Classroom Caffeine

A Conversation with Seth A. Parsons

• Lindsay Persohn • Season 5 • Episode 12

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Dr. Seth Parsons talks to us about the power of the teacher, the value of good curriculum, and motivation and engagement in learning. Seth is known for his work in the areas of elementary literacy instruction, student engagement and motivation, adaptive teaching, and metacognitive strategy development. His research has been published in many of the field’s top journals, including the Journal of Literacy Research, Review of Educational Research, Educational Researcher, Reading Research Quarterly, Elementary School Journal, The Reading Teacher, and Literacy Research and Instruction. In addition to journal articles, he has co-authored and edited several practitioner-facing books, including Principles of Effective Literacy Instruction, Grades K–5, and Accelerating Learning Recovery for All Students and Becoming a Metacognitive Teacher. He has served as President of Association of Literacy Educators and Researchers (ALER) and currently serves as Executive Editor of The Journal of Educational Research, and Co-Editor of the Literacy Research Association’s Journal of Literacy Research, and Associate Editor of Reading and Writing Quarterly. Dr. Seth A. Parsons is a Professor of Literacy in the Sturtevant Center for Literacy at George Mason University. 

Email: sparson5@gmu.edu

Instagram @sethaparsons

Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=PPa2WcoAAAAJ&hl=en

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/prof-seth-parsons/

Books: 

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Lindsay Persohn:

Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom Caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences.

Lindsay Persohn:

In this episode, Dr. Seth Parsons talks to us about the power of the teacher, the value of good curriculum, and motivation and engagement in learning. Seth is known for his work in the areas of elementary literacy instruction, student engagement and motivation, adaptive teaching and metacognitive strategy development. His research has been published in many of the field's top journals, including the Journal of Literacy Research, Review of Educational Research, Educational Researcher, Reading Research Quarterly, Elementary School Journal, The Reading Teacher, and Literacy Research and Instruction. In addition to journal articles, he has co-authored and edited several practitioner-facing books, including Principles of Effective Literacy Instruction Grades K-5, and Accelerating Learning Recovery for All Students, both co-authored with past Classroom Caffeine guest Margaret Vaughn, and Becoming a Metacognitive Teacher. He has served as the president of the Association of Literacy Educators and Researchers, known as ALER, and currently serves as executive editor of the Journal of Educational Research and co-editor of the Literacy Research Association's Journal of Literacy Research and Associate Editor of Reading and Writing Quarterly. Dr Seth A. Parsons is a professor of literacy in the Sturtevant Center for Literacy at George Mason University. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode.

Lindsay Persohn:

So pour a cup of your favorite drink and join me. Your host, Lindsay Persohn for Classroom Caffeine: research to energize your teaching practice.

Lindsay Persohn:

Seth, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.

Seth Parsons:

Well, thank you for having me.

Lindsay Persohn:

So, from your own experiences in education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?

Seth Parsons:

Sure so one sort of commonality that I can trace throughout my time in education is the power of the teacher and this came as an aha moment for me in the classroom when I was a teacher, my first year teaching.

Seth Parsons:

I remember that moment where it really hit me that I'm in control of this world here and if I'm having a bad day or I'm stressed, that negatively impacts my teaching, and if I'm joyful and I'm having a great day and I'm enthusiastic, that positively influences the classroom and student learning and their experiences. And that was a really powerful reminder to me and it sort of increased the responsibility that I had as a teacher and it sort of increased the responsibility that I had as a teacher. I never really forgot that moment very early in my first year teaching where I thought, oh geez, like I'm in complete charge of this entire culture and I need to be super aware of what I'm bringing with me to the classroom and how I'm operating within this space, because I'm the one that's setting this stage and the students are feeding off of me and my mood and my being and the totality of what it means to be with those kids all day doctor work and I began doing extensive reading on effective reading instruction, exemplary reading teachers, and over and over again it kept coming down to the teacher as being one of the most powerful factors in the class. So that has continued throughout my career. And I remember reading Choice Words by Peter Johnston and then his follow-up book Opening Minds. That really brought it to life in a neat way that showed the power of the teacher in the classroom and how their words create the classroom world, and I thought that that was just an awesome text that really palpably illustrated this.

Seth Parsons:

And then, even further now I'm a parent and an uncle and my daughter's just finishing up elementary school. She's heading into middle school next year and when I look across her elementary years you know there were some dynamite years she had and there were some duds, like she had had some busts and what's the critical factor that determined that year? It was the teacher. Like when she had an amazing dynamic teacher, she had an amazing year and the learning was through the roof. And when there was a teacher that like just didn't get her or wasn't in it all the way, you know the kids, the kids could feed off of that and it was just sort of a blah year and her learning they not suffered tremendously, but it was less of a year and they kept going back to the teacher. So that's always been this central theme that has run through my teaching, my research and even my life as a dad. So that was something sort of old. That was a moment and experience.

Seth Parsons:

Another one, more recently, is that I've been rethinking or reconsidering curriculum. So this power of the teacher that I've always sort of privileged in my thinking sort of juxtaposed the teacher with the program, because I was teaching No Child Left Behind and the rollout of Reading First. And then that's when I entered my doctoral program shortly after that in about 2005. So we're still in that No Child Left Behind era, where we were getting more and more scripted instruction and more push towards fidelity to the program. So in those formative years of my work in doctoral studies it was repeatedly my mantra was the teacher, not the program, the teacher not the program.

Seth Parsons:

But more recently I've engaged with a colleague of mine who's in policy and he comes from a much different lens, whereas I'm a classroom guy and always have been, that's where I do all my research. That's where I always think with my research and with my, when I'm reading empirical studies and stuff is. My mind is always like what is the implications of this for teachers in the classroom? Well, he's a policy leader leader who's looking at like federal policies, influence across the nation and state policy across an entire state, and we've had some really good conversations where I would pick his brain about the science of reading policy because I was confused by the motives behind a lot of the legislation that was taking place. So we had great conversations and he really turned me around regarding curricula. So instead of maintaining this sort of either-or, it's not the teacher versus the curriculum, I've really shifted my thinking to see the power of a strong curricula and recognizing that it's a both-and not an either-or. So that's a pretty big shift in my thinking. That's relatively new. That's sort of come out of a collegiality, but also the shifting policy landscape of reading research.

Lindsay Persohn:

Seth everything you say just it seems so important to me. You know, I think that teachers do make such a huge difference, and I think you're right. It's an awesome responsibility, but it's also a really great privilege to be able to sort of create your own little microcosm and to support individual learners within your classroom space, learners within your classroom space. What I was thinking about as you were talking about, you know, No Child Left Behind and scripted curricula.

Lindsay Persohn:

You know, I was a classroom teacher through those shifts as well, and it does seem as though, you know you say it is a both and and I agree it is a both, and I think in a lot of spaces it's not always set up that way.

Lindsay Persohn:

It's set up for teachers to have to kind of compete with the curriculum. Right, they're told you must read these lines, and if you are a trained educator and a professional and you think, well, this doesn't make any sense or well, this is awfully boring, you know finding that balance so that you maintain that power of the teacher, as you called it, while also you know doing what's expected of you. But I think that it is an awesome responsibility and I think that that can be intimidating, but it can also be a your knowledge to adapt and hopefully you're in a space where you're allowed to do that, where you can adapt the curriculum so that it does work for you as the teacher and instructional leader in the room, but also for your students, to sort of meet them where they are and to encourage the. You know the gifts that they already come to the classroom spaces with.

Seth Parsons:

Yes, 100%, and that's a well. First of all, one thing that I was thinking as you were talking is that being in an amazing teacher's classroom never ceases to impress and amaze me, and you can almost feel it when you walk into the classroom. It doesn't take long until you realize, oh, this space is special and there's some amazing learning taking place and it's a place where everyone's learning. So I just continually take my hat off to amazing teachers who are doing it, often in spite of everything that falls on teachers overflowing plates these days. And just a big shout out to all the awesome teachers out there, because you're making a world of difference, more than I think they even know. And I see that also as a privilege to be able to go in and out of a lot of classrooms in my teacher education role and working with pre-service and in-service teachers. It solidified this stance also of there's not one way to be an exceptional teacher.

Seth Parsons:

I've seen exceptional teachers who are vastly different in their personalities, how they teach, how they interact with kids, and they're both just outstanding and doing amazing things for the kids. But it just reiterates that you can't can, that you can't put it in a package and sell it. But, as I've just described, we can't say well, that means we don't need curricula. We absolutely need strong curricula, and that's why an amazing teacher with a good resource can do amazing things, and a brand new teacher, who may not have had the preparation that they wanted or desired, still has the resource to be able to provide quality instruction to the students they're serving. So it's this combination of teacher autonomy along with the resources of a strong curriculum.

Lindsay Persohn:

Well, I think that that's one reason why so many teachers have felt so challenged by, you know, the policies that No Child Left Behind and other legislation of that type has sort of left us with. You know, we're talking here about how highly individualized it is to be an exceptional teacher, and that stands in direct contrast to the idea of standardizing education. It just doesn't quite work. I mean, we're in the human business, you know, people aren't widgets, and I think that that's important for us to remind ourselves of also, as we, you know, maybe feel a little bit caught in the spokes of some policy.

Seth Parsons:

Yeah, I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Lindsay Persohn:

So, Seth, what would you like listeners to know about your work?

Seth Parsons:

Well, we've segued very nicely into what I was hoping to highlight, but you know two themes of my scholarship. The research I've been doing is that A) teachers matter, which shouldn't surprise you this far into the podcast, but also that motivation matters matters. And first, with teachers matter, because we know the power of the teacher. I've spent most of my career trying to understand those instructional moves that teachers make, so we know that we can't can them and put them into a program and have teachers read the script to fidelity. That that's not the recipe for one of those amazing classrooms you walk into. The recipe for one of those amazing classrooms you walk into Because, as you've mentioned, the kids that we're serving. They're different in a thousand different important ways and classrooms are already complex, unpredictable. I mean you've got 30 human beings, one adult and a bunch of children or youth in one space and we're trying to move towards. You know knowledge and skills and strategies that these young people need and they're going to come with these different needs, unexpected questions, things that you think are going to click very easily, don't, and things that you think they're going to struggle with. They get way faster than you ever thought and the teacher is in this constant dynamic of reading the student's needs and then providing just right instruction. So my colleagues and I, starting way back with my dissertation under the guidance of Jerry Duffy at UNC Greensboro, have been trying to understand teachers' instructional adaptations and I think that through the decades that I've been doing this work with others like Margaret Vaughn and Julie Ankrum and Amy Morwood, roy Scales this research team has come to sort of codify how and why teachers adapt. We have, through observing in hundreds of classrooms across the elementary levels, we have a pretty strong picture of what it is teachers do when they adapt their instruction and we're moving towards trying to figure out, as teacher educators, can this be taught and how can it be taught? Because some teachers are amazing, flexible, responsive educators who are really in tune with their class and what's taking place.

Seth Parsons:

And as a teacher educator, I'm thinking how can I take these college students who want to become teachers, these future teachers, to develop that skill set? So that's work. That's really interesting. That's front and center is we've spent a long time developing tools to be able to capture and catalog what adaptive teaching looks like, and now our focus is really shifting towards this teacher education question of what can we do in professional development and what can we do in pre-service teacher education that can my classroom, because there were some kids when I was teaching that nothing in my toolbox or my toolkit could help me reach these students, and I know that they're not unreachable, but they would seemingly do anything other than the work that I was asking them to do.

Seth Parsons:

So I have been puzzling over motivating unmotivated students and what can we do in classrooms as teachers, and also thinking about the instruction, the activities we're providing. What can we do in classrooms as teachers, and also thinking about the instruction, the activities we're providing. What can we do to motivate and engage students? And that field has some really interesting findings over the years where we have a pretty good sense of the aspects of instruction that are motivating. And I feel like in the current environment, particularly with the science of reading, our own efforts. So in my mind, motivation has to be a piece of the puzzle as we continue to think about study and enact policy trying to enhance students' literacy learning.

Seth Parsons:

I'm heartened by talk of how to best meet diverse students' needs. We're paying attention to Tier 1 and Tier 2 instruction more than we ever have, which I see as a good, positive byproduct of this movement. But one thing I don't understand is why aren't we talking about motivational principles when we're talking about Tier 2 instruction? Why aren't we talking about motivational principles when we're talking about tier two instruction? Why aren't we talking about motivational principles when we're choosing curricula that are going to be required to be used the entire literacy block? So I just think there's a real opportunity, especially given the strong research base that motivation has. This isn't an idea. This is something that's been studied for hundreds of years and we know is a really powerful aspect of teaching and learning.

Lindsay Persohn:

So I think we know that motivation and engagement. It doesn't exactly look like a checklist of sorts just like you know factors of what good adaptive teaching looks like. Also isn't exactly a checklist you talk about in your research when it comes to what really great adaptive, exciting teaching might look like, or what kinds of characteristics teachers might adopt or adapt if they're looking to be more engaging or to shape that microcosm of their classroom in a more exciting kind of way, and then maybe also a few of those factors for motivating and engaging students. Can you share a little bit more about that with us?

Seth Parsons:

Sure, sure thing. So well, the two things you're asking for are also related, which isn't surprising because you know classrooms are dynamic, highly involved places, optimal instruction for students. We're seeing a lot of attention towards autonomy-supportive classrooms and autonomy-supportive environments, and this goes to Ryan and DC's work on self-determination theory, where student involvement and student motivation is on a continuum from autonomous to controlled, and more autonomous situations are conducive to more engagement, more motivation. People feel more motivated when they feel in control of their own destiny and they have space to make decisions about how things are going to run. And that parallels to teachers and students. And that parallels to teachers and students. You know teachers, as professionals, deserve that autonomy space to use the curriculum and resources at their disposal to best meet the students in their classroom, whom they know way better than any curriculum developer or policymaker ever could. But on the flip side, students also learn best and operate optimally in spaces where they have some autonomous freedom. So, if we're thinking about reading, in particular, or writing I've been studying writing more often when students have these choices and they feel like their comments in the classroom are valued, heard and truly listened to, they're much more motivated and engaged. And similarly, to promote motivation.

Seth Parsons:

I encourage teachers to think about what are we asking kids to do? So, looking at the academic tasks or the, the activities that we're asking students to engage in, the activities that we're asking students to engage in and I often discuss this in terms of constructivism, you know, and in education 101, we learn about Piaget and Vygotsky and that learning is optimized through genuine activity. You know, dewey talked about it as the education of experience and if we want to truly think about what are we asking students to do? Because what students do is what they're going to learn. So the tasks and the activities we assign are really powerful and oftentimes I feel like it's almost like a cavalier decision of what am I going to ask students to do while I'm doing this. But it's much more weighty than that.

Seth Parsons:

So if we think about the assignments we're giving students and the degree to which they have choice, the degree to which it's appropriately challenging, is there some level of authenticity? We know collaboration is also motivating and also supportive of learning through social learning theories. So those are sort of what I think of as principles that we can apply to almost any content or any activity. To what degree do students get to collaborate? To what degree do they get to have any sort of choice? To what degree is this relevant to their real lives outside of school? I think those are good sort of lenses that teachers can apply when thinking about what am I asking these youth and children to do?

Lindsay Persohn:

We so closely focus on what's a learning outcome and it is kind of a forest for the trees sort of situation, right, we're so hyper focused on what is our endpoint that I think sometimes we forget about how we actually get there and what is it in fact that we are asking our students to do in order to learn that content. Learn that content, as you pointed out, many theorists have told us that we don't just sort of open things up and pour the knowledge in. There's action and reaction and there's give and take in that learning process and it does take presence from a teacher. It takes trust, you know, in the whole classroom environment and also, I think, the trust that teachers may or may not feel from policymakers, from administrators. All of that plays such a major role in how that's translated to the student experience.

Lindsay Persohn:

So what you're giving me, or what you're reminding me, Seth, is just this really highly human nature of teaching that, like you said, it can't be canned, it can't be bought. It is something that's developed through skill and experience and care and presence. You know all of those really foundational principles that I think help us to feel safe and valued in communities at large. You know, it's the same. It's the same stuff in classrooms. It's the same stuff in schools.

Seth Parsons:

Yeah, absolutely, and that was one thing that came to mind when you were you were asking the last question, and it slipped my brain but you brought me back to it is that teacher knowledge is so important. And it's not just knowledge of content and pedagogy, which are vitally important, I don't want to downplay that, but it's also knowing the kids, knowing the children you're working with. And what we found in those adaptive teaching studies is that teachers who were most responsive and adapted in thoughtful ways knew their children deeply. They knew their interests, they knew what they did outside of school, they knew what they cared about and that enabled them to make instructional moves that were just right for that child. Because they know that they are passionate about horseback riding or they are passionate about soccer and you know man city or whatever team is their favorite.

Seth Parsons:

If they know that, that is another tool that those teachers can leverage to just reach those kids, to bring it in. Because a lot of instruction, especially culturally responsive and culturally sustaining instruction, is all about knowing building that bridge between students' lives outside of school and the school life that we're bringing them into. And if there is no bridge, you're going to lose students real fast because it becomes something else. That isn't for me and I'm an outsider just doing time and again. This falls within the teacher's purview unless we're tying their hands with policy and legislation.

Lindsay Persohn:

And you know, I think the other thing is that these details aren't the things that usually make it into lesson plans. Even if a teacher is writing their own lesson plans, you probably aren't writing. Be sure to mention to so-and-so the connection to their hobby, but it's stuff that happens on the fly and I think it is that presence. It's, like you said, knowing kids, it's knowing what they like and what they care about, and then teachers are in a much better position, they're much better able to make those connections, say, oh, remember that game you were talking about.

Lindsay Persohn:

This is related in this way, the whole idea of the power of the teacher, you know, in just their role and just the critical nature of the ways they interact with their students and really in each of those school communities.

Lindsay Persohn:

You know, I think you also feel a lot of this stuff the minute you set foot on a school campus. If it is a supportive environment, if teachers are trusted to do their jobs and do them well. You know that's something I talk about with my students that whenever they go for an interview for their first teaching job, it's not just them being interviewed, they are in fact also kind of interviewing the school and the administration to understand where their thinking is. And you know how much of that power is allotted to teachers versus how much is you know, as you, how much of that power is allotted to teachers versus how much is, you know, as you said, kind of taken away from them? Are they shielded from policies that may have really rough implications for kids? You know, are they allowed to just sort of do the magical work of teaching?

Seth Parsons:

Yes, yeah, and just like a teacher sets the tone for the classroom, and just like a teacher sets the tone for the classroom, I've learned and I think this is well known is that the principal sets the tone for a school. So I tell the pre-service teachers I work with the same thing you do and I even stress that they currently, at least in our environment, there's a teacher shortage. So they sort of hold the cards, like if you don't have a good feeling, you can't see yourself getting excited at 6 am every morning to come to this place. Go to the next school because there's going to be more offers. The teachers have the ability, especially if they're well-prepared, knowledgeable and ready to go, to find a good fit that works well for their goals and dreams and what they want to do for the children they're going to teach.

Lindsay Persohn:

Yeah, I think it is a buyer's market, so to speak, when looking for a teaching job in a lot of spaces, particularly in the US right now. I know it's the same thing in Florida, where I am Many of my graduates of our program they have their choice of spaces and places where they might want to work. So, yeah, the ball is in their court in a lot of ways.

Seth Parsons:

Well, another note about knowledge of students. As we were talking, I remembered this activity, that a dynamite teacher, Sarah Burrowbridge. I worked closely with her when she was at one of the partner sites where we had a school, university, pds relationship. So I worked at this school for seven years and we had a great relationship and she was this one of those teachers. That just amazes me. You, just like man, you are knocking out of the park for these students.

Seth Parsons:

And one thing she did was she wrote Friday letters and every Friday the students wrote her a letter telling them about their week, what's going on in their lives.

Seth Parsons:

It's just a letter to Miss Burrowbridge and then over the weekend she would read them and she would write them a letter back. And she did that every single week and talk about knowing your kids and what's going on in their lives, and then that was the starting place for the instruction and of course, she was teaching state standards, but she could masterfully do it in a way that was perfectly appropriate for those students that she was serving and I just remember again being in awe of what a brilliant thing to do. Now, not for someone who likes their weekends, probably, but I don't know that. I would recommend it as a. You know life, work balance is important, but it was a decision she made that she did and it just. I could see it as a you know, a collaborator that was in there week in and week out. I could see the dividends. That knowledge that she gained from those letters infiltrated the classroom and enhanced everything she did.

Lindsay Persohn:

Well, and how special would it feel to get to be one of those students who has. You know, that is such a huge component of motivation is to feel as though you are valued and that you have a voice within the space and that someone really cares about you. They genuinely care about who you are and what you want out of your life. And you know that's one of those things that, as you said it just it pays such dividends, and I think there are so many ways to do that. If you don't want to write 20 letters over the weekend, there are other ways to accomplish that.

Lindsay Persohn:

I was actually thinking of a dear friend of mine who teaches kindergarten and she has a gift box. It's got a bow on it and of course, kids want to know what's in the box. What's in the box, what's in the box, and it's something she kind of keeps up the charade for a very long time until finally. You know she'll call them up one by one at some point throughout the year and she tells them it's a picture of her favorite student, and when they take the lid off, there's a mirror at the bottom, and so they all know, you know, just how much she cares about them, and this is someone who connects with her students. I've been to community events with her and I see her, you know, 20 years down the road she's got someone who is running up to her, you know, to give her a great big hug and to just tell her how much she's impacted their life. So, yeah, I think there's so many ways to do that.

Seth Parsons:

Absolutely, and you gave me chills with that story. That's one that's like oh man, like she's doing right by the kids and isn't that so many teachers out there doing that, and I don't think the teachers out there doing it here, and enough that they're changing lives like they're changing lives.

Lindsay Persohn:

And it means so much. You know, it doesn't have to be a letter a weekend to really have a strong impact on, you know, on a child's efficacy in themselves as a learner. So it's just, yeah, good stuff and lots of great things happening in so many spaces. So, Seth, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

Seth Parsons:

Well, I hope that it's a message I've already relayed, but I just hope teachers out there know that there are fellow educators out there that are advocating for better policies and better working conditions for teachers, because it is so difficult and it was difficult when I did it back in the no Child Left Behind era and I feel like it's 100 times more difficult now. So I want teachers to know that there are people that see them and that so value them and are working behind the scenes to try to give them the skills, knowledge, freedom, autonomy, agency and space to do the amazing work that they can do. And we know that teaching is the learning profession. So no one's ever made it. You know we're not like check. I've made it to the top of the teaching because you get 25 new kids next year and they're all different and they all have different needs and you have to try it all over again and find out that recipe that's going to work for these students, and the best teachers do it year in and year out.

Seth Parsons:

So in this current context we're in, there is increasing focus on teacher professional development. As I look at state legislation, a lot of it has required professional learning experiences, trainings, extra classes and while we may disagree about the best manner in which we do that, I think teacher knowledge, as I've sort of alluded to previously, is a central part of being an effective teacher. So I like the focus on increasing teacher knowledge and that's what I do day in and day out is. I'm always just trying to get smarter about this work we're doing and you know we have the mantra the kids are worth it. You like they're worth getting frustrated with policies or whatever we're frustrated with and the hard work that goes into doing this. The kids are worth it. But the caveat I want to put out there is, while I fully support and recognize the need of professional development, I encourage teachers to take a critical eye development. I encourage teachers to take a critical eye because I think a lot of the learning opportunities or the learning requirements that are taking place now, the folks behind it often have an agenda and too often that agenda is financially motivated rather than child motivated. And those of us who are committed to this work know that it's always about the children, it's always about the youth, it's about trying to get those kids to enhance their learning so they can open up doors and join a democracy that is beneficial for all. So helping teachers and encouraging teachers to be a critical consumer is something that I'm really promoting.

Seth Parsons:

Now to see the citation that wants to read the study, the empirical study being referenced, because far too often books, textbooks, trade books, they're being slapped with this aligned with the science of reading or scientifically based research, but when we really dig into the science that they're relying on, it may be another book or not necessarily an empirical study, or the empirical study doesn't really say what they say it says in the citation. So it's a tough space for educators because they're operating at 150 percent, and here I am saying operating at 150%, and here I am saying, oh, go, check the reference. But I think we have to in this time because, like I said, a lot of opportunities that emerge, so to speak, are not always from trustworthy sources. So I always lead with that caveat as I promote the power of teacher knowledge and that's an important piece of this agreement.

Seth Parsons:

You know, if we're going to have this agreement, that teachers should have the professional autonomy and space to do what is best for their students you know David Pearson called it professional prerogative the teachers, you should earn this prerogative by staying up to date with current research, by being a lifelong learner, by getting to know your students really really well, by knowing your standards really really well, knowing the curricula really really well, and then using all that knowledge that you're gaining. That's the part of the bargain that the teachers have to keep up. So it is a two-sided coin that I'm advocating policymakers, administrators, legislators that tying teachers' hands and requiring fidelity to a script is not the path forward is not the path forward. At the same time, I'm turning to the educators I work with and say be your best and, do you know, never stop learning so you can earn that professional freedom to do what's best for students.

Lindsay Persohn:

It is a two-sided coin, for sure, and I think you know, as you were describing, that, I think that as we, as educators, learn more and more A) we learn that there is still so much more to learn.

Lindsay Persohn:

But I think also, you develop this gauge for when something doesn't seem quite right or when you feel like I think part of the story is missing here, and I think that I would also maybe add to that that educators should trust their instincts, you know, because they do know their kids. And when you do know your content as well and you see that you're being, you know, given maybe a prepackaged curriculum that doesn't quite add up, then, yeah, it's time to do some digging. It's time to start asking some really critical questions to find out well, how did we in fact end up with this, with this beautiful cellophane wrapped package delivered to our door? Where did this come from and who decided on this? And, you know, is there public input? And who developed it? What's their, what's their motive? So I think that those questions are just really important and I think they can in fact help us to move forward in positive and productive ways.

Seth Parsons:

And I would even follow that up by turning towards the mirror and saying that you know we have a side of the bargain too, as educational researchers and teacher educators, that we need to stay up to date.

Seth Parsons:

But also, if it's a highly statistical study that's beyond your understanding, reach out to your local education professor or your distant education professor. I do not mind getting emails from teachers saying, hey, I'm a little suspect of this. Does this study? You know, give me input on that. You know, translate this for me Like that's what we do. So I feel a responsibility, just like I'm encouraging teachers to have this responsibility, to stay up to date. I know that we educational researchers, who are committed to the teachers we serve, feel that same responsibility to stay knowledgeable, stay up to date and shift your thinking when your thinking needs to shift and advocate where you can advocate. So I just feel like we're all in this together again, while keeping the main thing, the main thing, which is to help the youth and the kids we work with to get smarter and to improve their educational opportunities, to enhance their opportunities in life.

Lindsay Persohn:

Fantastic, and you're absolutely right. I appreciate that kind of open invitation. You know, if you read something written by a researcher or an author and it doesn't quite add up, then, yeah, you can reach out to that person directly and say you know, can you help me understand this, or can you give me a little bit more context? Or you know, can you help me understand this, or can you give me a little bit more context, or you know what is meant by this? I think that that open invitation to follow up it's a wonderful thing and I think it can help to enrich the education community in so many ways when we are connected like that. Yeah, so, seth, I thank you so much for your time today and I really thank you for your contributions to the world of education and your contributions to this podcast lineup. So, thank you so much.

Seth Parsons:

Sure thing. Thank you for inviting me, Lindsay. It's been fun.

Lindsay Persohn:

Dr. Seth A. Parsons is widely recognized for his work in elementary literacy instruction, student engagement and motivation, adaptive teaching and metacognitive strategy development. His scholarship focuses on how teachers can respond flexibly to students' needs, promote deep comprehension and foster inclusive, culturally sustaining literacy practices in K-5 classrooms. His research has been published in many of the field's top journals, including the Journal of Literacy Research, Review of Educational Research, Educational Researcher, Reading Research Quarterly, Elementary School Journal, The Reading Teacher, and Literacy Research and Instruction, including Principles of Effective Literacy Instruction, grades K-5, and Accelerating Learning Recovery for All Students, both co-authored with past Classroom Caffeine guest, Margaret Vaughn, and Becoming a Metacognitive Teacher. Seth's contributions have been recognized through multiple awards and honors, including the Jerry Johns Promising Researcher Award from the Association of Literacy Educators and Researchers, or ALER. Jerry Johns, the namesake for that award, is also a past Classroom Caffeine guest, the Teacher of Distinction Award at George Mason University, and selected as an Emerging Scholar by Phi Delta Kappa. Seth has also served in key leadership roles, including president of the Association of Literacy Educators and Researchers, executive editor of the Journal of Education Research, and co-editor of the Literacy Research Association's Journal of Literacy Research, as well as associate editor of Reading and Writing Quarterly, roles which help shape the future of literacy, scholarship, and practice. Dr. Seth A. Parsons currently serves as a Professor of Literacy in the Sturtevant Center for Literacy at George Mason University, where he teaches mentors, doctoral students and continues his nationally recognized research on effective literacy instruction and teacher development. You can connect with Seth on Instagram @ SethAParsons. That's at S-E-T-H-A-P-A-R-S-O-N-S.

Lindsay Persohn:

For the good of all students, Classroom Caffeine aims to energize education research and practice. If this show gives you things to think about, help us spread the word. Talk to your colleagues and educator friends about what you hear. You can support the show by subscribing, liking, and reviewing this podcast through your podcast provider. Visit classroomcaffeine. com, where you can subscribe to receive our short monthly newsletter, The Espresso Shot. On our website, you can also learn more about each guest, find transcripts for our episodes, explore topics using our drop-down menu of tags, request an episode, topic or potential guest, support our research through our listener survey, or learn more about the research we're doing on our publications page. Connect with us on social media on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. We would love to hear from you. Special thanks to the Classroom Caffeine team, Leah Berger, Abaya Valuru, Stephanie Branson and Csaba Osvath. As always, I raise my mug to you, teachers. Thanks for joining me.