{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":13.83,"endTime":16.47,"body":"Hello, and welcome"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":13.83,"endTime":16.47,"body":"to the Thin End of the Wedge."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":16.68,"endTime":19.59,"body":"The podcast where experts from"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":16.68,"endTime":19.59,"body":"around the world share new and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":19.59,"endTime":23.73,"body":"interesting stories about life"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":19.59,"endTime":23.73,"body":"in the ancient Middle East. My"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":23.73,"endTime":27.51,"body":"name is Jon. Each episode I talk"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":23.73,"endTime":27.51,"body":"to friends and colleagues and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":27.51,"endTime":30.9,"body":"get them to explain their work"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":27.51,"endTime":30.9,"body":"in a way we can all understand."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":32.31,"endTime":36.3,"body":"Today I'm joined by someone who"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":32.31,"endTime":36.3,"body":"enjoys a challenge. She learned"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":36.3,"endTime":39.9,"body":"Japanese before taking on"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":36.3,"endTime":39.9,"body":"Sumerian and Akkadian. She's"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":39.9,"endTime":42.39,"body":"published a range of interesting"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":39.9,"endTime":42.39,"body":"articles, some addressing"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":42.39,"endTime":46.08,"body":"specialists, others addressing a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":42.39,"endTime":46.08,"body":"wider readership. She has also"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":46.08,"endTime":49.17,"body":"contributed to digital resources"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":46.08,"endTime":49.17,"body":"that make ancient texts more"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":49.2,"endTime":50.22,"body":"easily accessible."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":52.71,"endTime":55.71,"body":"Our guest has particular"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":52.71,"endTime":55.71,"body":"expertise in the demons of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":55.71,"endTime":58.92,"body":"Mesopotamia. Her doctoral"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":55.71,"endTime":58.92,"body":"dissertation focused on a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":58.92,"endTime":63.48,"body":"chaotic group of seven demons."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":58.92,"endTime":63.48,"body":"Now, you might think that you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":63.48,"endTime":67.11,"body":"know nothing about Mesopotamian"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":63.48,"endTime":67.11,"body":"demons, but many of you will"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":67.11,"endTime":70.02,"body":"have seen at least one of them,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":67.11,"endTime":70.02,"body":"although you probably didn't"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":70.02,"endTime":74.55,"body":"realise it at the time. Demons"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":70.02,"endTime":74.55,"body":"were very much part of life in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":74.55,"endTime":78.39,"body":"ancient Iraq. They bridged the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":74.55,"endTime":78.39,"body":"natural and supernatural worlds,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":78.66,"endTime":81.66,"body":"and had the power to affect the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":78.66,"endTime":81.66,"body":"well being of individuals and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":81.66,"endTime":87.24,"body":"kingdoms alike. Our guest earned"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":81.66,"endTime":87.24,"body":"a doctorate in the USA. Since"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":87.24,"endTime":89.67,"body":"then, she's worked as a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":87.24,"endTime":89.67,"body":"researcher in Finland and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":89.67,"endTime":93.81,"body":"currently in Japan. In this"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":89.67,"endTime":93.81,"body":"episode, she takes us on a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":93.81,"endTime":97.35,"body":"journey through the demon"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":93.81,"endTime":97.35,"body":"haunted world of Mesopotamia, a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":97.35,"endTime":100.71,"body":"world not so far in the past as"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":97.35,"endTime":100.71,"body":"we might imagine."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":102.42,"endTime":106.23,"body":"So get yourself a cup of tea,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":102.42,"endTime":106.23,"body":"make yourself comfortable. And"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":106.23,"endTime":107.88,"body":"let's meet today's guest."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":116.55,"endTime":119.43,"body":"Hello, and welcome to Thin End"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":116.55,"endTime":119.43,"body":"of the Wedge. Thank you very"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":119.43,"endTime":120.48,"body":"much for joining us."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":121.14,"endTime":123.54,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":121.14,"endTime":123.54,"body":"for having me on, Jon. It's good"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":123.54,"endTime":124.71,"body":"to see you virtually."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":125.76,"endTime":128.94,"body":"Could you tell us"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":125.76,"endTime":128.94,"body":"please: who are you? And what do"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":128.94,"endTime":129.39,"body":"you do?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":129.09,"endTime":132.9,"body":"So I'm"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":129.09,"endTime":132.9,"body":"Gina Konstantopoulos, Assistant"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":132.9,"endTime":137.49,"body":"Professor in the History of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":132.9,"endTime":137.49,"body":"Ancient Western Asia. I'm"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":137.49,"endTime":140.01,"body":"affiliated with the Research"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":137.49,"endTime":140.01,"body":"Center for West Asian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":140.01,"endTime":144.54,"body":"Civilisation, which is in Japa"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":140.01,"endTime":144.54,"body":"ese (speaks Japanese) at the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":144.54,"endTime":148.05,"body":"University of Tsukuba, whic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":144.54,"endTime":148.05,"body":"is just north of Tokyo, here"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":148.05,"endTime":149.37,"body":"n Japan."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":151.23,"endTime":154.32,"body":"Now you're an expert"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":151.23,"endTime":154.32,"body":"in demons, aren't you? Can we"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":154.32,"endTime":158.04,"body":"start with some fundamentals"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":154.32,"endTime":158.04,"body":"please? In the Mesopotamian"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":158.04,"endTime":160.74,"body":"world, there's a whole pantheon"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":158.04,"endTime":160.74,"body":"of gods, there are magical"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":160.74,"endTime":163.5,"body":"creatures, and of course,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":160.74,"endTime":163.5,"body":"there's man and the animals."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":163.95,"endTime":166.2,"body":"Where did the demons fit into"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":163.95,"endTime":166.2,"body":"all of this?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":167.14,"endTime":169.39,"body":"One of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":167.14,"endTime":169.39,"body":"interesting things when we study"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":169.39,"endTime":173.05,"body":"demons in Mesopotamia is our"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":169.39,"endTime":173.05,"body":"first big hurdle is actually"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":173.35,"endTime":177.28,"body":"this hurdle of terminology. And"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":173.35,"endTime":177.28,"body":"this is something we approach"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":177.28,"endTime":180.43,"body":"with demons, but also something"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":177.28,"endTime":180.43,"body":"with related concepts like"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":180.43,"endTime":184.33,"body":"magic, and even religion and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":180.43,"endTime":184.33,"body":"ritual. And what we think of as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":184.36,"endTime":188.26,"body":"demons falls under a lot of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":184.36,"endTime":188.26,"body":"these terms that have very much,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":188.29,"endTime":192.37,"body":"to be honest, Christian baggage."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":188.29,"endTime":192.37,"body":"The idea of a demon to most of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":192.37,"endTime":194.89,"body":"our modern conceptions is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":192.37,"endTime":194.89,"body":"something that is inherently"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":194.89,"endTime":199.24,"body":"malevolent, is inherently"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":194.89,"endTime":199.24,"body":"dangerous and aggressive. And"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":199.27,"endTime":202.99,"body":"certainly there were creatures"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":199.27,"endTime":202.99,"body":"that fall under that rubric in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":202.99,"endTime":208.66,"body":"Mesopotamia. But what we call a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":202.99,"endTime":208.66,"body":"demon, which to them would most"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":208.66,"endTime":212.38,"body":"likely have been considered by"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":208.66,"endTime":212.38,"body":"the word udug in Sumerian or"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":212.41,"endTime":216.88,"body":"utukku, its Akkadian equivalent,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":212.41,"endTime":216.88,"body":"would be, say, a creature"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":216.88,"endTime":222.82,"body":"capable of impacting the world,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":216.88,"endTime":222.82,"body":"through powers or abilities that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":222.82,"endTime":227.14,"body":"would be beyond necessarily what"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":222.82,"endTime":227.14,"body":"a general person might interact"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":227.14,"endTime":229.72,"body":"with. That's a very vague"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":227.14,"endTime":229.72,"body":"definition, I'm aware."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":230.65,"endTime":232.9,"body":"So it's a kind of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":230.65,"endTime":232.9,"body":"nebulous thing. It's not like"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":232.9,"endTime":235.12,"body":"there's a list where you could"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":232.9,"endTime":235.12,"body":"look up all the demons."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":235.9,"endTime":238.51,"body":"There are certainly"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":235.9,"endTime":238.51,"body":"fuzzy edges to the demonic in"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":238.51,"endTime":242.32,"body":"Mesopotamia. One of the things I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":238.51,"endTime":242.32,"body":"find interesting is that we have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":242.32,"endTime":245.41,"body":"this whole discussion, for"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":242.32,"endTime":245.41,"body":"example, of how we define magic,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":245.44,"endTime":248.89,"body":"and there's a lot of scholarship"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":245.44,"endTime":248.89,"body":"on this. And one of the key"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":248.89,"endTime":253.12,"body":"problems we have is that a lot"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":248.89,"endTime":253.12,"body":"of our approaches fall under"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":253.12,"endTime":256.63,"body":"this rubric that we call ... the"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":253.12,"endTime":256.63,"body":"descriptive definitional"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":256.63,"endTime":262.12,"body":"approach. So we define magic not"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":256.63,"endTime":262.12,"body":"by necessarily what it is, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":262.12,"endTime":266.74,"body":"by the tools that characterise"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":262.12,"endTime":266.74,"body":"magic and ritual in Mesopotamia."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":267.52,"endTime":271.48,"body":"This is problematic immediately,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":267.52,"endTime":271.48,"body":"you can see: we define magic, by"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":271.48,"endTime":275.53,"body":"the things that are used to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":271.48,"endTime":275.53,"body":"conduct magic, which are"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":275.53,"endTime":279.07,"body":"themselves magical, because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":275.53,"endTime":279.07,"body":"they're used to conduct magical"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":279.07,"endTime":283.0,"body":"ritual. It's a little bit of a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":279.07,"endTime":283.0,"body":"snake eating its own tail."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":284.08,"endTime":287.17,"body":"When I grew up, I"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":284.08,"endTime":287.17,"body":"don't remember ever believing in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":287.17,"endTime":291.28,"body":"demons. And I don't remember"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":287.17,"endTime":291.28,"body":"anyone ever telling me that they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":291.28,"endTime":294.43,"body":"believed in demons either. So"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":291.28,"endTime":294.43,"body":"it's slightly tricky for me to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":294.43,"endTime":298.03,"body":"get my mind into the head of a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":294.43,"endTime":298.03,"body":"Mesopotamian, and to imagine"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":298.03,"endTime":301.15,"body":"what it'd really be like to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":298.03,"endTime":301.15,"body":"experience a world full of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":301.24,"endTime":306.16,"body":"demons. This summer, though,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":301.24,"endTime":306.16,"body":"there was a story from American"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":306.16,"endTime":310.15,"body":"politics that went viral, and it"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":306.16,"endTime":310.15,"body":"was related to demons and how"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":310.15,"endTime":314.11,"body":"they can influence the world."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":310.15,"endTime":314.11,"body":"And that perhaps helps us form a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":314.11,"endTime":317.86,"body":"bridge. So could you maybe just"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":314.11,"endTime":317.86,"body":"touch on that story, please? And"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":317.86,"endTime":321.28,"body":"explain to us what it would have"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":317.86,"endTime":321.28,"body":"been like for someone in ancient"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":321.28,"endTime":325.48,"body":"Mesopotamia to live a life in a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":321.28,"endTime":325.48,"body":"demon haunted world."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":327.91,"endTime":330.94,"body":"Yes, so"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":327.91,"endTime":330.94,"body":"demons rise and fall in modern"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":330.94,"endTime":334.57,"body":"popularity. One of the things we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":330.94,"endTime":334.57,"body":"saw this summer was, of course,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":334.57,"endTime":339.82,"body":"that when Trump was touting the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":334.57,"endTime":339.82,"body":"virtues of one or another"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":339.82,"endTime":343.42,"body":"certain approach to treating the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":339.82,"endTime":343.42,"body":"COVID pandemic that had not"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":343.42,"endTime":348.16,"body":"necessarily been backed by"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":343.42,"endTime":348.16,"body":"science, he quoted a doctor by"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":348.16,"endTime":351.97,"body":"the name of Stella Immanuel,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":348.16,"endTime":351.97,"body":"who, when the internet dug a bit"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":351.97,"endTime":355.96,"body":"deeper, realised that one of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":351.97,"endTime":355.96,"body":"things she's also known for is a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":355.96,"endTime":361.45,"body":"certain belief in the impact of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":355.96,"endTime":361.45,"body":"demons, particularly on"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":361.66,"endTime":364.15,"body":"illnesses that would strike"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":361.66,"endTime":364.15,"body":"people, usually women and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":364.15,"endTime":370.27,"body":"gynecological ailments. So this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":364.15,"endTime":370.27,"body":"idea suddenly reintroduced of a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":370.27,"endTime":375.82,"body":"medical doctor, still espousing"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":370.27,"endTime":375.82,"body":"a belief in the quote unquote"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":375.82,"endTime":379.9,"body":"reality, shall we say, of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":375.82,"endTime":379.9,"body":"demonic attacks, and their"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":379.9,"endTime":386.02,"body":"effect on the body is something"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":379.9,"endTime":386.02,"body":"that to our modern mind is very"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":386.02,"endTime":389.2,"body":"much removed from how we would"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":386.02,"endTime":389.2,"body":"think of the world. But"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":389.2,"endTime":393.04,"body":"interestingly, when we hop back"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":389.2,"endTime":393.04,"body":"to Mesopotamia, the idea of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":393.07,"endTime":397.21,"body":"demons and illness, or demons"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":393.07,"endTime":397.21,"body":"affecting people and affecting"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":397.21,"endTime":401.59,"body":"society, is very present in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":397.21,"endTime":401.59,"body":"their texts and how they're"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":401.59,"endTime":405.79,"body":"talking about and interacting"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":401.59,"endTime":405.79,"body":"with the world. Yeah, we are not"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":405.79,"endTime":409.84,"body":"so far removed from Mesopotamia"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":405.79,"endTime":409.84,"body":"in some regards. Actually, they"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":409.84,"endTime":412.72,"body":"were probably a lot more, I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":409.84,"endTime":412.72,"body":"think, scientific and methodical"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":412.72,"endTime":415.9,"body":"in their approach, then, you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":412.72,"endTime":415.9,"body":"know, demonic STDs."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":417.4,"endTime":420.13,"body":"How many demons are"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":417.4,"endTime":420.13,"body":"there? Is it just one or two"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":420.13,"endTime":422.89,"body":"particularly malignant"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":420.13,"endTime":422.89,"body":"creatures? Or is their whole"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":422.89,"endTime":424.03,"body":"world of them out there?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":424.9,"endTime":427.78,"body":"The term"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":424.9,"endTime":427.78,"body":"I'm fond of is something a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":427.78,"endTime":431.5,"body":"scholar, an assyriologist, Frans"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":427.78,"endTime":431.5,"body":"Wiggerman, who calls it the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":431.53,"endTime":434.86,"body":"Mesopotamian pandemonium. I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":431.53,"endTime":434.86,"body":"believe he's stealing this from"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":434.86,"endTime":440.44,"body":"Paradise Lost in point of fact."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":434.86,"endTime":440.44,"body":"So we do have this full host of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":440.47,"endTime":444.16,"body":"demonic creatures that were very"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":440.47,"endTime":444.16,"body":"much an accepted and integrated"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":444.16,"endTime":447.37,"body":"part of the Mesopotamian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":444.16,"endTime":447.37,"body":"worldview. And when I talked a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":447.37,"endTime":451.15,"body":"bit before about demons being"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":447.37,"endTime":451.15,"body":"fuzzy categories, part of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":451.15,"endTime":454.81,"body":"problem is that a lot of these"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":451.15,"endTime":454.81,"body":"creatures can be malevolent. But"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":454.81,"endTime":459.1,"body":"they can also act benevolently"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":454.81,"endTime":459.1,"body":"in texts. We can have a text"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":459.1,"endTime":464.44,"body":"where the udug who is a demon,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":459.1,"endTime":464.44,"body":"but is also a word for demons as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":464.44,"endTime":469.84,"body":"a whole. The evil udug, the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":464.44,"endTime":469.84,"body":"udughul, hul being the Sumerian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":469.84,"endTime":475.51,"body":"word for evil or malevolent"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":469.84,"endTime":475.51,"body":"actions, is opposed by the good"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":475.54,"endTime":479.41,"body":"udug, the udugsaga. And this can"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":475.54,"endTime":479.41,"body":"happen within the same"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":479.41,"endTime":484.09,"body":"incantation. So for them, this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":479.41,"endTime":484.09,"body":"idea of a supernatural being or"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":484.09,"endTime":488.95,"body":"being with this ability to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":484.09,"endTime":488.95,"body":"impact the world, doing so"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":488.95,"endTime":493.21,"body":"negatively, but also positively,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":488.95,"endTime":493.21,"body":"was not something that caused"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":493.21,"endTime":497.65,"body":"any theological internal debate"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":493.21,"endTime":497.65,"body":"or angst. This was perfectly"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":497.65,"endTime":500.95,"body":"acceptable for many of these"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":497.65,"endTime":500.95,"body":"creatures, at least."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":502.6,"endTime":504.82,"body":"So there are not"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":502.6,"endTime":504.82,"body":"just bad demons, there are good"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":504.82,"endTime":507.46,"body":"demons as well, and they can"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":504.82,"endTime":507.46,"body":"help you fight the bad ones."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":507.85,"endTime":510.13,"body":"Yes, I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":507.85,"endTime":510.13,"body":"mean, there are some that are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":510.16,"endTime":514.93,"body":"fairly unambiguously malevolent."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":510.16,"endTime":514.93,"body":"I try and avoid using the word"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":514.96,"endTime":518.11,"body":"\"evil\". I think it has a lot of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":514.96,"endTime":518.11,"body":"Bible baggage that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":518.11,"endTime":521.71,"body":"really apply to the Mesopotamian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":518.11,"endTime":521.71,"body":"point of view. But if we think"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":521.71,"endTime":523.84,"body":"of them in terms of their"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":521.71,"endTime":523.84,"body":"actions, rather than their"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":523.84,"endTime":526.21,"body":"nature, it's an easier way to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":523.84,"endTime":526.21,"body":"approach them."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":527.32,"endTime":530.11,"body":"Can a single demon"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":527.32,"endTime":530.11,"body":"be both malevolent and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":530.11,"endTime":532.39,"body":"benevolent, depending on the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":530.11,"endTime":532.39,"body":"situation?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":533.05,"endTime":536.08,"body":"Very much"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":533.05,"endTime":536.08,"body":"so. The three that we see swap"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":536.08,"endTime":540.01,"body":"the most are the udug, which is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":536.08,"endTime":540.01,"body":"probably the most shapeless and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":540.01,"endTime":544.57,"body":"the most malleable. We also have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":540.01,"endTime":544.57,"body":"a demon called the alad, or the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":544.57,"endTime":548.11,"body":"shedu in Akkadian, that does"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":544.57,"endTime":548.11,"body":"also seem to move back and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":548.11,"endTime":552.64,"body":"forth. And then a third figure"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":548.11,"endTime":552.64,"body":"called the lama is almost always"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":552.64,"endTime":556.72,"body":"benevolent, but we have a few"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":552.64,"endTime":556.72,"body":"texts where they appear much in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":556.72,"endTime":561.07,"body":"this malevolent capacity. One of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":556.72,"endTime":561.07,"body":"the things to remember is that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":561.07,"endTime":564.37,"body":"these incantations have a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":561.07,"endTime":564.37,"body":"literary structure. So if we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":564.37,"endTime":567.7,"body":"think of them as stories in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":564.37,"endTime":567.7,"body":"their own way, there's a sense"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":567.7,"endTime":572.26,"body":"of what figure is going to act"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":567.7,"endTime":572.26,"body":"here in what way. All of this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":572.26,"endTime":575.02,"body":"said, these are only three"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":572.26,"endTime":575.02,"body":"demons out of again this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":575.02,"endTime":580.27,"body":"pandemonium, so we have demons"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":575.02,"endTime":580.27,"body":"that might be times of day. We"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":580.27,"endTime":582.94,"body":"have demons that are weather"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":580.27,"endTime":582.94,"body":"phenomena. We have demons that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":582.94,"endTime":588.46,"body":"are unlucky incidents or unlucky"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":582.94,"endTime":588.46,"body":"periods. We have demons with"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":588.46,"endTime":592.33,"body":"much more qualified"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":588.46,"endTime":592.33,"body":"personalities, the two big ones"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":592.33,"endTime":596.56,"body":"there are Lamashtu and pazuzu,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":592.33,"endTime":596.56,"body":"which are probably the demonic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":596.56,"endTime":599.23,"body":"figures that people might know"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":596.56,"endTime":599.23,"body":"in Mesopotamia."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":599.95,"endTime":601.33,"body":"Where do we know"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":599.95,"endTime":601.33,"body":"them from?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":601.57,"endTime":604.24,"body":"So Pazuzu"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":601.57,"endTime":604.24,"body":"is our much maligned demonic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":604.24,"endTime":608.59,"body":"antagonist from the Exorcist"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":604.24,"endTime":608.59,"body":"book that was then turned into a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":608.59,"endTime":613.84,"body":"sequence of films. And recently"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":608.59,"endTime":613.84,"body":"a show on Fox, actually."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":614.32,"endTime":618.85,"body":"Unfortunately, it was cancelled."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":614.32,"endTime":618.85,"body":"But Pazuzu is this figure in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":618.85,"endTime":622.39,"body":"Mesopotamia. And I say he's much"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":618.85,"endTime":622.39,"body":"maligned, because while he's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":622.39,"endTime":625.33,"body":"turned into a demon in the film"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":622.39,"endTime":625.33,"body":"and possesses a child and her"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":625.33,"endTime":628.18,"body":"head spins around, and she"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":625.33,"endTime":628.18,"body":"vomits up pea soup--these are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":628.18,"endTime":630.49,"body":"scenes people are probably"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":628.18,"endTime":630.49,"body":"familiar with, they've seen"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":630.49,"endTime":635.17,"body":"horror films--in Mesopotamia, he"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":630.49,"endTime":635.17,"body":"was actually--even though very"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":635.17,"endTime":639.79,"body":"much described as demonic--was"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":635.17,"endTime":639.79,"body":"the counter to the much more"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":639.79,"endTime":645.94,"body":"dangerous figure of Lamashtu. So"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":639.79,"endTime":645.94,"body":"Lamashtu has her own genealogy."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":646.63,"endTime":651.1,"body":"She's originally a goddess, and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":646.63,"endTime":651.1,"body":"then she, to be blunt, likes"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":651.1,"endTime":654.7,"body":"eating babies a bit too much,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":651.1,"endTime":654.7,"body":"and is kicked out of the heavens"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":655.57,"endTime":659.98,"body":"and is forced to roam about on"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":655.57,"endTime":659.98,"body":"Earth as a demon. So Lamashtu is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":659.98,"endTime":664.63,"body":"very much both an inversion of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":659.98,"endTime":664.63,"body":"this idea of motherhood. She has"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":664.66,"endTime":668.71,"body":"many fingered hands or talents,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":664.66,"endTime":668.71,"body":"but she grasps snakes in them."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":668.74,"endTime":671.74,"body":"She has pendulous breasts, but"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":668.74,"endTime":671.74,"body":"she suckles wild animals at"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":671.74,"endTime":676.75,"body":"them, she creeps in to strangle"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":671.74,"endTime":676.75,"body":"children. She talks about"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":676.75,"endTime":679.84,"body":"wanting to feed them at her"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":676.75,"endTime":679.84,"body":"breasts, but her milk is poison."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":680.2,"endTime":684.58,"body":"This complete version of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":680.2,"endTime":684.58,"body":"idea of how infants and children"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":684.58,"endTime":687.13,"body":"should be fostered in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":684.58,"endTime":687.13,"body":"Mesopotamia. And also a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":687.13,"endTime":691.87,"body":"convenient way of explaining, we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":687.13,"endTime":691.87,"body":"imagine, a quite prevalent early"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":691.87,"endTime":695.23,"body":"childhood death rate in a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":691.87,"endTime":695.23,"body":"pre-modern society."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":695.65,"endTime":699.16,"body":"That's pretty scary."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":695.65,"endTime":699.16,"body":"How about Pazuzu? How do you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":699.16,"endTime":701.8,"body":"scare off something as"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":699.16,"endTime":701.8,"body":"terrifying as Lamashtu?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":702.68,"endTime":704.48,"body":"Well, a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":702.68,"endTime":704.48,"body":"lot of demons are fairly"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":704.51,"endTime":707.42,"body":"agendered. They're even"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":704.51,"endTime":707.42,"body":"described in texts as neither"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":707.42,"endTime":711.77,"body":"male nor female. Lamashtu, who"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":707.42,"endTime":711.77,"body":"is very feminine in her"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":711.77,"endTime":716.33,"body":"characteristics, is opposed by"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":711.77,"endTime":716.33,"body":"Pazuzu, who is similarly quite"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":716.33,"endTime":721.79,"body":"masculine. So Pazuzu has this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":716.33,"endTime":721.79,"body":"snarling, bestial face. He often"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":721.79,"endTime":726.08,"body":"has four wings, taloned hands"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":721.79,"endTime":726.08,"body":"and feet. He has an erect"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":726.08,"endTime":727.4,"body":"snake-headed penis ..."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":727.64,"endTime":728.75,"body":"A trouser snake?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":729.08,"endTime":731.48,"body":"Yes,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":729.08,"endTime":731.48,"body":"exactly, quite literally in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":731.48,"endTime":736.91,"body":"point of fact. And we see"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":731.48,"endTime":736.91,"body":"pendants of him either in full"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":736.91,"endTime":741.02,"body":"form, or more often just his"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":736.91,"endTime":741.02,"body":"snarling head with a loop where"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":741.02,"endTime":743.93,"body":"they could clearly be threaded"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":741.02,"endTime":743.93,"body":"and then worn, we assume"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":743.96,"endTime":747.35,"body":"primarily by pregnant women,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":743.96,"endTime":747.35,"body":"which was also a favorite target"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":747.35,"endTime":751.25,"body":"of Lamashtu. So Pazuzu, who has"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":747.35,"endTime":751.25,"body":"also all of this male"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":751.25,"endTime":755.63,"body":"iconography, very much attached"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":751.25,"endTime":755.63,"body":"to him. He describes himself as,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":755.63,"endTime":759.41,"body":"you know, \"I am Pazuzu. I am"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":755.63,"endTime":759.41,"body":"king of the evil wind demons\"."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":759.89,"endTime":762.71,"body":"And in one of his incantations,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":759.89,"endTime":762.71,"body":"he speaks always in the first"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":762.71,"endTime":766.58,"body":"person, he talks about climbing"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":762.71,"endTime":766.58,"body":"a mighty mountain that quaked."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":766.88,"endTime":770.36,"body":"And while it's difficult to say"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":766.88,"endTime":770.36,"body":"with absolute certainty, some of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":770.36,"endTime":773.54,"body":"the arguments I've seen--and I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":770.36,"endTime":773.54,"body":"agree with them--think that this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":773.54,"endTime":776.21,"body":"might have been a woman, you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":773.54,"endTime":776.21,"body":"know, heavily gravid, probably"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":776.21,"endTime":779.21,"body":"in difficult labour. So the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":776.21,"endTime":779.21,"body":"mighty mountain being her ..."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":779.57,"endTime":783.08,"body":"her heavily pregnant belly going"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":779.57,"endTime":783.08,"body":"through this labor, and Pazuzu"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":783.08,"endTime":787.04,"body":"opposing the threat Lamashtu"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":783.08,"endTime":787.04,"body":"poses, quite literally sat atop"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":787.04,"endTime":787.34,"body":"her."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":788.14,"endTime":790.54,"body":"You mentioned some"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":788.14,"endTime":790.54,"body":"of the different types of demon,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":790.54,"endTime":794.98,"body":"with some of them related very"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":790.54,"endTime":794.98,"body":"closely to specific times. But"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":794.98,"endTime":797.86,"body":"where do they live in relation"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":794.98,"endTime":797.86,"body":"to the physical world as we"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":797.86,"endTime":801.76,"body":"would understand it? Is there a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":797.86,"endTime":801.76,"body":"specific demon realm? Do they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":801.76,"endTime":804.49,"body":"live, you know, at the outskirts"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":801.76,"endTime":804.49,"body":"of the city? Or are they just"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":804.52,"endTime":805.21,"body":"everywhere?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":806.56,"endTime":807.76,"body":"When we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":806.56,"endTime":807.76,"body":"talk about these figures in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":807.76,"endTime":811.27,"body":"Mesopotamia, there's often a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":807.76,"endTime":811.27,"body":"divide between, you know,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":811.27,"endTime":815.44,"body":"monsters, which also posed a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":811.27,"endTime":815.44,"body":"threat to society and mankind,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":815.44,"endTime":820.51,"body":"but then, monsters tend to be"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":815.44,"endTime":820.51,"body":"attached to specific places, the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":820.51,"endTime":824.02,"body":"distant wilderness. If we think"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":820.51,"endTime":824.02,"body":"about the text of Gilgamesh,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":824.08,"endTime":827.71,"body":"when they fight Huwawa or"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":824.08,"endTime":827.71,"body":"Humbaba, he's off in the cedar"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":827.71,"endTime":831.07,"body":"forest. And a bit like Odysseus,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":827.71,"endTime":831.07,"body":"if you don't go to where these"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":831.07,"endTime":835.0,"body":"creatures are, they're not going"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":831.07,"endTime":835.0,"body":"to bother you as much. So demons"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":835.03,"endTime":839.44,"body":"are also located on the edges by"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":835.03,"endTime":839.44,"body":"nature. One of the things we see"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":839.44,"endTime":843.28,"body":"with Lamashtu when she's being"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":839.44,"endTime":843.28,"body":"driven away by Pazuzu, we have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":843.28,"endTime":847.3,"body":"these great amulets where he's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":843.28,"endTime":847.3,"body":"driving her away from the city"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":847.3,"endTime":852.22,"body":"where people live. And she's set"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":847.3,"endTime":852.22,"body":"atop a donkey, which is itself"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":852.4,"endTime":856.33,"body":"on a boat crossing a river, the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":852.4,"endTime":856.33,"body":"idea that she's being driven out"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":856.33,"endTime":860.35,"body":"of the city, away from the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":856.33,"endTime":860.35,"body":"cultivated fields and lands into"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":860.35,"endTime":864.01,"body":"the desert, and then across the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":860.35,"endTime":864.01,"body":"river and eventually into the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":864.01,"endTime":867.91,"body":"nether world itself, which if we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":864.01,"endTime":867.91,"body":"were to give the demons a home,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":868.27,"endTime":872.89,"body":"would be the closest equivalent."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":868.27,"endTime":872.89,"body":"In Mesopotamia, one of the many"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":872.89,"endTime":876.7,"body":"words for the netherworld was"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":872.89,"endTime":876.7,"body":"KUR, which is also the Sumerian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":876.7,"endTime":880.54,"body":"word, literally for \"mountain\"."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":876.7,"endTime":880.54,"body":"So the mountains that bordered"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":880.54,"endTime":885.01,"body":"Mesopotamia directly to the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":880.54,"endTime":885.01,"body":"north were seen as a natural"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":885.01,"endTime":890.17,"body":"gateway to this netherworld"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":885.01,"endTime":890.17,"body":"location. Demons have the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":890.17,"endTime":894.25,"body":"ability to drift in and out a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":890.17,"endTime":894.25,"body":"bit more than monsters did, so"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":894.25,"endTime":898.6,"body":"they could pose a threat in a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":894.25,"endTime":898.6,"body":"way that the more geographically"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":898.6,"endTime":900.58,"body":"bound creatures could not."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":901.63,"endTime":904.54,"body":"Who controls these"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":901.63,"endTime":904.54,"body":"creatures, then? Do they make"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":904.54,"endTime":908.14,"body":"their own decisions? Are they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":904.54,"endTime":908.14,"body":"sent by the gods? Or could you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":908.14,"endTime":910.15,"body":"invoke them as an ordinary"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":908.14,"endTime":910.15,"body":"person?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":910.54,"endTime":912.88,"body":"Generally,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":910.54,"endTime":912.88,"body":"we see this happen, I would say"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":912.88,"endTime":917.47,"body":"in a few different ways. So"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":912.88,"endTime":917.47,"body":"while the gods have this ability"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":917.47,"endTime":920.83,"body":"to also impact the world,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":917.47,"endTime":920.83,"body":"they're seen as doing it through"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":920.83,"endTime":925.48,"body":"these legitimated supernatural"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":920.83,"endTime":925.48,"body":"or, or magical means. They're an"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":925.48,"endTime":929.35,"body":"expression of their own divine"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":925.48,"endTime":929.35,"body":"ability. Demons do this as well,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":929.35,"endTime":934.6,"body":"but it's an un-legitimate power."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":929.35,"endTime":934.6,"body":"Most demons, it does seem, act"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":934.6,"endTime":938.23,"body":"on their own authority. We have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":934.6,"endTime":938.23,"body":"texts where demons even threaten"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":938.23,"endTime":943.12,"body":"society. The demons who are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":938.23,"endTime":943.12,"body":"sometimes gods--I wrote my"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":943.12,"endTime":946.36,"body":"dissertation on the Sebettu,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":943.12,"endTime":946.36,"body":"there are seven of them, and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":946.36,"endTime":950.92,"body":"that's what the word means. They"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":946.36,"endTime":950.92,"body":"in certain texts even threaten"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":950.92,"endTime":953.95,"body":"the gods themselves, and the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":950.92,"endTime":953.95,"body":"gods appear frightened of them."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":955.12,"endTime":959.53,"body":"When we have figures such as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":955.12,"endTime":959.53,"body":"Lamashtu, even though she's in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":959.56,"endTime":963.58,"body":"some traditions operating"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":959.56,"endTime":963.58,"body":"outside of divine authority, we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":963.58,"endTime":966.55,"body":"do see some variant traditions"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":963.58,"endTime":966.55,"body":"such as the flood myth,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":966.58,"endTime":970.75,"body":"Atrahasis, where she almost is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":966.58,"endTime":970.75,"body":"described as being put on Earth"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":970.75,"endTime":974.86,"body":"as a check against population."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":970.75,"endTime":974.86,"body":"So there's more of this idea"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":974.86,"endTime":978.1,"body":"that demons even though they're"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":974.86,"endTime":978.1,"body":"chaotic, might be a part of how"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":978.1,"endTime":982.75,"body":"the world is meant to function."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":978.1,"endTime":982.75,"body":"I think another good example of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":982.75,"endTime":989.5,"body":"this is the demon / ghost, we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":982.75,"endTime":989.5,"body":"could say, the Ardat lili, who"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":989.5,"endTime":993.07,"body":"is a young woman who dies"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":989.5,"endTime":993.07,"body":"unmarried, and this is something"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":993.07,"endTime":997.09,"body":"of a perversion of the natural"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":993.07,"endTime":997.09,"body":"order in Mesopotamia. So to tie"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":997.09,"endTime":1001.32,"body":"back to our earlier mention of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":997.09,"endTime":1001.32,"body":"Trump and demon sex, the Ardat"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1001.32,"endTime":1005.7,"body":"lili becomes a succubus-like"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1001.32,"endTime":1005.7,"body":"figure when she dies. She's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1005.7,"endTime":1010.44,"body":"driven by this desire for a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1005.7,"endTime":1010.44,"body":"spouse of some kind, and she"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1010.44,"endTime":1014.19,"body":"drifts in on the wind to haunt"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1010.44,"endTime":1014.19,"body":"young men while they sleep."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1014.88,"endTime":1018.48,"body":"There's also a male version, but"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1014.88,"endTime":1018.48,"body":"he's not nearly as popular in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1018.48,"endTime":1022.59,"body":"Mesopotamia. So by and large, I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1018.48,"endTime":1022.59,"body":"would say we do see demons"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1022.59,"endTime":1025.98,"body":"operating on their own volition"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1022.59,"endTime":1025.98,"body":"and posing a threat that's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1026.04,"endTime":1030.72,"body":"unchecked, but a few do seem to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1026.04,"endTime":1030.72,"body":"fall under a sort of order to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1030.72,"endTime":1031.62,"body":"the universe."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1033.14,"endTime":1035.69,"body":"Once they arrive in"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1033.14,"endTime":1035.69,"body":"the earthly realm, from wherever"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1035.69,"endTime":1039.02,"body":"it is they come from, do they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1035.69,"endTime":1039.02,"body":"attack at random? Or do they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1039.02,"endTime":1040.52,"body":"have specific targets?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1041.47,"endTime":1043.3,"body":"For some,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1041.47,"endTime":1043.3,"body":"such as the Ardat lili I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1043.3,"endTime":1047.89,"body":"mentioned, there's very much a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1043.3,"endTime":1047.89,"body":"specific prey. For Lamashtu,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1047.92,"endTime":1051.91,"body":"even though she can be fairly"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1047.92,"endTime":1051.91,"body":"equal opportunity, she tends to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1051.91,"endTime":1055.45,"body":"target pregnant women, infants,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1051.91,"endTime":1055.45,"body":"young children."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1055.66,"endTime":1058.6,"body":"But do we see"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1055.66,"endTime":1058.6,"body":"specific individuals targeted?"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1059.2,"endTime":1061.6,"body":"Is it like you could do"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1059.2,"endTime":1061.6,"body":"something wrong and the demon"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1061.6,"endTime":1064.54,"body":"would be a punishment for that?"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1061.6,"endTime":1064.54,"body":"Are they just looking for, say,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1064.54,"endTime":1066.46,"body":"the first pregnant woman they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1064.54,"endTime":1066.46,"body":"come across?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1067.39,"endTime":1070.18,"body":"We do see"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1067.39,"endTime":1070.18,"body":"individual people targeted by"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1070.21,"endTime":1074.95,"body":"demonic figures. Whether there's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1070.21,"endTime":1074.95,"body":"specifically a, you know, if you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1074.95,"endTime":1078.97,"body":"do this wrong, a demon will come"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1074.95,"endTime":1078.97,"body":"and strike you down, that's not"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1078.97,"endTime":1083.53,"body":"a causal relationship we see as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1078.97,"endTime":1083.53,"body":"much. One of the figures,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1083.56,"endTime":1087.49,"body":"straddles the line of being a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1083.56,"endTime":1087.49,"body":"demon, is this figure of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1087.49,"endTime":1092.29,"body":"witch. Who even though it ..."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1087.49,"endTime":1092.29,"body":"she's attached individual people"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1092.29,"endTime":1096.19,"body":"we have rare, but still present"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1092.29,"endTime":1096.19,"body":"witchcraft accusations in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1096.19,"endTime":1100.93,"body":"Mesopotamia. Most often she's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1096.19,"endTime":1100.93,"body":"described as this chaotic and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1100.93,"endTime":1106.57,"body":"demonic figure. And there she"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1100.93,"endTime":1106.57,"body":"seems to attack individuals in a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1106.57,"endTime":1109.39,"body":"number of different and creative"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1106.57,"endTime":1109.39,"body":"ways."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1110.11,"endTime":1112.51,"body":"How would you tell"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1110.11,"endTime":1112.51,"body":"if you were being possessed by a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1112.51,"endTime":1115.3,"body":"demon? How would you work out"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1112.51,"endTime":1115.3,"body":"which one of them it was and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1115.3,"endTime":1116.23,"body":"what it wanted?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1117.17,"endTime":1119.06,"body":"So if"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1117.17,"endTime":1119.06,"body":"you're suffering from ill"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1119.06,"endTime":1123.56,"body":"fortune, persistently, it could"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1119.06,"endTime":1123.56,"body":"be the result of a demon. If"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1123.56,"endTime":1127.28,"body":"you're ill, demons are often a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1123.56,"endTime":1127.28,"body":"vector for illness. Illness"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1127.28,"endTime":1132.44,"body":"itself could be demonised or it"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1127.28,"endTime":1132.44,"body":"could be seen as a demonic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1132.47,"endTime":1138.68,"body":"cause. When we look at how"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1132.47,"endTime":1138.68,"body":"someone identifies a demonic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1138.68,"endTime":1143.42,"body":"attack, and then opposes it,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1138.68,"endTime":1143.42,"body":"generally this falls under the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1143.45,"endTime":1147.53,"body":"purview of a figure called the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1143.45,"endTime":1147.53,"body":"ashipu, who is best translated,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1147.53,"endTime":1151.61,"body":"I think, as the Mesopotamian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1147.53,"endTime":1151.61,"body":"exorcist. But for us that word"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1151.61,"endTime":1154.13,"body":"has a lot of connotations, which"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1151.61,"endTime":1154.13,"body":"in Mesopotamia, wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1154.13,"endTime":1159.08,"body":"necessarily translate. The"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1154.13,"endTime":1159.08,"body":"ashipu was a learned and trained"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1159.08,"endTime":1163.16,"body":"professional. He was almost"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1159.08,"endTime":1163.16,"body":"always a male. He went through"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1163.19,"endTime":1169.07,"body":"quite extensive scribal and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1163.19,"endTime":1169.07,"body":"professional training. And"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1169.1,"endTime":1174.77,"body":"through this would deal with"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1169.1,"endTime":1174.77,"body":"both the effects of the demonic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1174.83,"endTime":1178.1,"body":"affliction, which were very"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1174.83,"endTime":1178.1,"body":"often physical ailments, as well"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1178.1,"endTime":1182.42,"body":"as removing the demon itself"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1178.1,"endTime":1182.42,"body":"that was causing them. We do"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1182.42,"endTime":1185.09,"body":"have another figure in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1182.42,"endTime":1185.09,"body":"Mesopotamia, the asu, who is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1185.09,"endTime":1189.59,"body":"more of a physician"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1185.09,"endTime":1189.59,"body":"pharmacologist, which is mostly"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1189.59,"endTime":1194.09,"body":"seen or at least interpreted as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1189.59,"endTime":1194.09,"body":"treating the effects, but not"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1194.09,"endTime":1197.33,"body":"the demon that would be causing"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1194.09,"endTime":1197.33,"body":"them, whereas the ashipu targets"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1197.33,"endTime":1201.23,"body":"the source. Those borders, like"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1197.33,"endTime":1201.23,"body":"many things, I've described are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1201.23,"endTime":1204.23,"body":"a bit fuzzy, but that's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1201.23,"endTime":1204.23,"body":"generally the line we draw."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1205.25,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"It's reassuring that"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1205.25,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"there's professional help out"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1207.41,"endTime":1211.4,"body":"there for this kind of problem."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1207.41,"endTime":1211.4,"body":"But how did they fight demons?"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1211.64,"endTime":1214.64,"body":"Do you really need specialist"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1211.64,"endTime":1214.64,"body":"help? Or could you learn a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1214.64,"endTime":1216.59,"body":"particular spell and do it on"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1214.64,"endTime":1216.59,"body":"the cheap?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1217.26,"endTime":1219.3,"body":"No, it's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1217.26,"endTime":1219.3,"body":"very dangerous to do so ,if you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1219.3,"endTime":1223.83,"body":"were not professionally trained."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1219.3,"endTime":1223.83,"body":"We actually have a few"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1223.83,"endTime":1226.8,"body":"references. For example, this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1223.83,"endTime":1226.8,"body":"one incantation that talks about"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1226.8,"endTime":1229.86,"body":"how a man without the protection"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1226.8,"endTime":1229.86,"body":"of his personal god--in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1230.25,"endTime":1233.73,"body":"Mesopotamia, you had a patron or"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1230.25,"endTime":1233.73,"body":"personal deity that not only"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1233.73,"endTime":1237.21,"body":"protected you, but also"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1233.73,"endTime":1237.21,"body":"interceded on your behalf to the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1237.21,"endTime":1240.03,"body":"big gods, because they had"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1237.21,"endTime":1240.03,"body":"better things to do than care"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1240.03,"endTime":1244.02,"body":"about you--and it describes how"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1240.03,"endTime":1244.02,"body":"this man without a personal"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1244.02,"endTime":1247.8,"body":"deity tried to approach and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1244.02,"endTime":1247.8,"body":"oppose the ardat lili, and in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1247.8,"endTime":1251.31,"body":"doing so he was attacked and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1247.8,"endTime":1251.31,"body":"beset upon by other demons, and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1251.31,"endTime":1256.29,"body":"he's dragged off to presumably a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1251.31,"endTime":1256.29,"body":"grisly fate. The ashipu had this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1256.32,"endTime":1260.88,"body":"host of abilities, but also of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1256.32,"endTime":1260.88,"body":"tools. So he had divine"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1260.88,"endTime":1265.29,"body":"legitimation. He was linked into"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1260.88,"endTime":1265.29,"body":"the power of other gods,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1265.29,"endTime":1270.87,"body":"particularly the god we know as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1265.29,"endTime":1270.87,"body":"Enki or Ea, Sumerian and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1270.87,"endTime":1274.95,"body":"Akkadian, who is seen as our god"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1270.87,"endTime":1274.95,"body":"of what we could call protective"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1274.95,"endTime":1280.11,"body":"or curative magic. He had divine"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1274.95,"endTime":1280.11,"body":"helpers. When I mentioned that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1280.11,"endTime":1282.78,"body":"the udug and lama could be"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1280.11,"endTime":1282.78,"body":"benevolent, when we see them"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1282.78,"endTime":1286.08,"body":"that way, they're very often"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1282.78,"endTime":1286.08,"body":"helping the ashipu. They're"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1286.08,"endTime":1289.62,"body":"described in texts as flanking"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1286.08,"endTime":1289.62,"body":"him on each side and creating a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1289.62,"endTime":1294.15,"body":"space of protection around him,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1289.62,"endTime":1294.15,"body":"or around the afflicted. He had"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1294.15,"endTime":1297.96,"body":"incantations, lots of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1294.15,"endTime":1297.96,"body":"incantations in his toolkit."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1298.43,"endTime":1300.65,"body":"Do we have any of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1298.43,"endTime":1300.65,"body":"these magic spells? Have they"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1300.65,"endTime":1301.34,"body":"survived?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1301.93,"endTime":1304.87,"body":"Oh, yes,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1301.93,"endTime":1304.87,"body":"we have loads. We have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1304.87,"endTime":1309.49,"body":"incantations as early as the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1304.87,"endTime":1309.49,"body":"third millennium. And all the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1309.49,"endTime":1312.16,"body":"way pretty much to the end of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1309.49,"endTime":1312.16,"body":"cuneiform tradition in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1312.16,"endTime":1315.07,"body":"Mesopotamia. So down into the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1312.16,"endTime":1315.07,"body":"late first millennium."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1315.43,"endTime":1317.74,"body":"Okay, give us our"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1315.43,"endTime":1317.74,"body":"best one. What have we got?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1318.23,"endTime":1320.57,"body":"I'll give"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1318.23,"endTime":1320.57,"body":"you a format. And then one that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1320.57,"endTime":1324.83,"body":"I particularly like, which falls"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1320.57,"endTime":1324.83,"body":"under that rubric. So we have a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1324.83,"endTime":1328.25,"body":"formula that shows up in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1324.83,"endTime":1328.25,"body":"exorcism incantations a lot is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1328.25,"endTime":1331.07,"body":"called the Marduk-Ea formula,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1328.25,"endTime":1331.07,"body":"which is where our"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1331.07,"endTime":1336.29,"body":"aforementioned god, Ea or Enki,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1331.07,"endTime":1336.29,"body":"is approached by the divine"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1336.29,"endTime":1341.36,"body":"stand-in for the exorcist, who"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1336.29,"endTime":1341.36,"body":"is Marduk or Asalluhi. And he"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1341.39,"endTime":1344.93,"body":"presents ... we talked about,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1341.39,"endTime":1344.93,"body":"you know, how do we know what"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1344.93,"endTime":1347.42,"body":"the demon is and how to oppose"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1344.93,"endTime":1347.42,"body":"them, and this is a big way that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1347.42,"endTime":1351.41,"body":"the demon is identified. The"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1347.42,"endTime":1351.41,"body":"divine stand-in approaches and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1351.41,"endTime":1356.6,"body":"enters before his father, \"My"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1351.41,"endTime":1356.6,"body":"father, I do not know, I do not"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1356.6,"endTime":1359.15,"body":"know. Here is ...\" and he"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1356.6,"endTime":1359.15,"body":"presents the problem, which is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1359.15,"endTime":1363.56,"body":"basically an overview of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1359.15,"endTime":1363.56,"body":"symptoms of the afflicted. And"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1363.56,"endTime":1367.4,"body":"he then responds, \"What can I"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1363.56,"endTime":1367.4,"body":"add for you. All that you know,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1367.4,"endTime":1370.43,"body":"I know\" [all that I know, you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1367.4,"endTime":1370.43,"body":"know!]. And then what happens,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1370.43,"endTime":1374.33,"body":"which is really neat, I think,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1370.43,"endTime":1374.33,"body":"is that Enki then goes \"Go, my"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1374.33,"endTime":1379.46,"body":"son!\" and commends the divine"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1374.33,"endTime":1379.46,"body":"stand-in to leave the temple."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1379.85,"endTime":1384.26,"body":"But in doing so, he also relays"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1379.85,"endTime":1384.26,"body":"a set of ritual instructions"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1384.26,"endTime":1387.83,"body":"that are what the exorcist is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1384.26,"endTime":1387.83,"body":"then to follow in order to cure"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1387.83,"endTime":1391.1,"body":"the patient. So he identifies"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1387.83,"endTime":1391.1,"body":"what the problem is, and then"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1391.1,"endTime":1395.9,"body":"also delivers the solution. And"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1391.1,"endTime":1395.9,"body":"in doing so, directly connects"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1395.9,"endTime":1400.61,"body":"the ashipu, the exorcist, to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1395.9,"endTime":1400.61,"body":"this divine legitimation. So"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1400.61,"endTime":1403.82,"body":"it's not his incantation--and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1400.61,"endTime":1403.82,"body":"this phrase even shows up in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1403.85,"endTime":1408.56,"body":"texts--\"the incantation is not"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1403.85,"endTime":1408.56,"body":"mine, it is of Enki\". So always"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1408.56,"endTime":1413.3,"body":"the ashipu is rooting himself in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1408.56,"endTime":1413.3,"body":"this divine power. This formula,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1413.3,"endTime":1416.96,"body":"which is so rote in certain"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1413.3,"endTime":1416.96,"body":"texts that the scribes will say,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1417.02,"endTime":1420.02,"body":"\"we'll just write the first few"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1417.02,"endTime":1420.02,"body":"signs of each line as a sort of,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1420.02,"endTime":1423.62,"body":"'Oh, you know what happens here."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1420.02,"endTime":1423.62,"body":"I don't need to bother'\". One"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1423.62,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"incantation I'm a fan of ... we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1423.62,"endTime":1428.36,"body":"see ... it's Old Babylonian, so"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1428.36,"endTime":1433.28,"body":"it's around the early second"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1428.36,"endTime":1433.28,"body":"millennium BC. It describes this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1433.28,"endTime":1437.84,"body":"demon called the asag, that's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1433.28,"endTime":1437.84,"body":"inhabiting the man. It talks"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1437.84,"endTime":1441.98,"body":"about how the evil asag-demon"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1437.84,"endTime":1441.98,"body":"covers his body like a garment."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1442.28,"endTime":1444.98,"body":"Here's a great mental image,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1442.28,"endTime":1444.98,"body":"this idea that it's literally"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1444.98,"endTime":1450.2,"body":"living inside his skin. And then"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1444.98,"endTime":1450.2,"body":"Enki, the lord of incantations,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1450.2,"endTime":1455.09,"body":"delivers the solution which is a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1450.2,"endTime":1455.09,"body":"scapegoat incantation. So here"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1455.09,"endTime":1457.91,"body":"this phrase, which we use in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1455.09,"endTime":1457.91,"body":"English of \"scapegoating"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1458.21,"endTime":1463.34,"body":"someone\" tracks back to this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1458.21,"endTime":1463.34,"body":"idea of taking, in this case, a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1463.34,"endTime":1468.86,"body":"goat, and substituting it for"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1463.34,"endTime":1468.86,"body":"the man. And so here in this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1468.86,"endTime":1473.03,"body":"text, it goes into great detail,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1468.86,"endTime":1473.03,"body":"says \"He set a scapegoat as a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1473.03,"endTime":1475.31,"body":"substitute. He set the head of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1473.03,"endTime":1475.31,"body":"the goat for the head of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1475.31,"endTime":1478.76,"body":"man, the neck for the neck, the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1475.31,"endTime":1478.76,"body":"chest for the chest, blood for"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1478.76,"endTime":1481.97,"body":"blood and innards for innards,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1478.76,"endTime":1481.97,"body":"right side for right side, left"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1481.97,"endTime":1486.68,"body":"side for left side, rib for rib"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1481.97,"endTime":1486.68,"body":"and limb for limb. And once all"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1486.68,"endTime":1488.81,"body":"of this has been done...\", and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1486.68,"endTime":1488.81,"body":"then unfortunately, the text"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1488.81,"endTime":1492.26,"body":"breaks off because this is often"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1488.81,"endTime":1492.26,"body":"what happens when we're reading"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1492.26,"endTime":1495.83,"body":"tablets that are 4000 years old,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1492.26,"endTime":1495.83,"body":"more or less, just when it's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1495.83,"endTime":1499.19,"body":"getting good, but we do see at"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1495.83,"endTime":1499.19,"body":"the end of it that the demon"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1499.22,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"seems to have been driven away,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1499.22,"endTime":1502.88,"body":"that he's burned away from the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1507.74,"body":"person. Very often we assume"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1502.88,"endTime":1507.74,"body":"that the goat--from parallel"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1507.74,"endTime":1510.89,"body":"rituals, as well as those in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1507.74,"endTime":1510.89,"body":"other related societies--would"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1511.73,"endTime":1514.19,"body":"either be driven into the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1511.73,"endTime":1514.19,"body":"wilderness or might have been"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1514.19,"endTime":1518.42,"body":"ritually killed. But there's"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1514.19,"endTime":1518.42,"body":"this idea that we've taken the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1518.42,"endTime":1522.14,"body":"demon and quite literally shoved"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1518.42,"endTime":1522.14,"body":"it into this substitute for the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1522.14,"endTime":1526.88,"body":"person. And then after doing so,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1522.14,"endTime":1526.88,"body":"the person is freed of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1526.88,"endTime":1531.17,"body":"affliction. And the poor goat is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1526.88,"endTime":1531.17,"body":"not, but that's its purpose in"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1531.17,"endTime":1532.16,"body":"the text as a whole."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1533.0,"endTime":1535.19,"body":"I can imagine if I"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1533.0,"endTime":1535.19,"body":"wasn't feeling particularly"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1535.19,"endTime":1538.43,"body":"well, if somebody turned up and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1535.19,"endTime":1538.43,"body":"did that, I'd be reassured that"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1538.43,"endTime":1541.91,"body":"something was being done to help"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1538.43,"endTime":1541.91,"body":"me. But it does seem like a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1541.91,"endTime":1545.39,"body":"system that's potentially open"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1541.91,"endTime":1545.39,"body":"to abuse. Is there any way you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1545.39,"endTime":1547.94,"body":"could check the credentials of"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1545.39,"endTime":1547.94,"body":"your exorcist?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1548.95,"endTime":1550.84,"body":"When we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1548.95,"endTime":1550.84,"body":"talk about the ashipu, he very"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1550.84,"endTime":1555.07,"body":"much is a learned and trained"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1550.84,"endTime":1555.07,"body":"professional. And he's someone"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1555.07,"endTime":1558.49,"body":"that's present in ... could"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1555.07,"endTime":1558.49,"body":"think of as the state"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1558.7,"endTime":1561.64,"body":"architecture of Mesopotamia,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1558.7,"endTime":1561.64,"body":"particularly in the first"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1561.64,"endTime":1566.2,"body":"millennium. So there's ashipus"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1561.64,"endTime":1566.2,"body":"that are attached to the king."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1566.56,"endTime":1569.74,"body":"One of my favorite examples from"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1566.56,"endTime":1569.74,"body":"the Neo-Assyrian period is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1569.74,"endTime":1574.78,"body":"actually from the northern city"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1569.74,"endTime":1574.78,"body":"of Ashur, where we have a family"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1574.81,"endTime":1580.96,"body":"of exorcists. We have texts that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1574.81,"endTime":1580.96,"body":"talk about one individual, and"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1580.96,"endTime":1584.62,"body":"then his son, and then his"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1580.96,"endTime":1584.62,"body":"grandson, all of whom are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1584.62,"endTime":1589.45,"body":"described as the exorcist, the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1584.62,"endTime":1589.45,"body":"ashipu, or another term, the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1589.45,"endTime":1593.41,"body":"mashmashu, which is a parallel"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1589.45,"endTime":1593.41,"body":"figure in this period, of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1593.41,"endTime":1597.04,"body":"city. So these are very highly"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1593.41,"endTime":1597.04,"body":"qualified and trained"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1597.04,"endTime":1601.78,"body":"individuals. That said, whether"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1597.04,"endTime":1601.78,"body":"it's possible that you had"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1601.78,"endTime":1604.6,"body":"someone who is offering some"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1601.78,"endTime":1604.6,"body":"sort of, what we could think of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1604.6,"endTime":1608.86,"body":"is almost like a hedgewitch, a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1604.6,"endTime":1608.86,"body":"less official, but perhaps"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1608.89,"endTime":1612.76,"body":"something that might still be"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1608.89,"endTime":1612.76,"body":"seen to work. It's certainly"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1612.76,"endTime":1617.05,"body":"possible. But since our records"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1612.76,"endTime":1617.05,"body":"tend to come from people who are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1617.08,"endTime":1620.32,"body":"operating in this more"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1617.08,"endTime":1620.32,"body":"professional sphere, in large"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1620.32,"endTime":1623.2,"body":"part, because those are the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1620.32,"endTime":1623.2,"body":"people writing the incantations"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1623.2,"endTime":1627.1,"body":"that we're then finding"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1623.2,"endTime":1627.1,"body":"millennia later and translating."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1627.94,"endTime":1631.3,"body":"It's not something that we"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1627.94,"endTime":1631.3,"body":"necessarily see direct evidence"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1631.3,"endTime":1635.53,"body":"for. That doesn't mean it wasn't"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1631.3,"endTime":1635.53,"body":"present. But we don't have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1635.53,"endTime":1638.02,"body":"tablets that indicate it one way"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1635.53,"endTime":1638.02,"body":"or the other."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1638.71,"endTime":1641.23,"body":"Okay, so there's"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1638.71,"endTime":1641.23,"body":"some quality control involved."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1641.89,"endTime":1644.86,"body":"It does sound potentially"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1641.89,"endTime":1644.86,"body":"expensive, though, if every time"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1644.86,"endTime":1647.5,"body":"you're ill, you have to hire"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1644.86,"endTime":1647.5,"body":"this highly trained specialist"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1647.5,"endTime":1649.99,"body":"to come and check you over to"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1647.5,"endTime":1649.99,"body":"see if you've been possessed by"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1649.99,"endTime":1654.07,"body":"a demon or not. The bills could"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1649.99,"endTime":1654.07,"body":"mount up quite quickly. How"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1654.07,"endTime":1657.13,"body":"often would you actually consult"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1654.07,"endTime":1657.13,"body":"an exorcist?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1657.99,"endTime":1660.96,"body":"We see"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1657.99,"endTime":1660.96,"body":"more records that indicate"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1660.96,"endTime":1665.55,"body":"people consulting diviners,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1660.96,"endTime":1665.55,"body":"particularly about more common"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1665.55,"endTime":1669.84,"body":"events, than people consulting"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1665.55,"endTime":1669.84,"body":"exorcists as to when they had to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1669.84,"endTime":1673.2,"body":"deal with ailments. I would say"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1669.84,"endTime":1673.2,"body":"certainly not necessarily a"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1673.2,"endTime":1676.89,"body":"daily event. But nor is it"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1673.2,"endTime":1676.89,"body":"something that would be seen as"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1676.89,"endTime":1682.44,"body":"unusual. The fun thing I think"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1676.89,"endTime":1682.44,"body":"about a lot of these texts is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1682.44,"endTime":1685.62,"body":"that the way that they thought"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1682.44,"endTime":1685.62,"body":"about demons is causing illness,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1686.85,"endTime":1689.94,"body":"you can see how it actually"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1686.85,"endTime":1689.94,"body":"would have worked to a degree."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1689.97,"endTime":1693.51,"body":"So if we look at some of these"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1689.97,"endTime":1693.51,"body":"texts, they talk about the demon"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1693.51,"endTime":1696.6,"body":"that is within the body of the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1693.51,"endTime":1696.6,"body":"man is causing the ailment. So"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1696.99,"endTime":1701.88,"body":"the man himself is contaminated"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1696.99,"endTime":1701.88,"body":"by this demonic presence as is"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1701.91,"endTime":1705.48,"body":"all of the things that he has"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1701.91,"endTime":1705.48,"body":"touched as, as the space he"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1705.48,"endTime":1710.34,"body":"inhabits. So these texts create"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1705.48,"endTime":1710.34,"body":"a quarantine essentially, of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1710.34,"endTime":1714.0,"body":"this afflicted individual, which"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1710.34,"endTime":1714.0,"body":"in its own way, would have from"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1714.0,"endTime":1717.33,"body":"what we understand of illness"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1714.0,"endTime":1717.33,"body":"from our modern scientific"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1717.33,"endTime":1721.47,"body":"perspective, helped limit its"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1717.33,"endTime":1721.47,"body":"spread to a certain degree."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1722.73,"endTime":1725.37,"body":"You've really whet"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1722.73,"endTime":1725.37,"body":"our appetite for demons. I"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1725.37,"endTime":1727.86,"body":"believe you have a book coming"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1725.37,"endTime":1727.86,"body":"out soon, don't you? Can you"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1727.86,"endTime":1728.88,"body":"tell us about that?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1729.32,"endTime":1732.23,"body":"Hopefully"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1729.32,"endTime":1732.23,"body":"next year. We'll see. It feels"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1732.23,"endTime":1736.07,"body":"like time itself has a has"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1732.23,"endTime":1736.07,"body":"become something of a fuzzy"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1736.07,"endTime":1740.42,"body":"concept. So I did my"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1736.07,"endTime":1740.42,"body":"dissertation on a group of seven"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1740.42,"endTime":1744.89,"body":"demons known as the sebettu,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1740.42,"endTime":1744.89,"body":"which are interesting because"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1744.89,"endTime":1748.46,"body":"they're not necessarily things"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1744.89,"endTime":1748.46,"body":"... they're not threats to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1748.49,"endTime":1752.54,"body":"individuals, as much as they are"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1748.49,"endTime":1752.54,"body":"to society as a whole. They're"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1752.54,"endTime":1757.82,"body":"much more cosmic-level threats."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1752.54,"endTime":1757.82,"body":"But at the same point, they also"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1757.82,"endTime":1762.29,"body":"eventually become integrated"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1757.82,"endTime":1762.29,"body":"into the divine sphere and the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1762.29,"endTime":1767.48,"body":"divine hierarchy. They move over"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1762.29,"endTime":1767.48,"body":"from the category of demonic to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1767.48,"endTime":1772.04,"body":"eventually the pantheon of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1767.48,"endTime":1772.04,"body":"Mesopotamia, first in the south,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1772.04,"endTime":1774.59,"body":"and then eventually the"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1772.04,"endTime":1774.59,"body":"Assyrians get a hold of them,"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1775.01,"endTime":1777.8,"body":"and they become these sort of"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1775.01,"endTime":1777.8,"body":"attack dogs of the Assyrian"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1777.8,"endTime":1782.69,"body":"Empire, but they maintain this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1777.8,"endTime":1782.69,"body":"very dangerous and chaotic"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1782.69,"endTime":1786.08,"body":"quality. It's part of what makes"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1782.69,"endTime":1786.08,"body":"them useful, but you just have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1786.08,"endTime":1790.16,"body":"to keep them occupied or they"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1786.08,"endTime":1790.16,"body":"turn on Assyria itself. In"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1790.16,"endTime":1792.74,"body":"certain texts, we see this"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1790.16,"endTime":1792.74,"body":"happen, actually. They get"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1792.74,"endTime":1795.92,"body":"bored, they don't have enough to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1792.74,"endTime":1795.92,"body":"do. There isn't enough"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1795.92,"endTime":1799.16,"body":"campaigning. There's a great"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1795.92,"endTime":1799.16,"body":"line where they complain that"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1799.16,"endTime":1802.4,"body":"their blades are corroded for"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1799.16,"endTime":1802.4,"body":"want of a slaughter."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1803.18,"endTime":1805.58,"body":"We can also keep up"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1803.18,"endTime":1805.58,"body":"with you on social media, can't"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1805.58,"endTime":1805.79,"body":"we?"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1806.3,"endTime":1809.18,"body":"I do have"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1806.3,"endTime":1809.18,"body":"a academic Twitter as I like to"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1809.18,"endTime":1813.35,"body":"say, which except for when I'm"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1809.18,"endTime":1813.35,"body":"crossing over into angry"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1813.35,"endTime":1816.11,"body":"politics is mostly focused on"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1813.35,"endTime":1816.11,"body":"Mesopotamia."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1817.49,"endTime":1820.04,"body":"Well, thank you very"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1817.49,"endTime":1820.04,"body":"much for your time, Gina. That"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1820.04,"endTime":1821.15,"body":"was very enlightening."},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1821.84,"endTime":1822.65,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Gina Konstantopoulos","startTime":1821.84,"endTime":1822.65,"body":"for having me."},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1824.63,"endTime":1826.76,"body":"And thank you for"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1824.63,"endTime":1826.76,"body":"listening to Thin End of the"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1826.76,"endTime":1830.45,"body":"Wedge. If you enjoy what we do,"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1826.76,"endTime":1830.45,"body":"please consider supporting us"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1830.45,"endTime":1836.3,"body":"via Patreon--that's"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1830.45,"endTime":1836.3,"body":"patreon.com/wedgepod. Even a"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1836.3,"endTime":1839.09,"body":"couple of pounds a month helps"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1836.3,"endTime":1839.09,"body":"keep the podcast going, and"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1839.09,"endTime":1841.61,"body":"brings us closer to the point"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1839.09,"endTime":1841.61,"body":"where we can make proper"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1841.61,"endTime":1845.81,"body":"translations into Middle Eastern"},{"speaker":"Jon Taylor","startTime":1841.61,"endTime":1845.81,"body":"languages. You can also support"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1845.81,"endTime":1850.1,"body":"simply"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1845.81,"endTime":1850.1,"body":"subscribe to the podcast; leave"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1850.1,"endTime":1853.22,"body":"us a five star review on iTunes"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1850.1,"endTime":1853.22,"body":"or your podcatcher of choice;"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1853.73,"endTime":1856.7,"body":"recommend us to your friends;"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1853.73,"endTime":1856.7,"body":"follow us on Twitter,"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1857.0,"endTime":1862.37,"body":"@wedge_pod. If you want the"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1857.0,"endTime":1862.37,"body":"latest podcast news, you can"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1862.37,"endTime":1865.58,"body":"sign up for our newsletter. You"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1862.37,"endTime":1865.58,"body":"can find all the links in the"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1865.58,"endTime":1875.87,"body":"show notes and on our website at"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1865.58,"endTime":1875.87,"body":"wedgpod.org. Thanks and I hope"},{"speaker":"us in other ways","startTime":1875.87,"endTime":1876.95,"body":"you'll join us next time."}]}