Lessons Learned for Vets
Lessons Learned for Vets
Dropping Military Transition Truth Bombs with Keith Cassant
What happens when your dream job becomes uncertain during a government reduction in force? Keith Cassant, a retired Army veteran and sought-after transition expert, returns to the podcast with powerful insights about navigating unexpected career changes.
Keith opens up about his journey since military retirement in 2019, sharing how he found his "dream job" as Veterans Program Manager at the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency. Despite rating his role at an impressive 4.2 out of 5 on his famous "five factors" scale, Keith now faces uncertainty due to federal workforce reductions. His candid discussion reveals critical information about veterans preference protections that many federal employees misunderstand – particularly that veterans who retired based on years of service (rather than medical retirement) may not have the job security they believe. For more details, you can visit: https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/vets/vetpref/elig_rif.htm
The conversation shifts to practical networking strategies as Keith demonstrates what host Lori Norris calls "the poster child for announcing you're open to work." Rather than simply stating he's looking, Keith clearly articulates his expertise, provides specific examples of his accomplishments, and identifies exactly what roles he's seeking. His methodical approach to tagging connections demonstrates the importance of targeted networking rather than casting a wide net without direction.
One of the most valuable insights comes from Keith's "find 10 mentors" philosophy, encouraging transitioning service members to build a personal "board of advisors" rather than relying on a single mentor. This approach acknowledges that different mentors offer varied perspectives and expertise, creating a more robust support system during transition challenges. Keith also shares his "one rule" for resumes – that every action must have a measurable result tied to it – explaining that "your experiences don't get you the job; the results of those experiences do."
Keith closes with what might be his most honest truth bomb: expect to fail during transition. Like knowing you'll get cut in a knife fight, anticipating setbacks prevents them from derailing your progress. Even with his experience and expertise, Keith still feels the sting of rejection – but he refuses to let it stop him from moving forward with resilience and purpose.
Whether you're facing unexpected career changes or preparing for military transition, this episode delivers actionable strategies from someone who's living through the challenges right alongside you. Connect with Keith on LinkedIn to follow his journey and access his wealth of transition wisdom at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keithcassant/
You can hear Keith as the cohost of the Vet S.O.S. Podcast here: https://vetsospodcast.com
The Lessons Learned for Vets Podcast is sponsored by Seek Now and their Drive Academy. Seek Now is the property inspection industry's leading business and they created Drive Academy DoD SkillBridge and CSP internships to teach transitioning military service members and veterans skills that prepare them for lucrative and rewarding careers in the property inspection and insurance industries. You can learn more and apply today at www.internwithdrive.com.
Welcome to the Lessons Learned for Vets podcast, your military transition debrief. I'm your host, Lori Norris, and I've helped thousands of military service members successfully transition out of the military since 2005. Thanks for tuning in to hear the after action reports and real stories of your fellow veterans, who are here to help guide, educate and inform you as you navigate your own military transition. By the way, if you find value from today's episode, please share it with others, Leave us a review and post about us on social media.
Speaker 1:On today's episode of the Lessons Learned for Vets podcast, I am welcoming back one of the most popular guests I've ever had, Keith Cassant. Keith retired from the US Army in 2019, and in the last six years since his retirement he has had five different roles, but he finally found his dream job working with the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency Gosh, that's a mouthful as their Veterans Program Manager. Unfortunately, his career is in the midst of a change due to what's happening in our federal government. He's going to catch us up with what's happened in his career since we last talked to him in season three and kind of give us some further insights for the bearded wonder of truth. Bombs, or what is it? What's your role?
Speaker 2:That was it.
Speaker 1:I should know that. Welcome, keith, I'm so happy you're back.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad to be back. I feel like I it's a little been a while, like you know. I know we've even talked recently, more recently, about coming, you know, to bring me back on, and it's just, yeah, life's been happening so life's been getting lifey.
Speaker 1:I'll say that much too so life has been very lifey for both of us lately, so well it's fun we got to meet last year in atlanta at the mick and uh, you know it's like got to hang out with you guys. That was a lot of fun, and we've been saying like we got to do this again. So always good to have you here. So just give me it. Catch us up, Like tell us about your dream job. Tell us what's been happening since we last talked to you like two years ago.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, I always preach there's no such thing as a perfect job, but you can find your dream job and I had it right.
Speaker 2:So even my job title of Veterans Program Manager. Technically, on paper I was called the Veterans Employment Program Manager, but really I was the Military Programs Manager. I was doing everything from skill bridge to veteran active duty service member, like sourcing and recruiting, outreach, marketing for the agency from a veteran perspective. And then even within our ranks, you know, I was making sure the veterans coming on board understood what benefits they might be entitled to as veterans in the federal workforce, you know so, helping them with all that. You know I was running a few different channels, if you will like, on teams and stuff, for you know so, helping them with all that. You know I was running a few different uh channels, if you will like, on teams and stuff, for you know so the military community can stay connected and all that sort of thing. I was overseeing the skill bridge program. You name it, if it had the word, if it was affiliated in the military in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 2:Uh, my hands were at least in it if not, I was running it directly myself, so it was it was the most amazing job for me.
Speaker 1:I think that you're kind of famous for like and people quote you kind of to this day still about the five factors, right, and you're going to be lucky if you get three and maybe it'll be a miracle to get four. Are you telling me you had all five?
Speaker 2:I did not have all five but I was in the decimal points. I was at like a 4.2 out of five because there's a few things that would still change, but uh yeah, there's to this day. I've been saying this for five years now and to this day nobody's come to me and said they had all. I have one. One person came to me and was like I think I have all five. I started asking some questions and he was like yeah, no there's some stuff I would change okay, 4.3, exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you can get the decimal points. I'll give you that.
Speaker 1:So let's just like, let's put the network to work that listens to the show and just like I know you're looking like we're going to talk about that in a minute, but we didn't really talk about this but I want to put that network to work for you. And what should people be on the lookout for you? What kind of roles are you looking for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, first of all, I'm grateful for this opportunity to help get the word out there, cause I hadn't even done the whole open work banner yet. I'm trying to work my network first to see what I might be able to land without even having to put that banner up, but ultimately I'd love to land a role like what I have now. I mean this, this was what I was so passionate about not to sound cocky, but I was extremely productive at what I did. My resumes jammed and you've seen my resume. It's jam packed full of measured results to show how I was able to take this program and grow it and expand it to levels that nobody seemed to think were even imaginable.
Speaker 2:Um, so the closer I can land to something like that in the private sector, the the the more I love it. Obviously, um, so the closer I can land to something like that in the private sector, the the the more I love it. Obviously, um, you know. So if anybody out there, you know, knows of an organization who either doesn't have or could uh stand to grow their military programs, um, or if you know an executive and in a company who, uh, you know that you can put me in front of so I can, I can pitch myself here, uh.
Speaker 2:But you know, if you can put me in front of, so you know I can, I can pitch myself here. But you know, if you know anybody who knows anybody, but if you know of an organization that could use the skills specifically to the military community that I bring to the table, I would be grateful for that opportunity. Now, what I do primarily lives in HR right. So you know recruiting, sourcing, talent management, all that kind of stuff. So you know I can drop the military aspect if need be in a pinch and jump into the HR world. So I'm not against that either, but ultimately I would love to do it from just that niche of that, the angle of the military community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, continuing to support this community and help them find the next role and learn how to transition effectively, I know, is what you do best. You're also the co-host of the vet sos podcast, so everybody should go check that out I see you wearing your merch on my show yeah, that's true, well, we don't want to not talk about sean in an episode too, you know so well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so definitely, we will uh link to your show in the show notes, just so people can go check it out again. Like tell me, tell me your tagline again.
Speaker 2:Don't drown in the sea of transition. Grab that SOS lifeline.
Speaker 1:I love it. So yeah, so we're both out there doing the same things, Like right where our job is. We go at it in a different way, but we're out there just trying to help veterans navigate this process and more effectively, and so, and there's no animosity, we're all friends, we all went to dinner together.
Speaker 2:There's no shortage at the table, the mentorship table 200 000 plus service members separating every year.
Speaker 1:There's never going to be enough of us absolutely yep, and I think all the resources that can be out there the better. So, uh, you know, I know there's 40 000, some bsos out there and so you guys have lots of work to do to get through all of those.
Speaker 1:So right now you are a federal employee and you said you kind of find yourself in a bit of limbo, right? I've talked to several people that are in some pretty serious limbo, including our recent Gennaro. So you recently put out a post about veterans preference and the protections that that veteran preference status affords you in the wake of this, like federal government reduction in force, yes. So can you go into some detail just to educate everybody about that?
Speaker 2:Absolutely and really I'm going to come at it from the less enjoyable angle of the veterans protections that we may not get Right. So there are and this is what scares me is there's a lot of veterans I believe because I've been meeting them literally almost daily for the last two months that think they have veterans protections in this reduction in force and they very well may not. The easiest way just to, if you, if you have access to go, look at your sf50, which is a federal document all feds should know that. But look at block 26. It does it and it says veterans protection in rift for reduction in force and it'll say yes or no. You may be shocked if it says no, uh, and here's why it would say no, right, um? Well, let me put it this way I'll come from that option, or the angle from who it says yes, for you do get RIF protections if you are a veteran who either did not retire at all you got out before a retirement or you were medically retired. Okay, if you retired solely based off of years served ie 20 plus, like me, that's all, that's how I retired you do not, I repeat, you do not get any of those protections in this reduction force. Just because you possibly got veteran preference when you got hired doesn't mean you're getting that same preference in this reduction.
Speaker 2:So, again, do your homework. I believe it may be in the show notes later. There is a wonderful link to the Department of Labor. They made a very easy, user-friendly questionnaire that will just lead you through all the questions. But it's going to ask you one point. It's going to say did you basically, was your retirement based on medical conditions? That's not asking if you've got a VA disability rating of 30 percent or more an acronym out there. But so don't you know, don't answer that question incorrectly, because then it's gonna say, oh, you get better at preference and you really don't. So yeah, hopefully that's. That's thorough enough.
Speaker 1:So any veteran who is 30 or more disabled gets 10 extra points and they get what's called a cps status. They go to the top of the list of the highest qualified candidates when they're applying. But once they're in that role, that alone does not protect them from the riff. It's only if you've been medically retired. So maybe you served 19 years, blew out your knee and could no longer serve you had. You got put on you medically, were retired from the military even though you didn't serve your full 20 years. You got your full retirement because of that medical retirement.
Speaker 1:Those are the people that are protected.
Speaker 2:Yes, and some people even manage to just go over 20 years and still get medically retired. That's true. They still get protected as well. And then, of course, yeah, if you didn't retire at all, if you just got out before you hit a retirement eligibility, then you also are protected. But those of us old-timers that just did our 20 plus and out, no matter how banged up we might have been, yeah, we don't get those protections okay, all right.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, I think that's good to know and, as you're, you know, contemplating the direction you want to go in your career. I know that you know the federal government is in some turmoil, but I do know that there are still federal agencies, federal divisions that are hiring. I just had a conversation with someone who is actively recruiting for the Secret Service the other day and you'll hear him on the show, probably know exactly who you're talking about.
Speaker 2:You might know that same guy.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, so I mean, there are still available jobs, right, there is not a right now, a complete total hiring freeze, um, but just so you know, as you're pursuing those roles, I just I think it's great to know like what, uh, what protections you have in place, and I think that's really important. So, and yes, you right, you sent me a link and I will try to remember to put that in the show.
Speaker 2:That's okay, people can always hit me up on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to send it to them that way as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, Thank you very much for going through that. So so you are, you know, likely to be caught up in that riff.
Speaker 1:You know, we don't know for sure, right, theoretically, but but you know that it's time to to get started and and I know you reached out to me and I said, you know you have a reputation and you have a network like I kind of wonder what would happen if you just put it out there, right. And so you wrote a post and I get I called it like the poster child or I don't even know the perfect example of how to announce you're open to work, and I see this a lot right. So a veteran is getting ready to retire and they'll put that open to work post out there and it's like hey, if you know of any openings, reach out to me. I'm like what are you looking for? What?
Speaker 1:kind of job do you want? What do you do really well, why would I refer you to something? And so I find that people often kind of do that in a bit of a lackluster way. Yes, and you went above and beyond with your post, so tell us about it. And we'll also like, if you don't already follow Keith or connect to him on LinkedIn, you got to do that first of all, and then just go look through his posts and you will find it. It's, it's, it's peak, as they would say.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and I actually tag your. It's tagged at the top of my profile right currently we're pinned or whatever. Yeah, it's a pin post, so um and yeah, and if you don't have, I'm the only keith cassant in the entire world, so hopefully you can see my name in the show notes it's really easy to find me out there.
Speaker 2:um, so, yeah, I I was actually a little lucky because currently there's this, this fad, or this trend, if you will, that with ChatGPT's new and improved image creation, these folks, there's this trend of people creating action figures of themselves and at the time I was seeing it, I'm like, oh, I could create one. I was like it didn't even dawn on me, like how I ended up using it at first. I could create one. I was like I didn't even dawn on me, like how I ended up using it at first. So I was just tinkering with chat GPT, like pull the thing up and you know, making, making it and tinkering with one, and and it came out. I thought, pretty well, I was actually extremely impressed with how, how well a chat GPT did with it.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, you prompted me and a lot of people probably like, hey, let's get some word out, because I still haven't put up the green banner. But I wanted to do like a quote, unquote, soft launch within my network that I'm looking. And so I was like, yeah, this fad's going on, it's perfect timing. Let's just use this as my announcement, if you will. So you know, my action figure is a veterans program manager and I just did this whole outline of what I can bring to the table, you know, and and yeah, I just you know it's gotten a ton of traction already, you know just, at least at least in the likes and the shares and things like that and the comments. But yeah, it just it took off because yeah, yeah, it's unique. Right, you know it's a little with the fads now, but yeah, hopefully not going to be looking for a job for too terribly long before somebody scoops me up, so yeah, and it was really creative right so, especially with the action figure thing.
Speaker 1:But but what I feel like you know that that obviously caught the eye, but I what I feel like set it apart and made it kind of like the poster child for announcing you're open to work is that you're very clear in the post about. Here's what I do really well. Here are some examples of how I've done that really well and here's what I'm looking for. And so I think the best way to network is and really, you know, ask for support and referrals and all of that, and kind of going out there and saying I'm looking for, you know, for opportunities is people want to help you. They do Like it's just it's fun to be able to help people and connect them with with things, but if they don't know how to help you, they're going to move on.
Speaker 2:Right, and if they don't know to help you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, they don't need how to help you. They're gonna move on right and you gave them if they don't know, to help you. Yeah exactly they don't need. You know you need help, right, yeah, so, um, and so you had a strategy in the comments that you came back and did some things in the comments yourself that I feel like blew that post up even more. Can you you tell us about that strategy?
Speaker 2:What did I do in the comments? I don't remember. Oh, you tagged all kinds of people, all the tags, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep and yep. So tagging people and asking them questions, so not just tagging a bunch of people randomly, which people do that all the time. But you said do you know anybody in this organization? And you tagged a person and the organization name.
Speaker 2:And in this organization and you tagged a person and the organization name and so tell me about that. Sure, yeah, so I just I went, yeah, I went down the list of folks. I mean I did, I did A lot of times. I have a core group of people that I know support what I do and so I tagged them in the main part of the post. But, yeah, then I got into the comment section and it was people that, yeah, especially recently, had reached out to me, you know, with my situation, and I knew were willing to help, right, or I'll even say there's a couple other people that were like local to where I'm at, that kind of thing. And so, yeah, it was just tagging them and just asking the question because you know, again, you know, know, people don't always get on linkedin, they. And even if they do, who knows if the algorithm's pushing my content to their page? So that tag they get an alert, you know, and then, or you know, it helps draw them in to again. No, just so they know they're aware I'm not upset if they don't even comment or do anything with it, if it falls dead, but at least I know that there's folks out there that are aware of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, again, that opened a banner. You can put that up too, but does that really? Who sees that? And right now we're seeing tons of them, so it's getting kind of washed out. So, yeah, being intentional about identifying individuals, because, again, without getting into a whole nother rabbit trail, I am an advocate for when we are networking, networking by organization, right, first identify the organizations, identify three to five, and then find the people in those organizations. So, those people that I was tagging, most of them they were in organizations that I felt like, hey, this might be a good fit, somebody somewhere I'd like to work at.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I like that being intentional. I think that's great advice and I think oftentimes we're just kind of throwing a net out there and hoping for the best right and we don't even know if there's any fish in the area. So you and my fishing analogies you'd think I was an avid fisherman, but I'm not. But I think that it that's really it. I think it's very similar to the job hunt because you know, like I always kind of like in, like generic resumes is like throwing out an empty hook and you might hook something as it swims by, right, you might, you might get lucky, it might be your lucky day. But instead, like be intentional and I like that word, I think that's really important about how you should go about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's hard to be intentional if you don't know what you want to do. Right, we tend to cast that net because we were casting, we're shooting at everything that moves. You know where we're casting too wide of a net because we can do it all right and I get it better. It's absolutely can do it all, but hiring managers don't want jacks of all trades or they're not hiring for jacks of all trades. So, yeah, being intentional, well, you know, tightening your shot group, as I say in the military terminology, but yeah, focusing in on a specific role, like as tight of a shot group as you can get on that, that allows you to be intentional, because otherwise you don't know who to reach out to.
Speaker 1:I just like everybody to know that it was Keith that said the word focus in this episode, not me. So I yeah, I mean, I think I saw you actually post about that today, about how important it is to know, like what you're trying what you want to be when you grow up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I don't.
Speaker 1:You don't need to decide what you want to be when you grow up? Yeah, and I don't. You don't need to decide what you want to be forever, right? Yeah, I just taught a class this morning and I told the people in the class I'm like you don't, you don't need to, like, figure out what you're going to do for the next 20 years. Yeah, right, just figure out what you want to do next and then exactly figure it out from there. But you've got to know that, don't you?
Speaker 1:in order to be intentional, in order to know you're moving in the right direction, you've got to know where you're headed.
Speaker 1:So exactly yeah, that's what. I think it's good stuff. So, um, one of the things you always talk about it's like you have these. You have some pretty funny hashtags, I have to say, but one of them is find them, find a mentor 10, right, it's something you put in just about every post. You put that hashtag in there and you talk about it a lot. Go through that with me. Tell me about that strategy.
Speaker 2:So I mean, we hear it all the time right, find a mentor. But the reason I say find 10, and some people don't even find a mentor, but right, you know, the reason I say find 10 is, ultimately, and there's usually, like I'll say, a tagline build yourself a board of advisors. Right, because you know, mentorship is great. I've got so many of my own mentors in my life and they all have their strengths and weaknesses, right, they all have their blind spots and this, that, the other, and they all have differing opinions. Some of this stuff is not absolute, right, like resumes, you know, there's a million different A ways for resumes. There's no single V way, or else we wouldn't be having all these discussions about the topic.
Speaker 2:And so, even just in general mentorship, you know, building a board of advisors, you know. So that way you're also not burning out one mentor with everything every day, but you have a group of folks that you can just ping things off of, right, and get differing opinions back and ideas. And, and you know that, saying that, just like a board, you know, of a company, um, the executive board. So you know, yeah, my philosophy is, there's no shortage of mentors out there. They don't even have to be like super formal, like will you mentor me? It's kind of like sometimes that gets awkward, you know. Informal, like will you mentor me? It's kind of like sometimes that gets awkward, you know. Like asking somebody to the prom, you know, but you know, just you know, and some of these not, there's nonprofits out there that will provide you with a mentor right American.
Speaker 2:Corporate Partners, higher Heroes, usa, uso, pathfinders you know all these amazing organizations and I'll admit yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm still in touch with some of those folks that were part of my mentorship network back then, and I've still pinged things off of them, but I've gotten new mentors along the way. So, yeah, you don't have to do this journey alone. That's really what it boils down to, though, right, it's stressful enough with a panel to bounce things off of which I have and I'm still not going to lie, I'm a little stressed at times right now have, and I'm still not gonna lie, I'm a little stressed at times right now. So, but it is so much more manageable I guess you could say a little less stressful when you have folks that are there. You know they're there to support you if you, if you need it.
Speaker 1:So you use some of the organizations like ACP and USO and Hire Heroes and you've that's how you've met some of your mentors. What are some of the other ways that you found people that mentor you?
Speaker 2:Just through again, networking, you know. But you know, if I get a hold of somebody and I can just you know, there's that click right, there's something there like I can relate to this person. In fact, I just talked with one of my mentors a couple hours ago and I met her. She, coincidentally, at the time was working for a nonprofit. She no longer is with the organization but she was with Onward Opportunity and she became one of my mentors five years ago when I was retiring from the Army. But again, she was just. I felt such a compelling connection with her and I guess she felt the same because she was willing to keep mentoring me.
Speaker 2:But yeah, just you know, obviously you want to try to find some people that are you know, they have some good like they're smart, they got their level headed Right and they're knowledgeable about the areas you're going into or the areas of interest that you might have. Yeah, but yeah, again you know, it's you just kind of find. Well, I found mine just through natural searching. I didn't. While I'll target networking for employment, I don't personally I haven't had to target networking for the purpose of finding mentors. They just come along naturally.
Speaker 1:Okay, and it's really. It's about that relationship building, but do you think you can have a mentor that you've actually never spoken to personally?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you know you go on LinkedIn. There's no shortage of mentorship out there, you know, especially in our community, in the military community, the military transition community.
Speaker 2:I hopefully one of them you know I'm trying to create content and and and you know, and I'm actually on a drive right now. I'm about a week into a at least 30 day push where I'm going to be posting every day, but they're all going to be based on transition and in the military community, so so things like that. Yeah, hopefully you can learn a lot just kind of doing that, that scrolling on LinkedIn at least I won't do it on Facebook, I'm not even on Facebook for that reason. But yeah, you know, there's a lot of great content out there and a lot of great ideas and you might even start to notice some trends if you will. You know things like caroling your resume. Do not submit a generic resume. You'll see over time, probably numerous people from different angles saying the same thing different ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think you are going to start to find those trends and those same messages, but hearing them from different people and not just like, don't just listen to this podcast, don't just listen to you know, don't just listen to this, this podcast, don't just listen to you know, you don't just watch one news channel, right? I think it's always good to like intake information from different areas. So, um, and sometimes it's about just expanding your reach and kind of opening up your aperture of what is available out there and I think you've given us some good places to start.
Speaker 1:We had Leslie coffee on um about, uh, about the entrepreneur program that ACP just started but also just you know, using them to find mentorship as well.
Speaker 2:So Leslie's amazing people and ACP is an amazing organization.
Speaker 1:I like that board of directors concept. I think that's a good idea. Yeah, so that you're like you say, you're not always bugging the same person. You know what I mean. Like you as you have questions. So yeah, I like that idea a lot. So, OK, so you, I see you reached out to me and you and I met. Was that just two days ago, Gosh?
Speaker 1:I guess it was just two days ago, you sent me your resume and we were talking about kind of strategy and you and I I went through it with you a little bit and I gave you some feedback and you and I debated some things, right, like you said, I don't know this, I did this because of this and I'm like, well, here's why I think you should change it.
Speaker 1:Right, and we had a little bit of back and forth. And the biggest thing I always say about resumes is everybody has an opinion. We know what opinions are like and so, and so I'm, I'm big about strategy, right, if I tell you to change something or do something on your resume, I'm going to give you a strategic reason, because I don't believe that my opinion is the only right one on resumes, right, but I the only right one on resumes, right, but I, what I bring to the table is is informed and educated, because this is what I eat, sleep and breathe, right, unfortunately, some days. So, so let's talk about that. Like you know, again, I always say ask for the strategic why.
Speaker 1:But what approach do you take? Cause you're getting a lot of advice and input now because you've kind of put it out there. Hey, I'm looking. So what's your approach to receiving advice and kind of knowing when to put it into action?
Speaker 2:I mean, you already hit the nail on the head. It's knowing the why. You know if I would just drop the word strategy just knowing the why behind anything.
Speaker 1:And in their lives. When I do a resume review with somebody.
Speaker 2:I warn them ahead of time. We're going to be talking for a while because I'm going to make sure you understand the reason behind everything I'm telling you to do. I am going to educate you on that because, at the end of the day, there's everything but one, there's only one rule I have. Everything else is a guideline, because you will absolutely find somebody out there that will debate it, that will argue against it, and that's okay, right. But if I give you the why, or even from my own perspective, we were working together on Monday.
Speaker 2:I was asking you like, yeah, why are you suggesting this? Because I had a different angle in my head and a couple of your whys. I was like huh, did not think of that previously, right, and I had reasons that I was thinking something different. And then to even add on, like, as you mentioned, like how do you take that in and what do you do with it? Right, cause you know well, that just depends on your opinion. Right, cause that's that's how this all works. So you gave me the why on a few of the things you know like. I'll even use an example.
Speaker 2:Right, my resume is like many well, at least the people that do put results on their bullets like they should, but mine tended to sit at the end of the bullet. That's just how I've always seen it, and I've never even heard a perspective to say otherwise. No, I'm not even gonna lie, I've thought about putting results prior, but I felt like, with no real insight necessarily that probably recruiters and hiring managers are just used to seeing the results at the end of bullets, so they'll just tend to naturally look in that direction. But you gave me your why as to why I should put the results first in the bullet, and it was scientifically backed right. That's probably the other big thing for me. I'm big on studies and statistics and all that kind of good stuff, so you know what is driving this.
Speaker 2:Why, even Like, is there like science or something behind this that will even help reinforce it? And you told me about how. Yeah, statistically speaking, if they see that result in the first few words, they're more drawn in to read the whole bullet rather than tune out before they even get to the end. So so, yeah, I mean just why, why, why? Why? I mean the why is so important? And it's, it's everything, especially in this topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think, um, yeah, it goes for everything, not just resume advice, right? I mean, you know there are people out there that give advice that I don't necessarily agree with, but the reason that they give it is different than the different approach from what I take with things, and that's OK, and I think that it's a good idea, like I said earlier, to like open up kind of your viewpoint, if you will, and and take in those differences of opinion and see what works best for you right, there is no one right way to do most anything right, and so I think there you've got to figure out what works best for your situation like and how you go about things. Your personality, all of those things have to come into making that decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and also be open to it. Right, we tend to get emotionally invested in our resumes, as we should. Right, it's a, it's a written representation of who we are and what we bring to the table. So there there's. It's natural that there's going to be some investment there. There should be if it's well-written. Um, yeah, I mean so with that. I've, I've had it.
Speaker 2:When I'm giving advice to people tend to get a little touchy, for lack of a better term uh, in in, uh, defensive, right, and that sort of thing. And it's again, and that's why I'm like I gave you the, I give them the why. And Again, and that's why I'm like I give them the why and it's like this way you can take it or you leave it. I'm not going to lose sleep tonight if you do not do anything or apply any of the things I'm telling you to do, but I'm giving you the why so you can at least decide for yourself. Right, and therein lies, because this is a personal document. Yeah, you need to be comfortable with the way you're formatting it and the sorts of things you're putting in there. So you know, if you're not comfortable with something, it's just, it's a sit well with your spirit or anything else. Uh, when you get a piece of advice, as long as they gave you the why behind it, yeah, that. Then, for whatever reason, you're just not on that, yeah, and that same boat.
Speaker 1:I think one of the reasons I like writing resumes is that there are no rules. Right, we get to do it how we want to right. It's a marketing document, it's. You know, marketing doesn't have a ton of rules either. Right, we can kind of come at things differently, and and so I would have been a terrible service member. I would have got kicked out like in the first week, because I don't like rules that don't make sense.
Speaker 2:So yeah, see, I would have been out.
Speaker 1:You got to know your weaknesses and your strengths, so but I I totally forgot where I was going. But anyway, my point really is you get to do it how you want Right, and I don't. I don't give a lot of rules. I give a lot of best practices and strategies, but why don't you say you had one rule?
Speaker 2:I want to know what that is best practices and strategies, but why don't you say you had one rule? I want to know what that is. It's the one thing, and we unless you flipped on me, you didn't debate it last time either. So, yeah, everything. I always use the word guideline and that's what I thought. Everything I'm going to talk to you about is a guideline. I'll give you the why behind the guideline. But, yeah, the one rule and it's because it's the only thing that nobody has ever argued is every action must have a measured result tied to it.
Speaker 2:Right, I need to know a measurable, tangible outcome for everything you've done. Right, but again, like, especially if people tailor the resumes like they should, if there's anything missing, that's what's missing. Right, Because what's the job announcement that you're tailoring? Job announcement's all action. The job requires you to do X, Y and Z. So once you're done tailoring your resume, don't do anything beyond that. It just says I've done X, Y and Z, but the hiring managers don't care about X, Y and Z. They care about what was the outcome of X, Y and Z, because that's what you bring to the table your experiences do not get you the job.
Speaker 1:The results of those experiences is what gets you the job. So, yeah, that's why now you're gonna front load. Yeah, okay, I like it I like that, you're gonna front absolutely yep yeah, and I think, um yeah, not everything can have a measurable, but it can always have an impact yes right, right, so we can't some things aren't measurable, you know, but I think that we can always give the so what, and that's what how I talk about it is.
Speaker 1:I like, what's the so what behind that bullet? Have you really taken the time to answer the so what question? And I think that that you know that's kind of us saying the same thing in different ways.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, and I've, I've seen the rare occasion when something can't be measured. I would argue most of the time it can, um, but I'm to to even add to your point there's a, there can be multiple, so what's? And you have choice right. Like you know, you can have something in action that you did that resulted in an increased profit. You save time on this process. You know morale went up like take your pick. You know, I mean it's gonna be long, too long of a bullet if you try to cram it all in there.
Speaker 2:But yeah, again, what do you want the so what to be? What do you think is the most impactful outcome of the actions? And then I also like tell folks you know measurement of these measured results. Measurement nine times out of 10, it is a number. You know, time saved, money made, whatever it might be. But the one time out of 10, that it's not a number, is recognition. Recognition is absolutely measurable, it is tangible. You know, I don't need to just know what you were recognized with, I don't need to know that you got a bonus in your paycheck, but just the fact that you were recognized and maybe by who you know, position wise if it's somebody high up or important, but yeah, I mean, that's still a measurable action or a result of your actions. So, yeah, I encourage people not to forget that too.
Speaker 1:I'm on board with your rule. I like it.
Speaker 2:I can agree so see we don't have to argue this one All right, I like it. See, we don't have to argue this one, all right.
Speaker 1:I like it. So you know, you and I do the Transition 30s together sometimes, and you talk a lot about being like the rip, the bandaid off, like truth. You're the bearded wonder of truth bombs, I believe. Yes, I keep getting that one wrong.
Speaker 2:Todd Nelson from Transition 30 is the one that created that moniker. For me, the very truth bomb.
Speaker 1:So okay, got it. I did not know that was his creation, so, yep, all right. So give us, like, some last words of like tough, maybe not easy to hear, but important advice for the military transition oh, if I have to give the tough one, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go in the angle of you're going to fail.
Speaker 2:Just know it. Right, there is going to be failure in transition. It's inevitable. It sucks when it happens, it's going to hurt, right. But as long as you know that going into it you'll, it'll be, I mean it should be okay either way, I hope. But you know you'll be a little bit, it'll be a little easier to pick yourself up and to show up off. Case in point well, let me kind of get again the why, right. So I liken it to a knife fight. Right, transition is a knife fight.
Speaker 2:And when I train security teams on top of everything else I do, and when we get to the knife fighting portion, I always tell the students if you get into a knife fight, you need to go into it knowing, not thinking, knowing you are going to get cut right. Because if you don't, when it does happen because it inevitably will you're going to take your mind off the fight and concentrate on that pain, right, or even freak out and go into shock about that pain, right. But if you know this, going in when it does happen, okay, there it is. I knew it was going to happen, but I can keep fighting right. And so again the same thing is I knew it was going to happen, but I can keep fighting Right. And so again the same thing's in transition. You're going to get cut, and what I mean by that? Yeah, you're going to fail in some way shape or form.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that first resume review from Lori is going to absolutely break your spirit and make you want to just throw out your hands up in the air and give up. All right, there, right. Or that first application you submit is nothing, you're not going to get anything, right. Or that first job interview possibly may not be the result in a job offer Now granted, you know, at some point you're going to have success as well. But when these failures do happen, realize it, don't let it break your spirit too much. It hurts. It just happened to me yesterday.
Speaker 2:Right, I was telling you, laurie, before with this that we actually hit the record button, that, yeah, I had a lead on a job and I did all the right things, in my mind at least. I tailored my resume heavily, I produced a very powerful cover letter. I thought I even had somebody in my network throwing my name out there. Right, I had somebody on the inside. So to me, the resume, everything was ready, locked and I got the dear John letter yesterday and, knowing I teach people of this stuff to prepare for the failure, and it's still hurt, right, I got a little hurt yesterday, yeah, and you know more, I'm not saying got to be completely impervious to this stuff, but don't let it set you back, don't let it crush your spirit, don't let it keep you and you know more. I'm not saying got to be completely impervious to this stuff, but don't let it set you back, don't let it crush your spirit, don't let it keep you from succeeding in this journey and getting to where you want to be.
Speaker 1:Was it Mike Tyson that said everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face?
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that quote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like no, you're going to get punched in the face, yeah, and, and it's okay, because we all get punched in the face, exactly, and so it's a matter of getting back up. Yeah, right, it's okay to sit down, like take a minute, take a beat, like recover from that punch, but the one thing we all want you to do is to get back up and keep trying, exactly.
Speaker 2:And again, if you have 10 mentors, that board of advisors, they're help. They're there to help you all right, hopefully, speak encouragement in you, um and and help you with that. Yeah, they'll help dust your back off once you pick yourself back up. But you know the day, only you can put in the legwork necessary and uh, and keep the resolve to keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I think even with the position that you told me about earlier, it had been out for a couple months and they were probably so far along in the process that, unless they probably could come back to you if they don't find anybody in their initial round, but they if they've already got that process planned. And so what I always tell people about applications is sometimes it's just a matter of the candidate pool that you're among, and in the candidate pool today maybe you're not the right fit for the team. It doesn't mean that you're not qualified.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean that you're not valuable.
Speaker 1:It just means that in today's time, with the candidates and with what they need on the team, you're not right. That doesn't mean in six months, if they don't find anybody, you're not right. That doesn't mean in six months if they don't find anybody, you're not going to be right. So yeah I think, that's just important to remember that, so I love it. Any other, any other, like punches you want to throw before we go?
Speaker 2:I mean, we can lead a horse to water but we can't make you drink this from the mentor's aspect. Right, you got to put in the legwork. Searching for a job is a full-time job, you know. I'm remembering that I'm in that right now. You know it's a grind. It can get tiring, you know. But again, you know, start with your network. You know, when you're in the job search, start with your network first. That's what I'm doing and hopefully that'll pay off. But getting a job is three ingredients. Networking is one part. The other two parts are resume-based, tailored resumes with measured results. So within those three ingredients, that's the secret sauce to get a job. It takes time and it's a grind. You've got to put that time in.
Speaker 2:But along the way don't forget to try to enjoy the journey, as much as stressful as it might be. Find the silver lining. Even if you're like me, you had my dream job and I'm losing it. Right, the silver lining is well, you know what? There's something more exciting out there for me somewhere, and this is exciting If I look at it from the right lens. This is exciting. There's something new out there for me. I don't know what it is yet. Right, it's like a kid in Christmas morning. You know running down to the tree first thing. You know there's times where I have hard. You know it's hard to keep that in perspective that way, but try to keep that positive attitude. You're going to be okay as long as you keep grinding. Don't give up. Expect to fail, expect to get cut, whatever, but you're doing the right things. Just keep doing the next right thing and you will succeed.
Speaker 1:Yep, absolutely Love the advice. Thank you so much for coming back and talking to me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:I want to keep in touch and hear about your journey.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I have absolutely no doubt you're going to land something amazing and then you're going to go there and make a huge impact, and if there's anything I can do to help you along the way, you let me know Well you're already done a lot, so I can't thank you enough.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, thanks for having me on. It's been amazing. And, yeah, I look forward to sharing the good news here, hopefully sooner rather than later. All. And yeah, I look forward to sharing the good news here, hopefully sooner rather than later, all right, and anybody that's listening.
Speaker 1:If you are not following Keith Cassant on LinkedIn, you are missing valuable wisdom, and if you hear of anything that you think he's a match for, please reach out to him, so thanks. Thanks for listening to today's episode. My goal is to give you actionable strategies to help you learn to market your military skills and smooth your transition to the next phase of your career. If you learned something valuable today, share it. Subscribe to our podcast and our YouTube channel, leave us a review and write a post on social media about the lessons that helped you today from this episode.