{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":13.92,"endTime":16.59,"body":"Hello, and welcome"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":13.92,"endTime":16.59,"body":"to the Thin End of the Wedge,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":16.8,"endTime":19.71,"body":"the podcast where experts from"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":16.8,"endTime":19.71,"body":"around the world share new and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":19.71,"endTime":23.85,"body":"interesting stories about life"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":19.71,"endTime":23.85,"body":"in the ancient Middle East. My"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":23.85,"endTime":27.63,"body":"name is Jon. Each episode I talk"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":23.85,"endTime":27.63,"body":"to friends and colleagues, and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":27.63,"endTime":31.02,"body":"get them to explain their work"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":27.63,"endTime":31.02,"body":"in a way we can all understand."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":32.43,"endTime":37.08,"body":"This episode, we talk to another"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":32.43,"endTime":37.08,"body":"veteran scholar and ask them to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":37.08,"endTime":41.82,"body":"share their memories from a long"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":37.08,"endTime":41.82,"body":"and successful career. I invite"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":41.82,"endTime":45.69,"body":"them to reflect on their career."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":41.82,"endTime":45.69,"body":"How did they enter the field?"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":46.29,"endTime":49.02,"body":"What have been their key"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":46.29,"endTime":49.02,"body":"experiences and achievements?"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":49.8,"endTime":53.52,"body":"Who influenced them? What do"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":49.8,"endTime":53.52,"body":"they think about how things are"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":53.52,"endTime":56.16,"body":"now and what the future may"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":53.52,"endTime":56.16,"body":"hold?"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":57.69,"endTime":62.7,"body":"Our guest draws on six decades"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":57.69,"endTime":62.7,"body":"of experience. He has worked on"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":62.7,"endTime":66.3,"body":"sites across the Middle East, as"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":62.7,"endTime":66.3,"body":"well as teaching at university."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":67.26,"endTime":72.09,"body":"But he's best known as a museum"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":67.26,"endTime":72.09,"body":"curator. He brought order to a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":72.09,"endTime":75.81,"body":"large and complex collection,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":72.09,"endTime":75.81,"body":"shedding light on long"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":75.81,"endTime":80.82,"body":"overlooked objects. His work"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":75.81,"endTime":80.82,"body":"digesting archival resources"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":80.88,"endTime":84.96,"body":"generated insights into objects"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":80.88,"endTime":84.96,"body":"we thought we knew well, as well"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":84.96,"endTime":88.17,"body":"as revealing the activities of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":84.96,"endTime":88.17,"body":"some important characters in the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":88.2,"endTime":94.53,"body":"early history of the field. He's"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":88.2,"endTime":94.53,"body":"an innovator who has opened new"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":94.53,"endTime":95.61,"body":"areas of study."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":97.41,"endTime":102.57,"body":"Our guest is also an effective"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":97.41,"endTime":102.57,"body":"communicator. His books for a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":102.57,"endTime":106.14,"body":"popular audience are still in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":102.57,"endTime":106.14,"body":"print many years after they were"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":106.14,"endTime":111.09,"body":"written. And our standard works"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":106.14,"endTime":111.09,"body":"for students too. Long after his"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":111.09,"endTime":115.44,"body":"retirement, he remains research"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":111.09,"endTime":115.44,"body":"active, his latest book will"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":115.44,"endTime":118.8,"body":"appear soon, and is shorter race"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":115.44,"endTime":118.8,"body":"to the top of many colleagues"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":118.8,"endTime":120.12,"body":"list of things to read."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":120.93,"endTime":124.83,"body":"So get yourself a cup of tea,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":120.93,"endTime":124.83,"body":"make yourself comfortable. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":124.83,"endTime":126.48,"body":"let's meet today's guest."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":134.49,"endTime":137.58,"body":"Hello, and welcome to Thin End"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":134.49,"endTime":137.58,"body":"of the Wedge. Thank you for"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":137.58,"endTime":142.23,"body":"joining us. Could you tell us"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":137.58,"endTime":142.23,"body":"please: who are you, and what do"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":142.23,"endTime":142.77,"body":"you do?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":143.26,"endTime":147.43,"body":"My name is Julian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":143.26,"endTime":147.43,"body":"Edgeworth Reade. And I'm a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":147.46,"endTime":152.35,"body":"historian. The area I know best,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":147.46,"endTime":152.35,"body":"and which I've worked on mostly,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":152.62,"endTime":158.47,"body":"is in the middle of the ancient"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":152.62,"endTime":158.47,"body":"Near East, North Iraq. But my"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":158.53,"endTime":163.18,"body":"interests really go west to the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":158.53,"endTime":163.18,"body":"Mediterranean and East to India."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":163.36,"endTime":168.85,"body":"And I cover ancient history."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":163.36,"endTime":168.85,"body":"That's to say, mainly about 3000"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":168.85,"endTime":176.5,"body":"BC to 500 AD, but especially the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":168.85,"endTime":176.5,"body":"late Assyrian period, the period"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":176.5,"endTime":182.32,"body":"of the great Neo-Assyrian empire"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":176.5,"endTime":182.32,"body":"between about 900-600 BC."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":183.55,"endTime":185.83,"body":"How would you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":183.55,"endTime":185.83,"body":"characterise your approach to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":185.83,"endTime":187.72,"body":"the history of the ancient"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":185.83,"endTime":187.72,"body":"Middle East?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":188.56,"endTime":191.35,"body":"What I discovered"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":188.56,"endTime":191.35,"body":"when I began to study the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":191.44,"endTime":195.1,"body":"ancient Middle East was two"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":191.44,"endTime":195.1,"body":"things. One was that there were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":195.1,"endTime":200.86,"body":"enormous basic gaps in our"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":195.1,"endTime":200.86,"body":"knowledge. And so I set myself"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":200.89,"endTime":205.69,"body":"the task of filling them. I kept"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":200.89,"endTime":205.69,"body":"seeing elementary problems that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":205.69,"endTime":209.74,"body":"hadn't been properly addressed."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":205.69,"endTime":209.74,"body":"Not very significant things in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":209.74,"endTime":214.57,"body":"themselves, but ones which by"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":209.74,"endTime":214.57,"body":"accumulation were, in fact quite"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":214.57,"endTime":217.33,"body":"important. Things like"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":214.57,"endTime":217.33,"body":"chronology and geography. Where"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":217.33,"endTime":221.98,"body":"were particular places? When did"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":217.33,"endTime":221.98,"body":"things happen? And so quite a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":221.98,"endTime":226.12,"body":"lot of my career has actually"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":221.98,"endTime":226.12,"body":"been spent getting things right."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":227.29,"endTime":231.76,"body":"Apart from that, obviously, I'm"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":227.29,"endTime":231.76,"body":"really more interested in why"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":231.76,"endTime":235.81,"body":"things happen, and the larger"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":231.76,"endTime":235.81,"body":"developments. Things like the"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":235.81,"endTime":239.29,"body":"where did the"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":235.81,"endTime":239.29,"body":"Sumerians come from, if"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":239.29,"endTime":244.03,"body":"anywhere? Or how did the"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":239.29,"endTime":244.03,"body":"Urartian state come into"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":244.03,"endTime":247.81,"body":"existence? A state that suddenly"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":244.03,"endTime":247.81,"body":"sprang out of nowhere,"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":247.84,"endTime":253.06,"body":"apparently. And that kind of"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":247.84,"endTime":253.06,"body":"problem was something that I"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":253.09,"endTime":256.63,"body":"used to find myself frequently"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":253.09,"endTime":256.63,"body":"trying to address and offer a"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":256.63,"endTime":260.71,"body":"solution to. Obviously, these"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":256.63,"endTime":260.71,"body":"were rather hypothetical things,"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":260.8,"endTime":265.84,"body":"but I have no time for elaborate"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":260.8,"endTime":265.84,"body":"theoretical digressions. They"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":265.84,"endTime":267.7,"body":"seem to me a lot of waste of"},{"speaker":"Sumerian problem","startTime":265.84,"endTime":267.7,"body":"time."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":268.62,"endTime":270.81,"body":"You've also done"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":268.62,"endTime":270.81,"body":"important work on modern"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":270.81,"endTime":273.9,"body":"scholars and how they've shaped"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":270.81,"endTime":273.9,"body":"our knowledge of the ancient"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":273.9,"endTime":274.95,"body":"world, haven't you?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":276.16,"endTime":279.04,"body":"Well, of course,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":276.16,"endTime":279.04,"body":"another element of this is the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":279.04,"endTime":282.97,"body":"way in which people's approach"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":279.04,"endTime":282.97,"body":"to the study of the ancient Near"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":282.97,"endTime":288.7,"body":"East has changed over the years."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":282.97,"endTime":288.7,"body":"Basically, there have been three"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":288.73,"endTime":292.75,"body":"phases, I think, in the study of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":288.73,"endTime":292.75,"body":"the ancient Near East. One was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":292.78,"endTime":296.59,"body":"before the First World War, when"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":292.78,"endTime":296.59,"body":"there were a whole lot of huge"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":296.62,"endTime":301.3,"body":"expeditions discovering things"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":296.62,"endTime":301.3,"body":"in large quantities. And then"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":301.3,"endTime":306.43,"body":"there was a sort of process of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":301.3,"endTime":306.43,"body":"rather more methodical study in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":306.46,"endTime":313.21,"body":"the period between, let's say,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":306.46,"endTime":313.21,"body":"1920 and 1950. And after that,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":313.42,"endTime":319.0,"body":"things became more specialised."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":313.42,"endTime":319.0,"body":"So I've been looking at how"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":319.0,"endTime":323.14,"body":"people approach these problems,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":319.0,"endTime":323.14,"body":"and trying to take people's"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":323.14,"endTime":329.29,"body":"ideas and fit them into a scheme"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":323.14,"endTime":329.29,"body":"that suits my own pattern of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":329.29,"endTime":329.95,"body":"thinking."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":330.99,"endTime":333.3,"body":"I'd like to start by"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":330.99,"endTime":333.3,"body":"asking you how you became"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":333.33,"endTime":335.46,"body":"interested in the ancient Middle"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":333.33,"endTime":335.46,"body":"East?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":336.32,"endTime":341.78,"body":"Well, when I was a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":336.32,"endTime":341.78,"body":"child, my family used to like"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":341.81,"endTime":345.65,"body":"going to historical sites and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":341.81,"endTime":345.65,"body":"houses and that sort of thing."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":346.37,"endTime":350.96,"body":"And I also had a traditional"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":346.37,"endTime":350.96,"body":"classical education, with lots"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":350.96,"endTime":356.45,"body":"of Greek and Latin and ancient"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":350.96,"endTime":356.45,"body":"history. And on a couple of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":356.48,"endTime":361.4,"body":"holidays, when I was a teenager,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":356.48,"endTime":361.4,"body":"I went once to Kenya and once to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":361.4,"endTime":365.66,"body":"Cyprus. And that introduced me"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":361.4,"endTime":365.66,"body":"to the edge of the Islamic"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":365.66,"endTime":370.22,"body":"world. So I was always"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":365.66,"endTime":370.22,"body":"interested in ancient history."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":370.22,"endTime":373.91,"body":"And I thought that there seemed"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":370.22,"endTime":373.91,"body":"to be a lot that wasn't known,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":373.91,"endTime":378.35,"body":"or I didn't begin to know about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":373.91,"endTime":378.35,"body":"the Middle East, on the edge of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":378.35,"endTime":381.95,"body":"the classical world that I did"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":378.35,"endTime":381.95,"body":"know quite well. And so that's"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":381.95,"endTime":384.44,"body":"how I became interested in it in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":381.95,"endTime":384.44,"body":"the first place."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":385.31,"endTime":390.14,"body":"We used to visit ancient sites."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":385.31,"endTime":390.14,"body":"And so I was also intrigued by"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":390.14,"endTime":395.33,"body":"the archaeology of the area. So"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":390.14,"endTime":395.33,"body":"I went on from school to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":395.33,"endTime":399.92,"body":"university, still doing Greek"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":395.33,"endTime":399.92,"body":"and Latin. But I was really"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":399.92,"endTime":402.95,"body":"doing much the same sort of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":399.92,"endTime":402.95,"body":"thing at university as I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":402.95,"endTime":407.24,"body":"doing at school. So halfway"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":402.95,"endTime":407.24,"body":"through my university career, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":407.24,"endTime":411.05,"body":"began to think about becoming a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":407.24,"endTime":411.05,"body":"Middle Eastern archaeologist."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":412.1,"endTime":416.42,"body":"There wasn't any way of becoming"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":412.1,"endTime":416.42,"body":"that. There were a couple of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":416.42,"endTime":420.59,"body":"courses I could have taken. One"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":416.42,"endTime":420.59,"body":"of the courses was called"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":420.71,"endTime":424.07,"body":"archaeology and anthropology."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":420.71,"endTime":424.07,"body":"But that involved studying a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":424.07,"endTime":428.54,"body":"whole lot of flints and pottery,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":424.07,"endTime":428.54,"body":"and stuff, which I really wasn't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":428.54,"endTime":432.59,"body":"interested in. And the other"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":428.54,"endTime":432.59,"body":"course, which did cover the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":432.59,"endTime":436.22,"body":"ancient Near East--the history"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":432.59,"endTime":436.22,"body":"and archaeology of Western"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":436.22,"endTime":441.23,"body":"Asia--also required me to learn"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":436.22,"endTime":441.23,"body":"yet another dead language;"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":441.35,"endTime":444.77,"body":"something like Hebrew or"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":441.35,"endTime":444.77,"body":"Akkadian. And so I didn't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":444.77,"endTime":449.72,"body":"actually do either of those."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":444.77,"endTime":449.72,"body":"Instead, I chose to spend a year"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":449.72,"endTime":453.89,"body":"studying Arabic and Persian,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":449.72,"endTime":453.89,"body":"which I found really a most"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":453.89,"endTime":456.41,"body":"valuable introduction to the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":453.89,"endTime":456.41,"body":"ancient Near East. In later"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":456.41,"endTime":458.63,"body":"years, I was very glad that I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":456.41,"endTime":458.63,"body":"did that."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":459.93,"endTime":462.27,"body":"Having developed an"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":459.93,"endTime":462.27,"body":"interest in the ancient Middle"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":462.27,"endTime":466.41,"body":"East, and with an education"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":462.27,"endTime":466.41,"body":"focused on languages, how did"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":466.41,"endTime":469.47,"body":"you then acquire the skills and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":466.41,"endTime":469.47,"body":"experience in the archaeology of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":469.47,"endTime":470.04,"body":"the region?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":470.72,"endTime":473.72,"body":"So I did do a bit"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":470.72,"endTime":473.72,"body":"of archaeology in practice in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":473.72,"endTime":477.98,"body":"England. I went to work at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":473.72,"endTime":477.98,"body":"Corbridge with someone called"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":477.98,"endTime":481.16,"body":"John Gillam, who was a very fine"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":477.98,"endTime":481.16,"body":"archaeologist, for a short time."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":481.16,"endTime":486.56,"body":"And I also worked with Philip"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":481.16,"endTime":486.56,"body":"Rahtz at Cheddar. But that was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":486.56,"endTime":490.73,"body":"the limit of my archaeological"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":486.56,"endTime":490.73,"body":"experience before I went to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":490.76,"endTime":495.98,"body":"Iraq. So my archaeology was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":490.76,"endTime":495.98,"body":"really all learned in the field."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":496.22,"endTime":501.59,"body":"When I worked under David Oates"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":496.22,"endTime":501.59,"body":"at Nimrud and Tell Rimah. And I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":501.59,"endTime":504.29,"body":"also worked with David French in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":501.59,"endTime":504.29,"body":"Turkey."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":505.28,"endTime":508.7,"body":"How did you get onto"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":505.28,"endTime":508.7,"body":"those digs? Was it a matter of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":508.7,"endTime":510.86,"body":"being introduced to David Oates,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":508.7,"endTime":510.86,"body":"for example?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":511.86,"endTime":516.54,"body":"No, it was pure"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":511.86,"endTime":516.54,"body":"chance. When I left university,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":516.54,"endTime":520.47,"body":"I was unemployed. And there were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":516.54,"endTime":520.47,"body":"loads of jobs that were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":520.47,"endTime":525.15,"body":"available at that time. And I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":520.47,"endTime":525.15,"body":"didn't have any university fees"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":525.18,"endTime":528.78,"body":"to pay back. Because in those"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":525.18,"endTime":528.78,"body":"days, university education for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":528.84,"endTime":533.13,"body":"someone with a scholarship such"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":528.84,"endTime":533.13,"body":"as myself was free. And the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":533.13,"endTime":537.06,"body":"kinds of jobs that were being"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":533.13,"endTime":537.06,"body":"offered had really no appeal to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":537.06,"endTime":543.12,"body":"me. They were jobs that promised"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":537.06,"endTime":543.12,"body":"a good pension at the end. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":543.12,"endTime":545.64,"body":"at the age of 21, I said to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":543.12,"endTime":545.64,"body":"myself, I'm really not"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":545.64,"endTime":550.68,"body":"interested in a pension. And so"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":545.64,"endTime":550.68,"body":"I didn't take any of these"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":550.83,"endTime":557.19,"body":"offers. And I happened purely by"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":550.83,"endTime":557.19,"body":"chance, because of one person"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":557.19,"endTime":561.93,"body":"knowing another person knowing"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":557.19,"endTime":561.93,"body":"another person to learn that the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":561.96,"endTime":567.0,"body":"Nimrud expedition wanted"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":561.96,"endTime":567.0,"body":"volunteer helpers. I applied by"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":567.0,"endTime":569.37,"body":"letter, and they said, \"Come"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":567.0,"endTime":569.37,"body":"along\"."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":570.39,"endTime":573.27,"body":"The excavations at"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":570.39,"endTime":573.27,"body":"Nimrud must have been a pivotal"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":573.27,"endTime":574.92,"body":"moment in your early career."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":576.09,"endTime":579.42,"body":"Yes, as I said, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":576.09,"endTime":579.42,"body":"went to Nimrud as a volunteer"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":579.54,"endTime":584.43,"body":"completely by chance. Or almost"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":579.54,"endTime":584.43,"body":"complete. It was true to say"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":584.43,"endTime":587.91,"body":"that my Cambridge background was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":584.43,"endTime":587.91,"body":"the kind of thing that made them"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":587.91,"endTime":591.39,"body":"think I might be a suitable"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":587.91,"endTime":591.39,"body":"person to accept as a volunteer."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":592.05,"endTime":596.64,"body":"I learned about the excavation"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":592.05,"endTime":596.64,"body":"by chance, and I arrived as a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":596.64,"endTime":601.47,"body":"stranger to everything about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":596.64,"endTime":601.47,"body":"ancient Iraq. I didn't know what"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":601.47,"endTime":606.0,"body":"a ziggurat was. I didn't know"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":601.47,"endTime":606.0,"body":"what a cylinder seal was. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":606.06,"endTime":610.41,"body":"this degree of ignorance was, in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":606.06,"endTime":610.41,"body":"fact, in my mind a huge"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":610.41,"endTime":614.16,"body":"advantage, because I didn't have"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":610.41,"endTime":614.16,"body":"a whole lot of preconceptions"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":614.34,"endTime":618.81,"body":"that had been taught to me at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":614.34,"endTime":618.81,"body":"university. So I had to work out"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":618.9,"endTime":620.67,"body":"all these things for myself."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":622.16,"endTime":625.82,"body":"When I was on the dig, I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":622.16,"endTime":625.82,"body":"given various things to do. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":625.82,"endTime":630.38,"body":"at one stage, the excavation"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":625.82,"endTime":630.38,"body":"uncovered a huge pile of broken"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":630.41,"endTime":634.91,"body":"glazed bricks. There were about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":630.41,"endTime":634.91,"body":"200 of them. And they were all"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":634.91,"endTime":639.5,"body":"broken in three or four pieces."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":634.91,"endTime":639.5,"body":"And no one knew what they might"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":639.53,"endTime":642.71,"body":"originally have looked like,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":639.53,"endTime":642.71,"body":"except that they must have been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":642.74,"endTime":646.19,"body":"fastened onto a wall, because"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":642.74,"endTime":646.19,"body":"they were all there in a single"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":646.19,"endTime":650.45,"body":"pile underneath a gateway. And I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":646.19,"endTime":650.45,"body":"remember someone saying, \"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":650.45,"endTime":654.02,"body":"well, it's impossible to put"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":650.45,"endTime":654.02,"body":"them together\". I was rather"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":654.14,"endTime":658.4,"body":"disconcerted by this negative"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":654.14,"endTime":658.4,"body":"defeatist attitude. And I said,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":658.67,"endTime":663.02,"body":"\"Well, I think I can try and do"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":658.67,"endTime":663.02,"body":"something with it\". And so I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":663.02,"endTime":666.68,"body":"began putting a few of them"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":663.02,"endTime":666.68,"body":"together. And the director of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":666.68,"endTime":670.58,"body":"the dig, David Oates, said to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":666.68,"endTime":670.58,"body":"me, \"Well, why don't you spend a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":670.58,"endTime":674.54,"body":"fortnight doing that and seeing"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":670.58,"endTime":674.54,"body":"if you actually can reconstruct"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":674.57,"endTime":678.86,"body":"this panel?\" So that's what I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":674.57,"endTime":678.86,"body":"did. And so I sat there. It was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":678.86,"endTime":684.02,"body":"raining, and sometimes it was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":678.86,"endTime":684.02,"body":"sunny. I had a great vat of glue"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":684.17,"endTime":687.47,"body":"that helped me put them"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":684.17,"endTime":687.47,"body":"together. After a fortnight,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":687.47,"endTime":691.82,"body":"David came back and said, \"Well,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":687.47,"endTime":691.82,"body":"how's it going?\" And I was then"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":691.82,"endTime":696.62,"body":"able to demonstrate to him, that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":691.82,"endTime":696.62,"body":"there were enough pieces to show"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":696.68,"endTime":701.27,"body":"exactly how the panel worked."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":696.68,"endTime":701.27,"body":"And that in theory, it could all"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":701.27,"endTime":702.26,"body":"be put together."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":703.43,"endTime":707.39,"body":"At that stage, he had to decide"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":703.43,"endTime":707.39,"body":"what to do with them. And he"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":707.48,"endTime":711.35,"body":"decided it was worth actually"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":707.48,"endTime":711.35,"body":"collecting them all and sending"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":711.35,"endTime":715.46,"body":"them to Baghdad. So that they"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":711.35,"endTime":715.46,"body":"could be put together as a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":715.46,"endTime":720.95,"body":"single panel in the Iraq Museum."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":715.46,"endTime":720.95,"body":"It was fortuitous that at that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":720.95,"endTime":726.44,"body":"time, the Iraq Museum was about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":720.95,"endTime":726.44,"body":"to move to new premises. The old"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":726.44,"endTime":731.75,"body":"museum that had been there since"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":726.44,"endTime":731.75,"body":"1926, was about to be closed."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":732.14,"endTime":735.92,"body":"And there was a lovely, great"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":732.14,"endTime":735.92,"body":"big new museum, which had to be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":735.92,"endTime":740.63,"body":"filled. So there was space for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":735.92,"endTime":740.63,"body":"my panel to go up there, where"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":740.63,"endTime":745.01,"body":"it indeed still stands. But of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":740.63,"endTime":745.01,"body":"course, I'd only shown that the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":745.01,"endTime":747.98,"body":"things could be put together in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":745.01,"endTime":747.98,"body":"theory that there seemed to be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":747.98,"endTime":752.48,"body":"enough of them. And so what"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":747.98,"endTime":752.48,"body":"happened after the dig is that I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":752.48,"endTime":758.18,"body":"had no personal commitments at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":752.48,"endTime":758.18,"body":"all. And so I was kept on. And I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":758.18,"endTime":762.38,"body":"spent two or three months in the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":758.18,"endTime":762.38,"body":"Iraq Museum with all these"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":762.38,"endTime":767.66,"body":"broken bricks in a large room."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":762.38,"endTime":767.66,"body":"And I laid them all out on the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":767.66,"endTime":773.18,"body":"floor, and showed how they all"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":767.66,"endTime":773.18,"body":"fitted together. And then the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":773.21,"endTime":776.12,"body":"Iraqi conservators did the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":773.21,"endTime":776.12,"body":"actual work of gluing them"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":776.12,"endTime":778.52,"body":"together and putting them up in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":776.12,"endTime":778.52,"body":"the new display."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":779.69,"endTime":782.6,"body":"I'd also been told, \"Well,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":779.69,"endTime":782.6,"body":"you'll need to write this up\"."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":782.93,"endTime":786.71,"body":"And so I wrote an article"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":782.93,"endTime":786.71,"body":"describing the bricks and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":786.74,"endTime":790.58,"body":"discussing elements of them and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":786.74,"endTime":790.58,"body":"finding an interesting parallel"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":790.67,"endTime":793.85,"body":"at another site and that kind of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":790.67,"endTime":793.85,"body":"thing. And so I sent this"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":793.85,"endTime":798.08,"body":"article off, together with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":793.85,"endTime":798.08,"body":"drawings of the reconstructed"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":798.08,"endTime":802.52,"body":"panel. That seems to have been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":798.08,"endTime":802.52,"body":"quite a success. And because I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":802.52,"endTime":806.81,"body":"was there in Baghdad for three"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":802.52,"endTime":806.81,"body":"months on my own, basically. I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":806.81,"endTime":809.87,"body":"was staying in the British"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":806.81,"endTime":809.87,"body":"School of archaeology in Iraq,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":809.9,"endTime":814.55,"body":"which had a large old Ottoman"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":809.9,"endTime":814.55,"body":"house on the Tigris. And there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":814.55,"endTime":817.85,"body":"was a man who cooked and looked"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":814.55,"endTime":817.85,"body":"after the house, and I was the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":817.85,"endTime":823.04,"body":"only other resident. But what it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":817.85,"endTime":823.04,"body":"also had was a library. And so I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":823.04,"endTime":826.55,"body":"spent those two or three months,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":823.04,"endTime":826.55,"body":"in the evenings, I read the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":826.55,"endTime":830.99,"body":"library. And it was library of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":826.55,"endTime":830.99,"body":"the ancient Near East. And so I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":830.99,"endTime":833.87,"body":"discovered a whole lot of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":830.99,"endTime":833.87,"body":"things, which basically gave me"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":833.93,"endTime":837.23,"body":"a university education on the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":833.93,"endTime":837.23,"body":"ancient Near East."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":838.86,"endTime":842.49,"body":"Being at Nimrud, and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":838.86,"endTime":842.49,"body":"in Baghdad and the Iraq Museum,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":842.82,"endTime":846.36,"body":"you must have met some of the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":842.82,"endTime":846.36,"body":"major characters. Could you say"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":846.36,"endTime":849.54,"body":"something about the scholarly"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":846.36,"endTime":849.54,"body":"community there at that time?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":851.34,"endTime":854.01,"body":"Well, that was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":851.34,"endTime":854.01,"body":"another important part of my"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":854.04,"endTime":859.17,"body":"academic education. Because the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":854.04,"endTime":859.17,"body":"Iraqis who were responsible for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":859.17,"endTime":863.1,"body":"the archaeology at the time, it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":859.17,"endTime":863.1,"body":"was the first generation of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":863.22,"endTime":867.09,"body":"Iraqi archaeologists and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":863.22,"endTime":867.09,"body":"scholars. And they were hugely"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":867.09,"endTime":871.38,"body":"welcoming and helpful. The"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":867.09,"endTime":871.38,"body":"person that knew everything was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":871.41,"endTime":876.39,"body":"Fuad Safar, who had excavated at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":871.41,"endTime":876.39,"body":"Eridu. Another person that knew"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":876.45,"endTime":879.51,"body":"everything was Muhammad Ali"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":876.45,"endTime":879.51,"body":"Mustafa, who was busy"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":879.54,"endTime":883.74,"body":"reconstructing the ruins of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":879.54,"endTime":883.74,"body":"great Parthian city of Hatra."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":884.37,"endTime":887.1,"body":"And there was also an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":884.37,"endTime":887.1,"body":"assyriologst in charge of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":887.1,"endTime":891.24,"body":"department, called Taha Baqir."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":887.1,"endTime":891.24,"body":"And he, I think it was, who"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":891.27,"endTime":896.16,"body":"published the quite famous"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":891.27,"endTime":896.16,"body":"tablet, which has a drawing on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":896.16,"endTime":899.94,"body":"it, showing that the Old"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":896.16,"endTime":899.94,"body":"Babylonians were familiar with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":899.94,"endTime":903.03,"body":"something rather than like the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":899.94,"endTime":903.03,"body":"famous Pythagoras theorem."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":903.51,"endTime":906.63,"body":"So all these people were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":903.51,"endTime":906.63,"body":"extremely helpful and friendly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":906.63,"endTime":910.86,"body":"to me. And then what used to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":906.63,"endTime":910.86,"body":"happen is that the British"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":910.86,"endTime":917.61,"body":"school acted as a sort of hotel,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":910.86,"endTime":917.61,"body":"as well as a base for British"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":917.61,"endTime":922.92,"body":"archaeologists and scholars. So"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":917.61,"endTime":922.92,"body":"people passing through and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":922.92,"endTime":928.05,"body":"staying at the School came from"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":922.92,"endTime":928.05,"body":"the United States, France,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":928.05,"endTime":932.37,"body":"Italy. And many of them were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":928.05,"endTime":932.37,"body":"people just visiting Iraq;"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":932.37,"endTime":937.56,"body":"people who are working in Iran,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":932.37,"endTime":937.56,"body":"Afghanistan, Turkey, Syria;"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":938.01,"endTime":941.19,"body":"people who wanted to visit Iraq"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":938.01,"endTime":941.19,"body":"and archaeologists of that kind."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":941.7,"endTime":947.7,"body":"So there was a constant turnover"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":941.7,"endTime":947.7,"body":"of interesting people. And the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":947.7,"endTime":951.27,"body":"ones that I met then, some of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":947.7,"endTime":951.27,"body":"them have remained friends for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":951.27,"endTime":955.95,"body":"life. People who are still"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":951.27,"endTime":955.95,"body":"active, I think of Mac Gibson in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":955.95,"endTime":961.29,"body":"Chicago and Mogens Larsen in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":955.95,"endTime":961.29,"body":"Copenhagen. And there are also"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":961.32,"endTime":966.96,"body":"many others who are no longer"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":961.32,"endTime":966.96,"body":"with us. And so the conversation"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":967.02,"endTime":970.98,"body":"at the dinner table was always"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":967.02,"endTime":970.98,"body":"concerned with antiquity and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":970.98,"endTime":976.05,"body":"archaeology and people and so"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":970.98,"endTime":976.05,"body":"forth. So I learned an enormous"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":976.05,"endTime":977.67,"body":"amount from those people at the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":976.05,"endTime":977.67,"body":"time."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":979.07,"endTime":981.38,"body":"As well as the big"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":979.07,"endTime":981.38,"body":"names, there were also some"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":981.38,"endTime":984.47,"body":"younger scholars, the next"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":981.38,"endTime":984.47,"body":"generation of Iraqis, for"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":984.47,"endTime":986.36,"body":"example. How about them?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":987.59,"endTime":989.84,"body":"Well, the next"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":987.59,"endTime":989.84,"body":"generation--people who were a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":989.84,"endTime":995.69,"body":"bit older than myself--were also"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":989.84,"endTime":995.69,"body":"extremely friendly. My closest"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":995.69,"endTime":999.8,"body":"friend, perhaps was Behnam Abu"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":995.69,"endTime":999.8,"body":"Souf, who made some very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":999.8,"endTime":1003.85,"body":"important discoveries about the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":999.8,"endTime":1003.85,"body":"earliest prehistoric sites in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1003.85,"endTime":1009.58,"body":"Iraq. And there was Tariq"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1003.85,"endTime":1009.58,"body":"Madhloum, who had done a whole"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1009.58,"endTime":1012.79,"body":"lot of work protecting the site"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1009.58,"endTime":1012.79,"body":"of Nineveh from modern"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1012.79,"endTime":1016.63,"body":"development. And who was in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1012.79,"endTime":1016.63,"body":"fact, the first person to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1016.72,"endTime":1020.29,"body":"re-excavate Sennacherib's palace"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1016.72,"endTime":1020.29,"body":"at Nineveh, which had been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1020.29,"endTime":1027.55,"body":"excavated first by Layard in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1020.29,"endTime":1027.55,"body":"1850. And he also excavated one"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1027.55,"endTime":1032.47,"body":"of the gates of Nineveh and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1027.55,"endTime":1032.47,"body":"reconstructed it. And these"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1032.47,"endTime":1037.78,"body":"people were establishing the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1032.47,"endTime":1037.78,"body":"antiquity of Iraq as something"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1037.78,"endTime":1043.33,"body":"which was visible. They were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1037.78,"endTime":1043.33,"body":"demonstrating that these things"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1043.36,"endTime":1047.68,"body":"which had just been mounds ..."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1043.36,"endTime":1047.68,"body":"ancient mounds ... were really"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1047.95,"endTime":1053.74,"body":"town walls, and large, important"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1047.95,"endTime":1053.74,"body":"structures, containing things"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1053.74,"endTime":1058.51,"body":"like carved wall panels, and so"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1053.74,"endTime":1058.51,"body":"forth. They were transforming"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1058.54,"endTime":1063.4,"body":"the antiquity of Iraq to make it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1058.54,"endTime":1063.4,"body":"relevant to the Iraqi heritage."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1064.97,"endTime":1067.19,"body":"So at this point,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1064.97,"endTime":1067.19,"body":"you have archaeological"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1067.19,"endTime":1071.12,"body":"experience, and you've started"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1067.19,"endTime":1071.12,"body":"to publish research. But before"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1071.12,"endTime":1073.04,"body":"long, you started your PhD."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1074.59,"endTime":1078.49,"body":"What David Oates"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1074.59,"endTime":1078.49,"body":"told me was that if I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1078.49,"endTime":1081.88,"body":"stay in Middle Eastern"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1078.49,"endTime":1081.88,"body":"archaeology, I really had to get"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1081.91,"endTime":1087.52,"body":"a PhD. And he suggested that a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1081.91,"endTime":1087.52,"body":"suitable subject might be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1087.82,"endTime":1094.12,"body":"Assyrian sculptures. And so I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1087.82,"endTime":1094.12,"body":"had, by good fortune, discovered"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1094.12,"endTime":1097.72,"body":"some drawings of Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1094.12,"endTime":1097.72,"body":"sculptures in a library in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1097.72,"endTime":1100.69,"body":"London, because most of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1097.72,"endTime":1100.69,"body":"drawings were in the British"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1100.69,"endTime":1105.4,"body":"Museum. That was extremely"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1100.69,"endTime":1105.4,"body":"helpful to me, because I could"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1105.4,"endTime":1109.63,"body":"then reach certain conclusions"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1105.4,"endTime":1109.63,"body":"about the evolution of Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1109.63,"endTime":1114.46,"body":"sculpture, which hadn't been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1109.63,"endTime":1114.46,"body":"possible before these drawings"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1114.52,"endTime":1119.62,"body":"were discovered. Over the next"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1114.52,"endTime":1119.62,"body":"few years, while I was working"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1119.65,"endTime":1123.58,"body":"repeatedly on excavations in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1119.65,"endTime":1123.58,"body":"Iraq, and getting various sort"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1123.58,"endTime":1126.58,"body":"of small fellowships and stuff"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1123.58,"endTime":1126.58,"body":"that enabled me to continue to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1126.58,"endTime":1133.06,"body":"do so, I was also working on my"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1126.58,"endTime":1133.06,"body":"PhD, which covered the Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1133.06,"endTime":1138.4,"body":"public buildings and the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1133.06,"endTime":1138.4,"body":"decoration. In that way, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1138.43,"endTime":1143.2,"body":"became familiar with that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1138.43,"endTime":1143.2,"body":"particular period of Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1143.2,"endTime":1143.74,"body":"history."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1145.48,"endTime":1148.24,"body":"Your approach has"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1145.48,"endTime":1148.24,"body":"always taken in cities as part"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1148.24,"endTime":1151.81,"body":"of landscapes. And through that"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1148.24,"endTime":1151.81,"body":"you developed an interest in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1151.81,"endTime":1153.31,"body":"canal systems, didn't you?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1154.66,"endTime":1157.87,"body":"Yes, well, there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1154.66,"endTime":1157.87,"body":"were these marvelous canals. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1157.99,"endTime":1161.89,"body":"it was very difficult to visit"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1157.99,"endTime":1161.89,"body":"them. They were quite near the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1161.89,"endTime":1166.09,"body":"city of Nineveh, modern Mosul,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1161.89,"endTime":1166.09,"body":"which was near Nimrud. And we"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1166.12,"endTime":1170.86,"body":"could go there quite easily. But"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1166.12,"endTime":1170.86,"body":"there was a persistent civil war"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1170.86,"endTime":1175.87,"body":"going on between the government"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1170.86,"endTime":1175.87,"body":"and the Kurdish population at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1175.87,"endTime":1179.47,"body":"that time. And it was very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1175.87,"endTime":1179.47,"body":"difficult to visit areas on the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1179.56,"endTime":1185.23,"body":"fringe between Arab and Kurdish"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1179.56,"endTime":1185.23,"body":"settlements. And the canals came"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1185.23,"endTime":1188.83,"body":"out of the hills into the plains"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1185.23,"endTime":1188.83,"body":"and they were in this sort of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1188.83,"endTime":1189.97,"body":"boundary area."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1191.04,"endTime":1195.3,"body":"However, it was clear how"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1191.04,"endTime":1195.3,"body":"interesting they were, and one"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1195.3,"endTime":1198.99,"body":"could occasionally visit some of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1195.3,"endTime":1198.99,"body":"them. A lot of these canals were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1198.99,"endTime":1202.35,"body":"also provided with sculptures,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1198.99,"endTime":1202.35,"body":"which had been carved to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1202.35,"endTime":1206.85,"body":"celebrate the achievement of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1202.35,"endTime":1206.85,"body":"completing them. At one stage, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1206.85,"endTime":1211.17,"body":"managed to discover a new set of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1206.85,"endTime":1211.17,"body":"sculptures along a new canal."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1211.92,"endTime":1216.51,"body":"That was a bit of a triumph and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1211.92,"endTime":1216.51,"body":"helped me establish how the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1216.54,"endTime":1221.58,"body":"canal system had been operating."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1216.54,"endTime":1221.58,"body":"Fortunately, in recent years,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1221.58,"endTime":1225.21,"body":"it's become much easier for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1221.58,"endTime":1225.21,"body":"people to work there. And the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1225.21,"endTime":1229.2,"body":"information from things like"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1225.21,"endTime":1229.2,"body":"satellite photography, quite"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1229.2,"endTime":1232.11,"body":"apart from work on the ground,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1229.2,"endTime":1232.11,"body":"has vastly increased our"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1232.11,"endTime":1236.88,"body":"knowledge of this area. And some"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1232.11,"endTime":1236.88,"body":"of my original ideas have become"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1236.91,"endTime":1240.42,"body":"somewhat outmoded. But it's"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1236.91,"endTime":1240.42,"body":"still possible to make"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1240.48,"endTime":1242.19,"body":"interesting new discoveries."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1243.84,"endTime":1246.03,"body":"With all your"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1243.84,"endTime":1246.03,"body":"experience and education in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1246.03,"endTime":1250.17,"body":"hand, in the 1970s, you were"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1246.03,"endTime":1250.17,"body":"successful in getting a long"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1250.17,"endTime":1251.64,"body":"term position in the field."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1253.62,"endTime":1256.59,"body":"Yes, there was a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1253.62,"endTime":1256.59,"body":"problem that I hadn't been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1256.59,"endTime":1261.27,"body":"working on the history of Iraq"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1256.59,"endTime":1261.27,"body":"very long before I realised that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1261.27,"endTime":1265.86,"body":"I wanted a job at the British"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1261.27,"endTime":1265.86,"body":"Museum. But unfortunately, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1265.86,"endTime":1269.64,"body":"person then in charge of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1265.86,"endTime":1269.64,"body":"British Museum had a rather low"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1269.64,"endTime":1275.58,"body":"opinion of me. And I had a very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1269.64,"endTime":1275.58,"body":"low opinion of him. And the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1275.64,"endTime":1278.91,"body":"result was that I couldn't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1275.64,"endTime":1278.91,"body":"attempt to go and work there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1279.09,"endTime":1283.95,"body":"before he retired. But I did in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1279.09,"endTime":1283.95,"body":"fact, manage to get an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1283.95,"endTime":1288.99,"body":"appointment after his retirement"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1283.95,"endTime":1288.99,"body":"in 1975. Up to that time, I'd"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1288.99,"endTime":1292.44,"body":"lived on various fellowships and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1288.99,"endTime":1292.44,"body":"so forth. At one stage, there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1292.44,"endTime":1295.47,"body":"were some small grants attached"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1292.44,"endTime":1295.47,"body":"to the University of Cambridge,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1295.86,"endTime":1299.94,"body":"or at the end, I was the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1295.86,"endTime":1299.94,"body":"so-called \"Wainwright Fellow in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1300.09,"endTime":1302.49,"body":"Ancient Near Eastern"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1300.09,"endTime":1302.49,"body":"Archaeology\" at the University"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1302.49,"endTime":1307.47,"body":"of Oxford. But none of these"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1302.49,"endTime":1307.47,"body":"were reliable long term jobs. So"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1307.47,"endTime":1311.67,"body":"I didn't actually have a proper"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1307.47,"endTime":1311.67,"body":"job until I was about 35, or 36."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1312.96,"endTime":1315.75,"body":"In your position at"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1312.96,"endTime":1315.75,"body":"the museum, you must have met"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1315.75,"endTime":1319.14,"body":"many more colleagues. Could you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1315.75,"endTime":1319.14,"body":"say something about that,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1319.14,"endTime":1322.41,"body":"please? And maybe some of the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1319.14,"endTime":1322.41,"body":"individuals who had an impact on"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1322.41,"endTime":1322.62,"body":"you?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1324.31,"endTime":1327.64,"body":"Well, the British"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1324.31,"endTime":1327.64,"body":"Museum, because of its wonderful"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1327.64,"endTime":1330.97,"body":"collection of cuneiform"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1327.64,"endTime":1330.97,"body":"tablets--and indeed, it's"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1331.0,"endTime":1333.34,"body":"wonderful other collections of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1331.0,"endTime":1333.34,"body":"archaeological"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1334.69,"endTime":1337.45,"body":"objects--functioned a bit like"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1334.69,"endTime":1337.45,"body":"the British School of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1337.45,"endTime":1344.14,"body":"Archaeology in Iraq, in that all"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1337.45,"endTime":1344.14,"body":"the experts tended to visit. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1344.17,"endTime":1348.91,"body":"there was the students room in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1344.17,"endTime":1348.91,"body":"the museum, where people read"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1348.94,"endTime":1352.6,"body":"tablets. And we often used to go"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1348.94,"endTime":1352.6,"body":"out to lunch together and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1352.6,"endTime":1356.68,"body":"discuss current problems, events"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1352.6,"endTime":1356.68,"body":"and developments. And so that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1356.68,"endTime":1361.42,"body":"was a continuing education for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1356.68,"endTime":1361.42,"body":"me. There was one particular"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1361.42,"endTime":1364.57,"body":"person, Wilfred Lambert, one of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1361.42,"endTime":1364.57,"body":"the finest Assyriological"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1364.84,"endTime":1368.53,"body":"professors, who used to come"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1364.84,"endTime":1368.53,"body":"down from Birmingham every"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1368.53,"endTime":1373.33,"body":"Thursday. And people used to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1368.53,"endTime":1373.33,"body":"arrange especially to come in on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1373.33,"endTime":1377.38,"body":"Thursday, so that they could"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1373.33,"endTime":1377.38,"body":"consult Lambert about particular"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1377.41,"endTime":1380.56,"body":"points of interest. Of course,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1377.41,"endTime":1380.56,"body":"they were working in the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1380.56,"endTime":1383.35,"body":"students room, but they used to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1380.56,"endTime":1383.35,"body":"go out for lunch."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1384.19,"endTime":1388.36,"body":"Other people? Well, another"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1384.19,"endTime":1388.36,"body":"opportunity, which working at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1388.36,"endTime":1392.11,"body":"the museum gave me was to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1388.36,"endTime":1392.11,"body":"represent the museum at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1392.11,"endTime":1396.34,"body":"conferences abroad. That also"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1392.11,"endTime":1396.34,"body":"enabled me to meet lots of other"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1396.34,"endTime":1400.63,"body":"people and expand my interests."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1396.34,"endTime":1400.63,"body":"And people that I recall, in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1400.63,"endTime":1405.64,"body":"particular, that I met at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1400.63,"endTime":1405.64,"body":"conferences, were Peter"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1405.64,"endTime":1411.73,"body":"Calmeyer, the great expert on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1405.64,"endTime":1411.73,"body":"early Persian iconography, who"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1411.79,"endTime":1417.88,"body":"became a good friend. And Hayim"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1411.79,"endTime":1417.88,"body":"Tadmor, the Israeli expert,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1417.94,"endTime":1422.98,"body":"especially on the history of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1417.94,"endTime":1422.98,"body":"Tiglath-Pileser. And I recall,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1423.13,"endTime":1427.93,"body":"our friendship was basically"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1423.13,"endTime":1427.93,"body":"founded on a very long walk that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1427.93,"endTime":1432.22,"body":"we had together for about two"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1427.93,"endTime":1432.22,"body":"hours in Berlin during one"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1432.22,"endTime":1435.64,"body":"conference, when he and I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1432.22,"endTime":1435.64,"body":"discussed the particular"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1435.64,"endTime":1441.94,"body":"location of places named in some"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1435.64,"endTime":1441.94,"body":"of the Assyrian animals; place"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1441.94,"endTime":1445.03,"body":"names, which traditionally had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1441.94,"endTime":1445.03,"body":"been moving all over the place"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1445.03,"endTime":1448.54,"body":"because no one could work out"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1445.03,"endTime":1448.54,"body":"where they were. And he and I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1448.57,"endTime":1449.89,"body":"were trying to sort it out."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1450.89,"endTime":1454.64,"body":"Another person who I was amused"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1450.89,"endTime":1454.64,"body":"to meet in retrospect, he was a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1454.64,"endTime":1458.42,"body":"very imposing character, much"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1454.64,"endTime":1458.42,"body":"feared and disliked by some"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1458.93,"endTime":1462.77,"body":"people--Wolfram von Soden, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1458.93,"endTime":1462.77,"body":"author of the great Akkadian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1462.77,"endTime":1468.02,"body":"dictionary. And I was introduced"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1462.77,"endTime":1468.02,"body":"to him about 1970 at one of my"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1468.02,"endTime":1472.13,"body":"first conferences; actually,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1468.02,"endTime":1472.13,"body":"before I joined the BM. And he"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1472.13,"endTime":1476.27,"body":"asked what I was studying. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1472.13,"endTime":1476.27,"body":"uh, no, he didn't ask what I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1476.27,"endTime":1480.71,"body":"studying. I was introduced to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1476.27,"endTime":1480.71,"body":"him as a student. And he didn't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1480.71,"endTime":1484.37,"body":"say, \"What are you studying?\" He"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1480.71,"endTime":1484.37,"body":"said, \"Who is teaching you?\""},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1485.54,"endTime":1488.9,"body":"Well, this was a bit odd to me,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1485.54,"endTime":1488.9,"body":"because the person teaching me"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1488.9,"endTime":1492.83,"body":"in theory was a very good woman"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1488.9,"endTime":1492.83,"body":"called Margaret Munn Rankin, who"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1492.83,"endTime":1496.7,"body":"actually I hardly ever saw,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1492.83,"endTime":1496.7,"body":"because she was in Cambridge,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1497.06,"endTime":1500.9,"body":"and I was in Baghdad. And she"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1497.06,"endTime":1500.9,"body":"had to report to the Cambridge"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1500.93,"endTime":1504.8,"body":"authorities on the progress of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1500.93,"endTime":1504.8,"body":"my dissertation, which she"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1504.83,"endTime":1509.0,"body":"loyally did for many years."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1504.83,"endTime":1509.0,"body":"Every six months or so I used to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1509.0,"endTime":1511.94,"body":"get a letter from her saying,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1509.0,"endTime":1511.94,"body":"\"Dear Julian, are you making"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1511.97,"endTime":1515.18,"body":"progress? I've got to make a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1511.97,"endTime":1515.18,"body":"report on your progress\". And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1515.18,"endTime":1518.3,"body":"she managed to go on making"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1515.18,"endTime":1518.3,"body":"these reports very kindly for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1518.3,"endTime":1521.9,"body":"years, until my thesis was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1518.3,"endTime":1521.9,"body":"finally finished. But she didn't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1521.96,"endTime":1523.76,"body":"actually really teach me much."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1523.97,"endTime":1529.16,"body":"But von Soden asked me who was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1523.97,"endTime":1529.16,"body":"teaching me, whereas I thought"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1529.19,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"the appropriate question of a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1529.19,"endTime":1532.58,"body":"student was, \"What are you"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1537.65,"body":"studying?\" However, this was, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1532.58,"endTime":1537.65,"body":"think, an example of the old"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1537.68,"endTime":1542.03,"body":"medieval system whereby the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1537.68,"endTime":1542.03,"body":"student has a teacher, which I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1542.03,"endTime":1545.39,"body":"think is much more strongly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1542.03,"endTime":1545.39,"body":"embedded in the universities of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1545.48,"endTime":1550.76,"body":"continental Europe than it is in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1545.48,"endTime":1550.76,"body":"the United Kingdom. So I said,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1550.79,"endTime":1554.39,"body":"my teacher was Margaret Munn"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1550.79,"endTime":1554.39,"body":"Rankin, and he looked slightly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1554.39,"endTime":1558.17,"body":"surprised and didn't say"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1554.39,"endTime":1558.17,"body":"anything more. But I had a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1558.17,"endTime":1562.67,"body":"rather nice experience with von"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1558.17,"endTime":1562.67,"body":"Soden, which was that I wrote an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1562.67,"endTime":1566.66,"body":"article for his journal, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1562.67,"endTime":1566.66,"body":"Zeitschrift fuer Assyriologie,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1567.26,"endTime":1571.82,"body":"which he printed. And for some"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1567.26,"endTime":1571.82,"body":"reason, it didn't appear in the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1571.82,"endTime":1576.56,"body":"list of contents. And so,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1571.82,"endTime":1576.56,"body":"subsequently, I received a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1576.92,"endTime":1581.75,"body":"profoundly apologetic postcard"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1576.92,"endTime":1581.75,"body":"from him. And I think I must be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1581.75,"endTime":1584.99,"body":"one of the very few people to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1581.75,"endTime":1584.99,"body":"whom von Soden ever apologised."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1586.49,"endTime":1588.59,"body":"I'd like to come"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1586.49,"endTime":1588.59,"body":"back to Nimrud, if we could."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1589.19,"endTime":1592.58,"body":"We're familiar with the famous"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1589.19,"endTime":1592.58,"body":"finds, the big names, and with"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1592.58,"endTime":1596.96,"body":"some of the mythology around the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1592.58,"endTime":1596.96,"body":"excavations. What was it really"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1596.96,"endTime":1600.56,"body":"like to work on those"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1596.96,"endTime":1600.56,"body":"excavations in the 1960s?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1602.03,"endTime":1605.45,"body":"I was talking"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1602.03,"endTime":1605.45,"body":"about the British School, and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1605.45,"endTime":1608.93,"body":"indeed the British Museum, as"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1605.45,"endTime":1608.93,"body":"places where I learned a lot"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1608.93,"endTime":1613.43,"body":"from people passing through."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1608.93,"endTime":1613.43,"body":"Nimrud was a bit like that, in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1613.43,"endTime":1617.24,"body":"that respect, in that there was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1613.43,"endTime":1617.24,"body":"a whole range of people who used"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1617.24,"endTime":1620.12,"body":"to come to the excavation, and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1617.24,"endTime":1620.12,"body":"the conversation around the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1620.12,"endTime":1624.14,"body":"dinner table was always about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1620.12,"endTime":1624.14,"body":"ancient history, and so forth."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1624.53,"endTime":1627.14,"body":"And that was hugely educational"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1624.53,"endTime":1627.14,"body":"for me."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1627.51,"endTime":1632.16,"body":"But Nimrud itself is, or was,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1627.51,"endTime":1632.16,"body":"one of the most beautiful sites"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1632.16,"endTime":1636.87,"body":"I know. We used to go there in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1632.16,"endTime":1636.87,"body":"the spring. This was about the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1636.87,"endTime":1642.24,"body":"time of the first rains after a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1636.87,"endTime":1642.24,"body":"dry winter. And the site is"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1642.24,"endTime":1646.38,"body":"rather impressively placed. It's"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1642.24,"endTime":1646.38,"body":"got a view to the west, to the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1646.38,"endTime":1650.91,"body":"sunset across the Tigris River."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1646.38,"endTime":1650.91,"body":"And to the north, you can see"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1650.91,"endTime":1655.44,"body":"the snow on the mountains of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1650.91,"endTime":1655.44,"body":"Kurdistan. And it's surrounded"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1655.53,"endTime":1661.92,"body":"after the first rains by a huge"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1655.53,"endTime":1661.92,"body":"expanse of greenery. Not only"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1661.92,"endTime":1667.38,"body":"crops from the fields, but also"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1661.92,"endTime":1667.38,"body":"wildflowers. And the wildflowers"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1667.38,"endTime":1671.88,"body":"used to change all the time. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1667.38,"endTime":1671.88,"body":"there would be birds and bees"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1671.88,"endTime":1676.02,"body":"and all that stuff. And so it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1671.88,"endTime":1676.02,"body":"was a beautiful place to work in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1676.02,"endTime":1679.83,"body":"that respect. Sometimes it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1676.02,"endTime":1679.83,"body":"rained ferociously. There was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1679.83,"endTime":1683.94,"body":"that smell of damp, that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1679.83,"endTime":1683.94,"body":"permeated the tents from time to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1683.94,"endTime":1687.93,"body":"time. And then the sun would"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1683.94,"endTime":1687.93,"body":"come out, the brilliant Iraqi"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1687.93,"endTime":1692.4,"body":"sun. And in the evenings,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1687.93,"endTime":1692.4,"body":"sometimes we would sit on a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1692.4,"endTime":1696.21,"body":"terrace in front of the house"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1692.4,"endTime":1696.21,"body":"looking towards the setting sun."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1696.75,"endTime":1700.38,"body":"And I recall on one occasion,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1696.75,"endTime":1700.38,"body":"one of my friends, Nicholas"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1700.38,"endTime":1704.07,"body":"Kindersley, someone who was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1700.38,"endTime":1704.07,"body":"wonderful at looking after the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1704.07,"endTime":1708.39,"body":"cars. He said, \"Oh, look, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1704.07,"endTime":1708.39,"body":"think that's a comet\". And it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1708.39,"endTime":1712.26,"body":"was only comet I'd ever seen. It"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1708.39,"endTime":1712.26,"body":"was a very fine comet. And I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1712.26,"endTime":1716.22,"body":"later looked it up. And it did"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1712.26,"endTime":1716.22,"body":"indeed pass by just about that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1716.25,"endTime":1716.7,"body":"time."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1718.11,"endTime":1723.96,"body":"We used to live in tents, with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1718.11,"endTime":1723.96,"body":"two beds to a tent. So sometimes"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1723.96,"endTime":1728.67,"body":"I shared, sometimes I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1723.96,"endTime":1728.67,"body":"single. And we used to live in a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1728.67,"endTime":1732.27,"body":"mud brick house, which had been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1728.67,"endTime":1732.27,"body":"built by a previous director of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1732.27,"endTime":1736.44,"body":"the excavations. That's Max"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1732.27,"endTime":1736.44,"body":"Mallowan. Max with his wife,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1736.44,"endTime":1741.06,"body":"Agatha Christie, of course. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1736.44,"endTime":1741.06,"body":"Max had always been insistent"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1741.06,"endTime":1746.91,"body":"that his excavations should be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1741.06,"endTime":1746.91,"body":"comfortable. And so there was a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1746.91,"endTime":1751.23,"body":"cook, and there were servants."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1746.91,"endTime":1751.23,"body":"And it was very old fashioned in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1751.23,"endTime":1751.92,"body":"that respect."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1753.25,"endTime":1758.35,"body":"The food was local. And my first"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1753.25,"endTime":1758.35,"body":"impression of the food at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1758.35,"endTime":1762.13,"body":"Nimrud, I suppose, was my first"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1758.35,"endTime":1762.13,"body":"breakfast there. The one that I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1762.13,"endTime":1765.64,"body":"remember; when there was this"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1762.13,"endTime":1765.64,"body":"wonderful yogurt that arrived"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1765.82,"endTime":1770.44,"body":"from the nearby village, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1765.82,"endTime":1770.44,"body":"small modern village of Nimrud."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1771.07,"endTime":1775.27,"body":"It was brought by donkey. We ate"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1771.07,"endTime":1775.27,"body":"it for breakfast with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1776.23,"endTime":1780.49,"body":"bread--circular flat pieces of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1776.23,"endTime":1780.49,"body":"Iraqi bread, cooked by the wife"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1780.52,"endTime":1785.83,"body":"of the guard. And so it was very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1780.52,"endTime":1785.83,"body":"nice in that respect. We were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1785.92,"endTime":1791.89,"body":"comfortably looked after. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1785.92,"endTime":1791.89,"body":"when the floods came, all the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1791.89,"endTime":1796.18,"body":"people in the local villages"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1791.89,"endTime":1796.18,"body":"would go up from the floodplain"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1796.18,"endTime":1799.84,"body":"of the Tigris and gather"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1796.18,"endTime":1799.84,"body":"together on and around the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1799.84,"endTime":1804.91,"body":"mound. And so one thought one"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1799.84,"endTime":1804.91,"body":"was really in a time warp, in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1804.91,"endTime":1808.21,"body":"the sense that this was the kind"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1804.91,"endTime":1808.21,"body":"of thing that had been happening"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1808.21,"endTime":1811.96,"body":"there for many, many centuries."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1808.21,"endTime":1811.96,"body":"Which of course no longer"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1811.96,"endTime":1814.75,"body":"happens with all the dams that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1811.96,"endTime":1814.75,"body":"have been built across the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1814.75,"endTime":1815.08,"body":"river."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1816.73,"endTime":1819.28,"body":"In addition to the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1816.73,"endTime":1819.28,"body":"director, the visiting"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1819.28,"endTime":1822.94,"body":"archaeologists like yourself,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1819.28,"endTime":1822.94,"body":"and the servants, there were"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1822.94,"endTime":1826.24,"body":"also the local dig teams. Can"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1822.94,"endTime":1826.24,"body":"you tell us something about"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1826.24,"endTime":1826.99,"body":"them, please?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1827.83,"endTime":1832.45,"body":"The Iraqi workmen"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1827.83,"endTime":1832.45,"body":"were in two groups. One was the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1832.48,"endTime":1835.93,"body":"Shergatis. The Shergatis were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1832.48,"endTime":1835.93,"body":"men who came from the village of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1835.93,"endTime":1841.87,"body":"Shergat, not very far away,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1835.93,"endTime":1841.87,"body":"which was beside the site of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1841.9,"endTime":1846.94,"body":"ancient Assyrian capital city of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1841.9,"endTime":1846.94,"body":"Ashur. And that had been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1846.94,"endTime":1853.33,"body":"excavated by a man called Andre"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1846.94,"endTime":1853.33,"body":"in the early 1900s. And he had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1853.75,"endTime":1859.48,"body":"trained his work been in the art"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1853.75,"endTime":1859.48,"body":"of recognising mud brick, and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1859.51,"endTime":1863.53,"body":"working carefully identifying"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1859.51,"endTime":1863.53,"body":"floors and that kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1864.19,"endTime":1867.61,"body":"Andre was a brilliant"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1864.19,"endTime":1867.61,"body":"archaeologist, and he the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1867.7,"endTime":1871.69,"body":"Shergatis carried on the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1867.7,"endTime":1871.69,"body":"tradition which he had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1871.75,"endTime":1876.07,"body":"initiated, and they became"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1871.75,"endTime":1876.07,"body":"skilled workmen at excavations"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1876.1,"endTime":1882.37,"body":"all over the country. So we had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1876.1,"endTime":1882.37,"body":"maybe 15 Shergatis working for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1882.37,"endTime":1887.02,"body":"us, and each of them on the site"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1882.37,"endTime":1887.02,"body":"would be in charge of one small"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1887.02,"endTime":1891.25,"body":"group of local men. And the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1887.02,"endTime":1891.25,"body":"Shergati would do the skilled"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1891.28,"endTime":1896.98,"body":"digging. And the local men would"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1891.28,"endTime":1896.98,"body":"carry the earth away to dumps."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1898.34,"endTime":1902.06,"body":"Of course, when I arrived, I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1898.34,"endTime":1902.06,"body":"knew absolutely nothing. I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1902.06,"endTime":1906.38,"body":"put in a trench with someone"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1902.06,"endTime":1906.38,"body":"called Salih Hussein Dakhil, a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1906.38,"endTime":1910.01,"body":"Shergati who had originally"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1906.38,"endTime":1910.01,"body":"worked for the Chicago"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1910.01,"endTime":1915.32,"body":"excavations in the 1930s. And he"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1910.01,"endTime":1915.32,"body":"basically showed me how to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1915.32,"endTime":1919.91,"body":"recognise mud brick. Because"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1915.32,"endTime":1919.91,"body":"these buildings are made of mud"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1919.91,"endTime":1925.22,"body":"bricks, which when they decay"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1919.91,"endTime":1925.22,"body":"turn back to mud. And the rooms"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1925.25,"endTime":1929.66,"body":"get full of the fallen mud"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1925.25,"endTime":1929.66,"body":"bricks. So you've got to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1929.66,"endTime":1933.41,"body":"distinguish between the fallen"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1929.66,"endTime":1933.41,"body":"mud brick and the brick of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1933.41,"endTime":1936.98,"body":"wall, which is of course"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1933.41,"endTime":1936.98,"body":"properly laid. And that was the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1936.98,"endTime":1941.15,"body":"kind of skill which Salih"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1936.98,"endTime":1941.15,"body":"Hussein and other skilled"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1941.15,"endTime":1945.56,"body":"Shergatis had, and which they"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1941.15,"endTime":1945.56,"body":"enjoyed teaching to beginners"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1945.56,"endTime":1946.1,"body":"like me."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1947.06,"endTime":1950.6,"body":"Another thing that Shergatis"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1947.06,"endTime":1950.6,"body":"were doing was excavating the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1950.63,"endTime":1955.46,"body":"ivories. Because at that stage,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1950.63,"endTime":1955.46,"body":"there were large numbers of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1955.49,"endTime":1958.46,"body":"ivories that were being"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1955.49,"endTime":1958.46,"body":"excavated from a couple of store"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1958.46,"endTime":1962.9,"body":"rooms at Nimrud. And these were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1958.46,"endTime":1962.9,"body":"very delicate items, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1962.9,"endTime":1966.35,"body":"beautifully carved. And there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1962.9,"endTime":1966.35,"body":"were a couple of Shergatis who"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1966.35,"endTime":1969.83,"body":"were particularly good at doing"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1966.35,"endTime":1969.83,"body":"the excavation of these things:"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1970.61,"endTime":1976.52,"body":"Dola Taleb and Salim Mohamed"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1970.61,"endTime":1976.52,"body":"al-Muslim. And they would dig"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1976.52,"endTime":1981.68,"body":"them up and wet, they would be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1976.52,"endTime":1981.68,"body":"quite delicate. Then those"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1981.68,"endTime":1985.1,"body":"ivories would be taken back to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1981.68,"endTime":1985.1,"body":"the house. And we had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1985.1,"endTime":1988.91,"body":"conservators, women from the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1985.1,"endTime":1988.91,"body":"Institute of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1988.94,"endTime":1994.52,"body":"Archaeology--including Nina"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1988.94,"endTime":1994.52,"body":"Shaw, to whom I was later"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1994.55,"endTime":1998.84,"body":"married--who were there in order"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1994.55,"endTime":1998.84,"body":"to clean the ivories in the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1998.84,"endTime":2003.88,"body":"house. Another was Ann Searight,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":1998.84,"endTime":2003.88,"body":"who is now a distinguished"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2003.91,"endTime":2004.63,"body":"illustrator."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2005.92,"endTime":2009.1,"body":"After Nimrud, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2005.92,"endTime":2009.1,"body":"went on to direct excavations of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2009.1,"endTime":2011.14,"body":"your own at the site of Tell"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2009.1,"endTime":2011.14,"body":"Taya."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2012.34,"endTime":2015.4,"body":"Yes, well, what's"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2012.34,"endTime":2015.4,"body":"happened is that David Oates,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2015.43,"endTime":2020.47,"body":"who was director at Nimrud, in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2015.43,"endTime":2020.47,"body":"fact, then went on to excavate a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2020.47,"endTime":2023.83,"body":"site called Tell Rimah,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2020.47,"endTime":2023.83,"body":"somewhere else in northern Iraq."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2024.52,"endTime":2029.29,"body":"And I went along and helped on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2024.52,"endTime":2029.29,"body":"that one. It was in an area"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2029.29,"endTime":2033.67,"body":"called the Sinjar plain, with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2029.29,"endTime":2033.67,"body":"lots of ancient sites. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2033.67,"endTime":2039.04,"body":"whereas Nimrud had really been a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2033.67,"endTime":2039.04,"body":"site of the early first"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2039.04,"endTime":2044.05,"body":"millennium BC, Tell Rimah was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2039.04,"endTime":2044.05,"body":"most important in the second"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2044.05,"endTime":2048.4,"body":"millennium. David's work there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2044.05,"endTime":2048.4,"body":"produced a whole lot of very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2048.4,"endTime":2053.23,"body":"important information about that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2048.4,"endTime":2053.23,"body":"period. Well, there was then the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2053.23,"endTime":2057.55,"body":"third millennium. And it was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2053.23,"endTime":2057.55,"body":"clear from the number of sites"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2058.03,"endTime":2061.96,"body":"that there had also been an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2058.03,"endTime":2061.96,"body":"important urban civilisation in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2061.96,"endTime":2065.71,"body":"the area in the third"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2061.96,"endTime":2065.71,"body":"millennium. And I had the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2065.71,"endTime":2070.87,"body":"opportunity of excavating one of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2065.71,"endTime":2070.87,"body":"the third millennium city sites,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2071.05,"endTime":2071.8,"body":"Tell Taya."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2072.55,"endTime":2078.16,"body":"It was a town which had expanded"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2072.55,"endTime":2078.16,"body":"very rapidly. And so the town"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2078.16,"endTime":2082.51,"body":"plan was still visible on the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2078.16,"endTime":2082.51,"body":"surface, because there the walls"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2082.51,"endTime":2086.89,"body":"had been made of stone with mud"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2082.51,"endTime":2086.89,"body":"brick on top of them. And after"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2086.89,"endTime":2091.12,"body":"the mud brick had eroded, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2086.89,"endTime":2091.12,"body":"stone was still visible. And one"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2091.12,"endTime":2094.75,"body":"could see the entire plan of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2091.12,"endTime":2094.75,"body":"outer town apart from the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2094.75,"endTime":2099.76,"body":"middle, radiating out from the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2094.75,"endTime":2099.76,"body":"centre. What I was able to do"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2099.88,"endTime":2103.39,"body":"was to establish for the later"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2099.88,"endTime":2103.39,"body":"third millennium, the kind of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2103.42,"endTime":2107.77,"body":"information on the urban"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2103.42,"endTime":2107.77,"body":"environment, the local culture,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2108.01,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"that Oates had done with Tell"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2108.01,"endTime":2111.58,"body":"Rimah for the second millennium."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2112.65,"endTime":2115.53,"body":"One of the disappointments is"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2112.65,"endTime":2115.53,"body":"that Oates at Rimah had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2115.53,"endTime":2120.93,"body":"succeeded in finding a whole lot"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2115.53,"endTime":2120.93,"body":"of cuneiform tablets, which were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2120.96,"endTime":2125.28,"body":"from the same period as those"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2120.96,"endTime":2125.28,"body":"from Mari in Syria, and which"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2125.28,"endTime":2129.45,"body":"threw a whole lot of light on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2125.28,"endTime":2129.45,"body":"one particular period. I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2129.45,"endTime":2134.97,"body":"rather hoping that I would find"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2129.45,"endTime":2134.97,"body":"tablets at Tell Taya. I didn't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2134.97,"endTime":2139.47,"body":"do so. It so happens that our"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2134.97,"endTime":2139.47,"body":"good friend Paolo Matthiae, who"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2139.47,"endTime":2143.97,"body":"excavated in Syria, in a site of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2139.47,"endTime":2143.97,"body":"about the same period, did find"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2144.0,"endTime":2147.51,"body":"tablets. It was what I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2144.0,"endTime":2147.51,"body":"looking for at Taya."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2148.86,"endTime":2152.1,"body":"Do you have any"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2148.86,"endTime":2152.1,"body":"ideas about why no tablets were"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2152.1,"endTime":2154.14,"body":"found there at a site like that?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2155.25,"endTime":2157.47,"body":"I have since"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2155.25,"endTime":2157.47,"body":"developed a theory about this."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2157.65,"endTime":2162.06,"body":"Because it's well known that in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2157.65,"endTime":2162.06,"body":"the second and first millennia,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2162.39,"endTime":2167.01,"body":"there weren't only clay tablets"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2162.39,"endTime":2167.01,"body":"incised with cuneiform. But also"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2167.01,"endTime":2170.31,"body":"that there were large numbers of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2167.01,"endTime":2170.31,"body":"board books ... tablets ..."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2171.09,"endTime":2176.13,"body":"which were made out of wood with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2171.09,"endTime":2176.13,"body":"wax covering. In fact, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2176.13,"endTime":2180.36,"body":"number of those must have been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2176.13,"endTime":2180.36,"body":"enormous. It seems to me not"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2180.39,"endTime":2184.5,"body":"unlikely that in the second and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2180.39,"endTime":2184.5,"body":"third millennia, there were also"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2184.5,"endTime":2189.48,"body":"similarly large numbers of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2184.5,"endTime":2189.48,"body":"records of this kind, which have"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2189.48,"endTime":2192.33,"body":"not survived in the same way"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2189.48,"endTime":2192.33,"body":"that clay did."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2193.38,"endTime":2196.41,"body":"There's a similar problem with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2193.38,"endTime":2196.41,"body":"civilisations like the Indus"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2196.41,"endTime":2200.49,"body":"civilisation, which was clearly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2196.41,"endTime":2200.49,"body":"literate, and which has a system"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2200.49,"endTime":2204.06,"body":"of writing, which is well"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2200.49,"endTime":2204.06,"body":"attested on seals. But there is"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2204.06,"endTime":2209.01,"body":"next to nothing in the way of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2204.06,"endTime":2209.01,"body":"written record surviving. We"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2209.01,"endTime":2212.82,"body":"know that there are things like"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2209.01,"endTime":2212.82,"body":"paper or bark, which one can use"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2212.82,"endTime":2216.24,"body":"as a writing material, and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2212.82,"endTime":2216.24,"body":"presumably something like that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2216.24,"endTime":2219.27,"body":"was used in the Indus"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2216.24,"endTime":2219.27,"body":"civilisation. And I rather think"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2219.27,"endTime":2223.53,"body":"that there were alternative"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2219.27,"endTime":2223.53,"body":"media on which writing was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2223.56,"endTime":2228.42,"body":"employed in northern Iraq,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2223.56,"endTime":2228.42,"body":"before clay became dominant. As"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2228.42,"endTime":2231.06,"body":"with so many things, it has to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2228.42,"endTime":2231.06,"body":"be a hypothesis."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2232.0,"endTime":2235.24,"body":"As a curator, you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2232.0,"endTime":2235.24,"body":"had a gift for finding things"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2235.24,"endTime":2238.54,"body":"that people had forgotten about,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2235.24,"endTime":2238.54,"body":"and using resources that people"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2238.54,"endTime":2241.39,"body":"had ignored, to discover all"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2238.54,"endTime":2241.39,"body":"sorts of interesting new"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2241.39,"endTime":2242.17,"body":"information."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2243.62,"endTime":2246.05,"body":"Well, I had a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2243.62,"endTime":2246.05,"body":"great advantage when I came to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2246.05,"endTime":2250.52,"body":"the British Museum. Because I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2246.05,"endTime":2250.52,"body":"was actually I think, the first"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2250.52,"endTime":2255.38,"body":"person employed there, who had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2250.52,"endTime":2255.38,"body":"had a long experience of working"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2255.5,"endTime":2260.21,"body":"in the field in Iraq. John"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2255.5,"endTime":2260.21,"body":"Curtis had been in Iraq for a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2260.21,"endTime":2264.56,"body":"short time. But I'd been there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2260.21,"endTime":2264.56,"body":"for several years, and I had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2264.56,"endTime":2269.36,"body":"been there for 13 years off and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2264.56,"endTime":2269.36,"body":"on before I came to the museum."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2269.48,"endTime":2273.74,"body":"And so I knew much more about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2269.48,"endTime":2273.74,"body":"the kind of things which might"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2273.74,"endTime":2276.98,"body":"be interesting. And there were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2273.74,"endTime":2276.98,"body":"lots of bits and pieces in the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2276.98,"endTime":2281.54,"body":"museum that hadn't really been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2276.98,"endTime":2281.54,"body":"looked at by someone with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2281.54,"endTime":2283.7,"body":"experience of field conditions."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2284.15,"endTime":2287.42,"body":"For instance, one of the first"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2284.15,"endTime":2287.42,"body":"things I was asked to do was to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2287.42,"endTime":2291.35,"body":"look after Dan Barag, an expert"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2287.42,"endTime":2291.35,"body":"on glass, who was preparing a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2291.35,"endTime":2295.88,"body":"catalogue of ancient glass. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2291.35,"endTime":2295.88,"body":"he said to me, \"Well, can you"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2295.88,"endTime":2300.47,"body":"find any more? This is what I've"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2295.88,"endTime":2300.47,"body":"got\". And I looked around the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2300.5,"endTime":2305.87,"body":"department, and I found several"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2300.5,"endTime":2305.87,"body":"more groups of glass, which was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2305.9,"endTime":2310.88,"body":"in a rather decayed state. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2305.9,"endTime":2310.88,"body":"which had not been recognised as"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2310.88,"endTime":2314.09,"body":"glass, when people had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2310.88,"endTime":2314.09,"body":"originally been collecting the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2314.09,"endTime":2318.89,"body":"material for Barag to study."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2314.09,"endTime":2318.89,"body":"That was the kind of expertise"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2318.89,"endTime":2323.3,"body":"that I had actually acquired in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2318.89,"endTime":2323.3,"body":"the field, which gave me an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2323.3,"endTime":2325.67,"body":"advantage in looking at the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2323.3,"endTime":2325.67,"body":"collections."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2326.66,"endTime":2330.11,"body":"The other thing is that there is"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2326.66,"endTime":2330.11,"body":"a huge amount of documentation"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2330.11,"endTime":2334.85,"body":"in the BM about the old"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2330.11,"endTime":2334.85,"body":"excavations. It's not in good"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2334.85,"endTime":2338.24,"body":"order, because it used to be"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2334.85,"endTime":2338.24,"body":"kept basically in chronological"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2338.24,"endTime":2342.29,"body":"order. People would write"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2338.24,"endTime":2342.29,"body":"reports, and they were stored in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2342.29,"endTime":2345.86,"body":"chronological order. And the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2342.29,"endTime":2345.86,"body":"whole business of collecting"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2345.86,"endTime":2350.48,"body":"them together was time"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2345.86,"endTime":2350.48,"body":"consuming. And no one had had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2350.48,"endTime":2355.94,"body":"the time to do it. I was asked"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2350.48,"endTime":2355.94,"body":"to provide some background for a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2355.94,"endTime":2360.5,"body":"catalogue of some cuneiform"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2355.94,"endTime":2360.5,"body":"tablets that had been excavated"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2360.5,"endTime":2366.89,"body":"about 1878 to 1880. So I went"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2360.5,"endTime":2366.89,"body":"off to the central archive of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2366.89,"endTime":2371.84,"body":"the museum, and I discovered"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2366.89,"endTime":2371.84,"body":"their lists and details, which"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2371.84,"endTime":2376.04,"body":"hadn't been really available to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2371.84,"endTime":2376.04,"body":"people studying them in the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2376.07,"endTime":2379.79,"body":"department itself. And so I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2376.07,"endTime":2379.79,"body":"able to put together an account"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2379.79,"endTime":2383.15,"body":"of those excavations and answer"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2379.79,"endTime":2383.15,"body":"a number of questions about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2383.15,"endTime":2386.69,"body":"them. Simply by looking at the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2383.15,"endTime":2386.69,"body":"old archives."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2387.53,"endTime":2390.26,"body":"Within the collection, there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2387.53,"endTime":2390.26,"body":"were things that hadn't been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2390.26,"endTime":2395.3,"body":"understood, or that had been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2390.26,"endTime":2395.3,"body":"ignored. There was one thing I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2395.3,"endTime":2399.2,"body":"remember which was a cuneiform"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2395.3,"endTime":2399.2,"body":"tablet. Well, it wasn't exactly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2399.2,"endTime":2402.17,"body":"a cuneiform tablet. It was one"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2399.2,"endTime":2402.17,"body":"of the earliest examples of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2402.2,"endTime":2406.97,"body":"writing, not on clay, but on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2402.2,"endTime":2406.97,"body":"gypsum in fact. It hadn't been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2406.97,"endTime":2412.1,"body":"recognised as a written tablet"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2406.97,"endTime":2412.1,"body":"at all. I had a great advantage"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2412.1,"endTime":2416.57,"body":"because when I joined the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2412.1,"endTime":2416.57,"body":"museum, one of the practices was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2416.57,"endTime":2419.81,"body":"that the latest arrival should"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2416.57,"endTime":2419.81,"body":"be given responsibility for what"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2419.81,"endTime":2423.14,"body":"was called \"keeping the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2419.81,"endTime":2423.14,"body":"register\". That was to say,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2423.77,"endTime":2427.01,"body":"recording all the things which"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2423.77,"endTime":2427.01,"body":"are coming into the museum and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2427.01,"endTime":2432.2,"body":"making a formal entry of their"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2427.01,"endTime":2432.2,"body":"arrival. I took that to mean"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2432.2,"endTime":2436.25,"body":"that I should check that all the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2432.2,"endTime":2436.25,"body":"register was in order. And I"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2436.25,"endTime":2440.3,"body":"found that there were a whole"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2436.25,"endTime":2440.3,"body":"number of areas in which extra"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2440.3,"endTime":2444.8,"body":"work was needed to ensure that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2440.3,"endTime":2444.8,"body":"the collection was properly and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2444.8,"endTime":2450.2,"body":"formally recorded. That really"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2444.8,"endTime":2450.2,"body":"involved me in looking through"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2450.35,"endTime":2454.25,"body":"the entire archaeological"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2450.35,"endTime":2454.25,"body":"collection. And indeed quite a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2454.25,"endTime":2455.3,"body":"lot of the tablets."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2456.38,"endTime":2458.36,"body":"There was a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2456.38,"endTime":2458.36,"body":"spectacular example of that,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2458.39,"endTime":2458.84,"body":"wasn't there?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2459.83,"endTime":2462.74,"body":"In the course of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2459.83,"endTime":2462.74,"body":"acting as registrar with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2462.74,"endTime":2465.35,"body":"responsibility to make sure that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2462.74,"endTime":2465.35,"body":"everything was properly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2465.35,"endTime":2469.46,"body":"recorded, I discovered that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2465.35,"endTime":2469.46,"body":"there had been a peculiar"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2469.46,"endTime":2473.99,"body":"practice in the mid 19th"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2469.46,"endTime":2473.99,"body":"century, of placing objects on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2473.99,"endTime":2479.12,"body":"display before they had been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2473.99,"endTime":2479.12,"body":"properly recorded. So if"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2479.12,"endTime":2482.9,"body":"something really nice came in,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2479.12,"endTime":2482.9,"body":"it went straight into a case for"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2482.9,"endTime":2487.37,"body":"everyone to look at. And it"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2482.9,"endTime":2487.37,"body":"missed out on the process of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2487.49,"endTime":2491.24,"body":"official recording. So as a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2487.49,"endTime":2491.24,"body":"result, there were some rather"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2491.24,"endTime":2495.41,"body":"fine things whose date of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2491.24,"endTime":2495.41,"body":"arrival, even provenance was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2495.47,"endTime":2499.88,"body":"unknown. At the same time, there"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2495.47,"endTime":2499.88,"body":"were some things whose date of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2499.88,"endTime":2503.96,"body":"arrival was known, but which"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2499.88,"endTime":2503.96,"body":"hadn't been properly recorded."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2504.74,"endTime":2509.63,"body":"One of my most satisfying"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2504.74,"endTime":2509.63,"body":"moments was to make the formal"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2509.66,"endTime":2516.26,"body":"register entry in the Museum of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2509.66,"endTime":2516.26,"body":"the arrival of its two largest"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2516.26,"endTime":2520.55,"body":"human headed winged Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2516.26,"endTime":2520.55,"body":"lions, which had actually"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2520.58,"endTime":2527.72,"body":"arrived in 1852, but which were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2520.58,"endTime":2527.72,"body":"only recorded formally in about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2527.93,"endTime":2528.98,"body":"1990."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2529.85,"endTime":2533.24,"body":"Other examples were"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2529.85,"endTime":2533.24,"body":"less dramatic, but nonetheless"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2533.24,"endTime":2534.26,"body":"very important."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2535.95,"endTime":2538.05,"body":"Another thing that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2535.95,"endTime":2538.05,"body":"happened to me when I first"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2538.05,"endTime":2542.37,"body":"joined the museum was that I was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2538.05,"endTime":2542.37,"body":"instructed to take charge of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2542.37,"endTime":2546.66,"body":"departmental contribution to a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2542.37,"endTime":2546.66,"body":"museum wide exhibition of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2546.66,"endTime":2551.16,"body":"jewelry. And in the course of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2546.66,"endTime":2551.16,"body":"doing that, I discovered that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2551.16,"endTime":2557.4,"body":"there was one group of beads"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2551.16,"endTime":2557.4,"body":"imported from India to the Royal"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2557.4,"endTime":2561.21,"body":"Tombs of Ur. They were very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2557.4,"endTime":2561.21,"body":"distinctive. They were made by a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2561.21,"endTime":2566.01,"body":"special technique, bleached"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2561.21,"endTime":2566.01,"body":"Carnelian beads. And they had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2566.01,"endTime":2571.02,"body":"also been rather poorly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2566.01,"endTime":2571.02,"body":"recorded. And so I put together"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2571.17,"endTime":2574.92,"body":"a short catalogue of these"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2571.17,"endTime":2574.92,"body":"beads, both those from the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2574.98,"endTime":2578.91,"body":"museum and those from elsewhere"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2574.98,"endTime":2578.91,"body":"and published it. That was the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2578.91,"endTime":2582.75,"body":"beginning of my involvement in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2578.91,"endTime":2582.75,"body":"the connection between"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2582.75,"endTime":2588.15,"body":"Mesopotamia between ancient Iraq"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2582.75,"endTime":2588.15,"body":"and the Persian Gulf and India,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2589.08,"endTime":2593.07,"body":"which ultimately resulted in my"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2589.08,"endTime":2593.07,"body":"working in the Sultanate of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2593.07,"endTime":2598.44,"body":"Oman. And even discovering at"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2593.07,"endTime":2598.44,"body":"Ras al-Hadd an ancient site with"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2598.44,"endTime":2604.08,"body":"material from the Indus Valley"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2598.44,"endTime":2604.08,"body":"civilisation, at a harbour in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2604.08,"endTime":2605.22,"body":"the Sultanate of Oman."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2606.33,"endTime":2608.76,"body":"You also shed light"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2606.33,"endTime":2608.76,"body":"on the collection through"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2608.76,"endTime":2612.15,"body":"researching the personalities"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2608.76,"endTime":2612.15,"body":"around the museum in the 19th"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2612.15,"endTime":2613.68,"body":"and 20th century, didn't you?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2615.33,"endTime":2617.97,"body":"The person that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2615.33,"endTime":2617.97,"body":"had found a large number of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2617.97,"endTime":2624.27,"body":"tablets was a man called Hormuzd"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2617.97,"endTime":2624.27,"body":"Rassam, an Iraqi. He had fallen"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2624.27,"endTime":2628.53,"body":"out in a big way with a man"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2624.27,"endTime":2628.53,"body":"called Wallis Budge, who later"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2628.53,"endTime":2634.29,"body":"became head of the department in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2628.53,"endTime":2634.29,"body":"the museum. The reasons why they"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2634.29,"endTime":2639.24,"body":"fell out and their personalities"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2634.29,"endTime":2639.24,"body":"were of considerable interest to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2639.24,"endTime":2643.95,"body":"me. So I took the opportunity of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2639.24,"endTime":2643.95,"body":"researching and writing about"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2643.95,"endTime":2648.42,"body":"both of them. And of course, the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2643.95,"endTime":2648.42,"body":"way in which these quarrels work"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2648.75,"endTime":2654.27,"body":"is that they affect the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2648.75,"endTime":2654.27,"body":"recording and publication of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2654.33,"endTime":2659.1,"body":"antiquities. For instance, Budge"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2654.33,"endTime":2659.1,"body":"was very much against some"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2659.1,"endTime":2663.84,"body":"individuals, and therefore, he"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2659.1,"endTime":2663.84,"body":"suppressed the work that they"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2663.84,"endTime":2668.67,"body":"had done. And he pretended that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2663.84,"endTime":2668.67,"body":"one of Russam's most important"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2668.67,"endTime":2672.03,"body":"discoveries had been found in a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2668.67,"endTime":2672.03,"body":"completely different place. So"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2672.03,"endTime":2676.68,"body":"the whole lot of these ... these"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2672.03,"endTime":2676.68,"body":"personal issues, which seem"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2676.68,"endTime":2680.58,"body":"terribly trivial now, but which"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2676.68,"endTime":2680.58,"body":"were very important at the time,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2680.7,"endTime":2685.41,"body":"to the individuals concerned,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2680.7,"endTime":2685.41,"body":"and which actually affected how"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2685.41,"endTime":2688.65,"body":"the collections were presented"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2685.41,"endTime":2688.65,"body":"and published."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2689.76,"endTime":2692.61,"body":"One of the areas for"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2689.76,"endTime":2692.61,"body":"which you're best known is that"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2692.61,"endTime":2697.05,"body":"of the Assyrian palace reliefs."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2692.61,"endTime":2697.05,"body":"In recent years, there's been a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2697.05,"endTime":2700.8,"body":"lot of discussion around how"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2697.05,"endTime":2700.8,"body":"best to display them. Do you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2700.8,"endTime":2702.36,"body":"have thoughts on that subject?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2703.08,"endTime":2706.47,"body":"Yes, it's really"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2703.08,"endTime":2706.47,"body":"difficult. The British Museum"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2706.47,"endTime":2712.14,"body":"has these large collections of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2706.47,"endTime":2712.14,"body":"wall reliefs. And about 1970,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2712.17,"endTime":2716.4,"body":"the rooms containing them were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2712.17,"endTime":2716.4,"body":"redecorated. The man then in"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2716.4,"endTime":2721.47,"body":"charge, Barnett, thought that he"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2716.4,"endTime":2721.47,"body":"would use a red colour on the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2721.47,"endTime":2725.55,"body":"walls around the reliefs, which"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2721.47,"endTime":2725.55,"body":"was a good Assyrian colour."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2726.84,"endTime":2731.82,"body":"Then, about 30 years later, John"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2726.84,"endTime":2731.82,"body":"Curtis, who was then in charge,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2732.15,"endTime":2736.65,"body":"decided that actually, it would"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2732.15,"endTime":2736.65,"body":"be better to change that red to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2736.65,"endTime":2741.18,"body":"grey. And the extraordinary"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2736.65,"endTime":2741.18,"body":"thing is that Curtis was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2741.18,"endTime":2745.23,"body":"absolutely right in this,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2741.18,"endTime":2745.23,"body":"because the red colour had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2745.23,"endTime":2750.69,"body":"distracted the eye from the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2745.23,"endTime":2750.69,"body":"carved panels. And by making the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2750.69,"endTime":2755.88,"body":"walls grey, the panels became"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2750.69,"endTime":2755.88,"body":"more prominent, and the eye was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2755.88,"endTime":2759.69,"body":"not distracted in the same way."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2755.88,"endTime":2759.69,"body":"It was an interesting example of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2759.69,"endTime":2764.01,"body":"how the surroundings of an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2759.69,"endTime":2764.01,"body":"antiquity actually affect how"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2764.01,"endTime":2764.91,"body":"one looks at it."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2765.87,"endTime":2769.41,"body":"Well, the problem with the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2765.87,"endTime":2769.41,"body":"Assyrian sculptures is that they"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2769.41,"endTime":2773.49,"body":"were originally painted. They've"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2769.41,"endTime":2773.49,"body":"lost their paint, and unless"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2773.49,"endTime":2777.21,"body":"they're very skillfully lit,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2773.49,"endTime":2777.21,"body":"they tend to look rather flat,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2777.48,"endTime":2780.96,"body":"because they're in quite low"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2777.48,"endTime":2780.96,"body":"relief. And they can even look"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2780.96,"endTime":2787.29,"body":"just little more than wallpaper."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2780.96,"endTime":2787.29,"body":"I've never had a clear idea of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2787.32,"endTime":2791.82,"body":"how best to display them. But"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2787.32,"endTime":2791.82,"body":"the museum in a recent"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2791.82,"endTime":2795.09,"body":"exhibition was experimenting"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2791.82,"endTime":2795.09,"body":"with different forms of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2795.09,"endTime":2799.8,"body":"lighting, to suggest different"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2795.09,"endTime":2799.8,"body":"colours on some of the panels."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2800.58,"endTime":2804.81,"body":"And that I thought was extremely"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2800.58,"endTime":2804.81,"body":"successful. There are many"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2804.81,"endTime":2808.29,"body":"things that can be done on those"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2804.81,"endTime":2808.29,"body":"lines, particularly with modern"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2808.29,"endTime":2813.42,"body":"digital possibilities. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2808.29,"endTime":2813.42,"body":"goodness knows how the question"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2813.45,"endTime":2818.88,"body":"of display will evolve. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2813.45,"endTime":2818.88,"body":"I know some people who are busy"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2818.88,"endTime":2824.34,"body":"making virtual walkthroughs,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2818.88,"endTime":2824.34,"body":"whereby one can put a whole"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2824.34,"endTime":2829.62,"body":"series of panels on walls onto a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2824.34,"endTime":2829.62,"body":"screen, and you can then walk"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2829.62,"endTime":2834.87,"body":"through the room without"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2829.62,"endTime":2834.87,"body":"visiting a museum at all. In"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2834.87,"endTime":2839.34,"body":"theory, you could have a close"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2834.87,"endTime":2839.34,"body":"up view of all the pieces. This,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2839.34,"endTime":2843.21,"body":"of course, makes the museum"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2839.34,"endTime":2843.21,"body":"itself almost superfluous. And"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2843.33,"endTime":2845.55,"body":"maybe that's how things will"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2843.33,"endTime":2845.55,"body":"eventually develop."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2846.95,"endTime":2848.48,"body":"Do you have a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2846.95,"endTime":2848.48,"body":"preference for how they're"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2848.48,"endTime":2851.96,"body":"displayed in general? I mean"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2848.48,"endTime":2851.96,"body":"here, should they be shown in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2851.96,"endTime":2856.04,"body":"their architectural contexts as"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2851.96,"endTime":2856.04,"body":"long ranges of complex"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2856.04,"endTime":2859.22,"body":"narratives unfolding? Or do you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2856.04,"endTime":2859.22,"body":"think there's room for"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2859.22,"endTime":2863.33,"body":"presenting them as art objects"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2859.22,"endTime":2863.33,"body":"with single panels, plates,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2863.36,"endTime":2864.86,"body":"coloured and interpreted?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2865.97,"endTime":2867.8,"body":"This is a"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2865.97,"endTime":2867.8,"body":"complicated issue, because of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2867.8,"endTime":2873.44,"body":"course, the object changes its"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2867.8,"endTime":2873.44,"body":"nature. I had the opportunity to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2873.47,"endTime":2878.63,"body":"accompany a big exhibition of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2873.47,"endTime":2878.63,"body":"Assyrian wall panels, which were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2878.63,"endTime":2882.83,"body":"being exhibited around the world"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2878.63,"endTime":2882.83,"body":"in different places. And it was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2882.83,"endTime":2885.59,"body":"very interesting to see how the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2882.83,"endTime":2885.59,"body":"different museums that were"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2885.59,"endTime":2888.41,"body":"borrowing this exhibition,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2885.59,"endTime":2888.41,"body":"displayed them in different"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2888.41,"endTime":2893.24,"body":"ways. Some of them presented"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2888.41,"endTime":2893.24,"body":"them as long walls, and some of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2893.24,"endTime":2896.84,"body":"them presented them, so far as"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2893.24,"endTime":2896.84,"body":"they could, as individual"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2896.87,"endTime":2903.44,"body":"objects. Both methods were very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2896.87,"endTime":2903.44,"body":"interesting, and they each had"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2903.44,"endTime":2907.79,"body":"their advantages. I really don't"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2903.44,"endTime":2907.79,"body":"know which is right. If you've"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2907.79,"endTime":2911.3,"body":"got a small fragment, it's very"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2907.79,"endTime":2911.3,"body":"easy to turn it into an art"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2911.3,"endTime":2916.49,"body":"object. It acquires its own"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2911.3,"endTime":2916.49,"body":"personality in isolation. It can"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2916.49,"endTime":2920.72,"body":"be good to look at, but it's no"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2916.49,"endTime":2920.72,"body":"longer performing its original"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2920.72,"endTime":2925.34,"body":"function as part of a large and"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2920.72,"endTime":2925.34,"body":"complicated sequence of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2925.37,"endTime":2926.3,"body":"compositions."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2927.53,"endTime":2929.96,"body":"Is there a piece of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2927.53,"endTime":2929.96,"body":"work that you're particularly"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2929.96,"endTime":2930.65,"body":"proud of?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2931.88,"endTime":2934.94,"body":"I can't help"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2931.88,"endTime":2934.94,"body":"thinking that my book on"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2934.97,"endTime":2940.88,"body":"Assyrian sculpture, which was"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2934.97,"endTime":2940.88,"body":"about 1985 or so, which is still"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2940.88,"endTime":2945.59,"body":"in print, and which tried to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2940.88,"endTime":2945.59,"body":"present the Assyrian sculptures"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2945.62,"endTime":2949.79,"body":"in a way that was comprehensible"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2945.62,"endTime":2949.79,"body":"to the general public, as well"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2949.79,"endTime":2954.2,"body":"as being correct, as a scholarly"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2949.79,"endTime":2954.2,"body":"presentation, I think that"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2954.2,"endTime":2955.58,"body":"perhaps is the best thing I've"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2954.2,"endTime":2955.58,"body":"done."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2956.66,"endTime":2959.09,"body":"You have a new book"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2956.66,"endTime":2959.09,"body":"coming out soon, don't you, on"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":2959.09,"endTime":2960.44,"body":"the palace of Ashurbanipal?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2960.0,"endTime":2962.52,"body":"The palace of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2960.0,"endTime":2962.52,"body":"Ashurbanipal? Yes, indeed,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2962.52,"endTime":2967.74,"body":"that's in press now. So I hope"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2962.52,"endTime":2967.74,"body":"it will be a success. It's an"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2967.74,"endTime":2971.61,"body":"example of what I've so"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2967.74,"endTime":2971.61,"body":"frequently found myself doing,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2972.12,"endTime":2975.15,"body":"of taking a whole lot of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2972.12,"endTime":2975.15,"body":"information that hasn't been"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2975.15,"endTime":2979.56,"body":"properly understood, or is"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2975.15,"endTime":2979.56,"body":"rather muddled, or is defective,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2979.83,"endTime":2984.21,"body":"and trying to put it together"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2979.83,"endTime":2984.21,"body":"into a new and more satisfactory"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2984.21,"endTime":2989.22,"body":"pattern. Which can then be used"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2984.21,"endTime":2989.22,"body":"as a building block for further"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2989.22,"endTime":2992.07,"body":"understanding of how the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2989.22,"endTime":2992.07,"body":"Assyrian Empire worked and how"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2992.07,"endTime":2997.35,"body":"people moved; how the Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2992.07,"endTime":2997.35,"body":"king saw himself. Because until"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2997.35,"endTime":3001.04,"body":"you've actually got the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":2997.35,"endTime":3001.04,"body":"environment in which he lived,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3001.28,"endTime":3006.41,"body":"like Louis XIV at Versailles,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3001.28,"endTime":3006.41,"body":"you can't really begin to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3006.44,"endTime":3010.73,"body":"appreciate what he was looking"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3006.44,"endTime":3010.73,"body":"at himself, and therefore how he"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3010.73,"endTime":3011.48,"body":"saw himself."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3012.53,"endTime":3015.59,"body":"Finally, although"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3012.53,"endTime":3015.59,"body":"nobody can predict the future,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3016.37,"endTime":3019.58,"body":"do you have a sense of where the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3016.37,"endTime":3019.58,"body":"field may be going? Is there"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3019.58,"endTime":3022.37,"body":"something that gives you cause"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3019.58,"endTime":3022.37,"body":"for hope or optimism?"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3023.03,"endTime":3025.19,"body":"Well, of course,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3023.03,"endTime":3025.19,"body":"it goes in both directions, you"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3025.19,"endTime":3027.92,"body":"get vandalism on the one hand,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3025.19,"endTime":3027.92,"body":"and on the other hand, you get"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3028.31,"endTime":3032.15,"body":"wonderful work being done by"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3028.31,"endTime":3032.15,"body":"some very enterprising scholars."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3032.51,"endTime":3036.53,"body":"Both the traditional European"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3032.51,"endTime":3036.53,"body":"and American ones, but also, of"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3036.53,"endTime":3041.48,"body":"course, the younger Iraqi"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3036.53,"endTime":3041.48,"body":"scholars. And you also have"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3041.51,"endTime":3046.58,"body":"people from other cultures,"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3041.51,"endTime":3046.58,"body":"Japan, China, also beginning to"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3046.58,"endTime":3051.02,"body":"look into the history of the"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3046.58,"endTime":3051.02,"body":"ancient Near East. How that will"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3051.14,"endTime":3054.95,"body":"evolve is something I will not"},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3051.14,"endTime":3054.95,"body":"care to predict."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3055.97,"endTime":3057.11,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":"Julian Reade","startTime":3057.65,"endTime":3058.25,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3059.23,"endTime":3061.87,"body":"I’d also like to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3059.23,"endTime":3061.87,"body":"thank our patrons: Tyler"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3061.87,"endTime":3067.87,"body":"Russell, Enrique Jimenez, Jana"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3061.87,"endTime":3067.87,"body":"Matuszak, Nancy Highcock, Jay C,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3068.23,"endTime":3073.51,"body":"Rune Rattenborg, Woodthrush,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3068.23,"endTime":3073.51,"body":"Elisa Rossberger, Mark Weeden,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3074.08,"endTime":3079.57,"body":"Jordi Mon Companys, Thomas"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3074.08,"endTime":3079.57,"body":"Bolin, Joan Porter MacIver, John"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3079.57,"endTime":3085.66,"body":"MacGinnis, Andrew George, Yelena"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3079.57,"endTime":3085.66,"body":"Rakic, Michael Katsevman, Mend"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3085.66,"endTime":3091.6,"body":"Mariwany, Kathryn Topper, Zach"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3085.66,"endTime":3091.6,"body":"Rubin, Sabina Franke, Sophus"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3091.6,"endTime":3097.93,"body":"Helle, Shai Gordin, Aaron Macks,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3091.6,"endTime":3097.93,"body":"Jonathan Stökl, Maarja Seire,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3098.32,"endTime":3103.45,"body":"Jaafar Jotheri, Morgan Hite,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3098.32,"endTime":3103.45,"body":"Chikako Watanabe, Mark"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3103.45,"endTime":3108.19,"body":"McElwaine, Heather Baker,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3103.45,"endTime":3108.19,"body":"Sukanya Ramanujan, Laura"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3108.19,"endTime":3113.95,"body":"Battini, Jonathan Blanchard"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3108.19,"endTime":3113.95,"body":"Smith, Vanessa Richards, Kliment"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3113.95,"endTime":3117.73,"body":"Ohr, TT, Christina"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3113.95,"endTime":3117.73,"body":"Tsouparopoulou, Andrew Senior,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3117.73,"endTime":3119.77,"body":"Melanie Gross, Adam, Claire"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3117.73,"endTime":3119.77,"body":"Weir, Marc Veldman, Bruno"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3120.31,"endTime":3122.86,"body":"Biermann, Faimon Roberts, Kim"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3120.31,"endTime":3122.86,"body":"Benzel, as well as those who"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3122.86,"endTime":3124.42,"body":"prefer to remain anonymous."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3125.26,"endTime":3127.84,"body":"I really appreciate your"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3125.26,"endTime":3127.84,"body":"support. It makes a big"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3127.84,"endTime":3132.37,"body":"difference. Every penny received"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3127.84,"endTime":3132.37,"body":"has contributed towards"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3132.37,"endTime":3135.82,"body":"translations. Thanks of course"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3132.37,"endTime":3135.82,"body":"to the lovely people who have"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3135.82,"endTime":3139.24,"body":"worked on the translations on a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3135.82,"endTime":3139.24,"body":"voluntary basis or for well"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3139.24,"endTime":3143.47,"body":"below the market rate. For"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3139.24,"endTime":3143.47,"body":"Arabic, thanks in particular to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3143.47,"endTime":3148.21,"body":"Zainab Mizyidawi, as well as"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3143.47,"endTime":3148.21,"body":"Lina Meerchyad and May Al-Aseel."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3149.02,"endTime":3155.56,"body":"For Turkish, thank you to Pinar"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3149.02,"endTime":3155.56,"body":"Durgun and Nesrin Akan. TEW is"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3155.56,"endTime":3159.07,"body":"still young, but I want to reach"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3155.56,"endTime":3159.07,"body":"a sustainable level, where"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3159.07,"endTime":3162.25,"body":"translators are given proper"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3159.07,"endTime":3162.25,"body":"compensation for their hard"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3162.25,"endTime":3162.7,"body":"work."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3164.98,"endTime":3168.25,"body":"And thank you for listening to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3164.98,"endTime":3168.25,"body":"Thin End of the Wedge. If you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3168.25,"endTime":3171.52,"body":"enjoy what we do, and you would"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3168.25,"endTime":3171.52,"body":"like to help make these podcasts"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3171.52,"endTime":3174.61,"body":"available in Middle Eastern"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3171.52,"endTime":3174.61,"body":"languages, please consider"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3174.61,"endTime":3178.45,"body":"joining our Patreon family. You"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3174.61,"endTime":3178.45,"body":"can find us at"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3178.48,"endTime":3184.81,"body":"patreon.com/wedgepod. You can"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3178.48,"endTime":3184.81,"body":"also support us in other ways:"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3185.5,"endTime":3189.31,"body":"simply subscribe to the podcast;"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3185.5,"endTime":3189.31,"body":"leave us a five star review on"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3189.34,"endTime":3192.61,"body":"Apple Music or your favourite"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":3189.34,"endTime":3192.61,"body":"podcatcher; recommend us to your"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3192.61,"endTime":3198.79,"body":"@wedge_pod. If you want the"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3198.79,"endTime":3202.36,"body":"latest podcast news, you can"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3198.79,"endTime":3202.36,"body":"sign up for our newsletter. You"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3202.36,"endTime":3206.17,"body":"can find all the links in the"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3202.36,"endTime":3206.17,"body":"show notes and on our website at"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3208.84,"endTime":3215.05,"body":"wedgepod.org. Thanks, and I hope"},{"speaker":"friends; follow us on Twitter","startTime":3208.84,"endTime":3215.05,"body":"you’ll join us next time."}]}