In this inaugural episode, Dr. David Reinking talks to us about formative design research in the classroom. Dr. Reinking is known for his longstanding commitment to education and his contributions to the field of design-based research. David is a Distinguished Professor at Clemson University and works as a semi-retired Professor at the University of Georgia.
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2020, Nov. 12). A conversation with David Reinking. (Season 1, No. 1) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/6D16-B6A3-2926-6A4A-CAEF-I
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.
In this inaugural episode, Dr. David Reinking talks to us about formative design research in the classroom. Dr. Reinking is known for his longstanding commitment to education and his contributions to the field of design-based research. David is a Distinguished Professor at Clemson University and works as a semi-retired Professor at the University of Georgia.
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2020, Nov. 12). A conversation with David Reinking. (Season 1, No. 1) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/6D16-B6A3-2926-6A4A-CAEF-I
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.
Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom Caffeine is here to help. Each week I invite a top education researcher to sit down and talk with teachers about what they have learned from years of study. This week, Dr. David Reinking tells us about formative design research in the classroom. Dr. Reinking is known for his long standing commitment to education, and his contributions to the field of design based research. David is a distinguished professor at Clemson University, and works as a semi retired professor at the University of Georgia. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of the episode. So pour a cup of your favorite morning drink. And join me your host, Lindsay Persohn, for Classroom Caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Thank you so much for talking with me today. David, I really appreciate your time.
David Reinking:It's my pleasure to be here and it's a wonderful opportunity to talk directly to teachers through this new digital media.
Lindsay Persohn:So I just have a few questions for you today that I'm hoping you will answer for us to help teachers understand the work you've done. So from your own experiences in education, would you please share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?
David Reinking:Well, certainly hard to choose and as I reflect back on my experiences of being a classroom teacher, there were so many opportunities in which I had to learn about how, how to be a good teacher, and the students taught me many things. But I think today, you would like me maybe to talk a little bit about my experiences during my career as an educational researcher. And I think of one event that was, I sometimes call it a conversion experience, but when I was in my doctoral program many, many years ago at the University of Minnesota, preparing to become we didn't we didn't have literacy researchers then we had reading researchers. And my preparation, like all of my peers was to do scientific experiments was the model that we use to conduct our work, we learned a lot of statistics. And early on in my career, that's the way I approached doing research in classrooms. You had a experimental group with some particular educational intervention, and you had a control group and then you gathered a lot of quantitative data, and you analyzed it statistically. So oh, I guess it was in the 1990s, I got a grant, a small grant from our professional organization to do a study because it related to doing what we call book reviews, as opposed to book or book reports, because we're using technology for students to do not book reports. But to use multimedia; it was very crude in those days, to re react to the books they were reading, and a middle school. And almost from day one, it was not just a failed experiment, it was a disaster. And we for, for example, the principal of the school had the audacity to move all of the readers who were struggling into one of the teachers classrooms, which of course is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, because she was the best teachers and the principals mind. And we said, Wait, you can't do that. It'll mess up our statistical analysis. Then some of the control group teachers saw what we're what our experimental group teachers were doing they say, I want to do that too. And we say, wait, you can't do that now because that'll mess up our experiment. Well, he may be get this the idea here that the things that we were trying to do on our research were at odds with good instruction and the decisions that people were making. And we were forcing the the world of education to conform to our experimental model. And it was a very clear, very clear thing to me that there's something amiss here. And about that time, I read an article in Educational Researcher by a fella named Dennis Newman and he wrote about what he called a formative experiment. And I because I'll back up just a minute when we was debriefing with my graduate students who were helping me on this project was, wow, this really failed. But we did learn some things. But then one of the students also used a phrase that caused us pause and was part of my conversions. He says, Well, sure we had these difficulties, because the teacher is a nuisance variable. And in the world of statistics, yes, that's true. But as we look around as we wait a minute, that is not an appropriate way to talk about our good colleagues in the classroom. So impressed on me that we were clearly at odds with what was going on. And so Dennis Newman, this formative experiment, he said, you know, this is there other ways to think about doing research in classrooms. And it involves an approach and attitude, a rationale that fits, it fits what is going on in classrooms in a way that allows us to find out more about what could is happening and could be happening without the research methodology getting in the way. So that was my, that was my conversion experience. And maybe, I hope is a response to your your question.
Lindsay Persohn:Absolutely, it sure is. And, David, my next question for you is, what would you like teachers to know about your research?
David Reinking:Well, I guess what I'd most like them to know is that the approach I use what I call formative experiments, after Dennis Newman, or which is often rewarded for doing a more general sense of design based research, is very much aligned with what teachers do every day. Sort of the essence of teaching, I think, is, you see a difficulty, a challenge or you have a goal, and you try something. And you see if it works. And hopefully, if it doesn't work, you think about why isn't it working? Or if it does work, you say, Well, why is it working so well, so that I can do the same thing next time? And in a nutshell, that's what this research is. And we just do it a little more systematically. We have a goal, a pedagogical goal that we want to accomplish, and maybe something learn and maybe a new skill, or whatever might be a goal, instructional goal in a classroom. And we think about an intervention that we think has potential to achieve that goal. And we draw on existing research or theoretical perspectives, whatever the justify that, that, that the goal is an important one, and that the intervention is a reasonable way to go about doing that, but we have no illusions, that first conception of that intervention will be perfect and work perfectly. So we connect with teachers who buy into our goal and are at least willing to try the intervention, we try to specify some essential elements of that intervention that you know, usually maybe three, three things that you know, it has to have discussion, or it has to have this I mean, a very general, that, you know, we have the the we have to do these things, but there are many, many ways we can do them. And we negotiate with the teachers with whatever context or in other situations they will they have to have these three things. But you know, there are lots of ways of doing that. So let's talk about that. How can we make that happen in your classroom, and that becomes our first iteration of a, of this intervention. And then we, so we follow their lead, we don't, you know, the only you have is we don't make them sign a contract. But basically, they have to say, you have to make some, for us to work together, we have to make some space. And it has to have these two or three things. We may offer suggestions they want, you know how it might have, but we sort of form a partnership with the teachers. And then we just dive in and try it. And we collect data, sometimes the teacher is literally a research partner, but sometimes they don't want it to be, it's fine. We ask several questions how one is what is enhancing or inhibiting in terms of this intervention in reaching the goal? And we ask what are the unintended consequences that seem to be happening, which is something a lot of research methods tend to just ignore, and yet sometimes can be extremely important. We ask is the environment being transformed in any significant way because we've spent a lot of time in the classroom before we work with actually implement the intervention so we think we've got a pretty good understanding of it. And you know, maybe we see for example, that there's a lot of a lot of teachers on at a less student talk. And so as we move along, well, maybe this intervention is changing that dynamic in some way. So we find continually fine tune the intervention based on the data that we're getting. So we capitalize on the aspects of the intervention that seem to be enhancing its effectiveness in whatever sense, and try to neutralize those things that seem to or make adjustments that address those things that aren't working. That's why I say the model is just a little more systematic thing that teachers do every day. So it's usually a pretty, the hard part is getting them to let loose of their conception of education research as an experiment. And they want us to be in charge and tell them what to do. And they are a little bit disoriented when we say, no, no, we want to work together on this and there is no set plan in advance. And that that's sometimes a little disorienting, we have to work.... We also have to help them understand that failure is data that we are we are afraid of failure, we don't end up in education research, we do not publish about our failures. And yet an engineering, they actually go out of their way to try to find where something fails, we don't have to try it happens naturally in education. So, you know, I can remember times when I've gone in, to speak with teachers in the middle of a project, and they have kind of a sad look and they say, you know, it's just not working. And then I go good. Not good in that sense. But wow, we have an opportunity here to learn something. Why isn't it working? So we're also very sensitive to teachers reactions, sometimes it's just when we say something, you sort of sense a look in their eyes, and this isn't comfortable for them. We want to know why. It's okay. Even resistance to something where... I one of my students, I was working with a teacher where she promised she was going to do something related to the intervention, she gets there, she doesn't do it. She comes back the next day, she says you can do it. And pretty soon you're, wait a minute, there's some reason that she's not doing this, so let's talk about it. And we figured out some interesting things about her perceptions and things that could be done that that met that the their concerns, and that is really gives us some very deep pedagogical insights that are not just interesting from an intellectual point of view or a research point of view, but informs practice. So one of the distinct benefits of this approach of research is, we're not looking for grand theories. We're looking for what we call pedagogical assertions, or theories, or some people call them design principles. So they're immediately relevant to teachers classroom practice, but they're not.... And we get published in good research journals too. And it's sometimes a little hard because some of our colleagues don't quite understand this, although it's becoming much more common in the literature and easier to publish this type of work. But the other interesting thing about this approach to research is it originated within the field of education. Our other methods of research, the scientific method, the qualitative ethnographic approaches are all sort of imported from other fields. But design based research, and you know, that's where it gets its name, we're trying to design good instruction, and what can we learn from the process of design? And so it's much closer to the world of practice. And interestingly, it's a very easy sell to many of my colleagues who are researchers, because they say, finally, it's an approach where I can actually consider myself as a researcher, but don't have to give up the instincts that I have and the values I have as a classroom teacher, because most of us have been classroom teachers. Well, so I guess that's my response to your your second question.
Lindsay Persohn:And that leads very naturally to the next question. You've of course published a book on formative design. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about how teachers can use these ideas on their own maybe with some printed resources, if they don't have a university, they can reach out to the partner in the way you have worked with other teachers. How can teachers use these principles of formative design to shape their own practice and perhaps to reframe their thinking around failure in education and how do we learn from that?
David Reinking:Well, you know, it's, as I said, in my response, it's a matter of degree. I mean, teachers are doing this every day, we're just doing a little more systematically, but there may be are some things I hadn't really thought that much about it. But I think there, there are some things that might inform teachers, by being familiar with at least the general format or rationale for for this approach. One, as I just referred to, we all fail. And we're hard on ourselves. And somewhere along the line, we got the idea that, you know, you know, failure means that we're a failure.
Lindsay Persohn:And that everything has to be perfect.
David Reinking:And that's right. And, and this approach, you know, allows you to forgive yourself, and be comfortable with yourself. And, and one of the interesting things about our research as well, I think I may be the only person with some of my doctoral students who have published an article that wasn't exactly documenting failure, but it was documenting that we didn't succeed the way we thought we would. And we really learned a lot. And one of the things we learned is that the goal that we were trying to accomplish, pedagogically, was really, really difficult to attain. And I think that's important for teachers to realize some things are just really hard to accomplish. And that gives you a little more confidence and peace of mind to to know that, hey, I'm not the only one that's having difficulty with this, these guys did this research, they worked in classrooms, and they documented that it's not an easy thing to do. So I'm a good company. But there are some parallels of this approach to action research that some teachers may be familiar with, where teachers are the researchers. So there's a, you know, there are a lot of good sources available to acquaint teachers with with that those kinds of perspectives where maybe they're at least in the back of their mind, somewhere they're considering, so I'm like a researcher, I'm doing the kinds of things the researchers doing. And to, you know, when I, when I taught teacher ed courses, you know, all the pre service teachers want to know about classroom management, how do I manage behavior? And I said, well, that's an important thing. But there's an equally important thing, and that is you managing your own behavior. So behavior management has two dimensions. I don't mean that in a negative sense. I mean, it means simply reflecting on what I do, and its effects. And maybe there's a better way, maybe certain things I'm doing are not in my interest, best interest as a teacher, and perhaps not the best interest. So this, this reflection on what I'm doing, and it kind of is, is more of a neutral thing in a framework like this, you know, it's not like baring your soul, it's just a more detached way of viewing your own practice.
Lindsay Persohn:And I think there's some power in that detachment, because then we can forgive ourselves for mistakes we've made and move forward and learn from them in order to build a positive practice for ourselves and students.
David Reinking:And you know, another thing that's, you know, we typically try to do this in teams. And so, you know, we're not alone. You know, in the sessions that we were in this morning, we talked about communities of practice being more than, you know, meeting once in a while with your colleagues. There's some kind of a supportive community actually there, this goes by many different names.... There's something called Japanese lesson studies that if anyone is interested, they might look up where this originated in Japan, thus the name, where the teachers work very collaboratively and analytically, together in working towards common pedagogical goals. And so this methodology has a lot of different branches and tributaries that kind of spring from the same central core of ideas.
Lindsay Persohn:So could can you summarize that process for us? I know you gave us sort of a step by step earlier, a play by play, but if a teacher wanted to try something new today, what what might might they do?
David Reinking:Well, you know, I empathize with teachers. They're living in the moment. Yeah, that it's hard to find time to do that kind of reflection but, and I think part of that is a structural problem, they are not provided with time, the appropriate amount of time to plan and think and reflect. But to the extent that that is, that's possible, you know, going through kind of, in this is something I impress on pre service teachers to, you know, you don't just go through the motions because somebody said, think through why is this important? You know, and the ultimate scheme of things, what I'm teaching this is this goal, is it really a worthy goal? Can I can I explain why it's important to do someone else? I think that's a good starting point. And then, you know, wherever you, you know, what makes you think this particular approach or intervention, and goodness knows some teachers do not have this kind of freedom today. But, you know, what makes this a good option? And don't expect it to work perfectly the first time and what seems to make it work well, or not so well and what can I do about I don't know, it's, it's maybe a little over simplistic, but it's that it's very parallel to the kinds of things we do and in our research.
Lindsay Persohn:David, my next question for you is, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?
David Reinking:Well, I'm tempted to say you have my sympathies, and maybe hang in there. One of the things that drew me to teaching and was most satisfactory to me what I was a teacher was the ability to think creatively, and do things that may be a little wild and crazy, but fun to do with my students. And I think I had, at least it wasn't just all that was, that might help them in some unique way, or engage them in some sort of way that was a little different, or offbeat, and I relish those moments when I was successful in the teachers letting me do this. And wow, wait, nobody asked us to write, you know, I can remember when one of my students found an error in the old I don't know if people remember the SRA, the reading level stuff that was so popular what I was, and he and that student found an error in a question. And said okay, let's all get together, we're going to write a letter to the company. And we got a response, you know, so it wasn't the great grammar lesson I just did. It was those moments, when I thought I was doing something a little more transcendent, and important and engaging with my students, that that really kept the notion of being a teacher motivating and alive. I think, from what I can tell, and my wife is a teacher, by the way, or a retired teacher, is that there's just too much drudgery and lockstep following of curriculum, curricula, and objectives. And of course testing, I hear time and time again. And somewhere along the line, we've really narrowed the whole objective of teaching and learning in schools to its least common denominator, maybe, you know, the test score progress on this and that, and I think it's it to some extent, it's always been a challenge for a teacher to be creative and rise above those things. But today, it's a huge wall that you have to climb. And I, I have a great deal of respect for those teachers who can manage that. And I think you have to be very, I wouldn't let go of the passions that you have that lead you into teaching. Somehow you have to protect that, and yet manage and survive. And it's very hard for beginning teachers to do that. We know that all the wonderful ideas we give them in our teacher preparation programs, it's very difficult in some cases for them to go out and have to really, if not buck the system, to manage the system and they just don't know how to do that yet and they're vulnerable. So I hope that that you know, for those teachers who are willing to invest in preserving that area of passion and creativity and all all the lofty reasons that we went into education can survive, if not thrive and somehow find a way to keep that alive in their teaching.
Lindsay Persohn:Thank you so much for your time today, David, I appreciate you being here with me for this very first episode, and we look forward to hearing more from you about your work. Thank you. Dr. David Reinking is a prominent researcher in the field of formative design research, technology in reading and writing, and is known for his long standing commitment to education. He is a 2008 inductee into the Reading Hall of Fame. He has had several substantial federally funded grants and has published in Reading Research Quarterly, the Journal of Literacy Research, Journal of Literacy and Technology, Language Arts, Journal of Early Childhood Literacy, and the Journal of Curriculum and Instruction as well as in many edited books. David has been the editor of Reading Research Quarterly and the Journal of Literacy Research. He is a graduate of the University of Minnesota. David started his long career as an elementary and middle school teacher. Dr. Reinking has worked at Rutgers University. He's a distinguished professor at Clemson University, and has been a longtime faculty member and reading education at the University of Georgia where he still works as a semi retired professor. For the good of all students, good research should inform good practice and vice versa. Listeners are invited to respond to our guests, learn more about our guests research, and suggest a topic for an upcoming episode through this podcast's website at ClassroomCaffeine.com. If you've learned something today, or just enjoyed listening, please subscribe to this podcast. I raise my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me.