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Set The Standard
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Set The Standard
Men's BIGGEST Dating Mistake That Kills Relationships: Chris Bates #288
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The fear of rejection, being too nice, and never making a move…
If you’ve ever overthought your way into loneliness, struggled with ghosting, or felt stuck in “nice guy syndrome”, this episode is for you.
Corey sits down with dating coach and author Chris Bates to break down modern dating for men: why masculine leadership matters, how to create intimacy without being manipulative, and why being radically yourself is the real dating superpower.
Whether you’re fresh out of a breakup or just done pretending to be who she wants, this conversation will shift the way you date forever.
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Chris Website: https://www.batesdates.com/
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📍 Timestamps:
00:00 – Why men fail at modern dating
01:30 – Fear, analysis paralysis & vulnerability
03:00 – Creating non-negotiables vs outcome obsession
06:00 – Childhood wounds shaping attraction
08:20 – Hookup vs partnership mindset
10:45 – Dating horror story: when loneliness picks your dates
14:00 – Nervous system mismatch: why she felt off
16:00 – Signs you’re not confident or assertive
18:00 – Masculine leadership & Dom-ish polarity
20:00 – When leading creates tension (and when it doesn’t)
22:00 – Gamifying dating without being toxic
24:30 – Why adult play is the spice of life
27:00 – Dating as emotional gym reps
30:00 – Sh*t tests, authenticity & masculine frames
34:30 – Avoiding the friend zone through intimacy
37:00 – Emotional honesty vs emotional manipulation
42:00 – Corey’s story: attention, ego, and loss
45:00 – Chris’s story: depression, self-worth, and healing
47:30 – Post-divorce dating & leading with truth
52:00 – Radical transparency as a masculine edge
54:00 – No date is wasted — every one is a rep
56:00 – Feminine presence is healing, not validation
59:00 – The nice guy reframe: from pleasing to honest service
1:03:00 – Leadership, purpose & emotional safety in dating
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The fear of rejection is creating nice guys, which is ruining dating experiences, and there is nothing worse than getting dosed on a date, not knowing what to say on a date, getting rejected on a date and not being able to build intimacy.
Speaker 1:So imagine being in a position in yourself mentally and like, embodied as a man who's like a really strong leader who can just absolutely crush dates, who can build attraction, who can create intimacy, and not from a toxic perspective, but from an honest, authentic perspective. Well, today's guest wrote an entire book on this series, which gets published very shortly and we're going to, and in this conversation we teach and talk about all of the tips and tricks that you can use today, like right now, in order to go from like a nice guy in dating to an absolute gangster masculine leader. So please welcome today's show Chris Bates, more Bates, more dates, baby man, what do you find? Men just fuck up all the time with dating, so like when their ideas they're like oh, I should be dating like this versus how, modern terms of dating and what you know and you understand, like what's the difference?
Speaker 2:I think a lot of guys get stuck in analysis paralysis because we're very logical and the modern world is so overstimulating, we just have a stupid amount of information and opinions, and so I think, you know, keeping it simple, stupid, even though that's a principle we hear in a lot of places.
Speaker 2:I think that's something that you should do with dating, because I really like the idea of action over marination with anything. But in the dating world it can be especially scary, since dating leads to marriage and partnership and that's probably the most important decision a lot of guys will make in their entire life. So I think guys just fuck up by thinking too much and not doing enough, and that's not to say that like um, they should only, you know, be putting energy into dating, but it's like anything else. It's more about the consistency and this incremental progression and gamifying it and having fun with it, and I know that I just dropped so many different avenues. We can go down, but I think that's the number one thing and they all lead back to this analysis paralysis, or even the grass is greener, fallacy, which can be part of the analysis paralysis and do you reckon that comes from like a fear of just being vulnerable?
Speaker 2:maybe that's part of it, because that's the most courageous thing you can do is be vulnerable, and so it does put you in a vulnerable position, and I think that that's a really scary thing in the modern world because we're exposed, because people can capture everything. You know the game of telephone is more prevalent now than it ever was, especially with women, especially in our social circles. But what do you mean by telephone? Like texting, like any time that you approach or talk to or match with a girl, the possibility that many other people will hear about it, whether you know them or not, but you probably do know a handful of them. So there's a risk factor there that I think leads to or at least contributes to the analysis paralysis. So there's vulnerability in just like taking action.
Speaker 2:But and I think there was another podcast, I forget the gentleman's name that you were talking with you talk about with content. There was another podcast, I forget the gentleman's name that you were talking with you talk about with content. You have to stop caring what people think and just do the right thing over and over again for the right people, and you let the people who shouldn't have an opinion on what you're doing and saying fall to the wayside, and I think it's the same thing in dating you have to get the reps in and just trust that if you do it with integrity, your reputation will precede you and the right woman, or maybe the women that you encounter along the way to the right woman, will understand the reasons why you're doing it and just kind of let all the other opinions that you shouldn't be listening to fall to the wayside yeah interesting.
Speaker 1:So it's kind of like, you know, I have this idea of, like what I want to get out of a relationship and in, you know, a person, whether it be a woman or a man, and it's like just focus on that. Um, it makes a lot of sense because one thing that I feel like I got confused in like with my dating. My dating life was like okay, write down on a piece of paper everything that I want, versus be open to whatever comes in what. What do you think's like the the best way to go about it? Because I don't know. Yeah right, I'm still in this thing.
Speaker 2:I'm like I don't know yeah, well, and nobody knows, like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna sit here and be like this is the answer. You know I don't like being that prescriptive. I think it's more about, uh, exploring what the answer is for you. But it's a marvelous question and I think the reality is you have to have a list of non-negotiables, because those are the things that are going to compromise the long-term success of a relationship. And then, if you go one step further back, why are you looking for a relationship? So I'm prefacing this in the context that a man wants to date to find the right woman to get married and have kids and a prosperous life with his partner, and so if that's your goal, then the list of non-negotiables should be short, but they should be powerful and you should never compromise on them. But outside of that very short list, like you said, I think you need to be open, because if you have a very large list, you cut a lot of people out, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, but you don't really know what you want.
Speaker 2:This is what I find working with guys and with myself over the years is we have the audacity to believe that we know what we want and what we need without the experience to back it up, and no matter how much experience you get, you still probably need more. So I think why not reverse engineer it and just have again this foundation of concrete things that you don't compromise on, but then the flexibility and the openness will actually help you find a woman and capture a woman who far exceeds anything you could have ever planned or wrote a list about, and I call it leaving a room for the magic. You know, you got to leave room for the magic and you'll be so pleasantly surprised, and the byproduct of leaving the room for magic is that it's less stressful because, instead of you trying to manipulate the outcome, all you're doing is putting input in and you're saying, okay, how's this going to play out? I find that that's really reviving for a lot of guys. It helps you avoid cynicism and also makes the dating process less cumbersome and less. You know.
Speaker 1:Time sour, energy sucking yeah, I feel like um for me in that situation. There's multiple times where I'm like this is exactly what I want, and then I've got it, and then I've been like, oh, this hasn't worked out?
Speaker 2:why didn't work out in those situations? Do you think?
Speaker 1:Oh man, like well, I think is what you said beforehand, right? I think I thought I knew what I wanted, but that was coming from a place of me where I was like, okay, this version of me right now hasn't integrated as much of my own self-awareness and like trauma patterns and all the rest of it that I think that I know what I want. A prime example for me was I'm like every time, like for me, whenever I received love from my mum, it was like this mushy kind of stuff and I was like you know, get the fuck away from me. As a kid, I'm like ugh, yuck, like no.
Speaker 1:So I developed this thing that anytime a woman would show me this like you know, this love, this softness and this caring and this nurturing, I was like, oh, fuck off, stay away from me. So I was like, yeah, I don't want a woman who's as much like that. And then, after a couple of relationships, I'm like oh no, that's exactly what I want from a woman. And I didn't know how to even receive it. So even now, a date that I went on, someone called me handsome and I was just like, I love being called handsome, but this is really hard to receive. I was like because as a kid, that's what, like you know the older woman would tell me they'd be like oh, you're a handsome boy, whatever. And I'm like like gross, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's what I think on that dude, it's interesting because we're basically saying that you have to find this medium where you're, when you have enough control, but you're not obsessed with control, and it's that's why it's hard to define, and I think people have to experiment for themselves to figure out where that middle ground is right. You have enough direction, you're taking action, you're getting experience, you have experience and you don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water and be too open, but on the other hand, you also don't want to be so strict and concrete with what you believe to be true, because you know it will evolve yeah and it's an interesting, it's an interest, and I find that not to get wildly existential in the first you know three seconds of a podcast, but I think everything in in life and in the world is like that, especially when it comes to your desires.
Speaker 2:There's this middle ground and you have to always kind of take into account that people tend to swing to the extremes, and so you have to be conscious of the inertia of your pendulum and keep it in this like Goldilocks zone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's also part of that is like being careful around your desires and having a lot of awareness around them, cause I like this quote. It's like when you take a step towards your desire, desire takes a step towards you, and I love that and that's what's happened to me. It's like be careful what you wish for, cause you just might get it. And then I've been like, oh shit, I want to know the difference as well. What's the difference between dating to bang and dating to like find a partner, like for men in particular, like what? What do you think the difference is, and is there a different way to approach it if that's the case?
Speaker 2:I think it comes from and I don't I don't know if I've ever really said this out loud, so it's really good questions. That's why I'm kind of marinating on it is, I think it comes from are your needs as an individual met before you're looking for a partner? Um, because and it's not to say that, because I don't like the notion that we as individuals should be whole alone. We're social creatures Like, yes, a little bit of alone time, everybody needs that.
Speaker 2:But to say that you need to be 100% complete, if you were in a vacuum with no interaction with other people in real life, face to face, and no physical affection or emotional connection, anyone would get depressed. There's a reason why that is. The primary form of effective torture is isolation. So I don't think the notion that, oh, we have to figure out all our problems on our own. I think that's bullshit.
Speaker 2:But if you have done enough and you're living a life that gives you the sense of purpose and peace, then I think men are more likely to look for a partnership versus a woman to bang. But if they are kind of I don't want to say broken, because we're never completely fixed right, we're always working on ourselves. But if you are kind of neglecting building out the life that you love every day. If you're neglecting pursuing purpose or in investing in passion, then I think you're more likely to get distracted by the desires of the flesh and the trivial stuff and the surface level stuff, because you don't understand the value that comes with a long-term relationship and it's a, it's a perspective, I think, based off of origin and intention interesting.
Speaker 1:I like that. So one thing on this as well as I I got so many questions on this I want to, I'm want to pivot just a little bit. Okay, I want to know your nightmare, horror dating stories that you've had when you've been super embarrassed, where you've fucked up and you know you've been like oh shit, because I feel like even still, it's such a thing for guys. It's like men get a lot of respect if they know how to get the girl, the girl, get her on a date, kiss the girl and all those things like that's like such a skill, because for us men, what I feel is that we get attached to the oh my goodness, sex could possibly happen yeah, like distracted. So it takes a lot of like embodiment, I feel, for men to like go through the, the dating practice. So I want to hear about like your horror stories and like you know what not to do and then get into like, yeah, what to do that's like it's half of my book is what not to do.
Speaker 2:It's based off of my mistakes, you know. Um, because I didn't. I didn't want to necessarily put other people's mistakes out there. I want to take ownership of mine and there's something really freeing about that, and so I think a lot it's interesting that we jumped straight to this from what we talked about last time, because I think a lot of the times that men, including myself, fuck up which is honestly a great way to move forward is when you are doing it for the wrong reason. And so if I look back the times that like doing it for the wrong reason, and so I, if I look back the times that, like I was seeing a girl or trying to go on a second date, but I knew deep down that probably shouldn't see her, cause the first day didn't go that well, but it was out of loneliness. You know, that was when I fucked up. A lot of things came out of loneliness.
Speaker 1:What was it? What did it have to fuck up?
Speaker 2:It. It's because on the first date I I was going to be five minutes late. I got stuck in traffic and classic austin traffic. When I first moved here, I lived out by the tesla factory, which is like 25 minutes from town. I was coming in during rush hour, which at like doubles it at minimum, and so I had this reservation in a sushi restaurant and this girl seemed sweet. We had only we had matched on a hinge.
Speaker 2:I had only talked with her text a few times, because I typically like to save the magic for in person, and so on. On the way there I was like, hey, I'm gonna be like three to five minutes late, just wanted to let you know in case you get there before me, because I typically like to get there early, or even liked to pick her up, but she wasn't comfortable with me picking her up, which I totally understand, but I still like to offer, because that's who I am and I believe in chivalry. And then she responded with bonded with oh, you're going to be three to five minutes late. Like we shouldn't do this, we should just cancel. I was like, okay, this is pretty extreme reaction. But as I stepped into problem solving mode and I was determined because I'm a stubborn bastard sometimes just make sure she went out on the date still. So I I said hey, it's gonna be fine, whatever, reassured her. I called her. She didn't pick up. I sent her a voice message and, like you know, I'm gonna go anyway. There. I park, I walk in I still haven't heard from her.
Speaker 2:And these two girls walk in and they're like giving me these shifty eyes and they're like what's going on here? And there's another table nearby that's looking at me and I just noticed these things and I was like I haven't even heard from her yet and I didn't know. I was going to get stood up, go back outside and check on her. And that continued for 45 minutes until she showed up. So it's like, okay, it sounds like that's a her thing. No, I should have read the signs and be like you know what, let's not have a date and kind of backtracked and take ownership over that.
Speaker 2:But I was so stubborn, I was like I have to do this, because what does it say about me if I don't get this girl on the date?
Speaker 2:And so the way it ended up happening is we had a great first date, but those girls that walked in and the other table the other table was her ex and his friends and the other table was her friends and they were like vetting me for her before she arrived. And so I'm not and I'm not trying to put the blame on her for this, but, like, sometimes you just have to trust your gut instinct. And when she said, oh, oh, this might be well, I might cancel my guidance, he was like, you know, maybe I should let that go, like I shouldn't necessarily cling to this and force this. But as a result of forcing it, I was like, oh, I got my just desserts out of this because I I kind of saw the writing on the wall and I chose to ignore it. So there's a lot of stuff like that and that one. I was a little lonely at the time and I think that's where the desire to make the date happen came from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, that's crazy. It's like what is it about when you're a man where you attract the wrong woman based off your own nervous system and your way of being like? Has that happened other times as well? Because it sounds to me like well, because you're lonely, like, it's kind of like you manifested, yeah, that whole situation right, yeah, I was like.
Speaker 2:I see it. It's like, um, like a pie chart, you know, and there's different slices that are different categories, and if you are missing a certain slice it's the same. Maybe a puzzle piece is a better metaphor. It's the same shape of someone else's lack of regulated central nervous system. That fits that. So then it fits and you guys fit together, but it's for the wrong reasons and it doesn't actually really help the puzzle in the long run. It's like it's actually a different puzzle. It just happens to be the same perimeter of the piece and you're like, oh, this, this does not look right. This image isn't looking, is it?
Speaker 2:but it's because you, like, you took something out that wasn't supposed to be there, and I know this sounds in kind of just the position or just a I can't say that just a position now we're screwed just position, um, juxtaposition of what I was saying before, where it's like, oh, because you don't need to be all things as an individual, but I think there's certain categories that when you're lacking or you're insecure or you're out of regulation, you're more likely to find that piece that fits but shouldn't be there.
Speaker 2:And so sometimes it was loneliness, sometimes it was validation, and there are two long-term relationships I had where it was actually the lack of me being assertive or confident enough, which I think is tied to, you know, hormones, testosterone and just masculinity in general. So it's interesting that when I lacked masculinity, I attracted women who were more masculine, not necessarily in appearance, but in terms of their perspective or their actions, or maybe that season of life right, because we all have ebbs and flows and so that was a big one for me and, I see, for a lot of guys. It's not that we want to be hyper-masculine, right, we should be 80-20, I think for most of the time but the lack of really stepping into your masculinity, of being confident, of being appropriately, um, assertive and tactful so what does it?
Speaker 1:what does it look like for a guy if he noticed that, like you know, he may. He may not know if he's not being assertive and confident. Like what are the signs that a guy has if he's not that?
Speaker 2:I think, think you feel it because you want to say something but you catch it before it comes out right. You have these thoughts and these feelings and you're like, oh, I shouldn't do this because I might get a bad reaction. Or I shouldn't do this because who am I to share my opinion? Or I want to say this, but my opinion's not important, I don't add any value. It's these kinds of self-talk and that kind of track that I think really shows that, because I think a man who's really stepping into his masculine and his confidence isn't afraid to say what he believes, and that's to say he's an asshole. Right Again, the pendulum always swings, but there's a certain level of tact and conscientiousness that comes with sharing your truth truth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like leading like that. I remember shitting my pants when it comes like holding a girl's hand, or like getting a kiss, like the whole, like the conversation of like oh, how do I get the kiss? Like get in my head like if I do this thing and this thing and this thing, and blah, blah, blah, instead of just like reading the energy and going with like how I'm gonna kiss her, or like, oh, I want to say like know, I just want to say something cheeky to her. Or like this, which is about the relationship with the date used to like scare the living shit out of me. I remember like a few years ago and then like changing. That was just ridiculous. What?
Speaker 2:changed for you between like that and now.
Speaker 1:It was as you were talking about, you know, the assertiveness and confidence. It was like getting clear on who I wanted to be as a masculine leader. And I was like, okay, like men, like one thing is like what I heard is like women want a man who has like emotional intelligence and can lead, but and it's like, okay, that's something that she wants. And I feel like that's like a whole different conversation. But for me, I was like the realization was, oh, I want to lead in the relationship and I want her to follow my leadership. That turns me on.
Speaker 1:So I was like, okay, and I didn't realize the sort of like you know, domish, kind of energy that I like to play in. And I was like, oh, if I lead this way, that for me is going to go. Oh, I like this which gives me more energy in the relationship. I'm like I'm having fun right now, this which gives me more energy in the relationship, I'm having fun right now. And then, if I try to lead and be like a little bit domi and I get like gratitude back or I get like a little bit of push before, I'm like, oh, this is fun, we can play in this. And then like, yeah, that's like what changed for me, so yeah, yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting because there's some and I was just talking with some guys about this last night there are some instances where a woman gives you really positive feedback for taking the lead and telling her the honest truth and making decisions, and there's other times where that same woman will be like why did you tell me this? You shouldn't have said that Like I don't like this. Have said that Like I don't like this, and and I think it's all. And it's not to say that they're, you know, bipolar or that you're doing anything wrong, but whether it's just so much contact, there's so much context that's required for each situation of when should you offer your opinion and how much have you asked questions before you take leadership action, because I think a lot of times people think a leader is somebody who just always knows the right answer and is always going to do the right thing and should never be questioned. That's, it couldn't be further from the truth.
Speaker 2:I think true leadership is getting a pulse check on the front lines, right, like a good commander or general or whatever is also led by the information that comes from the front lines. Now, do they make the ultimate decision in times of crisis? Probably. But do they also outsource trust and do they also take in information all the time? Or they'd be a shit leader, you know, and so I think that's a nuance that's often missed. It's like if you have to walk around with a visible lat syndrome and bump it like metaphorically or literally, and you're just like knocking shit over and you're not paying attention to the environment or the variables or the people that you care about around you, that's not leadership, that's just an absence of awareness yeah, so how do we get good at that?
Speaker 1:as?
Speaker 2:men. I think asking for feedback is a big part of it, um, and not just from women, but from men that we respect, um, and really even the people that might be like. If you're in a business where there's a hierarchy, sometimes the people below you give you the best feedback. If you're a coach, I get the best feedback from my clients. I wouldn't be able to lead without their feedback. Um, with my girlfriend it's the same way. I could not be able to lead without asking questions and really marinating on her feedback. And, um, I think, in the same, it's the same thing within our families and our friendships. Right, the people that you're closest to that respect you the most, that will follow your leadership. They the probability they will do so is exponentially increased when they know because you've done the, the, the foundational work to understand their perspective, even if you don't agree with it. Uh, just curiosity, I think, is underrated in leadership.
Speaker 1:For that reason, yeah, so how do you think that we can use this? If I'm a single man, I want to get some dates now how do we use that to actually get dates with women that we want to be on date with?
Speaker 2:I think you have to have fun with it and gamify it. But I'm always hesitant to say the word gamify because you're like oh, you're playing games. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, like, make a process of discovery, which is really part of curiosity within the dating world, so that you are just you have so much inertia, so, no matter how many times you might get shut down or ghosted or someone's like you know, dating multiple men and not being truthful with you about that that you just love the process of discovering what's out there and learning from that feedback that you get from womenicism, and when you can keep cynicism at bay and you can enjoy and gamify the process to your own preference. What?
Speaker 1:do you mean by?
Speaker 2:cynicism, I think, as men go on dates and they start to meet women that maybe they don't get along with or they have bad experiences with those women, or they get ghosted by these women, or maybe they're oh, they have a good personality, but I'm not attracted to them in other dimensions they start to lose hope. So I think the cynicism is really just a lack of faith in um the other gender, or in relationships or dating in general, and it happens to both men and women, and so the the biggest part, outside of gamification and enjoying the process, I think, is faith that all of this is leading to something that will be worth uh, every, every step and every hardship and I love the terminology gamification.
Speaker 1:Like I love games. Like for me, I think it's fantastic. People like, oh, like who, you here to play games? I'm like, yeah, but there's a difference. If you're playing toxic games because your intentions off versus I can play games because I know what I want, this is going to be fun and I actually get to play. Yeah, because I feel like I don't know. I'd love to hear you like your opinion on this. Like as an adult, it's like adult play is the dynamics so important Between like men and a woman. Like that is the playing, it is the teasing, the mucking around the playing games.
Speaker 2:Like oh, are the mucking around the playing games like, oh, are we gonna date, are we gonna go? Blah, blah, blah. It's like you know, it gets a little bit risky and fun. I'm like, for me I feel like games is. Is it? Yeah, it's. You can create inside jokes, it can lead to really deep conversations. It makes life fun and I think, even in the early stages of dating, playing games to the degree that you're talking about is actually the spice of life, because people talk about oh especially I hear from men a lot oh well, you know, dating the same girl. She gets boring, sex gets boring, conversations get boring.
Speaker 2:And I was like you're probably not taking the initiative to gamify life with bro. You're fucking boring, bro. Yeah well, you're not even just investing. I think every, I don't think people are by default boring.
Speaker 2:I think the world makes us boring because in our pursuit of, you know, finding purpose and passion, the world beats us down and we start to um, even if we don't realize it, we start to concede more and more and more and it's an uphill battle. But then when you resist and you fight, that's when you have fun with literally everything, even if it's not something that you enjoy. Even if life throws you a curveball, like you got a breakup you didn't see coming, or your wife cheated on you, or you got set up on a date later on, you'll find a way to laugh about it and learn from it. And so I think humor and that kind of gamification makes everything from waking up in the morning next to your significant other to walking the dogs and making coffee, to running grocery errands. It makes it fun because you're joking and you're laughing and you're building depth and all these things. And that's not just dating right, that's in your work. People who are playful in their work are also the most successful and the most motivated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so true. I heard I think it was Owen Cook said this Do you follow Owen Cook? No, oh, he's great. I like a lot of his content. He said and I really believe this he was like women don't give a fuck about your money, they don't give a fuck about the shit you've achieved, they don't care about your cars, they don't care about your body, blah, blah. He's like you know. And then he's like a lot of men feel like women aren't actually that loyal. They're like why am I attracting these women here that aren't loyal? He's like dude. Women are like designed to be the most loyal creatures and the only reason she's not loyal is because you're not having fun with her, like if she was having fun and you made her laugh, which is written on like every girl's hinge profile.
Speaker 2:I want a man who can make me laugh.
Speaker 1:He's like she will literally like burn under a bridge with you until you can get to X, y, z. It's when you know that in the relationship isn't working. It's like fucks up. So how do you gamify that process to make that happen?
Speaker 2:for men, yeah, I think you have to first realize that everything worth doing in life has a hurdle. If there was no price to pay for entry, it wouldn't be worth it. And the right relationship and dating women is no different. So once you come to terms with oh, this is something everybody deals with, this is not like there's something wrong with me. It's not that I'm broken or that other guys don't encounter this same problem. It's just that I need to get a little bit of a thicker skin, build in the reps, get some experience, build a proficiency and then enjoy that process.
Speaker 2:Because, like it goes back to what you were saying before. It reminds me of sports. Like you could play games, which is like really just trolling or fucking with people, which is, I would say, the the toxic realm, or avoiding the truth is like the toxic games. But then, if you think about sports, like there's a reason why guys love sports because there's a role. You get better at that role. You there's other people you're performing with, around you and competing with, and, whether you win or lose, when you leave the pitch or the court or the field and you've done your absolute best, there is no better feeling. And so I think it's the same thing with dating and that's how you really enjoy the process and build the confidence, because you love the game not playing games but you love the game of progression, because that gratification is probably paralleled by very little in life.
Speaker 1:Oh, I couldn't agree more. So I want to know what are some things that you do that have been like gamified, that you've had a lot of fun before. You got into a relationship when you were like dating and you were like, yeah, this is I'm hitting this, like this is some good shit right here, like I'm having a lot of fun, like what's that for you?
Speaker 2:At first, when so I was married for five years, got divorced, moved to Austin, never lived in a city, never been on the apps. So part of the initial game was like how do I get matches with the women I'd like to take out?
Speaker 1:So you started apps.
Speaker 2:Sorry, you started dating, yes, when I moved here for the first time. So Hinge, yeah, that is not about, you know, bumble or Tinder, because I don't like it when the woman starts the conversation because that's not the kind of woman I'm looking for. I need to have the courage to start the conversation, you know, and that was hard for me. So I was like I can't use Bumble because that doesn't help me strengthen that skillset. And the most fun I had was as I started to go on first dates with women was like how can I show up more unabashedly myself versus the representative and what the representative is is all the good parts about myself that I would think a woman wants to see and unabashedly myself is like the edgy shit that's really me.
Speaker 1:So like on the first day so like dark humor like.
Speaker 2:Helen Keller jokes right, like I'm like if, like, like, if we're talking, I'm going to ask her a question. She says something and I have a funny joke that comes to mind. I'm like, all right, let's pressure test this. I just lay it out there and she feel uncomfortable. Does she laugh? Does she like look around and see like what, how does she react? And so that became part of a game for me of like how can I remove the filters and say, and like, fuck vegetables and see how like women react? Right, because she's like, what do you mean? I thought vegetables good for you. And then I like kind of go down that that spiel and cause that was a big part of my life when I moved here is like working for heart and soil before it and Paul took off, and so I was part of that. You know cult, I mean they're great, I loved it.
Speaker 1:The dating world in general has a long-term investment and if you're not willing to do the right things in the beginning, it will be a short-term investment and then that short-term investments are a waste of resources.
Speaker 2:They're very painful and in the beginning they seem easier, but in the long run they're so much harder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like that's so handy for men especially to understand. It's like because men get shit tested a lot from women, you know whether you know they'll get on a date and they'll start getting tested straight away and just like saying things and men on edge straight away, which is like poking or prodding or pushing his masculinity or seeing what he can do and then like he will fail those shit tests and be like shit. Now I need to prove myself that I'm the guy and then you've, you've, you've lost already, bro.
Speaker 1:So you've lost already, like you've, like some sort of position yeah when I like that, because that's like you're, you're testing her to see if she actually fits in your life. So then you know, and I feel like for men, that's the best way to go, because she does. It's the reason she shit, test you is to see if she can match in your life, not like the other way around, because you know, it's like you know if you're the one who's going to impregnate her, she's going to have a family with you, blah, blah, blah. It's like you're the leader, you know, I mean most of the time. It's like she's going to trust, even if she makes all the money you're still leading in the relationship. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So it's like I feel like she's trying to test that. Yeah, but that's genius, because it's like it's putting you in like um, like like a frame or a position where it's like that's where confidence gets built and that's where, like, insecurity disappears, like making a lot of sense out of what you're saying. Yeah, because you know what you want as a guy. So it's like test this and if she doesn't fit too bad, like that's not going to go well, we can finish it there. It's all good, like I'm all good with actually rejecting you and not being the one who's been rejected yeah, and I didn't really think about it that way.
Speaker 2:But maybe I'm more simple-minded because, again, like, like we're so inundated with overstimulation, I was like what's the best way to filter out? And be honest with myself, I was like, oh, I'm not really testing her, I'm just looking for compatibility. So it's more of like and I don't mean to pick on the semantics of it, but I like the word like discovery versus test. I'm discovering who she is and she's discovering who I am.
Speaker 2:I'm not like all right, here's the test You're going to pass or fail Like I'm genuinely curious and I think women and it's hard, I don't want to speak from the woman's perspective, but I talked to a ton of women because I don't want to think. I have these theories and hypotheses and I'm telling men something, but I have no idea if it resonates or works with women and the feedback I get most from women is that, um, dates go well when they don't come into it with this preconceived notion that, um, they have to figure out if a man is good or bad or right and wrong, and I think it's a similar thing for men is like you should go into it with discernment but openness, and then with what you were saying, it's so you don't even play the game of the test, even if they test you. You just choose not to participate and that's almost like the most powerful thing you can do.
Speaker 1:well, it's the most authentic like, and I feel like that's the like, the main gist of it. It's like regardless. It's like it's like in the moment, like whether there's language and tests or not, like both ways, whatever it is. It's like it's your ability just to remain as authentic as possible. Yeah, the whole time, without getting into your head like how do you think men can like get to that position?
Speaker 2:before I answer that I have to think, illustrate, in case there's females listening or men who, like, really want to know that they're not the only ones that deal with this.
Speaker 2:When you're meeting a woman for the first time and you're resisting the I don't know, not even the impulse, but the urge to not be authentic, it's equivalent to what's that famous statue where the guy has the world on his back Atlas, that's what that reminds me of.
Speaker 2:It's like being fucking Atlas, because the pressure is there and but you know, you just have to hold this thing for an hour or however long, and not let the urge to be an authentic crush you. That's really what it feels like, and maybe women don't know that and maybe the women have the same pressure, I don't know. But I think for the men out there that have gone through dates and they're feeling this and like, oh wow, nobody else probably has as much trouble being authentic as I do. No, we all are there because there's this innate thing in us to lead with our best foot and to impress somebody, and I get that and that's not necessarily a terrible thing. But I would say, just flex that muscle over and over until you can hold the Atlas stone for the whole first day and I think you'll be really happy with how that goes yeah, I like that because I think, like, the more authentic you are as well, then you can actually start to build intimacy.
Speaker 1:Because I know one thing that men also struggle with a lot is trying to bring some intimacy into the first date, right, and be like, oh, I need to bring something here and, like you know, create a sort of um tension and there's pressure for that as well, and if they don't know how to do it authentically, they kind of fuck up so like, yeah, you know from your knowledge, like what, how can men like create and stimulate you know some more like intimate moments during the actual relationship, so they don't get friend zoned. Because that's the thing I know. Like so many times I've been on dates before, especially when I was younger. I go on dates and dates and I'd just get friend-zoned all the time and I was like, fuck, why do I always get friend-zoned? And it was so frustrating.
Speaker 2:I think the answer to this question is similar to the answer of your last question, which I realize I didn't really fully answer with the Atlas Stone, so I want to revisit it. Is you incrementally build up this muscle? It's not like you listen to this podcast or you decide that you're going to be authentic and you go on the first date and you hold the Atlas stone for an hour. It's about oh, I'm going to see how long I can hold on to it. Maybe the first time it's 15 minutes, and then I start to degrade in terms of my authenticity. That's okay, give yourself some grace and do it again, and then you'll find it'd be 30 minutes, and then 45, and then 60, and then three dates, and then four months, then a year or however long. You know. It's like build. It's like it's just like the physiology you do best when you give time for your body to acclimate. And it's the same thing with your character and letting that unabashed side of your character shine through. And so when it comes to creating intimacy or the spark or the magnetism, I think it's similar. You kind of have to take a shot, and I think part of it is physical intimacy and the other part of it is range. So back to the vulnerability piece, and this leads into being unabashedly yourself can cover an array of, you know, humor and, um, also depth.
Speaker 2:When you're vulnerable through a story of somewhere where you fucked up or that's something that hurt but it meant a lot to you and you've grown from that, that, I think, will create attraction in a woman.
Speaker 2:I don't think men should do that for the purpose of creating attraction, but I think they should do that for the purpose of being vulnerable and flexing that muscle. And then you build up this thing where, oh, I can be vulnerable, um, you know, on the second date, but then I can actually be vulnerable the first day, or maybe it can be vulnerable over text before I meet her, or like when I approach her in the wild or whatever. And it's kind of like a reverse engineering side of it is like the sooner that you're vulnerable, the more easy I think it is to build emotional intimacy and physical intimacy is. I mean, that's a whole nother conversation, but I think it starts with the emotional link for women and then you kind of get the signs that you can take permission to hold their hand or put your hand in the small of their back to push or position them away from traffic. All these, like you know, cliche things. They really work.
Speaker 1:But all three of these areas, it's all about incremental progression yeah, and it's like you know what's the journey from like a guy who's like I says I'm scared shitless to do that, to getting the confidence to be able to do it like like, what is that progression? A thousand reps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just thousands and thousands of reps. Because and again, maybe my gym bro-ness is showing um, but you don't go into the gym, you bench 225 for the first time, right, you have to like okay, you have to decide to get a gym membership. You have to go to the gym, you have to figure out form, maybe get guidance, like that's the thing about this that really grinds my gear, sometimes really rustles my jimmies. Is that I knew I should have said that? Is that Locking in my jimmies? Is that I knew I should have said that. Is that locking in? That was funny is men think that they pop out of the womb and they should be able to date like a pro.
Speaker 2:What skill in life do you to literally leave your mom's vagina and you just know exactly how to do it right and the way you need to. So this is why community and coaching and guidelines and repetitions and experience are so helpful. And it's the same as a gym. I mean, I've seen some Instagram clips of these babies who look like Arnold Schwarzenegger incarnate just popping out of the womb. But if you're not that guy and most of us aren't I need um, you need to know that other men are going through the similar challenges. You might need a mentor or guidance or like a dating sherpa or whatever you want to call it, and so I think the more that we reduce the stigma about learning about how to show up unabashedly yourself and how to date and how to pursue your purpose, then the better men will get a dating, the better the dating world world will become.
Speaker 1:I think better healing in general will become, because I feel like men who aren't getting the dates and getting frustrated and always get rejected and take it out of themselves and then if they start like going down the temptation route of drugs and other stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah, they're the ones who get fucked up, they're the ones that hurt themselves or other people if they don't because they aren't getting the attention that they need. Like there was a study done that was like this is really heavy, by the way, just on here. It was like they studied all these men who were rapists and they were like it was like 90 of them. They went into, it was 100 of them. They were like okay, why did this happen? Right, men who convicted this crime and it was every single one of them didn't get the love that they needed from their mums, so they tried to grab it for themselves right out of unintegration.
Speaker 1:And I'm like well, a solution to that, because I don't think any woman should ever go through anything like that, fucking ever. I'm very passionate about that is teaching men how to fucking date like it really is, because then they can get what they want in like a healthy way, especially from a young age, when our testosterone is so fucking high man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good way to link those together. At first, it's like where are you going with this? We're about to get canceled, but you're right, you're not wrong, dude. But no, what I mean? How you connected the study to the solution. I think there's something to that. You connected the study to the the solution. I think there's something to that, because I mean, especially when your testosterone is high and it should be, which is a whole nother epidemic and problem you do need something to channel that to, and it needs to be your, your purpose or your person or something you know in between. You know, dude?
Speaker 1:yeah, because when I was. This is like what I was like. I want to know why. Essentially, I want to know why you're so passionate, right, and I, and I want to know, like, how you got there.
Speaker 1:But for me, I grew up singing, dancing and acting, so from the age of eight to the age of 16, I had the most feminine attention you could ever imagine. I mean, like I would lay down on couches, I'd have a girl in between my legs, a girl on like in front of me, two girls laying behind me and then one like playing with my hair. I would go to like our dance parties at our like dance place and I'd have like one girl grinding on one leg, one girl grinding in the middle, one girl grinding on the other leg. I'm 12, bro, like like I'm 12, right, I would be like behind stage, like when we're about to get on stage in theater productions and we're like kissing girls and like trying to get their boobs out and all this stuff, like all this is like happening all the time.
Speaker 1:I'm like, yeah, like 10, 11 and 12, with all of this attention then leading on to like 13, 14, 15 and it's just like saturating me. I'm like, oh my god, look at this. But I was like the guy of like the dance school, like me and a couple of the bros, because we had like actually some more dudes there, but it just happened everywhere like everyone at like dance schools, because there's men and women, girls and like boys and stuff, and we're like you know, we're creating tv shows together, theater productions together. There's a lot of intimacy, gets like created in a short period of time. We're all going through like. Everyone is just like hyper sexualized as well, because there's a lot of different ages.
Speaker 1:It's like summer camp and steroids bro, yeah, but, but like we're young man, yeah, but when I hit like my teenage years and we started going out to town and meeting girls and all this stuff no attention and I was like what the fuck is going on? So I had this entitlement of like I should be getting attention. So I never even wanted to approach girls. I never wanted to even talk to girls. I was like no, they come to me, blah, blah, blah. But at that age, when you're like 20 broke uni student, whatever it is, you ain't getting no damn attention. Yeah, so it's like I want to know like for you, like how did you get really passionate about it and what was like the things for you that helped you understand how to get what you want? Yeah, yeah, because I didn't know until I had to have, like I had like four breakups.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like, oh okay it's a great question, but I really, I'm really curious when you were because that's a really young age to get that much attention and you don't really know a lot about yourself and you're still developing and hormones yeah, the whole nine. So I'm curious, how did, looking back, how did that make you feel to get all that attention?
Speaker 1:I feel like g dude, yeah I was the g ego just went. I was like I'll just always get like. It was kind of like a good attitude, I think, to be in, if it's from like a healthy position, but because I just got so much attention all the time, it was it was like fantastic. However, whenever there was a girl that I actually wanted couldn't get it, because I'm just so used to, oh yeah, and I was just like attention problems every girls, but there's one girl that I would like, and the next minute, because I didn't know what to do. I mean, I'm 12 and I'm like pursuing women, like I'm like I want to date this girl. I still thought they had cooties at that time.
Speaker 1:I was like I want to make this girl my girlfriend and then especially getting like 14, 15 and then, like you know, having conversation, like having conversation with sex of all the girls there, and like yeah, I remember I think I was like 13 and I had a conversation with a girl who was like 16 or 17. She just told me everything about sex because I was just asking her questions and I was like I want to do that and I'm like I'm like 13, so it kind of like got confusing and I put a lot of pressure on myself to fit in with the big kids, yeah, in order to, you know, have sex or date or get women. So, yeah, yeah, bro, there's a lot of ego at that age and a lot of expectation, so I think that created a lot of entitlement for me, which is why I feel like I got smacked by, like you know, four big breakups yeah, the we're probably opposite.
Speaker 2:In that way, it's like I didn't think that women would ever be interested in me when I was 12 or 13, no matter how big or strong or successful or wise. That I got over the rest of my years and so obviously that was me being hard on myself. It has not been true, but that's part of why I'm passionate about it is because I really had about when I was in middle school with self-loathing and self-value, and it's really interesting how our character arcs evolves, because as a kid I didn't care what anybody thought. I was very individual. I was everyone's friend. I just wanted to go out and adventure and meet people and live life.
Speaker 2:And then you start to go through adolescence and, at least for me in the US, in middle school things got really tough because you start to become aware that you might care what other people think. School things got really tough because you start to become aware that you might care what other people think, and then I started to overthink oh, am I saying the right thing? Do people like me? Blah, blah, blah. The reality is they don't give a shit. But I didn't know that then, and so I contemplated suicide. I almost pulled the trigger literally. But I had a friend who also almost OD'd and I saw what that did to his life and his family. So I was like I'll never do that, I'll never consider that again. And that was from judgment at middle school. Essentially I was bullied a little bit, but really, if I'm honest, it's more about how I chose to view myself. That was the problem.
Speaker 1:So you just got lonely and started like that. Loneliness started spiraling.
Speaker 2:Exactly exactly. But then after I saw how detrimental my friend's suicide attempt was, I was like, oh I'm, this is the most unkind I can thing I can do for anybody around me or anyone I care about, and so that was probably like early high school. And so then I started to come back up to who I was. I returned to my who I was as a child and I just started to become more playful and reasonably disagreeable and more authentic and all these things. And since high school it's probably been I there's still some things I'm working on, but it's been like a I don't know 12 year progression.
Speaker 2:It was a big hockey stick but it's never stopped and I noticed that I was more magnetic with women and more at peace with the relationships I was in, the further towards my natural state that I progressed, or rather returned to, which is very interesting. So my passion comes from helping guys realize and just wanting to plant the seeds, that you can either choose to be a victim to the modern world and to the dating world or you can choose to return to who you are at your core, and in the process you can acquire the woman of your dreams.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So what was that like for you? Because, like you got married, yeah, so, like. So, what was that like for you? Because, like you got married, yeah, so, like you know, for you it was like you're dating, you're figuring out and you're like, all right, this is the one like, let's go into this. Like, how does that, how's that impacted?
Speaker 2:like the dating life I thought that being married and divorced would make me damaged goods. I thought that I'd have a lot of baggage from it.
Speaker 1:Was that like hard to get back into dating after that?
Speaker 2:It wasn't because it was a marriage of convenience and I'm from a small town, a small area, and we knew each other for years before we started dating. Our families knew each other. We were in acapella in college growing up, so it's like we had a lot of similar friend groups. It just made sense Cause, honestly, there weren't a lot of options and we got along well. We'd always been friends. You know, we would date different people and then we would be on a double date with like me with my girlfriend and her with her boyfriend, and so we just knew each other well for for so long that it made sense. But then, when we got into the to the marriage, I kind of fell prey to being not as masculine as I should have been and she kind of didn't feel desired, but she was also what would you say like a recluse, because she had a demanding job. So she worked on a horse farm, she would come home late and she'd be so exhausted she didn't really have time for physical or emotional intimacy. So I tried to give her space, but then I overcorrected and so I just had my own life and she had be so exhausted she didn't really have time for physical or emotional intimacy. So I tried to give her space. But then I overcorrected and so I just had my own life and she had her own life.
Speaker 2:And then for the last three years of our marriage it was really tough. And I say all that because we there was some really big events that made being married together super tough, but we didn't throw in the towel, where most people would have just gone straight to divorce. So the last three years of our marriage I was kind of thinking about, like, is this the right thing? Should I throw in the towel? So I was so ready to be back in the dating world because those three years were so long. At the beginning of every day and the end of every day my only prevailing thought was am I doing the right thing in this marriage? Is this marriage the right decision? And so, after whatever, 365 times three is that's enough days of doing that twice a day to be over it.
Speaker 2:But I and I think this is a really powerful thing, and I'm not saying that I should be put on a pedestal or that I'm impressive, but I think we all have the capacity to choose and the power of choice is one of the most powerful things that we can ever, ironically, choose to recruit within ourselves. So I choose to let that experience make me more determined to do better, versus choosing to let that experience beat me down and become cynical and lose hope. Kind of back to what we were talking about earlier. So all that to say is, when I did start to date again, what I found in austin is, like you know, the peter pan syndrome is very prevalent.
Speaker 2:So guys like 24 to 45 are just like playing their options, trying to like not be the good version of a big kid, but like immature, like you know, churlish. And so the fact that I had been married before and I was up front with women even on a first date about the fact that I had been married before, and I was upfront with women even on a first date about the fact that I was married and that I told them that I actually appreciated that the divorce experience because it made me 10 times the man I was prior which was all true was actually an attractive thing because I wasn't afraid of commitment and they could like see that I had learned from that experience. So ironically, it actually, I think, bolstered my effectiveness in the dating world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's because you have like a commitment to actually dating. So, like post that, were you actually excited to date? Were you like, oh, I can't wait to go out and date? Or were you like nervous, were you anxious?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was nervous, for sure, because it had been so long and again, I still thought it was damaged goods, but I was also very hopeful. Damaged goods, but I was also very hopeful, like I was excited, because I'm like, after you're in a relationship but you don't really feel like it's a relationship, you're not, your needs aren't being met, you're not sure if you're doing the right thing for who you're with, that can be so draining. So when it became official, yes, there was sorrow and there was, you know, questioning, but there was also this just rush, just floodgates opened of like hope and optimism for what could be, and that made me really excited. But I was very equally nervous too, because I'm like man, I don't remember how do I flirt, what do I say, what are they going to think of me? I'm a new kid on the block in this big city. I've never lived in a city with more than 60,000 people, and then I moved to Austin, you know, and so there's a lot of elements there, but more than anything, I had excitement and optimism.
Speaker 1:How did you get over the damaged goods? Because I know there's a lot of people that are in that situation, because if you feel like you're damaged goods, I know that you're like hypersensitive to rejection as well, yeah, so how did you like move through that?
Speaker 2:I think I just owned it, I just tried to throw it up front, and maybe this is extreme. I don't know if everybody operates this way, but I find that the easiest way to deal with challenges is to be upfront about them. So that's why I always whether it's sometimes before the first date that I told the girl like hey, just went through divorce this many months ago, this is where I'm at, just wanted to let you know and, ironically, me being upfront built trust with them. So then they were more receptive to who I was. Because they're like, because you have to realize, what women typically deal with is guys skirting around tough conversations, avoiding telling the truth, avoiding vulnerability, and before they ever met me or you're on the first date, I'd let them know that, oh, this guy's not afraid to tell the truth and to own it, and that communicates so many more things and that differentiates guys almost instantly. Yeah, is that what you teach in a book?
Speaker 1:yeah, like about being up front, I think so, yeah, what is that?
Speaker 2:in there it's I call it um. You know, being radically transparent and I think and there is this delineation between transparency and vulnerability right, transparency is being able to say the truth, but vulnerability is being able to share how it made you feel and what you learned from it and owning your mistakes within that experience. And so I think you always need to be radically transparent all the time, like I don't care what kind of invasive question a woman asked you on a first date. You answer it with as much truth as you can, and I that was one of the big like the book is 13 principles, and so being that level of transparent and being unabashedly yourself is like one of the main principles and it's actually the underlying principle through through the rest of them yeah, just, it's just like authenticity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are some other principles like based on our conversation, especially in regards to like understanding what you want and like getting it, because I know that transparency thing, like that's. That's work for me, especially when I've been in a situation where I'm like I actually don't want to date for a girlfriend, I'm date to have a fun experience and if it turns to sexual, like, hey, it may turn to that, am I going to shut love down? No, but like, this is where this is where I'm at. And then, like you know, having the situation of someone be like, well, that's not for me, and then some being like, well, fuck, yeah, let's go.
Speaker 2:It's like oh yeah, what the hell Not to quote Grant Cardone? But I'm going to quote Grant.
Speaker 1:Cardone.
Speaker 2:Like you don't get what you don't ask for. I mean I'm sure other people say I think so. That really is a simple and effective principle to remember, no matter what you want as a man. But the other principle in the book that I think is really important I mean they're all important, otherwise I wouldn't have written them is viewing every experience as stepping stones. It kind of goes back to what we talked about with cynicism is, I think Guys tend to say, oh, I input this amount of time, effort and money, I should get this output.
Speaker 2:And if they don't get the output like, let's say, the girl they go on a date with doesn't really excite them, or maybe she treats them poorly, or maybe like it's a bad date, whatever it is they tend to say, oh, that was a waste of my resources, it was a waste of my time, that was a waste of my effort, that was a waste of my resources, a waste of my time, that was a waste of my effort as a waste of my money. And like, no, that's an investment. And it goes back to this idea of failing forward and the repetitions. It's like every date you get, whether it goes well or not, whether you get catfished, whether she doesn't like you, whether you never hear from her again. That's one inch closer to going the full yardstick and getting to where you want to be with the right woman I love that man.
Speaker 1:I have this thing that I like to say to myself and it's like the whole purpose of like a lot of life before we die is connection. So, regardless if I get catfished or not, or regardless if it's like, um, you know, it's just dependent on the experience, or if it's not a good match, the whole purpose of the experience, regardless of that, is connection. And I, and I weigh up for myself, I'm like, okay, this is emotional, mental, spiritual or physical, because I can be someone that I'm not like physically attracted to but I can be very mentally and emotionally attracted to and I'm like, I'm still gonna date you, I'm still gonna pay for dinner, I'm still gonna do this and we're gonna have an amazing conversation and just like, for me it's just the basking of in the feminine energy. When I've just been like grinding and crushing, like business or whatever it is, the whole time, I'm like, oh, I just needed this fucking date.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, well, and I I think there might be those listening that say, oh, saying I need a date sounds like insecure or validation, but no female presence is so underrated and and females need male presence too.
Speaker 2:So it's a mutual exchange, it's mutually beneficial, it's very symbiotic, and I just believe that a lot of guys haven't thought about it that way. But you, when you do a quick perspective shift and you and you embrace that reframe, then every experience becomes something where there's a diamond in the rough and you're just trying to find that gem, you're trying to uncover that nugget. And that's part of the gamifying aspect of well, you're like I have no idea who this person is, but I have time with them and I get to search for this nugget that they're going to give me that I would have never otherwise found and that's so valuable. And if they are dating with intention, they're doing the same thing with you. So, instead of being like me versus them, are we sussing out the right person? Is this going to be our forever person? It's more like oh, I know this investment will be worth it for both of us, even if I don't see it in the long run in this moment.
Speaker 1:I've had some people that I'm like I'm not like a hundred percent into, but then, but I'm like I'm kind of into, but then I've got like a business to get to like a four-day business retreat. There's like, oh, you should just come along to this. I was like I'm like this is fantastic and like man networking. What I learned has just been like wow, like I get to have this as well, so that, like you know, understood, like not, I wish I knew that what you were just saying before, so that when I was going on dates, I'm like, oh, like, no matter what the experience, like commit to it and actually have fun.
Speaker 1:Also, I want to know, like one of the last things I want to know about is actually like, how do you think like nice guys, like guys who, like suffer from nice guy syndrome, like how do they show up in dates and how do they fuck it up and what do you think they have to know when it comes to approaching dating? Especially know when it comes to approaching dating, especially in australia, because we got tall poppy syndrome. Nice guy syndrome is just running rampant out there. Yeah, like I know it's here as well, but I would say more so in terms of ratio over there. So I'm like I want to give those guys some tools, man real quick.
Speaker 2:What is tall poppy syndrome? I see you say that.
Speaker 1:I'm like yeah so you guys have it here as well, and it's basically it's kind of like the crab in the bucket analogy. It's like when one crab tries to come out the bucket, everyone just pulls it back down. Or like the monkey study of just like when every time the monkey went to climb the ladder to hit the banana, even though it was dangling there like it would get an electric shock. So then, so then all the um monkeys over a period of time, whatever it was, would grab the other monkeys down and like they ended up swapping every monkey in the container until eventually the whole group of monkeys like would never climb the ladder because they were conditioned to bring it down. So with tall poppy it's the same analogy. They've got like things in Japan and like sayings for it, but it's like one poppy will grow more than the others and the other poppies like poison it to bring it down. Oh wow.
Speaker 1:So it's just like a cultural experience of just when you know, when people sort of judge you or criticize you, when you're like you know, you could say something like this like I'm gonna quit my job and start a podcast and someone's like why, yeah, when you just work like everyone else?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, it's really more about projection of their own insecurity than it is about you?
Speaker 1:yeah, right, so that comes on to use it. But we just call it tall poppy syndrome. Everyone has it, yeah, but like I feel like tall poppy syndrome and nice guy syndrome and one of the same, like the most nice guys suffer that because they have like the unconscious resentment because they're too busy pleasing everyone else. Yeah, that they're like oh, don't you shine, because I don't want you to actually escape from me, because then I'm going to feel lonely, which is like my own insecurity. That's like the most common. So like, yeah, for people in that situation when it comes to like dating, because then they're like, you know, they're people, please, or they're nervous, or they don't want to like do anything out of line or accidentally fuck up and feel guilty. Like what, uh? What would you like? How would you encourage them?
Speaker 2:today. I have so many thoughts in this because I am, uh, reformed or in the process of being reformed nice guy, so I think about it a lot and I think most guys nowadays are recovering nice guys Not all, but the majority Because we grew up in an era where we were told to be chivalrous, like generally, our parents believed in chivalry and we didn't want to come off as a creep. And now, with technology and the Me Too movement and also like assaults on our testosterone, guys tend to be too nice and I'm still nice, but I'm trying to make that be more about kindness, because I think kindness is the wisdom that nice is a short-term investment, but the truth is the most kind in the long run and it's almost like a shift and a more metamorphosis into kindness. And so, when I reframe it, that oh me not avoiding tough conversations, me having the courage to be disliked by saying the truth, especially in the dating world, will take me from being a sniveling nice guy that actually does more damage, unintentionally, than I realized to someone who's willing to handle being disliked or willing to offend people or willing to ruffle the feathers, because it actually will serve me and them better in the long run, even if they can't see it or I can't see it right now. So, as you can see, there's a theme with the short-term versus a long-term investment very much like a long-term investment thinker when it comes to connections and relationships especially.
Speaker 2:And so for anybody who's out there who feels like I'm a nice guy, I feel like I don't have confidence or courage. I don't know how to navigate these things. I don't know if I have value, you, by conducting yourself with forethought and by being as truthful as possible, automatically become more important and you do more for the people that you interact with. And that reframe is just huge because when, again, you get an analysis, paralysis, when you're like what's the right thing to do? That's being a nice guy, that's so nice, right, but you're like you know what. I need to speak plainly and I need to be direct Because that's how I best serve this person, and I think men lose the fact that service is a big part of dating.
Speaker 2:But it's not in the way that you think. It's not that you do the dishes because you believe in equality. It's not that you rub her feet. It's not even that you pay for everything. It's actually that you don't sugarcoat things because people desire the truth and the more that you share the truth, the more that they trust you and the better you serve them and the better you serve yourself. And so it really does go back to service, like if, if, if I got, let's say, I was walking in here and I had shit in my teeth and you're like, oh, I'm not going to say cause I wanted to feel bad. Well then I look like a fucking idiot the whole time Cause I got shit in my teeth and it's really like maybe that's a really remedial analogy. So that's how I think about it.
Speaker 1:You know book, yeah, like. So when tell us like, how can people get involved in your community, your coaching, your book? When's it coming out? How can we get?
Speaker 2:access to all the nuts and bolts, so the book is going to be published in mid-august. I have uh, yes, I have a google form to fill out and they get this free hinge guide, which is basic. I had so much fun putting this together. It's a like a 12-page document that they download. You upload it to the AI of your choice and it helps you reframe your dating profile to be more authentic and filter out the girls you don't want and attract the ones that you do want. Wait, so wait, wait, wait. What is this? And so that's like my lead magnet. That's the free thing for signing up for the book launch. Yeah, it's valued at like 50 bucks, but offering it for free before the book comes out. And so, if anyone's on the dating apps, I'm getting so much good feedback for this and it's basically what I did over two different periods of being single, which totaled in like 12 months and 80 first dates, so I just like all of that failing forward. I was like how do I basically put this in one document and give it to AI and let AI lead me through this process of being more authentic on the apps, and it's working wonders for guys, so I would encourage people to get the free guide, sign up for the book launch, and then I mean bait states on everything you know, like YouTube, instagram, tiktok. Also, the dating edge is my community. Dm me. I'll tell people more about it if they want. I suspect it's similar to yours. It's a lot of community, group calls, resources, personal development.
Speaker 2:We talked about that maybe before the podcast and I'm going to be honest with everybody, which I'm sure you already have been. The key to dating isn't as sexy as you think it is. It's long, slow, intentional, grinding personal development in every area of life. However, like most things, the long-term investment, or the incremental progression, is the most rewarding, the most fun and the most honestly satisfying thing that I think guys can do. So stop going for the quick fix and the sexy turnaround, the 30-day glow up. It doesn't work like that. But when you start now, like two years from now, you're a different person. You didn't even realize it. I think that's the thing I'm most grateful for, um, for guys like you and me now I'm becoming this guy and guys going through the dating process. In my opinion, it is the most underrated tool for personal development that guys have well, it makes sense, right?
Speaker 1:regardless if it's business showing up on social media, sales, dating, relationship repair breakups, getting a healthy, chiseled body, actually sticking to a routine and eating healthy, the core fundamental of it, it's just all the same.
Speaker 2:It's all, it's all the same, and that should be, that should be comforting, because you're like, oh, how do I do this? How do I build the business? How do I become more confident? How do I get the right woman? How do I get a better physique? You return to the basics every time, and I think the dating world is unique because a lot of people choose to view it as different, but when you see it as being parallel to all these other realms, the steps that you take in that world actually pays off in every other realm, and I think that's something that we need to normalize.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I think it's leadership. The main thing that comes out of it for men is like masculine leadership, because there's a difference between feminine leadership and masculine leadership. And men, I feel like we want to be masculine leaders, like majority of us. We want to have that feeling. We want to feel like protectors, we want to feel like providers. We want to feel like protectors, want to feel like providers, want to feel like that we actually matter in the world and we're convicted to some sort of mission and purpose.
Speaker 1:And then a woman respects us for it and admires us for that, because that's where, like, the juice comes in. For me, I'm like I just want to be fucking admired by my partner and respected like so much. When I get that, like, oh God, it feels so good, it's so recharging, it's like this energy that comes back to crushing the world and it's like this, as you said, with that, you know, part of the magic is like we get to have that, but that comes from, I think, the dedication to being a leader. So thanks for saying that, man. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love how you wrap that up because I think it encapsulates it really well and it actually brought me back to a point, like 40 minutes ago, that you said. That I wanted to touch on is leadership doesn't mean that you are traditionally successful. It means that a woman can see that you're working towards your potential, because you working towards your potential means that you have control over your emotions, or not even control, but you have a demeanor that makes her emotionally safe. That means that you are likely to earn her financial security. It means that if you can stay in that trajectory and have fun with it, that means she's going to have fun with you and joining your life. And so it's like that's what leadership is. It's not that you get to the peak right, it's that you're having fun as you blaze the trail.
Speaker 2:And I think that's a big reframe for guys because, like, well, I'm just starting my business, I shouldn't date, dude. There's so much personal development here, and being dating and or having the right woman in your life will expedite your success elsewhere. Why wouldn't you? It's like a generator. Why wouldn't you use this multiplier to your efforts and so, but when you understand that and when you invest in that area of life. Women will follow your leadership. It doesn't matter what your bank account looks like.
Speaker 1:As you were speaking, that, like in just vision, is in Aladdin, when he's like, when they're about to go on an adventure, because he's taking jasmine on, yeah, because he gets the girl right, aladdin gets the girl. Yeah, he's a street rat. Yeah, he's a pauper he is, but he's on the magic carpet and he's pushed his hand down. He's like do you trust me? And like boom takes around an adventure.
Speaker 2:I just got chills because that's one of my favorite disney movies from growing up and that's a great analogy yeah, as you were saying, as you were saying we're done here literally, that's all I could see, which is a ladder just being like that, and I, as you were speaking, I just started getting goosebumps, bro.
Speaker 1:I was like dude, fuck, I love that bro bro, thanks for coming on the show that was fantastic.