a rub for us in our relationship. Now I say that lovingly and jokingly, right, and she's gotten a lot better with it, so I want to give her praise too. Over time, she's valued it more and more in support of me, really by her choice, which I appreciate.
Speaker 2:There's this one moment when I was sitting with her on our couch in our living room and I said hey, babe, would you give me a back massage Right Asking for what I want? Physical touch is a need of mine. I was asking for what I want and she said, absolutely. And this is where our dance begins, this is our trauma dance. This is how we do it, right? She goes I'm just going to go walk the dog. This is a wound for me too, because the dog always feels like a priority over me and she makes time for the dog but not me. And so I said, okay, I'm starting to feel activated already. I go what time will you massage? Because I'm trying to be very clear and she goes I'll be back in 20 minutes, at nine o'clock. I go okay, so nine o'clock you're gonna give me a massage. Now I know in this moment she's not gonna be back on time. I'm already doing it.
Speaker 1:I meant now when I said massage.
Speaker 2:So she goes and walks the dog and guess what? She's not back on time, and at 9.02,. I'm like, see, she doesn't care about me, she doesn't love me, she doesn't respect me, she cares about the dog more I get into my story. So I go, I'm going to go to the bedroom right now and I'm going to turn off the lights and go to bed so that when she this is how manipulative I was being in the moment Now I wasn't even aware I was doing this to. When I look back on it, I'm like, holy shit, I did that. I was like I'm going to go to the bedroom because I'm upset, I'm a little boy who's hurt, right, and I'm going to turn off the lights. When she comes back she won't be able to rub my back and then maybe she'll feel bad.
Speaker 2:And if she feels bad now, by the way, I want her to feel bad because I want her to then change her behavior. Give me what I want and our we're going to be happier. My skin's getting itchy, dude, I'm getting itch, I'm getting hot itching. It gets worse. So so I can actually hear her come in the door and I quickly shut off the light and then I pretend, cory, that I am sleeping. I pretend that I'm sleeping when she comes in, but then guess what I do? I'm. She comes in and hey, baby, do you want me to rub your back now? Then I get angry at her, cause I'm like, and I tell her now you woke me up, and now I'm angry at you, but I'm really just hurt.
Speaker 2:The point is like, now I can see I'm just a little boy who's hurt, who wanted love, who wanted respect, who wanted his partner to like put him in the priority position and like it's all. It's all it was, it was driving this manipulative behavior, dude. I get out of bed and I go into the bathroom, corey, and I say to her I go, tatiana, I have to tell you what I just did. I'm going to out myself and I'm actually I go.
Speaker 2:I went to the bedroom and I purposefully went to bed. I was trying to hurt your feelings. I acted like I was angry when you came in. I did all that and I'm really sorry. But I'm aware now that when, in moments like that, giving you an example in my own life when I can bring that to my men in my group and I can work it out and they can actually these are men with high EQs, right why do you do that? What is the like there can actually act, as you know, a place for me to play this out and and process it? I'm doing less of those things now because I'm outing myself to my, to my group in many ways and there and I and so anyway, that's what I mean by going to your guys, processing stuff and then changing your dynamics I was processing.
Speaker 1:As you're talking, bro, I'm like I have so much shame in my body. Right now I have a similar story, except I lock my ex out the room. I was like, how dare you do this? Yeah and then she broke the door handle and then we all felt, yeah, you just go.
Speaker 2:Chaos after that totally, you know what I mean totally.
Speaker 1:I was just like oh yes, I couldn't relate to that anymore. It's like during that I was like but so now that you understand that, like, like what, what would you do differently?
Speaker 2:yeah in that situation well, because, because I have awareness and and even like this is therapeutic right, like you said at the beginning when we were setting intentions to do this show, it's like may this conversation land for somebody, whoever's listening, and might it be medicine for them. Behaving in ways that do hurt people, that are destructive, that are unhealthy ways and all this is subjective, but I feel it and this is an inner knowing for me, that is not healthy. That is not a way I want to model relationship for my children. That is manipulative to the point to where she feels crazy. I feel crazy. We bring that crazy energy in front of our children.
Speaker 1:I hope that in me revealing myself here to you today, that guys will be able to see themselves more, talk about it more openly, have some truthful dialogue and then behave differently in the future one awesome way of framing it, because sometimes, realizing that yourself like for me when I was going through an understanding that that's what I was doing I'm like this is an unbearable weight to bear because it's so ego crushing and it's like a lot of guys don't want to do that work, especially when they're starting off, because you stare that shit in the face. Yeah, it's like I hate myself. You know what I mean. Right, like you really dislike. You're like well, I don't know who I am. And one part of me is like well, changing this is almost impossible. And then two is like, if I do change that, I'm going to be so different. Yeah, and there's an unknown there which is also super scary, totally so like I'm really interested, is like, if that situation happens now, like, like what?
Speaker 2:would you do if it come up and she's like, oh, can I have a massage? Yeah, well, and if I ask for it and, yeah, part of it is, can I self-source, like, john, what is it that you want you? You want to massage? Yeah, can I go? Like, can I really like I go? I can hire somebody to do a massage if that's really really what I want. Right, that plays to their strengths. And not put that ownership on, not give that to my wife that she has to do that for me.
Speaker 2:I literally have a back scratcher. Sometimes all I have is like I want my back scratched. It's amazing how I can literally scratch my own back and feel okay, no-transcript, normally have gone and tried to like grab her and she would have felt then a little bit controlled and like she was no longer free, and instead what I did is I went and I sat on this couch and I just put my hand on my heart and I remember like closing my eyes, taking a deep breath, and I'm like I got you, john. Oh, you wanted to be like tended to. I got you.
Speaker 2:And I know that what I've loved in the men's work is parts work. There's a part of me. What version of that? Is it my 12-year-old? Is it my 15 year old? Is it my 15 year old? Is it my 22 year old? And I have all these parts of me and I'm like I can tend to that part of me in a specific way where I really held myself in that space, so like when you ask the question, how would I behave differently? One is, I wouldn't give her the responsibility to meet my need at such a high level. I would just grab the back scratcher and scratch my own back. It's that simple.
Speaker 1:And I think the distinguishing of being like cause that takes the responsibility out of it. You're like oh, it's not me now and this adult body that actually needs this. This is like 12 year old me or like six year old me that every time I was sick, my mom would massage me to make me feel better, Cause I was like feeling bad or whatever. It is.
Speaker 1:One thing that I've been playing with recently and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, and it's been really working for me in men's work is, instead of even asking for what I want, I communicate, I know what I want and I just communicate that, but I never actually ask for it. And then for me it's like if it comes to me without asking anything, out of a feeling of like a partner or a date just wanting to give, then I will receive. So I was like oh, one thing I want to know about me. I love neck scratches, I love hugs, I love getting massaged, I love just being touched like everywhere all the time, Like that's a turn on for me and I really like it. Just letting you know and that's it, Don't say anything.
Speaker 1:And then next minute I'm getting touched everywhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well what I love about that. I think that's so great for you, man. I really think there's a lot of wisdom in that. And the reason I think there's wisdom is that you, you, you are inviting it in. It is an ask. It's just not phrased that way. And the reason it's an ask is you're saying I would, I love this, I'm open to it. Right, there is a request to the universe, like saying I'm open to this, I'm free. That's a beautiful way.
Speaker 2:So we don't need to get wrapped in the words. I love knowing that words are just sounds we make with our mouths. We're literally like two apes sitting across from each other, going, trying to make sense of life right, using tongues. Yeah, that's all we're doing. So a lot of weight put on words, like when somebody says what's a question, what's an ask. We all have our own frame of that, our own blueprint, our own paradigm.
Speaker 2:The energy by which you did is you opened to something and you did it without attachment. So that's the frequency, that's the energy, and if men can learn how to do that, to open to something occurring but not be attached to it, like I don't need you to behave a certain way for me to be okay, because that's where controlling comes in. I need you to behave a certain way so that I feel okay. I need you to say this I need you to do this. I need you to stop doing this, all so that I feel okay. Our core, primal need of wanting to be safe. I need you to come home on time. I need you to rub my back. I need you to do this. I need you to do that so that I feel safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Instead of a. This is what I want. This is what I really like. This makes me happy.
Speaker 2:If not, all good. Yeah, and I'm okay without it too. Yeah, I'm still okay.
Speaker 1:That's the part that's crazy, because I had this huge realization for that to to come like into my psyche and land in my body. And when it happened and I started practicing and I was like oh, oh, my goodness, and every day and every person I've spoken to and any sort of intimacy that I've had with someone has just been so effortless and seamless and I was just like took a moment to be like 22 year old Corey, who wanted all the attention from the women. Bro, like you're good now, like this is like cause.
Speaker 2:Once you've done this, it's you know it can't be undone, that's so attractive for, I think, for a a healthy feminine to find what you're describing right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's, it's amazing. But now what I'm trying to do is like okay, now how do I take this skill and do it with business, money, success and opportunities? Yeah, do you have any wisdom on that?
Speaker 2:well, I think that if you're, if you're ultimately, if you're talking frequency or energy, which I'm very attracted to in this season of life, you're asking for what you want, you're inviting in the possibility, but you're talking frequency or energy, which I'm very attracted to in this season of life, you're asking for what you want, you're inviting in the possibility, but you're not attached to it, like if you invite in a scaled business, right, and you're open to the possibilities of how that might unfold, and you're approaching with genuine curiosity and you're choosing to do the dance in different ways. I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, the game is do the best you can with what you have in any given moment and find gratitude and joy in the outcome of that. I have a question that's as simple as it gets.
Speaker 1:This is one question I lay in and resonate with that so much, and this question is just like burning my soul because I feel this had like clients ask me this question. I've asked myself this question and like I haven't really landed on an answer that I'm a hundred percent, like like really solid on. And it's okay. I want success, I have ambition, I desire success, I desire, you know, impact, influence, all those things, but I know that I have to detach. Do I actually have to detach from that in order to get it in a healthy way? And then does my detachment from success and needing it also take away my drive, because I'm also attached to my drive. I don't want to get rid of my drive for that because that's something that I want. But if I want it, I don't have to let go of it. I just get in this mind fuckery about it and I haven't. Well, what is success? That's a great question. I think it's dependent.
Speaker 2:Everyone has their own idea of success I mean, that's where it ultimately begins with that. It begins with defining well, what is it, what is the life that you're interested in living? Because there is something really beautiful about the being energy and there's something beautiful about the doing energy. You know that old story about the fishermen, you know, in the islands. Have you ever heard this about the? Okay, so here's the quick, quick version of the story. You'll get the punchline very quickly, right?
Speaker 2:So this guy, this business guy, goes to visit the islands and he meets a dude who's playing guitar and sitting by the campfire and they get to talking and it's like well, you know he's, what do you do? And he's like I go out, I fish, I catch a couple fish, I come back, I hang with my friends, I play guitar, I sit around the fire and he goes. Oh man, he goes. That's great. But imagine if you were like to to get a second boat. Hire somebody, right, they fish, they give you a part of the money, and he goes. Well, yeah, if I you know the cool, I can double my business. He goes, yeah, you should double your business. Great, then what? He goes. Well, then you get a whole fleet of boats and you just play it out right All the way to he goes well.
Speaker 2:Then what is the punchline? He goes well. Then you sell the business and he goes well. Then what? He goes well with all the money.
Speaker 2:You basically can like wake up and go fishing for fun and sit by the fire with your friends and play the guitar and it's like, and have the life I already have right now. That's what you want me to do and it's a beautiful story of the difference of being and doing energy. Where can you learn to just be super happy with not achieving, scaling, growing, measuring against somebody else? There's, you know, and also honoring your drive. But at the end of the day, there is no formula that fits for every human. It's just how are you doing in this season of life? What do you need? What do you want? What does that feel like in your body? So if that's your compass and you define success success to somebody as a regulated nervous system, success to somebody as friends, success to somebody as time In my world, an example is and this is I'm going to come back to front row dads for a second with the family, men with businesses versus business with families, and I'll give you a practical way to look at it.
Speaker 2:A practical way, is you build a business and you scale it and you do this for the family. And then one day you're like, hey, I want to take my family on a vacation or I want to do this. How do I fit that into my schedule or my life? The other one is you take out a calendar and you put four weeks in the summer to travel to Europe with your family. You say I want to go to soccer games in the evenings and you build your family calendar. I want to work out this many times. And then you say what kind of business do I want to build around?
Speaker 2:That is another way of doing it and I think that ultimately, you know a buddy of mine, jim Shields, says sometimes business just has to suffer. Sometimes business suffers at the hand of your health. Right Like, you just can't work as many hours. If you're focused on your health to a certain degree and if you're focused on dating your wife or seeing your kids' soccer games, there is an element of business that may suffer. Can you learn leverage? Can you learn how to work smarter? Of course you can All those things, but it really comes down to what does a successful life look like for you more than anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what makes sense out of that? For me, to summarize, it is like clarity on what you want and then learn all your patterns so you can have embodiment within the process at the same time. Yeah, because for me, otherwise, it's like you know, with the whole, you know, stress of business and wanting to succeed and having all the ambition like it makes so much sense because it's like eventually, if you stay in that point of view, you're going to build a life in terms of scarcity and need that it may not be one year from now, it may not be two years from now, but it's like 10 years from now. That's going to buy you in the ass and it's going to hurt, it's going to sting more than ever because you've put all these protective walls to make sure that you can keep this drive and need and craving for success, which has just been like running your nervous system, not you running your nervous system.
Speaker 1:So I was like when you do the healing, you get clear on what you want. I was like, cool, yeah, I do want a business, yeah, I do want a lot of success, but that doesn't take away from the now and even when things get hard, when things get tough when the tax bills hit, when the employees get angry at you when they leave, or when a client something bad happens with a client or something else happens in there. You see it as just a problem to overcome, rather than something that's taking away from your idea and version of success, which kind of comes back around to when you're being. You try to control and manipulate your success and drive.
Speaker 2:Dude. You know, I think the most important thing is there is no right way. There is like your sole contract, your current what is, this is what is, and at any given moment you can pivot, you can turn. I have so many different examples of stories of guys like one of my friends who's very big net worth is not really interested in working anymore right now. You know he just wants a path of relationships and fun and spirituality. He's not really interested in working anymore. He could double his business. And there are other people who are in a season where they very much need to figure out how to put food on the table and how to provide financial security for their family and that's a driver for them and I think that's wonderful. There is no prescription that's going to fit every person. There's just hey, man, how does it all feel right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think identifying the season.
Speaker 2:That's it. It's a knowing that there are seasons is wonderful, yeah, I hit it.
Speaker 1:I landed on on that because I noticed myself getting really triggered when I'd see other people post podcasts and I'd be like, fuck you for posting a podcast. I was like, oh, what is this? And I'm just like, and I'm not doing them Right. But then for me I was like you know, okay, and I was looking at other people getting all these big wins and business success and I was like, okay, I've just got out of a relationship where you know the ex.
Speaker 1:At the time she experienced a lot of trauma and my nervous system was attached to hers, plus I, plus I had a lot of things happen in business where I had this fear of letting employees go, fear of this thing happening. So tax bills are building up, so I was sacrificing tax to keep people on for the roster and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and get hit with a big tax bill and oh shit, I can't pay for this. And blah, blah, blah and I'm like, but I don't have no energy or motivation to do anything. Then, when I was looking at everything else, I was safe because I'm like, oh, I've got assets, I can remove this around, do this whatever. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:It's not my season to be hustling right now. Money come in with like the best clients that I've ever had. Like some amazing clients come in that are having these incredible results. I've like I've traveled the world. I've met the most incredible people. Like podcasting is absolutely flowing and I just kept saying to myself this is your season right now, not the season for hustle and grind and making money. You can do that whenever You've proven it to yourself. You can get on the sales, you can get on the phone. You can start going absolutely nuts. That's not it right now. Like this is your season. The weight just like kind of like left like my body and I was like, oh, as you were speaking, it was just like you know that was really landing for me.
Speaker 2:I was like, yeah, well, it's like weight training. I mean, you spend some time in the gym and it's, it's there's a time to lift something heavy and there's a time to not lift something heavy so that you can recover and build. And I think if we just keep understanding that flow of life the in-breath, the out-breath, the lift something heavy, the set it down and keep leaning in. That's why the daily practice of checking in with yourself, the daily looking at your own life, like I did a 10-day silent meditation retreat this year and the whole concept of this Vipassana meditation is to scan your body and to understand your cravings and your aversions. Ultimately, and if you are checking in every day on your cravings and your aversions in life, you can see the similarities of all these different modalities for learning, whether it's you know this, this Vipassana teaching from the Buddhist philosophy or Tony Robbins.
Speaker 2:You know Tony is teaching towards and away values. What are you moving towards? What are you moving away from? Understanding the effect of it on your life? And then the Buddha, you know, 2,500 years ago, teaching cravings and aversions. What are you moving towards? What do you love and fear? All these things, if we have awareness around that, willing to be creative and play the game maybe differently today than you did yesterday. That is the center point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and one thing that I really noticed around you know, being around your friends and your community and people in front row dads is every conversation that I had it was like everyone was all talking about the last personal development thing that they did, the next thing that they invested in this experience, that they went to this retreat that happened, this next thing. They're always consistently growing and investing in themselves. In these multiple different areas. It's like, yeah, and some things are like, oh, I haven't for a while, I haven't needed to. And then other people are like, yeah, I'm doing this right now, this one's very interesting and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:And, like you know, you can see it's so important as regards to, like you know, was why you put on retreats and why you, you know, have front row dads and everything in there. So, for people who want to get a taste and for people who have come to the conclusion, oh, I have to be consistently doing these modalities. It's a commitment to the cause, right, it's just committing to all of it. But for you, where can people go to get around Front Row Dads? Anything that you've got coming up that you're like we've got to get you guys.
Speaker 2:FrontRowDadscom has everything. I just sent somebody there. We have a big live event in December in Austin, which is a great place. If somebody wants to immerse themselves in the community and see what it's all about, there's no better way than that event. There are also seasons when you should be listening to podcasts, reading books, right, getting advice, hearing stories, you know, understanding frameworks for approaching life. It's a great season to be in.
Speaker 2:I also want to encourage men or women whoever's listening but just time to not listen to anybody else, to turn off the podcast, to don't feel like your value is tied to how many audio books you listened to this year. Don't go to an event. Don't Just listen to yourself, right, space and silence. Now, whether that's listening to you or it's listening to spirit or God, hard to know sometimes which voice is coming through, but I just encourage people to get that in their life as well. And it's funny because obviously, like we're on a podcast, we're in a world where I would benefit greatly if I said the only way is through Front Row Dads, and it is a healthy way and a great way for some. We also just need time alone, not listening to anybody, and so my encouragement is for people to really listen to themselves or the whispers from spirit or God and trust that too, yeah, identify.
Speaker 1:Cause some people will be like, yeah, I need to move and learn this, and other people will be like I need space. But also for me, I also know that if I need space, I need to go to a, that, if I need space, I need to go to a vipassana, I need to go to a retreat with like, hey, we're just, we're gonna take your phone, that's right, and you're gonna do nothing, yeah, except like think and talk. Yes, there's no headphone, we're gonna lock your headphones away as well, so I'm just gonna sit there going. Oh, like you know, just, beautiful containers.
Speaker 2:Yes, put yourself in environments that would support that. I mean even nature. You can. You can do that. You know I do that for myself sometimes from like go for a walk in the woods but leave my phone. Isn't it insane? It's a scary thing for people to do it is.
Speaker 1:But is isn't insane that sometimes, like I, have to go and be in nature, it's like you have to go to nature?
Speaker 2:yes, isn't that?
Speaker 1:crazy.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is when I think about humans.
Speaker 1:I'm like man. We just grew up in nature all the time. That's right, and now we have to go to nature. Sometimes I think about that and I go. But it's so true, like at the same time, like, yeah, I need to go be alone, figure something out. Yeah, relax my nervous system by looking in the mountains or whatever it is, or whatever it is. But, john, thanks for coming on to the podcast and for people listening to this. You got any takeaways? Like please share it. But, most importantly, please allow them to land and make a decision or have a conversation as well with someone else on something that you've learned.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Thanks, brother, appreciate it. Thank you very much, very cool. Hell yeah, all right, man, that's a wrap.