Classroom Caffeine
Classroom Caffeine
A Conversation with Corrine Wickens
Corrine Wickens talks to us about self-efficacy and identity, teaching as coaching and a translational act, and challenging our assumptions. Corrine is known for her work in the areas of adolescent literacies, disciplinary literacies, and gender and sexuality. Her research interests examine issues of ongoing discourses around sexuality and schooling, gender and sexual characterizations in contemporary young adult literature, and disciplinary-based literacies in secondary teacher education. Her work has appeared in journals like TESOL Quarterly, Children’s Literature Association Quarterly, Voices from the Middle, Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, Urban Review, Journal of Teaching Physical Education, Sex Roles, and International Journal of Qualitative Studies in Education. Dr. Wickens is currently a professor of literacy education and serves as the doctoral program coordinator in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at Northern Illinois University.
To cite this episode: Persohn, L. (Host). (2025, May 13). A conversation with Corrine Wickens. (Season 5, No. 10) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/C98D-5781-A685-2545-D3D1-0
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Education research has a problem the work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom Caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. In this episode, Dr. Corrine Wickens talks to us about self-efficacy and identity, teaching as coaching and a translational act, and challenging our assumptions. Corrine is known for her work in the areas of adolescent literacies, disciplinary literacies and gender and sexuality. Her research interests examine issues of ongoing discourses around sexuality and schooling, gender and sexual characterizations in contemporary young adult literature and disciplinary-based literacies in secondary teacher education. Her work has appeared in journals like TESOL Quarterly, Children's Literature Association Quarterly, Voices from the Middle, Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, Urban Review, Journal of Teaching Physical Education, and International Journal of Qualitative Studies in Education. Dr Wickens is currently a professor of literacy education and serves as the doctoral program coordinator in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at Northern Illinois University.
Lindsay Persohn:For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode. So pour a cup of your favorite drink and join me, your host Lindsay Persohn, for Classroom Caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Corrine, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. So, from your own experiences in education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?
Corrine Wickens:I'd love to the first one is actually going to be kind of outside of education, but I'm going to make it clearly applicable. So just give me a second. It's connected to running of all things. I became a runner in my 40s. Never had I run before. I was never the athlete, I'm an academic, so I've always been kind of geeky and dorky, outcast all of the things. So after I got a job here at Northern Illinois University and I had moved back into the Midwest from being in Texas for over a decade, met with a personal trainer and strikingly in that first conversation she said I think there might be an inner runner in you. Again when I say I was never a runner, I started from zero. Personal training sessions were often the only exercise there for at least a year that I would get. Okay, so got the idea. Well, moving forward faster is I am now a marathoner. I have run four marathons. I am anticipating a fifth and probably final full marathon this upcoming October. I've run I don't know countless number of half marathons over the time frame.
Corrine Wickens:So what's important related to education in there is the point in time when I was just beginning and I saw myself as a struggling runner. I began to think maybe I could do this, maybe I can, maybe not. And there was one particular moment when I, largely running by myself, was trying to find a running group and I looked online, you know, using all the resources, and there was a runner's club. I found the time and place. I was there A few minutes early. Time goes by, time goes by. Nobody shows up. Apparently they had moved the time and place and, like many things, the information was not updated on the website. I'm like, okay, so I try to regather my thoughts together and get myself and my gumption back up and I made it for like 10 minutes. I just didn't have it within me back up and I made it for like 10 minutes. I just didn't have it within me. And one of the things that became impactful that I want to connect to education from that was the notions around self-efficacy and identity.
Corrine Wickens:Self-efficacy, you may or may not know, deals with particular beliefs about what we can accomplish and it's a particular, in specific context. It's different than self-esteem because self-esteem is more global, more holistic. Self-efficacy is about a specific task or content. You know, we might say I'm a math person or I'm not the math person. So oftentimes our self-efficacy in our attitudes, our loves, our interests often intersect because, as I'm going to talk about a little bit later, the things that we are good at we gravitate to and makes it feel as good about ourselves.
Corrine Wickens:So I had this burgeoning self-efficacy at this point in time. I had a really low self-efficacy. Like I said, I'm starting from zero. I have a personal trainer who thinks I can do this despite having no background whatsoever, and so a couple of core elements that are sources of self-advocacy social persuasion role models Bendera and psychologists have more fancier words than this but essentially social persuasion, role models but, most importantly, mastery experiences. When we can accomplish something that's meaningful and purposeful to us, we're like yes, I did it. Because I did it once, now maybe I can do it again. So in my case, it took me a couple of 10Ks before I began building that self-efficacy and it took a couple half marathons.
Corrine Wickens:What's important about this is self-efficacy is slow to change, but I had a trainer like we think about, whether it's for teachers as instructional coaches or students. Their teachers, or literally coaches, do that work all the time. They're trying to build and create opportunities for self-efficacy for their athletes and for their students so that they can be successful, but in the meantime it takes a lot of different tools and supports to help build and change that self-efficacy. So in athletics, it's different training plans, it's different drills. So in athletics, it's different training plans, it's different drills, it's both strength training and cardio, depending on particularly the sport etc.
Corrine Wickens:In school usually we are thinking about trying to break down a big challenge, a big content topic, into smaller pieces so that students can understand this piece. Mathematics is a great example where we learn to add before we learn to subtract, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So we're really good at scaffolding and breaking apart. Unfortunately, we're also not very good at providing educational experiences that are meaningful, because in order to build self-efficacy, the student has to recognize it as important to them. Otherwise it doesn't matter what one says, how important the teacher thinks. None of that really matters if the student doesn't have any buy-in. Same with an athlete. In this case I had a lot of buy-in.
Corrine Wickens:But one of the next things that related to that that I want to highlight is that, as my self-efficacy about my running was changing, what was slower to change was my own identity and because again, I had that point in time, let's just be kind and say 20 years of an identity that was associated you you know, probably 30 years an identity that's associated with reading, with literacy, bookworm, dork, all of those both positive and negative attributes that we associate with such things. But none of that was athlete. None of that was runner, and for me a runner is an athlete. You talk about distance running. For me, that always brought to mind lean and strong, muscular. I'm also none of those. I'm 5'2" kind of squat. One of the things I have since learned is that runners come in all shapes and sizes, but at the beginning I didn't know that yet. So I had this identity that was built and constructed and reinforced by others, by my peers, by my teachers, by myself. Through these vast years of experience, and even as I began to shape and change my self-efficacy related to this one thing running. My identity was slower to change and it didn't happen until after I became a marathoner 26.2 miles. Then, finally, I was a runner.
Corrine Wickens:So when we think about teaching and education, think about teaching and education. How often do we take supports away too quickly? How often do we change initiatives too quickly so we can both talk at the teacher-student level and administrator-teacher level? In this particular case I'm going to try to keep it a teacher-student, but again you see the parallels. But again you see the parallels Oftentimes as students are building their self-advocacies, particularly in areas that have been difficult, but those self-advocacies are slow to change. They are valuable but we often remove the supports too quickly because they've got it. But what then happens, or what is slower to happen, that teachers need to be more aware of, I argue, is our identities that are shaped in the classroom, that are shaped in all of the educational schooling spaces, peer spaces.
Corrine Wickens:I'm a former Title I reading ELA teacher. My early high school students that I first worked with their average reading level for my ninth graders was fifth grade. They had years and years of negative experience with reading and with schooling and so they both had a really low self-efficacy related to reading and a negative identity related to reading. It's going to take a lot of effort on any teacher's part, particularly for secondary teachers. Secondary teachers might have a semester or a year not going to change an identity in a semester or a year. So how can we build and sustain, how can we work and collaborate together to do this work? Because, as I said, it's not going to happen in a short period of time. Nevertheless, we as teachers and educators would behoove ourselves to think more like coaches ourselves, to think more like coaches, and this is something that I have learned over the last 15 years and my respect has grown for coaches because of the ways to think about supporting students and understanding the context of athletic coaches to teaching very different but nevertheless if we can apply some of the same notions around coaching. That's why there's an entire framework of literacy coaches and instructional coaches for teachers. So we are, as teachers ourselves, need to think about ourselves as collaborative coaches with the students. So that's kind of the first education educative moment that I would like to highlight.
Corrine Wickens:The second one is when I came to NIU, I started working with lots of physical education pre-service teachers. I had done so before, but I had never worked with so many my first couple of years. I had upwards of 70 plus PE teachers pre-service and that was across two or three different sections, and one of the first things that I needed to do to be a better teacher was to find collaborators in physical education, and that's what I did. My long-term collaborator is Dr Jenny Parker, so she and I have published now multiple articles, mine from the literacy perspective and hers from physical education. As part of that work, though, I found that I, as a literacy person, I was the one who was reaching out, because these were the students in my class and I knew I needed to do better by them. I needed to be a translator we think about translation relationship to our multilingual learners but in this case it's about the disciplines, and you might be hard-pressed to find any two disciplines that are imagined to be as different and worlds apart as literacy, reading and physical education, and I acknowledge that with my PE teachers, my pre-service PE teachers but I had to learn to understand them and I had to understand their discipline.
Corrine Wickens:So that meant understanding their standards, objectives, priorities and modalities, and the primary modality for physical education is movement. In one article it's called Habits of Practice. One of the things that I learned that, I think, is also important. Connection to this and their idea of movement is physical education teachers. Their number one assumption is Is that students can move. How they move or how willing they are to move, those are different, different ideas, their motivation to move also different, but the general assumption students can move.
Corrine Wickens:That is the primary basis, and one of the things that's important about that is that many of our other disciplines, especially at the secondary level, don't come from an assumption or a mindset of what students can do. No, we think about English as oh, I need to teach this, this and this before they do this. The same true with math, science, social science, our core classes. It's always about what students need to know before they do this. If we could start thinking about what they can do right off the bat and that becomes part of our core assumptions, it would just completely reshape education as we know it. I truly believe that. But that was something I learned from teaching PE teachers. I had to first understand and then appreciate, notably so their modalities, their priorities, and so once I was able to do that and demonstrate that, yes, I had the knowledge, and every semester, every year, I teach them. I have to reprove to them that, yes, I get them because they come with the assumption that I'm the enemy because I'm a reading person, and one of the other aspects of that that becomes really important is because I've already adjusted.
Corrine Wickens:Self-advocacy and identity is the development of attitudes, and by and large my PE teachers, their attitudes are positive towards sport and physical activity. That seems kind of self-explanatory and obvious Elementary teachers by and large, like picture books, judy B Jones, etc. Etc. So, again, we have these attitudes that come into play, with a teacher and a six-year-old, a teacher and a 16-year-old and not having ever any clue that their socialization, their personalities, their psychological makeup are positioning themselves against each other, positioning themselves against each other. That's why, then, that translation really becomes important. Is I have to understand you so that I can translate my world to yours and vice versa. And that might mean elementary teachers, making sure we're using more nonfiction, when elementary teachers typically love picture books and fictional texts, and incorporating some of that that I have been using with my PE teachers. That I think has strong application across the case is what I kind of frame as a read aloud, move aloud.
Corrine Wickens:With physical educators I have been using books, and I usually start with, like Dr Seuss, Hop on Pop, just because it's easy.
Corrine Wickens:And in physical education I will model how to use Dr Seuss to have them get working on sounds in this case.
Corrine Wickens:So your listeners might be aware of, phonological awareness is the ability to differentiate sound. We're not talking about letters, but actual sounds. So then, PE teachers can be helping you support that by then reading aloud books, writing books, but then at the same time they can use a few of those rhymes and associate them with specific physical movements, whether it's a stretch, whether it is a strength training, muscular building, and that would vary by age group, et cetera. So sometimes it's like lunges or squats or toe taps, you name it. And so I've done that a lot in the regular mainstream elementary classroom, using books with great sounds. And one book I like, this, the Small, small Pond, has a lot of swoosh in those what we would call diphthongs and digraph, but they make great because those sounds are hard for young people to be able to recognize but then be able to have motions that are connected to those sounds and those words. So now we're able to create different spaces where we can incorporate movement in regular classroom spaces and support phonologic awareness.
Corrine Wickens:And we can be doing the same thing in physical education spaces, spaces, and so using basically doing the same, different thing but two different spaces in supporting both literacy, early literacy skills and physical development, muscular endurance, muscular strength, cardio, whatever it might be, flexibility and one of the things that is also great about that and particularly for classrooms where physical education and recess have been removed and taken away is that helps with some of that energy, and I'd like to talk about that as the kids with the wiggles and I don't label otherwise because it could be, you know whether you think about ADHD, hyperactivity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. If you just talk about kids with the wiggles, labels become unimportant. But that gives them a chance to move and support important content, literacy tools and skills.
Lindsay Persohn:Corrine, you have shared some wonderfully rich examples with us. You have shared some wonderfully rich examples with us. One thing that I think I hear you saying in both of the kind of vignettes you've shared so far is that there's this element of time that it takes to develop these understandings and to make real change and to support kids to see themselves as the learners, their inner learner, to play on your inner runner.
Lindsay Persohn:And I think that that is sometimes what feels like the biggest challenge is finding the time and the focus and just sort of that energy to give each student, to identify. Where are they starting right? What's their beginning point? What do they already know? What are they bringing with them? And then how do we build from there in order to support them to become who they are already becoming or become who they want to be? And I think that that's one thing that really strikes me about this moment we're in in education when everything feels so paced and pushed that I think that sometimes it's challenging to find that time. But you remind me of just how much we're losing if we don't still work to find it right, to get to know each individual and where they're headed and you know how do we help them to develop that self-efficacy.
Corrine Wickens:I talk about time as the four-letter word in education.
Lindsay Persohn:Yes, is it ever? Is it ever Because it is so hard to find. It's so hard to find that time and I think the other thing I wanted to come back to that I really appreciate you sharing is this idea of a move aloud. I think I might use that. I have taught disciplinary literacy courses and I felt some of those same challenges you described, because our disciplinary literacy courses have a mix of folks from all different majors. So ensuring that everyone feels that they are seen and that their instructor has an idea of, you know kind of what makes their field tick in some ways that I think is one of the supreme challenges of that course. But I love this way that you have tied, you know, an ages-old literacy practice into something that is most influential in the world of PE. So that's really neat and in fact I think I might use that, maybe not even with PE majors, but with my elementary education majors, as they're working with kids who have wiggles talking about how they can turn their read aloud into a move aloud.
Lindsay Persohn:And it's not that the carpet time, so it's not an either or Right, and you've even got me thinking about ways to do that in very limited space. You know, sometimes it's a matter of hand, gestures, or, you know, sitting in your seat and just moving your feet a certain way. You know. Those kinds of things I think could really be beneficial in a lot of classroom spaces that I've spent time in, I can sure tell you that. So what a great idea. So, Corrine, what else do you want listeners to know about your work? You've given us such rich background about who you are and the kind of work you do. What else do you want us to know? My work.
Corrine Wickens:Interestingly enough, kind of spans several different fields curriculum, adolescent literacy, lgbt, gender, sexualities. I've kind of highlighted in this space and platform my work as the translator, so to speak the disciplinary literacy background that I come from and I think that I would connect that to. We already mentioned one part as far as the pacing. The other part that I would connect that to would be the questions around science of reading and the example around the read aloud, move aloud and the connections to a different way to do phonics I think is highly important and impactful. The other part that I would connect to that is then, as you're hearing me talk about bridging across the disciplinary divides is the same thing with the science of reading. There isn't a singular science, there's multiple sciences and so if we could at least begin to pluralize that, that much appreciated. Also understanding that when we're talking about science of reading, we're talking about decoding, and the reason it's important to me from a disciplinary perspective, an adolescent literacy perspective, is that most of phonics becomes a form of worksheet format and our young people who struggle with reading at early grades one of the things also from my PE teachers is many of them self-identify as struggling readers. So they are now adults, still struggling and still self-identifying as struggling readers, and that's not because of phonics or having whole language. Very few actually have ever had truthful whole language. Mostly have been balanced literacy and whatever format that might be.
Corrine Wickens:So, regardless of all of that, as adults they're still struggling and that struggle is hard and it is real and that is one of the things that, as a teacher of said students and a teacher of adults, acknowledging that struggle has been something that has been at the core of my work and became personal when I became a struggling runner and so that's where I started and I circling back around was that finding and acknowledging, honoring the struggle as normal.
Corrine Wickens:When when my students who are adults, realized their struggles as six-year-olds with decoding skills was not abnormal, because they always feel like it's just them and these are adults, sharing their trauma and pain and how dumb they felt. And I've had over the years now a lot of said students, men and women alike, multilingual learners, monolingual that doesn't matter. But if I go back to that, their struggle is normal because it never felt normal to them as children, as young people. When I normalize their context, their pain, that they weren't dumb, that they weren't stupid, this is regardless of whatever program. For 25% of our young people, learning to read is hard and it doesn't get any easier as they move into through the grades. And as a again former English Title I reading, whose ninth graders read four grade levels below, that gap just gets bigger and bigger, and so is it no wonder that they would give up Because we as adults don't want to keep doing the things that we aren't good at.
Lindsay Persohn:Right, right. Well, it reminds me of something else you said earlier this idea of you know, the social reinforcement that you know you're not good at, this Right right, delivered to them in multiple forms report card, grades, standardized tests.
Lindsay Persohn:You know peers, unfortunately even sometimes teachers you know are are reinforcing that you're just no good at this, rather than the idea that you know you don't get to running four marathons overnight, right? You know, I've never been told that I have an inner runner and I, so I can really never been told that I have an inner runner and so I can really relate to this idea. And I was also younger, and even now I'm a slow reader. I think people assume that whenever you're in literacy, you must just be the world's best reader. I'm a slow reader, I've gotten better, but it's taken time, right. It's taken tons of practice and it's also to tie back to your early point. It takes a lot of that self-efficacy building, Right. You have to feel as though you can do it and to really change the way you think about yourself. It takes so much more time as well as, again, multiple forces that sort of tell you you're getting better at this, you can do this stuff and or they're finding it somewhere else Again.
Corrine Wickens:So my PE teachers. They were getting the acceptance and confidence through sport. So at six years old, at the same time they're getting competence in sport. They are having inverse relationship with reading then again. So we have two strong, powerful attitudinal origins. One of the things that I've made them understand is the importance of practice. We don't provide a lot of really rich practice around reading in K-12 schools. In fact, we provide disincentives in all sorts of formats and that's a whole other episode. Lots of people that can connect to that as well. But if we don't practice, the expectations go up. And as the students get older, the expectations go up. Their practice, their real practice, actually keeps going down. So then, like a muscle, if it's not worked, the skill sets diminish.
Lindsay Persohn:I think that the metaphors that you use are really powerful, and it reminds me also of what you talked about earlier teaching as coaching, and I'm I will use one of your phrase I'm not a sports person.
Lindsay Persohn:I never have been. I'm one of those asthmatics who was challenged to participate in really any kind of sport, who was challenged to participate in really any kind of sport. I finally, in my adult life, found ways to keep my body moving and to stay healthy. But this idea of teaching as coaching even I can relate to this, because it is about identifying where somebody begins. It's about helping them see what comes next, and then what comes after that, and then what comes after that, and that encouragement all along the way to say are you doing something you enjoy? What is it that brings you back to this again and again. And I think if we could approach teaching in that sort of way, it's so personal and it's so incremental that I think it's such a solid approach to how we ultimately work towards self-efficacy and positive identity, reinforcing positive identities.
Lindsay Persohn:So is there anything else you want to share about your work, Corrine?
Corrine Wickens:I think about one of the classroom discussions I was having with my students around professional development days, teacher institute days. Where do teachers sit? With whom do they sit? And because we're creatures of habit, we sit by the people that we know first and foremost, and if we're in elementary we sit by grades. If we're in secondary we tend to sit by our disciplines and so we have our own attitudes towards our respective disciplines as well as other disciplines, and one of the things that I have learned that I want to provide cautionary thought about for teachers is how we can be dismissive of our colleagues and peers and the students. So they pay attention when, again, if they are a sports person and they hear teachers disparaging physical education and whether it's hearing or you're just a coach, and whether it's hearing or you're just a coach. We do a lot of disparaging across disciplines, across age groups, etc.
Corrine Wickens:And minimizing the important work in those fields, and part of that I want to highlight is because we have attitudes about where we feel good and we externalize that to others. So then we minimize what they do. You know English teachers? Well, I have all these papers to grade PE teachers. They just roll out a ball. But if we are dismissing our colleagues, dismissing their propensities, their modalities, we're also dismissing the young people that have affinities for that as well.
Corrine Wickens:All of us, as adults, we were children, we were young people as well. We create these attitudes, these interests, very young, and so an academic was a reader or non-reader as a young person. A PE teacher was a kid who played four sports seasons and had practices four to five hours a day, competed competitively since the age of eight, if not earlier. Think about education, if we thought about it as translation, where we recognized and honored not just other people's languages but their disciplines, because essentially, when we don't, we're also not acknowledging and honoring the young people that have that affinity as well. It's not just the discipline, it's our colleagues and the young people as well. So that's the kind of particular element of diversity that I wanted to highlight in this instance.
Lindsay Persohn:I love the reminder that adults were children once also. I think sometimes we forget that, that we've all come from somewhere. We've all come from assumptions about the world and assumptions about ourself, as well as all of the external influences. You know, we've got the internal and the external and they do shape us into who we become as adults. So I think recognizing that in people it does.
Lindsay Persohn:It takes my mind to a different starting point when it comes to whoever we are teaching. Right, because somewhere inside of all of us is still that kid who never thought they'd be a runner, or the kid who never thought they'd be a reader, or you know the kid who kind of tuned out of reading because all they wanted to do was be at PE. You know those kinds of things. We carry all that stuff with us and it reminds me again about you know the time to get to know where people are starting and sort of what makes them tick, because then I think it leads us to be better coaches and better translators of whatever we are trying to teach. Yes, I think it might also make us better humans.
Corrine Wickens:I certainly agree with that one as well.
Lindsay Persohn:Corrine, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?
Corrine Wickens:Be kind to yourself, and I don't mean it in the way that oftentimes in the last couple of last few years since COVID, is that there's been a lot of stuff around self-care. Yes, self-care is terribly important and sometimes it doesn't matter how much self-care we do, it's still not enough. So be kind to yourselves, be kind to your students, give yourself grace, give others grace, forgive yourself and forgive them. I know that's always true and I know it's especially true right now.
Lindsay Persohn:But I don't think there can be enough kindness in the world right now, so I really appreciate that message.
Corrine Wickens:It's not about being complacent. It's not about being professional. Right, we're going to make mistakes. Learn from them. We learn and do better and be kind.
Lindsay Persohn:Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that Well, karan. I've really enjoyed, yeah, yeah, I appreciate that Well, Corrine. I've really enjoyed talking with you today. I love your energy and I love the way that you make such deep connections across everything life, teaching, experiences, yeah, and I think that I mean that's what it's really all about, you know is gathering up all the pieces of our lives and putting it together. I mean that's that true transdisciplinary kind of mindset that I'm sure serves your students very well. Also, you know, always looking for those connections and always seeing how, how can we do better. So I really appreciate it.
Corrine Wickens:Thank you very much. It's been fun so.
Lindsay Persohn:I really appreciate it. Thank you very much, it's been fun. Thank you.
Lindsay Persohn:Dr. Corrine M Wickens's research interest examines issues of ongoing discourses around sexuality and schooling, gender and sexual characterizations in contemporary young adult literature and disciplinary-based literacies in secondary teacher education. She's published in such journals as Sex Roles, TESOL Quarterly, Children's Literature Association Quarterly, Children's Literature in Education, Voices from the Middle, Urban Review, Journal of Teaching Physical Education, Adult Education Quarterly, and International Journal of Qualitative Studies in Education. Dr Wickens is a former secondary English language arts and Title I reading teacher with nearly 30 years of experience in education. She's taught undergraduate and graduate coursework in content area or disciplinary literacies, gender and sexuality and curriculum. Dr. Wickens is a professor of literacy education and serves as the doctoral program coordinator in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at Northern Illinois University. In her spare time, Corrine enjoys historical mystery fiction, running and camping. You can connect with Dr, Wickens by email at cwickens@ niu. edu. That's c-w-i-c-k-e-n-s at n-i-u dot e-d-u.
Lindsay Persohn:For the good of all students, Classroom Caffeine aims to energize education, research and practice. If this show gives you things to think about, help us spread the word. Talk to your colleagues and educator friends about what you hear. You can support the show by subscribing, liking and reviewing this podcast through your podcast provider. Liking and reviewing this podcast through your podcast provider. Visit classroomcaffeine. com, where you can subscribe to receive our short monthly newsletter, the Espresso Shot. On our website, you can also learn more about each guest, find transcripts for our episodes, explore topics using our drop-down menu of tags, request an episode topic or potential guest, support our research through our listener survey or learn more about the research we're doing on our publications page. Connect with us on social media through Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. We would love to hear from you. Special thanks to the Classroom Caffeine team-- Leah Berger, Abaya Valuru, Stephanie Branson, and Csaba Osvath. As always, I raise my mug to you, teachers. Thanks for joining me.