Lessons Learned for Vets
Lessons Learned for Vets
Revamping the Military Transition Framework with Jason Anderson
When Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Jason Anderson retired after 20 years of service, his transition looked perfect on paper. He landed a defense industry job with just one resume and two interviews, quickly rising to an executive position managing operations across Japan, Korea, and Taiwan. But behind this apparent success lurked a troubling reality: "I was not ready to perform in these roles at all," Anderson reveals.
This startling admission forms the foundation of our eye-opening conversation about the fundamental disconnect in military transition preparation. Anderson, now founder and CEO of PreVeteran, argues persuasively that the military and private sector are vastly different environments requiring entirely different mindsets and approaches – a reality the current transition system fails to acknowledge.
"We don't have a resume problem," Anderson explains, challenging conventional wisdom. "We have an 'I don't know what I want to do' problem." This insight cuts to the heart of why so many veterans struggle despite possessing extraordinary skills and experience. Through his pioneering work applying cognitive neuroscience to transition preparation, Anderson has developed a framework that helps service members understand how their military-shaped thinking patterns influence their decision-making, and provides tools to create new anchors in the private sector.
The conversation delves into controversial but important topics, including the debate over free versus paid transition services and why starting transition preparation 18 months to 3 years before separation creates optimal results. Whether you're years from separation or already navigating civilian life, this episode offers a transformative perspective on military transition that could fundamentally change how you approach your post-military career journey.
The Lessons Learned for Vets Podcast is sponsored by Seek Now and their Drive Academy. Seek Now is the property inspection industry's leading business and they created Drive Academy DoD SkillBridge and CSP internships to teach transitioning military service members and veterans skills that prepare them for lucrative and rewarding careers in the property inspection and insurance industries. You can learn more and apply today at www.internwithdrive.com.
Welcome to the Lessons Learned for Vets podcast, your military transition debrief. I'm your host, lori Norris, and I've helped thousands of military service members successfully transition out of the military since 2005. Thanks for tuning in to hear the after action reports and real stories of your fellow veterans, who are here to help guide, educate and inform you as you navigate your own military transition. By the way, if you find value from today's episode, please share it with others, leave us a review and post about us on social media. Well, welcome to the Lessons Learned from Vets podcast. I'm excited to finally have on my show this week Jason Anderson.
Speaker 1:Jason is a retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel. He had a 20 year military career as a C-130 pilot and international affairs officer. After retiring in 2014, jason joined Rockwell Collins, now Collins Aerospace, where he progressed from entry-level business development to the managing director for Japan, korea and Taiwan, where he was based in Tokyo, japan. That sounds like a lot of fun. Actually. He is now the founder and CEO of Pre pre-veteran, a military and veteran training and workforce development company that applies cognitive neuroscience principles to help service members successfully transition into private sector careers, equipping them with skills needed for long-term success. So, jason, welcome to the show thank you, lori.
Speaker 2:Um, I know it took a little while for to get me here. My apologies, but it's really good to be with you and your audience. Thanks.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to hear what you have to say. I've been aware of your company for many years. I've talked to some other people in your organization before and I'm excited to hear from you. I think it'll be a great conversation. So, as we talked about, this show is all about transition, right? You know the after action reports of what happened and, like, really, on paper, yours looked like it went pretty smooth, right, but I know you've told me some things that you struggled with in your transition. So just give me just start with the story of your transition back in 2014.
Speaker 2:Sounds great. So the way I will start with my transition in 2014 is talk about 2012, because we've noticed that. You know, transition is what we call a physiological event. So your mind, your body understands there's a change coming, it can feel it, it's intuitive. So your mind starts kind of waking you up in the middle of the night or kind of disturbs you during the day and says what in the hell are you going to do? Right? So we know that that still happens to this day, obviously because it is physiological.
Speaker 2:But it happened to me and this really is where I went more on an entrepreneurial bent actually back then, much so that I created a book called Active Duty Entrepreneur, because there was something to that where you should do this preparation work while you're still in the military. This is a business sense, but applies to transition of any flavor actually where you're still getting health care, you're still got a job. It's in a protective environment. So the basis of the book still holds. But as I was going through my transition, I was trying to figure it out and guess what? That's the common theme Everybody's building their own model and this becomes the basis of the actual problem that we're going to get into later today. So, going back to 2012, I thought my solution was small business and kind of went down that route and it was fun and it was energizing and very kind of enjoyable to kind of go through. But as I got to 2014 and we did build a small business not a very good one, frankly, not pre-veteran, this was a precursor we decided to move back to Wyoming in the 2014 time period.
Speaker 2:It is a little bit important to kind of mention that my last six years of active duty time was at the Pentagon. I was selling a bunch of defense hardware and equipment to Korea, japan, mongolia. So I had frequently kind of rubbed elbows with, worked with defense contractors, so aerospace defense sector companies, and you know I felt I had a good relationship with them and I was like, oh, that's an interesting thing to think about. You know I have a lot of experience doing that. So we moved back to Wyoming. We're running the small business.
Speaker 2:And then I had friends that just kind of came to me. These are the folks who showed up in my office at the Pentagon and said hey, jason, I think we have a role for you, and I'm like I'm good, I'm happy right now, and they're like no, I think this would be a good fit. So I know this is going to sound really bizarre to your listeners because I know a lot of them have struggled with lots of resumes and lots of different stuff like that. I made one resume for one company for one role, did two interviews and got the job. A lot of that did have to do with networking, of course, because I had previously known these folks and they kind of walked my things into the right people hiring manager and decision makers and said choose Jason, essentially, you know, obviously following labor laws and all that stuff, but ended up getting that job. It was. This is where the journey really starts here.
Speaker 2:So the entry-level business development job I did that for a year to cover the highlights and then we'll come back Within a year. Then I'm promoted to managing director so that's essentially an executive level role and expatriated, with an expat package going to Tokyo, ended up doing that job almost four years, but all together with Rockwell Collins, collins Aerospace and Raytheon Technologies, nine total years. So that was kind of my experience and, to your point, precisely, on paper I did great, made great money, the company was fantastic, great culture and seeing it from entry level to executive and beyond. It was incredible. You know you were meeting with the CEO, kelly Ortberg, who's now the CEO of Boeing, right? So these are big, big, big time people, and it was run like a small business, so it was really comfortable and fun. But you got to interact across all the different product lines, the different general managers. It was exceptional experience.
Speaker 2:But the sad truth was I was not ready to perform in these roles at all and you kind of get the moniker of fake it till you make it. I will tell you now we don't need to do that and I definitely don't recommend doing that. But that's what we do as a service member, because there is no standardized model, which we'll get into later. But the result of that is, you know, people leaving the service create their own model, which you could see 200,000 models per year is not a great idea and then they go into the private sector and then they got to figure out that private sector environment. So they're making up that too, just like me, what I did. So this becomes the actual basis of the huge problem.
Speaker 2:So going back to when we moved to Tokyo around 2016 is when I was like what in the heck is going on here. Why am I not prepared for this? And to be honest, I tell the story all the time. My first entry-level business development role, just to kind of put a fine point on what I was saying I probably would have been fired eventually in that job had I not been promoted. Dead serious. And it's because I didn't know what I was doing. Even though they had onboarding and stuff like that, I had no idea what I was doing. I was making stuff up and I was taking on enormous risk that I had no idea I was doing within the company.
Speaker 2:So when you are a business development specialist, you sign up for sales Now it's way more complicated than that but when you start reporting this to the company, it becomes an expectation that you're gonna land those sales and there's tons of nuance in there that we do not understand about the private sector period. I can say that definitively. So it set me up for failure. Thank God I got promoted right and then, as I go into the executive roles and start seeing and sitting in on high-level HR meetings, executive meetings, I start seeing how the business functions and I start seeing what's important and I start seeing how things get done. And that's really when I started getting the basis for going.
Speaker 2:Wow, I was not prepared in the slightest. Not only is it a you know, it goes well beyond just getting a job, it's performing in the job, which is what we're going to talk about a bit later. But so I had to make all this up on my own and this model. It took us first about two, three years to research TAP and again, I'm not here to bad mouth TAP. I think it's foundationally a poorly structured program sitting on a poor foundation, but it is what it is. So I created, we did three years of research to design PreVeteran. By the way, I disclosed all this to the company because you have to or you're going to get fired. So the company knew I was doing this, supported it and then, once we figured out the problem, we started designing programming 2018, 2019, deployed it in 2020, and we've been successfully delivering that for the last five years that for the last five years.
Speaker 1:Okay, and we are going to talk about that in much more depth and detail, but I think you know what you know. What you mentioned is you weren't ready for the role that you took on. Right, they, they, they deemed you qualified, they'd worked with you, they knew your background and your capabilities, but when you got in the role you it was almost like, you know, we talk about imposter syndrome, right, but you really were that imposter because you didn't know how that interior of the business operated.
Speaker 1:Right, and you made it through, but you make it through.
Speaker 2:But like here's, here's where, where I'll, I'll kind of tie this back to the transition assistance program. So, like you could see, even I know we kind of briefly discussed this prior to this, but there was a huge subcommittee on this this past week and they discussed the challenges of TAP. So it's not like I'm saying anything novel when I say the program is not working as intended. I mean, that's not me saying that, that's everyone saying that, and what's important is the basis behind that. So what we claim is the basis is somebody, somebody, some poor guy or girl back in 89, 90 was tasked to create a tap program, right. So what they did, in our estimation, is they took a commercial model off the shelf, right, which is a interview, do a resume, network, right. And then added in translate skills, right. So if you do these four things, presumably you're going to be good, right. But what the implication is is that the military and the private sector are similar. Now people will kind of like process that in their minds right now and go. That doesn't sound right and I agree with you and I agree with them. But that's what we're told and I can prove that they say they're similar because of the language that's out there. Everywhere.
Speaker 2:Service members hear the following messages all the time You're highly skilled and capable, you're going to make six figures. Companies are waiting to hire you. You're going to plug right into any organization. Those messages we confirm all the time with our students. They're still there. I heard those need to do anything. In fact I don't need to go to TAP. Why would I need to go to TAP if I'm being told that I'm really good to go?
Speaker 2:It's a fundamental mischaracterization of the problem, which is what we'll eventually talk about. But the problem is the way the setup is right now and if you look at TAP through that lens service member confusion rightfully so. And it's not the service member's problem, it's the system's problem. And how they're forcing not forcing. It's how downstream the system that's set up, saying they're similar the service member is confused on how to think and make decisions and then that becomes problematic downstream from that. Whether they're still in the military, going to higher ed, going to employment or going to entrepreneurship, it's a continuum that is created way back in how the system was structured originally and implemented.
Speaker 1:So that kind of leads me to the next question I want to talk about, because when you and I met initially, you asked me that question Do you think that the military environment and the private sector environment are similar?
Speaker 1:And I think you and I have a lot of commonalities, but I think we approach the problem from a different perspective, right, and my perspective is like I'm out, you know, I do believe that the first and the fourth statement that you said are true, right, that they are highly skilled and they can plug into the environment because they are adaptable and highly skilled.
Speaker 1:I don't believe two and four, two and three, but I do believe your first and your fourth statement and that's what I do is I help people figure out how to take what they've done and plug it into that next role for them. And I think when I started this show because there are so many steps in between there that I think are so important that we need to talk about but and you said, are they similar? And I said yeah, I think they are similar because I see it as a let's transfer the skills, let's translate and help people understand that what you did in the military is absolutely valuable and worthwhile in the private sector that you come in with marketable skills and I know that you know. You just said it like they're not the same, and it's true they are not the same, but my job is to see the similarities and help service members see the similarities. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about what you see are the biggest differences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I appreciate that and, by the way, what you do is invaluable. I mean, I want to tell you that, even if we might see things a little differently, we both want the best outcome for the service member period, full stop. So I will say like, basically, when we, when we don't view the private sector and the military differently and we imply that they're similar, my opinion is out of the gate. That sets them up for failure. And let me explain why with just a visual I know we don't have visuals here, but the mind's eye. Let's use the mind's eye. So if we visualize two circles the military environment and the private sector environment what we're essentially saying, if we don't make a clear distinction between the two, is that the service member who is anchored in the military and by anchoring what I'm talking about is thinking, decision-making and experience right, which influences how you think, make decisions, everything you do If it's anchored there and they try to pull it into the private sector, which is a totally different environment, then it's just from a commonsensical standpoint it's not going to work well.
Speaker 2:Now to your point. I completely agree with you. I am the fiercest veteran advocate. But I want to contextualize properly and here's what I mean. So they are highly skilled and capable in the military environment. They need to be trained to apply those skills the way the business wants in the private sector environment. I mean what we're saying is very close.
Speaker 2:I think it's helpful for the service member to contextually understand one the challenge that they face, which is moving from one environment to the other, which is why we need to clearly, you know, separate those two and then needs training for how to flourish in that, because they are smart and capable. The problem is they go into this new environment. They're like what the hell's going on here? I mean, how do I function? I listened to a lot of your previous podcast guests. They've said that verbatim almost, is I struggled in this new environment. I'm like, yeah, it's a new environment. I mean, why can't we train them about that environment and the thinking and decision making needed to thrive in that environment before they ever leave? And the answer is we can't do that if we're, if we're conflating the two environments in the existing system, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:I see it as overlapping circles, right, and there's a lot of stuff on the outside that doesn't apply. You know, a private sector Circle, there's a big, a big Crescent on this side and there's a big Crescent on the other side of the military. You got to leave that behind, but there are some overlaps in the middle and that's what I think we focus on. But how do we prepare them for that crescent of the private sector needs that they just don't have, and I think that's really what you're focused on right that they just don't have, and I think that's that's really what you're focused on, right, exactly.
Speaker 2:So again, I'm a little critical of I will call it stakeholders out there, right, and when I say stakeholders I'm kind of referring to the government. Right, because it's their program or record I'm talking. Let me, let me kind of back up for a minute. When, when you create a enormous program or record like T, like tap, and you kind of just implement it and say here's your program back in 91, because it's a government entity and because they're a position of authority and they've got all the resources and they've designed this, what happened in 91 is everybody jumped in because what's the choice?
Speaker 2:We were given a program. We weren't told why. We weren't told how it was supposed to work. We didn't. We weren't told what problem it solves, that we were just given a program. We weren't told why, we weren't told how it was supposed to work. We weren't told what problem it solves. We were just given a program and, understandably, service providers jumped in, everything else jumped into this environment and tried to make it work. And they've tried to make it work for the last 30 years and I would argue the results are way suboptimal. And it's because the way the system is structured Now let me kind of juxtapose that from something that we call the modern military transition framework.
Speaker 2:So to kind of pivot to that real quick, because we will not fix TAP period, it's not happening and it's congressionally mandated to be almost as is. It's so bureaucratically immovable at this point. What actually needs to be done is a separate ecosystem needs to be kind of created, right, and that's what we're trying to do with the modern military transition framework, and it rests on one simple principle, one right. Simplicity is good, keep it simple.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it is. Tell the service member now that the military and the private sector are vastly different. What this does from a benefit standpoint is they go, make sense to me. What do you want me to do? Right? And that that potential obstacle of what do I need to do is removed, plus their motivation is high because they're like, oh, I can see what I need to do is removed, plus their motivation's high because they're like, oh, I can see what I need to do now. And I can see that I need to make a shift.
Speaker 2:And if we all did this in concert, as veteran advocates, stakeholders and everything else, it would fundamentally change everything. Because at the individual service member level, they go I get it, I'm lacking right now. I'm really good in the military environment. I need training to get into the private sector environment, like beyond simple. So that framework needs to be implemented. And then there needs to be training, right, because right now again, just to kind of compare the two TAP is an event, it's an event, it happens and it goes away. Event, it's an event, it happens and it goes away. You need a model, right, that the service member can take individual inputs, input it into the model, iterate the model over and over and over again to their own means right. So it needs to be delivered in a completely different delivery way. So and that needs to take place over time it needs to be scalable. We do all that, but again, the system we believe needs to kind of move toward this. This is not a sales pitch per pre-veteran, although I think we do it right.
Speaker 2:If the whole space moved in this direction, we would fundamentally change things.
Speaker 2:Because when you talk about let me go one more thing real quick here, larry when you talk about the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth order of magnitude effects from TAP, it affects mental health, family relationships, employment, higher ed performance, all of those things.
Speaker 2:If we go back to the beginning and kind of structure it differently and they start getting training to increase the understanding of what they need to do and the comfort in the private sector that they could attain through acclimation training, let's call it, then those problems kind of go away. Now that doesn't mean they remove their military identity never. But they start creating a new private sector identity, right. They begin to anchor in the private sector and when they do that right, they're no longer confused or disoriented in that environment. They feel comfort there and they can see how they can grow there and they can see what they can do there to impact with their stuff. Instead, remember, we're anchoring right now in the current system. They're trying to pull that over into the private sector and it's really a huge anchor that's preventing their success really a huge anchor that's preventing their success.
Speaker 1:You know, if I always talk about the fact that if I had my way, we would start teaching career development and like career ownership, career path ownership to e-force, not so that they get out of the military sooner, but so that they are already thinking about 20 years in the future when they're serving at an E4 level. And I, if I had my way, I would I would be teaching every service member who is currently in in the uniform how to manage their own career and how to start thinking about what's going to happen in the future. Because you know everyone, god willing, will transition right and so it is coming for everybody, no matter what rank you achieve. And if you start preparing for it now, in 20 years from now, when it happens, you're ready. And I think that integrating that you know, taking that ownership of your own career, I think it is an important thing for everyone to do. But I think it's even more critical for someone who is kind of used to somebody managing their career throughout their entire service. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I agree with you 100% in intent. I disagree tiny bit on implementation. Let me kind of explain. So, like I said, we've been implementing our program for five years now. What we think is that the service member who's paid for by the taxpayer owes the taxpayer every pound of flesh they got. But right, so in the first few years of their career they need to become really good at what they do in their career and that serves everyone's needs. It serves the services needs, it serves their needs and then their post-military needs by getting valuable experience, credentialing and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:But we don't think we've been delivering this model for five years now and we have found out that once you explain the differences between the two systems and explain what they need to do to get from one to the other, it happens really quick. So you don't need to go too far back in their career to make this happen. You can actually do it. Honestly, it's strained at 12 months just because, like what we talked about in your last 12 months, it's so busy out processing dental appointments, medical it's too much. But if you do this at 18 months to three years out, it's a great. And there's training that's kind of light and flexible, right. It's kind of what's cool about our training is you understand the problem clearly and then you get models, tool and support to go begin self-authoring your post-military life.
Speaker 2:Another way to say that is begin build anchoring in the private sector, right, and you can do that very quickly within months and then it's a process right. So it's a model. It's not an event like TAP, it's a model and you can use it over and over and over again and just like anything else. When you get good at a model, that is phenomenal because this becomes a lifelong model. And frankly, we have our students tell us that it's like I could learn this five years out and I could do this three years out and I feel confident and I feel more rooted in that private and I can see it and I can feel myself in that environment and I understand it better and I know what to look for. So it's like a new identity and again, it kind of removes those problems that we see as symptoms now loss of military identity, imposter syndrome, which we are, unless you start developing experiences in that and you can do that prior. So we're, we agree a lot on that, it's just the timing's a little different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think one of the reasons that I want it earlier in their career is because sometimes things happen we don't know that in six months we have to get out, break a leg or whatever happens, and I feel like I want them to be kind of constantly thinking about it and preparing, because I know that they're busy I know they have so many other priorities in their life and preparing because I know that they're busy, I know they have so many other priorities in their life and I think that there are so many people that get caught unaware because something happens or maybe they have a personal issue, like I've talked to people who've had to get out because of death of a family member, whatever the case may be, and so I think that's that's you know, just from those types of situations. I want them constantly thinking about it, but I know they have so many competing priorities and, like you said, they're there, they've got a lot of, uh, high priority items, especially in that last year. So that's why I was thinking about taking it back a little further. And you know, the biggest issue is what I do in terms of career management.
Speaker 1:We're not teaching anyone. We're not teaching our high school kids. We're not teaching our college kids. We're certainly not teaching our service members and I just wrote a post today about it that you know, like who's teaching you resume writing. Like when you're in high school it's your business teacher or your English teacher. They don't know how to do that. So sometimes I just worry that this is such an important process for all of us to become employed that we just don't give it the weight that it that it needs, and I definitely think our service members deserve better.
Speaker 2:So I couldn't agree with you more. And I also agree with you that it's kind of universal. I mean we're starting off in this veteran demographic but we're starting to find partners that recognize kind of what we're doing is, you know, because the hardest problem with the service member, frankly again, is the system setup, but then it's the mindset piece. I talk to service members all the time Very, very, very smart, regardless of rank. You know very capable folks, but when we kind of talk about the system and the influence on their mind, this is the biggest, most pernicious piece, because they've done hard things in the military and they're convincing themselves that they can build their own model, which is a bad idea. Let me kind of explain real quick. So a lot of recent calls lately and still to this day, again, the tap influence, the model influence on the mind. If they're not told of the huge differences, they're convinced that they could kind of build their own model. But if you ask them about it and you kind of pick at that a bit, we always say, hey, give yourself a you know a probability of success with your current model that you've built for yourself. And they always give 50% and I'm like gotta be kidding me Right. I mean, you're the sole breadwinner of the family man, you know, and you're putting your. If you don't assess 50% as risk, then we have another problem, you know. So that really becomes a the, the becomes the mind in there, which is why we need to have very specialized tools to have them understand their thinking process and understand that their current thinking process may or may not be productive to them.
Speaker 2:Beyond the military and that is our deepest skillset we developed very, very detailed cognitive neuroscience models that model the service members mindset. And what's kind of really interesting about that is I cannot tell an adult hell. I can't tell a kid how to think and I can't tell anybody. Nobody can tell me how to think either. But if you have really unique tools, like we do, we can explain how their mind thinks, why they're thinking a certain way, and then they can begin to decide on their own, of their own volition, whether that is productive or counterproductive to their success and we're finding that our tools work really well is productive or counterproductive to their success, and we're finding that our tools work really well. So getting over the mindset piece is wholly absent in this transition space right now because, again, we're anchoring, we're like. You're good the way you are. You'll be good in the private sector, which we don't think is the best message for the environment.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned it earlier. Just this week the House Committee on Veterans Affairs met to discuss how to strengthen the TAP program. It was hours of testimony before Congress, right. So they're looking for ways to better, kind of smooth that process of changing from the military to the private sector. You and I both have thoughts on how the process needs to change. I want to hear your solutions. So you know, we've kind of alluded to pre-veteran and we'll talk about that in a minute, but just at its foundation, what are some of the key components that you think need to change?
Speaker 2:So, honestly, it's not hard at all. I know it sounds crazy. The reason why it feels hard is because they're looking through things. They're looking through the prism of 30 years of a program. So they're already horribly biased and they feel like it can't move, it's immovable, which is why we need to open up space for a new system, right, and just for the purpose of looking at it, reviewing it, examining it.
Speaker 2:So the first thing I would say is the DOD needs to understand, well, the enterprise at large needs to understand modern military transition framework. Very simple concept military and private sector vastly different period. Start there. Start telling service members they are not ready, right, and it's not because of them, it's because they're moving from one environment to another period. Right, tap can stay as is.
Speaker 2:Let me kind of caveat that a bit. There's really good parts of the TAP program. But it's straightforward knowledge transfer, right. It's VA claims insurance, financial readiness and stuff. That's fine, right, those things are pretty standard and they fit into more of a checklist or a timing mechanism, right, the Department of Labor stuff needs to be absolutely taken out of this 100% like root and all it needs to be completely segmented out and then that needs to be delivered over a longer period of time, with touch points in the last two to three years. And, like I said, not that this is a pre-veteran thing We've done that model, we've done it. We have full virtual courses that do that and can be scaled to the entire 200,000 person population like right now. I mean not literally right now, but I mean we'd be happy to take on tens of thousands in 2026. We'd have to plan for it.
Speaker 2:But we all know that like to go back to the mindset thing real quick, because people go virtual training. What do you mean? So the reason why the modern military transition framework is so important is because they need to understand they're not ready and why, and they have to understand it's not them but they have to do some work and that just increases motivation across the board. But then the training needs to be very light and nimble, not like overwhelming. You know fire hose sort of stuff, very topical, very purposeful and all those things, and what they then do is get these tools and start using them on their own and then they become autonomous in that lane. So the labor part just kind of goes away. Actually, because we have several case studies just based on what we've done. I will use one as an example just to show you how this works, because you need initial training, which is what I'd call this department of labor piece, and then you need kind of a community beyond that, and those tools are out there right now. So the initial thing that we do is a five-week virtual course, right, and the course kind of highlights those two huge pillars the mindset shift you need to make, and then a comfort or acclimation with the private sector. There's more, but that's simplifying it. Once they get those tools and understand the problem that they got to solve and how they do it, and get a model that they could kind of lean into and iterate, they become autonomous. Now, do they need a little touch point support? Yeah, but once you're autonomous, you don't need to do one-on-one counseling. You don't. You can do group counseling Easy. But most of the time what we're finding out with our students is they, they begin creating their own post-military life and are fine, great, great.
Speaker 2:Going back to the case study, cray Cray is his name. He was a executive officer in a Marine Corps Rotary Wing Squadron, so he was a Cobra pilot. So what he did is he found PreVeteran he had originally worked with, let's say, military recruit recruiters for a while and then kind of went eh, I don't, I'm not interested in those industries that they represent, which is fine, right. So he's like I want to, kind of he he would mention to us in post-course interviews I was swinging in all directions trying to hit something. I was getting in a car, driving, driving felt good, but I had no idea where I was going. I think a lot of service members go oh yeah, I know what that feels like. So he went into our program the first five weeks, went into our community and then, within the community, with these tools, he started exploring different industries and companies, right. So he first explored aerospace defense and two years ago it wasn't a healthy industry. So he then pivoted to financial services and then he did a lot of exploration on that, found out it wasn't a good culture fit. And then he ended up in oil and gas and by the time he hit his employment window, right, he had two companies offering him and he made an additional $50,000 per year not one time $50,000. So we can do this at scale.
Speaker 2:So one final comment on this kind of thing we don't have in the current system when we talk about resume, interview and stuff like that. We don't have a resume problem. We have a I don't know what I want to do problem. So that's the problem that needs to be solved Because once you've down, selected to an industry, company and role and level, honestly the resume is piece cake, right, Because you know what you want to do. That's the right. I mean not to oversimplify, but the hard part is figuring out what you want to do. And then, once you figure out what you want to do, and you need pathways to be able to explore that for what you want to do, not what a recruiter wants you to do, all right, you want to do what you need to do in the geographic location you want to be in, what your family wants to do, with family input and stuff like that. So that's that's where we think the space needs to go.
Speaker 1:You know, I smile because one of the words I say in just about every episode is focus. And I harp on that word because I think it drives everything. And if you and so many people are out there, like you said, just kind of swinging around trying to figure out, they're out on the road driving and they have no idea where they're going. And once you know, like here's what I want to do, like it does all fall into place. What do I put in my resume? What, what accomplishments and skills do I focus on? Who do I network with? You know, where do I focus my energy of my search? Right so, um, I, you know, at least we got to, at least I got to say focus one more time in the in an episode, because it is, it's critical, and I think that that is really important.
Speaker 1:And so I would agree with you that the employment portion of TAP needs to be separated, right? So, and they used to when I taught TAP I had three days. I started out only just teaching a three-hour resume portion, and then they said we're going to expand the portion to three days, and now I think it's back down to maybe one or two days, if I remember. I've heard some different things, so, um, it's like they're already shrinking it. I just think I agree with you that it needs to be completely separate.
Speaker 2:so well, let's take this back to the mindset piece too, though, again, this is the hardest piece to overcome, because, as a service member, I intensely remember feeling this, and so does every corporate person, by the way. It's like yearly training. I mean you want to sit there and click through it, you just do, and you're going to approach it mentally as you know. Sexual assault, training or something like that where you're like I'm just going to click through and and kind of putting department of labor stuff in with all that other checklist stuff like makes you mentally approach it that way. Unfortunately, right, that's. I don't think that's their intent, but I know that they have to deliver this program out of fiduciary duty.
Speaker 2:We need to do it for the service member, which is again pull it out completely, have a different program. But it all has to start with the foundational kind of belief that the systems are crazy different, and we have to say that from the tops of all trees, because you know, but that's where we're going to find resistance within the current system. And stakeholders, right, they don't want to say that that is not doing a service member any good at all to continue kind of peanut butter spreading one system to another because it's disarming them of the problem they got to face. And then it's disarming them, or taking away their ability to empower themselves to get from one to the other, because once they do that man, it is mind-blowing how, how well they do because they are so capable. It's just they need a new system, and that's that's kind of where we're going to push hard on this.
Speaker 1:We've kind of touched on pre-veteran. You've told us a little bit about your initial mindset, changing portion of the five week program. Give us an overview of the whole thing. Talk to us about what you offer, yeah, and tell me how it came about first of all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so how it came about is like kind of going back to. This has been almost 10 years in the making now. So this is like when I tell you I'm put on planet earth to make this happen, I am not kidding. I have unlimited gas for this, so this is my purpose, without question. I actually think that I went in the military to create this and I think I did nine years in the corporate world to create this. I will say that all day long. So how did it come about? 2016, 2017 did the research on TAP? 2018, 2019 and part of 2020 was when the harder part was what do we do about it?
Speaker 2:So you know, what does someone do? Who is overeducated from the military, who had, you know, engineering degree, two master's degree? Yeah, that's because that's what you're supposed to do. What do you do? Well, you study sociology, you go through a bunch of different academic disciplines and you decide on a greenfield approach. So, honestly, this kind of harkens back to my father, who, of course, is my hero right when he goes. Jason, if you want a better life, make better decisions, and that just has hung with me forever. It's highly individual your decision making.
Speaker 2:So I landed on cognitive neuroscience because I didn't know shit about it, by the way Not a damn thing. So I landed on cognitive neuroscience because I didn't know shit about it, by the way not a damn thing. So I was making money. Then I hired a cognitive neuroscientist for two years almost. That was interesting, just because I became a lot more familiar with PhDs let's put it that way and how they. It just became a challenge. Those two years I learned a lot and I appreciated that learning. But at the end of those two years I became frustrated with the progress on that and I said I'm going to design new cognitive models based on what you taught me and you can validate them. And that's what we did. So our models are now cognitive neuroscience based, validated by a PhD. Right so? But more importantly, they're effective and we have lots of. We have a researcher at Texas A&M that's been following our cohorts for the last four years.
Speaker 2:So what's really strong about this is, once we had then the cognitive neuroscience piece, then we designed the curriculum. I've never designed well, I've done training material, but I'm not a formally trained person. So what I did is, um, I basically created a uh, a program. We started running beta folks through it back in 2020 and 2021 and then we started moving into, you know, integrating even more folks into it. But, um, I would say overall we've changed very little since our initial kind of implementation because it's worked so well. Now we've added in different tools and stuff like that. But the five-week course is our students say they love it because they're busy, kind of like what you said. So what's cool about it is they go into our ecosystem.
Speaker 2:We now call it the military corporate training system because we want to emphasize the system. Part of it. It's not an event, it's a system, and it's a system that they could use to their end. So the first five weeks they get those initial tools. They only have to spend about 60 to 90 minutes per week so it can fit into the busiest of schedules. We have very senior officers in there. We've got very junior non-commissioned officers in there. We have very senior officers in there. We've got very junior non-commissioned officers in there and we don't recognize.
Speaker 2:There's no difference between the two and I know that that comes across weird, but it's because we're going at a way deeper level of the military member and we're all very similar in our thinking and decision making, because it's all shaped in the military. This is where this model becomes effective. You know where we can. We know what the problem is. So once they go through the five weeks, they kind of have the tools and they have a sufficient new baseline. They flow into our alumni community and within the alumni community they get to kind of see other pre-veterans that are doing really well, get mentored, and then there's obviously a host of other stuff that covers the more typical VA claim insurance, health and wellness, different things like that. We hold events and do a bunch of additional training that gets them ready to excel in the private sector, not just get a job.
Speaker 1:Okay, excellent, all right, so let's talk about this, because you and I had this conversation. Your course isn't free, nope, and there had this conversation.
Speaker 2:Your course isn't free, nope.
Speaker 1:And there is a reason that your course isn't free. There is this debate free versus paid service. I've kind of stopped wading into it because it's exhausting, but tell me your thoughts on it.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, it'll never be free, just to let you know. But let me caveat that, right, because it's important for us. We're not a nonprofit and that is by absolute deliberate intention. We are a for-profit company, proudly, right, just so you know, because that's how the world works. And kind of going back to the military and the private sector environment, this is another where the tool becomes useful environment, this is another where the tool becomes useful. So in the private sector environment, fee-for-service stuff is everywhere. It's a very common thing to do. So we want to be aligned to the private sector that we're serving to get people going. Now I will tell you there are plenty of organizations out there that are funding their constituencies to go through our program. So it is free to the service member if you're affiliated with that particular organization, right. A couple examples Pararescue Association we've got affiliations with nonprofits in Colorado and Arizona. So it's growing right and they see the value and they're paying for it and we expect that to grow a lot here soon. So let me kind of explain the two worlds again here. So again it gets into a mindset piece and we're not serving the military member by feeding that mindset of free. Let me explain that.
Speaker 2:So let's say Sergeant Jones has this. This really puts a fine point on this very odd decision-making process. So Sergeant Jones has this. This really puts a fine point on this very odd decision-making process. So Sergeant Jones, as an example fictional character, has a very promising baseball loving son, john right. And he goes hey, I'm going to spend 1500 bucks to send my 14 year old kid to a camp so he can have better prospects to go become a division one athlete, division two athlete or whatever, and has no problem partying with that cash, right. But then for some reason, sergeant Jones, who is the sole breadwinner of their family, assesses his chance of success doing his personal model as 50% in private sector. Wants to find free training to create his personal model is 50% private sector. Wants to find free training to create his own model and put his family relationship, mental health, all these different things, at extreme risk to make that happen. When it just could be he could invest in that.
Speaker 2:It is such a strange mindset, just to be honest, because I've been in the private sector now for, you know, 10 years plus. I love fee for service stuff. I love it and I'm not. People do this all the time in the military all the time. But for some reason, this is like the sacred cow. I don't get it. Even if it isn't helpful to them, they cling to it. Even if it isn't helpful to them, they cling to it, and it's just. I, just, I'm constantly gobsmacked by it. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:Well, and I get a little tired of the anyone who charges veterans is a predator, as though veterans are these little tiny baby deer lost in the woods and can't make their own decisions. And I think that there are so many people out there that shame others for investing in themselves, and to some extent, I think that that is what stops people from investing in themselves is because they get so much blowback and shame from the people around them, like why would you pay for that? It's free? From the people around them, like why would you pay for that? It's free. And I think it's again, it's an investment in, and I really believe you get what you pay for.
Speaker 2:Right Can I also mention this too is those people that say that are the ones that are part of that existing structure. They just are, and and perfectly to your point. Perfectly to your point. Those same people will claim two things Don't take advantage of the veteran. But then they'll say the veteran is fully capable to make decisions in the private. So they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, right? So is this person ready or capable, or do they need to be saved and do they need to be looked out after Again? This is just another lens going need to be looked out after Again. This is just another lens going.
Speaker 2:This system, the way it's set up right now, is so patently bad, and not just bad for the service member, right, because if they're not prepared and aren't getting the training, remember, they're flowing into employment channels, they're flowing in higher ed channels, they're flowing into different environments and unfortunately, they're not prepared for any of those environments because of the setup, which is why we got to go way back, create this own unique system. That's different, because TAP ain't changing, and that's why we're so passionate about moving toward this new model and we're looking to, we're building a coalition around this that's built on this framework.
Speaker 1:And you know, any free service, you get somebody's paying for it, whether it's your tax dollars, your federal government, the an organization who is trying to further their brand by saying they support these initiatives. Like there are always going to be reasons behind how something free is funded yep and so I just would, I would just challenge you to invite and take your, make your own decisions, and let's just let everybody make their own choice as to how they want to invest in their future and just stop shaming others for doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, hey, it's my life, it's your life, right, me and you. I'm saying the service member, right. It is a shame that people are doing those things, because an empowered service member who understands what, what the problem is, what the problem is and knowing what they need to do to overcome it, is unstoppable truly, and that's what we should all hope for, because I think all those other symptoms just go away. But there's a system at play with cottage industries within that that do different things that serve that audience. So it's going to be. We're going to meet huge resistance and we welcome it frankly because it's the to be.
Speaker 1:Um, but we're going to meet huge resistance and we welcome it frankly because it's the right thing to do yeah, and you know, I think, um, I would just say to look at the motivation behind what is being offered to you. And so, um, and you know, I think you and I both do a lot of, I think you and I both do a lot of volunteer work, we do a lot of support work and, to that end, like you, are offering five scholarships for our listeners, and so tell us about what they will get if they are, if they win one of those scholarships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sounds great. Thank you for that, and we're happy to do it for your audience because you've got an awesome audience. So what we talked about before was kind of our military to corporate training system for the service member that's still in. We're looking for folks 18 months to three years and we hold a cohort based five week training three times a year. So we do spring, summer, fall, and the cohort sizes are usually 20 to 60, 70 people, right Somewhere in that vein, and the next cohort is being held the 27th of May. So we're looking at about 60 days right now from at least when we're recording right now.
Speaker 2:So all we would have to do is, once they get into this program and go through the five weeks, it's delivered via learning management system, right so, and it's on a weekly basis.
Speaker 2:So what we have you do is there's a weekly topic where you get tools training and you start kind of creating your own tool set, and then we have you start exercising it and it goes through those two different, the middle weeks that are bookcased.
Speaker 2:Right, there are the mindset training and the alignment to the private sector training, with the last two weeks being capstone, where you take all the tools we got you and then you go exercise them with the iteratable model that we do. So what we kind of promise to students that are going through this is you get to build your own post-military life and begin anchoring yourself in the private sector. And the way we do that is very simple. It's very pragmatic. There is no fluff in this program. It is very go do this and this is why you need to do this and this is why it's important in how you anchor and things like that. So we're excited to have you know your listeners consider going through the course and then after that they flow into the community and then after that you know they move on to doing great things beyond the military without stress. Much better relationship with their spouse, significant other happier, healthier, wealthier, which is the way we want folks.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if you want to be part of this, all you got to do it's pretty simple Go to LinkedIn, post about the episode, tag me, tag Jason Anderson, tag five people you know who are currently going through the transition and could benefit from listening to this episode, and we will pick five people from all of those posts and we will award that and you will be able to go through this program free of charge. It's about a $5,000 value total of all the scholarships that you are offering and I appreciate that. Thank you for your generosity and I really appreciate you coming and sharing your thoughts with me. When you and I first talked, I think you and I both thought we were going to be approaching this from a very different place, that we would be doing more debate and argument, but I do really think that we agree on quite a lot. We just come at it from a different approach and there is nothing wrong with that. So thank you for your thoughts today.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, lori, and just as a final comment, I'm looking forward to coming back again at some point. We have a lot of stuff going on besides this and it'll be happy to kind of keep you and your audience updated. But thanks again for taking the time.
Speaker 1:I would love that. Thanks for listening to today's episode. My goal is to give you actionable strategies to help you learn to market your military skills and smooth your transition to the next phase of your career. If you learned something valuable today, share it. Subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel, leave us a review and write a post on social media about the lessons that helped you today from this episode.