A Conversation with Coreen "CJ" Leacock: RISE Caribbean Special Series

Dr. Leacock is known for her work in the areas of literacy and numeracy, including the teaching and learning of mathematics, student achievement, technology use in education, democratizing classrooms, and literacy across the curriculum. Dr. Leacock is the Project Coordinator for the RISE Caribbean research team and a Senior Lecturer in Mathematics Education and Research Methods in the School of Education at the University of the West Indies, Cave Hill. You can reach CJ and the Caribbean Educational Research Center at cercentre@cavehill.uwi.edu.

To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, May. 16). A conversation with Coreen “CJ” Leacockt: RISE Caribbean Special Series (Season 3, No. 25) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI:10.5240/C73E-151E-1B3F-FA84-B86F-3

Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Transcript

Lindsay Persohn: 0:10

Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom caffeine is here to help. In each episode I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. Hello classroom caffeine listeners, we are hosting a special series of episodes to share with you some of the work involving past classroom caffeine guest, my colleague and friend Dr. Patriann Smith. This special series is intended to share work associated with an upcoming conference. Specifically, these episodes shine light on research taking place in the Caribbean islands with both specific contextual nuance and universal applicability. Dr. Smith, with many others is involved in the Caribbean Educational Research Initiative officially referred to as the Research Initiative for Supporting Education in the Caribbean or RISE Caribbean. This initiative is a partnership between the United States Agency for International Development, the University of the West Indies Cave Hill campus, the University of South Florida and the eastern Caribbean Joint Board of Teacher Education. The Caribbean Educational Research Center launched as a part of the initiative in 2021 is designed to serve the Eastern Caribbean islands which consists of six independent countries Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and also three British Overseas Territories, The Virgin Islands, Montserrat and Anguilla. This center is housed at the University of West Indies Cave Hill campus in Barbados with the capability to generate and utilize robust data for improved decision making and basic education throughout the region. The Caribbean Educational Research Center draws on research expertise from the University of West Indies School of Education, UWI's other campuses the University of South Florida ministries of education and the teacher education divisions of the national Colleges of the Eastern Caribbean and the teachers college in Barbados in harmony with the aim of building research capacity in the region. The center provides assistantships and internships for graduate students pursuing research degrees in education and related fields and staff from the ministries of education and the National colleges who work with classroom teachers to investigate classroom phenomena. The RISE Caribbean initiative is expected to ultimately establish a repository for education data for the countries in the East Caribbean and Barbados. Conduct demand driven research and analysis to inform policy and planning for ministries of education and other stakeholders in education build capacity for research and training with students and education stakeholders conduct and support comparative and collaborative research with higher education institutions in and outside of the region and strengthen research culture through publications, public lectures, and other means of sharing research findings. One of the major activities of the RISE Caribbean initiative is an annual conference designed to support the Center's research fellows and research assistants to this end, the rise Caribbean 2023 conference, building solidarity across educational communities, cultivating spaces where students thrive, aims to harness the power of community, interconnectedness, and inclusivity in our collective efforts to create and sustain educational spaces for students to succeed. The RISE Caribbean conference includes sessions that imagine possibilities around which we can plan collectively to improve the experiences wellbeing and educational outcomes for all children, especially those for whom achievement, equity and justice have long been withheld. This classroom caffeine special series highlights scholars who are integral to the work of the rise Caribbean Initiative and the rise Caribbean conference hosted at the University of South Florida Tampa, May 30 Through June 1 2023. In this episode, Dr. Coreen J. Leacock, talks to us about context specific research the assets every child brings to their classrooms and the true meaning of Education. Dr. Leacock is known for her work in the areas of literacy and numeracy, including the teaching and learning of mathematics, student achievement, technology use in education, democratizing classrooms and literacy across the curriculum. Dr. Leacock is the Project Coordinator for the rise Caribbean research team and a senior lecturer in mathematics as well. occasion and research methods in the School of Education at the University of the West Indies Cave Hill, you can reach CJ and the Caribbean Educational Research Center at C E R Center at Cave Hill dot u wi.edu. That's C E RC e n t r e at Cavehill dot u wi.edu. Note the British spelling. For more information about our guest. Stay tuned to the end of this episode. CJ, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.

CJ Leacock: 5:43

Thank you very much, Lindsay. I'm happy to be here.

Lindsay Persohn: 5:45

So from your own experiences and education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now,

CJ Leacock: 5:53

I think the moment that inform my my thinking as an educator now began way when I was a student in primary school, I had some experiences there that some that were good, and that I thought should continue. And some that were not so good. And so when I became an educator myself, I thought I will not do that. I will not do that. Now you're saying well, why are you thinking about that at primary school. And it's because from primary school, I knew I wanted to be a teacher. I liked learning. And I wanted to help people to learn as well. And I noticed some of my classmates who had challenges learning. And it's only as I got older, I would think back about them. What could I have done? If I were a teacher to help them? I'm that kind of person. I'm a bit nosy and get into people's business and what because I want to help them sometimes to my own detriment. So it started back then. And then I became a teacher. And the cultural shock that I had when I actually got into a classroom to be on the other side of the desk, certainly influenced me my own school background. Yes, I was at school in the era where the ruler talks. And you know, the we listened as students because we didn't want to have a discussion with a ruler. But my own experience going into secondary school, I attended a school where students were eager to learn, where we could discuss what we were learning where we could read and then argue with the teachers about what we've read, if it is different from what they might have said things like that. And then I went to teach in a secondary school, where I had 1112 13 year olds who could not read, who could not read 234 letter words, and it broke my heart. I remember as a young teacher, going home on evenings after work to cry, because I felt really, really sad for the students. And not so much because I thought that they were broken or anything like that. But because when I looked around and I saw what was happening with them in the school, I thought there was something wrong with this. And I always wanted to do something about it. I had students who use the same mathematics textbook that I used. And that textbook was heavy reading. And it was it was a great book for algebra, but not for much else as far as I was concerned as a student, but here are students who can barely read who for whom algebra was not something that they were going to be doing in the same way as presented in that book. And that's the textbook that they had, they couldn't read it. Quite often they left it at home. And to be quite honest, I don't blame them, I would have left it at home as well. So these are some of the things that made me think what else can I do to help these children apart from from going home and feeling really sad, I thought I needed to upgrade my skills in order to be able to work with these children, the ones who could barely read who could not add one digit numbers, you know, things that you would expect younger children to be able to do. And I thought no, this can't be right. And it can't all be the children's fault. You know, I know that it is a common thing to say, the children don't want to learn the children don't do their homework. The children don't do this. But it all can't be the children's fault. So I thought about what I can do for the children. But I also used to think about what I could do for my colleagues, as teachers. Now as you can imagine a 19 year old going into a school and speaking to people who've been teaching for ages, what can I do to help you help you know you will get put in your place, which I did quite often. But I learned not to be so upfront with my colleagues and challenge them and so on. But it was always in the back of my head. What can I do to help teachers to help the students because there are only so many students I can help. Those are the ones who come in front of me? And what about the others who go in front of other people? So I that was always in the back of my head. And when I did my own studies in education, I would always be thinking, how can I use this? Or what can I do with this, to help those children that I that I know about, that I've met in the classroom. And then you also realize that some of the ones in your own classroom were, you know, doing well. But they didn't have what they needed to challenge them to do even better, we might have done even better if we had a different approach to teaching mathematics, and all the other subject areas, I will say mathematics, because that's the area that I focused on. Primarily, when I started to teach, I later went on to, to do training in remedial education, where that touched on literacy, language learning, teaching of science, teaching of social studies, teaching modern languages, you know, to students who are struggling and how to use activities, such as art and music and dance, to help students. So imagine, here I am learning to teach students who are struggling with mathematics, but I'm in a dance studio, learning how with movement and rhythm, a number and that kind of thing. So these are some of the things that got me to this point, to the point where, where I knew that I could not just stay in the classroom as a teacher, meeting my students as much as I enjoyed the interactions with them. And I love to watch them go from a place of looking downtrodden, to Hey, this is not so bad, I can try this. Now, it doesn't mean that they became brilliant, overnight. But what I tried to do, what I did for them, was to try to get them to a point where they feel that they can attempt it. And where they know that once they give it their best shot, even if they don't get it right the first time that they can take a deep breath, and perhaps go back at it again. That is what I aim for. And all of that in my own teaching and how I talked to teachers came out of those experiences, what I saw in the classroom, myself as a student, and then what I saw in the classroom, as a young teacher, going into a secondary school where the majority of the students there were struggling, generally, they had all round challenges with learning whether it were reading, writing, communication, numeracy, dealing with numbers, they had these challenges. And I always felt that I wanted to do something to help them.

Lindsay Persohn: 12:40

Yes, well, CJ, your energy, I think, is infectious. And as you were telling us those stories, I think that that probably most teachers can relate to that. Just that overwhelming feelings of really being unsure of where to turn in order to help students, particularly if they have gone through years of school where you know, they've been told they're not good at things, right, and that they don't really bring much to the table when it comes to their own education. I think we've all been there. And it sometimes is just this overwhelming feeling of despair. But I think that you also share a lot of hope. Because what I hear you saying is that this attitude of you call it being nosy I might call it just being curious about the world. And how you approach these questions in energetic and thoughtful kinds of ways. And it sounds to me like you whether you knew it or not, we're working to share that disposition toward learning with your students as well. There is something that can suck the life out of you whenever you feel like you've tried and you've tried, and you're not doing well at it, and and then you begin to feel like it doesn't matter anyway. Right. And I think that that's sometimes where our students end up after, you know, years of attempting to do school, so to speak, and not be so successful at it. So, right, yeah, I think you actually share a really hopeful message here about how we might be able to encourage our students and bring some of that energy back to their learning. So what do you want listeners to know about your work?

CJ Leacock: 14:12

Well, my work as a teacher of mathematics, and a mathematics educator working with Teachers of Mathematics, because after I left the classroom, and I did some more studying and training and so on, that's where I headed. I headed to a role where I was working with mathematics educators. Some of the things that I learn and I would want people, especially if their teachers listening to go away with is that every child brings something, they bring something. I can speak about the Caribbean context, because sometimes we underestimate what the children are bringing, because they may not have the language to express it. Now this is a thing. It isn't that they don't have the language, they don't have the language of the school. They don't have the formal language, but they do have the language, they have their home language. For example, in Barbados, the language of the most of the persons is the first language is a Creole English based Creole that we call Bayesian, and children can speak Bayesian and what happens. And in the other classrooms in the other English speaking, Caribbean islands that I interact with, that I deal with, I see the same thing, when the children come with a Creole from from that particular country, the children have something to say they want to be able to express their thoughts on their thinking and, and explain why they're doing a particular thing. But the only language that they have is the language of their home, they have not yet been proficient enough at the so called standard that the school is expecting them to have to express themselves. And one of the things that happens is that teachers have the tendency to want to stop them and correct them. And that frustrates the children. And what happens is that after a while, they're just shut up. Because if every time I start to talk, I'm interrupted and told No, don't say this way, say that way. And you're asking me to say it in a way that I can't manage, then I'm not going to say anything. And so you have a bunch of quiet children in the classroom, you're asking questions, and nobody is talking. But if you allow the children to communicate in the language that they understand, yes, you can, and your response to them, and you want to use the standard so that they can hear what they're saying being said in the standard, that's fine. But not to stop them every minute to correct them to say, No, you should say this way. Now, if you allow children to do that, and they know that they can do that safely, without criticism without, you know, people laughing at the way they speak, and so on, you will find that the children have some really good understanding of, of the mathematics concepts. But you can only know that if they're allowed to speak, sometimes they bring a new way of looking at it that you never even thought of. But then when you go and investigate it, it's a viable thing. And rather than teaching the children our own shortcuts as to how to do things, let them talk their way through things. And they sometimes come up with their own shortcuts that make sense to them. But in the case of mathematics that are mathematically sound, there's nothing wrong with them mathematically. And so if this is the best way you understand it, there is nothing wrong with it, it will always work, then why not let the children go with it, rather than going into the classroom and trying to start by teaching them shortcuts, I learned that if you allow the children to talk, if you give them enough materials to work with, and enough guidance, that many of them not all, I'm not saying that this is some sort of panacea for everybody, but more of them will express themselves, and more of them will become comfortable with the subject. Because a lot of the barriers to learning mathematics is because students think that they can't know if they go away, if the one thing that go away from your class is with a feeling that I can, if that is all that you can do for them, when they leave your grade, that they go away. And not just knowing I'm struggling with a bunch of content, but recognizing that this subject can be challenging, it can be difficult, but you know what, I think I can try it. If that is all that happens when they leave your classroom. And they go into the next grade with that attitude. And the next teacher can build on that. Yes, they may not walk out of there, as you know, great mathematicians, but they develop a level of comfort, dealing with mathematical ideas, and understanding that they can explore these ideas. They may get it wrong at some point in time. But that is not a reflection on who they are as a person. Because children in classrooms when they're learning and they experience constant failure, and there's nobody to say everybody feels that something sometimes you just have to decide you're going to persist and continue. Then they just go away feeling downtrodden, and they feel depressed, and they feel a sense of hopelessness, worthlessness, and then they stop trying. If they feel that they can, then they're likely and the thing is, once they start to experience some small success, they build on that. And they build on that and they build on that and then they become more than that. They themselves thought there could be an other people thought it could be. So I would want persons to go away with the idea that you have to give children in the classroom, the chance to learn, not the chance to memorize things that You've given them, but the chance to learn and to learn how to learn, what is this thing called learning? And how does a person go about learning? And do you have to get it right the first time to say you're learning. In fact, I would tell some of my students, the ones who needed to hear it, that's the only time you don't learn when you make a mistake, is when you just leave it there. And in fact, some of the best learning happens after you've made a mistake. So you make that mistake. And then you say, Okay, that was a right now, what can I do to make it right, and you go on to learn from there, if we could get our students who are not the fast ones in the class, to develop that kind of attitude, to develop the idea that what they have to say, that doesn't matter that they don't say in the same using the same language that you might, but that you value what they have to see, then I think that we would go a long way towards educating children. Because I believe that education is more than just collecting a bunch of subject content, I personally call that schooling, where you get a whole set of content, and you get certificates and you walk away. That is schooling. And you know, you can do that. But education with education is deeper than that. It goes into touching your character, who you are, and how you how you carry yourself and what you believe about yourself, and how you relate to other people, or how you see yourself in the whole sphere of things, in a community, in a classroom, in a school in a community, and how you how you think about yourself as somebody who can make a positive contribution to whatever situation you're in. And a positive contribution has nothing to do with your job description, with your the size of your salary. What you contribute to your community is who you are, the caring that you have for people in your community, the things that you do in your community that contribute to the happiness of the people around you, I don't know, sometimes people think that, you know, this is all utopian. But I believe that yes, you may not be able to touch every single child in this way. But if you can touch one or two, and they feel this way about themselves, and what you have been what you've been doing, it's not lost, because that's one or two less persons just existing without living, and just being unhappy, because they're seeing things that other people might have, that they don't have, and feel that because they don't have them, that they are less of a person within the community than people who have things and, and you, if you can get your students to think that way, then I think you're going along with educating the students rather than just giving them subject content, to go out and get a job and what have you, if you are a decent person, you don't have to worry about getting a job, people will be chasing you down to give you a job because they know that you have integrity, they know that you you you will keep your word they know that you will do the best job that you possibly can. And to me, these are the things that count on what education should do for for our students. So if that is what people can take away from what they hear me say I do as part of my work, that is the basis of that is what pushes me when I do what I do. When I when I go out into the classrooms, and I observe teachers and when I have workshops, to help teachers to understand some of the things that they can do to help the children to feel that way about themselves. That is that is the essence of what I what I do. Even Even to the point of the research that we do, I have always been interested in research. Okay, I like your way back probably better than mine, I've always been curious about how things are, and how they got to be that way. And if they need to be changed how people see them change and things like that. And I do all that. When I conceptualize a piece of research, it is always in the back of my head, How can teachers or educators or education authorities if if they like how might this help them to improve what students are offered as education in classrooms towards not necessarily as I said, being certified because you know, you can you can coach a person to pass an exam and get a certificate and then that's all well and good that schooling, but certainly to call themselves educated. That is the driving force for me.

Lindsay Persohn: 24:46

Well, CJ, what you've said about young people in schools and also about continuous learning for teachers. I think for me, it just really points to this idea of what it means to bring your whole self To what your learning, I think we've done a lot of people a real disservice by separating what happens inside of school from what happens outside of school and thinking that we don't bring our whole selves to school, whether you are a student, or whether you are a teacher, because we can't really check those things at the door, right and without feeling fractured in that work. And as you put it without just going to school for the purpose of doing school or to be schooled. And that doesn't necessarily lead to this lifelong curiosity that I think you just embody so very well. But we had more people in the world who were curious and enthusiastic about learning and ready to contribute to their communities. I think we could live in a very different place. And yes, it might sound a little utopian. But there are so many aspects of that mindset that I think could help to improve conditions for everyone.

CJ Leacock: 25:55

Very much very much so.

Lindsay Persohn: 25:56

So CJ, is there anything else you'd like us to know about the work that you are doing at the Caribbean Educational Research Center?

CJ Leacock: 26:03

Well, a little bit about the the center. First, before we talk about the work that we're doing the center is it is one of the things that I dreamt about when I was a student in the School of Education, a means of getting research data and analyzing the data within the Caribbean context, within understanding the context of the Caribbean, the Center is funded through the joint agreement between the university West Indies Cave Hill campus and US aid. And part of the rationale or for having the center is that we can make research data and publications more accessible to researchers and other educators, the problem is in the region, that there are things that exist, but they do not exist in a single place. And it's often very difficult to get to them. So if a researcher wants to read upon what is existing for a particular thing, they might have to write around and ask around and they may not get, you know, you might do a Google search and nothing comes up. But I know that there's stuff available because I've worked with people who produce this and who produce that produce the next it is just not in an accessible form. So part of what the center is, is to make this available the data or or literature, publications, whether it's a published information, technical papers, policy, papers, anything that relates to education within the region, that we want to make it available in a single place, so that people can have access to it, that they can, it can drive their own research. And the reason why we're talking about driving research is because for ages in the region, we have had a situation where a lot of research that is done in education in other areas as well. But I'm going to focus on education, of course, because that's, that's my playground, that a lot of the research that's done in education is done by and I say a lot that is shared internationally, it's done by persons who come into the region collected, and then take the data back into their own situation. And I'm sure must have said this a zillion times already. Take it back into their own context, and interpret the data within their context, and then find this wanting. And I think that that was unfair to a lot of what is happening within the region, you cannot take a lot of the data from the Caribbean region and interpret it through some other lens, you have to understand the Caribbean context, the Caribbean context, like everywhere else has its own ethos has its own way of being has its own culture, and its own language. And sometimes even the research that is done by other persons. If you for example, you interview somebody and they're saying something, and as a Caribbean person, if I'm watching them while they're speaking, I know to ask another question, because there's this thing in the Caribbean. And it is it is experiences small states as well. The concept of managed intimacy, I think people like low and fall and and Mark Bray who writes about small states might have mentioned it, it is where you recognize that you have to meet somebody in several different contexts. In this one, you might be the one in the power position, and you relate to them in that way. In this other context, that person might be the one in the power position, and now you have to relate to them as somebody who's subordinate. And in order to manage these many different ways in which you meet the same individuals and the different hats that people wear, you tend not to want to antagonize people too. much, you tend not to want to ruffle too many feathers, if you want to put it that way, you you know, you just want to try and get along with persons because you are going to be meeting them so many other places. So if you're conducting an interview about a particular thing, you're asking teachers about their principal, or you're asking a principal about their teachers in an interview, the person might hem and haw a bit. The person might use certain language that sounds as though they are uncertain of what is going on. And you might say, well, here's a principal who doesn't seem to know what's happening in his school. But that is not the case. Here's a principal who wants to ensure that if the person who he's speaking about hears this interview, or gets a when the whatever is in this interview, that he has not offended them. Now, you have to understand that kind of context so that when they're using certain language and a certain body language, that they look uncertain, don't say, go and say, well, principal X appeared not to know anything about this stuff, or what have you, I might ask a different question off the record, to clarify that to understand so that when you in your report, you know, you know how to say and you might, you might give them a chance to clarify their behavior off the record kind of thing. So that even if you don't publish it, you go with that understanding. And so when you're interpreting the principal's words and behaviors, you're interpreting it with that understanding within that context, which will be fairer than to say, well, he appeared not to know what's happening in his school or in his community, you see what I mean? So this, a lot of things like this tend to happen when people use language, the language, the words that that we might use, might mean one thing to us, but they might mean something else to you. Now, if you do not understand the language that I am using, and how I might use a particular word, you will interpret it with your knowledge of that word, which might give a totally different picture from what I was trying to paint when I said it. So So we've always had research happening, that I felt happen in this way. And that we needed, we needed to have indigenous, if you want to call it that research that, that comes that is planned and conducted in the region by people who understand the region, and who understand the ambiguities of the region and the way how people interact with each other, because of the whole notion of, of managed intimacy and, and other small state dynamics that happen that are not necessarily in play in larger countries. Another example, if you're conducting research in in, say, in the US, or Canada or the UK, you might say something like a certain official from a US District. Now, if you do that in Barbados, and you say, a chief education officer in Barbados, there's only one, you see what I mean? Right. And, and people are aware of this. So

Lindsay Persohn: 33:07

Yeah. they're very much aware of what they're saying to you. Because if you cite them as saying this as, say, the chief education officer or the Education Officer for mathematics, there's only one in Barbados, so one in each of the other countries. So people will hedge what they say, because they are aware of what is the possible import. So now, how do you reassure people that you're going to report this is such a way that they remain anonymous? Sometimes Sometimes it is impossible to do that. So then what do you report, we needed an entity that understood these kinds of dynamics, so that when we conduct research, we take them into consideration when we do our interpretations and when we do our reporting. And so the Caribbean Educational Research Center is ideally placed for that it is it is Caribbean people conducting Caribbean research. But of course, the center we suffer from us most small states do from a small pool of expertise. So now how do we widen our pool of expertise. So one of the things that we do within the center is to form partnerships with persons who might bring a greater number of persons who can be involved in the research, who might have other skills that we do not have, but we do not allow them to just, you know, apply them liberally across the board. We are there to help with with what they're doing and how they look at the data and so on what we can do on our own because of the small pool, use partnerships and so on to do that. But what we are also doing in the center is providing training to widen the pool of people with research skills within the region as well. So that we do not always have to be dependent on on partnerships, we may there may not necessarily be an entity who wants to partner with us on a particular investigation that we want to do, they may not have an interest in doing it. So does that mean that we can't do it. So we are aware of providing training for persons, updating, upgrading their skills as researchers so that they too, can share with others and the wider we widen the pool in that way. And so within the center, we have research fellows who are technically postdoc persons, people who recently got their their PhDs. And we have research assistants, the research assistants, our current students in education, well, current students, not necessarily in education, initially, it was in education. Since we are we see ourselves as an interdisciplinary, conducting interdisciplinary research. We also have people who are in other areas, who would like to marry whatever area they're in with something related to education. So we have graduate students who are research assistants. And they too, are getting training, not only to help the center, but also that will assist them with their own research that they're doing that they have to produce as a students, because of course, as a student, the goal is to get that degree. And so we give them support, as they themselves, sharpen their own skills, and then make a contribution to the center as it grows. Another thing that the center is working on within the region, there's always a suspicion that research people coming in to ask you questions, it is very, very, very hard to collect data from schools and so on within the region, from ministries within the region. Because of course, there is a notion no matter how hard you try to disguise things, we're just too small we can be identified. So there's always a bit of suspicion in research, not only in data collection, but using sharing and using the findings, the results from the research that is done. And one of the things that we aim to do in the center, is to try to strengthen the research culture within the region. So So what do we do? We have promotions, where we talk about the research that we're doing, we have a website, and one of the features of that website, it isn't quite ready yet would be a page for professionals, where we will not just publish, you know, the research in in an academic way, but in a way that will appeal to practitioners, by showing them how the the research and the findings can inform their work. So here's a finding, what are the implications for teaching language arts? Here's a finding, what's the implication for using technology, this form of technology in your classroom? Here's a finding what is the implication? And then we encourage the the practitioners to use these things, and they communicate with us, tell us what's working, tell us what didn't work. So we want to get people involved in using the research. We want ministries of education to use the research to inform their planning, and when they're doing particular things, we want them to come to us when they want when they want to do something, are they putting something in place to get research data collected? Is this particular thing that we're putting in place? Is it effective. So you might do a small, a small implementation of it, and have a piece of research done and see well, what can be changed and what you could keep as it is what you should reject based on research findings. So we'll be talking about evidence driven practice, both at the policy level, as well as the classroom, you know, the practice level, and we we are interested in ensuring that the stakeholders who need it have the evidence that they need, and it doesn't necessarily mean just research conducted by us, but conducted by us and our partners, but but it is done in a way that takes into consideration the Caribbean context. So we have our research assistants and research fellows. They go to conferences, they've recently attended the AERA conference, and of course, the upcoming conference with USF as well. They are preparing for that as well where they will share their work we have Instagram and Instagram account. And right now what they're doing is they call it Instagram takeover each week. One of them is a featured, talk about the research that they're doing. And all this is this an attempt to remove the research from just the the academic realm where we write things that we publish in highly academic journals to bring it down to the level of the classroom, the usefulness of the research, so that we change that culture of distrust or the feeling that we sometimes hear them say, you come in, you collect data, we never hear from you again. So we're trying to break that. And you have to understand why we need to work with them. Because in one country for, for example, right here, we have 21, secondary schools, public secondary schools, and we might have grad students, we have more than 21 grad students. So if we have if each one of them, even if each one of them is assigned a school, some schools are going to have to be doubled up. And some schools have certain characteristics, that when you know how the children are assigned to the schools, if you're doing research in a particular area, you have to go to the schools. And so we have to share our findings with the schools so that they can see what's in it for them, as well. So we are engaging in those kinds of activities, to help the schools that we collect data from and the the jurisdictions in which we collected to see the usefulness of it, and that we're not just collecting the data to get a nice publication to you know, put on our CV, yes, we have to do that as academics, you know, within the university context, we are in a research oriented University. So we must do that. But we also want to be able to share what we have what we find with persons who are practicing in the classroom. So that's some of the thinking behind the center and the activities that we are engaging in at the moment. So CJ, if someone who is listening has done work in the Eastern Caribbean, or is interested in doing work there, would you encourage them to reach out and and make contact with the center?

CJ Leacock: 42:07

Yes, indeed, especially the particle who have done work. One of the products of the center is a repository for literature relating to research done, either within the Caribbean or among Caribbean people. Now, we know that there are, for example, there are students who might not have done their graduate work at the University of the West Indies, in other universities, but because they may have a Caribbean background, they would have conducted the research within the Caribbean, and they have produced their their their thesis or dissertation, and it is there. If it is possible, we would love to have you to share that information with us, shares the document, and give us permission to have it available in our repository. So that if somebody is within our repository, searching for literature, past research that's done on a particular area, and this is your area, one of your keywords there, your work would pop up. Now, yes, it gives visibility to the work that you're doing, for sure. But it also helps persons who are interested in carrying on conversations that have started through research into different areas and to add to the body of knowledge, to grow that body of knowledge, to see what you have done. And to be able to either maybe look at your methodology and see if it is one that they might use or, or if they think something else could be could have been done, that they can design their own study to reflect anything that they thought was a you know, was warranted within your own study. And and as researchers, we have to understand that as time goes on, other people will look at our work, and they will see things in it that they're considered to be weaknesses, we might we will do the best that we can at a particular time. But later on when situations change and a different. People might say, well, if I have to do this study, I couldn't do that, because it certainly wouldn't work. So now they might want to build on it. They might want to change it, they might want to ask like I always do, what if so what if this study were done in among early childhood students rather than upper primary school students? And there you go, what would the results be? If instead of teachers in nursery schools, I looked at teachers in secondary schools, so you you make your work available, and we will be happy to add it to our repository. And for people who are interested in doing research currently, we have a research agenda that is set for us by a committee that we have called the regional research advisory committee. And that committee is made up of persons from ministries of education In the National colleges, the development partners and what have you, and they look and say, Okay, these are areas that we want you to investigate, because they're having an impact on education now. So we're looking at things like factors that influence student achievement. We're looking at the impact of technology, on education, we're looking at COVID. You know, nowadays, you can't look at education in any context without taking into consideration what COVID has done, the changes that it has brought about and how these changes affect how students achieve in school, we're looking at well being health and well being within the region, we have a challenge of growing non communicable diseases among children. Children are now exhibiting what were common once called Old People's diseases, they're having strokes, or obesity, they're having heart issues, they're having diabetes, they're having hypertension. What is the impact of all of this on student achievement? How does it affect what happens in the classroom, and work in schools and ministries do, you may not be able to, to educate the children so that they make better health choices? A lot of children are suffering from stress in the region we've had. We've had volcanic eruptions. We've had hurricanes that flattened at places, we've had a pandemic, we've had a rise in violence, children are experiencing things and they are experiencing anxiety within schools. How do we help children? What is the impact of this? What are they experiencing? And how does this affect their learning, and they've been educated. These are things that are on our list, we're looking at student performance in particular subject areas, specifically, mathematics, literacy, because these are globally, these are areas of concern. But so they're also of concern here, despite all of the training that we give our teachers, the children, the performance is not sometimes it's not getting any worse, but it isn't getting any better. And the whole idea of doing all these things is that it will get better. So what's happening there. So these are some of the priority, we call them priority areas. So anybody who, you know, interested in anything, any one of those in the Caribbean wants to do comparative research, the center is open for these kinds of discussions, things that can happen in that way, we are also open to other kinds of research as well. But naturally, they will be outside of the rise, you know, the rise funding, we can seek funding to do to do other things, as well. So yes, we are open to partnerships, to new ideas to new viewpoints, but all with a looking at the Caribbean context. And now that does not mean that we don't look at anything coming from anywhere else. Because of course, if you also want your research to to have a global appeal, you also want your research persons who are looking at your research to see how it fits into the global conversations about education. And so it isn't that, oh, we're in this little spot of we're keeping it here. And that's that, not at all. But we also want to make sure that when we do research within the region, that we communicate to the international community, in a way that they understand how education in the region is, is delivered, how it is provided, and why the constraints that we have, are not just the constraints, because some very good things come out as well. And we want to be able to share those good things as well, because even in the larger countries, they have small communities that reflect small states that, you know, they have the same, the same type of population, you know, most of the countries within the region have less than 300,000 persons. And that's a little community in perhaps in the UK or Canada or somewhere else. And so, um, literature has shown that a lot of the concerns that we have a small states also exist in small communities, especially if they're isolated communities, we can share in that way or look across cultures across languages and what have you. So we're not saying that we're closing the gates and say we only let you in if you if you can show something Caribbean? Not at all, but we want to ensure that the research that comes out of the Caribbean is a true reflection of what is happening here in education. Both the yes the bad but also the good as well, which is I think sometimes is overlooked.

Lindsay Persohn: 50:02

Now, I would agree that thank you so much for that overview of the work that's going on at the center right now, we will be sure to add a link to your guests page to the show notes for this episode, and it will also put your email address for the center in your opening and the bio statement as well.

CJ Leacock: 50:20

Great. Thanks, so.

Lindsay Persohn: 50:23

So CJ, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

CJ Leacock: 50:30

I think it's probably a message that's been that's been going that's been out there for a long time. And I know it's challenging for teachers to actually to respond to it. Because there is more play than just what happens in the classroom. There's the society, and what happens within the society, I would like to say, just see, see each child that comes into your classroom, as an individual, respect your students, no matter their background, no matter what language they speak, when they come into the classroom, there are human beings. And you know, just as adults expect to be treated in a particular way, sort of the children, they may not have the power, and quite often, because they don't have the power in an adult child relationship, the children don't have the power, but as human beings, they should have the respect. And quite often we expect children to respect us as teachers in the classroom. And then we can be fairly harsh to the children. And they will, they will react because they are human beings. And if you you know, if you hit the person often enough, at some point in time, they might lash out at you. And when that happens, you can then find reasons to blame the child, you have to look at yourself, I would say to teachers, be reflective, when something happens in the classroom, if a child isn't getting it, don't always look at it as the fault of the child, ask yourself, Is there something I am doing? That is getting in the way of this child understanding in the past, classrooms were little little silos, you go in there, you shut the door. And as you and your students, I think that that has to change, we have to learn to work collaboratively with our colleagues, and especially within the Caribbean region, we have to open our doors and let people come in. And when those people come in, they have to understand that they're coming in for constructive criticism. Only, you know, if you're going to say something wasn't good, why wasn't it good? And what would you suggest, you know, things like things like that, so that you have a sort of collegiality or community nowadays we sit, we speak about communities of practice, and learning communities, whatever you call them, the the name that you give, it is not the important thing. It is the functioning of it, what it does, that is important, learn to communicate with colleagues to communicate. And colleagues don't necessarily have to be people within your own school, you know, their neighboring schools, their primary schools and secondary schools. So because you're teaching at a secondary school doesn't mean that you only communicate with secondary schools, because the children from the primary schools will become your students in a couple of years. So to form communities, with schools at different levels from different places. Even with the technology, you can have it now with different countries, and learn how to operate within a diverse community. The world is becoming such a place that people move from one place to another, and can do so fairly easily. And when people move, they bring their children with them. And if they're coming, and they bring the children on these children come into the classroom, try to be a bit more open and welcoming. Try to understand that the different cultures that come into the classroom, and rather than make the children feel that that what they're doing is, is bad, because it is not what you're accustomed to try to learn about what they're doing and embrace the good, the good things that are there. Show them how you're different. Show them how you do things differently. Let them show you how they do things differently, and build that kind of community and atmosphere in your classroom. Now, if you're wondering why I'm saying saying this is because within the region, we are getting more and more persons from other islands and from even outside of the region coming into our classrooms, and we can't make children feel that because they're doing things differently because they might dress differently because the food that they might bring for lunch is not what we are accustomed to seeing that there's something wrong or inferior. We have to teach our children that different means not the same as it doesn't mean better or worse. There's no judgment in different it just means not this Same as. And if something is not the same as something else, try to understand the differences. Look for the areas of commonality. And not only you, as a teacher do that, but encourage your students to do that. So that we don't have prejudices so that we learn to embrace differences. And we learn to get along with persons. I mean, sometimes it sounds cliched, a little bit, so, but really and truly, that's what it is that we have to learn to get along with other people, no matter what their differences are. So I should probably just say, just educate the children, because if they're educated, then these things do not become a problem. You know, you do not see differences as a problem, you see differences as things that to embrace, to learn from, to learn about, and to let people be, because you want people to respect your right to be a certain way. The same thing for the children. And don't think that because they're little, and they're young, that they don't have anything to say that they're we've long since got written have gotten rid of the notion that children are tabula rasa, you know, that they're just empty, just waiting for you to fill them. And from the time they're born, they're having experiences, and those experiences what they bring to the classroom. And so we have to find out what those experiences are, and and use them to help these children to become lifelong learners to become educated to become critical thinkers to become good communicators. That's, that's probably what I would, I would say to teachers in the classroom. And notice, I'm not saying how to do it, because what happened, what might work in my setting might not work in yours. So you have to keep yourself informed, as teachers as the what, what are the best practices under this condition, what I would say to teachers, is to always make sure that you you go with professional development, you know, sometimes teachers see professional development as a burden. But if you're really, really serious about being an educator, not just a transmitter of knowledge, but an educator, then professional development is key, you have to keep yourself up to date, you have to keep your skills current, you cannot be teaching children in 2023, in the same way that I was taught in the 19. Back then, the sad thing is that some things that I experienced in school, I am seeing some children experiencing the same things today. And I think that some there's something wrong with that. No. And it is not necessarily because the thing that I experienced back then is still relevant now, it is that this is what the teachers know. And I think with professional development, you bring your, your skills, and so on up to scratch. So I am saying that if you keep your skills and your way of thinking and the needs of the children foremost in your mind and keep professional development, I think you'd be going on long way to help the children and, and I am not, I'm not an ostrich, my head is not in the sand, I do not believe that everything would go perfect. I don't believe in that at all. But certainly some things can be improved along the way. And the way how I see it, the last thing that I would probably say to teachers is when you see children in front of you, yes, we all know that not all of them can be saved. But my thing is, I don't know which ones can be. So I treat them all as though they can be and then they can distinguish themselves as to where they will go. So I treat all of my students as though they can be successful. And I know that not all of them will be I mean, that's the reality of it. Because as I said before, there are other things that are in play besides what happens in my classroom. But I know that not all of them are going to turn out to be the way that you would want them to be. But I don't decide who will be I treat them all as though they will be and then their own actions will determine a good way of seeing your students when you stand up in front of them a bunch of successes sitting in front of you, and you treat them as though they are you speak to them in that way. And you deal with them in that way.

Lindsay Persohn: 59:28

Absolutely. What a powerful message. CJ, thank you so much. And I want to thank you for your time today and thank you for your contributions to the field of education.

CJ Leacock: 59:38

I thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share my views with your with your listeners. And I hope that something that was said might motivate somebody to become a better teacher because the children you know, they are children, that's all I can say

Lindsay Persohn: 1:00:00

Support and you know,

CJ Leacock: 1:00:00

they need our support and they need our guidance. And they don't always need or the negative things that we that we give them. There's enough of that in society, and they get that, you know, without leaving their homes, so they shouldn't have to get it when they come into our classrooms.

Lindsay Persohn: 1:00:17

well, thank you so much, CJ.

CJ Leacock: 1:00:19

Thanks, Lindsay.

Lindsay Persohn: 1:00:20

Dr. Coreen J. Leacock currently serves as Project Coordinator for the RISE Caribbean research team. Dr. Leacock is known for her work in the areas of literacy and numeracy including the teaching and learning of mathematics, student achievement, technology use and education, democratizing classrooms and literacy across the curriculum. She has served in the field of education for over 35 years with 15 years experience as a secondary mathematics and reading teacher 15 years as a university lecturer in Mathematics Education and Research Methods in the School of Education at the University of West Indies Cave Hill. Through her research, she seeks to identify best practices for teaching and learning mathematics in early childhood, primary and secondary classrooms in the region with special interest in the use of technology to enhance classroom experiences. She shares her knowledge and expertise through research publications, conference presentations, workshops and seminars in schools and other forums across the eastern Caribbean region. Her work has appeared in The Journal of Eastern Caribbean Studies. Open practice, the Australasian Journal of Educational Technology, and her co authored book titled research methods for inexperienced researchers guidelines for investigating the social world as well as other venues. Coreen received her bachelor's degree in and teaching certificate from the Ernest and Teacher's College in Barbados, her master's degree in educational research and her PhD in education with a focus on educational technology, educational change and a mathematics education are from the University of Cambridge in the UK. Dr. Coreen J. Leacock is a senior lecturer in Mathematics Education and Research Methods in the School of Education at the University of the West Indies Cavehill, the Academic Coordinator for the Eastern Caribbean Joint Board of teacher education and she serves as a project coordinator for the rise Caribbean initiative. You can reach CJ and the Caribbean Educational Research Center at sea er Center at Cavehill dot u wi.edu. That's C er C E n t r e at Cavehill dot u wi.edu. For the good of all students classroom caffeine aims to energize education research and practice. If this show provides you with things to think about, don't keep it a secret. Subscribe, like and review this podcast through your preferred podcast provider. I also invite you to connect with the show through our website at WWW dot classroom caffeine.com where you can learn more about each guest. Find transcripts for many episodes, explore episode topics using our tagging feature, support podcast, research through our survey, request an episode topic or a potential guest or share your own questions that we might respond to through the show. We would love to hear from you. As always, I raised my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me