A Conversation with Rachael Gabriel

Dr. Rachael Gabriel talks to us about the influence of policy on education, shadow policies, teaching outside of our integrity, and leaning on each other in hard times. Dr. Gabriel is known for her work in the areas of literacy instruction, leadership and intervention, as well as policies related to teacher development and evaluation. Her current projects investigate supports for adolescent literacy, state literacy policies and discipline-specific literacy instruction. Dr. Gabriel is Professor of Literacy Education at the University of Connecticut.

To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Jan. 31). A conversation with Rachael Gabriel. (Season 3, No. 17) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/57D8-F7A5-30E0-F9CB-B8DA-H

Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Transcript

Lindsay Persohn: 0:10

Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. In this episode, Dr. Rachael Gabriel talks to us about the influence of policy on education, Shadow policies, teaching outside of our integrity, and leaning on each other during hard times. Dr. Gabriel is known for her work in the areas of literacy instruction, leadership and intervention, as well as policies related to teacher development and evaluation. Her current projects investigate supports for adolescent literacy, state literacy policies, and discipline specific literacy instruction. Dr. Gabriel is a professor of literacy education at the University of Connecticut. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode. So pour a cup of your favorite drink. And join me your host Lindsay Persohn. For classroom caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Rachel, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.

Rachael Gabriel: 1:33

Thank you so much for having me, longtime listener first time caller.

Lindsay Persohn: 1:37

Oh, thank you. So from your own experiences and education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?

Rachael Gabriel: 1:47

Oh, wow, what a good question. And it's not like it was unexpected. I have an image in my mind about my advisor, my mentor, Richard Allington, sitting on a way too small for him chair, in an elementary school, across from probably a six year old, definitely a first grader, deep in conversation about a book. And whenever I think of Dr. Allington, that's the image that I have of him. And whenever I think of what a researcher is, and should be, that's the image that pops into my mind. So that moment happened at one point, and probably many times over, in different too small chairs. But that idea, and everything that comes along with that image, sticks with me, it makes me want to keep myself literally like in physical proximity to children and to schools in them every week. And also to keep the work that I do and my thinking as close as possible. But the other piece of that that was really important to me, is the way that it showed how he was dazzled, tickled by kids, and still thought that they were interesting and fascinating and, and fun to talk to that like given the choice. That's where he'd be. I think it's really easy for me, especially thinking about policy, which is really mostly an adult world and working in a school of education, which, ironically, is a place where they're usually very few young children running around unless they're mine, or my own, I should say, it's easy to get interested and intellectually dazzled by other things. And so coming back to that as the reason, the original reason and also like sort of a homebase, that moment, looking around and finding my fill in the to fill in the visual Rick Allington in my head is like six, six, he's not really but like, he's sort of a giant in the field in some ways, and also big, strong kind of hero of mine in lots of other ways. And so that combination sticks with me. So that's one of the moments. And then the other moment is a moment that I'd rather forget. There's a moment from my teaching sixth grade in Washington, DC, probably about 15 years ago now, where I talk to a student who I thought wasn't listening as if they weren't listening. And that wasn't the case. And that literally keeps me up at night all the time. And that that was a moment that I repaired with the individual at the time and over and over again. But it's something that sticks with me as a reminder first that like things are not always as they seem that our words really matter, especially to the children even if it looks like they're not paying attention. Or even if it looks like they aren't hurt or even if it looks like they're not not absorbing anything that we're saying. So it was a moment when I saw my power in negative light and and I saw it going in the wrong direction. And I think about that one a lot to sort of for all of the opposite reasons

Lindsay Persohn: 5:01

I really appreciate that your first moment is an image, I tend to be a very visual type thinker, or I think I tend to think not so much in the written word. And so having this image of an academic giant in a tiny little chair in an elementary school classroom, it's for me, it does conjure up so many positive images about what relationships with children could look like. And particularly whether we're educators or researchers, however we see ourselves, I love that. And I think that's an image that will stick with me also. And I also appreciate that that sort of like, it's almost like a driving purpose in the work that we do, right? That it is a place where adults can talk to children, and find out who they really are, and what they really want out of their lives in order to serve them better, right. But I hold that in kind of stark contrast to the second moment you share. And I actually turned that into a visual in my mind, also of sort of, you know, the towering teacher, with the whether it's finger wagging or finger pointing at a kid, we think is not doing what they're supposed to do. And I think that happens all the time, too. So I can appreciate that that's a moment that you still think about, even though you had an opportunity to kind of repair that relationship with a child, because we do approach education with so many assumptions about what kids are doing and what kids are thinking. And so yeah, I can really appreciate those are two framing moments in the work that you do and the way that you think about the work that you do. So thanks for sharing those. And I'm sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm sure that will also lead into the work that you do now. So Rachael, what do you want listeners to know about your work?

Rachael Gabriel: 6:41

I'm really interested in the, the way that policy shapes and hopefully eventually is shaped by the work that happens in classrooms. At the moment, I understand policy is primarily shaped by the culture, popular media, popular culture. And, and I've been studying and trying to illuminate and understand how to resist in some ways, the way that local policies, including all of the itty bitty little shadow policies, like the things things that we think are policies, but they're not really the things that teachers do, because they think they have to when, like nowhere is it written that you must do these things or worry about these things, all the way up to literally written down classroom and school and district, state and federal policies. Our current moment, there's not a lot of federal policy that is directed specifically at K 12 schools, there's a lot of just devolution to the states to make their own policy in these areas. But there is a significant legacy of federal policy that still echoes and still has kind of set a limit at our imagination in terms of what kinds of levers we can pull on to influence change, what kinds of measures matter. So the role of the federal government might be a historic one at the moment, but it still looms pretty large, and what kinds of policies are present, and likely to come next?

Lindsay Persohn: 8:07

So Rachael, you mentioned this idea of shadow policies. And I'm hoping that she'll unpack that a bit, because it seems to me that this is maybe where teachers can find a lot of their own power, their own sort of personal power and how they support students in their classrooms. So can you tell us a little bit more about your, your work and your thinking around shadow policies?

Rachael Gabriel: 8:27

Sure. I wish I could attribute it, I think I read it somewhere. I'll find it. The basic ideas, we think that there are specific rights and responsibilities, I'll kind of frame this using positioning theory that there are rights responsibilities and storylines and our understanding of what school is and who teachers are and what we're supposed to be doing and what we are entitled to. And then also what students are supposed to be doing and what they are entitled to, and administration and community and policy makers, which often we talk about policymakers, as if that's like a monolithic group that like does these things, but they also are people that are often spread in lots of different directions. And I'm always, it's always remarkable to me how many individual policies state legislator we'll look at in a year, it's in the hundreds always. And so the idea that there's 360 degrees of understanding for all of them, not even getting to nuance or getting to, you know, backstory or getting to really understand impact or intrigue, just just plain understanding what the issue is, is even more challenging than I think I often realize, anyway, Shadow policies are the things that we think have to happen that don't necessarily always have to happen. There's an idea that we have to cover all of the standards, because somebody somewhere said we have to, but there is no literal law that says, Thou shalt like you. And if you don't, nothing will happen. Theoretically, it'll show up on assessments, but so do a lot of other things. Theoretically, your administration should be Are you concerned that you are engaging the curriculum in it fully? But are they going to know? Like, there are lots of things we assume are super important. That can be reprioritized. If we, if we want to put students in front of those things, so sometimes that's prioritizing what we teach, sometimes it's prioritizing how we teach, sometimes we think we have to do, you know, 10 minutes of this program every single day, and if we don't, x will happen, but often there isn't another shoe that's gonna drop. And so the question that sometimes there is, I'm not saying that there isn't. So so the question to ask is, what really would happen if I made a change here? What really would happen if I took my foot off the gas on this one thing? Who would know? What would the consequences be? And can I live with that better than I can live with what's happening right now, my concern, and my my worry for teachers at the moment is that they are often being asked to teach outside of their integrity, they're being asked to do things that they do not understand is in the best interest of children and their communities. And so they're always making trade offs and compromises, that's always going to be true, because being part of a public institution that serves a diverse population, in communities that are always growing and changing, we're always going to be making some kind of compromise. We're always negotiating and making decisions. And that's why we want highly trained professionals who care a lot about children in these roles. And we want also for those highly trained professionals who care about children to know where they have room to make their own decisions about things when they feel they're being pressured into things that they can't stand in their integrity to do. So shadow policies partly come from the idea that like politics is like political spectacle and political theater that like politics is all about the storytelling. And really, what gets written into law is often a lot less dramatic, and a lot less interesting. And far reaching than we might think the impact of a lot can often be like really sweeping and just it will take on a life of its own. And it has a lot of drama and a whole narrative arc to it. However, when we go back to literally the letter of the law, like what words are there, there's often some room more room than we think, because laws get, you know, translated over and over again, by the different institutions that are there to implement them. So it trickles down and changes and a little bit of a telephone game. By the time it makes it to teachers, the story is a little bit different. And so it's important that teachers know what's really there. And then also, what's written is often a lot more dry than the reality feels. And so a lot gets projected onto it. Understanding that like, laws only happen if they catch the imagination of the public, if they catch the imaginations of the the chairs of committees that are charged with setting agendas for what people vote on, and what people pass. And if they catch the imagination of the media, so that the public is aware, and they put pressure on their policymakers are really good political story is what makes laws happen in a lot of cases. And so that story is often what gets passed along. And yet, the law itself sometimes has more room for us, and also sometimes has a couple of contradictions in it. It's funny to think about how so many different people participate in editing and writing and rewriting laws. And sometimes there are, you know, built in contradictions where it pulls you one way and another way, and you have to make a decision. And right there you there's room for people to blow up those sort of cover over those contradictions and blow up the importance of one way or another. And also room for a teacher to say no, I mean, I see where you get that impulse. But the law also says something else, and I'm gonna stand in my integrity to make that happen as well.

Lindsay Persohn: 13:50

So a couple of things you've said so far, Rachael, first of all, I want to point out that there's a prior classroom caffeine episode with Danielle Dennis, who also talks a bit about teacher autonomy and agency and understanding the law. And also, she doesn't use the term shadow policies. But I think she's really talking about the ways in which policy is enacted. And that game of telephone and just how, you know, how twisted sometimes things get where, yes, teachers wholeheartedly believe there's something they must do. That's actually not in the law. Right. And, and, and so she is also I also want to point out for listeners that Danielle is also a student of Dr. Ellington. So I think that, you know, it's pretty neat how you can see those connections over time and sort of those ripples of ideas through generations of scholars, so to speak. So I appreciate that connection.

Rachael Gabriel: 14:44

Yeah, totally. Yes. I like the term generation of scholar I. I always think of Danielle as my big sister in, in academia. I see. No, but yes,

Lindsay Persohn: 14:54

yes, yes. But it you know, it's so true that you can trace those ideas from I'm a major professor or mentor to, you know, newer generations of scholars as well. And that's actually a little preview, that's something we're working on for the classroom caffeine website is creating those networks of scholars so that listeners can more readily trace ideas across generations of scholars. So more on that. But it's been fun to think about how so many scholars are truly connected in not just the way they think now, but where their ideas come from kind of the genesis of those ideas. So yeah, and I think that even if you are in, in or in academia, it can be hard to track those relationships. And certainly, I think if you're a teacher coming to this conversation, it is that much more difficult, because you're, you know, mindful of so many other relationships around you. So we're trying to make those ideas much clearer and make it easier for listeners to kind of follow the iterative thinking and the new developments in that thinking over time. So I wanted to make that connection to Daniels episode. But this this concept that you brought forth of teaching outside of our integrity, I wonder, and I sort of have this gut instinct that this is why a lot of teachers end up leaving education, when they are forced over and over again, to teach outside of what they believe in, or what they know is good for kids. And I'm wondering if you have any, any insights? Or if you can say anything more about what it means to teach outside of our integrity, or maybe even how we get back? Within our own professional and personal integrity? How do we navigate that in such a complex political world of education?

Rachael Gabriel: 16:34

million dollar question, right. But it really, but a good a good, important one, thank you for asking it. This is what I've been thinking about since I entered the profession, partly because my mother was a reading specialist and, and always told me, I could be anything I wanted, but don't be a teacher. And the reason was, because if you're a teacher, people will not respect you. And every few years, they will tell you that everything you know is wrong. And you have to do it a different way. And then later on everything that we just told you was right, because the other was that, you know, the pendulum swing kind of re inscribed onto that storyline that I entered the profession with, against her wishes. And I've been around long enough to see that happen kind of writ large, like our cross, yeah, the community of of educators and a community of scholars, but also watched it happen for my students. I've kind of felt it for myself, both in, in K 12. Classroom and also in higher ed. And I think part of it is part of it is deeply personal. And it should be because teaching is relational activity. It's social and interactive. And so often, the micro level moment by moment, quality of our interactions with students is what accumulates into something that's important. And that grows, and that either protects and nurtures them through their learning experience, or doesn't, whether it has a negative effect or just doesn't contribute to put layers of protection that they're going to need, as they face content they're not particularly interested in or topics that are really difficult for them or teachers who aren't necessarily a good match, like we know that they're going to, we know that there will be moments of difficulty intention in everybody's education career. And the question isn't, are you going to have a hard time at some point? The question is, are you going to have the layers of protection that you need to survive the hard times? And so if we could be constantly contributing to the development of protective layers around children, then we should. And I guess the challenge is that, you know, the phrase hurt people hurt people, oppressed people, oppressed people, if teachers are treated as if they don't know anything, or if they're treated as if they don't make good decisions, then, even unconsciously, we often let that kind of trickle down into our understanding, and our interactions with other teachers and with other students. If we feel like people are suspicious of us than we often becomes suspicious of other people. I don't mean to say that people don't have a choice about this, and that your own kind of confidence and, and sense of self worth and self efficacy don't matter they do. And they serve as kind of protective factors for you in the profession. So the question of like, what do we do about this? I think you build a, you know, lean on your network of friends and colleagues enough, who make you feel more human, not less. That's what we're looking for here more human, not less. Think about the, the scholars, even if they're kind of far away, you've never met them before. The people in social media, the colleagues that you have from long ago or from right now and the leaders that are around you, that make you feel more human, and get a little bit of swagger about that. And, you know, take your swagger and say, and say, Actually, I'm a full human and I deserve to be fully human here. And that means that I have ideas about things and I have experiences that inform that those ideas. And as long as we hold those as always kind of tentative and contingent, like we're willing to change our minds, we're willing to realize, oh, no, the student did actually hear me they were still thinking, you know, that we don't know everything. Swagger is an I know everything. And you know, nothing. Swagger is, I know some things. And I'm always learning, and so are the people around me. My main concern is, is not so much at the individual level. But as at the community level, teachers are questioned, bashed, told, words are taken out of their mouths, actions are taken away from them. And working with colleagues that are being told what they can and can't say in an email and who they are and are not allowed to be in communication with, you can then turn around and produce humanizing interactions. If you are always surrounded by dehumanizing interactions, it kind of slowly depletes your stores. So I think and I actually sort of hope that one of the reasons that people leave is they don't feel like they can do a good job where they are, and they find a place where they can, I think, then hope that I hope that that is something that people feel empowered to do, because I think it's good for everybody when you do. And I think too many teachers are in that position of feeling like I can't do my best work here. And I need to be in a different spot.

Lindsay Persohn: 21:22

I think that's such empowering advice that you provide here, because it's sometimes easier to become apathetic than to try to fight all the time every day, especially if you're in a context where you feel like you're constantly fighting. And I know, in my teaching experience, I've worked in schools where I felt fully empowered, and I felt supported. And I've also worked in schools where the opposite was true, right? I just sort of felt like there was somebody always looking over my shoulder. And that idea of having a little bit of swagger and kind of knowing who you are, and where you come from, and knowing what you know, but also being willing to reconsider, I think is so important on an individual level. But then also, I think there's so much to community communities of teachers, and that collective efficacy, right, because if we all are in community together, if we all have ideas, if we're willing to talk about them, if we're willing to reconsider our ideas based on the ideas of others, it creates such a strong community of educators who can then say, We believe this, or we are going to take a stand here, because we believe that we know what's good for kids. And I think that there's there's something that's both personally empowering about that. But then, as you also mentioned, the sort of community feeling of empowerment, that I think that whenever we have that it is much easier to stay and to keep doing the work that we know is good for kids. So I appreciate that empowering advice.

Rachael Gabriel: 22:54

There's a podcast that's almost as good as this one. Not quite. That's called Kelly Corrigan wonders. And she's doing a series right now about intellectual humility in the way that it like leads to more creativity and innovation. And we don't know all there is to it, we're not going to know and really what we're pushing back against as anybody that says that they do know once and for all kind of like this is the way and other ways aren't as good or other ways aren't good enough. We want the full repertoire, we want all the colors in the crayon box, we want all the flavors in the spice cabinet. And anybody that wants to limit us to you know, like eight colors, or two colors, anybody that says that these things are black and white is lying and or selling something or just confused. And the confusion often comes from oppression, you have not been invited to consider an alternative, you it hasn't been safe for you to consider an alternative. And as a result, you don't have the intellectual humility to grow the ideas. And in a learning field and a learning profession, we have to always we have to have room to grow. And if we don't, we're not going to and it's not going to feel right. And I think that that's really where this sort of questioning of integrity comes it's not because there's a big T truth and you're not letting me live my truth. It's because I'm not allowed to question and grow. Like if you if you bring in something that is new to me that I don't necessarily agree with. But I have room to question and I have room to shape and to grow in and alongside of it. That's really different than saying everything you know, is wrong and do this instead. So framing is part of this, like, Am I off? I always tell my students when we do our assessment class, there's no bad assessments, just bad uses of assessments. I actually think there probably are some bad curricular programs. But there are also, you know, good and bad, useful and not useful, fruitful and damaging uses of curriculum materials. And so we're just looking for space, I think, and so are our students, they're telling us in in huge ways, like generational ways and other ways that who they are as different from who we might have expected a month ago or a year ago or a decade ago, in so many different ways that the assumptions we make about like the humanity of the children that walk through the school doors today is evolving and flourishing, I think in a beautiful way. But the more we say, No, you've got to be this kind of student in this kind of thinker. And you have to engage in these activities. And like these texts, the more we limit them, the more we create tensions and only see bad because we're creating a situation where people are not thriving and growing and living in their integrity.

Lindsay Persohn: 25:23

Yeah, and something else you said, Rachael connected me back to something you mentioned earlier about the fact that legislators are really responsible, there's political pressure for them to cruise through so many different bills. And you know, I mean, we're talking 1000s, and 1000s, and 1000s of pages, which have been reduced to black and white, right, black ink on a white page. And it actually kind of surprisingly, makes me feel a little bit sympathetic for politicians. Yeah. Right. Because they're not using all the colors in the crayon box. They're not imagining what these mandates and laws look like in real life, in 3d in color in our world, and it with tremendous consequences for the professionals who have to enact those, but ultimately, for the students that they impact. And so thank you for that. Because sometimes, I don't always think about politics in those ways. And so I appreciate you kind of pushing back on my own inherent beliefs about politics and how they work or don't in education. And so maybe, just maybe so many of us are really trying to do the very best we can, but are maybe misinformed or don't see things in 3d or in full color. So I appreciate you putting that idea. In my mind, it's certainly something that I'm going to continue to think about. And that's not to say that we accept policy, you know, for what it is. Right? But people are still people. Yeah,

Rachael Gabriel: 26:58

yeah, yeah, see the humanity of policymakers. I'm going to complicate that one more, one more layer, please. Which is that I think that the bills themselves, what no matter what their details are, and whatever, they're kind of like wait, the downstream consequences of them that folks may not have the bandwidth or the information to be aware of the bills do end up sort of signifying things, and they end up being kind of seen in three dimensions, but politically, not necessarily in terms of their implementation and application and people's experiences several years down the line. So bill that has something to do with reading might end up symbolizing, like, this is the vote that we need, that's going to do X for the party, where this is the vote that we we just need to make sure that nothing passes through the committee, this session, or this one was brought up by this chair, and this chair symbolizes xx for the party. And so we are all against it are all for it. And it's not really about the details of the bill anymore. So they do have there is meaning attached to these many, many, many bills that people are, are working with. And that's one of the ways that they can handle the volume is, you know, we sort and categorize things and assign meaning to them, which may or may not be inclusive of the meanings that teachers and leaders and parents and kids the the meanings that they hold. And one of the things that we've seen, for better or for worse over the last five or eight years, is that the more people show up to do testimony, the more certain narrative gets heard. And there are real logistical challenges with that it's almost always in the middle of the day, it almost always takes hours and hours, you never know if they're actually going to call you or hear you, you've got to stand up and speak in front of it. Like it's really not a friendly environment, unless you love yourself some public speaking with a timer, like there are so very few people who are made for that. And so that it just creates a whole bunch of challenges that are unequally felt across communities. And yet, it's evidence that when people tell stories about how laws impact their lives, folks that they elect, often hear them and whether it influences that particular vote or not, that becomes part of the fabric of how they understand what's going on in schools and how they understand who the players are and where the needs are. And so it is still worth reaching out to communicate in whatever way you think you can do that. And because we're never sure if it's going to make a difference or not. I like to encourage people to absolutely write to and call and go go talk to folks, but not invest there and like don't spend 17,000 hours trying to craft a perfect letter because chances are that letter just gonna get put in a pile that gets counted 17 for 10 against and it's going to be there. So that's great, but nobody's going to be poring over your word choice, unless by chance they do. So it's always worth writing. It's always worth throwing up but not killing yourself over it. Because Because who knows.

Lindsay Persohn: 29:54

That's great advice. That's because I do think that the the process of becoming an involved in politics and in political decision making is really daunting. And sometimes it feels like it's just one more thing that we don't really have the time or attention to spend our time on. But there are so many tools out there that can help you to identify, you know, your point person. And you know, I think that those are the things that are incredibly helpful. But also hearing you say, it doesn't so much matter what you know, your precise word choices, don't spend five hours drafting that email, put your thoughts down and send it off, because sending it off for legislators to have in hand is so much better than having those ideas just sort of in your own head. So what what wonderful advice that I think folks can can take action on. Awesome, awesome. Rachel, is there anything else you want listeners to know about your work? Anything we haven't talked about yet?

Rachael Gabriel: 30:50

I mean, like, I hope that's my work, right? I hope my work is trying to understand how forces shape what people can and can't do in their classrooms, and how what we're doing in classrooms is more humanizing than less. I think that I hope that that looks really different over time, it hasn't always looked the way it's looked right now, it looks like a lot of policy right now, because there's a lot of policy happening. But I hope that that, that that mission looks different over time. Yeah. And I

Lindsay Persohn: 31:17

wish we could get away from you know, voting down party lines, and blocking, blocking good policy, just because it comes from someone we don't like, or someone we're not aligned with. And really put people first, you know, if I had one wish for politics, it would be to put people first over party's over over the politics of it all, and really look at what's good for people. And I'm not talking about one brand of people. I'm talking about everyone in our wonderful, free country, you know, if only we could get to that point.

Rachael Gabriel: 31:49

Yep, it's sort of it's the it's the what's what's the most inclusive. There's, there's this strand of my research that feels disconnected, but isn't, which is I have always done some writing and thinking about neuro to neurodiversity. We didn't always call it that. But we, but we follow people who identify as neurodiverse. And one of the things that it's teaching me as an instructor is just to leave room for possibilities that we can't yet imagine, and to leave room for people to be more more and more fully human in our classrooms and in the way that they communicate. And I think you're absolutely right, that if policy makers were invited to be more fully human in their roles, that they would see more humanity in the in the activities and the decisions that they're making. And I think the folks that do or often that feel really human in that role that feel like they can be effective, are often much more effective than their colleagues who are sort of having to follow or having to be kind of overly directed by other things. And that is also a nice balance, because it gives me a sense of hope, like working with, I work with the School of Engineering on this current project, to make the undergraduate engineering program more inclusive. And working in a very engineering way on how to engineer inclusivity is refreshing. And also it does sort of a little bit of a hope generation machine, especially knowing how high schools look to universities for how do we do what we do and what counts is smart and what counts is good. And what are we preparing kids for a middle school, it's the High School. And I don't know if elementary school really looks to middle school for those things. But in the event that they do, I like the idea that some of the most challenging sort of STEM high pressure majors are doing this thinking in this work, so that maybe, maybe that that will be a good kind of trickle down.

Lindsay Persohn: 33:35

We can hope, we can certainly hope. So one, one more question for you. And this actually feels a little late in the conversation. But given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

Rachael Gabriel: 33:48

I hope that teachers know that some people in scholarly communities see them, and that they connect and continue to build relationships with the people that they think do. I think one of the things that has been incredibly effective at breaking down the institution of public education is siloing and isolating people. So teachers isolated from leaders and leaders isolated from teacher educators and like everybody's isolated from each other researchers and teachers, there's this sense in some cases, I think it's obviously very true. And in some cases, I think it's an overblown myth, but the whole like gap between like research and practice, and what research really can and can't do about and for and in practice, is something that is used mostly rhetorically to minimize what teachers no one can do. And that's only allowed to happen because the connections aren't there. We don't have like big, thick braided fiber optic connections between people whose job is to study instruction and people whose job is to implement instruction. And often I think the best research is happening in between. It's folks that are informally asking the right questions and gathering often at like incredible time cost and resource cost, like gathering the information that helps them answer those questions in in a robust way that like still kind of has integrity, and they are doing the translation for us. They're teaching us about classrooms, then they are teaching classroom teachers about what the results of the sort of accumulated results of inquiry have made. So I hope that teachers know that they're not alone. And that the more they're the more they reach out to networks of colleagues that have different roles and have different experiences, the stronger they'll be. And also, the last five or six years, especially for read for teachers in general, but reading teachers especially, has been this sort of moment of disintegration like things that we thought were unquestionable, and that never got questioned, for better and for worse, are being sort of are being questioned in a very public way, and often not in a very kind way. And we really are seeing sort of, if you think about it as like season cycles, we're seeing like, all the leaves fall off the trees, and lay lots of things bare. And in some cases, the trees aren't surviving. And we're going to see what comes as this kind of turns into compost and new new growth and new ideas kind of come up between it but it is that sort of like, fee sometimes people call it the wisdom cycle, or sometimes it's just think about it as like how leaves happen. I live in New England, I have a lot of leaves my backyard that I spent a lot of time raking. But yeah, we're in this not very comfortable moment of compost, composting happening, a lot of it. And it doesn't always smell great. And it doesn't always look pretty. And we have to believe that spring is coming and stick around long enough for it to come and, and then also stick together well enough that we are nurturing ourselves and each other so that when it does come that the new growth has a has a really good fighting chance of you know, being beautiful for the kids.

Lindsay Persohn: 37:02

I love that. Thank you for another wonderful mental image. And I appreciate I appreciate compost as the way you describe that. Because I think in a lot of places, it maybe feels a little stickier than compost so, so thank you. And I think that idea of looking for springtime to come I bet fills me with quite a bit of hope for what might be just around the corner. If, as you said, we can stick together and support each other and continue to look for the good. And also, it reminds me that you know the children right in front of us in schools, this is their childhood, they don't get another chance at this. So we have to do our very best for those who are are sitting right in front of us. So thank you so much for that, Rachael.

Rachael Gabriel: 37:47

Thank you.

Lindsay Persohn: 37:48

And I also I want to thank you for your time today. And thank you for your tremendous contributions to the field of education.

Rachael Gabriel: 37:55

Thank you and thank you for this podcast and other tremendous contribution.

Lindsay Persohn: 37:59

Thank you. Dr. Rachael Gabriel is known for her work in the areas of literacy instruction, leadership and intervention as well as policies related to teacher development and evaluation. Her current projects investigate supports for adolescent literacy, state literacy policies and discipline specific literacy instruction. She is author of more than 50 refereed articles and author or editor of six books for literacy teachers, leaders and education researchers. Her work has appeared in the reading teacher Journal of Reading Recovery, Journal of adolescent and adult literacy reading Research Quarterly, the elementary school Journal American Educational Research Journal, Education Policy Analysis archives, educational policy, educational leadership, Journal of literacy research, English journal, voices from the middle language arts, action and teacher education, the Clearinghouse a journal of educational strategies, as well as many other publication venues. She has won awards for her research from the American Educational Research Association, the International Literacy Association, and the NEA ag School of Education at the University of Connecticut. Rachel currently teaches courses for educators and doctoral students pursuing specialization in literacy. She serves on the editorial boards of journals focused on literacy, education, research and educational policy, and has served on the boards of the International Literacy Association and Reading Recovery Council of North America. In addition to experience as a classroom teacher and a reading specialist, Rachel holds graduate certificates in both quantitative and qualitative research methods. You can follow Dr. Gabriel on Twitter at Rachel Gabriel that's at our a c h e g a b r i e. L. Dr. Gabriel is professor of literacy education at the University of Connecticut. For the good of all students Classroom caffeine aims to energize education research and practice. If this show provides you with things to think about, don't keep it a secret. Subscribe, like and review this podcast through your preferred podcast provider. I also invite you to connect with the show through our website at WWW dot classroom caffeine.com where you can learn more about each guest. Find transcripts for many episodes, explore episode topics using our tagging feature, support podcast research through our survey, requested episode topic or a potential guest or share your own questions that we might respond to through the show. You could also leave us a voice message or a text message at 1-941-212-0949. We would love to hear from you. As always, I raised my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me