If you're actually listening to this and you're thinking my creative director is an asshole, my boss is an asshole, okay, I get it. But before you kind of think that, just double check and think is it ego or is it the pressure of wanting to produce amazing work for the customer that converts? All right. Yeah. I keep reaching for something, but I don't have it. It's middle of the day. Yeah. To find a weird time to record. It just wouldn't be very responsible of us today to I know. Especially with the week I've had.
SPEAKER_01I was just saying you probably something harder than a beer, I'll bet you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think I think after work I'll be heading over to the LCBO to see what we can find. Ice. But yeah, like I mean, the whole country's burning up. Yep. All right. Which, you know, sucks. And despite what a lot of Americans believe, no, we're not just sending down poison. This isn't a big conspiracy thing. We're not out to get you guys, okay? We legitimately have got a lot of shit on fire up noise. This is true. It's it's pretty bad. It's pretty bad. And then with that, I don't know if if if that had a cause to do with it, but then I got this heart thing that was just freaking going which really started my week off kind of shitty. And I don't know if it had to do with the w with the air or what, right? But again, that was setting me off. And then what was it, Wednesday? I came back thinking I can I can handle this. Okay, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I got this. And then all of a sudden I get all this work BS happening, which was driving me fucked out. And so here I am. I'm not feeling good. Yeah, yeah. And then I've got these stupid work questions coming on that were just setting me off. And I'm like, so so that's where we're going today. Isn't that the whole house is on fire? And and it isn't Moss's, you know, little heart issue, which really isn't an issue, guys. It's been solved. But I mean, I got something lingering. But um, you know, but then it was just this work stuff that was setting me off and make it literally made me go home early again, like because I'm it was giving me anxiety. Well, it was just, you know, it was a lot of, you know, um, uh people are sending stuff over for review, right? And I'm looking at it and I'm like, guys, we've talked about this. Why, why am I seeing this again? You know, so again, send back changes, then somebody else sends over some stuff. Oh, hey, here's the new stuff. I need you to prove it. I'm like, well, we just talked about this last month. Like, you know, there's a new format that we're doing, and this is why there's a new format, right? And so I'm sending stuff back. And I mean, again, I'm I'm I'm getting so I had to leave. Really? And again, I did. I left at like, what was it, three o'clock, middle of the afternoon? I was like, Mac, I'm sorry, I I I gotta go. This is too much because again, it was because I was getting so frustrated. Wow. Because it was like, I, you know, I keep thinking to myself, don't you guys think for yourself? And don't get me wrong, I love, I love my team, I love my team. And I think I was maybe a little bit too anxious here, but but the reality is, and I always say this, I don't, I don't want parrots. Yes, right? I want people who can think for themselves. Right. And a lot of the shit that I was going on about, you know, it seemed petty at the time. And I'm just like, but but I always came back. I'm looking at it, I'm like, uh, and I'm like, We've been here before. We've been here before. Just look at it. Yes, just is this logical, right? Think this through. Right. And this is where I was getting upset about this, right? And I guess, you know, and then of course, then I was like, wow, have I just turned into that guy? Right? Oh, that's okay. That explains the title of this episode. Yeah. Well, because then ultimately, here I am. It was like I come in after, like, you know, they don't know I was off with some sort of heart. They're probably thinking I was just out tanning for the day. Come back and I'm like seagull manager shitting over everything. And so, you know, and then I'm like, so it's like, have I become that creative director, right? Have I become that that just, you know, it's not up to my standards, it sucks, it's ugly, right? Have I become that impossible to work with? So and so this is why I thought this would be kind of a neat topic to go through. Interesting. Because again, I went through a little bit of a, you know, is it me or is it you type thing? Right? And and I think this is a value to talk because everybody has worked, you know, for for you know, designers, creative directors, you know, that just seem impossible to work with. Right. Right? They whether they're they're assholes, whether they're toxic, or whether they're just really demanding. And I think that this warrants a really good conversation today because I'm feeling that way. And I was this week. Really? Uh I'm not today now. Today I'm like, no, I'm perfect. I'm perfect. Far from. But I think this is worth talking about. Yeah, absolutely. Because again, it's like, you know, I'm starting to wonder that if the designer, the bosses that people work with, are they actually hard to work with, or are they hard to work because they're assholes? Or are they hard to work with because they just care so fucking much?
SPEAKER_01I think that's the same coin. Oh different size of the coin. I think you kind of have to be a bit of an asshole, which is not to say that you are. Yeah, no, no, no. I was this week, guys.
SPEAKER_00I was this week, right?
SPEAKER_01But also, I think you could say you could take the flip side of that is people value what you your input is so much that they they kind of need that but is it but it's also a crutch. It's also a crutch because you can crutch for that. You can be like I you you could you could go and do something and say, oh, I don't know what to do here. I'm just gonna ask Moss.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I don't mind that. And that's fine, but most of the time you should be able to have that gut instinct. There's something, you know, especially, especially if every everything we do here has has a brand look. Yes. Well, for right, you're right there, yes. So there should not be any kind of there there are parameters that we're all that we're all following. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there really shouldn't be unless it's some extreme thing. Well, and that's and that's kind of where I think where I was getting hung up this week, because it wasn't ever really design um uh how great something looked. Never complaining about that. Because everything always looked good. It always looked good. Okay, yes, it was more performance-based stuff, right? Where's the thinking here? What why, you know, just read this over. It doesn't read right. Hey, we've already, you know, like it's it's almost like, you know, I I didn't even feel like I was mentoring, you know, like I appreciate the mentoring part. And I do try hard to to mentor our team when I can, right? And and not be critical of what they're designing, but you know, the thought process behind the design to make sure, right? Right. But I feel like I was just doing a lot of the same replaying shit over and over and over, right? Right. And so I this is where it's like I started thinking, like, what why was it coming across this way? Why was it driving me nuts? And a lot of this came back to the whole idea of, you know, I do, like I genuinely care.
SPEAKER_01You do, right?
SPEAKER_00And again, and I don't mean I care about my employees. I do, yes, of course. But the thing is, it's like I had this commitment to my customer. Right. Okay. I always have. Yeah. Okay. So it's like when when you know a a new low new logo project comes in, right? Like some people will be like, oh, cool, new logo. I'm sitting there thinking, holy shit, this customer.
SPEAKER_01Well, no, not just the money, the money's fun. But but I'm and I'm not even saying money, I'm saying all the work that's coming behind there, from a business perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yes. But but what I what I hear, you know, or what I feel is when when there's a new logo project coming in or a new brand project or something, it's it's that somebody is trusting me with their company. Yes. And it's a big responsibility, right? It's not just a matter of make it look pretty and we'll see you later, because we don't take on those kind of customers, right? This is, hey, you know, I'm bringing you a piece of my company that's worth tens of millions, of hundreds of millions, even billions. Yes. I need your help. Yes. I take that shit pretty seriously. Yes, you should. So while some people, you know, internally, you know, are just thinking, hey, it's just um, you know, creative, it's it's a new logo project, it's a new design project. Let's let's get our feet dirty. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is so much more than that. Bigger than that. It is, it's huge. So again, so it's like I got this whole responsibility now behind it, right, you know, that I actually care about it. So I think that's where it's like this whole idea about maybe some of the assholeness is isn't because we're just assholes, it's it's because we fucking care so much.
SPEAKER_01Because you A, you care, you're on the hook for it. On the hook. This is the this is the big thing. Whereas anybody else out there is not. Yes, yes, yes. In all fairness, yeah. And that's not right. No, because in that sense, I think if and and we kind of chatted earlier about uh about this. I think if you're on a team and you're in a small studio, we're not Yeah, we are we're not pentagrammed by any. Oh, yeah, no, no, no. But I think you uh have a a responsibility. You there you have a a vested interest in this as much as you do. Well, yeah. We want this to to keep getting bigger and hire more people.
SPEAKER_00And better knees. I I'm actually more focused in a reputation. I like that. And I think that's people know where it gets shit done coming. Exactly. But that's it. Like it's not even about, you know, like the the outcome per se, right? Because again, I know that we're all capable of making it look great, right? Yes. But again, I'm I'm really focused on, you know, making it perform great. Right. The results. The results, the outcome of what we create from, right? And so this, you know, I we had an employee once who just he just didn't care. And I mean, I loved the guy, you know, and I had this conversation. I was like, dude, don't you actually care? Like you just you you just gave him the minimum and you didn't think it's like, well, no, I don't care. It's not my company. And he actually had that, and I think he meant, I think he meant they're not his company, not addictive factor. And you know, the reality is it killed me when he said that. Now we were we were in a place, unfortunately, where I couldn't let him go. Yes. Otherwise, I would have let him go on the spot. Like to me, it was, but from that day forward, I looked at him with a different lens. I could never look at him the same because there was a huge difference between how we viewed the same customer. Right. I was looking at it being like, look, this is clearly like not the best way to do this. Yeah, you know, it's just it's like the first attempt. Yeah. Wasn't the right attempt. It was just first, it's easy, done, here you go, Mr. Customer. But it wasn't even the best. And where he was just like, oh fuck, who cares? Yeah. I was like, I care. And that was that was what killed me about this. You know what I mean? Because they hire us to look, they don't just hire us to do the job quickly. No. No. They hire us to notice things that other people don't notice, that they wouldn't notice. Yes. Right? If they're like, oh, just slap a button on there, anybody could fucking do that.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's exactly it. And and this, I think I know what you're talking about. Uh you could you could have done just an extra 10% more. You know what I'm saying? But there's not even that kind of money, right?
SPEAKER_00It's so true. Well, and again, it's just like it, and and I think that's where a lot of the big frustration comes because it's like, you know, some people, and and this goes some employees that we might have, some employees other people might have, maybe even some attitudes that some of our listeners have. You know, they just they view something as just get it finished. Yeah, it's and that's the goal. Here, just finish it, kill it and over. Yeah, finish it and get, and and it's just like, then they send it to me. It's like, here it's finished, and they give it to me. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not finished. Yeah, right. But they're like giving it to me because it's like, oh, it's a hot potato, hot potato, pass it back over to Moss, right? And no, it's not like I mean, it's it's it's not finished. And they're like, oh, but but the customer wants it today. They need it today. So here, like, should we just give? She's like, I don't fucking care. And I've said that a couple times in the past two weeks, because two times it's come back, well, the customer needs it today. And I'm like, I don't fucking care if the customer it's wrong. Yeah, the customer doesn't want something. If if I have to tell them you're not gonna get it until tomorrow, and this is why, because yeah, there's something better on that's the goal, not to meet that deadline.
SPEAKER_01And and in your experience, yeah, how many clients would appreciate hearing that? Every single one, every single fucking one without a doubt. If you're gonna hold on to it and give me something that's gonna be better than what I asked for, exactly. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Don't get me wrong, I am a huge proponent of you know, at 80% ship it out, but looks 80% ship it out. Yeah, yeah. Not performance, not thought process. If it's a dud, forget it. It's not gonna work anyway.
SPEAKER_01And it's coming back regardless. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00And that would kill me. Right? Okay, when it comes back and the customer's like, um, this one did you look at this? Yes, dude. Yes, like that kid, that hurts me so much in this case, right? So again, I don't see, I look at I never see something as finished in that sense, right? Yeah, design-wise, sure, right? But I don't focus on the design. I focus on, you know, how it's gonna be the outcome. Is it do we have the best call to action in place? Do we have the best messaging in place? Should we tweak this message to be to work harder since the customer's only gonna see this for like three to five seconds? Like, you know, it's a whole bunch of things. Uh, but again, I never ever see anything finished. Okay, not has nothing to do with perfection, it's purely performance based, right? So perfection, I never strive for looking for perfect, but again, it needs to perform its best. And that's what I focus on, right? So again, and and that's what customers rely on us for. So I think that's where a lot of that angst for me gets gets again, because it's it's not a matter of finishing that damn job. Yeah, it's a matter of you know, giving the customer the right job, okay? Don't worry about if it's if it's a day late or whatever. Yeah, that should never actually be part of the decision process, okay? No, oh, the customer needs it today. So here, let's just ship it quick. Yeah, we got to get rid of this. Uh, did you guys look at it? There's not even a website address on there, there's no call to action. Is that even the right fucking logo? Oh, geez. You know, it's bad when. Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, it's happened, okay? It's happened. I remember I had, I remember I had a team, and this was early in the years, and they were like, you know, Moss, you need to give us more responsibility, right? I'm like, okay, that's that's fine. You want this. They're like, you know what? Let us have one job and we'll take it from beginning to end for you. You know, and I was like, okay, okay, no problem. If if this is me, right? Yeah, they go, they get it out. They had to get this special unique promo item for the customer with their logo, and it was unique, it was cool. Ship it out, right? We get 2,000 units back. Had the wrong phone number on there. And it's just like, and this was one of those I didn't say anything. I didn't have to say anything. Oh, you didn't, yeah. Because they fought to have all this responsibility. And in the end, I was just like, I turned around and went to my office and I shut the and just a couple days later, a new order came in. The correct. And now all of a sudden there was no profit to be made on this job. But how it's just again, it was just it's a different sense of commitment that we have.
SPEAKER_01Oh, and and fair enough. Like, I mean, that is a great, I would think. Yeah that those employees probably learned a valuable lesson that day.
SPEAKER_00Right? Never ever had to talk about call to action, phone numbers, double checking your phone. Or double checking your work. Yes. Oh my God. I think they were so terrified about that. But see, so here's that thing, right? So I always feel like there's so much responsibility, okay, that the customer has given to me. Right. So, which is why I guess inherently through that, I have this crazy high, high standard level. Right. Leveled, you know, and and maybe that's where it's like some of this stuff is a no-brainer for me. Yeah. Okay. It was just like, well, of course the hierarchy should look like this, right? And we've created these high standards, right? But a lot of the other stuff that isn't necessarily as black and white is where the thinking is missing at times. And that's the part that really, you know, that's the part that frustres me out, right? Yeah. But I guess that's difficult for some people to see. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01You know, a lot of time too, people are on are on different paths.
SPEAKER_00Well, geez, right? Okay, fine. Okay. But then let's let's think about this though. Okay. So then let's let's you're right about the different paths and then expecting delivering in high standards. Fine, okay. Right. But if we're talking about standards and high standards, right, then you have to start thinking about, you know, historically, there's been some designers out there that are notorious to work with, right? Mass Movignelli, um, you know, David Carson apparently in his peak wasn't very great. Polisher was kind of a hard ass, right? Um, you know, fuck even Chris Doe, in all fairness. You know, and like I said, I I have never worked with any of those other ones, but you know, I've talked to Chris many times, you know, and if there's one thing that I think all these guys have in common, it's that they're not agreeable. They're not easily agreeable. And I can say this for, you know, we just had a podcast with Chris this year. He did not agree with us once. I came to a point where it's like black, white, red, blue. Exactly. This guy's blue. No, it's not, is it? And it's like, come on, Chris, work with me, man. Yeah. No, but it's true. It's a lot of times, okay, this whole thing they're difficult to work with, is it that they're difficult to work with, or they're just not easily. I mean, let's face it. Yeah. If a customer hires us to just agree with them, yeah. Well, well, number one, what good would that be? That's useless. It'd be absolutely useless, especially because chat will agree with you on everything. Yes. Hire by open up Chat GB, just they'll tell you how great you are all day long. But I mean, you know, they again, they don't want us to necessarily be agreeable to all their ideas because then that's not our job to actually, you know, push through to a better solution. If we agree to their first solution every time, right?
SPEAKER_01It yeah. They we're not doing our job. Exactly. It to seven times out of ten, yeah, whatever that is is gonna fail because the customer isn't seeing they don't see through the force through the trees, right?
SPEAKER_00Right. Sometimes the most powerful thing that, you know, um a designer can actually say is that, you know, I I don't think that that's the real problem. No, that that's the real problem. Or that's great, or that's right. Right. Okay. Yeah. And that's the thing, right? Where I think, you know, that's that's definitely. I mean, no legendary designer is known for being agreeable. Yeah. Let's face it. This is true, right? Because we can't be.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we look through the world through a completely different fucking lens for the customer. You can't get to that certain level without that kind of difficult conversation. Yeah, I wouldn't say difficult conversations.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's true, but but but no, but different difficult conversations generally lead to better solutions. Oh, yes, yes, right? Because if you can't push them, yeah, okay, they're never gonna get out of their comfort zone. They're never gonna reveal more information because they never thought to be. Dude, it's it's part of my thing. I mean, my customers, I've got customers, and they always expect me to challenge, okay? And you know, early on in my career, it would be a joke, and I'd always be like, oh, well, let me just play devil's advocate here. Because everybody was, you know, like, okay, here we go. Now it's like on my presentations, I always have a big just challenge. Yeah, okay, and they expect it. Or even halfway through a presentation, they'll be like, Moss, what do you think? Yeah, or what do you have? Because they know I'm never gonna be like You're not gonna say this is perfect. I love what you got here. I will always throw something else, and they'll be like, good point, good thinking. And and I think that's what all these designers do on a regular debate. Because by pushing through, okay, you're gonna get the right solution. But that right solution is never, ever the first solution. Ever. I don't care what anybody says. Nope. Nope.
SPEAKER_01Right? Yeah, nothing is is perfect right out of the box. Yeah, right. Whatever they give you, that brief, whatever that is, is it's gonna be wrong. It's gonna be, it's gonna be it may not be wrong, wrong, fair, but it's not going to be clear what they what they're asking for.
SPEAKER_00Well, it might not be that solution then. How about we we we'll go to that, right? That's good. Like it's because you're right. It's like they're like, hey, I need this. This is what I want. Yes. And it's like, okay, and this is the message that we were thinking of working with. It's like, really? Okay, I that's what you want. Yes. That's probably not the right message then, if that's what you want. Right. And then you kind of can keep going from there.
SPEAKER_01Like, how many times, how many clients have we had that have just been so difficult that you just had to say, I'm done? Oh, we've had a couple.
SPEAKER_00Well, we've had definitely. Actually, I've even had some where I I refuse to put them on the rest of the team. I'm like, no, you know what? This isn't jiving with the agency. Yeah. The money's great. Sometimes the money was so good. Was so good, but but I can't sell myself. You cannot do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's it, right? I couldn't put that off to somebody else at the office. That's within the team.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're right. You can say we've done that. We have. You can say, I I know this. I know we've had clients before that were very difficult and lucrative. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But it's just not worth the hassle. 100%. And you could say, I don't need this. I don't need this hassle for the very little payoff that it's going to be to be a yes man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're right. And just be able to just like take the money and just do the job. Because you we have we're we're very fortunate to have gotten to a place that we can do that. Not fortunate. This is your hard work. Well, fine. Fair enough, right? You asshole, because I'm an asshole.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm serious. This is just experience. This is uh everything that you've learned, that your path that you've learned. Yeah, fair, fair.
SPEAKER_00And you know what's interesting is we've actually never lost a customer because of my assholeness system. Well, whatever that's we haven't, we have turned away and fired customers because of it. But you're right, we've never actually lost it.
SPEAKER_01I think it's just because you you you they're they're just so frustrating that you that even you can't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Fair enough, right?
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean? Like I know. That's the real reason I was grumpy this week.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, but I think most you're you're a very agreeable kind of guy. And I think for the most and you're a very positive guy. And I think people resonate with that. You're our clients for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good thing. And they do expect they try to find a difference. And they do. And even and they know. They know full well. And even, you know, I wonder if they would, you know, look back and and uh our customers or whatever, if they actually look at us, uh, or me or Sagmeister or Vignelli. I wonder if the customer actually looks at them and thinks they're difficult. I wonder. Or they think, oh, that designer's an asshole. But he's so good at I wonder if they do. I don't know. You know, that I think that's kind of a hmm. Yeah, it's again it's like interesting thought. You know, because nobody ever wants to think that they're wrong and that they're told they're wrong. Right? And and oftentimes, you know, I had some customers in the early days when I would say something and they'd be like, ooh, but I realized it wasn't, it wasn't that I was telling them they were wrong they didn't like. It was just my delivery was sometimes pretty much. I delivery sometimes can be pretty blunt. It still is to this day, and people who love me know it. But I mean, I guess nobody ever wants to hear that they're wrong or that their idea is no good. Right. Are you talking to the clients or the customers? Both. Customers or employees both. Both or the employees? Oh, both of us. I think both, right? Because again, we tell customers all the time that you know they're wrong. Yeah. Um, in polite ways. And cust and employees, they don't necessarily I I have never been like, no, you're wrong. But if they'll give me something, I'll be able to like mark the shit out of it. I'll be like, dude, like, what about this? What about that? Like, come on, we talked about this, right? So it's like, do they think I'm an asshole? Because it's like or or is it because deep down inside maybe they know it was true and maybe they were focused on finishing it instead of thinking it through? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01That's interesting. I I try to, I don't understand that really. Like I'm pretty and and I'm lucky. I'm I'm very fortunate. I I have kind of a free reign. I don't really bounce bounce. You've earned that though. But I think I kind of have. Absolutely. Because there's a there's a there's there's a mental aspect to it that you know I think I I think with age and experience you you get that. Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00And I don't know if everybody you develop a standard. And that's the thing. And and again, I when I walk past your desk sometimes and I'm peek I'm peeking over to see what you're working on, it always looks good. Okay, good. It's always on the same standard, it's always awesome. I I very rarely am I like, hey, dude, what yeah. Sometimes if I'm like, hey, that's awesome. Yeah. Did you think about this? I sometimes want to and do that.
SPEAKER_01And see, yeah, yeah. And that's the beauty of that kind of that kind of thing. But whereas whereas some people, if if you if you're offended by by somebody telling you, I don't like this or this is wrong or something like that, then this is not the gig.
SPEAKER_00Well, exactly, right? Because you're gonna get a lot of rejection. Well, and that's it. Because if they if they think that you know their work is being criticized on a regular basis, it's not a criticized. It's not exactly it's not a criticize. It's not critical, it's because it's never personal. Yeah, no, it's not. It certainly isn't. And it's it's it's it's always about the work. Yes, but oftentimes it's it's rarely about the design. No, it's just about you know the the the ongoing execution. You know, have you thought this through? Why is that font, like that font is so thin, it's illegible, looks great. Yeah, can't even read it from like, you know, if I just glanced at this. Like sometimes it's really obvious stuff, right? That it's like we've talked it through all the time. So then it's like, or maybe they they deep down inside they know they they missed it, and then they they're like, it's easier to push it off and be like, I don't know, he's just difficult. He's he's an asshole. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01But you could totally, I I could totally see that where you would be you'd be offended that you did it wrong and lash out at the person who's interesting who's saying that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas you, yeah, you're right, you know fully well, full well that you fucked that up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And this is a kind of a weird spot because we for some reason nobody likes to to take accountability of of things. I don't understand how that's happening. I don't, I don't get that either. I've fucked up so many times.
SPEAKER_00You don't know not under my watch, but anyway.
SPEAKER_01But you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of mistakes, but I've learned from them all. But you've learned you're not doing the same mistakes. And over and over. And and I like to think if I'm told something, I will do that. You know what I mean? Like, because it's kind of there. And it's like, I don't know, the the fear of of of failure or whatever that is. But it's just something ingrained that you have to do better.
SPEAKER_00But I mean, do better for yourself or for that other person.
SPEAKER_01For yourself and for the whole team, for everybody. See, that's nothing in the which goes back to the the the you know the the group effort of our team bringing Z to the to the top agency.
SPEAKER_00What do you think though about if you were doing this underneath someone like Paul Rand, right? Like, okay, so okay, we're talking about somebody. We're talking about somebody here who who basically told Steve Jobs, if you want to work with me, fine, but give me 100 grand and leave me the hell alone. Don't you talk to me? One year. Don't you fucking talk to me and I'll call you when I'm ready. Right. Like, what did Steve?
SPEAKER_01You must have some ego behind you. You got some balls. What did Steve Jobs do? Well, he said, okay.
SPEAKER_00He said, fine, right? But now was he in love with the with the with the dude, with the ego? Like, I mean, uh there had to be some ego here.
SPEAKER_01Paul Rand, come on. I think so. I think that Paul Rand had a little bit of ego, but also he had fucked you. He had fucked you. Fucked you, kind of fucked you, buddy. Right? Because he didn't have to do that. Yeah, no, you're right, you're right. And he was he's gonna take something and he knows full well that he's the expert. Even Steve Jobs knows he's the fucking expert.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know, I know. But you know what I'm saying? But he was so asshole ish. But I think maybe the ego part of this is why there's such a bad rep for all designers who have high standards. Right. I don't think necessarily having high standards is a bad thing, but maybe you know, the ego and letting the ego take over part. I think that might be the confusion. Yeah, that could that could very well be, yeah. Because I never tell anybody here, do it my way. No, you never do that. I don't think I've ever sometimes I'm like, well, okay, well, look, you know, our our mantra here, we do everything big and bold. Right. That's that's that's not what we've built as an agency. That's our brand. That's not Massimo Zefferino personal. Right. And a little bit an extension early days. And if you work here, you should know that. You kind of know the look, right? Well, it's true, right? This is what you sign up for. I know. So that's what I wonder. It's like, it's it's you know, how much um confusion, because there's definitely a difference between the two. Yes. Between high standards and between, you know, high ego. Yes. And I think there's a huge difference between those people. Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. Okay, so there is a difference. And and I wrote down some of this because I wanted to make sure, I I think for my own self that I wasn't necessarily doing this um out of ego this week, right? Because again, I I never want to come across as that guy, right? But, you know, I do I think the reason why I got out is I realize that my standards are pretty fucking high. Yes. Right? With what I want out, everything we do always looks professional. Sadly, some, you know, most of the time it looks corporate. That's our look. That's our market, that's our niche. But I mean, again, if you can look at something that we've done and be like, oh, it looks like a giant company, we've done our job. Yes. And that's why people hire us, right? So high standards, you know, I never ever, you know, attack the person, you know, this week. I've never said you suck, what don't you fucking know? Don't you remember our fucking conversation, you idiot? I save those loving words for my family. But um my kids, especially. Love you guys. Yeah. But no, no, no. But I mean, I I never criticize the person. Right. Right? It's always the work I'm challenging, right? And it's not even the aesthetics of it. Sometimes I'm be like, hey, you know, you maybe missed a good opportunity here, you know. Maybe this image is a little wrong. You know, what what what's the hierarchy here? I'm I'm reading the wrong part first. You know, this is often what it is. And I and I'm trying to trying to make them all teachable moments.
SPEAKER_01And that's the thing.
SPEAKER_00I've never been like, follow me, do it my way, right? Right. And so I'm always explaining why, yeah. Okay, I'm asking for these changes. I'm never like, make this blue, move this here, move. Sometimes I I can get like that. I'm not gonna lie. Well, but I think it's when I'm frustrated, when it's like the third time back, and I'm like, and you just want it, yeah, you you want it done. Yes. But again, if we went through this last month and the month before, this month's no different. I'm gonna say the same thing. So oftentimes, you know, at least the first time, I'm explaining why I want this changed. This should be like this, and this is why, right? As opposed to being like, you know, dude, just do it because I said so. Because there is there is a difference. So you have to be careful. And I can go from one to the other, but it's because the third time I'm saying the same fucking thing, I'm a little upset, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, high standards are are are always appreciate curiosity. And like we talked about, the first idea is never the right one. No. Okay. And I think that has to do with being high standard versus if this was all egocentric, I'd be closed-minded. Yeah. You know, I I'm okay if somebody wants to bring me an idea. I'm okay. And sometimes I'm like, hey, this is a great idea. Yeah, let's try tweaking it like this to even improve it even more. And that's the key. The collaborative exactly.
SPEAKER_01Because it's not just all about my idea. Yeah, that's right. An ego would not do the collaborative thing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, and again, another thing, I want everybody here to be awesome. Yes. Yes. Not just me. Yes. Okay. And I think that's a big thing because if I was ego-driven, everybody should be beneath me. Yes. But that's not the case. No. You know, like I said, I I th I think you've surpassed me. I think some people back there.
SPEAKER_01But it's good to see, it's good to see other people. Like, like I was watching one of our one of their girls out there, and she was doing this thing, and I was just like, damn. Look good. Because we were talking about it. It's like, maybe use this and you could kind of, you know, with with Photoshop nowadays, you can you can add extra stuff in there and just kind of try and see what this looks like. And damn it, she didn't do it, it looked awesome. See?
SPEAKER_00Perfect. Yeah. And that's it. You want, because I always want growth for everybody. Exactly. Right? This is not a personal thing, right? It has nothing to do with me. And in all fairness, if I have a bad idea or if something, uh, if I'm like, hey, try this, you know, and it's wrong or it looks bad, I'll be the first person to be like, whoa, I missed that one. You know, sorry about that. Okay, good call. Glad you didn't do that. And glad that was on it. But it's true, right? Where it's like, you know, if somebody's all about their ego, they're never fucking wrong.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And even if they are, they'll just they'll find a way to blame it on somebody else. You know, so again, and again, it's, you know, really, I'm very much focused on protecting the outcome. Okay. The the with the customer's outcome. I always want to make sure that what we're delivering is gonna perform the best it possibly goes. Where I think a lot of these egocentric people, they're more protecting themselves. Their ego. They want to make sure if I'm gonna deliver something that looks like this, and because it's it's it's my standard. And I don't know, dude. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01This and and the thing with that is like this is the right way, and the client doesn't have any choice in the world. Right. Right. Which, you know, that's just doesn't seem right. No, it doesn't at all. Even though it might be the right idea that you're doing. There's again, it's back to that collaboration thing. The collaboration thing is really important. You have to keep the client in the keep them happy, and our job is to bridge that gap of something that we really believe in and know will work and is effective, and something that has the client's idea in mind and what they're what they were like. Again, they will tell us what they want.
SPEAKER_00What they want, which is most of the time wrong. Yeah. Let's be honest. But based on what we do, we can make it right. We can make it right. And that's the whole point. And that's what we're committed to. Yeah. 100%. That's that that's what I always try to figure out. So that's why it's like that's why I came to this conclusion that it's like, you know, i i if they thought I was an asshole this week, which I again I don't think I was for the wrong reasons, okay. I think it was with the right intentions always. Yeah. Okay. And again, nothing I saw this week that I snapped about was something new. And it wasn't a new problem. It was the repeated stuff. And it and it came down to, dudes, we're here for the customer. Right. We're here for the best outcome. Yeah. Okay. So, like, come on, like, you can do this. Lose your mind. Think, yes. For God's sake. Yes. Think. Yes. Needless to say, I got a simple self-test. Okay. Because I went through I went through this. Because in case there's some people that are actually giving a shit and that that they're going through the same thing. And those are the ones that care. They're not the egocentric ones that are like, I've got the answers. I'm not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm not listening to this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, not even at this point of the podcast. They knew all the answers right from this. Yeah, yeah. Skip. I don't know if your boss an asshole because it's not me. I can't be the asshole. So honestly, if you're the good kind of difficult, okay, this is the whole thing. Just to figure out if you're the good kind of difficult, right? Again, are you actually fighting for the outcome? Yeah. Are you fighting for the ego? Okay. We've talked about ego and we've talked about outcome. Okay, that's a big difference. And that made me realize that it's like, look, this has nothing to do with, I'm not saying I like this looks and this better, make it look this way because the way Mosmo would want. No, I was like, this is gonna perform better. You know, I'm cutting copy, I'm moving around CTAs, I'm helping hierarchy, not because it's just aesthetically more pleasing. It's because the flow is there, the journey, the eye, and it's just it was so obvious. Right?
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Can can I explain why I want something to change? Can I explain why something is wrong? Okay, so again, if you can't explain it, it might be a little bit more taste, personal preference, ego. Then you could be, you know, like you know, hovering on that line of, you know, the difficulty, good kind of difficult versus the bad kind of difficult, right? But if you can explain your reasoning for it versus other than I just don't like it, you know, I think you're in the safe side. Yeah. Um, you know, am I willing to be proven wrong? I'm always willing to be proven wrong. I love being challenged. And and I mean, while nobody loves to be proven wrong, when you're proven wrong is when you learn. I'm a firm believer of this. Okay, yes. So again, that's the only way. So prove me wrong. Yeah. That's a great thing. That is great. Okay, I would love it. That is just great feedback exactly, right? I agree. Um, do I teach or do I criticize? Uh-huh. Okay, so that's another thing, right? I'm checking this list all week. I'm like, oh, wait a way. Was I an asshole or was I actually trying to, you know, was there a reason behind every one of my, you know, my changes, my requests, my my little hissy fits that I had this week? Okay. And and again, do people improve after working with me? Yes. That's always my goal here, right? I always want to push every single employee here to be better. I want them to grow for their own sake and for ours. Okay. And again, when they don't, when I'm seeing the same shit over and over, it's like there's no growth. Why are you here? If you're just here to just do the same shit and collect the same paycheck, this is not the place. Yeah. I want you to get better. So A, I don't have to keep fucking recorrecting the same shit week after week. But then B, so we can actually bill you more and give you better, bigger projects. Yes. Oh, dude. So I think, I think if you're able to answer all those, and I I don't think I think you're the good kind of difficult. Not necessarily the bad. Yes. So so it made me realize, honestly, this week that, you know, if you're actually listening to this this week and you're thinking my creative director is an asshole, my boss is an asshole, right? Okay, I get it. Okay. But before you kind of think that, okay, run it through these questions, right? Think to yourself, just double check and think, is it ego or is it the pressure of wanting to produce amazing work for the customer that converts? Right. Okay. If it's only about them and winning awards, that's ego. And hey, that's all we've had many, uh, many podcast episodes about that. Okay. We've talked about that. But if we're talking about they're they got distressed, they want to make something good for the customer, they want something that performs for the customer, you know, and it's about the customer first and the agency second.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_00It just could be that, you know, you need to look at it in a different way. Yes.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Absolutely. And and I I've never, I've never understood this. This is all about the customer. It is. It's all about it. Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't understand how the ego could even play come into play with this. But however. And we know it does. It does. It certainly does. But if you want to, if you want to stroke your ego, go do your own project. Yeah. Right. Exactly. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And there you go. That's fine. But the client is the boss. He's the boss, right? Exactly. I mean, like it or not, it is about the client. And your boss is your boss, either too, right? But he's the next in line. But he's the next in line to the client. Fair enough. And that's exactly right. And like we've talked about before, he's on the hook for it. And he's on the hook. He's got the employees, and he's the the the client has given your boss, the baby. Yeah. Here, look after my baby, please. Yeah, right? Make it grow. Make it grow. Yeah. And make it profitable. And make it profitable.
SPEAKER_00Solve the baby's problems.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Sweet.
SPEAKER_00Cool. Yeah. Wow. That was good. That was a handy. I'm glad. I feel better now. Do you need a hug too? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Hug Sean.
SPEAKER_00Don't touch me, you freak.
SPEAKER_01You freak.
SPEAKER_00I hope you guys got some out of this. I do. Um, again, it's, you know, there's so many different ways to look at this topic. And uh, and I was so far one way, now I'm so far the other way. So I've experienced it all. So um, this has been a fun week. So don't forget to leave comments. Let us know what you're thinking. Let us know if we're right or wrong. Actually, just the wrong. Okay. The right we know we're right. Let me know when we're wrong. Tell us about your ad directors. I'm curious. I want to know what other people's are experiencing too, right?
SPEAKER_01Cool to figure that out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Absolutely. Nice. Right, everybody. My name is Matsimo. My name is Sean. Stay creative. And stay angry.