A Conversation with Susan Bennett

In this episode, Dr. Susan Bennett talks to us about building relationships, social justice, equity, and multicultural education. Susan is known for her work in multicultural children’s literature, arts and creative literacies, and culturally-responsive literacy practices. Her research and teaching are driven by issues of social justice. Notably, Dr. Bennett has worked with incarcerated youth to improve literacy rates and mental health.

To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2022, Oct. 25). A conversation with Susan Bennett. (Season 3, No. 10) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/3DD7-7D5C-8F9C-7CF1-9F0D-C

Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Transcript

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Lindsay Persohn: 0:10

Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. In this episode, Dr. Susan Bennett talks to us about building relationships, social justice, equity and multicultural education. Susan is known for her work and multicultural children's literature, arts and creative literacies and culturally responsive teaching practices. Her research and teaching are driven by issues of social justice. Notably Dr. Bennett has worked with incarcerated youth to improve literacy rates and mental health. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode. So pour a cup of your favorite drink. And join me your host, Lindsay Persohn. For classroom caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Susan, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.

Susan Bennett: 1:23

Thank you for having me, Lindsay.

Lindsay Persohn: 1:25

So from your own experiences and education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?

Susan Bennett: 1:33

So you know, everything about what I do is about social justice and equity, my research my teaching my service, when I was in my doctoral program, that's where I really started reflecting on what was it about my teaching, that made me a good culturally responsive professor or teacher educator, or teacher. And I ended up going back to my days in elementary school, you know, at that time, I was a select mute from kindergarten to second grade. And I really hadn't thought much about it, until I had students or students in the school that were select Mute. And so as a doc student, I started thinking about that. And at that time, I was going to a public school, kindergarten, first grade, and the first kindergarten, I was fine. I only talked to my mom, you know, my family. And then at school, I didn't talk to the students. I didn't talk to the teachers unless I really trusted them and felt comfortable. And so in first grade, I was not talking. And they started punishing me and my brother witnessed this. So I'd be sitting out in the hallway, you know, or I had to stay in for recess, because I wouldn't tell them, you know why I didn't have my coat to go outside. And it wasn't cold. It before I was ready, didn't have it. So my brother told my mom what was going on. And she pulled us out of that school. She's like, this is not happening. And so my mom, I knew all along that she wanted me to break a cycle because, you know, her sisters didn't graduate from high school, she wanted to go to college, and didn't know how to get the money. And so I knew that was very important. She also had that part of me that knew that women could do anything a man can do, I'm growing up in the 70s height of, you know, the women's movement. So that was kind of being instilled in me in not realising so she sent me to a private school, and my brother, and we are middle class, but we were going to a school where there were very wealthy families, but then they were middle class like us, but they really accepted diversity and valued that so you know, where they would have some of the parents come in and talk about the the Jewish holiday so that we knew what Rosh Hashana was, right? My best friend was Korean. And you know, and so I saw that value, even though it was a large range of children from different different backgrounds. Predominantly still white though, right? So anyway, so going through all of that I always wanted to be a veterinarian. And in that school, they just wanted me to be myself. And let me go, I acted out vocabulary words, you know, wrote notes to go to the restroom. So they let me be me. And eventually I started talking and they knew that would happen. So fast forward, go to Ohio State. And I'm not doing so well. I'm not ready for those organic chemistry classes, the physics classes. I'm like, well, I should get a backup degree. And so I started taking Women's Studies classes and fell in love with it. And that's where I started actually becoming an activist and understanding more about social justice and equity for someone other than women, you know, where I learned about racism and sexism and homophobia, I wanted to change the world. So I spent three years working in a veterinary clinic, I'm like, What am I going to do? women's Studies degree, how am I going to make a difference? I'm not growing, you know, working a vet, I'm not changing the world. And so I decided education was it. So getting my elementary ed degree. You know, I took a multicultural class, but you know, it was it was more of that, oh, well, let's have food from different cultures, that superficial level that, you know, I recognize now, let's not have the tacos, and egg rolls. That's not what multicultural education that's not what culturally responsive being is about. And Keith Barton, who was very well known Social Studies, and research, he was my methods professor, and we're still friends now. And he was the one who opened my eyes to the lies my teacher told me and the truth about Columbus. And we were reading about indigenous populations. I always had some connection with this probably romanticism of tourism, right? Of what we think of Native Americans. So they're so spiritual and cool. And, you know, so you get this right romantic ideology. And so I decided to move to the Dine or Navajo Reservation. And I didn't you know, at that point, I don't know that I understood what culturally responsive teaching was. But in that doctoral class, again, that was this was the other incident I really reflected on, you know, I became part of the community and I told my pre service teachers, it's about jumping into the story with them, and becoming part of that community, you know, going to the rodeos, going to the cake walks, and, you know, just really immersing yourself. When I taught in Cincinnati, I was on a double Dutch team with one of the kindergarten assistants, and one of the maintenance custodial workers. And so like, you know, it's about it's it is community, right. And so while I'm, at the end of the year, and I was getting ready to move back to Ohio, this grandmother, who was working in the first grade classroom, had her granddaughter was in my class in my kindergarten class. And she would watch like, all year round, I felt her eyes just watching me. And so, you know, I would walk by her in the mornings and say, Oktay Hello, right. And it was no, it was not a lot. I just felt her watching me. And so at the end of the year, my friend and I put together, we always did this big production. All the students would do, you know, traditional dances, and, you know, sometimes I teach them a song in Navajo, so we compiled music from the 50s to the 90s, just like, you know, 30 seconds of it. And I choreographed and once in a while the kids will choreograph different songs. So like, you know, in the 70s, we had Michael Jackson's ABC, but then in the 90s, we had his beat it, you know, we had Girls Just Want to Have Fun and, and we had staying alive. So the boys are doing the, you know, John Travolta movie. So I choreographed it, then we make tie dyes that all matched, and blue and white, which was our school colors. And then I had a outfit that kind of matched that. And so I was out there in front of all the parents and students dancing with the kids. So they made sure they remember how to do it. And that grandmother came up to me afterwards. And she said, I liked the way you danced with the children. And that just was the most monumental thing to me to feel like, she accepted me in that community. And so because of that, in my experience, I was reflecting then, as a doc student, realizing that's what it is, I built these relationships. I created this trust and I was part of that community. And I really think that informs a lot of who I am and the work I do.

Lindsay Persohn: 9:21

So you may not be surprised that community comes up in conversations for the show again and again and again. And what I'm what I'm learning is that it doesn't seem to really matter what angle someone approaches education or literacy from or if they are working in schools or working in, in research institutions. It all comes back to this idea of relationships and community and yeah, that's, that's so very important. I love that story of you. Really feeling that acceptance in a community that you were we're working hard to engage with, and I think it's a great aspiration for so many teachers. As to just really, as you said, Jump into the story, I really love that phrase, because I think that that's something that I've certainly aspired to do also is to become a part of a school community and to really invest myself my time and energy into ensuring that what I'm doing is relevant and and that it meshes with, with the community structures that are already there. So I really appreciate you highlighting that story for us, Susan.

Susan Bennett: 10:26

Well, it also tell my students, you know, to have a really successful school it is what it takes is to have that whole community, the parents, the administration, the staff, the custodians, the, you know, the secretaries, the students, you know, the teachers that it's, it's it is it's, you know, it's that community, and that's what makes it successful.

Lindsay Persohn: 10:49

Right. And I really don't, I don't know, if we get very far when we don't have that sense of community, when we don't have everybody sort of pulling in the same direction, that can be really challenging. Yep. So Susan, what do you want listeners to know about your work?

Susan Bennett: 11:04

So I just told stories, write anything, stories are really important. And I mean, if I'm really be honest, I think everybody should break out into song and dance like musicals all the time. But, you know, that's not a reality. That's my fantasy. In my brother and I, we always think in, we can speak in a lot take lines from movies, and we'll say the next line, you know, because when it's a good movie, and it's a good line, you have that. Thinking about my work, when I talked about, I liked the way you dance with the children, that's one of those lines that sticks out with me. So I like a lot about the arts based literacy. And if I look at my recent work, two things I've done with the arts one, and I think if you've listened to Ann Marie Gun's, podcasts that you'll hear about our work at after school and summer. And so this summer, I just finished working with kindergarten through eighth grade students at that center, and absolutely had a blast. It was exhausting. I love that I got to know this centers so much better. I know the staff, I became part of that community. So I'm tying back into again, that social justice equity does, it all comes back to the community and the relationships. And to I got to know, everybody and the students. And now I feel like I understand that better. And as we move forward and try to build a bigger robust literacy program, including the arts and then having the parents become are in a family engagement nights. What was great is just to see some of their eyes light up when, you know, we brought in the Florida orchestra, and they got to play with the instruments, then they got to have a band, one of the middle schoolers, she actually got the beatbox with them, and they took her name down and she might be beatboxing with the Florida orchestra at some point. And then we had like a muralist come in and then we went on a muralist tour, we took them to my brother's studio, where he edits video, and we made a video up in front of a green screen, and then put their pictures up from the summer. And then like, I would read a book like Zen Zen violin, and, you know, that week that we talked about instruments, and you know, get, let them explore that. So that's like one of those passions that I love. And I have done that. And this will tie in to my other work. So I had done that with some males who were about 16. And I ended up with really working with four of them intensely. And we did art, music, culture, you know, I talked to them about the Dine reservation, I talk to them about my trip to Cuba, and show art, and, you know, music from that, and then they give me suggestions. And I was always very shocked that this 16 year old wanted to listen to AC DC, because that was you know, from my middle school days, and, and so, so I was working with them volunteering once a week. And here is the one, the one liners from my takeaway from that was don't give up on us keep coming back, basically, which means a lot of people have given up on them. And the other part was, we just like that you come here and you listen to us and talk with us. So again, that relationship, you know, building that relationship. So those were my one liners from that. And then that led me into my other work, which is you know, Ann Marie talks about in her podcast as well. When I was working with students who were adult males who were incarcerated, I was going to a prison, you know, once or twice a week and had a whole team there, there were three of us teaching. And then we had a behavioral consultant. He was counseling as his background. And so we had a whole team of people. And we went in there, and we were trying to work on literacy achievement. And we, one of the things that we use was multicultural books, which is another part of my work that is so important for teachers. And again, the one liner was this young man, maybe 22, was listening. And you know, because they were using audiobooks. He was listening to Trevor Noah's book while he read along, and it was Trevor Noah, reading it, and I just recommend listening to him. Because his, his animation and the way he talks it, but this, this young man, he said, This is me, this is me. And so he really related to Trevor Noah, and I saw the excitement in him, you know, reading and listening to this book. And it's so important. And then the other part, at the end, when we did focus group interviews, the big one liner was you treat us like students and not inmates. So I'm going right back to really that, that relationships, and building that community that trust, making them feel comfortable, because that's what the other two teachers did to, they knew we cared, and we wanted to be there. And it's so important, that multicultural books, I could see their eyes light up with some of these books, because they can see themselves in it, you know, and see others in it. And it's just, that's what I want everyone to know about is, that's what we need to be doing. And we never know what the stories are, I don't I didn't ask them what they did to be in prison, you know, when they were getting ready to be released anywhere from three to five years. And I never asked them that, because I don't need to know that. If they want to share something with me to help them me understand them better, then obviously, I would listen to them. But, you know, I just created that trust in that confidence.

Lindsay Persohn: 17:25

Susan, as you're describing your work, what keeps coming back to my mind, is that that yes, of course, it's about our immediate local communities. But I think a lot of your work also speaks to connecting with a more global community or maybe with folks who are outside of our immediate area in order to understand that we're not alone, and that we have value and that there are possibilities and options in the world. Like I was thinking about that when you mentioned your work at the PAL Center and how you brought in the Florida orchestra and muralist. And I can envision those as opportunities for kids to see a world that is outside of their very own neighborhood, and to see that this actually is a world and in many ways full of possibilities for them. So having local connections is, of course, the foundation for that. But then I think also reaching beyond that. See, who else in our world do we have things in common with? Or might we be able to generate a relationship with and I think that that's really important for your work with incarcerated males as well. You know, obviously, there's, there is some sense of community inside of prison. But I think that's part of what makes transition so hard is that you've got to create a new fabric of community outside of those spaces as well in order to remain outside of those spaces.

Susan Bennett: 18:45

Right, right. You know, the prison stuff started during my doctoral program, where I was working on a research grant where I was going and visiting different youth who are incarcerated, and different levels of security as well. And I just saw one teacher, give one of them a worksheet, and said, Look these words up in the dictionary, and we know as literacy people, that's not good literacy practices. And you know, what was interesting is 12 years later, she's still working with the juveniles. And I met her again, she didn't remember me, but she was just sitting at a desk. And so for those reasons, I was like, I what happens to them when they leave. And you know, then I ended up with adult males who are getting ready to be released. It was a reentry facility. And so therefore, what does happen and so, the research shows to reduce recidivism is that we need to educate and make sure they have those skills, you know, in competencies and you know, successes. So when they do leave, they don't come back.

Lindsay Persohn: 19:55

Yeah, that's so important. And it also makes me think about all of the parallels that you can read about between schools and prisons, and how so many of those structures are very similar. But I think I think the logic is the same, right? Whenever we're working in schools, we have to give kids a way to feel connected to, first of all themselves, but also their immediate surroundings, and then their larger surroundings so that they understand they're a part of a fabric of knowledge and action and reaction. So that that, you know, our students can lead a rich and fulfilling life that does, you know, they're able to explore their interest and identify career options that are interesting and relevant and make them feel whole and human. And, at least in my experience, I don't know if that is the focus of schools on a day to day basis. But I think at some point, it's got to be

Susan Bennett: 20:49

it has to be right. And I think it's gotten away, you know, school, I feel like has become a political battlefield now. Right. It's becoming a platform. And it's, it's not okay.

Lindsay Persohn: 21:04

Right, it's definitely not serving very well, yeah.

Susan Bennett: 21:08

We're there to educate, and to help develop citizens who can make their own informed decision and think critically, and to be part of society. Yeah,

Lindsay Persohn: 21:21

I'm hoping that we can get back to some of that, because I agree, I think particularly where we are in Florida, you and I both, it's, it's become really a very tense political climate, when it comes to public education. So on that note, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

Susan Bennett: 21:41

So hard, isn't it? Because I mean, teachers, their job was hard to begin with. But I think what I would really say is one, stay strong. And think about why you became a teacher. Why I became a teacher was ultimately to impact children's lives, and to help them be successful. And just remembering that and know that there's support out there for all teachers, you just have to email us. Right? email your professor, I always tell my students when they leave my classroom, keep in touch, let me know how you're doing. Let me know how I can help you. Because we don't have all the answers either. It's so hard right now, with the standards, the you know, mandates, but then the whole censoring books, and banning books, which, you know, as literacy person, I love my children's literature, and especially in all of my social justice, and equity is the multicultural books, you you have to build those relationships. And in order to do that, you want them to feel comfortable and see themselves in that classroom, and to see be able to develop empathy for others. And that's how we do it. So yeah, so I say stay strong. And remember, and think about why. Why are you here? Why are you a teacher, we value you and respect you and know how hard your job is. So

Lindsay Persohn: 23:17

I think, Susan, that all echoes everything you told us about the work that you do, right, it's reaching out to remain, you know, to remain integrated into a fabric of folks who really care about kids and care about learning and want the best for the next generation and also want to continue growing and learning ourselves. And I think that's really useful advice also to, you know, remember why you're doing it because it's very easy to get lost in the shuffle, I think,

Susan Bennett: 23:46

very easy. And just even at your own school, there's probably a lot of support, you know, again, building that community with the families, the teachers, administration, you know, it's there.

Lindsay Persohn: 24:04

if we can weed through some of the distractions, and remember that it really is all about the connections, the relationships, the people. I know. That's one thing that helps me to feel a little bit more grounded when the world seems a bit impossible at the moment is just to remember why we're doing it in the first place. So Susan, thank you so much for your time today and thank you for your contributions to the field of education.

Susan Bennett: 24:27

Thanks so much for having me.

Lindsay Persohn: 24:30

Dr. Susan Bennett is known for her work in multicultural children's literature, arts and creative literacies and culturally responsive literacy practices. Her research and teaching are driven by issues of social justice. She has worked with incarcerated youth to improve literacy rates and mental health. Her work has appeared in the reading teacher International Journal of multicultural education, Journal of Research and childhood education, early childhood education journal, Journal of early childhood teacher education so She'll studies on the young learner, Journal of literacy practice and research and other venues. In 2021, Dr. Bennett and her co authors were recognized by the National Institute of Health for their work and providing access to multicultural children's literature in response to the COVID 19 pandemic. And 2019 Dr. Bennett was recognized for her multicultural and multi ethnic scholarship by a special interest group of the American Educational Research Association. Susan has also been recognized for her outstanding teaching by the University of South Florida. Dr. Bennett has formerly worked as a kindergarten teacher in public schools in Ohio and Florida and at a Navajo Nation school in New Mexico. Susan is an associate professor of literacy education at the University of South Florida St. Petersburg campus. For the good of all students classroom caffeine aims to energize education research and practice. If this show provides you with things to think about, don't keep it a secret. Subscribe, like and review this podcast through your preferred podcast provider. I also invite you to connect with the show through our website at WWW dot classroom caffeine.com where you can learn more about each guest. Find transcripts for many episodes, explore episode topics using our tagging feature, support podcast, research through our survey, request an episode topic or a potential guest or share your own questions that we might respond to through the show. You could also leave us a voice message or a text message at 1-941-212-0949. We would love to hear from you. As always, I raised my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me