A Conversation with Rachel Hatten: Passing the Mic

A big change is happening at Classroom Caffeine, and we wanted you to hear it directly: the podcast is continuing in partnership with the University of South Florida College of Education, with Dr. Rachel Hatten stepping in as the new host and executive producer. We talk with Rachel about the bridge we’re always trying to build, getting education research into the hands of teachers in ways that actually fit the realities of classrooms, schools, and district systems. 

Rachel brings a scholar-practitioner lens shaped by years as a high school English teacher, district literacy leader, and now co-director of the David C. Anchin Center for the Advancement of Teaching. Our conversation stays grounded in equity and access: detracking, culturally responsive teaching, critical literacy, and the everyday messages schools send about who belongs. Rachel shares how becoming a parent intensified her sense of responsibility and why she calls teaching “hard holy work” while rejecting the savior and martyr tropes that burn educators out. 

We also dig into her research on the long-term impact of a detracked, social justice-focused English course and what surprised her most: students remembered the books and the conversations, not the behind-the-scenes battles. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review so more educators can find research that strengthens practice.

To cite this episode:

Persohn, L. (Host). (2026, Apr. 14). A Conversation with Rachel Hatten: Passing the Mic. (Season 6, No. 9) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/7790-285D-0B1B-B82D-83B4-9

Connect with Rachel and The Anchin Center at rachelhatten@usf.edu or @USFAnchin on Facebook, Instagram, or X.

Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Transcript

Why This Show Exists

Lindsay Persohn 0:10

Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom Caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. Today's episode is a special one. After hosting this podcast since 2020 and learning alongside so many incredible guests and listeners, I'm preparing for a professional transition, and with that, a transition for the show as well. Since its launch, Classroom Caffeine has grown into a global community with more than 40,000 downloads across 129 countries. That reach is entirely because of the generosity of our guests and the engagement of listeners like you. I'm really pleased to share that the podcast will continue its work in partnership with the University of South Florida College of Education, and that Dr. Rachel Hatten, the co-director of USF's David C. Anchin Center for the Advancement of Teaching, will be stepping in as the new host and executive producer. Rachel brings a deep commitment to connecting research and practice, and I'm excited for you to get to know her today as we talk about the future of the show and Rachel's work. In this episode, Dr. Rachel Hatten talks to us about teaching, learning, and the long-range impacts of education on the betterment of our lives. Rachel is known for her work bridging research and practice, ensuring that educators have access to meaningful, high-quality learning experiences that directly impact teaching and student outcomes. Across her career, Rachel has remained focused on issues of equity and access in education, leading initiatives that support detracking, culturally responsive teaching, and teacher-led inquiry into classroom practice. She is particularly interested in how educators can create learning environments that invite students to think critically about the world, engage with diverse perspectives, and develop a deeper understanding of themselves and others. Dr. Rachel Hatten is co-director of the David C. Anchin Center for the Advancement of Teaching at the University of South Florida College of Education, where she leads the design and implementation of research-informed professional learning for practicing teachers and school and district leaders across K-12 settings. You can connect with Rachel and the Anchin Center through your favorite social media platform at USF Anchin. That's at US F A N C H I N, or by email rachelhatten@ usf.edu. That's R A C H E L H A T T E N at USF.edu. So pour a cup of your favorite drink and join me, your host, Lindsay Persohn for Classroom Caffeine. Research to energize your teaching practice. Rachel, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.

Rachel Hatten 3:31

Thank you, Lindsay. I'm so excited to be here.

Lindsay Persohn 3:34

I'm really excited to have you here today. So, from your own experiences and education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?

From High School Teacher To District Leader

Rachel Hatten 3:45

Yes, and anyone who knows me will laugh at one or two moments that inform my teaching because they'll think, oh no, you've given this lady a microphone. So, yeah, thank you for the question and thanks again for having me. It's really exciting to be part of this great podcast. I have imposter syndrome for sure, just scrolling through the list of former guests. So it's wonderful to be here. I'm currently the co-director of the David C. Anchin Center for the Advancement of Teaching at USF. That's a research and practice center that lives inside the College of Education, but our work is all externally facing. So our major work is around providing professional learning for practicing teachers and leaders in the field. And so my own work has sort of always lived in that space too, of really connecting theory to the hard, holy work of practitioners in the field. And so that's the place that the Anchin Center fits. And I think that's where this podcast fits too, in terms of really trying to connect good work of faculty and good work of researchers to the excellent work that teachers are doing out in the field with students every day. So I'm here now at the Ancient Center, but I was a high school English teacher for, I always say for 150 years in Minnesota. And if you couldn't hear Minnesota in my voice before now, I always say you'll hear it now that I've outed myself. So shout out to our Minnesota listeners if there are any out there. But I taught high school English there for about 13 years, which, you know, I still think of as like the best time in my career. That's still the part of myself I recognize the most is the teacher part of me. When people ask me what I do for a living, I still just say, I'm a teacher, which feels a lot easier than describing, you know, what the Anchin Center does, but is also, I think, a better descriptor of like who I am. I don't think, I don't think we do teaching. I think we are teachers. So I still say that and I still claim that part of my identity. And we moved to Tampa. My husband's a faculty member here in the College of Ed. And so we moved here in 2015 when he took a professorship here. And I worked in Pasco County schools as a literacy district administrator for about five years and learned a ton in that role, was really important for me in terms of expanding my perspective. Like I'd always been a classroom teacher, really invested and engaged in my work with my students, but in Pasco County, really got to see like systems at play and big work happening there, working with teachers across lots of different schools and lots of different settings. And then I came to USF in March of 2020, which was really a heck of a time to transition jobs and leave my good friends in Pasco County, who have been here about six years. So my work has always kind of lived in that space of theory to practice, both as a classroom teacher and a district administrator, and then throughout my own research and graduate work, which happened, you know, the whole time I was teaching and having a baby and figuring out how to be a like a mom and a wife and the stepmom and all the things. And so that partnership of theory to practice has always been really important to me. In terms of your question about like what has really shaped my work, I think the the thing that shaped my work the most was outside the classroom, like becoming a mom. I had Charlie when I had been teaching for like eight years, and you know, by year eight, like you think you're pretty good. I I mean, I thought I was pretty good like my first year, and then in my second year, I was like, oh no, I actually don't know what I'm doing. And then in year three, I was convinced I didn't know what I was doing. Because I, you know, so you understand all the things you don't know, right? And then years four, five, six, like you I felt like I was getting my feet under me. Like now I understood the things I didn't know about. I was learning more, I was well into my master's degree, starting my doctoral coursework. So by year eight, I was like, I'm cooking. Like this is this feels good. And then I had my kid, and I felt like I had to relearn teaching top to bottom, not because I didn't understand teaching or pedagogy, or I didn't understand how important the work was. I just had such a different level of urgency around it because suddenly every kid in my classroom was Charlie Hatten. And that is a shocking, disorienting moment to feel intensely, these are other people's kids. And actually in teaching, we don't get the liberty of allowing us to think of them as other people's kids. So, not in like a offensive way, like, oh, they're all my kids. I don't like love that framing, but I did feel an increased sense of urgency around like we have a responsibility to do this right, and this is really hard work. So when I talk about teaching now, I always talk about it as the hard holy work. And I I know that's like a risky way to talk about teaching these days. Like I went to Catholic school forever. I'm not practicing anything now, but I mean holy in the terms of like sacred space, you know, like we are as a community building humans and and building the next generation of folks that will take care of us when we are old. And that is hard and serious and very important. And so I think that there are some really dangerous tropes and messages around teaching, teacher as savior, teacher as martyr, teacher as all the things. But actually, this is really hard professional work. And so I think that the important thing about my path and what's shaped my thinking is that my research really grew out of my time as a teacher and my new understanding around urgency of work from my own life as a mom. The research that I started doing was growing out of my work at a suburban high school where we were really trying to rethink tracking and curriculum and grouping of students. And so, this outstanding team of teachers that I worked with, we created a detracked English course that was really built around these ideas of critical literacy and social justice themes. And we attacked this idea of grouping and sorting kids by ability. And so I became really interested in like what happens when teachers try to do work in places where it isn't always expected. Like we were at a very high-performing school, very, you know, kids came into that school fully loaded. And it was risky to try to disrupt some of those really predictable patterns around what kids were enrolled in honors classes, what kids were enrolled in AP classes, and to try to raise the bar for all students. So as I was finishing my PhD, I thought a lot about that class and the the challenges that it faced, but also the opportunities that students that were enrolled in that class were afforded. So my dissertation looked at the long-term impact of that course on former students and how they made sense of that class, their experiences in it, and and what impact, if any, they still felt now as adults looking back on that class. So yeah, I think that's what I would say. Like that, the space of research to practice, finding a space to live between the field and the academy is where I've been most of my life and where I feel most comfortable. Like I think that they are both necessary to sort of make make both places richer and more transformative for kids.

Lindsay Persohn 11:13

And Rachel, as you mentioned earlier, I think that makes you the perfect person to take the reins of Classroom Caffeine. You're already doing this work. And based on what you've shared with us, I think you've been thinking about this for a really long time.

Rachel Hatten 11:28

Lindsay, I'll just want to say on the record that these are incredibly big shoes to fill, that you are leaving behind. And so I talk about imposter syndrome with the guests, like stepping into the role that you have been filling and doing such an incredible job with the show is humbling and terrifying. So kudos to you and and all this good work that you've started. But yeah, I'm excited about it too for that reason. You know, like this space of transforming theory to practice is not always easy. It's it's not always super clear-cut. So it's helpful to, you know, have some experience in the in the messiness of that.

Motherhood And A New Urgency

Lindsay Persohn 12:04

Well, I appreciate that. You know, um Classroom Caffeine really started for me as a I saw it as a necessity for the field. I was also working at a district position. And so I I get what you're saying about how you see things very differently once you step into leadership in a large district. You see the systems that either afford or constrain opportunity, you see the translation of policy into sometimes, you know, actions that work and other times actions that that really don't serve anybody. So, you know, seeing that differently, yes, it's a whole new way of looking at education. It's very different from being in a classroom. So what you were saying there really resonated with me about this whole idea of what happens when systems are at play and what happens when you're supporting individual and diverse adult learners, professional learning. What does that look like? And how do you ensure that you're meeting everyone where they are and offering them a path to continued growth in their own profession? So, yeah, it's a very different. I mean, many of the same, I feel like many of the same patterns and ideals still exist as working with young learners, b ut it is definitely a shift in mindset and it's obviously a shift in audience. So therefore it necessitates shifts in just sort of how you think about doing that work.

Rachel Hatten 13:28

I think that's right. I mean, I, you know, I think that working with teachers who are find themselves in really difficult systems, right? Like systems that feel overly bureaucratic and overly top-down. Like it's very hard to maintain like joy and love of practice and engagement when the well like continually seems to run drier and drier. And so it's not that that perspective is wrong, like from inside the classroom. In fact, it's exactly right, you know, it's exactly what their teachers are feeling and experiencing every day with their students. My time at the district just helped me like zoom out a little bit to see how one decision isn't made for just my my classroom, but made for hundreds of classrooms, thousands of classrooms in some districts here in Florida. And that being able to move between those perspectives and still try to do the best thing for kids was really important. My work now is about trying to help teachers navigate those same systems and you know, making sure that we find ways to to fill their bucket and make sure they understand like the job is is hard because the job is hard, not because they're bad at it or because they're not meant to do it or because they're struggling at it. Like this job is hard and it requires really good minds and really good people engaged in delivering great work for kids, but also in continually pushing to reshape, you know, systems and structures that are not the best and that we know we can do better around.

Lindsay Persohn 15:03

I could not agree more. It it's all you know critical, critical parts of a whole. So yeah. You know, the other thing you mentioned that I I love the way that you frame becoming a mom and how you saw education as sort of this different level of urgency. Because you're right, every every child who walks into a classroom, every young person is someone's Charlie Hatten, right? So it's so important to think in that way because I think it helps to anchor us in individual learning. It helps us to think about what every child may need. How do we get to know them as individuals? How do we play to their strengths? How do we support them in the things that they wonder about or that they're working on, the things that keep them curious and interested and engaged? And it does, in my view, it takes that individual kind of understanding that every child's going to be different. And, you know, what does it look like to, as you said, do it right for each kid? So I I love that perspective. And you know, I I have stepsons, and so I think I've always taken this approach of , I always say I have a lot of experience raising other people's children. But I I feel that same sense of responsibility to them because we are all a part of who they're becoming and we can support them to find a path that makes sense for them, that is personally productive and healthy. And, you know, when I think whenever we approach education in that way, that we are we are here as one piece to a much larger puzzle that can support young people to to identify like find out who they're becoming, to become their best selves. It's just such an important part of what teachers do. And I often think that it is undervalued because it's hard emotional work. It's it's physical labor also, you know, sometimes to get what kids need for them. There's a lot of social kind of work that comes into play there. So it really is a very dynamic profession. I think it's it's certainly one of the, if not the most important professions out there. So I really admire the work that you all do in the Anchin Center. And and that's one reason I'm just thrilled that Classroom Caffeine is going to become part of what you all do.

Teaching Is Long Work

Rachel Hatten 17:27

Yeah, thank you. It's it's funny, I I am a stepmom also. I have three stepdaughters who are terrific individuals, two of whom became teachers too, because you know how that goes. Like they just like they're they're born into it. But yeah, the mothering of other people's children. Like I went to people that don't have stepkids, I always say, like, oh, it it is a lot like teaching. Like you love and care about these kids deeply. And like I police the boundaries of like you have a mom who's not me. Like I police those those boundaries really carefully because I don't want to overstep. I don't want to, I would not assume that. And I love those girls and want the absolute best for them, you know. So yeah, there's a lot of unlearning and relearning and repositioning of what does it mean to truly want the best for other people's kids. And the other thing I'll say is that like another tough piece, I think, of my journey of teacher researcher was like I was a pretty good student myself. And so you when you come from that and you're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna be a teacher, it's because the system worked very well for me, you know, and and because the system worked well for me, I I just assumed, like for a long time, I believe that meant that the system was working the way it should for everyone. And so that was an important unlearning too. Like that, you know, sometimes schools serve some students really well, sometimes schools serve some teachers really well, um, while unintentionally leaving others out, or or sometimes systematically and purposefully leaving others out. So that realization was part of like thinking more critically about curriculum and opportunities and tracking and the messages we send about who belongs and who doesn't belong and and who belongs where. So yeah, trying to understand those moments where we're teaching and and reorganizing and pushing to change systems when that feels risky, but also really meaningful, um, is I think the the heart of all good research and the heart of all good teaching. I totally agree.

Lindsay Persohn 19:27

So, Rachel, I know you've already shared a few things in response to this next question, but I want to ask it to you directly. So, what what else do you want listeners to know about your work?

Detracking English For Equity

Rachel Hatten 19:38

You know, I think that the work around, you know, prioritizing supporting of teachers and in bringing theory to practice and pushing to change systems to be better for kids, like I think that work matters particularly right now because teachers they're working in a moment where there's so much pressure, I think, to focus only on measurable outcomes and measurable immediate outcomes. But I think that teaching and learning has always been about a lot more than that. And I think that's what good research has been trying to uncover for a long time. So I think, you know, helping helping teachers understand, or not understand, they they understand it, but but reminding us all that teaching is really long work, that the work we do in classrooms today have effects that are gonna last far longer than we realize, and that we may not actually see the immediate effects of our good work that might not show up right away. So helping teachers keep a mentality of like, I know I'm planting seeds that we may not see the fruit of, but that you know, we are we are turning people into good, good human beings. You know, I saw a video just last night on my Instagram feed that was somebody talking about like you know, robot teachers and AI and and how terrific this humanoid robot would be at teaching. And, you know, it it gives you pause, of course, because you just think, man, if if if all people think teaching is, is just this endless output of information, like you don't understand teaching at all. And and what a what a sad realization that is, you know. Like my husband, Jim, has this great line, and I don't know who it's from. We'll have to figure it out. But he uses it with his students in instructional technology, and that is that any teacher that can be replaced by a machine should be. Like if all you're doing is outputting information, a machine probably can do that better. But that's not what anyone who knows anything about teaching understands teaching to be. So, you know, the the people that I want helping our children become good, thoughtful, informed, critical humans are humans. I think humans are probably gonna do the best job at that. And so I think AI can help us reframe and recenter what makes our Work importantly and inherently human. So that means helping kids navigate really controversial issues. That means continuing to push for what's best in the face of resistance. That means continuing to explore multiple perspectives, help kids in those conversations. You know, I taught high school. So by the time I would see students, like a lot of their ideas about the world and themselves, like they were pretty well concretized. Like these kids have been in the system a long time, they've grown up a long time, they knew who they were. So I think it's a mistake to think like, oh, we can't talk about stuff in school because then we'll we'll protect kids from those issues. Like the question is not if kids will engage in issues of power and identity and and and systems of power. The question I think is really like, are we going to help them navigate those things in a supportive and constructive space? So I think that's what I would want teachers to know. Like the job is hard because it's hard, not because we're bad at it, that this is really long work in a culture that increasingly prefers things to be short and immediate and demonstrate immediate outcome and growth. And sometimes the the work of good, impactful education takes a lot longer than that. And you know, professional learning in the Anchin Center lives in that framework and that kind of thinking too. Like we're never done. I mean, we're the we're so proud of our graduates from the College of Education, right? Like we know that those teachers are as well prepared as they can possibly be to go out in schools. And we know that there is so much learning that is going to happen in their first year in the classroom, their second, third year, like we were talking about earlier. Like that's what I love about working in the Anchn Center is that we get to continue to honor the needed and necessary ongoing learning that makes teachers great. Because unfortunately or fortunately, we're never done, right? But we can always do better and be better. So keeping our eye on on understanding that this is this is long work that takes commitment and continuing to fill up our own wells. I had a a giant in my life who really taught me a lot, who always said, you have to have a taproot deep enough to get to the water. You better, you better find a way to ground yourself. And you know, the the older I get, the more I find that to be really, really true. So that was Dr. Heather Hackman who said that. So hello, Dr. Hackman, if you're out there.

Lindsay Persohn 24:35

That's another thing you said that I think really resonates with me, that it's hard work. It doesn't necessarily get a whole lot easier. I think the hard work just changes over time, right? You're like you said, at first you don't know what you don't know, and then you begin to understand that you you don't know. And once you begin to understand what you once didn't even know you knew, then I think the work just shifts. So then you are supporting others along that that path and you're continuing to grow yourself. So I think that's one of the most beautiful things about teaching is that it is continuously challenging and it's continuously refreshing. It's always new. There are always new encounters and there's always more to learn. And I think that that is that's exciting. And I love that the Anchin Center is there to support that. So everything you just shared with us, Rachel, prompted me to with two follow-up questions for you. So you talk a lot about the long work of teaching, and I know you said that's what your dissertation research centered on. So I'm wondering if you might even be able to share with us just a couple of kind of highlights from that work you've done and maybe even the most surprising things that you learned in doing that research about what our students take from instruction and how that impacts them for the future.

Rachel Hatten 25:54

Yes, I yes, I would love to talk about that. I'm so proud of that work, not not because it was, you know, so important to my dissertation, but because the work that I did with those teachers on that team, like they it really remains a mountaintop experience in my in my career. So the the class that we built was deep tracked honors level 10th grade English class. And I taught in a high school that was grades 10 through 12. So it was like the entry-level English class. And at the time that we worked to restructure that class, there were three levels of classes that a kid could enroll in. Honors, regular, which just the name alone, right? From a critical literacy framework of like, you're in regular English class. Oh my God. And then there was a third path that we had created full of really good intentions, I think, and that was guys and literature. And that was for that was a boys-only class, which didn't mean that only girls were in regular or honors, but it it was a class that was designed to like engage boys in literacy practices, you know, in ways that maybe we weren't purposefully thinking about how to engage boys in text in those other classes. I think it was a well-intentioned idea. What happened in reality was you had kids taking honors English who were predictably girls, predictably white, predictably from upper middle class families. And then you had kids in regular who were predictably not those things, and then you had a class of boys, and I'm a mother to a freshman in high school, and that we ever thought putting 30 of them together in one room alone to read Macbeth is remains a mystery to me, right? So that was the context in which we said, hey, you know, all these kids are being assessed in the same way at the end of the school year, and we are actually instructing them differently. We are giving them different types of text, we are giving them different types of writing assignments, we are giving them different types of literacy experiences all throughout their 182 days of schooling. And then at the end of those days, we wonder why their outcomes look different. And so we said, hey, we could actually just have every kid take honors English, eliminate these two lower levels. Every kid is meeting the same state level standards, every kid is taking the same state level assessment, and every kid should be held to expectations that are rigorous and excellent around rich, excellent text, the best that we can deliver. And we will set kids up to make their own choices about AP courses if we prepare them in the best way possible in our introductory English class in this high school. And at the same time, we can write a curriculum that we find engaging, motivating, and really representative of the students that we served. And so, yes, like that was a curriculum that we built that was very rich in racial diversity, gender diversity, was really intentionally about exploring non-dominant perspectives. Like that was a major thrust of the class, too. What we found was that there was very predictable resistance to that work, right? Like, I mean, talk to anyone who's tried to detrack anything. There's plenty of resistance and thoughts about that effort. We felt like literacy was such a strong place to do this because of the unconstrained skills of literacy, right? Like, well, we're never done with vocabulary learning, we're never done with comprehension learning, we're never done continuing to read, to learn, and gain knowledge about the world. Like there, we are we are all growing and learning in this. We we are all not regular or basic in this. We're all continuing to learn. So we met with predictable resistance around like not maintaining these structures that had been so present historically. But we met less resistance around the kinds of text that we were introducing to students. That class, the first year it was in existence, earned the highest reading scores on the Minnesota State reading assessment for 10th graders, the first year in its existence. And I will brag about that till my dying day because we already know that to be true, right? Like when in context that hold kids to high expectations in a culture of warmth and love and care, that also that that warmth and love and care means that I expect that you will do excellent work because you are capable of excellent work. Turns out, you know, Glora Ladson Billings was correct when she said that warm demander is a profile that works for kids' success. And we found that to be true, and the state found that to be true. Why I wanted to study it for my dissertation was because years had passed since the start of that class. The kids that I had taught in that class were now adults themselves. You know, I was living in Florida. There was a whole different sociopolitical context in this state, let alone in the country, you know, in 2022 when I was writing, really finishing up writing my dissertation. So I was curious to talk to some former students like, what do you remember about that class? And did it meet the goals that we hoped it would in terms of reframing how you engage with text to learn about yourself and the world? Did it help you think about issues of identity and power via really strong text that we hoped it would? And by the way, did you notice that they're that you were all in one class together, that you were all in honors English class? And interestingly, the three students that I talked to in that case study, all of them did talk about how they remember the texts and they remember the books that we read. I mean, they could name them. They were naming titles, they were naming conversations that we had in class that I didn't remember. But I really thought that these students would talk to me about the detract component of the class. I thought they'd be like, oh yeah, it was our only class where they we weren't sorted or grouped. And yeah, I remember all of the resistance and I remember all the, I remember all those strongly worded emails you had to write, Ms. Hatten. Like, no, actually, they didn't know any of that was going on. Like that was the work that we were engaged in as a teaching team. The kids were just going to English class. And I found that to be fascinating because I think that teaching can feel like such a grind against this system that is perpetuating stuff we don't love, right? Stuff that we want to dismantle in society, that teaching does reproduce some of those things that we want to work beyond. And we are like fighting that fight with everything we've got. And the kids are 15 and going to English class. And so the most important thing to them was like, am I am I reading? Are we talking about something I care about? And am I interested in it? So that was a good perspective for me too. That, you know, like what can feel like this really monumental undertaking of I'm detracking this class in this very historically suburban, high-performing, old money district, like, oh, and the kids are are going to English class. So that was helpful for me in terms of, you know, you can have this sense of this work is so grandiose and so impossible, and and actually the kids, the kids are all right and doing fine. So the the other takeaway for me though, like I've already mentioned, is that the rich text that we had in that class did stay with those kids. And, you know, state reading scores aside, I think giving kids rich text that allows them to ask questions about what it means to be human, that asks questions about perspectives that are different from their own, that asks questions about whose voice is being heard and whose voice isn't. You know, I think those are the opportunities that we need to continue to find and build in literacy spaces, you know, in ways that are authentic. We really don't read text to practice finding the main idea. We re I don't I don't sit home and and pick up a book and think like, I can't wait to practice inferring some word meanings tonight as I read this book. You know, like we we read to comprehend, we read to engage with the world and understand ourselves better. And if we don't give kids rich text, even at the earliest levels, kindergartners, first graders, they too deserve rich, rich text that allows them to do those things. And yes, we care about decoding, and yes, we care about language development, and yes, we care about systematic and multi-sensory instruction. And the reason we care about that is because it is going to lead to joyful and authentic literacy practices that we want kids to engage with throughout their lifetime. And that's what was most gratifying about that dissertation work was that I did get to see those kids as full-blown adults. And not that this one class was the thing that turned them into thoughtful human beings who were still readers, but you know, it was gratifying to see that the seeds that you plant really do come to fruition later, even when you don't get the chance. Like I was I felt so lucky to even just to reconnect with some of those students in that work. So yeah, I love to talk about that work because it was it was so challenging to pull something like that off in a tough context. But the teaching team that I worked with on that project and in that school were so outstanding. Some of those teachers are still at that school, others have retired, others have moved to other spaces. And man, when I when I think about the work we did there, like it brings me to my knees because it was it was the right work for the right reasons. And everybody should should get an opportunity to work on a team like that with teachers that you know are smarter and better than you are that make you better. So, yes, thank you. That was maybe way too long, Lindsay. But that I love to talk about that.

Lindsay Persohn 35:52

No, I think that's it's perfect. I do hope everybody has that kind of experience where they work with a team who helps them to become better professionals and ultimately better people, whether it is in, you know, in the context of teaching or in the context of life. I that is something I wish for every human on this planet that they surround themselves with people who make them better. But I love that you got to catch up with students. I think that that's kind of a, in my view, that's a a perpetual question of teachers is, you know, where are they now? What are they doing now? What did they take with them? And I think that's why it's it's so neat to, you know, especially if you live in the same community where you work and you've done that for a while, and you see your former students out in the community, you see what they're up to, you know, whether older students or adults, and think that maybe you had some small part in supporting them to become the person that they have become. It's always so cool to run into former students and to hear what they're doing now. The other thing you mentioned that I think also brings another great perspective is that in talking with these former students, it was the work of the class that they they did in class, the rich texts, the conversations that really stuck with them. And they didn't seem to have any idea of what I might call the administrative struggles around all of that. I think that happens most of the time. I think that's true in schools. I think that's true of life. I'm in the process of finalizing all the details for a couple of parties for a big event that happens in my neighborhood. And I've come to at this point in my life where I don't I don't worry so much about every single fine detail. Either that or you just kind of keep moving forward rather than getting hung up on the smallest of things, because I think we as humans have a sort of picture in mind of what something should be, what it should look like, how it should function. And the world doesn't always deliver those same results. But you know what? We are the only ones who approached with that particular picture in mind. And I think whenever you realize that, that a lot of the details, they kind of fall away. And like whatever it is, is it's fine, right? It's fine. Because, you know, because you didn't have that one answer you really thought you needed, or you know, you didn't have that that one detail that you thought was going to make all the difference. You're the only person who has that in mind. Your audience, whoever they may be, the people you're working with, they don't have that same image of what something is quote unquote supposed to be. And so I think that that allows you to kind of maybe not get so stressed about some of the things that that do or don't happen, because it really is, it's all fine. At the end of the day, you know, if if our students are safe and they are learning and they feel supported, that's the most important stuff. All the rest is details.

Rachel Hatten 38:57

Yep. That's exactly right.

Lindsay Persohn 38:58

And we can let ourselves off the hook a little bit.

Rachel Hatten 39:01

Yeah, I it was it was really an important part of of my you know discussion and implications, which is like we can feel like we are just down in the weeds and the fight and all the granular stuff, and this whole thing is waging. And actually, like the experience for people that aren't engaged in that stuff, like everything's fine out there. Everything is great, which also like leads one to think like, hey, maybe solving some of these systemic barriers in the schools is easier than we think. We're we're very worried about like the impact that we'll have on on some kids. And it's like actually the the kids are gonna be the kids are gonna be all right, you know. So the test scores reinforce that. But like the the other interesting stuff that happened in that class was like kids that had been in honors English classes forever, you know, their whole lives. We had some challenges with them and their own self-perception because they had to produce in a way that they hadn't before, because like they were sort of rode on that identity of like, well, I'm an honors student. And it's like, well, right now you're being outpaced by these other kids. So you actually are what you produce. So you actually are what you're what you're demonstrating, what you can do. Like you you're being measured by the same standards, and you don't have the benefit of like teachers' preconceived notions about who you are and what you can do based on the name of the class at the top of this roster. So that was an interesting experience teaching that class as well. That like increased expectations held true even for kids that were already high achievers that otherwise could sort of coast a little bit on the preconceived notions that we all have about this class and these kids and what they can do. Like it reframed the way teachers thought about the class, class as well. So, yeah, the kids are fine, the structure is fine, and might be easier than we think to interrupt some of the structures that actually aren't serving us anymore.

Labels Shape Learning Expectations

Lindsay Persohn 41:02

What a great point. And I also think that your your point about how young people are labeled in schools does, in fact, impact what they believe about themselves. You know, no matter what the label may be, it does in fact have an impact on how our students perceive themselves and certainly how those within the school and even outside of it may perceive those young people.

Rachel Hatten 41:27

So one of my all-time favorite research studies is a study out of the Graduate School of Education in Harvard called the Pygmalion. They was looking at the Pygmalion effect in schools, and it basically was studying essentially this like what happens when teacher perceptions of students are changed? Like, how does it impact their teaching? And then how does that impact student outcomes? And so the researchers gave a set of teachers, a list of students in their classes, and they told the teachers, they were like, hey, we at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, we've developed this amazing assessment that will identify kids in your class that have not yet been identified as gifted, but who are going to later in life. Like they have this propensity towards giftedness, they have the potential to be gifted. We know they will be gifted someday. That's totally a made-up test. No such test exists. But the the that was the the study was like, if we say this to teachers and we give them a random list of kids in their class, what happens, right? Well, amazing things happened. Every kid on those lists, totally randomized, did start outperforming and outpacing their peers not on the randomized list in their classes. Not because there's some magic special sauce around like teacher belief about kids, and then automatically the kids do better, but teacher belief about kids had a direct impact on the ways teachers were acting and instructing those kids in particular. So, most notably, they were providing better feedback to those students because, in their own, just like subconscious in their own frame of reference, when engaging with those students, they were like, oh, this student's actually capable of more. So I can push them harder. In conversation, they would be more likely to like push for a better answer, to put go back to that student to get more from them rather than just move on to the next kid. The quality of assignments they were giving those students was more rigorous, more rich, more opportunities for like creative engagement, rich text, rich task. And they were just generally warmer to them, like just kind of generally nicer to those kids. So the because of the belief those teachers held in their heads, their instruction and their behavior towards those students actually changed. And as a result of those changes in instruction and behavior, they saw different academic outcomes for those kids. And I That is like mind-blowing to me, right? Like the labels that we put on kids absolutely matter, not only to the ways teachers think about kids, but like, you know, my high school students in their in my AP English class, they didn't say, I gotta go because I have to get to English. They said, Oh, I gotta go because I've got to get to AP English. Like they wrote it on their folders. They wrote it on their notebooks. Like, if we think the name of those courses doesn't in some way connect to the identity and the self-worthiness that kids think they have, we're missing the boat. That's an explicit message we send kids about their ability and their aptitude and their promise that sends equally strong messages to kids in quote regular classes, right? Or worse, you know, remedial classes. So, yes, I I find the labeling of kids and classes, especially in secondary spaces, to be really part of the problem and ways that simple things could clean that up.

A Message For Teachers Right Now

Lindsay Persohn 45:01

I love that. And I think that just echoes the idea you shared with us earlier that maybe, maybe some of these challenges that produce some fairly wicked results may have some simple solutions or at least simple ways to potentially change the trajectory of education by you know, by like you said, changing the name of a course. It's important stuff. You know, we we are who we believe we are. And if you believe that you are regular, because that's what your English class says, or if you believe that you're working in a remedial kind of way, then yeah, it it absolutely impacts who what we believe about ourselves and what we believe about what we can do. Yep, that's right. So Rachel, I have one more question for you. Given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

Rachel Hatten 45:57

Yeah, I I mean I hope I hope teachers remember that teaching is intellectual work, it's human work, and it's work at the end of the day, it's really is work worth doing. We are not just here to help students learn content. We are not just pushing out information. We are helping kids figure out who they are, how they see the world, how they're going to continue to see the world, how they fit into it. That's a big responsibility, but it's also what makes teaching so meaningful. And I hope like teachers give themselves permission to do really thoughtful, challenging work, even when it feels risky or even when it feels uncertain. That's where all real learning happens, right? Like is in a space of discomfort or or where we're pushing outside what feels warm and comfortable to us. But we don't have all the answers yet. We're not gonna have all the answers yet. The world is changing at a rapid pace. We've been hearing a long time that that we're preparing kids for jobs that don't exist and a world that may be unrecognizable to us. And and that may be true. I I don't know all the implications of AI. And I I don't know if humanoid robots are coming to teach our our littlest people. But I I do know that good work is is distinctly human work. It is distinctly relational work. And, you know, from a secondary literacy perspective all the way down to our earliest readers, continuing to find text that help kids see themselves, help them understand the world and where they fit into it, help them explore other perspectives and other people and how we how we all live in relation to each other. Like that's the work we're up to. I hope teachers remember that even when the impact of that good work doesn't show up until years later, in a culture of immediate results and and right now, and you know, who's in your MTSS group, I hope we can we can stay true to like why we all entered this profession and and the kids that we care about that we wanna that we want to do right by.

Lindsay Persohn 47:58

This is such a wonderful and important reminder. And I think one thing you said that really resonates with me, Rachel, is that the work is kind of never done. And that I don't mean that in an exhausting kind of way, but rather there's always a new opportunity to learn something, to think about what's next. And I also think that there's there's something about living in the uncertainty that maybe we can take that to be a really exciting space because we'll never have all the answers. And there's a little bit of comfort to for me in that realization that I'm not necessarily seeking some sort of destination in my teaching practice and in education in general, but it's always about the work, it's always about the human work, the intellectual work, and that responsibility I think we have to supporting the next generation, whether we're supporting the next generation of teachers or whether we are directly supporting the next generation of young people, it is a continuous journey. And we can have some fun along the way too. And I think that that, you know, we we meet great people and you learn new things and it creates new questions. And all of that stuff is really exciting.

Rachel Hatten 49:17

Yeah. Yeah. And it's easy to get distracted, right? Like it's easy to get caught up in, you know, the latest policy requirements and the latest, like, you need to put these stickers over these words in this book by tomorrow. And like there's so much of that stuff right now. It's easy to get lost in it and and forget actually what we're up to. And so, yeah, I hope that you know we can give ourselves and give our colleagues a break and a cup of coffee and like we're in it together and not in not in a cheesy like remember your why way, but just in like a way that keeps our feet underneath us on solid ground, you know, like, yep, we're gonna begin again. Yes, we're committed to to beginning again, just like we would with our own kids, right? And that, you know, the outcome of the hard work that we're investing in right now, we may not see, but but the world will. And so that's what keeps me excited, keeps me engaged, and really keeps me in awe of the work that teachers are doing every day.

Connect With USF Anchin Center

Lindsay Persohn 50:23

Those are all really great reminders. And I think that's again one reason why you are the perfect person to support professional learning through the Anchin Center and the perfect person to take the reins of this podcast. You know, I said my last question was my last question, but I actually have one more for you. Yeah, if listeners wanted to connect with professional learning opportunities in the Anchin Center, how would they find out about that?

Rachel Hatten 50:50

Oh, thank you so much for asking that question. We so desperately want to connect with more and more teachers. So they can follow us on all social media platforms except for TikTok. We are not quite cool enough to be on TikTok yet, but we are every place else @usfanchin. So @USFANCHIN. And you can learn about upcoming professional learning events there, other initiatives and funded projects we're working on, partnerships with school districts local in Tampa Bay, but also teachers around the country that we're engaged with around professional learning. So, yes, please do follow us and connect with us. We would love to see you online or at a professional learning event in the Anchin Center. And Lindsay, I'm truly so excited about this podcast and bringing it into the umbrella of the College of Education and the Anchin Center and USF. You have really built something special here. And I promise to do my best to be a good shepherd of it. But truly, I hope you know how much your listeners and all of the pod club members and everyone who faithfully tunes in. I think the best of teaching sits in this intersection and your willingness to kind of independently elevate this space of bringing theory to practice is so profound and and really powerful. So thank you. And I promise to do my best. And I'm really excited about everything that's next.

Lindsay Persohn 52:21

Thank you so much, Rachel. I'm I'm really excited about things, too. I'm excited for the future of the show.

Rachel Hatten 52:26

Well, don't think we're just gonna let you disappear either. Like we'll perhaps perhaps we'll have to have Lindsay Persohn episodes every once in a while so people can hear your voice.

Lindsay Persohn 52:37

Well, thank you. I would certainly be open to that. I'm I'm happy to continue supporting in any way I can.

Rachel Hatten 52:43

Terrific. We have that on the record, and I heard an agreement to that. So wonderful.

Lindsay Persohn 52:49

That's right. Well, Rachel, thank you for your time today. Thank you for taking the reins on the show, and thank you for your contributions to the field of education.

Rachel Hatten 52:58

Oh my gosh, thank you so much, and solidarity to you and all the other teachers out there doing the good work.

How Listeners Can Support The Show

Lindsay Persohn 53:04

Thank you. Dr. Rachel Hatten has more than two decades of experience in education. Rachel brings a unique perspective as a scholar practitioner whose career spans classroom teaching, instructional coaching, district leadership, and higher education. She began her career as a high school English teacher, where she spent over a decade teaching a wide range of courses and working closely with colleagues to design curriculum and support student learning. She later served in district leadership roles focused on secondary literacy and instructional improvement, where she led large-scale professional learning initiatives and supported educators in implementing research-based instructional practices. Rachel earned her PhD in curriculum and instruction from the University of Minnesota with an emphasis in critical literacy and English education. Her scholarly work centers on culturally relevant pedagogy, critical literacy, and efforts to disrupt traditional tracking structures in schools. Her dissertation examined the long-term impact of a detracked, social justice-focused English course in a suburban high school, exploring how students made meaning of issues related to race, class, and gender, and how those experiences shape their perspectives into adulthood. Rachel is co-director of the David C. Anchin Center for the Advancement of Teaching at the University of South Florida College of Education, where she leads the design and implementation of research-informed professional learning for practicing teachers and school and district leaders across K-12 contexts. Her work is grounded in a deep commitment to bridging research and practice, ensuring that educators have access to meaningful, high-quality learning experiences that directly impact teaching and student outcomes. At heart, Rachel continues to see herself as a classroom teacher. Her work is guided by the belief that teaching is both intellectual and relational, and that classrooms have the potential to be transformative spaces for both students and educators. Through her leadership, research, and collaboration with teachers, she remains committed to supporting educators in doing meaningful, impactful work that extends far beyond the classroom. At the Anchin Center, Dr. Hatten co-leads a robust portfolio of professional learning initiatives that serve educators across Florida and beyond. Her work includes developing and scaling programs, fostering partnerships with school districts and community organizations, and convening educators, researchers, and leaders to collaboratively address complex challenges in teaching and learning. She's played a key role in launching leadership development initiatives for school and district leaders, as well as advancing innovative programming in areas such as literacy, instructional practice, and emerging technologies in education. You can connect with Rachel and the Anchin Center through your favorite social media platform @usfanchin. That's @ USF A-N-C-H-I-N, or by email, rachelhatten@usf.edu. That's R-A-C-H E-L-H-A-T-T-E-N at USF.edu. For the good of all students, Classroom Caffeine aims to energize education research and practice. If this show gives you things to think about, help us spread the word. Talk to your colleagues and educate or friends about what you hear. You can support the show by subscribing, liking, and reviewing this podcast through your podcast provider. Visit ClassroomCaffeine.com where you can subscribe to receive our short monthly newsletter, The Espresso Shot. On our website, you can also learn more about each guest, find transcripts for our episodes, explore topics using our drop-down menu of tags, request an episode topic or potential guest, support our research through our listener survey, or learn more about the research we're doing on our publications page. Connect with us on social media through Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. We would love to hear from you. Special thanks to the Classroom Caffeine team, Genesis Zabrzenski, Leah Berger, Abhaya Veuru, Stephanie Branson, and Csaba Osvath. As always, I raise my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me.